BS: Ukraine

Subject: BS: Ukraine
From: Ed T
Date: 02 Mar 14 - 12:32 PM

http://www.infoplease.com/encyclopedia/world/ukraine-history.html
A bit of history. It seems like this area is in the news. Any perspectives- to share, or information to add ?

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: Stringsinger
Date: 02 Mar 14 - 12:35 PM

Two dictators fight a reactionary 30% pro-fascist populace, ending in a stalemate, using the wrong weapons which can't be resolved by military means.

The US had no moral authority here.

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Mar 14 - 12:52 PM

Ukraine is a sovereign state, and entitled to govern itself how it wills.
The elected president was so bad, the people through him out before his time.
Crimea is different.
It was part of Russia and when it was handed to Ukraine, Ukraine was part of Soviet Union.
Crimeans mostly relate to Russia, and Russia's Black Sea fleet is based there.
If the rest of Ukraine becomes Westernised, Crimea might reasonably rejoin Russia.

Russia has put troops into Crimea, but Russian Parliament allows them to enter Ukraine.
If they invade the rest of Ukraine, they will be resisted.
If Ukraine seeks to recapture Crimea, they will be resisted.

The West has threatened only sanctions, and military intervention is out of the question.

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: Ed T
Date: 02 Mar 14 - 12:53 PM

Cdn news related to Ukraine:

" developments in Ukraine have prompted Prime Minister Stephen Harper to strongly condemn Russian military intervention in the country while urging President Vladimir Putin to withdraw his troops immediately.

In a statement issued following a cabinet meeting held Saturday afternoon, Harper said Canada is recalling its ambassador from Moscow and pulling out of the G8 process being chaired by Russia.

At the same time, Canada is recognizing the legitimacy of the new, pro-Western Ukrainian government."

."With 1.2-million Canadians of Ukrainian descent, many of whom vote or lean to the Conservatives, it would be easy to be cynical about the Canadian government's solicitous concern for what happens in the homeland."



Cdn. news article 

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Mar 14 - 01:25 PM

Crimea is different. It was part of Russia and when it was handed to Ukraine, Ukraine was part of Soviet Union. Crimeans mostly relate to Russia,

You mean like Palestine was handed over to the Israelis, Keith?

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: bobad
Date: 02 Mar 14 - 01:30 PM

"You mean like Palestine was handed over to the Israelis, Keith?"

Er...not exactly - suggest you brush up on your history.

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: bobad
Date: 02 Mar 14 - 01:44 PM

In an article in last week's Russian Pravda, it was noted that if Ukraine was divided, then the status of the Crimean Peninsula – returned to Ukraine in 1954 by Nikita Kruschev, would be open to discussion, and that would include Turkey having a say in the future of Crimea.

The reference to this claim is the "Küçük Kaynarca" (Karlowitz I) signed 230 years ago. As per this agreement, signed by the Russian Tsarina Catherine II on April 19, 1783, the Crimean Peninsula was taken away from the dominion of the Ottomans and handed over to Russia. However, one of the most important provisions of this treaty was the debarment of independence for the Peninsula and outlawing its submission to a third party: Should any such attempt be made, then Crimea would automatically have to be returned to the sovereignty of Turkey.

When Ukraine appeared as an independent nation following the disintegration of the USSR in 1991, Turkey acquired the right to claim the Peninsula back based on the Treaty of Küçük Kaynarca; however, this was not brought up by the Turgut Ozal administration of the time. Turkey was content with advocating for the rights of the Tatar minority living on the Crimean Peninsula.

Turkey caught in the Russia-Crimea snowstorm

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: bobad
Date: 02 Mar 14 - 02:11 PM

We must be careful with this talk about the right wing, fascists and Nazis being behind the revolution. Even though all these elements are present in the Ukraine much of what we are hearing is Russian propaganda.

This from an excellent article in the New York Review of Books:

"From Moscow to London to New York, the Ukrainian revolution has been seen through a haze of propaganda. Russian leaders and the Russian press have insisted that Ukrainian protesters were right-wing extremists and then that their victory was a coup. Ukraine's president, Viktor Yanukovych, used the same clichés after a visit with the Russian president at Sochi. After his regime was overturned, he maintained he had been ousted by "right-wing thugs," a claim echoed by the armed men who seized control of airports and government buildings in the southern Ukrainian district of Crimea on Friday

Interestingly, the message from authoritarian regimes in Moscow and Kiev was not so different from some of what was written during the uprising in the English-speaking world, especially in publications of the far left and the far right. From Lyndon LaRouche's Executive Intelligence Review through Ron Paul's newsletter through The Nation and The Guardian, the story was essentially the same: little of the factual history of the protests, but instead a play on the idea of a nationalist, fascist, or even Nazi coup d'état.

In fact, it was a classic popular revolution. It began with an unmistakably reactionary regime. A leader sought to gather all power, political as well as financial, in his own hands. This leader came to power in democratic elections, to be sure, but then altered the system from within. For example, the leader had been a common criminal: a rapist and a thief. He found a judge who was willing to misplace documents related to his case. That judge then became the chief justice of the Supreme Court. There were no constitutional objections, subsequently, when the leader asserted ever more power for his presidency."

Ukraine: The Haze of Propaganda

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: bobad
Date: 02 Mar 14 - 03:20 PM

Everything you need to know about the Tatars--the biggest victims of Russia's new Crimean war.

The New Republic

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 02 Mar 14 - 04:03 PM

I expect that the Russians will occupy Crimea, and it will receive a government favored by the Russians and supported by much of the population. It may be annexed by the Russians, but I don't think immediately.

The Ukrainian forces will not fight; it is obvious who would be the loser. They will receive verbal support from the EU and NATO but no military aid.

Rather useless sanctions may be applied against Russia.
If you like Russian vodka, stock up; the U. S. and Canada may ban it as part of sanctions.

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 02 Mar 14 - 05:09 PM

If the Russians were to give up Crimea, then the USA would have warships there soon after!
The Russians should come up with their version of the Monroe Doctrine!

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Mar 14 - 05:11 PM

"much of what we are hearing is Russian propaganda." But rather more probably comes from the other direction. A lot more complicated and less clearcut than the media seems to be telling us.

Yakumovych and Putin both have some dictatorial qualities, but both were elected, as is of course quite common with dictators. Undoubtedly a lot of people in Kiev and the western part of Ukraine were hostile to him, and had voted against him, but there is no particular reason to assume that a majority of Ukrainians felt the same way.

The complicating thing in Ukraine is that it's really two countries, one in the west that has quite a lot in common with Poland, and where popular opinion was against Yakumovych, and preferred the idea of links with the EU, in the East of the country it is far more Russian in language and other ways, most especially in Crimea. And the Eastern part is actually larger, with a bigger population.

So when the Russians move troops into the Crimea, that isn't seen by the people there as an invasion, but a liberating force, in support of the legitimate government of Ukraine agains a coup which has overthrown it. And they appear to hope to be able to secede from Ukraine and rejoin Russia. And that is probably more or less what the people in
the rest of Ukraine think as well.

All a mess. And a very scary mess. I was watching a TV programme about the Great War, and how a seemingly peripheral terrorist assassination built up over a few weeks into an unstoppable rush into total war. And then turned over to the news...

My feeling here is that though some kind of conflict between Ukraine and Russia might indeed be on the cards, it's not going to escalate into anything more than harsh words and maybe economic sanctions so far as the rest of us are concerned.

But then that is probably what I would have thought back in 1914 in the wake of Sarajevo....

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: Ed T
Date: 02 Mar 14 - 06:17 PM

I suspect if France decided to send troops into Quebec- french-speaking Canada, (to protect french speaking and ethnicaly-connected to France citizens) if there was a similar internal political situation evolve with the government of Canada- combined with a desire of seperation among a percentage of citizens, it would stir up a "bees nest" of international concern. Few would likely conclude, "well it is ok, as these Canadians are ethnicaly French and like France, anyway".

Apples and oranages? Maybe yes, maybe no.

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Mar 14 - 06:29 PM

Correction - in a paragraph towards the end of my post I wrote "rest" where I should have written "east". Makes a difference.

So the paragraph should have read:

So when the Russians move troops into the Crimea, that isn't seen by the people there as an invasion, but a liberating force, in support of the legitimate government of Ukraine agains a coup which has overthrown it. And they appear to hope to be able to secede from Ukraine and rejoin Russia. And that is probably more or less what the people in
the east of Ukraine think as well.
.......................

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 02 Mar 14 - 06:45 PM

There was a very important item in the article referenced by the OP. To wit:

"...in 1997 it was agreed that Russia would be allowed to base its fleet at Sevastopol for 20 years."

Knowing that this agreement with Ukraine will expire soon, it appears that Mr. Putin saw his opportunity to seize Crimea when a new, weak government took over Ukraine. Why not? In his view, at least, the benefits far outweigh the possible costs.

Bev and Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Mar 14 - 06:56 PM

Yeah, them Rooshians got one helluva nerve intervening, but it's OK for the U.S. of A. to "intervene" in Afghanistan, Iraq, Etc. Etc Etc.....

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: Ed T
Date: 02 Mar 14 - 07:02 PM

I notice BBC just noted a top ukraine naval officer has defected to the Crimean side. I expect the military is made up of those fom each area.

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: Janie
Date: 02 Mar 14 - 08:13 PM

Appreciate your comments and perspective, McGrath. The ethnosociopolitical history of central, eastern and southeastern Europe and Eurasia is so ancient and so complex that it is hard for me to really understand.

I also don't understand what it means to be a semi-autonomous republic within a constitutional nation. Alien concept to me.

I don't like being so ignorant that I don't have enough information to form an opinion except from my own ethnocentric experience. No amount of lay reading of the long and complex history of central and eastern Europe has ever prepared me to have an informed opinion. It is a scary situation is all I know.

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 02 Mar 14 - 09:47 PM

Kick Russia out of the G8 and declare Putin a piece of shit! The Ukraine must show some balls as well and shut down Russia's pipelines! Europe can support their stand by conserving energy and finding non Russian energy supply! Canada can help by ramping up supplies to help Europe and this battle can be won without bloodshed!
Sadly however money rules and greed rates above either justice or compassion!

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Mar 14 - 10:18 PM

If Ukraine shut down the pipelines supplying Europe with oil from Russia I think they would be blotting their copybooks badly with the EU.

It's more likely the Russians might actually do that, in a tit-for-tat sanctions competition.

Never mind, we can get our oil from freedom- loving Saudi Arabia, where justice and compassion is so much in evidence.

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Mar 14 - 10:18 PM

If Ukraine shut down the pipelines supplying Europe with oil from Russia I think they would be blotting their copybooks badly with the EU.

It's more likely the Russians might actually do that, in a tit-for-tat sanctions competition.

Never mind, we can get our oil from freedom- loving Saudi Arabia, where justice and compassion is so much in evidence.

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 03 Mar 14 - 12:17 AM

McGrath, you seem to miss the irony of my post! Better to shed a bit of oil instead of blood, but of course greed rules supreme! As for Saudi Arabia's love of freedom I agree with you, but surely it is a red herring! Would you not place the loss of a bit of oil more important than a desire for justice and freedom? I do not believe that to be so! Injustice in either Russia or Saudi Arabia equals as a piece of shit that I would oppose! Putin on the other hand is a disgrace, but Canada can help with long term gain if EU can face up to a bit of short term pain! In Canada we have to get rid of arseholes running our country as well, and it will take time, but surely the world can be a better place!

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: michaelr
Date: 03 Mar 14 - 12:32 AM

To quote a great Canadian songwriter: "The trouble with normal is, it always gets worse."

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 Mar 14 - 01:34 AM

As posted before......When banks compete, people die. This isn't so much about one nationalistic country verses another, ...it is about a strategically located country, looking to switch banks! 'Our' bankers are not directly involved, and our government couldn't give a rat's ass about the Ukraine, except how to make Obama look like he is a player...which he is not. If it was our pipelines, if it were our satellite wanting to do business with another global banker, if they were rich in natural resources, including opium or coke, THEN we might intervene....Putin knows that Obama isn't going to do shit, except give a shallow speech....and there you have it.
The Republicans are going to re-act with 'patriotic' indignation, and say that Obama is perceived as weak, the Democrats don't want to spend money for the military, and will hail Obama's 'reserve' as 'wisdom'.....BOTH of them will, hide the banker's interests, but neither of them will tell you the real story.....
I just did.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 03 Mar 14 - 03:53 AM

McG: "much of what we are hearing is Russian propaganda." But rather more probably comes from the other direction. A lot more complicated and less clearcut than the media seems to be telling us.

I'll agree with the fact that there's propaganda from both directions....but not with your estimation of balance. The propaganda from the pro-Russian side has been much more evident than that from the people who were originally demonstrating, who were actually pretty disorganised when it came to getting their message across.

McG: Yakumovych and Putin both have some dictatorial qualities, but both were elected, as is of course quite common with dictators. Undoubtedly a lot of people in Kiev and the western part of Ukraine were hostile to him, and had voted against him, but there is no particular reason to assume that a majority of Ukrainians felt the same way.

Again, I think this is quite simplistic. Yanukovych (you should at least get his name right) was indeed elected, probably quite fairly at the time...and not along a strict east/west split, either. A (slight but nevertheless real) majority of Ukrainians, both Russian Ukrainian speaking were fed up of the way the "orange revolution" government were governing and decided on a change. Part of the change they voted for was that Yanukovych promised to improve ties with the EU, and end corruption. However, the corruption just shifted to his own mates and he caved into Russian pressure to repudiate the agreement with the EU.

McG: The complicating thing in Ukraine is that it's really two countries, one in the west that has quite a lot in common with Poland, and where popular opinion was against Yakumovych, and preferred the idea of links with the EU, in the East of the country it is far more Russian in language and other ways, most especially in Crimea. And the Eastern part is actually larger, with a bigger population.

The language division is a bit of a red-herring in itself....almost all Ukrainians speak Russian, both east and west. My Russian teacher's Ukrainian,from the west, and Russian's her native language....she doesn't speak Ukrainian at all. Culturally the west has more in common with Poland and the east with Russia, but it's not clear-cut. Popular opinion was pretty divided across the country for and against Yanukovych. It was his corruption, then his repudiation of the EU agreement that kicked off demonstrations, fairly small-scale at first. They intensified when he started bringing in repressive laws and also imported hundreds of Russian "advisors".

The eventual scale of the demonstrations grew to the size they did on the back on Yanukovych's actions. The portrayal of the demonstrators as right-wingers is just not a good picture. There were right-wingers involved, true, but the movement was actually broad-based across the political and linguistic spectrum. A very close relative was in Kiev for quite a while just before the main violence kicked off and was surprised on talking to people at just how broad-based their politics were, from neo-fascists through to lesbian socialists! The relative's expectation on going there had been to find the demonstrators mostly conservative/ right-wing.

McG: So when the Russians move troops into the Crimea, that isn't seen by the people there as an invasion, but a liberating force, in support of the legitimate government of Ukraine agains a coup which has overthrown it. And they appear to hope to be able to secede from Ukraine and rejoin Russia. And that is probably more or less what the people in the rest of Ukraine think as well.

I think you should say "some" of the people....probably largely drawn from the descendants of the ethnic Russians moved in by Stalin in 1944 when he deported the Crimean Tatars (original inhabitants) and killed most of them. Those who managed to return from the Gulags comprise about 12% of the region's population now, and they are terrified of a Russian takeover. I think that the 30% or so of "original" Ukrainians in the area, both Russian-speaking and Ukrainian-speaking, may also feel ambivalent. There are strong memories throughout Ukraine of the fact that it was the Ukrainian "kulaks" who suffered most during Stalin's starvation policy of the 1930s, with around 7 million Ukrainians being deliberately starved to death by Stalin.

In fact, Yanukovych was properly, and legally, impeached by the Ukrainian Parliament, which is the ACTUAL legitimate government of Ukrain and has, under law, the right to impeach the President. Yanukovych's bleating that he's *still* the legitimate President is just not true...no more than would Nixon have been able to claim he was still President of the USA if he'd been impeached rather than resigning.

The whole sitution there is much more complex than east/west! I could say more but I have to be a BIT circumspect as I'm due back in Russia for a 6 week stint in 3 weeks or so, assuming that by then there hasn't been wholesale visa cancellation!

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: GUEST,Roger Knowles
Date: 03 Mar 14 - 04:57 AM

When/if Scotland votes for independence, and the English military bases at Faslane (navy) and Lossiemouth (RAF) are threatened by Scottish extremists, then England will send in English forces ( RAF Regiment to Lossiemouth) and the Royal Marines to Faslane.
At this point will Putin, NATO and the USA will threaten financial and military action against England?
I'm looking up the chessboard by a few months......

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 03 Mar 14 - 06:00 AM

Depends whether rUK (not "England) has a lease agreement on the bases with Scotland, I should think.

The fact that Russia's 20 year leases on their Crimean bases run out in 3 years time and that a west-leaning government might not automatically renew them may have some small bearing on Russia's action. No-one, extremist or otherwise, was threatening their bases. No demos outside them, nothing.

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Mar 14 - 06:48 AM

Right wing nationalism
Ukrainian fascism
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: Ed T
Date: 03 Mar 14 - 06:56 AM

Ethnic groups 

Interesting information on the ethic make - up.

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: Ed T
Date: 03 Mar 14 - 07:15 AM

Just background on the region:

"Geographically, Turkey straddles the boundary dividing Europe and Asia. Sitting astride the Dardanelles and the Bosporus, Turkey controls the warm-water naval access of Russia, the Ukraine, and the Commonwealth of Independent States (CIS). Control of the straits between the Black and the Mediterranean Seas has long been a matter of keen interest to Russia, as well as other nations bordering the Black Sea. Historically, Russia has viewed such control as the sine qua non of its own sovereignty."

a href="http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/naval-arms-control-1936.htm">Montreux Convention 

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Mar 14 - 08:37 AM

Wonder if any of this will make a difference to Britain's arms sales policy - doubt it?

"The scale and detail of the deals emerged after a forensic investigation by a committee of MPs, who also discovered that strategically controlled items have been sent to Iran, China, Sri Lanka, Russia, Belarus and Zimbabwe – all of which feature prominently on the Foreign Office's list of states with worrying civil rights records."
Arms sales to Russia
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 03 Mar 14 - 11:10 AM

The conflict is about the influence of the Putin regime, scarcely about ethnicity.

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Mar 14 - 12:48 PM

I don't think the only outside influence stirring things up is Putin. And what gets stirred up in such circumstances tend to involve ethnicity.

Thanks Rob Naylor for giving us some more in-depth stuff. It's all clearly a very complicated and ambiguous situation. The last thing that is needed is clumsy bluster from Foreign politicians.

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: Ed T
Date: 03 Mar 14 - 12:53 PM

I just got extra parts for my Lada, downed the last of my ruski-vodka and sold all my rubles (going rate is a wheebarrow load for a "yankee dollah").

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 03 Mar 14 - 01:42 PM

Does not concern the 'Yankee dollah,' but the euro-

Putin wants the Ukraine in the Russian orbit; he was pushing a regime under Yankovich that was favorable to strong ties with Russia, but the revolt and moves toward the EU decided him to annex the Crimea, an economically important autonomous parliamentary republic within Ukraine.
58% of the population is ethnic Russian. Industrial plants deal with chemical production, mechanical work and petroleum. Farming is important (60 percent of the industry market).

Russia has important naval installations in Crimea.

All the Ukraine can do is capitulate, allowing Russia to take control of Crimea.
The EU and NATO members may impose some sanctions, but their efforts will be useless to change Putin's thrust.

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: bobad
Date: 03 Mar 14 - 02:03 PM

Russia has given Ukraine's military in Crimea a deadline to surrender or "face storm," Ukrainian defense sources say, as deputies in the Russian lower house prepared a bill to annex Crimea.

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 Mar 14 - 02:56 PM

Q, You post is dead on...especially, "Does not concern the 'Yankee dollah,' but the euro-"......different banking systems! (Just like when the U.S. invaded Iraq, because Iraq was making moves to going to the Euro..

Q: "Putin wants the Ukraine in the Russian orbit; he was pushing a regime under Yankovich that was favorable to strong ties with Russia, but the revolt and moves toward the EU decided him to annex the Crimea, an economically important autonomous parliamentary republic within Ukraine"

RIGHT, again!...besides that, the Crimea has the only other Russian warm water port, other than the one in Syria...which you covered, Q: "Russia has important naval installations in Crimea."

Q: "The EU and NATO members may impose some sanctions, but their efforts will be useless to change Putin's thrust."

Right....Governments are not the ones making these decisions ...companies (corporations/banksters) DO!

The rest is just excuses for propaganda purposes.
(Q, read my last post, before this one).

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Mar 14 - 03:45 PM

Forbes- Business

Russian-Ukrainian Conflict Spilling Beyond Borders And Into Natural Gas Markets

Natural Gas

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 Mar 14 - 03:54 PM

One of the unnamed 'Guests': "Russian-Ukrainian Conflict Spilling Beyond Borders And Into Natural Gas Markets"

Key words are 'Beyond Borders And Into Natural Gas MARKETS'.......

This will eventually be 'solved' financially....if it can't, or doesn't, then it will get blown wide open.....UNTIL it will be...(BUT, you never know, there are naive 'patriots' still out there!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Mar 14 - 05:32 PM

"...in 1997 it was agreed that Russia would be allowed to base its fleet at Sevastopol for 20 years."

Time to ring in George Santayana- for how many centuries has Russia been set on having a "warm water port"........ this recent business comes as a surprise to someone? This goes WAY beyond Putin.

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: bobad
Date: 03 Mar 14 - 07:42 PM

It turns out that invading your neighbour isn't too good for your economy - the Russian stock market is down 12%.

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Mar 14 - 07:51 PM

That never stops people doing it. Look at the record of the USA in Latin America.

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Mar 14 - 08:05 PM

Look at the record of the USA in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Mar 14 - 08:13 PM

"It turns out that invading your neighbour isn't too good for your economy"

It never seemed to hurt the Vikings, invading Ireland, and elsewhere:)

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: Janie
Date: 03 Mar 14 - 10:11 PM

Thank you, Rob Naylor.

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 Mar 14 - 11:25 PM

bobad: "It turns out that invading your neighbour isn't too good for your economy....."

Who's 'your'?....the global bankers?...or the individual country's?...keep in mind, corporations and banks have different borders....and they'll 'play the national interests' against each others, within their own borders, if they can capitalize on it.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 04:23 AM

I'm not surprised to see Russia moving to defend it's not insignificant interests in Crimea (it is after all the kind of action that any major power would attempt - in some way), not least it's warm water port. The fact that Crimean's generally support Russia and that Crimea was formerly a part of Russia, is certainly fortunate for Russia for diplomatic reasons. As such, hopefully unless the West intervene before the referendum there (slated for 30th March I believe), things could stay peaceful until Russia secures it's interests there.

The US position on this is however breathtakingly hypocritical, when the US (including Obama's stated position "the US will defend it's interests" on the potential war in Syria just recently) repeatedly initiate military actions to 'defend their interests' abroad - usually many miles abroad, though it's own back door has seen plenty of aggressive measures "protecting US interests" too.

Kerry in particular is a joke: ""You just don't in the 21st century behave in 19th century fashion by invading another country on completely trumped up pre-text," Kerry told the CBS program "Face the Nation."

Whu? Really you'd think he remembered the lies the West conspired in concocting about WMD in Iraq!

Someone flagged this up on CiF, I thought some folk here might find either of interest / or complete nonsense (take your pick), it's quite provocative:

What Neocons Want From Ukraine Crisis

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: Stringsinger
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 08:55 AM

The tragedy of the Ukraine is that the rebels who rightly abhor Yanocovich have no legitimate plan of action to replace him, running the risk of finding another one just like him, a similar problem for Egypt or any revolutionary movement that takes place, remembering that the French Revolution wound up with Napoleon at the helm.

The sick nationalism of the Nazis have infected some of the Ukrainian rebels making it difficult for the world community to totally support their grievances.

As for Putin, he is emerging as another dictator, a replacement for Communism as a continuing Tsar, who aligns with Yanocovich in this capacity and whose power incites the envy of none other than Kim Jung Un.

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 08:59 AM

The tragedy of the Ukraine is that the rebels who rightly abhor Yanocovich have no legitimate plan of action to replace him

Elections were planned for May.

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 09:14 AM

Great letter in The Guardian this morning:

John Kerry accuses the Russians of acting "in 19th-century fashion by invading another country on a completely trumped-up pretext". This should end all debate on Americans' understanding of irony.