Help: Velvet Band Age

Subject: Velvet Band Age
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 17 Nov 99 - 02:00 PM

There's a popular Irish Song called The Black Velvet Band. There's an American song (similar theme, different tune and lyrics) called Blue Velvet Band. Can any of you folklorists provide ant information about early publication dates for each? I have a 1920's publication of Blue Velvet Band; I can't find any published version of Black Velvet Band prior to 1960 or so.

Subject: RE: Help: Velvet Band Age
From: John Moulden
Date: 17 Nov 99 - 02:47 PM

Below is a clip from Steve Roud's Song Index version 3+. This and his index of Broadsides each contain almost 100,000 entries each though some broadside entries are duplicated. Anyone interested in information may contact me at [e-mail]

The ballad sheets probably vary in date of printing from 1830 - 1870 and some later.

BLACK VELVET BAND; ; ; ; Broadside printer's catalogue; T. Birt's Catalogue of Songs (No.1a) No.29; ; ; ; ; ; Reference only; 920722; 2146; ; ; ; ; ; [Matched by title only]

BLACK VELVET BAND; ; ; In a neat little town they call Belfast; Book; Edwards, Overlander Songbook pp.6-8; ; Patterson, Bob; Australia : Queensland : Cairns; 1968 (13 Jun); Edwards, Ron; Text / Music; 931228; 2146; ; ; ; ; ;

BLACK VELVET BAND; ; ; ; Broadside catalogue; Crampton Coll Vol.4, No.17 (Research Pubns. Index); ; ; ; ; ; Reference only; 931101; 2146; ; ; Such (London); Crampton Coll (BL); ; [Matched by title only]

BLACK VELVET BAND; ; ; In a neat little town they call Belfast; Book; Edwards, Great Australian Folk Songs (1991) pp.28-29; ; Patterson, Bob; Australia : Queensland : Cairns; 1968 (13 Jun); Edwards, Ron; Text / Music; 970207; 2146; ; ; ; ; ;

BLACK VELVET BAND; ; ; To go in a smack down to Barking; Broadside; Madden Collection (London Printers 6) [VWML mfilm No.79] Item no.382; ; ; ; ; ; Text only; 970315; 2146; ; ; Birt (London); Madden Coll. (Cambridge Univ. Lib.); ; Sheet title: The Sportsman

BLACK VELVET BAND, THE; ; ; 'Twas in the city of London; Book; Meredith & Anderson, Folksongs of Australia 1 pp.145-146; ; Willis, Toby; Australia : Western Australia; ; Hood, Alec; Text / Music; 940201; 2146; ; ; ; ; ;

BLACK VELVET BAND, THE; ; ; Judge he passed sentence next morning, The; Book; Meredith & Anderson, Folksongs of Australia 1 pp.192-193; ; Sloane, Sally; Australia : New South Wales : Lithgow; ; Meredith, John; Text (1v) / Music; 940201; 2146; ; ; ; ; ;

BLACK VELVET BAND, THE; ; ; Oh, her eyes were like two shining diamonds; Book; Meredith & Anderson, Folksongs of Australia 1 pp.49-50; ; Byrnes, Mary; Australia : New South Wales : Sydney; 1954; Meredith, John; Text / Music; 940201; 2146; ; ; ; ; ;

BLACK VELVET BAND, THE; ; ; ; Broadside catalogue; Crampton Coll Vol.7, No.423 (Research Pubns. Index); ; ; ; ; ; Reference only; 931101; 2146; ; ; Disley (London); Crampton Coll (BL); ; [Matched by title only]

BLACK VELVET BAND, THE; ; ; To go in a smack down at Barking, where a boy as apprentice was bound; Broadside catalogue; Baring-Gould Coll Vol.1.1, No.184 (Research Pubns. Index); ; ; ; ; ; Reference only; 931101; 2146; ; ; ; Baring-Gould Coll (BL); ;

BLACK VELVET BAND, THE; ; ; To go in a smack down to Barking; Index to MS collection; Alfred Williams MS No.Mi.535 (Bathe/Clissold Index); ; ; ; ; Williams, Alfred; Reference only; 930727; 2146; ; ; ; ; ; =Pkt.30

BLACK VELVET BAND, THE; ; ; In Belfast's famous city; Book; Kennedy, Folksongs of Britain & Ireland p.695; ; Cameron, Bill; England : Scilly Isles : St. Mary's; 1956; Kennedy, Peter; Text / Music; 930726; 2146; ; ; ; ; ;

BLACK VELVET BAND, THE; ; ; ; Broadside printer's catalogue; W.S. Fortey's Ballad Catalogue, Col.5; ; ; ; ; ; Reference only; 920821; 2146; ; ; Fortey (London); ; ; [Matched by title only]

BLACK VELVET BAND, THE; ; ; As I went out walking one evening; Sound recording; Edith Fowke Coll. (FO 51); ; McCallum, Gorge; Canada : Ontario : Grafton; 1961 (Mar); Fowke, Edith; ; 940605; 2146; ; ; ; ; ;

BLACK VELVET BAND, THE; ; ; To go in a smack down Barking, where a boy as apprentice I was bound; Broadside catalogue; Baring-Gould Coll Vol.5, No.166 (Research Pubns. Index); ; ; ; ; ; Reference only; 931101; 2146; ; ; ; Baring-Gould Coll (BL); ;

BLACK VELVET BAND, THE; ; ; Oh as I strayed out one morning; Sound recording; BBC recording 18578; ; Doran, Paddy; N. Ireland : Belfast; 1952 (24 Jul); Kennedy, Peter / Sean O'Boyle; ; 970213; 2146; ; ; ; ; ;

BLACK VELVET BAND, THE; ; ; I was born in the fair town of London; Sound recording; Musical Traditions MT CD 303 ('Plenty of Thyme'); ; Poacher, Cyril; England : Suffolk : Blaxhall; 1974 (4 Aug); Engle, Tony; ; 990921; 2146; ; ; ; ; ;

BLACK VELVET BAND, THE; ; ; To go in a smack down to Barking, where a boy as apprentice was bound; Broadside; Madden Collection 21 (Country Printers 6) [VWML mfilm No.88) Item no.93; ; ; ; ; ; Text only; 980327; 2146; ; ; Pratt (Birmingham); Madden Collection (Cambridge Univ. Lib); ;

BLACK VELVET BAND, THE; ; Tars of the Blanch; I'll go in a smack down at Barking, where a boy as apprentice was bound; Broadside; Madden Collection (London Printers 5) [VWML mfilm No.78] Item no.444; ; ; ; ; ; Text only; 970304; 2146; ; ; Ryle (London); Madden Coll. (Cambridge Univ. Lib.); ; [First line printed as -I'O go in...-]

BLACK VELVET BAND, THE; ; ; To go in a smack down to Barking, where I a boy as apprentice was bound; Broadside; Madden Collection (London Printers 6) [VWML mfilm No.79] Item no.214; ; ; ; ; ; Text only; 970315; 2146; ; ; Birt (London); Madden Coll. (Cambridge Univ. Lib.); ;

BLACK VELVET BAND, THE; ; ; To go in a smack down in Barking; Broadside; Madden Collection (London Printers 8) [VWML mfilm No.81] Item no.265; ; ; ; ; ; Text only; 971112; 2146; ; ; Edwards (London); Madden Coll. (Cambridge Univ. Lib.); ;

BLACK VELVET BAND, THE; ; ; 'Twas in the city of London; Book; Anderson, Story of Australian Folksong (3rd edn., 1970) pp.14-16; ; ; Australia : W. Australia; ; Hood, Alec; Text / Music; 960926; 2146; ; ; ; ; ;

BLACK VELVET BAND, THE; ; ; 'Twas in the city of London; Book; Anderson, Colonial Ballads (1962) p.12; ; ; Australia : W. Australia; ; Hood, Alec; Text / Music; 960926; 2146; ; ; ; ; ;

BLACK VELVET BAND, THE; ; ; In Belfast was a famous city and a prentice boy I was bound; Sound recording; Folktracks 60-029 ('Black Velvet Band'); ; Cameron, Bill; England : Cornwall : Scilly Isles; ; Kennedy, Peter; ; 950816; 2146; ; ; ; ; ;

BLACK VELVET BAND, THE; ; ; I was born in the fair town of London; Sound recording; Topic 12TS 252; ; Poacher, Cyril; England : Suffolk : Blaxhall; 1974; Engle, Tony; ; 960723; 2146; ; ; ; ; ;

Tab characters replaced with semicolons; double spacing added between paragraphs, for clarity. --JoeClone, 1-Dec-02.

Subject: RE: Help: Velvet Band Age
From: John Moulden
Date: 17 Nov 99 - 02:49 PM

Sorry, as usual, the paste-in didn't sustain its formatting.

Subject: RE: Help: Velvet Band Age
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 17 Nov 99 - 06:42 PM

John- Thanx much.

Subject: RE: Help: Velvet Band Age
From: Stewie
Date: 17 Nov 99 - 09:19 PM

Dick,

The last song that Bill Monroe recorded for Columbia was 'The Girl in the Blue Velvet Band' on 22 October 1949. This spawned numerous bluegrass recordings of the song in the following decades. One of the most recent that I've heard is Pete Rowan and Jerry Douglas on their 'Yonder' album for Sugar Hill, although it is treated there as a slow ballad, and they attribute it to 'traditional'!

The song was a collaborative effort between the legendary country steel guitarist, Cliff Carlisle, and Acuff-Rose's Mel Foree who collaborated with with numerous country songwriters, including Charlie Monroe and Hank Williams. Douglas Green says that this 'garbled tale of robbery and deceit' was supposedly based on an actual incident. According to Linnell Gentry in his 'A History and Encyclopedia of Country, Western and Gospel Music', Carlisle recorded it for Victor and it was one of his most popular recordings. Unfortunately, Gentry gives no date and the song does not appear on the recent Arhoolie compilation of Carlisle's work. I would say that your 1920s date may be suspect because, although Carlisle was entertaining in tent shows etc in the late 1920s, his recording debut was 1930 for the Gennett and Champion labels. It was not until 1939 that he recorded another song that Monroe also turned into a bluegrass standard - 'Little Footsteps in the Snow'. Whilst Tony Russell's early country music discography remains stillborn, it may be difficult to track down the date for Carlisle's recording, but I will keep my eye open for you.

Regards, Stewie.

Subject: RE: Help: Velvet Band Age
From: Dale Rose
Date: 17 Nov 99 - 09:40 PM

At Hank Snow's second recording session, November 6-9, 1937, he recorded a song called The Blue Velvet Band. The following paragraph is taken from Charles K. Wolfe's notes to the Bear Family Box of Hank's Early Canadian releases.

. . .the hit of the session was destined to be The Blue Velvet Band. "The song title was taken from an old song called 'The Girl In The Blue Velvet Band'" said Hank. "I changed the story and even changed the melody too." The older song had been recorded in 1934 by Cliff and Bill Carlisle, and was one of the more popular songs of the year; it in turn dated from an old British song called The Black Velvet Band that had appeared in print as far back as the 1870's. Carlisle's original song was a grim, Dashiell-Hammet-like account of a boy who is framed for theft by a girl with her hair tied in a blue velvet band; none of that survived in Hank's version, except the detail of the blue velvet band. Hank's song is a classic love lament, replete with a Rodgers-like yodel.

He recorded an answer song in 1941. Also, if CKW says 1934 was the first recording, I'd be inclined to believe him.

Subject: Lyr Add: THE BLUE VELVET BAND (from Hank Snow)
From: Dale Rose
Date: 18 Nov 99 - 10:09 AM

Even though it is only a derivative of the earlier songs, I figured I would go ahead and post Hank Snow's song, just to help complete the process. I thought it was interesting that he did not claim authorship. Oh, another thought ~~ while the Carlisles did not record their song until 1934, I would think that they could well have written it in the 20s.

THE BLUE VELVET BAND
(Public Domain)
As recorded by Hank Snow, November 1937

If you listen a story I'll tell you,
Of a girl who once lived in this land;
A girl who once was my sweetheart,
She was known as The Blue Velvet Band.

On her cheeks was the first flush of nature,
Her beauty, it seemed to expand,
Her hair hung down in long tresses,
Tied back with a blue velvet band.

I can still see those tears as we parted,
Of my heart broken Blue Velvet Band;
As I left her I told her I'd never
Come back to my old home again.

Five years in the wide open spaces
Was all that my poor heart could stand,
Every night as I lay on my pillow,
I would dream of my Blue Velvet Band.

Then one night as I lay down dreaming
Of home and poor mother and dad,
Like a flash by my bedside was standing
The form of my Blue Velvet Band.

I started next day for my darling,
Just to go back and make her my bride;
But as I reached the old country depot,
They told me my sweetheart had died.

They laid her to rest in the churchyard,
Midst the sweet summer flowers of the land;
On her finger the ring that I bought her,
On her head was a blue velvet band.

Subject: RE: Help: Velvet Band Age
From: GUEST,Philippa
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 02:11 PM

I must hear the Hank Snow version sometime. Is the tune similar to the one most associated with the Black Velvet Band.

although I don't really like the idea of tribute bands, I did go to hear Chris Kavanagh's Luke Kelly tribute. I hope Chris wasn't copying Luke when he introduced the Black Velvet Band saying it was written by Ewan MacColl.

Subject: RE: Help: Velvet Band Age
From: BB
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 03:08 PM

Certainly the famed East Anglian singer Harry Cox sang it - yet most people seem to think of it as Irish. Thanks, John M., for the list which seems to give the lie to that. It would be interesting to know, would it not, where the first broadside of it originated?

Barbara

Subject: RE: Help: Velvet Band Age
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 06:55 PM

London.

For full details, see many other discussions on the same subject (links above), most of which are much more recent than this old, forgotten thread that Philippa has dragged back from the merciful oblivion of the past for reasons that aren't immediately obvious.

Subject: RE: Help: Velvet Band Age
From: Mo the caller
Date: 12 Sep 06 - 06:45 PM

I would have thought velet was rather extravigant for a bandage

Subject: RE: Help: Velvet Band Age
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 12 Sep 06 - 07:19 PM

What means 'velet'?

Subject: RE: Help: Velvet Band Age
From: Mo the caller
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 04:10 AM

velvet, sorry

Subject: RE: Help: Velvet Band Age
From: Lighter
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 12:50 PM

In the version sung anachronistically in the '60s film "The Adventures of Moll Flanders," her eyes "they shone like emeralds."

That's because Kim Novak had green eyes. Or the other eyes were under copyright.

Subject: RE: Help: Velvet Band Age
From: greg stephens
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 01:12 PM

The Irishness of the song was established by the Dubliners, whose version was an almighty hit. 99.99999% of people now familiar with the song will only know the Dubliners version.