Smokers in clubs

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 05 May 14 - 06:49 AM

Stringsinger you made a clear statement that "since smoking second hand smoke is an occupational hazard for musicians ....."

That statement is incorrect. I repeat it is not an occupational hazard for musicians, nor has it been since 2007.

I do not argue that smoking has harmful effects or that musicians who played in pubs and clubs prior to 2007 may have suffered negative effects from passive/second hand smoke. However the truth of the matter is that (non-smoking)musicians are no longer subject to such hazards.

Fact, my friend, fact.

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Stringsinger
Date: 25 Apr 14 - 03:35 PM

GuestRaggyTash, you must be working for the cigarette companies. As to factual data,
there is plenty of it available through medical channels to show its harmful effects; the fiction that you mention is the denial that smokers insist on having when they can't
pollute the environment.

As to the occupational hazards I've mentioned, there are enough case histories of not only musicians who have had lung and asthma problems associated with second hand smoke, but a major reason due to the health of airline in-flight people that smoking is banned from most airplanes.

I suggest that you check the facts. Ask your doctor about smoking and its effects.

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Apr 14 - 06:34 PM

Hi

With all the talk of E cigarettes thought this might be of interest.

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/business/radcliffe-based-e-cigarette-firm-vip-been-7018006

Sorry didn't manage to produce blue clicky....doh

Cheers

MikeL2

Coo, as a Radcliffe lad I found meself clicking on that one!

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 24 Apr 14 - 03:51 PM

Mr Stringsinger, I feel you are bending the truth more than a little.

Smoking is NOT an "occupational hazard" for musicians and nor has it been since the introduction of the smoking ban around seven years ago.

(Scotland 26th March 2006,Wales 2nd April 2007,Northern Ireland 30th April 2007, England 1st July 2007)

Ireland introduced their ban on smoking in public places on 29th March 2004.

While you, and many others who have contributed to this discussion, may not condone smoking, nor like the smell of stale smoke on the people around you (and I do appreciate that having been both a smoker and a non smoker)would you all please deal with facts not fiction.

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: GUEST,MikeL2
Date: 24 Apr 14 - 02:45 PM

Hi

With all the talk of E cigarettes thought this might be of interest.

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/business/radcliffe-based-e-cigarette-firm-vip-been-7018006

Sorry didn't manage to produce blue clicky....doh

Cheers

MikeL2

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Apr 14 - 01:32 PM

It's just been announced here in Ireland that the use of E-cigarettes have been banned on hospital premised by the Health Authorities because of concerns about health risks
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Stringsinger
Date: 24 Apr 14 - 11:44 AM

Since smoking and second-hand smoke is an occupational hazard for musicians, it is
entirely appropriate for it to be discussed here, despite some intrusion by an outside
GUESTguest who has no business here unless it reveals who it is.

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 23 Apr 14 - 08:59 PM

I'm no a Jimmy either. And I beat Eddy to it on the Consulate (and I can spell it!)
Oh, and only illegal in SOME bus shelters: depends how open or enclosed they are, but the illegal ones will tell you so 'tis.
At one time in my life, I attended a lot of post mortems: black tarry lungs from the smokers, just like the pics they now put on Aussie cigarette packets.

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Apr 14 - 05:42 AM

"From yr expert knowledge on smoking you must or have been a smoker yourself."
Not guilty - I watched my parents lungs turned into lace curtains and decided it was not for me.
I take it that you, as a Guest, are objecting to Mudcat having a non-music section - why not become a member and write to 'im upstairs' - and maybe tell us who you really are.
Only close my family call me 'Jimmy' - Mister will do very nicely, thank you.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Apr 14 - 05:31 AM

Bob Newhart: Introducing tobacco to civilisation
Tom Lehrer: Masochism Tango
Sheila Hancock: My Last Cigarette(Sydney Carter)

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Musket
Date: 23 Apr 14 - 05:26 AM

I was in our local pub on Sunday night. The story doing the rounds was that of a local Councillor who had been making noises about whether the smoking shack in the beer garden constituted inside or not, and had informed the gaffer he would object at the next licensing session if the sides weren't removed.

He was in on Saturday night and had "downed a few" according to the gaffer. He was being taunted over his threat to oppose the next licence so he went outside, into the smoking shack, onto a table, opened his flies and had a piss in an ashtray.

What is ironic about that is that now he is barred, he would have to declare an interest and not sit in judgement at the next licensing session.

Still, got to admire the bugger......

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 23 Apr 14 - 05:01 AM

Jimmy Carroll
From yr expert knowledge on smoking you must or have been a smoker yourself. I attend many folk clubs and festivals and am in fact a singer at these.
All the venues I attend are smoke free and are stipulated so, I'm always on the look out for new songs to sing and seemingly you are the guy who must have a few songs up your sleeve related to smoking which you could share with all readers. Feel free to supply and we could then get back onto what this site is for, music, lyrics, advice and knowledge to others.

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 22 Apr 14 - 12:43 PM

its not a funny subject, but I did laugh at your jokes, steve and jim.

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: GUEST,MikeL2
Date: 22 Apr 14 - 11:14 AM

Hi Lin

Many thanks for your kind comments.

I said that I don't object to people smoking in the home.
However I may have given a wrong impression of my sister-in-law. She does not smoke in our home. She is aware of my history of cancer and she doesn't smoke actually in the house. She goes into the garden.
Furthermore all of our family and friends are also aware and the couple of them that do, don't smoke inside the house.

But because of my sister-in-law's chain smoking habit there is always a strong smell of smoke around her.

Thank you for your warnings and advice.

Kind Regards

Mike

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Apr 14 - 10:39 AM

What's interesting about that, O Mystery Guest? What your point, exackerly?

~M~

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Apr 14 - 10:37 AM

What's interesting is that you seem to have a number of Guests who are not massively out of agreement with each other and none of whom feel you have yet earned the right to expect us to identify ourselves...

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Apr 14 - 09:12 AM

To be precise, having just googled that same brand, Consulate Menthol, I find the current supermarket price is 42·8p per single cigarette.

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Apr 14 - 08:53 AM

27½p for 20! When was that? I find by googling that cigs cost about 46p each nowadays.

Blimey!!!!!

I have said since I gave up that the anti-smoking ads, as well as showing all these diseased organs, should show all those empty wallets. But I didn't realise quite how apeshit the prices had gone!

~M~

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: GUEST,Eddy
Date: 22 Apr 14 - 08:26 AM

"Cool as a mountain stream" was the slogan for Cosulate menthol cigarettes See here

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Apr 14 - 07:42 AM

Guest
Please mind your own business or become a member and make your point
This forum is a music site which caters for all interests
Smoking is very relevant to those who attend music performances, as much a it would be on a cinema or theatre site.
"He's just trying to have the thread stubbed out. :"
Obviously needs to nip out for a fag to calm his nerves!
Or maybe a quick walk in the F.O.R.E.S.T.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 22 Apr 14 - 07:31 AM

Mudcat is for musicians, historians and enthusiasts that collect and discuss traditional folk and blues songs, folklore,lyrics etc and in this thread I read or see no mention of such. If you want to discuss smoking, which I do detest, go to some health website and lets discuss as stated. Enough is enough.

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Susan B
Date: 22 Apr 14 - 07:27 AM

I grew up in a smoking household. Always found it unpleasant, and always noticed the smell every time I came home. So, I've welcomed the ban.

With regards to smokers, I find that what I feel about them entirely depends on the person that they are. I have a number of very good friends that smoke, some heavily. Those who go outside, stand a reasonable distance from the door are fine. I just try not to go too near them for a while after they come back in :-) I'd rather they didn't smoke, because they are my friends and we seem to have lost enough already.

But those people who seem to have a sort of attitude problem - "I'll do what I want, when I want to, and f*** the rest of you"? Those are the people who deliberately take one last deep drag before they come back in, to blow over as many people as they can; or open the doors and stand right next to them breathing smoke into the room. Interestingly, I don't find that anyone that I count as a friend does that, probably because the attitude comes out in other spheres?

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Apr 14 - 06:25 AM

He's just trying to have the thread stubbed out. :-)

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 22 Apr 14 - 05:14 AM

Guest, if this thread has gone on long enough for you, I suggest you stop coming to it and go to another thread which pleases you more. Some of us may like to continue, but IMO that's not for you to dictate.

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 22 Apr 14 - 05:10 AM

This thread has gone on long enough, come to an end.

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 22 Apr 14 - 03:41 AM

Musket re Apr 21 at 06.54

"and dozens of selfish addicts on the bridge creating a smog for respectable people to wall (sic) though while holding their breath"

So those who smoke have no respectability do they. No doubt they will all eventually turn to crime and become rapists, killers or bank-robbers.

Time for a reality check me thinks.

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 22 Apr 14 - 03:21 AM

Guest Lin, how horrifying! And I imagine very dangerous, as oxygen administered like this can explode if a burning cigarette ignites it.
Addicts don't care because their lives are already forfeit. We often see a pitiable young chap sitting on the pavement in Norwich's main shopping street, The reason he's sitting is he has had a leg amputated. It became gangrenous due to infected veins repeatedly injected with heroin. The reason he's begging is he needs £10 for a fix. I've seen him leap up onto his crutches and hop away to buy it when a kindly-intentioned person has given him money. The reason I know his story is that I heard it from an inmate in Norwich Prison. The poor chap is well-known. I refuse to give him money but I do buy him a packet of sandwiches and a carton of coffee. He never looks very pleased though. Heroin is all he wants.

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Apr 14 - 02:31 AM

"We had been looking at ochre walls not realizing how much they were smoke stained."
I worked for seven years in London as a maintenance electrician for a firm whic received the bulk of its work from one of the major English Breweries.
We were working in a Victorian pub in central London, entirely renovating it back to its former glory.
The painters were washing down the beautiful embossed ceiling, removing the layers of grime, mainly nicotine that had accumulated there in over a century, when one of them scrambled down from his platform clutching his face, which had been splashed by some of the liquid soap and water (first step in the process) dripping down from above.
He was in considerable pain, which gradually got worse, and after about an hour it became obvious that is was serious, so someone drove him to the local hospital A&E department.
We learned later that, thanks to the nicotine content of what had splashed into his eye, he lost the sight of it - it had literally burned a hole in it.
If you examined the ceilings of the old pubs in those days, especially the embossed ones, you would see that they were covered with small bubbles of hardened liquid - a mixture of natural condensation and nicotine.
Nasty stuff!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: GUEST,Guest - Lin
Date: 21 Apr 14 - 09:33 PM

I was waiting at a bus stop in Burbank, California in 1997 and there was an elderly man (looked to be in his mid-80s) hooked up to an oxygen machine standing near me at this bus stop.
It was a fairly large oxygen machine. HE WAS SMOKING!! I just couldn't believe it. I had to take a second look but there he was smoking away and I could hear the sound of the machine that was helping him to breathe. Perhaps he figured he was on his last leg - and just didn't care anymore. It was really a horrible thing to see though.
A vivid memory that has stayed with me for 17 years.

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: GUEST,squeezy
Date: 21 Apr 14 - 04:25 PM

A few thoughts ...

We are in a far better place now after the smoking ban in the UK - it's just common sense.

The smell of someone who smokes may be unpleasant to someone who doesn't - just as offensive as bad wind, body odour or some kind of downstairs infection ... and one should find a way to deal with the problem of a smell they don't like in the way they normally would! The mere smell of stale smoke does not constitute a health risk.

Nicotine in itself carries a similar heath risk as caffeine does - it is definitely the combustion by-products that are the main causes of health concerns with smoking.

Regarding people finding e-cigarette use uncomfortable because of the risk of normalising inhaled nicotine products - can I draw an analogy with singing songs about hunting foxes and whales? Just because something is traditional doesn't mean it is good ... but it doesn't mean it needs to be banned too if it is no longer harmful - and by preserving cultural links with our past we retain a knowledge of where we've come from. I think that singing is a more valuable link to the past than drug-taking rituals ... but if neither harms anyone then it is probably better to stop trying to intervene in other people's lives.

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 21 Apr 14 - 12:42 PM

I went to see a friend perform at a club a dozen years ago and there was one woman at the next table smoking. It would just begin to clear out again and she'd light up. When I got home I tossed my clothes into the washer, took a shower to get the smoke out of my hair and out of my eyes and nose. A lot of us politely suffered, no one feeling comfortable enough to ask her to take it outside, though I wish I had.

Janie, if you can quit, you'll feel better, no soap box here. And by smoking outside you keep your house a lot easier to live in or visit, and if you decide to sell, much easier to quickly put on the market. When my mother's house was going up for sale she had a cleaning crew come in and wash down all of the painted surfaces. We had a high gloss enamel on the walls and ceiling in the kitchen and were astonished to see that the room was originally painted a very light eggshell white. We had been looking at ochre walls not realizing how much they were smoke stained.

SRS

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Stringsinger
Date: 21 Apr 14 - 10:37 AM

SRS, your experience with clubs echoes mine. I won't support them. Artists who insist on a smoking environment, I don't care how talented they are, don't deserve support for inculcating a destructive health pattern and inflicting it on others.

It's not fair to have non-smokers subjected to outside-the-door smokers who make entries into establishments miserable.

I have been penalized as a lover of jazz and folk by not seeing live performers because they are in a toxic environment.

Maybe this is one reason folk clubs are going down the tubes, at least here in the States.

Why is it that music must be identified with alcohol and tobacco, a prison chain of
destruction of mind and body?

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 21 Apr 14 - 06:54 AM

That's the gauntlet I run through each and every
Morning. More specifically so do patients attending clinics and A&E.

The more no smoking signs you put up, the more gets blown in the face literally of anybody who looks like they could be management. Smoking rates are rather high in this particular city, compared to the national average. The local newspaper had an article last year condemning the hospital trust for having a clampdown and security telling them to not smoke. It took a letter from the chief constable to point out that in hospital grounds it is a criminal offence and the hospital trust is obliged.

A large shopping mall we occasionally go to includes running the gauntlet of a bridge from the car park with no smoking signs and dozens of selfish addicts on the bridge creating a smog for respectable people to wall through whilst holding their breath.

Fascinating. Addiction and it's effect on otherwise rational people.

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Johnny J
Date: 21 Apr 14 - 06:52 AM

I'd love it it this smoker came back to our club. Sadly, it can't be.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=EIXzgWwFqBo

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Apr 14 - 06:51 AM

"It us illegal to smoke in bus shelters here, but that seems to be ignored by some."
I've always assumed you're a 'Jimmy'
Is it low like that all over Scotland?
Glasgow??
Jeeze - never thought I'd live that long!!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Johnny J
Date: 21 Apr 14 - 06:47 AM

Smoke, smoke, smoke that cigarette

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=b_Tjyry5rKA

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 21 Apr 14 - 06:26 AM

Yes, hotels and guest houses here have the smoking ban too, but at one place we stayed, the rooms and corridors were festooned with no smoking signs - but the proprietor would go for a smoke outside her back door - right under our open bathroom window!
It us illegal to smoke in bus shelters here, but that seems to be ignored by some.

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Apr 14 - 05:51 AM

"Worth hearing this one again.."
Wonderful Johnny - I've missed Newhart since he became a 'comedian'.
Eliza.
You brought back memories of a local, rather picturesque cottage hospital here which I attended for a time for some physio a few years ago.
It adopted a no-smoking policy before the ban came out, but built a smoking annex over the main entrance, so all visitors entering the building were forced to pass through a greenhouse like, smoke-filled structure in order to enter the building.
Talk about lunatics running the asylum!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 21 Apr 14 - 04:52 AM

The hospital where my office is based refused to have a healthcare assistant spend time taking a man out for a cigarette. He took legal action and although he lost, (gave up on the morning of the court hearing starting ) his lack of assets meant The NHS was stuck with a £12k legal bill.

One aspect of this addiction that galls me is running the gauntlet each morning of smokers attached to drips or in wheel chairs with legs missing. Even in winter. Prolonging their stay in many cases, making less capacity for new patients. We really do need to recall the Bevan aims of The NHS. It can only work if people take responsibility for their health.

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Johnny J
Date: 21 Apr 14 - 04:44 AM

Worth hearing this one again.....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kO1nCuVQIeg&feature=player_detailpage

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 21 Apr 14 - 04:31 AM

A few years ago I used to do WRVS voluntary work twice a week in the Norfolk & Norwich University Hospital. I pushed a sweets/newspapers trolley around the wards on one shift, and served in the WRVS shop on a Saturday evening on the other shift. The hospital (as all in UK now) has a total no-smoking policy everywhere, even outside the doors. What used to amaze me on arrival in the car park was the number of ciggy addict patients in their pyjamas, bandaged, in plaster, tottering about, some even wheeling drip-stands along behind them, smoking frantically to make up for the hours of abstinence on the wards. Even in the rain, the wind, sleet - there they were. The number of patients, visitors, staff that used to ask us in the shop if we sold cigarettes was astonishing. (Of course we didn't!) The look in their eyes said it all - "No 'fix', no relief from the craving - what shall I do now?"
I later did work with prisoners, some of whom were heroin addicts. The same look in their eyes was there. (I was once or twice even asked if I could smuggle some 'brown' in for them!) The government should do all in its power to stop the sale of tobacco products completely. The lost revenue would surely be regained by the decrease in NHS costs over time.

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Apr 14 - 03:04 AM

Since we moved to Ireland we have taken the opportunity t visit some of the places we only managed to drive through over the last 40 years, West Cork, West Kerry, Donegal, Connemara, rural Ulster.... - a wonderful experience and highly recommended for those who haven't.
One of the great joys since the smoking ban has been to stay in hotels and guest houses where the furniture, curtains, carpets and bedding don't reek of weeks and weeks of past smoking.
In the past, booking a 'non-smoking' room has often meant the proprietors hanging a 'no-smoking' sign on the door of any old room - now, whole sections of these places are designated as permanent no-smoking areas and some places are entirely 'smoke-free' buildings: utter bliss - fresh air at last.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 20 Apr 14 - 07:08 PM

"Cool as a mountain stream" was Consulate mentholated cigarettes not Peter Stuyvesant. You can still buy them.
I gave up halfway through my first pregnancy 38 years ago: had my last one at a family wedding. The link between lung cancer and smoking had been published in a paper by Sir Richard Doll in 1954, and other risks, such as the pregnant woman and her unborn child, emerged thereafter.
I can only echo what many have said above about hating coming home from any social gathering reeking of smoke and having to wash everything including hair. It may have driven some smokers away from attending such places, but has attracted back some who stayed away as they couldn't tolerate the smoke. Most of our friends and family are non-smokers, but on the rare occasion that we have had a smoker stay with us, we have just mentioned politely that our house is a no smoking area and guests have equally politely accepted and adhered to that. My father-in-law used to make regular excuses to go and "inspect the garden" although on one particularly cold day he was caught blowing smoke up our chimney, hoping that no-one would notice!

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Janie
Date: 20 Apr 14 - 05:29 PM

Thanks, pete, but it is neither thoughtful or gracious on my part. It is simply the fact of the matter.

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 20 Apr 14 - 04:39 PM

that is thoughtful and gracious of you, Janie.

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Janie
Date: 20 Apr 14 - 02:10 PM

This smoker doesn't smoke inside my own home, much less allow anyone else to. We smokers do not have the right to subject anyone else to our deadly and obnoxious addiction.

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 20 Apr 14 - 11:55 AM

All of my childhood I was subjected to my mother's heavy smoking. My place at the table was next to her and she had a cigarette going during the meal. We had power struggles when I refused to wash smelly ashtrays with the dishes. I moved out as soon as I could and never went back, because I hated the smoke.

Her addiction was strong. She was a really smart woman, but she ignored our requests that she not smoke in our bedrooms, in our presence. She alienated most of us with that behavior.

I have kept my fingers crossed my whole adult life that her smoking isn't lurking in the background to affect my health. No one is allowed to smoke in my house, they are welcome to go outside and I have a seating area they can use. I work on a no smoking campus, so when I smell smoke I've been known to walk over to the corner where the offender is sneaking a smoke and insisting they put it out. Yes. I'm still angry about it all.

I avoided bars, music venues, even restaurants for years because I hated being held captive by the smokers. One smoker can stink up a whole room for everyone else. Now most of those places are smoke-free, but I'm out of the habit of trying to go out to clubs.

SRS

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Stringsinger
Date: 20 Apr 14 - 08:33 AM

Just wanted to add that as a working musician, my first occupational hazard which has kept me out of the clubs and directly interfered with my livelihood is the poison of tobacco smoke.
Reading the autobiography of many famous songwriters I'm impressed that their life span
seems to be cut short of the their fiftieth birthdays. Irving Berlin, the only exception, seemed to defy the odds.

Why do you think that was? From what I've read, just two words. Tobacco and alcohol.

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Apr 14 - 07:00 AM

Can't argue with that! :-)

Subject: RE: Smokers in clubs
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 20 Apr 14 - 05:35 AM

You can contract gastric issues from the rumbling hunger it produces though :-)