From bouzouki to guitar - DADGAD or not?

Subject: From bouzouki to guitar - DADGAD or not?
From: Stu
Date: 07 Apr 14 - 08:37 AM

I've been playing Irish trad music for some years now on my bouzouki (tuned GDAD), and enjoy it lots. However, I thought it might be worth having a go at the guitar to broaden my horizons a bit.

So I have my guitar, and now I'm wondering what direction to take. I looked at the courses available at the Online Academy of Irish Music, and the course accompanying ITM is taught using DADGAD tuning, whilst the pubs songs section is in standard tuning.

I think I'd like to play some blues too, so assume this means standard thing would be best. Any advice?

Subject: RE: From bouzouki to guitar - DADGAD or not?
From: Big Mick
Date: 07 Apr 14 - 08:45 AM

Wow, great question! I guess (and this is off the top of my head) I would go standard. The reason being that you want to broaden your horizons. DADGAD would be fairly simple for you to pick up at any time, but standard would challenge you. Does that make any sense?

Stream of conscious going on here.

Subject: RE: From bouzouki to guitar - DADGAD or not?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 07 Apr 14 - 09:02 AM

For accompanying traditional dance music (and I've done a lot of it, though English rather than Irish) I like DADGAD. DADGAD chords don't oblige you to include the major or minor 3rd - as is the case with all the basic standard-tuning chords - which makes it particularly good for modal tunes but also less cluttered for major tunes too. And you get the extra depth to the D chord.

DADGAD does tend to get a bit samey if you play it in D all the time (and play other keys with a capo and the same shapes), but it works fine in G, A, Em, Bm etc as well.

Standard would, however, be the choice if you wanted to use jazzier chords and emulate Peerie Willie.

Subject: RE: From bouzouki to guitar - DADGAD or not?
From: GUEST,phil cooper on spouse's laptop
Date: 07 Apr 14 - 09:43 AM

I agree with Big Mick about getting a start in standard tuning. For one thing you can recognize chord shapes from other guitarists at jam sessions. But I also agree with Brian, that DADGAD offers good possibilities. I used to switch back and forth at a local song circle, than I got too damn lazy to do that and just kept my guitar in DADGAD. I started playing accompaniments to other people's songs, regardless of the key and that's worked out pretty well. It does prevent the samey issue Brian mentioned. Parenthetically, I heard a couple songwriters who do everything out of G and capo up and down and that sounds pretty samey after awhile, too.

Subject: RE: From bouzouki to guitar - DADGAD or not?
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 07 Apr 14 - 10:13 AM

Double dropped D is a really lovely and easy tuning (DADGAG but keeping B on the 2nd string). I love playing in it.

The caveat is that it sounds so good that you never practise new things...

Subject: RE: From bouzouki to guitar - DADGAD or not?
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 07 Apr 14 - 11:05 AM

Two sources that have been invaluable to me are:

John Doyle's Mad For Trad guitar tutorial on CD-Rom. Doyle uses Dropped-D for backup and it will stretch your left hand out a bit. Even if your not into Doyle's style (I am but the Kilkelly book below helped me develop my own style) it will give you a good primer in chord progressions and substitutions as he accompanies John Williams (concertina). Lots of good jigs an reels and fun listening. They seem to have turned this into an online lesson at TradIrishmusic.com with Niall Vallely on concertina that I'm not familiar with.

Frank Kilkelly's Accompanying Irish Music on Guitar (Book and CD) deals with a bunch of tunings and styles of some great players (really demystified things for me) and features Kilkelly backing individual players who are all quite good. This could be good for someone looking for direction and again lots of great tunes and playing.

I fell in with an Irish/Scottish trad session about 10 years ago and and these two items gave me a big leg up.

Subject: RE: From bouzouki to guitar - DADGAD or not?
From: Stu
Date: 07 Apr 14 - 11:33 AM

Thanks for the replies everyone - some great advice here.

I like Mick's idea of being challenged (not confusing at all - thanks!) so might bit the bullet and go for standard for the time being. DADGAD seems a more natural progression but seeing as I have my bouzouki for playing Irish perhaps it might be an idea to come back to that later on.

I know nothing about tuning guitars - what is the advantage of drop D over standard? is it just a D difference?

Subject: RE: From bouzouki to guitar - DADGAD or not?
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 07 Apr 14 - 12:25 PM

Stu, With Drop D you always have that drone on the low D string(really makes things rumble,same applies to DADGAD)and low G when you capo 5 and it faciitates playing chords up the neck and also ascending and descending bass runs that might be difficult in Standard tuning. Key to drop D is learning to play a 2nd position D chord which is basically a first position C shape with the pinky playing the D at the 5th string,5th fret and the index finger playing the A at 2nd fret 3rd string. Lots of possibilites in that position for bass runs alternate, modal and moving chords.   
That said,there are tunes that work better in Standard so I put a Hip Shot tuner on the Low E string of my guitar so I can quickly change between standard and D, some times in the same set. I guess I use Standard and Drop D about equally and use DADGAD for fingerstyle.

Of all the tunings I think standard is probably the most versatile, at least in the first position. Just my take.

Subject: RE: From bouzouki to guitar - DADGAD or not?
From: GUEST,DickMiles
Date: 07 Apr 14 - 01:34 PM

"as is the case with all the basic standard-tuning chords"   There are options in Standard tuning,Examples are for an a modal dyad, long a, there is a d modal dyad, so its possible to play in standard tuning, in d using two dyads, for the gmajor chord a more modal sound can be produced by playing the g6 and omitting the 1 string, so gbdgd doubling the first and fifth of the chord, the same goes for tunes in g major,the chord is played ceggcg six string to one, so g 6 shape is used omit 1st string, long d for major and the c chord has the first and fifth doubled again, the little finger frets one string on 3rd fret.
double droppd d is also good, the ordinary c chord gives you c9.
Martin Carthy has stated that he finds his tuning CGCDGA    more flexible for changing keys key than DADGAD, he has sais it allows him to play in four of five keys CGFD and possibly Aminor

Subject: RE: From bouzouki to guitar - DADGAD or not?
From: Musket
Date: 07 Apr 14 - 02:52 PM

Yeah, I found double drop D and love it. I used to use DADGAD a lot and to be fair still do. I found double drop D when someone asked if I would add some old Dylan to my set and used it as he apparently did for Ballad of Hollis Brown. (capo'd up to E)

Subject: RE: From bouzouki to guitar - DADGAD or not?
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Apr 14 - 04:29 PM

I think Martin uses heavier strings for his tuning, in my experience this is not necessary for double drop d, I have used both medium and light with success.

Subject: RE: From bouzouki to guitar - DADGAD or not?
From: GUEST,Dick Miles
Date: 07 Apr 14 - 04:49 PM

Here is another suggestion.
Tune the guitar down a whole tone but in standard, put a partial capo, on the second fret covering strings 543, you re now in dadgad, you can also play in g in this position using, a g6 shape for g, a c shape is the same and the d shape is the samebut leave the first string open, playing ing like this enables you toplay lots of interesting bass runs.
the partial capo as if you were playing in dadgad for d major is not so good for playing tunes but good for the dadgad chordal sound, then when you playin g it is more of a standard sound.
you can also play in g with a different approach partial capo covering   strings 432, this gives the sound of open g tuning.hope this helps.

Subject: RE: From bouzouki to guitar - DADGAD or not?
From: Stu
Date: 08 Apr 14 - 06:52 AM

Thanks again everyone for such good advice. I'm going to start in standard and try drop D later.

Cheers,

Stu

Subject: RE: From bouzouki to guitar - DADGAD or not?
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Apr 14 - 01:21 PM

Some further advice,be conscious of the fact it is not necessary to play all six strings, so in drop d your bottom 3 strings are the same as the top 3 on your bazooka, which might help a bit for tune playing.