Smokers in clubs

Subject: Smokers in clubs
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 11 Apr 14 - 07:57 PM

I would like to get your opinion about something that has began irking me at some clubs.

I am not against people smoking. I am not wanting to upset anyone in this thread. I would like opinions though to be polite and courteous. This will feel like an attack enough on smokers without people beating up on them.

History.
In the UK smoking is now banned totally in all public buildings. I agree with that, for the health of others, but with it has come problems. Some say pubs and clubs are shutting because people annot smoke in them. I do not accept the argument but I accept the sentiment behind it.

So when everyone smoked I hardly ever noticed. Our heads were in it because it was all around us. But since the smoking ban I have found cigarette smoke to be a problem to my throat (makes me cough very easily now). And people smell now that I never noticed before.

Recently a couple asked me why I do not sit with them any more and I was honest in my reply when I told them I thought the world of them, but the smell sitting next to them knocks me sick. He smokes like a trooper and is in and out all night smoking so smells freshly lit all the time!

Frankly it's offensive and the smell is becoming quite harsh to me on my throat. If I sit near a door I have to get the wifts of all those smoking just outside the door. And then the really rude ones are in and out all the time someone is playing, just for a cig.

I know I am not the only one to be offended by bad body odour, but smoking odour has become quite repulsive and I am losing friends because I do not want to sit near them. I cringe if they walk in and there is an empty seat next to me.

What's you take on this, 1) either as a non smoker, or 2) as a smoker yourself who is unaware how bad it smells?

Play nice people please :)

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Jack Campin
Date: 11 Apr 14 - 08:12 PM

I do sessions more than folk clubs these days but hardly ever encounter that in either (Edinburgh/Lothians area). I do occasionally get it on buses, though. Since it's getting to be less of a problem all the time, I'm not inclined to make an issue of it.

The smelliest local session regular I've known (a very clever and witty singer-songwriter) solved the problem by dying of lung cancer.

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Apr 14 - 08:49 PM

I started commuting aged 7 in south-east London in 1962. I those days, it was socially unacceptable for an adult not to smoke, and when the train came in, in seven minutes from the start of the line the coaches were so full of fag smoke you couldn't see your hand in front of your face - the one pea-souper fog I experienced was mild by comparison. Within minutes your eyes were burning and throat hacking, in the way you describe. As a result I did my best to travel in the least affected coach possible, often in the guards van. So your discovery that smoking is a somewhat irritating habit is not something new.
It is now a good 20 years since the baleful and addictive nature of smoking became known, and so those who persist must be seen as not just addicts, but recalcitrantly so. Equally, anyone who's started in that time must be seen as responsible for their actions, there is no remaining possibility of denial of the consequences.
If a smoker has a personal problem, it is maybe his own concern. That he should impose it on others, however, making their problem as well, is no longer acceptable: it only took one Roy Castle to die of cancer caused by secondary smoking to establish that. As a singer, however good my technique, I still pass at least double the normal volume of air through my lungs anyone else does, so I don't see why I should have to take double the risks the person responsible for the fug does. He comes to hear me, and does so on my terms, and they are that if I'm worth listening to, then he does nothing to damage it - by forcing smoke on me. It's bad enough having to go through the fug surrounding where he's been smoking outside the door.
A friend might do better, though, to explain his feelings to those who are hurting their friendship by their lifestyle. You wouldn't stand by while he kills himself of heroin, so why stand idly by when he's doing so from fags?

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Apr 14 - 01:59 AM

To Mauvepink:

In California smoking is banned everywhere, restaurants, all public buildings, and bars, etc. When the smoking ban first happened at bars/pubs, owners were really upset because they said they would lose customers. Well actually at first, it started out that certain cities had the smoking ban in bars - so the managers/owners were afraid that customers would just drive to the next city over (where there was no ban for smoking). But over the years - smoking was banned 100 % in all bars, restaurants, etc. (for many years now.) And people came to accept it - or least tolerate it I guess. If someone does smoke in a bar and the owner allows it, he could be heavily fined. Most people in California really have come to accept it now - that smoking is not permitted - at some buildings you have to be at least 25 feet away from the entrance (on the outside of the building.)

I think you are completely right to feel uncomfortable around smokers as 2nd hand smoke has been proven to be very bad for your health.
I think it is good that you speak up and say how you feel about it to your friends. I just wish your friends would be more considerate of how if effects you physically. You may have to just start to avoid places that allow smoking all together. Is it worth it to you to go to these places and have to put your own health at risk?

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 12 Apr 14 - 02:36 AM

I quite understand your sensitivity and objections, Mauvepink. I had a neighbour when I lived in my previous house who smoked constantly. She was a lovely person and I often went there for a cup of tea. But her house, her car, her breath and her clothes absolutely stank. When I got back home I stank too. I never allowed her to smoke in my house. Eventually a cancer scare forced her to stop smoking, and the difference was wonderful. She later asked me did her house used to smell. I was honest and said that everything smelt, but now it was fresh and pleasant.
I would like the law to be changed to include all public places outside as well. I was waiting at a bus stop and a young woman in front of me was puffing away like a chimney. The smoke was blowing right into my face. In the end, I firmly but politely asked her to either move away until the bus came, or put her cigarette out. Of course, I got a stream of abuse to accompany the smoke, but she did sidle away a little. When the bus came, she chucked her still-burning fag onto the pavement. I don't think anybody has the right to discomfit or risk the health of anybody else in public. And it has to be said, when these people are seriously ill from cancer or heart disease etc, it's our taxes which have to pay for their care from NHS funds.

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Apr 14 - 03:07 AM

I'm an ex-smoker. I saw smoking kill my late wife (with some help from Medway Maritime Hospital). I don't mind smoke. I don't mind people smoking in my house, or car. I don't mind the smell of someone who has just had a cigarette. People make too much fuss. It's rather prissy and schoolmarm-ish.

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Bugsy
Date: 12 Apr 14 - 03:13 AM

In Western Australia it is maybe easier to say where you CAN smoke rather than where you Can't.
You Can Smoke more than 5 metres away from the entrance to a building (unless it is on a "Smoke free Campus" of which there are more each week.

You can smoke in your car (As long as there are no children inside)
You can smoke in the designated area of a Beer Garden of a Tavern.
You can smoke in the Designated areas of the Casino (all outside apart from the International Gamblers Lounge)

You can't smoke on the beach,
You can't smoke in the Park

WA is pushing to be the first Australian State to be completely SMOKE FREE.

As an ex smoker, I understand how hard it is when you are treated like an outcast when you smoke. However I welcome the move with open arms.

Cheers

bugsy

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 12 Apr 14 - 03:14 AM

I was involved and to an extent still am involved in health promotion. I suppose I wouldn't have got involved in healthcare as a campaigner at first if my Dad hadn't died of lung cancer thanks to Woodbine.

What I can say is that whilst a smoking ban in public places was just that, one of the aims was for the smell of smoke to be less prevalent. Therefore the smell being more offensive. Your experience bears the theory out wonderfully.

If we got in a time machine and went into a pub 50 years ago, we would be taken aback by the smell of humanity or body odour to be more correct. That has gone now and on the odd occasion you come across it, it fair knocks you back. It wouldn't have done when I was a child.

The comedian Les Dawson was once quoted as saying Miners Welfares didn't smell as bad as other clubs he played as all the men showered each day.

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: GUEST,padgett
Date: 12 Apr 14 - 03:21 AM

No smoking in clubs has helped all round in my view

I agree with the point regarding singers and their lung capacity, smoke inhalation with singers who have well developed lung power are at greater risk (Roy Castle remember him played trumpet in WMcs)!

People are required to smoke outside if that is their thing, and quite right too

Many factors as to down turn in attendance at folk clubs

Ray

seem to be forever repeating membership on fb ~ mm?

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Will Fly
Date: 12 Apr 14 - 04:02 AM

I played from the mid-60s until the smoking band came along in pubs, clubs, British Legions, Trades & Labour Clubs, etc., where smoking was the norm. I myself stopped smoking about 1970.

I can easily remember getting up in the morning after a gig, with last night's clothes airing on the staircase rail, the stink of my guitar when I took it from its case, the smell of tobacco smoke on the pillow and in my hair. It was part of the job - but I'm glad it's gone!

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: RichM
Date: 12 Apr 14 - 04:28 AM

Smoking in my city is now banned in venues I used to play in. My wife and I (both in a band at the time) would absolutely reek of smoke when we came home after a gig. Our clothes immediately went into the washer, and we showered before doing anything else. And as singers, our throats burned, and we hacked up disgusting phlegm for a few hours. And we weren't smokers!

Ugh. Glad that smoking in clubs and restaurants is banned!

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Apr 14 - 06:13 AM

I used to have to leave my harmonicas outside on a tray overnight to get rid of the odour. Only available when it was certain to not rain, of course, and even then there was a potential birdshit or earwig hazard.

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Apr 14 - 07:57 AM

An interesting change in etiquette that has occurred over the last couple of decades ~~
Although I am a *very* ex-smoker [my last smoke was on 3 April 1975], I have never thought it hospitable to prevent guests smoking in my home. The smell goes within 12 or so hours, I find. Nevertheless, over recent years, my few smoking guests have just gone instinctively into the back garden to smoke. I have said that I don't insist on it, but they always say that they would think it discourteous to smoke in the house, and wouldn't feel comfortable doing so.

~M~

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Apr 14 - 08:59 AM

My last smoke was at five past eight in the evening on 21 February 1978, but I think you may be older than me. As well as being a militant ex-believer I'm a militant ex-smoker. We've lived in our present house for 27 years and during that time no-one has ever smoked herein. I can't think of anything more outrageous than someone smoking in a car with non-smokers present. Well I can, of course, but it's still pretty vile. One day I may become a militant ex-drinker, but that's as likely as a duff bottle of Hirondelle.

I recall Vin Garbutt having us in stitches with his tale of playing in a folk club full of smokers in a room that, helpfully, had an extractor fan. But the fan was at the back of the stage, so all the smoke got sucked in his direction on its way out. :-)

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Will Fly
Date: 12 Apr 14 - 09:02 AM

but that's as likely as a duff bottle of Hirondelle

So - quite possible then...? :-)

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: MBSLynne
Date: 12 Apr 14 - 09:17 AM

I've never smoked though my father has always smoked like a chimney and still does at the age of 84 so I grew up in a smoky house. I agree with most of what everyone has said. I think the ban on smoking in public buildings is a wonderful thin and have found that singing in folk clubs has become much easier since. I remember coming home from a night out and getting up the next morning to a heap of vile smelling clothes and having to wash my hair to get rid of the stink. One of the big benefits of the ban has been that many of my confirmed smoker friends have now managed to give it up and I don't have too much problem, in consequence, with smoke-smelling friends. It's true though that the smell is much more noticeable now and I often get revolting wafts of smoke stink from people walking past me in the street. I agree it's actually even more offensive than body odour. I get very upset to the point of homicidal when I see mothers of small children smoking away in their presence and even bending over to do up pushchair straps with the fag in their mouths a matter of inches from the child's face. What people do to themselves is their business and theri responsibility but to impose that on your child in the full knowledge of the dangers is criminal.

The problems I've found since the smoking ban, as well as heightened awareness of the smell are the litter of fag ends on the ground outside buildings and having to walk through a crowd of smokers and a consequent cloud of smoke to get in to a building. The WA rule of more than 5 metres away is a good one. I agree with mauve pink that all public areas should be included in the ban. I know it seems very hard on smokers some of whom are serious addicts and find it almost impossible to give up, but it's probably to their benefit too in the long run.

And just by the way, my Dad, though he was always quite a bolshie smoker, now goes outside to smoke and never smokes in the house even though it's only him and my Mum.

Love Lynne

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Marje
Date: 12 Apr 14 - 10:39 AM

I hated the smokiness of pubs and other public spaces, and my life is quite transformed now that I don't have to suffer it. I used to go to sessions in pubs and come home reeking of smoke. Sometimes the smell of my own hair would wake me in the night afterwards.

I play the melodeon, and after a pub session, the next time I took the box out to play at home, I would take it outdoors and give the bellows a few big in-and-outs, to rinse out all the smoky air that I'd brought home with me. Ugh.

I do notice the smell now from smokers who've come into a pub or a shop or a bus having just had a ciggy, but it's a small annoyance compared with having to live with the stink for hours on end as we once did.

It's almost seven years now since this transformation in the UK, and I have to say a big thank-you to our "Nanny State", who achieved what successive voluntary campaigns had failed to accomplish.

Marje

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 12 Apr 14 - 11:34 AM

As a lifelong non-smoker whose mother - a smoker - died of lung cancer, I don't object to other people smoking at all. Though I will probably remove myself from smoking in a closed space because a) I have asthma and b) cigarette smoke can provoke headaches (I avoid anything that can provoke headaches as my headaches can last for days.)

As for people smoking smelling of tobacco, If I can put up with the smell of bad perfume on other women (one of the most common, least pleasant and most pervasive smells I can think of), I can certainly put up with the smell of tobacco smoke on other people's clothes. In fact I quite like the smell of stale tobacco, and of old beer, and woodsmoke, even horse dung.

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Apr 14 - 11:51 AM

You are obviously a bit of an olfactory kink, Sister!

Enjoy!

luv

~M~

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 12 Apr 14 - 02:36 PM

I remember that the first ever open mic I done was just before the ban and I remember a very dry throat. maybe it was nerves as well, but the next occasion was so much better.

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Apr 14 - 04:02 PM

but that's as likely as a duff bottle of Hirondelle

So - quite possible then...? :-)

Indeed, Will (and my, how that dates us), but do try to not respond to my posts like the typical yank... ;-)

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Thompson
Date: 12 Apr 14 - 06:01 PM

They're addicts. They can't help it.
It's incredibly hard to give up the smokes, and so people will make all kinds of meretricious excuses so they don't have to try.

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Apr 14 - 07:11 PM

It's hard; but it can be done. I attempted it several times, and eventually managed it 39 years ago after many years of a 40-a-day habit. There is just an optimum moment which one must seize; and then avoid the "I've been without for a month, so I'll just have one to show I can without becoming addicted again", which is disastrous. But anyone with enough willpower can give up.

~M~

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Apr 14 - 07:54 PM

Aye, just think, The: you and I would undoubtedly both be dead by now but for that opportune moment. I'd given up for about six weeks in that fateful February of 1978 (well, it felt like a long month anyway...), and I was weakening badly, when we discovered that we were pregnant. That gave me courage to keep it up. My lovely daughter, now aged 34, doesn't realise that I wouldn't be here but for her. I'm not going to tell her either. My policy has always been to never spoil my kids.

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 12 Apr 14 - 08:47 PM

"They're addicts. They can't help it.
It's incredibly hard to give up the smokes, and so people will make all kinds of meretricious excuses so they don't have to try. "

Oh I know... I used to give up smoking every morning and some days I got to midday! Thankfully my last cig was around 2PM on 15th December 2004. I threww six cigs out the window of my car and never had one since. Giving up is hard I know.

But I am not some reformed smoker who now wants to stop everyone else. Their choice. And they did if for many a year withot me noticing too much. But now, because we have clean air, the smokes really messes things and the thoughts of me kissing another woman who just had a cigararette. Well, it just will never happen. I don't date smokers.

I just got home after doing a an all women's night gig in Manchester. Two of those women smoked out of 40 and you could tell. Sucj a shame. They would be wonderful otherwise ;)

---------------

THANK YOU everyone for your comments and opinions. I can assure Mr Bridge I am in no way school m'armish, but these days I do like clean air around me :)

Keep the comments coming folks and thanks again for your input x

mp

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: GUEST,Guest - Cynthia
Date: 12 Apr 14 - 10:06 PM

Hello MP:

Your health is of upmost importance. It is not worth it to spend time with "friends" who are not concerned with how detrimental it is to you and others. They are just interested in their own addictive behavior with no consideration for others who are getting the bad effects of their second hand smoke. Just Google "Second hand smoke" to see the enormous studies that have been done for years now about the ill effects from second hand smoke. I think most people do already know this - but don't care. Please do yourself - your health a favour and avoid it - even if it means avoiding the social scene clubs/pubs that permit it. Where will your smoking friends be if you became very ill from continual exposure to 2nd hand smoke?

Of course it is hard sometimes to avoid it completely - when you are waiting for a bus and many people are smoking, you can only walk so far away from the bus stop. Your health - and avoiding smokers as much as possible though is really important! I don't date smokers either! :-)
There is no way I can defend "smokers rights" when what they are doing is not only effecting their own health, but the health of non-smokers, children.

Kind Regards,
Cynthia

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Joe_F
Date: 12 Apr 14 - 11:21 PM

An addict of my acquaintance, at singing parties, says from time to time "Sorry, I have to go out for a breath of foul air".

Certainly, it is an improvement for me to be able to spend an evening in a bar without having to wash everything from the skin out afterward. However, I do not spend a lot of time in bars, and I sympathize with the people who do & are used to mixing the two vices. (There was a lovely cartoon that showed a customer asking a bartender for a light & being told "Sorry, you can't rot your lungs here anymore -- we only do livers.") Perhaps, in some kinds of establishments, a technological fix might be possible -- say, in a restaurant, an exhaust hood over each booth with a powerful fan activated by the first whiff of smoke.

Speaking of technological fixes, I read some time ago of a device that some have found helpful in quitting. It consists of a cigarette box with two buttons on it. Push the green button, and it will eject a cigarette in 10 minutes -- provided that you have not pushed the red button in the meantime. It seems that for some people, never being more than 10 minutes away from a smoke does the job.

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 Apr 14 - 01:19 AM

2nd-hand smoke: not a myth. My father was a lifelong heavy smoker. My mother, who never smoked in her whole life, died of lung cancer at 57...

~M~

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Andrez
Date: 13 Apr 14 - 03:01 AM

I couldnt agree more with all of the above. My pet hate is simply walking behind someone in the street may be 20 metres ahead of me and still copping a face full of their exhaust fumes as they walk on blissfully by. They just dont give a rats.....! Grrrrrrrr!

Cheers,

Andrez

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 13 Apr 14 - 03:10 AM

I agree about the cigarette ends lying around in piles outside offices and shops. People do seem to fling anything down in the street nowadays. We were in a giant Tesco's yesterday, and there's a bench outside round the corner for smokers. It made me sad to see many young mums with their little ones in pushchairs beside them, noses stuck into their mobile phones, puffing away there, with the fag ends in heaps all around their feet. Horrible.

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: GUEST,LynnH
Date: 13 Apr 14 - 03:23 AM

As a non-smoker I've had enough passive smoking induced bronchitis to last me a lifetime- that's the negative memory of folk clubs. Not that pipe smokers were any better. I remember singing one night when the Rev. Kenneth Loveless was the guest. He sat in the front row with his pipe polluting the air quite nicely. No idea what sort of shag he'd stuffed it with but it must have been industrial grade! I can't remember what I sang but I do know that at one point instead of air I got a lungful of smoke....heavy coughing fit....end of song.

@Andrez: early mornings are even worse! There's virtually no-one about but if someone has crossed the street 10 minutes earlier their smoke still hangs there.

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: DebC
Date: 13 Apr 14 - 03:41 AM

I am an ex-smoker (totally smoke free for 32 years) and I have become quite sensitive to it. I hold my breath when I walk past someone with a lit cig in the street or exiting a building where the smokers gather.

As a professional singer, I have to be extra careful with second-hand smoke. In my performance agreements, I state that I am very happy to be housed in a private home, but the home must be totally non-smoking. Even the person who steps outside brings it back in with them as the OP stated above. The smell that clings to the person makes me ill.

As a former smoker, I do understand the addiction. My mother died from smoking; not cancer, but decreased circulation and emphysema. It was so difficult to watch her die such a slow death. But i also know how hard it is to quit. It was one the hardest things I've ever done in my life.

Having smokers go outside in the UK is fantastic for those of us that work in the folk clubs. In the States where I live, there are still places where one can smoke anywhere. I will not give those places my business since it's a risk to my health and my career.

Debra Cowan

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Apr 14 - 03:49 AM

I never cease to be amazed about how solidly the smoking ban has established itself in Ireland where, immediately prior to its introduction, many of the pubs were no-go areas to be and my lungs.
It still amuses me to drive through some Irish villages late at night and see the little huddle of illegal after-hours drinkers having a quick drag outside so as not to break the law.
Some laws are more important than others, it would seem.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Apr 14 - 06:19 AM

Priorities, Jim, priorities!

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Apr 14 - 06:28 AM

I'll drink to that!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: nutty
Date: 13 Apr 14 - 06:29 AM

I can't believe the intolerence being shown by some people here.

The world is full of noxious smells - cigarette smoke being IMO one of the minor ones

My own pet hates are beer breath, farts, garlic, sweat and people who douse themselves in perfume and aftershave.

You don't have to sit near the smokers - you can always move.

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Musket
Date: 13 Apr 14 - 07:05 AM

No. The smokers can move. The smokers should look to cause and effect before lighting up. You don't have to move through inaction, but action.

Smokers are inconsiderate. No ifs, no buts. Might be otherwise nice people, but they smell. They smell bad and they re not nice to be around. They don't have to smoke either. All this crap about how hard it is to give up. Utter bullock.

You want to give up? Easy. Stop smoking. Stop buying cigarettes. Don't fall for the nicotine chews, patches or plastic fags. They are like methadone for a heroin addict.

Beer breath doesn't affect the health of decent people in your vicinity. Farts don't, (except those from my greyhound to be fair,) garlic could be good for you, sweat doesn't hurt you and perfume and aftershave don't either. Granted, they may not be nice, but no problem to the health of others.

Our government is considering banning smoking in cars with children in them. Obviously, the need for the government to step in just shows the uncaring attitude of many who smoke. We know conclusively the harm it does, yet some people think they can smoke in the same room as children, in the same car as children and can't see why they were stopped from doing it in the same room as unsuspecting adults.

Just think, but for the political influence of drug pushers in suits such as BAT, it would be a criminal affiance to supply. As it is, to protect their markets, they are causing a massive health problem in third world countries. Just think about the morals around that.

A true drug addiction. It is the same attitude that forces crackheads into crime, because feeding your habit is more important than thinking about others.

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Apr 14 - 07:23 AM

Best line I've heard re. smoking.
Q: "Do you mind if I smoke?"
A: "No. Do you mind if I fart in your face?"

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Apr 14 - 07:59 AM

"The world is full of noxious smells"
Not all of them leave people's lungs like lace curtains and by and large, very few are imposed by the deliberate choice of individuals to spread their noxious fumes in company.
I think if most smokers realised how unpleasant they smell close up, self conciousness might just make them think twice.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Apr 14 - 08:34 AM

I completely agree with Musket and Jim.

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Apr 14 - 08:43 AM

"Best line I've heard re. smoking."
How about
"Do you smoke after sex?"
"Dunno - I've never looked"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 13 Apr 14 - 08:49 AM

I do not think all smokers are selfish and nasty folk by any means. Many, these days, agree to their own addiction, but do a great deal not to offend others. Some I know will totally respects bans and people's space.

The sad fact for me, and it is touched on above, is that as an ex smoker I seem particularly sensitive to smoke now. It does not make me ever want to smoke again. It makes me feel feel nauseus and sets up a cough almost immediately. If I am singing that night my throat is affect.

I cannot always get up and move. The other evening the two said friends came in as the pub was filling and sat either side of me. I cannot be so rude as to tell them to go away because they smell. They both know they do, because I told them why I do not sit near them any more. I do not like being rude nor unfriendly. So I have to 'suck it up' or leave.

Yesterday I had to hire a deisel van to get all my gear to the gig. It was leaking deilel from somewhere but not an obvious leak. Driving home was a nightmare for me and my throat is sore today. So it's not just smoke that is noxious. I am aware.

Smeeling of smoke is abnoxious and, sadly, has become something I do not like about myself because I detest singling any group of people out to discrimiante against. It goes against all I hold dear... BUT, I confess, it is beginning to grind me down and there are now two clubs I will likely stop going to because of this :(

--------------

Again though. Thank you ALL for your thoughful replies. I appreciate the opinions on both sides of this divide

mp

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Apr 14 - 11:04 AM

Er, it is quite hard to give up, Musket. I did it the way you recommend, but it was hard. Really hard, I found.

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 13 Apr 14 - 12:33 PM

Oh for sure giving up is not easy... one of the hardest things I ever had to do. The addiction to nicotine is horrid and I gave myself thousands of excuses to carry on. I am glad I won... but it was not easy.

All this said I love the smell of a pipe! So few gentlemen, and even less ladies, smoke a pipe these days. But still bad for your health so I am not saying it's okay.

I respect anyone who kicked the habit. And I pity, in the true sense of the word, those who cannot get away from it

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Apr 14 - 01:06 PM

As someone who tries to make a living from singing, I cannot afford to smoke[financially or health wise]. I am so glad I gave up,[40 years ago] every morning I suffer because of my previous addiction and because of passive smoking, coughing etc.

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Musket
Date: 13 Apr 14 - 02:47 PM

Aye Steve, you did it though. I never said it was easy, I just said it can be done. I have friends who went through hell trying, hence doing my bit as a campaigner over the years. Awful thing to get addicted to. It isn't just the killing though. I recall a patient moaning because there were no staff available to put him a wheelchair and take him outside for a fag. "I smoked since I was a lad and it hasn't harmed me!" He said. Both legs amputated, septicaemia, on oxygen, COPD.....

But agreeing it is hard can just make it even harder. It is an addiction.

Some of the heaviest smokers I knew were those I worked with down the pit. But you know what? For eight hours a day they didn't smoke. At the time when they needed most concentration they didn't smoke. When they were knackered they didn't smoke.

That alone had me scratching my head over the need.





Do you smoke after sex?

I simmer a bit around the edges.....

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Johnny J
Date: 13 Apr 14 - 03:11 PM

Mauvepink,

Do you live in the UK?

Jack,

Do people still smoke on buses?

If the answer to either question is "yes", are people flouting the law on a regular basis?   I've never noticed this myself.

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Johnny J
Date: 13 Apr 14 - 03:20 PM

Oops, I've just read this again. The complaint seems to be about the smell from smokers as opposed to them smoking!

Yes, some smell very badly but they are the minority. Personal hygiene plays an important part and if people wash themselves and their clothes regularly there should be less of a problem especially if they are only moderate smokers.

So most smokers don't bother me, in this respect.

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Apr 14 - 03:37 PM

"Personal hygiene plays an important part and if people wash themselves and their clothes regularly"
Nowadays, in an established 'non-smoking' environment that wold have to be each time they had a fag, I'm afraid.
I have never smoked, but I grew up in a household of heavy smokers and was not aware of the smell.
Now smoking is a rarity in public, I can spot a smoker from 50 paces simply by the smell.
The worst culprits are the women who try to disguise their smoking with perfule - Capstan (do they still exist) and Chanel no 5 - yeuch!!!
I am fully aware of the addictive nature of tobacco and fully sympathise with those hooked, but it doesn't mean I want to return to having my life put in jeopardy or go home smelling of someone else's unhealthy habit.
I am also fully aware of the lethal nature of smoking - my mother died of cancer and an autopsy revealed my father would have done also had he not been killed in a road accident.
Sorry - good riddance, as far as I'm concerned
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 13 Apr 14 - 03:55 PM

And oh yes, surely there are people who are "sensitive " to those who deep fat fry..fat people and people who work in chip shops, let us ban them..and those who eat too much curry or garlic...my god, you may sneeze or, god forbid, go home reeking of food you don.t like. And what abour those who have habits or personal hygene that differ from your..hurl the buggers out.. I refuse to be exposed to those who offend me . Get rid of those insecure short men who wear after shave by the gallon, the floozies whose idea of dressing up is to lather up with a half gallon of evening in Paris..Juysus, can't have them in pubs or clubs....And of course there are those who reek of petrol because they can't walk anywhere and there are those who start these hateful threads and then claim not to want to offend anyone when all you have done is shone a light in the crack where the insufferable and the intolerant hide.

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 13 Apr 14 - 04:11 PM

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Apr 14 - 04:24 PM

"And oh yes, surely there are people who are "sensitive " to those who deep fat fry..fat people and people who work in chip shops, let us ban them..and those who eat too much curry or garlic...my god, you may sneeze or, god forbid, go home reeking of food you don.t like. And what abour those who have habits or personal hygene that differ from your..hurl the buggers out.. I refuse to be exposed to those who offend me . Get rid of those insecure short men who wear after shave by the gallon, the floozies whose idea of dressing up is to lather up with a half gallon of evening in Paris..Juysus, can't have them in pubs or clubs....And of course there are those who reek of petrol because they can't walk anywhere and there are those who start these hateful threads and then claim not to want to offend anyone when all you have done is shone a light in the crack where the insufferable and the intolerant hide.

I am sorry you feel that way Guest Hilo. There is nothing at all hateful in what I am spoken of here and I think everyone has been well mannered and polite in giving pints of view, as you do now.

Yes there are odours out there all the time and some people smell. I hear what you are saying. There are two perfumes that knock me flying if I smell them on another woman. So I empathise. But no-one is on about banning anyone here. I never saw anyone advocating banning the ones who wreak of tobacco.

This was an enquiry to see if I was being awful or if it affected others. It obviously affects more like me than it does not affect you. But still no hate or ban mentioned.

I just feel a little less guilty of avoiding people now knowing it is also a problem for others. I did not think that the "insufferable and the intlorant" were among thee posts. Just people with open debate and opinion.

So would it be wrong to say I am sorry I offended you whilst still sticking to how I feel about something that affects me? I do assure you that no hate is involved here. Quite the contrary if you read what I put :)

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 13 Apr 14 - 04:26 PM

Apologies. I sent before putting my name in...

The last post was mine

mp

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Jack Campin
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 01:30 AM

Do people still smoke on buses?

Very rarely. But they do bring the pong onboard with them. Quite often they'll stand at the stop smoking and only drop their fag as they step on the bus.

Some smokers pong badly enough that you can smell them from halfway along the bus as they get on.

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 02:31 AM

The question of personal hygiene is a total red herring to this discussion.
Yes, those who don't wash, or overdose with perfume etc... can be offensive, but someone who indulges in a recreational habit, no matter how addictive, that is undeniably unhealthy to the extent of being lethal to themselves and those forced to share their habit, does so from choice.
Nobody is asking that they be "banned", just that they practice their habit where it doesn't effect those of us who don't wish to share it - that doesn't seem particularly unreasonable or intolerant to me.
I'm a bronchitic who loves folk music; it seems outrageously unfair that I should be asked to stay away from my music because somebody who has had the bad luck and bad judgement to get hooked on a lethal habit and can't be bothered to make the effort to step outside whenever they feel the urge to shoot up.
Am I missing something here?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 02:42 AM

You are missing nothing Jim.

All the apologists for selfishness can pick and mix their tired arguments from Forest, the pro drug addiction UK lobby group.

Before anti social behaviour was criminalised in public indoor areas, there used to be folk club not a million miles away from me called No Smoke Folk.

Very popular, very crowded. Very good.

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 03:15 AM

I stopped smoking completely in 1982 but prior to that my 20 No6 or pouch of Condor sliced was as essential folk club equipment to me as a guitar or concertina would be to others. The smoke in a folk or jazz club never bothered me but I voted along with others at our club to impose a voluntary smoking ban in the club room some fifteen years or so ago. However now with the total smoking ban (something I am seriously opposed to) we now have the joys of the smoking shelter and at our present club location this is situated just below the club room. Now, as the warm nights are coming on, sure as Hell someone will want the windows open on a club night and we will have the pleasure of trying to listen to an expensive guest above the inane cackle emanating from the smoker's refuge. In comparison give me a roomful tobacco smoke any time.

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 03:40 AM

Apart from the simple realuity, HiLo, the statistics show that of 57 postings prior to this, you're the only one to support the tobacco industry. You also don't seem to be a performer. Perhaps you might consider that with that weight of evidence, you might be a little less self-righteous?

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 04:34 AM

The talented English comedian, Roy Hudd, died from passive smoking.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Johnny J
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 05:41 AM

He's still alive as far as I know. Are you thinking about Roy Castle?

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 05:45 AM

That's the one
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 05:46 AM

Well, no, there are several of us here who are not so judgmental. MtheGM (rare I agree with him) finds it discourteous to ask a guest to his home to go out to smoke, and I too find the discrimination here more distasteful than I find smoke. I'm a non-smoker (of many years, maybe about 30) but I'm not a bigot.

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Johnny J
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 06:02 AM

From what I can gather, the OP was complaining about the smell emanating from smokers, i.e. their clothes, breath, body odour as opposed to the actual act of smoking. Jack referred to this as well.

I too would object to smoking in an enclosed place and it also irritates me to see smokers hanging around outside pub doors and so on but they have to go somewhere.

However, it wouldn't really matter where they smoked AT ALL if the issue is the lingering "after smell". To an extent, this can obviously be ameliorated to an extent if a smoker regular wears fresh clothes and so on unless even the slightest whiff of stale tobacco smoke etc upsets everyone so much.

However, if it's the latter, then it would seem that there is nowhere for a smoker to go and he or she are not welcome anywhere in public if they have been smoking previously that day. In my opinion, that seems very harsh.

As I say, moderate smokers with respect for others and their own hygiene do not trouble me at all. Many of my friends and others "nip out" for a smoke or I am aware that they are smokers but they don't all smell. Only a small minority. Of course, I may may not have the most sensitive nose.
:-)

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Musket
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 06:15 AM

I haven't heard any bigoted views here Bridge. Smoking kills, Smoking lowers your medical quality of life. Smoking legitimatises smoking in the eyes of impressionable young people. Smoking creates an unnecessary, note the word, unnecessary unpleasant odour that is also carcinogenic.

Even now with other life limiting factors such as junk food and sedentary lifestyle, smoking is the main reason why I look out of my office window and see a tower block full of wards and clinics stacked to the gills with sick and prematurely dying people. Mortality rates may be 100% if you are patient enough, but premature mortality? Better to upset a few people who don't mind upsetting others if it's all the same to you.

Nobody smokes in our house either. Unless they want me to go round to theirs and shit on their Axminster.

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Johnny J
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 06:18 AM

I should add that, since the smoking ban, I can get two or three extra "wears" out of my clothes although I will still change my underwear, socks and shirts on a daily basis. However, trousers, jumpers and so on can now be worn for longer.

Before the smoking ban, I would always have to wash all my clothes each time after going into smoky bars, clubs etc and I was a NON smoker!

However, if smokers don't wash or change their clothes regularly it's very noticeable although not necessarily to themselves.

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 06:30 AM

Roy Castle did not die of passive smoking, Roy Castle died of lung cancer. As far as I am aware passive smoking is not a disease nor can it be given as a cause of death in itself. But hey ho, why let facts get in the way of a good whinge.

Before anyone asks I was a very heavy smoker, stopped for NINE Years, got a job in the Health Service and started again and am now suffering the consequences of doing that.

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 07:07 AM

From the National Cancer Institute

"Secondhand smoke (also called environmental tobacco smoke, involuntary smoke, and passive smoke) is the smoke given off by a burning tobacco product and the smoke exhaled by a smoker.
At least 69 chemicals in secondhand smoke are known to cause cancer.
Secondhand smoke causes lung cancer in nonsmokers.
Secondhand smoke has also been associated with heart disease in adults and sudden infant death syndrome, ear infections, and asthma attacks in children.
There is no safe level of exposure to secondhand smoke."
'The Roy Castle Lung Cancer Foundation' was set up to combat the effects of passive smoking - coincidence maybe; perhaps he intended his money to be donated to Battersea Dogs Home
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Johnny J
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 07:29 AM

There are some scurrilous rumours out there that Roy Castle used to enjoy an occasional cigar.

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Jack Campin
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 07:29 AM

MtheGM (rare I agree with him) finds it discourteous to ask a guest to his home to go out to smoke, and I too find the discrimination here more distasteful than I find smoke.

It takes about three weeks for the smell of just one cigarette to go away if somebody smokes in our house. I'm going to carry on discriminating.

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Musket
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 08:07 AM

It takes them longer if I drop my trousers and crimp one off on their carpet...

"Roy Castle didn't die of passive smoking, he died of lung cancer."

Quite......

(If you must be so pedantic, he most probably died of pneumonia. Most people dying of cancer actually expire through another cause, and it is no certainty which is primary on the death certificate. Cause of death as opposed to causes of what got you to a death situation in the first place. Many old people die because they never quite become active again after a fall resulting in fractured neck of femur. Did they die of an infection? frail heart? Or did they die of an uneven pavement two months ago?)

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 08:28 AM

Musket please don't take umbrage with me. There are numerous people who shout from the rooftops ad nauseam about their particular beef.

I am merely pointing out the fact that Roy Castle did not die of passive smoking. I will be persuaded that his frequent contact with second hand smoke may have contributed in some part to his premature death and it is good that we take measures to avoid that.

Wherefore I have a right to smoke I do not have a right to inflict it upon others ........... however it would seem that certain individuals are trying to make me and all other smokers social pariahs. The level of contact with smoke from someone smoking in the street must be miniscule but still they carry on what seems to some as an almost mindless vendetta.

There are many other social ills which we could address. We could look at society in general and consider discrimination whether sexual, ethnic, gender, race, creed, colour or class. I would suggest that if the same people who make such a fuss about passive smoking kicked up a fuss about these ills something may be done to change the situation and I for one would happily jump on their band wagon.

However experience tells me that it is unlikely that this will happen. A little tolerance goes a long way.

Just as an example I had a woman have a go at me in one of the local folk clubs just because I was rolling a cigarette. I was very tempted to suggest that as she had the equipment she could be a prostitute. I didn't but I was tempted.

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: GUEST,Mick Tems (heb cwci)
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 08:30 AM

Nobody has mentioned that Forest ("the pro drug addict lobby group") is heavily supported by the tobacco industry.

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 08:36 AM

Dear GUEST; just to clear away a few of your assumptions..I do not support the tobacco industry..not sure how you managed to come to that conclusion. I am fully in favour of the ban in public places. I have been a performer and have done so in many a smoke filled room. However, I am against the judgemental shite that passes for protecting ones "Space". I have many friends who smoke, I would never abandon a good friend because of the how they smell. My friends who smoke are kind and decent people who are very considerate and do not force the habit on anyone.
what I am against is the nastiness of some posters here, people who, in their own perfection, are so intolerant of others...these are the ones I would avoid in clubs, or anywhere else for that matter.

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 08:59 AM

" however it would seem that certain individuals are trying to make me and all other smokers social pariahs"
I don't think anybody is - you are being asked to smoke where it can't adversely harm anybody else.
Those who refuse to see the reasons for this and demand to be allowed to adversely affect all our healths are the ones who should be granted 'pariah' status
There are many other social ills we could address, but this particular one is within the realms of possibility of our doing something about it - and it is the subject of this thread.
The claim that passive smoking causes cancer is certainly open to challenge, but the fact that it is both offensive and unhealthy to all is not.
I do hope this issue is not dismissed in the interests of the few, as were the warnings of global warming
From the Journal of the National Cancer Institute.
"When all the evidence, including the important new data reported in this issue of the Journal, is assessed, the inescapable scientific conclusion is that ETS is a low-level lung carcinogen. Thus, the reduction in risk of lung cancer following cessation of exposure to ETS in the IARC study is a hopeful sign and suggests that measures aimed at the reduction of smoking may benefit not only smokers but also persons with whom they live and work."
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 10:04 AM

Yes, well said HiLo.

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Musket
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 10:41 AM

Yes but it strains your voice to shout, as standing near them isn't nice.

I too have a few friends around who still smoke. Not as many I used to have but some are dead, some have given up smoking. They are still friends but friends who aren't quite as nice as other friends to stand close to at times.

Absolutely nothing to do with the OP. The question was about smoking around others. People can defend it all they like, but smokers really do have to take on board the fact that it stinks far more now than it used to. The smell has not changed chemically, but peoples' olfactory senses have.

At one time, if you got your car keys out after a skinful, friends warned you that you might get caught. The same friends might warn you now that you could cause an accident and kill others as well as yourself. Society changes and smokers have to get used to the fact that consideration for others is the norm now. Society has got a hell of a lot better. Those who speak of nanny state are usually complaining that their opportunity for boorish behaviour is being reduced.

I'd make them class A. I am also on record for proposing an idea that anybody who on a certain date around now was 16 or under relinquishes the automatic right to free NHS care for smoking related illness in future. To do that, we need to tighten up on passive smoking too.

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 12:21 PM

There are many other social ills which we could address. We could look at society in general and consider discrimination whether sexual, ethnic, gender, race, creed, colour or class. I would suggest that if the same people who make such a fuss about passive smoking kicked up a fuss about these ills something may be done to change the situation and I for one would happily jump on their band wagon

Dear Raggytash... I hear you. I am a gay woman who has taken the abuse, even on these hallowed pages, for taking a stand against hate and bigotry (as have many of the straight and gay members of Mudcat over time). I sing about straight and gay issues just as equally as I can. I know the subject very well. But I am not advocating any social exclusion here. I started the thread to ask if other people are affected by the smoke and the smell as much as I seem to be. It would appear they are.

But believe me when I say this is not coming from any bigotry or hatred.

I wish all minorities well because, as individuals, we are all a minority of one :)

mp

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 12:29 PM

Re. Musket's penultimate post and causes of death.
How many people actually die from an o.d. of morphine?
(A blessing, I should add).

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 12:56 PM

Roy Hudd is alive, Rod Hull is dead, but I dont think he died from passive emu.

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 01:09 PM

All these years on since the smoking ban in pubs, clubs and other enclosed venues I have got used to it exactly as they said we would and by and large most people seem to abide by it even in the most rundown of establishments. I remember too the days when cinemas had started to divide the auditorium into smoking and nonsmoking areas which was ridiculous as the smoke still drifted over to the nonsmoking side anyway and my eyes would be streaming by the time the film was over! There are times when I long for the smokey cavern type clubs of the 60s or 70s but it soon passes when I remember the stench of the overfilled ashtrays full of cigarette butts especially if you happened to be in the unfortunate position of clearing it.

It would be interesting to hear views on the 'E' cigarette as it seems that Wales is putting a ban on them also in public places.

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 01:24 PM

According to a recent report on the effects of the smoking ban in Ireland, the number of smokers has fallen from 29% of the population to 22% in ten years.
It is estimated that 3,700 lives have been saved thanks to the cleaner air.
A start....
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Jack Campin
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 06:18 PM

The level of contact with smoke from someone smoking in the street must be miniscule

I'll stand in rain or snow rather than share a bus shelter or doorway with somebody doing it.

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 06:26 PM

Old thinking. Yolo.

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: GUEST,roisin white
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 06:52 PM

Hello all you happy smokers!!it gives you a gravelly singing voice. R

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: GUEST,Fumblefingers
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 08:39 PM

E-cigarettes are the way to go. No combustion. no smoke, no smell. Of course there are busybodies that want them banned where smoking is banned. They just can't stand seeing someone enjoying himself.

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 02:10 AM

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Jack Campin - PM
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 06:18 PM

The level of contact with smoke from someone smoking in the street must be miniscule

I'll stand in rain or snow rather than share a bus shelter or doorway with somebody doing it."
hilarious, it sounds like you would be happy to die of pneumonia, in your fight against the perfidious cigarette smoke.it reminds me of the song lumley kettlewell Who used a potter's crate as a bed in the company of ducks, geese, a fox and other animals?

A citizen of York named Lumley Kettlewell, the son of a Mr. Richard Kettlewell, a prosperous farmer of Bolton Percy.

He was born at Clementhorpe in 1741, and although given education, culture and the material means to provide a life of ease and tastes of a gentleman, chose an existence which was not only eccentric but squalid, sordid and degrading.

Kettlewell was a man of delicate build and was gentle and refined in manner, yet although in possession of the qualities and means which might have given him admission to the drawing-room and fashionable salon, Kettlewell sought a way of life which was, to say the least, extraordinary.

He eschewed the costume of the conventional and respectable, appearing on the streets of York in a tattered ballroom coat, a fur cap and hussar boots, or wearing a high-crowned hat and old oilskin coat.

Throughout his life Kettlewell kept fine bloodstock horses and game-dogs, the poor creatures usually starving to death as a result of neglect.

His house, the front door of which he kept strongly barred, was entered by means of a ladder which gave entrance to the first floor.
His living quarters consisted of one room in which he passed the hours of slumber in a potter's crate stuffed with hay.
The chamber was shared with dogs, a fox, muscovy ducks and a Maltese ass, which poor creatures usually terminated their existence as a result of neglect and starvation.

Kettlewell in spite of his very meagre existence, was careless of his money, leaving it in any odd corner and littered over the window seats, much of it, being in the form of banknotes, being devoured by the rats which overran the place.

In spite of a seeming difference in the way of fellows, Kettlewell had a strong sense of humour and was regarded as a man whose word was his bond.
He never indulged in a quarrel or calumny and never broke a promise.

Nothing delighted him more than an intellectual discussion, particularly concerning natural history and chemistry.
He never received visitors, which is hardly surprising, but would spend hours in the houses of educated and thoughtful persons, discussing scientific and philosophical subjects for hours on end.

In warm weather, Kettlewell would carry a large sponge on his person, dipping it occasionally in water and placing it on the top of his head, remarking that such a method of cooling oneself was the equal of food and drink.

His diet was a curious one and he regarded the heads of cocks as a particular delicacy.
Unfortunately for the creatures in his care, his dietetic theories did not prove beneficial to them and he wrote of his favourite horse, "As soon as the beast grew accustomed to living without food, it died."

Kettlewell died in 1819 in conditions of poverty and degredation, and having left his mark as one of the oddest characters Yorkshire has ever known.

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: GUEST,FloraG
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 03:37 AM

Have you noticed how sessions are more disrupted as smokers pop in and out - some not even waiting for a set to finish. You go to ask someone to take a turn - and they are not there - but reappear 5 minutes later.
FloraG.

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 03:42 PM

There is no way a smoker can justify polluting the air we have to breathe. Mentioning all the other odors we have to put up with is a smoke screen.

Most people don't smoke, the message is clear.

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 07:20 AM

It is my observation that often smokers are out of the sing around much of the time, but usually manage to re emerge to take their turn.   I suppose for the seriously addicted ,listening to other participants is a pleasure they must forego !.

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 07:26 AM

Guest something for you to ponder. If one person is alone in a room they have access to all the air in that room for their own use. If another person enters that room they, during the course of breathing, exhale carbon dioxide thus polluting the room for the other person. Where do want to draw the line? Just smokers?

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Johnny J
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 07:49 AM

"I suppose for the seriously addicted ,listening to other participants is a pleasure they must forego !. "

Smoking has a few advantages after all.

:-)))))

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Musket
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 07:53 AM

Some of the arguments for tolerating smoking remind me of no pissing areas in a swimming pool.

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 08:10 AM

"Just smokers?"
Not really - if I feel like a pee, I don't piss against the counter because I don't feel like going outside.
Breathing is a matter of necessity - smoking is one of choice.
Smoking in enclosed areas is simply selfish
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Stringsinger
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 11:09 AM

>My own pet hates are beer breath, farts, garlic, sweat and people who douse themselves in perfume and aftershave. >

But none of these things will kill you.

How would it be for a law to passed allowing toxic gas to be administered in public places?

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: GUEST,Michelle
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 04:09 PM

It is really unbelievable about the people who have posted messages mentioning all the other foul odors, too much perfume, sweat, body odor, bad breath, etc. but like Stringsinger said, "But none of these will kill you." He is right!
(Bath daily, use deodorant, brush your teeth/use mouth wash, wash your dirty clothes, etc.)

Although very offensive of course - none of those other things can effect another one's lungs (never heard of 2nd hand perfume, 2nd hand bad breathe,2nd hand sweat, effecting people's health to the extent that one can die from exposure as does 2nd hand smoke!)

I did try to find on-line anywhere where these other offensive odors can actually cause someone to get cancer as 2nd hand smoke does - but have not found any conclusive studies.

Smoking should be banned 100 % everywhere in this world. There is not anything beneficial that comes from smoking. It is a terrible, terrible habit.
Yes, I used to be a smoker too. Never heavy - about 4 or 5 cigarettes a day at the most but so glad that I quit in the early 1980's.
Geez, I don't any know how people can afford them nowadays!
Just think of the extra money one would have if they didn't smoke.
Wonder if smokers have ever tried to calculate what they spend a year on cigarettes? Probably not, but if one sat down and tried to get an actual figure as to the amount they spend on cigarettes a year would probably be astounded.   

I am glad that I live in a state where it is banned in all public places. Only place I have to sometimes be near smokers is at bus stops.I do my best to try and move some distance away but don't want to miss my bus either so I can only move so far away if someone at the bus stop is smoking. Of course there is no smoking allowed on public transportation and that includes E. cigarettes. where I live.

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 06:55 PM

the odour of sanctity is stifling

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 07:37 PM

Some of the arguments for tolerating smoking remind me of no pissing areas in a swimming pool.

Heheh. I remember Billy Connolly suggesting that a chemical could be added to swimming pools that would turn bright purple all round your arse area if you peed in the pool. Let those without sin... :-)

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Jack Campin
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 08:06 PM

never heard of 2nd hand perfume, 2nd hand bad breathe,2nd hand sweat, effecting people's health to the extent that one can die from exposure as does 2nd hand smoke!

I have, with perfume. Allergic anaphylaxis.

http://whatallergy.com/2012-02/please-dont-wear-perfume

http://www.examiner.com/article/perfume-allergies-can-be-the-sweet-smell-of-death

assault by perfume spray with a close to fatal outcome (PDF)

The likelihood of damage is probably less than with second-hand smoke, but when it happens it's a hell of a lot more dramatic.

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: GUEST,Michelle
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 08:50 PM

I think we have lost millions more people in this world who have died from smoking or 2nd hand smoke and long time suffering death - then from perfume - my dear father one of them from smoking.
   
Sorry, there is no comparison of perfume to the long term effects of cigarettes. I believe there are millions more people in this world - both men & woman who are smokers then people wearing too much perfume! "The likelihood of damage (from perfume) is probably less than with second-hand smoke." There is no "probably" here - damage from smoking and second-hand smoke IS THE ULTIMATE WORST THING!!

This is a post about smoking and second-hand smoke and seems like many are getting on the soap box talking about perfume, garlic, body odor - the likelihood of being exposed to these things in a club that permits smoking is many times less than those who are smoking.

When I used to go to music venues - smoking was by far outnumbered then people with those other problems. I can't recall people with body odors, or garlic or too much perfume at all. And I don't like those odors either but the problem of having to put up with smokers is far, far greater!

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 09:40 AM

I always regard a garlicky or oniony aroma about a person to be a sign that they love good food and enjoy a positive outlook on life. Easily the best way to avoid offence by onion or garlic aroma is to eat lots of onions and garlic yourself. You are then immune from others' breath and you'll live forever.

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 11:18 AM

Firstly I am NOT suggesting that perfume is as dangerous to health as cigarette smoke ............... however my wife reacts extremely to Lavender.

Blinding headaches, loss of vision, swelling of the throat, nausea, you name it, she gets it. She has had to seek medical intervention on numerous occasions and has even been hospitalised. We avoid Lavender and people who have Lavender on for obvious reasons.


Bit of a bugger really because I love the smell of Lavender!

Bit of a difference from getting a whiff of someone else's second hand smoke in the street though.

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: GUEST,HILO
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 11:42 AM

This NOT a thread about smoking in Public places or second hand smoke..it is about the "smell" of smokers. No one has advocated a return to smoking in public places, nor has anyone suggested that people be exposed to second hand smoke, you have clearly misread the opening post as well as many others.This is essentially about the pristine being exposed to the odour of the smokers among us. So far as can be determined , no one has died of the smell of smoke...however, many have been seriously injured by falling off thier high horse.

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Jack Campin
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 11:55 AM

Second/third hand smoke can cause allergic reactions as well, but they're a lot less common than perfume-induced ones.

I get such severe sneezing attacks from lemon-scented cleaning products that I had to warn the hospital ward I was in to ban them when I was there for a heart stent operation.

The reason you don't see as many complaints about perfume allergy as you do about tobacco pong is that people with serious perfume allergies don't dare go near places where they might get exposed to the stuff.

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 12:12 PM

HILO is right. This is a thread about objecting to the *smell of stale tobacco smoke on other peoples clothes*, not about inhaling second hand cigarette smoke.

As I said below, while I might remove myself from smoking in a closed space due to asthma and potential migraines, personally I find perfume to be far more unpleasant and invasive than the smell of stale smoke on other peoples clothes. Tailor made cigs are not nice smelling, but I find nothing at all especially unpleasant about wood smoke or old tobacco smoke from roll ups or cigars.

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Stringsinger
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 12:50 PM

Michelle is right. If you can smell it, it will hurt you.

Affirming life is not sanctimonious but attaching that label to those who cry out for health is
hypocritical.

I can't think of a single instance that smoking has ever helped a singer or musician.
In fact, in some cases, it was a gateway drug, even more that pot.

I wish that musicians would stop romanticizing tobacco and alcohol as if it made one damn bit of difference in the development of a musician, singer, or performer.

Addiction is the result of smoking. All kinds of rationalizations, just like any other addict, are given to defend tobacco use.

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 01:40 PM

I repeat....this is a thread about odours not about smoking...no one is defending tobacco use. Read the thread please.

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Musket
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 02:14 PM

I just read the thread.

Yes, she speaks of inhaling second hand tobacco. The smell of the person is also there, but the thread is about smoking.

I repeat. The thread is about smoking.



Check.

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 06:41 PM

The reason you don't see as many complaints about perfume allergy as you do about tobacco pong is that people with serious perfume allergies don't dare go near places where they might get exposed to the stuff.

When forced to by the missus (and one does has to comply at times, I find) I walk through the perfume dept of those department stores in order to get to whatever other bits of the shop we're supposed to be visiting. They always put the perfume dept just inside the entrance. I swoon and nearly die every time. Only the sight of the gorgeous young ladies peddling the perfumes helps me to survive.

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: GUEST,Tony Rath aka Tonyteach
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 08:36 PM

I am lucky I have never been a ciggy smoker. So I cannot take the ssmoral high ground here, however if plain chocolate Hobnob eaters were treated similarly I would be out in the cold and rain chewing away. I am just lucky that the smokes were not my addiction. I do not like second hand smoke and pubs are much better for being smoke free. My dad was a band leader in working mens clubs and at the weekend you could cut the atmosphere with a knife and serve it on butties. I am glad that has now gone

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 03:49 AM

the banning of smoking of e cigarettes is however ridiculous, it should be just tobacco that is banned but not herbal tobacco or e cigarettes, in my opinion it is not the smoke but what you are inhaling passively through the smoke, those things that cause bronchitis and lung cancer.

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Musket
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 08:07 AM

It's seeing cigarettes being stuck in your mouth by your role models. That's what encourages children to be the next generation of smokers. Not sure that e fags stop making smoking look acceptable to impressionable children.

I have mixed feelings about e fags. They contain addictive drugs so once PHE sponsored studies are completed, there will be a decision as to whether they remain freely open for sale or by prescription as a smoking cessation aid. (UK.)

On the other hand, they are an improvement for those in the vicinity of smokers.

Herbal tobacco is still unnecessarily something that irritates asthma and other bronchial condition sufferers and even the rest of us shouldn't have to move away to escape selfish people.

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: GUEST,MikeL2
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 02:38 PM

Hi

I have never smoked....not even one !!!

But being a semi-pro musician for most of my life I played in kinds of pubs, clubs etc like many others here.

In 1995 I was diagnosed with throat cancer and went through a terrible time but I survived through the treatment and am glad to say that the medics say I am completely free of the thing.

I believe it was through passive smoking and I am convinced that if I hadn't had been in the music game I would not have contacted cancer.

Even so I do not prevent friends and family ( or anyone else ) from smoking if they come to our home. But I do hate the smell and like others here these days I can detect a smoker from 50 yards away.

My wife's sister who lives in Spain came over to stay recently. She is a chain smoker and rolls her own these days. When we went out for meals or a drink she was up and down all the time. One night we had a taxi to a pub. It was only 10 minutes but she was first out of the taxi lighting up as she did so.

I can't say that I was sorry she went back home.

The best way to stop smoking is to not start!!!

Cheers

MikeL2

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: GUEST,MikeL2
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 02:45 PM

ps to my early post.

I notice in our small town there are three vapor parlours.

They are always busy and I notice lots of people of all ages walking around and in pubs; not restaurants... sucking on these things.

I really don't know anything about them. Do they have any of the bad effects of tobacco products...?

Cheers

MikeL2

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 03:27 PM

"Do they have any of the bad effects of tobacco products...?"
The jury's still out on that one Mike
Some experts claim they do if they're used in excess.
Someone came into our session with one a few weeks ago, and one of the old time hardened smokers asked him to smoke it outside as it made him uncomfortable
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 03:36 PM

Herbal tobacco is still unnecessarily something that irritates asthma and other bronchial condition sufferers and even the rest of us shouldn't have to move away to escape selfish people"

Herbal cigarettes are made of natural and organic ingredients.        Herbal cigarettes are made of natural and organic ingredients

    Marshmallow

       According to the University of Maryland Medical Center, the leaves and roots of marshmallow have been used for centuries as an herbal medicine. The scientific name for marshmallow is althea officinalis. It is believed to be beneficial for asthma, bronchitis and inflammatory bowel diseases. Marshmallow roots and leaves contain a gummy substance called mucilage, which is thought to relieve digestion issues by coating the stomach. Marshmallow is added to herbal cigarettes as a binding substance. Few scientific studies have been done on marshmallow, so it is recommended that you use it with caution.
    Ginseng

       Ginseng has been used for many centuries by Asian cultures as an antiviral remedy, immune stimulant and as a blood tonic. In Western medicine, ginseng is used in stress relief formulas and as an immune stimulant. Ginseng is also known as an adaptogen, meaning it increases resistance to physical, emotional and biological stress. This is why it is often sold in physical performance formulas for athletes. Ginseng was added to erectile dysfunction herbal formulas after various studies showed marginal improvements over placebos. It is added to herbal cigarettes as a flavor enhancer. Ginseng can interfere with blood thinners and certain heart medications, so use caution when smoking ginseng cigarettes.
    Cloves

       Cloves are the dried flower buds of the clove tree, and their health benefits have been known for centuries. Cloves are considered an aphrodisiac in China and Persia. They are also believed to be a powerful antibacterial, antiviral and antifungal remedy. Cloves were once used as a natural anesthetic and are still a popular treatment for toothaches in some Asian cultures. Cloves are used to add an exotic, spicy aroma to specialty brand herbal cigarettes.
    Mint

       According to Organic Facts, mint is most well known as a breath refresher. Scientifically known as menthe, mint is an herb with remarkable medicinal properties. Just the aroma of mint activates our salivary glands and causes an increase in the release of digestive enzymes. It is a powerful nausea remedy and has been used for many years as a decongestant for respiratory illnesses. Mint is added to herbal cigarettes for its aroma and its menthol-like taste for smokers who prefer menthol flavored tobacco products.
    Lemongrass

       Lemongrass is a tropical herb known for its lemon citrus fragrance and rose aroma. Lemongrass is a common ingredient in Thai and Indonesian cooking. It is often used as a medicinal herb for fever control, nausea and as a diuretic. Lemongrass is most popular for its use in citronella candles as an insect repellent. It is added to herbal cigarettes for its unique aroma and pleasant aftertaste.

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: GUEST,MikeL2
Date: 19 Apr 14 - 05:49 AM

Hi Jim

I agree about the being made to feel uncomfortable about people smoking these vapor things.

I went into town yesterday and once again the shops selling these things were packed and there were quite a number of people walking around the streets and the shops smoking them.

I sort of felt uncomfortable, but for the life of me I just cant see why.

Regards

Mike

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Apr 14 - 06:13 AM

"I sort of felt uncomfortable, but for the life of me I just cant see why."
I feel the same Mike.
When cigarettes came into general use there was no harm attached to them - in fact some of them were marketed as being health products - I've seen some of the early ads.
The industry has suppressed and is still suppressing researched facts pin-pointing the health risks of smoking - if you want to know what's what, you have to plough through often impenetrable journals to find whether you are likely to have your lungs into lace curtains.
I believe that, at the very least, these pseudo-cigarettes should not be made available until they have been full researched - the way cigarettes weren't
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 19 Apr 14 - 06:23 AM

I too remember tobacco and cigarette adverts in the early days of commercial TV, and you'd think they were God's gift to health.
Regarding herbal cigarettes, one is still inhaling smoke as the vector. Presumably the things are lit and burn to give off the smoke from the herbs. Any kind of combustion is carcinogenic if the products are inhaled. If people want to dice with death they can, just not anywhere me or my lungs thank you.

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Johnny J
Date: 19 Apr 14 - 06:43 AM

http://rememberwhen.gazettelive.co.uk/craven.jpg

Also "Cool as a mountain stream" Peter Styvesant

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Musket
Date: 19 Apr 14 - 06:58 AM

Herbal cigarettes are a health risk.

Er.. Not much to add really.


Full stop?

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: selby
Date: 19 Apr 14 - 07:13 AM

Nothing to do with smoking. Went to a session in a Gastro Pub the other night and never thought much about the smell of food coming from the kitchens. The following morning though our clothes and instruments smelt of cooking oil needless to say will not be going back.
Keith

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 19 Apr 14 - 07:30 AM

For the benefit of a rather thick, old lady behind the times, could someone be kind enough to explain to me about these electronic cigarettes and how they work? My husband went on a bus to London recently and said people were smoking plastic things 'with steam coming out'. And I'm sure I've heard they can explode or ignite or something. And what exactly do nicotine addicts get from these strange devices? I'd be most interested to learn all about them.

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Apr 14 - 08:32 AM

"The following morning though our clothes and instruments smelt of cooking oil needless to say will not be going back."
I know that feeling well and refuse to frequent restaurants or coofee shops like that.
I think that if all restaurants were like that we'd be in trouble.
Not so long ago, all pubs were like that and we had to put up with other peoples bad habits if we wanted a drink - thankfully - in Ireland at least, we no longer have to, and long may that continue to be the case.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: GUEST,Guest - Lin
Date: 20 Apr 14 - 01:26 AM

To MikeL 2

I'm trying to write a post but it accidently got submitted twice before I could write my message.
Anyway, I first wanted to say how sorry to hear what you had to go through after getting throat cancer. How terrible you had to suffer so much, but glad you seem to be better now.

I just have to kind of just shake my head thinking about how inconsiderate and thoughtless that your wife's sister is for smoking around you after all that you went through. You say that you do not prevent family or friends or anyone else from smoking at your home.

You are trying to be tolerant and accommodating for these family, friends, etc. when they should be thinking of what cigarette smoke did to you. Even though you do not prevent them from smoking if they so desire - THEY SHOULD REFRAIN FROM IT ANYWAY. How could people be so selfish as to smoke around you after what you went through?

How could your wife's sister just think about her own selfish desire to smoke even though you "do not prevent it." I know you probably don't want to make waves and be a good host and everything - but Mike you need to think about your health and really think about the long term effects and not allow it in your home at all. Your family and friends should be caring enough and NOT SMOKE NEAR YOU AT ALL even though you allow it. It is so wrong that people would think about their own selfish desires and not put you first when it comes to smoking around you. Especially what you had to go through DUE TO CIGARETTE SMOKE TAKING IT'S TOLL ON YOU. I know I am judging your wife's sister or other people who smoke around you when I do not know any one them. They may be very nice people - but Mike - they need to just consider your health and not just think about themselves and their terrible habit when they are at your home.
I am sorry for coming on so strong in this message but I just cannot believe people (your own family) can be so inconsiderate of you.

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 20 Apr 14 - 03:21 AM

I can understand it.

Drug addiction means the craving overtakes all other concerns. This is why less available drugs such as crack lead to the addicts resorting to crime to feed their habit.

Cigarettes are more available, that's all. The selfishness that comes from feeding your habit is there to be seen. Have a look at the awful website Forest, funded by the global drug pushers such as BAT, that lobbies to overturn public health measures in the interest of perpetuating addiction and lining the pockets of shareholders.

I too was rather shocked to hear Mike's experience.

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Apr 14 - 03:46 AM

If the tobacco industry was not as powerful as it is, and if the revenue it brought in, in the form of taxation was not as large as it is, I have no doubt that the sale of this lethal drug would have been banned long ago.
A smoking ban in public places is the teetering first step in taking control of something that has long been out-of-hand.
Its positive effects are reflected in health report figures - slowly, but surely....
There are now discussions on banning smoking in cars and in the presence of children - this latter is long, long overdue and perhaps should have been the first move.
Remembering the oppressive atmosphere in pubs and on public transport was like in my younger days in Liverpool and in Ireland, I was convinced that the ban wouldn't last five minutes - now, some of the loudest advocates of it are the hardened smokers.
My parents were both heavy smokers , so I understand the urge people have to smoke and the undeniable addictive nature of nicotine.
What I don't understand is why a vocal handful of those who are unfortunate enough to be hooked, feel it necessary to inflict their addiction on others.
Wonder if they could explain, rather than hiding behind Their "worse examples of pollution" - I'm sure a more rationally put case would attract more understanding and sympathy .
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Apr 14 - 04:27 AM

To put the matter of food and cooking smells in pubs and clubs into context - they were always there, wherever food was prepared and served. However, before the smoking ban, you didn't notice them on your clothes because they were masked by the even worse stench of other people's fags. Same thing applies with regard to dirty, unwashed buggers' BO.

It's a PITA that your clothes smell of food and cooking after a pub visit but, on the positive side, I never heard of anyone contracting lung-cancer from the smell of the sausage, egg and chips the guy at the next table was eating!

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 20 Apr 14 - 04:30 AM

It is difficult to put actual figures when dealing with goods entering the country without duty paid, but there is little evidence to suggest tobacco duty is enough to pay for anything. Some studies suggest the majority of those smoking larger quantities buy via a man with a van and regular trips to Calais.

I recall a few years ago, Drum was the most popular rolling tobacco but at the time, the Dutch company did not have a UK licence so every last but then was brought in and sold illegally. Available openly now, sadly.

A more reliable superlative is that tobacco is the root of over 35% of all NHS spending in England. That it is falling is due to a combination of bad diet and healthy people living longer so getting conditions late in life.

As England NHS budget is £108 billion, that would have to be a hell if a lot of duty to fund 35% of it.....





Such things are subjective but a quick look at treasury data on opengov website and a calculator suggests it funds 0.0004% of health spending.

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Apr 14 - 05:16 AM

Eliza, the real damage done by cigarettes is mostly from the tars which are created by the burning. The nicotine is relatively harmless, were it not for its addictive quality. Separate the two and you can noticeably diminish the risks: the electronic gaspers simply deliver nicotine released by warming, through the lungs, rather than through the skin as in nicotine patches.
The problem lies rather in the psychology involved. Retaining an inhaled form means the fag companies still have the habit entrenched for anyone wanting to go back to cigarettes to hook into more easily: I suspect it's linked to a nipple fixation, a very powerful hook because it's rooted so far back in our childhoods. If you want to break this finally - and Jim's case shows why it is so attractive economically - then you have to break every grip the murderers have on their victims. I won't use a lesser word for companies which know that every day what they do will kill hundreds of people, it makes them outrank any terrorist organisation, and the pain they cause in doing so places them somewhere up alongside the greatest mass-murderers in history. They have no moral case, and the cost to our entire society so far outweighs their profits that I can see no rational case for not banning the stuff outright, bar perhaps for those who have already been addicted doing cold turkey, weaning themselves off. The major reason so many who try fail is because cigarettes remain available as a temptation.
If you want to smoke, don't do so at my expense, please. Your ilk did enough blasting it in my face when I was young, and now charge the consequences to the taxpayer, which includes me. Those over 65 may have started smoking before this was known, so can just about claim ignorance, although 50 years resisting the data by not breaking the addiction and surviving the consequences is rather stretching the credit they may be able to claim. Those between 18 and 65 have started smoking in a period when it was clear what the risks were, and must be told to break the addiction. And let the cost of this be charged to the remaining asset value of the cigarette companies after liquidation. Finally, for those under 18, if they still want to smoke, require them to hold private health insurance for the rest of their lives for the consequences.

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 20 Apr 14 - 05:35 AM

You can contract gastric issues from the rumbling hunger it produces though :-)

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Apr 14 - 07:00 AM

Can't argue with that! :-)

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Stringsinger
Date: 20 Apr 14 - 08:33 AM

Just wanted to add that as a working musician, my first occupational hazard which has kept me out of the clubs and directly interfered with my livelihood is the poison of tobacco smoke.
Reading the autobiography of many famous songwriters I'm impressed that their life span
seems to be cut short of the their fiftieth birthdays. Irving Berlin, the only exception, seemed to defy the odds.

Why do you think that was? From what I've read, just two words. Tobacco and alcohol.

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 20 Apr 14 - 11:55 AM

All of my childhood I was subjected to my mother's heavy smoking. My place at the table was next to her and she had a cigarette going during the meal. We had power struggles when I refused to wash smelly ashtrays with the dishes. I moved out as soon as I could and never went back, because I hated the smoke.

Her addiction was strong. She was a really smart woman, but she ignored our requests that she not smoke in our bedrooms, in our presence. She alienated most of us with that behavior.

I have kept my fingers crossed my whole adult life that her smoking isn't lurking in the background to affect my health. No one is allowed to smoke in my house, they are welcome to go outside and I have a seating area they can use. I work on a no smoking campus, so when I smell smoke I've been known to walk over to the corner where the offender is sneaking a smoke and insisting they put it out. Yes. I'm still angry about it all.

I avoided bars, music venues, even restaurants for years because I hated being held captive by the smokers. One smoker can stink up a whole room for everyone else. Now most of those places are smoke-free, but I'm out of the habit of trying to go out to clubs.

SRS

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Janie
Date: 20 Apr 14 - 02:10 PM

This smoker doesn't smoke inside my own home, much less allow anyone else to. We smokers do not have the right to subject anyone else to our deadly and obnoxious addiction.

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 20 Apr 14 - 04:39 PM

that is thoughtful and gracious of you, Janie.

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Janie
Date: 20 Apr 14 - 05:29 PM

Thanks, pete, but it is neither thoughtful or gracious on my part. It is simply the fact of the matter.

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 20 Apr 14 - 07:08 PM

"Cool as a mountain stream" was Consulate mentholated cigarettes not Peter Stuyvesant. You can still buy them.
I gave up halfway through my first pregnancy 38 years ago: had my last one at a family wedding. The link between lung cancer and smoking had been published in a paper by Sir Richard Doll in 1954, and other risks, such as the pregnant woman and her unborn child, emerged thereafter.
I can only echo what many have said above about hating coming home from any social gathering reeking of smoke and having to wash everything including hair. It may have driven some smokers away from attending such places, but has attracted back some who stayed away as they couldn't tolerate the smoke. Most of our friends and family are non-smokers, but on the rare occasion that we have had a smoker stay with us, we have just mentioned politely that our house is a no smoking area and guests have equally politely accepted and adhered to that. My father-in-law used to make regular excuses to go and "inspect the garden" although on one particularly cold day he was caught blowing smoke up our chimney, hoping that no-one would notice!

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Apr 14 - 03:04 AM

Since we moved to Ireland we have taken the opportunity t visit some of the places we only managed to drive through over the last 40 years, West Cork, West Kerry, Donegal, Connemara, rural Ulster.... - a wonderful experience and highly recommended for those who haven't.
One of the great joys since the smoking ban has been to stay in hotels and guest houses where the furniture, curtains, carpets and bedding don't reek of weeks and weeks of past smoking.
In the past, booking a 'non-smoking' room has often meant the proprietors hanging a 'no-smoking' sign on the door of any old room - now, whole sections of these places are designated as permanent no-smoking areas and some places are entirely 'smoke-free' buildings: utter bliss - fresh air at last.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 21 Apr 14 - 04:31 AM

A few years ago I used to do WRVS voluntary work twice a week in the Norfolk & Norwich University Hospital. I pushed a sweets/newspapers trolley around the wards on one shift, and served in the WRVS shop on a Saturday evening on the other shift. The hospital (as all in UK now) has a total no-smoking policy everywhere, even outside the doors. What used to amaze me on arrival in the car park was the number of ciggy addict patients in their pyjamas, bandaged, in plaster, tottering about, some even wheeling drip-stands along behind them, smoking frantically to make up for the hours of abstinence on the wards. Even in the rain, the wind, sleet - there they were. The number of patients, visitors, staff that used to ask us in the shop if we sold cigarettes was astonishing. (Of course we didn't!) The look in their eyes said it all - "No 'fix', no relief from the craving - what shall I do now?"
I later did work with prisoners, some of whom were heroin addicts. The same look in their eyes was there. (I was once or twice even asked if I could smuggle some 'brown' in for them!) The government should do all in its power to stop the sale of tobacco products completely. The lost revenue would surely be regained by the decrease in NHS costs over time.

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Johnny J
Date: 21 Apr 14 - 04:44 AM

Worth hearing this one again.....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kO1nCuVQIeg&feature=player_detailpage

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 21 Apr 14 - 04:52 AM

The hospital where my office is based refused to have a healthcare assistant spend time taking a man out for a cigarette. He took legal action and although he lost, (gave up on the morning of the court hearing starting ) his lack of assets meant The NHS was stuck with a £12k legal bill.

One aspect of this addiction that galls me is running the gauntlet each morning of smokers attached to drips or in wheel chairs with legs missing. Even in winter. Prolonging their stay in many cases, making less capacity for new patients. We really do need to recall the Bevan aims of The NHS. It can only work if people take responsibility for their health.

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Apr 14 - 05:51 AM

"Worth hearing this one again.."
Wonderful Johnny - I've missed Newhart since he became a 'comedian'.
Eliza.
You brought back memories of a local, rather picturesque cottage hospital here which I attended for a time for some physio a few years ago.
It adopted a no-smoking policy before the ban came out, but built a smoking annex over the main entrance, so all visitors entering the building were forced to pass through a greenhouse like, smoke-filled structure in order to enter the building.
Talk about lunatics running the asylum!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 21 Apr 14 - 06:26 AM

Yes, hotels and guest houses here have the smoking ban too, but at one place we stayed, the rooms and corridors were festooned with no smoking signs - but the proprietor would go for a smoke outside her back door - right under our open bathroom window!
It us illegal to smoke in bus shelters here, but that seems to be ignored by some.

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Johnny J
Date: 21 Apr 14 - 06:47 AM

Smoke, smoke, smoke that cigarette

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=b_Tjyry5rKA

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Apr 14 - 06:51 AM

"It us illegal to smoke in bus shelters here, but that seems to be ignored by some."
I've always assumed you're a 'Jimmy'
Is it low like that all over Scotland?
Glasgow??
Jeeze - never thought I'd live that long!!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Johnny J
Date: 21 Apr 14 - 06:52 AM

I'd love it it this smoker came back to our club. Sadly, it can't be.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=EIXzgWwFqBo

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 21 Apr 14 - 06:54 AM

That's the gauntlet I run through each and every
Morning. More specifically so do patients attending clinics and A&E.

The more no smoking signs you put up, the more gets blown in the face literally of anybody who looks like they could be management. Smoking rates are rather high in this particular city, compared to the national average. The local newspaper had an article last year condemning the hospital trust for having a clampdown and security telling them to not smoke. It took a letter from the chief constable to point out that in hospital grounds it is a criminal offence and the hospital trust is obliged.

A large shopping mall we occasionally go to includes running the gauntlet of a bridge from the car park with no smoking signs and dozens of selfish addicts on the bridge creating a smog for respectable people to wall through whilst holding their breath.

Fascinating. Addiction and it's effect on otherwise rational people.

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Stringsinger
Date: 21 Apr 14 - 10:37 AM

SRS, your experience with clubs echoes mine. I won't support them. Artists who insist on a smoking environment, I don't care how talented they are, don't deserve support for inculcating a destructive health pattern and inflicting it on others.

It's not fair to have non-smokers subjected to outside-the-door smokers who make entries into establishments miserable.

I have been penalized as a lover of jazz and folk by not seeing live performers because they are in a toxic environment.

Maybe this is one reason folk clubs are going down the tubes, at least here in the States.

Why is it that music must be identified with alcohol and tobacco, a prison chain of
destruction of mind and body?

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 21 Apr 14 - 12:42 PM

I went to see a friend perform at a club a dozen years ago and there was one woman at the next table smoking. It would just begin to clear out again and she'd light up. When I got home I tossed my clothes into the washer, took a shower to get the smoke out of my hair and out of my eyes and nose. A lot of us politely suffered, no one feeling comfortable enough to ask her to take it outside, though I wish I had.

Janie, if you can quit, you'll feel better, no soap box here. And by smoking outside you keep your house a lot easier to live in or visit, and if you decide to sell, much easier to quickly put on the market. When my mother's house was going up for sale she had a cleaning crew come in and wash down all of the painted surfaces. We had a high gloss enamel on the walls and ceiling in the kitchen and were astonished to see that the room was originally painted a very light eggshell white. We had been looking at ochre walls not realizing how much they were smoke stained.

SRS

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: GUEST,squeezy
Date: 21 Apr 14 - 04:25 PM

A few thoughts ...

We are in a far better place now after the smoking ban in the UK - it's just common sense.

The smell of someone who smokes may be unpleasant to someone who doesn't - just as offensive as bad wind, body odour or some kind of downstairs infection ... and one should find a way to deal with the problem of a smell they don't like in the way they normally would! The mere smell of stale smoke does not constitute a health risk.

Nicotine in itself carries a similar heath risk as caffeine does - it is definitely the combustion by-products that are the main causes of health concerns with smoking.

Regarding people finding e-cigarette use uncomfortable because of the risk of normalising inhaled nicotine products - can I draw an analogy with singing songs about hunting foxes and whales? Just because something is traditional doesn't mean it is good ... but it doesn't mean it needs to be banned too if it is no longer harmful - and by preserving cultural links with our past we retain a knowledge of where we've come from. I think that singing is a more valuable link to the past than drug-taking rituals ... but if neither harms anyone then it is probably better to stop trying to intervene in other people's lives.

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: GUEST,Guest - Lin
Date: 21 Apr 14 - 09:33 PM

I was waiting at a bus stop in Burbank, California in 1997 and there was an elderly man (looked to be in his mid-80s) hooked up to an oxygen machine standing near me at this bus stop.
It was a fairly large oxygen machine. HE WAS SMOKING!! I just couldn't believe it. I had to take a second look but there he was smoking away and I could hear the sound of the machine that was helping him to breathe. Perhaps he figured he was on his last leg - and just didn't care anymore. It was really a horrible thing to see though.
A vivid memory that has stayed with me for 17 years.

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Apr 14 - 02:31 AM

"We had been looking at ochre walls not realizing how much they were smoke stained."
I worked for seven years in London as a maintenance electrician for a firm whic received the bulk of its work from one of the major English Breweries.
We were working in a Victorian pub in central London, entirely renovating it back to its former glory.
The painters were washing down the beautiful embossed ceiling, removing the layers of grime, mainly nicotine that had accumulated there in over a century, when one of them scrambled down from his platform clutching his face, which had been splashed by some of the liquid soap and water (first step in the process) dripping down from above.
He was in considerable pain, which gradually got worse, and after about an hour it became obvious that is was serious, so someone drove him to the local hospital A&E department.
We learned later that, thanks to the nicotine content of what had splashed into his eye, he lost the sight of it - it had literally burned a hole in it.
If you examined the ceilings of the old pubs in those days, especially the embossed ones, you would see that they were covered with small bubbles of hardened liquid - a mixture of natural condensation and nicotine.
Nasty stuff!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 22 Apr 14 - 03:21 AM

Guest Lin, how horrifying! And I imagine very dangerous, as oxygen administered like this can explode if a burning cigarette ignites it.
Addicts don't care because their lives are already forfeit. We often see a pitiable young chap sitting on the pavement in Norwich's main shopping street, The reason he's sitting is he has had a leg amputated. It became gangrenous due to infected veins repeatedly injected with heroin. The reason he's begging is he needs £10 for a fix. I've seen him leap up onto his crutches and hop away to buy it when a kindly-intentioned person has given him money. The reason I know his story is that I heard it from an inmate in Norwich Prison. The poor chap is well-known. I refuse to give him money but I do buy him a packet of sandwiches and a carton of coffee. He never looks very pleased though. Heroin is all he wants.

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 22 Apr 14 - 03:41 AM

Musket re Apr 21 at 06.54

"and dozens of selfish addicts on the bridge creating a smog for respectable people to wall (sic) though while holding their breath"

So those who smoke have no respectability do they. No doubt they will all eventually turn to crime and become rapists, killers or bank-robbers.

Time for a reality check me thinks.

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 22 Apr 14 - 05:10 AM

This thread has gone on long enough, come to an end.

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 22 Apr 14 - 05:14 AM

Guest, if this thread has gone on long enough for you, I suggest you stop coming to it and go to another thread which pleases you more. Some of us may like to continue, but IMO that's not for you to dictate.

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Apr 14 - 06:25 AM

He's just trying to have the thread stubbed out. :-)

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Susan B
Date: 22 Apr 14 - 07:27 AM

I grew up in a smoking household. Always found it unpleasant, and always noticed the smell every time I came home. So, I've welcomed the ban.

With regards to smokers, I find that what I feel about them entirely depends on the person that they are. I have a number of very good friends that smoke, some heavily. Those who go outside, stand a reasonable distance from the door are fine. I just try not to go too near them for a while after they come back in :-) I'd rather they didn't smoke, because they are my friends and we seem to have lost enough already.

But those people who seem to have a sort of attitude problem - "I'll do what I want, when I want to, and f*** the rest of you"? Those are the people who deliberately take one last deep drag before they come back in, to blow over as many people as they can; or open the doors and stand right next to them breathing smoke into the room. Interestingly, I don't find that anyone that I count as a friend does that, probably because the attitude comes out in other spheres?

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 22 Apr 14 - 07:31 AM

Mudcat is for musicians, historians and enthusiasts that collect and discuss traditional folk and blues songs, folklore,lyrics etc and in this thread I read or see no mention of such. If you want to discuss smoking, which I do detest, go to some health website and lets discuss as stated. Enough is enough.

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Apr 14 - 07:42 AM

Guest
Please mind your own business or become a member and make your point
This forum is a music site which caters for all interests
Smoking is very relevant to those who attend music performances, as much a it would be on a cinema or theatre site.
"He's just trying to have the thread stubbed out. :"
Obviously needs to nip out for a fag to calm his nerves!
Or maybe a quick walk in the F.O.R.E.S.T.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: GUEST,Eddy
Date: 22 Apr 14 - 08:26 AM

"Cool as a mountain stream" was the slogan for Cosulate menthol cigarettes See here

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Apr 14 - 08:53 AM

27½p for 20! When was that? I find by googling that cigs cost about 46p each nowadays.

Blimey!!!!!

I have said since I gave up that the anti-smoking ads, as well as showing all these diseased organs, should show all those empty wallets. But I didn't realise quite how apeshit the prices had gone!

~M~

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Apr 14 - 09:12 AM

To be precise, having just googled that same brand, Consulate Menthol, I find the current supermarket price is 42·8p per single cigarette.

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Apr 14 - 10:37 AM

What's interesting is that you seem to have a number of Guests who are not massively out of agreement with each other and none of whom feel you have yet earned the right to expect us to identify ourselves...

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Apr 14 - 10:39 AM

What's interesting about that, O Mystery Guest? What your point, exackerly?

~M~

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: GUEST,MikeL2
Date: 22 Apr 14 - 11:14 AM

Hi Lin

Many thanks for your kind comments.

I said that I don't object to people smoking in the home.
However I may have given a wrong impression of my sister-in-law. She does not smoke in our home. She is aware of my history of cancer and she doesn't smoke actually in the house. She goes into the garden.
Furthermore all of our family and friends are also aware and the couple of them that do, don't smoke inside the house.

But because of my sister-in-law's chain smoking habit there is always a strong smell of smoke around her.

Thank you for your warnings and advice.

Kind Regards

Mike

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 22 Apr 14 - 12:43 PM

its not a funny subject, but I did laugh at your jokes, steve and jim.

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 23 Apr 14 - 05:01 AM

Jimmy Carroll
From yr expert knowledge on smoking you must or have been a smoker yourself. I attend many folk clubs and festivals and am in fact a singer at these.
All the venues I attend are smoke free and are stipulated so, I'm always on the look out for new songs to sing and seemingly you are the guy who must have a few songs up your sleeve related to smoking which you could share with all readers. Feel free to supply and we could then get back onto what this site is for, music, lyrics, advice and knowledge to others.

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Musket
Date: 23 Apr 14 - 05:26 AM

I was in our local pub on Sunday night. The story doing the rounds was that of a local Councillor who had been making noises about whether the smoking shack in the beer garden constituted inside or not, and had informed the gaffer he would object at the next licensing session if the sides weren't removed.

He was in on Saturday night and had "downed a few" according to the gaffer. He was being taunted over his threat to oppose the next licence so he went outside, into the smoking shack, onto a table, opened his flies and had a piss in an ashtray.

What is ironic about that is that now he is barred, he would have to declare an interest and not sit in judgement at the next licensing session.

Still, got to admire the bugger......

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Apr 14 - 05:31 AM

Bob Newhart: Introducing tobacco to civilisation
Tom Lehrer: Masochism Tango
Sheila Hancock: My Last Cigarette(Sydney Carter)

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Apr 14 - 05:42 AM

"From yr expert knowledge on smoking you must or have been a smoker yourself."
Not guilty - I watched my parents lungs turned into lace curtains and decided it was not for me.
I take it that you, as a Guest, are objecting to Mudcat having a non-music section - why not become a member and write to 'im upstairs' - and maybe tell us who you really are.
Only close my family call me 'Jimmy' - Mister will do very nicely, thank you.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 23 Apr 14 - 08:59 PM

I'm no a Jimmy either. And I beat Eddy to it on the Consulate (and I can spell it!)
Oh, and only illegal in SOME bus shelters: depends how open or enclosed they are, but the illegal ones will tell you so 'tis.
At one time in my life, I attended a lot of post mortems: black tarry lungs from the smokers, just like the pics they now put on Aussie cigarette packets.

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Stringsinger
Date: 24 Apr 14 - 11:44 AM

Since smoking and second-hand smoke is an occupational hazard for musicians, it is
entirely appropriate for it to be discussed here, despite some intrusion by an outside
GUESTguest who has no business here unless it reveals who it is.

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Apr 14 - 01:32 PM

It's just been announced here in Ireland that the use of E-cigarettes have been banned on hospital premised by the Health Authorities because of concerns about health risks
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: GUEST,MikeL2
Date: 24 Apr 14 - 02:45 PM

Hi

With all the talk of E cigarettes thought this might be of interest.

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/business/radcliffe-based-e-cigarette-firm-vip-been-7018006

Sorry didn't manage to produce blue clicky....doh

Cheers

MikeL2

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 24 Apr 14 - 03:51 PM

Mr Stringsinger, I feel you are bending the truth more than a little.

Smoking is NOT an "occupational hazard" for musicians and nor has it been since the introduction of the smoking ban around seven years ago.

(Scotland 26th March 2006,Wales 2nd April 2007,Northern Ireland 30th April 2007, England 1st July 2007)

Ireland introduced their ban on smoking in public places on 29th March 2004.

While you, and many others who have contributed to this discussion, may not condone smoking, nor like the smell of stale smoke on the people around you (and I do appreciate that having been both a smoker and a non smoker)would you all please deal with facts not fiction.

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Apr 14 - 06:34 PM

Hi

With all the talk of E cigarettes thought this might be of interest.

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/business/radcliffe-based-e-cigarette-firm-vip-been-7018006

Sorry didn't manage to produce blue clicky....doh

Cheers

MikeL2

Coo, as a Radcliffe lad I found meself clicking on that one!

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Stringsinger
Date: 25 Apr 14 - 03:35 PM

GuestRaggyTash, you must be working for the cigarette companies. As to factual data,
there is plenty of it available through medical channels to show its harmful effects; the fiction that you mention is the denial that smokers insist on having when they can't
pollute the environment.

As to the occupational hazards I've mentioned, there are enough case histories of not only musicians who have had lung and asthma problems associated with second hand smoke, but a major reason due to the health of airline in-flight people that smoking is banned from most airplanes.

I suggest that you check the facts. Ask your doctor about smoking and its effects.

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 05 May 14 - 06:49 AM

Stringsinger you made a clear statement that "since smoking second hand smoke is an occupational hazard for musicians ....."

That statement is incorrect. I repeat it is not an occupational hazard for musicians, nor has it been since 2007.

I do not argue that smoking has harmful effects or that musicians who played in pubs and clubs prior to 2007 may have suffered negative effects from passive/second hand smoke. However the truth of the matter is that (non-smoking)musicians are no longer subject to such hazards.

Fact, my friend, fact.