Fretboard Fun

Subject: Fretboard Fun
From: Neil Lowe
Date: 17 Nov 99 - 08:57 PM

Any particular guitar chord can be played in a number of locations along the neck, called "positions." On my accoustic there are four positions for each chord, practically speaking. I always had problems remembering where these positions were, so I devised a method to help me get to the next position for a chord, regardless of the chord position I was in at the time. Here's what I came up with. I wanted to throw it out here on the forum for comments, suggestions, corrections, alternative methods for remembering the positions, zaniness, thread-drift, whatever.

Note: This thread received impetus from Little Neophyte's "Difficult Chord Progressions" thread and Songster Bob's post to that thread.

Also, this little device only allows for major chords: I figured once I got to the next position I'd then worry about the fingering for the minor, dominant 7th or whatever.

First, I noted there were three basic fingerings for the major chords, based on the chords E, A, and D in first position (the position with which I and most beginning guitarists are most familiar).

Using E as an example, I saw that to get to E second position, I had to move the whole party up the neck four frets, make a barre and play the D fingering above the bar (Thanks, Songster Bob, for nailing the terminology for me). To get to E third position, I had to move up the neck three more frets, make the barre and play the A fingering above the barre. To get to E fourth position, I had to move up five more frets and play the E fingering again.

I then did the same thing with A first position. To get to A second position, I moved up five frets, made the barre and played E above the bar. To get to A third position, I moved up four frets and played D above the barre. A fourth position was made by moving up the neck three more frets, making the barre and playing the A fingering again above the barre.

Finally, I did this with D in first position. To get to D second position, I moved up three frets, made the barre, and played A above the barre. D third position was got by moving up five frets and playing E above the barre. D fourth position was made by moving up four frets and again playing D above the barre.

What I distilled from all this was three rules:

1)If the chord you're playing is based on the E fingering, to get to the next position, move up four frets, make the barre and play D above the barre.

2)if the chord you're playing is based on a D fingering, the next position is found by moving the chord up three frets, making the barre and playing the A fingering above the barre.

3)If the chord is based on an A fingering, move the chord up the neck five frets, make the barre and play the E fingering above the barre, for the next position.

On electric guitars with longer necks, the pattern repeats after the fourth position of the chord.

Neil Lowe

Subject: RE: Fretboard Fun
From: Neil Lowe
Date: 17 Nov 99 - 09:00 PM

damn....missed a close bold tag. sorry.....

Subject: RE: Fretboard Fun
From: Bill cameron
Date: 17 Nov 99 - 09:24 PM

Neil, that was intense.

;>=

You're quite correct as far as finding your positions goes, but you don't have to barre so much, ya know--your fingers will thank you ever so much if you learn those inversions as four-strings-played chords, and there are of course lots more ways to play them!

Four-string chords with no open strings are of course completely mobile up and down the neck, and that's really handy.

I really like Arnie Berles "Book Of Modern Chords"--showed me some swell ways to do stuff that I never would have come up with intuitively.

Bill

Subject: RE: Fretboard Fun
From: Neil Lowe
Date: 17 Nov 99 - 10:07 PM

yeah, my hand muscles get tired quickly, but I'm trying to toughen them up....so I barre as much as I can. here are times, though, when the four and five string inversions sound better than the barre chords....

Neil

Subject: RE: Fretboard Fun
From:
Date: 18 Nov 99 - 01:12 AM

Nice going Neil :0) Played fer ever and never did figure that out before, usualy don't look at the fretboard but now I am doing that again. Just had a thought there must be some relation between the tuning of the strings and the different positions? I guess what you are saying is the notes off the littlest string MY FIRST - begin again on fret 5 of the second littlest string MY SECOND, and then on the fourth of the next and so on. Hmmmm.

I used go through em like this, D maj off the Nut, then off fret 5 -3 finger thumb over back of neck- then off I think fret 10 -looks like an F chord-.

In D there are a bunch of Modal chords as well all over the place - wish Art or Rick would Post here. I dont know where to begin on this one, there are there believe me - fiddle around and have fun.

Subject: RE: Fretboard Fun
From: ddw
Date: 18 Nov 99 - 01:31 AM

Neil, Bill's right. There are a lot of other ways to play chords that are much faster and easier. Try making a B7 (the standard way you would in an E progression) and then sliding it up the neck, damping the B string with the pad of your ring finger or letting it ring in chords that have a B note. That, plus your barred E configuration will let y ou play with lots of interesting high-tone melodies.

You can do the same thing with a C configuration, tho' if y ou do it with the B7 it's easier. In C config., just play your standard 5-note C, add a G note on the treble E sting, and move it up the neck, again damping the D string when it's not needed.

You can also slide a "long" A up the neck effectively. Just play the first four strings with your index finger, then pick up the 1st string at the 5th fret — the 'long' A. Now, slide that up the neck and you've got two fingers left over (ring and middle) to play runs, melody or whatever.

And try a drop-D tuning and run the standard (1st) D configuration up the neck. It'll do wonderful things for you.

good picking,

david

Subject: RE: Fretboard Fun
From: ddw
Date: 18 Nov 99 - 01:36 AM

oops, in the long-A description I meant to say "play the first four strings with your index finger at the second fret, then pick up ...."

david

Subject: RE: Fretboard Fun
From: Neil Lowe
Date: 18 Nov 99 - 07:13 AM

ddw--

Thanks for the tips...I have fooled around with all those fingerings up and down the neck...I like sliding the B7 up to get an E7 with open B string, still playing all six strings -- for bluesy stuff. I also use the C fingering occasionally and slide it up two frets with my pinky on the first string 5th fret to play a D chord...I still like to play the open G string with that chord, though, which makes it a Dsus4, I think. I like the sound of that half step interval between the F# and G on strings right next to each other.

I haven't fooled around with dropped D tuning in a long time...I'll have to try out your suggestion.

Neil

Subject: RE: Fretboard Fun
From: Lady McMoo
Date: 18 Nov 99 - 09:20 AM

When I started playing guitar about 35 years ago I assiduously learnt all the chords in their different positions. Then I got into playing in a load of different open tunings. Now I know lots of chords in these various tunings and where they all fit with any particular song or tune but I couldn't for the life of you tell anyone what chord I'm playing any more! Anyone else have that problem? I've tried the excellent NutChord programme but that doesn't recognise all of the various diminished minor and modal chords and just confused me even more! Perhaps it's just better to live in ignorance!

mcmoo

Subject: RE: Fretboard Fun
From: Willie-O
Date: 18 Nov 99 - 09:46 AM

Yup. Wasn't it a banjo player that replied to the question:

"There ain't no chords. You just play it!"

It's hard to jam with people who don't have the same background and ear training. You end up having to follow them, cause they can't figure out what you're doing at all--even in standard, but especially in DADGAD etc.

Fact is, a lot of the time, I'm not playing a chord--I'm i between chords, and it's hard to have a split personality enough to shout out the chords that I'm not actually playing but that another guitarist _could_ be playing--especially when there are several possibilities, as well as various wrong ones. Of course, my personality has all kinds of defects, but that just doesn't happen to be one of them.

Bill

Subject: RE: Fretboard Fun
From: Margo
Date: 18 Nov 99 - 04:41 PM

Um, did I miss something? What do you mean when referring to "nut"chord? I'm really wondering!

Subject: RE: Fretboard Fun
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 18 Nov 99 - 05:37 PM

You are never going to really understand what you are doing chord wise, until you know the names of the notes in the chords that you are playing--and then you get to know what intervals you are playing--

Of course. guitar is not like piano where the same notes appear under the same keys,over and over, and of course, a lot of guitar music is just written with the chord name(and, often, it is the wrong chord) so it is no help at all, if you are trying to figure out what you are doing.

When you play six note chords, you are actually playing extra notes that you don't need to get the chord sound-- Each of those chord positions is a different inversion, which means that it gives you different notes on the bottom and top of the chord, so when you play for instance, the E chord in each of the different positions, you actually create a melodic movement in the both the bass and the treble ranges.

Subject: RE: Fretboard Fun
From: Neil Lowe
Date: 19 Nov 99 - 08:18 AM

Margo...

The saddle for the strings at the end of the neck where the strings attach to the tuning pegs is called the "nut." Chords played at or close to the nut are called "nut chords." In other words, the first position chords.

Neil

Subject: RE: Fretboard Fun
From: Easy Rider
Date: 19 Nov 99 - 12:07 PM

Figuring this progression out for yourself is quite an accomplishment, but it is nothing new.

The actual progression is C-A-G-E-D. If you play a C chord, in the first position, the next C chord, up the fretboard, is an A chord shape, in the fifth position, at the fifth fret. The next C chord, up the fretboard, is a G chord shape, moved further up the fretboard, Etc. The progression is circular. You can start, in the first position, with any of the five chord shapes, and when you get to the D shape, the next shape is C. It can be very useful to learn how to move from chord to chord up and down the fretboard easily, but it is a fingerbreaker.

The next step, after learning the chords, is to learn to play scales, in each of the five chord shapes. Then you can solo anywhere on the fretboard.

There are two good books on this subject. One is "Fretboard Logic", and the other is "Scales Over Chords". I'm sorry, I don't know the authors.

Subject: RE: Fretboard Fun
From: Neil Lowe
Date: 19 Nov 99 - 12:33 PM

hmmmm..I'm confused Easy Rider...

I see where your second position chord for C comes from - with the A shape - but the third position with the G shape....

the next C I can visualize after the A shape is the C with the barre at the eighth fret and it looks like an E chord to me above the barre.

Did I skip one?

Subject: RE: Fretboard Fun
From: Easy Rider
Date: 19 Nov 99 - 12:42 PM

How many frets up do you have to move a G, till it becomes a C?

G-G#-A-A#-B-C = five. That means 6th string,8th fret, 5th string 7th fret and 1st string, 8th fret. the triad, for a C chord is C - E - G, so you have one open string to play, if you don't want to barre.

Subject: RE: Fretboard Fun
From: Neil Lowe
Date: 19 Nov 99 - 02:29 PM

Got it...it just takes me a while sometimes. Thanks for mentioning Fretboard Logic and Scales Over Chords.

Neil

Subject: RE: Fretboard Fun
From: Neil Lowe
Date: 19 Nov 99 - 02:36 PM

Let's try Fretboard Logic again.

Subject: RE: Fretboard Fun
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 19 Nov 99 - 02:46 PM

The A fingering is in third position(not second) for the C chord--that is, the index finger bars across the third fret and you cover the D-G-B strings with one or two fingers on the fifth fret (giving you a G-C-e triad, which is a C chord, with G and C bass notes--(The two low strings on the third fret)

If you use your index finger to cover the same G-C-e triad on the fifth fret, you can cover the seventh Fret low E string with your pinky and the sixth Fret A String with you index finger and it will give you a C chord with the C note on the bottom--in fact, it gives you the full triad at the bottom--C-E-G, on the E, A, and D strings. (This is confusing, I know--but if you think about it for a while, you'll get it)

There is some question as whether to consider the D and the G patterns separate chord positions, or as just variations--

The D chord fingering really has the same pattern on the fretboard as the C chord fingering, it is just moved up from open position to second position, so you use a different finger configuration to play it--the G chord uses the same triad as the A, that is the the first inversion E-A-C#, but it is moved down from second position(on the second fret) to open position where it is D-G-B.

Classical guitarists learn the note names and the chord theory, so they have the language that allows them understand and explain what is happening on the fretboard--this is a real advantage, because a lot of the confusion comes from imprecise language, and confusion resulting from interpolating the names of the strings with the names of the notes and the numbers from scale positions with the fret position numbers, rather than the complexity of the music itself--