A boring place

Subject: A boring place
From: GUEST,Leadbelly
Date: 13 Apr 14 - 05:15 PM

I may be wrong. And if so; sorry friends.

But I got the feeling that compared to -let's say - 10 years ago Mudcat became somewhat boring in respect to interesting threads.

Don't know why, but actually I do miss many persons being active here some time ago.

Anyhow, Mudcat is always good to take a sight from time to time.

Manfred from Germany

Moved to BS, Manfred, as it's a more general discussion topic

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Apr 14 - 05:34 PM

yes I miss a lot of people. a lot of the early gang were a bit standoffish and seemed to reckon themselves a cut above us johnny come latelies.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 13 Apr 14 - 05:44 PM

A lot of wonderful people have moved on to something better. Facebook I mean. And some to Heaven.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Apr 14 - 09:33 PM

I fail to understand the mindset that complains about the lack of "interesting threads". Start one.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Megan L
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 02:51 AM

People have tried that Ebbie but unfortunately there is a coterie of unpleasant people who take great delight in hijacking threads with vicious argument and banal repletion.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 06:27 AM

What sort of thread would be interesting?

The legendary Song Challenges certainly were to me, both amusing and enlightening. I would like to participate in a tune writing Challenge for given lyrics. The starter must be someone of sufficient authority to attract many competent participants. Other ideas along that line are welcome.

Controversial discussions can be enjoyable as well, depending on the number of constructive contributors. Banal and bickering messages must simply be ignored. Threads started by serious posters about genuine problems will rarely be hijacked successfully. In fact very few threads altogether are hijacked successfully.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Mr Red
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 07:38 AM

Mudcat has been likened to a pub where people come in and start talking and some people get aerated about some agenda in their heads we know of not. Some change the subject and inevitably the person who started the discussion might re-iterate "But we were talking about .....". and then there are the PC police. And then there are the trolls. And the jokers.
And then there are those we haven't seen for a while saying "not wot it used to B".

Welcome old friend! Come in, join in. What do you want to discuss?

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 07:46 AM

This old chestnut is a denizen of every forum, it seems. First, the thing about "hijacking" threads is that the great glory of a natter on the internet is that threads wander everywhere in a most democratic manner. I love it when I start a thread and it gets "hijacked". The second element is the lament for the lost golden age (which never existed), since when it is claimed (with little evidence) that good people have been "driven away". Thirdly, of course, is the claim, again to be seen on many a board, that it's just a handful of bastards who are wrecking the whole thing, a claim never accompanied, of course, by the naming of names. Well I've been on a number of forums where I've been embroiled in controversy (you'd never guess, of course), but there is a uniqueness about this one: the bigots, the homophobes, the liars, the revisionists, the racists, the fundamentalists and the downright unbalanced and deluded are either indulged or treated with muteness from the moderators. The handful of people who loudly resist them, on the other hand, are generally the people here who are vilified. Before one contemplates which of these two groups is the more distasteful, one should ask oneself which of the groups is actually responsible for dragging the place down.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Musket
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 07:55 AM

Something to think on Steve.

The most powerful person in a meeting is the one tasked with taking the minutes.

There was no golden age of anything. If the golden age involved outrageous comments promoting incitement to hate, then the age was tarnished, and gold is rather inert as metals go... Challenging comments that have no place in decent society isn't boorish, it's a service. And they get it for free! How cool's that?

Look on the bright side. I much prefer Jack when he calls me a fucking cunt to when he quoted Max's expectations aka rules.. Some things have improved immensely.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 08:40 AM

Suggestion:
Why not give it a try and open some interesting threads versus a complaint one (which has mostly been "done to death") , and see how it goes, Leadbelly.


"It's probably better to have him inside the tent pissing out, than outside the tent pissing in." LBJ

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: GUEST,Ed T
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 08:41 AM

Oops, last post was Ed T, from a remote computer:)

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: MartinRyan
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 08:42 AM

'Cat chasing its tale again?

Regards

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Amos
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 09:04 AM

Saying something didn't occur does not mean it didn't actually occur. I don't know about "golden" but the humor and creativity of the Mudcat at the heyday of Song Challenges and fiction writing was considerably richer than it is now. And yes, good folk have been "driven" away, pretty much, by some of the nabobs of negativity who have made conversation painful instead of delightful. Mediocrity and antagonism arte one of the side effects of democratic life, I think.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 09:16 AM

We have always had that kind of person, butI do not remember a pack of them before.

I am not aware of any racists or homophobes here, but the pack sees them.
They can just tell and, as Musket and Steve just told us, they think that makes it OK to go after them.

Or, if a gentle person tries to explain why he believes in creation.

Or if the most reasonable longstanding Mudcat member I can think of tries to discuss religious persecution, a week later he has to ask that his thread be closed.

There is a changed environment here now.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: jacqui.c
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 10:01 AM

I agree with Amos and Keith. What I find boring is the constant bickering that seems to take over so many threads, involving the same old crew every time. There WAS a time here that discussions did not always end up with name calling and nastiness and the few that actually did behave in that way were outweighed by those who enjoyed discussion and maybe learned from reading other points of view.

Over ten years ago Kendall and I connected on one such thread. I'm not sure, today, that either of us would have hung around long enough in such a thread, or, for that matter, have contributed to it. BS seems to have become a place where small minded people stalk each other and spew unpleasantness over what could be interesting discussions. This group seem to have no interest in learning anything and there seems to be no chance of their entrenched positions changing, so why bother keeping on? There must be some very unhappy souls out there, finding pleasure in the hostility that rears its head so often. I feel sorry for you guys, but I wish that you would take your crap somewhere else.

Jacqui Morse - member since around 2002.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Megan L
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 10:08 AM

Jings Jacqui it just shows my memory must be going :) I could have sworn you were here when I joined in 2000.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Musket
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 10:14 AM

My memory seems to be going too.

I could have sworn Keith just said he wasn't aware of any racists or homophobes on Mudcat.

"The pack" being people who are dismayed at unchallenged bigotry masquerading as views.

zzzzzzzzzz

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Big Mick
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 10:34 AM

That is the point I was making with the BBOP thread. I have no problem with intense debate of issues, that is the stuff that inspires folklore. I don't care one whit that certain envious people make the gratuitous assertion that there never was a golden age. Call it what you want, but there was a time when this place drew fascinating people, had creative threads that were insightful, educational, uproariously funny, and friendly. People like Jean Ritchie, Frank Hamilton, Arlo Gutherie, Rick Fielding, Art Thieme, Paul Mills, Grit Laskin, Ed Trickett, Gordon Bok, Sandy and Caroline Paton, Dan Milner came here and talked about the place as "the village I always wanted to live in" . It created a cross Atlantic, indeed a world wide, community of friends, even inspiring gatherings in several countries of guests from many places like Iceland, Great Britain, Ireland and Australia. On a personal note, I owe many of the most fascinating friendships and opportunities with artists great and small entirely to this place, and the friendships created in "the good old days". Suggestions that this group was somehow "exclusive" or "elite" are a load of crap. The only requirement for entry was to walk in and start posting. If anyone felt excluded, I am sorry for that, but would suggest it was more in your mind than anyone here. What made Mudcat the site it became was that it was welcoming, and a treasure grove of collective musical knowledge. It wasn't just music either. Recipes, jokes, hell you name the subject we probably covered it.

Today, as one poster noted, it suffers from entropy. The storefronts have for sale or let signs in the windows, and folks have moved to the suburbs, driven out by a small group of arrogant and nasty posters. This surly crew has not destroyed the place, they aren't that good, but they have created an atmosphere that drives thoughtful, funny, creative people to other places. Now, having said that in support of others that remember better times, let's just set back and watch them howl. We will all probably be accused of stalking because we expressed these opinions

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: GUEST,Ed T
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 10:41 AM

My past favorite post was a sure-fire cure for Athletes Foot - soak it in human urine. Now, who would have "thunk" of that? A challenge, can anyone guess who suggested it?:)

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 10:52 AM

The aspects I tire of are the dead horse-beating kind. On the one hand I agree with those who feel that egregious nastiness should not go unchallenged. On the other, having once challenged it, most of us are not going to change our minds nor are we changing anyone else's.   If the first round of challenges doesn't convince us of an error in our thinking - and that does happen- it has happened to me - the second, fifth, or eighteenth round won't either. We are all adults here and we all cherish our beliefs rightly or wrongly.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Musket
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 10:54 AM

I can't work out whether those who use Mudcat as an outlet for their bigotry or those who stand up to them are responsible for property prices in the city centre here?

Were there no people dismissing whole sections of society in their funny creative thoughtful way, or were there no people stopping them?

Some of the people you mention who have drifted are on record for being rather outspoken against intolerance and hate inspired philosophy.

Yes, I am sure Mudcat can be fun. It is! Plenty of threads both sides of the line are fun. Many are thoughtful. Sure, the odd bar fight spills over into the street where people are congregating, but wallowing in nostalgia isn't the way to address it. Moderation is, but whatever the rights and wrongs, there have been far too many examples of odious crap remaining whilst people who challenge it get their challenges removed.

I mean, one fool has just stated that he knows of no homophobia or racism on these threads yet consistently supports the bigots spewing it and feeds them erroneous information to spur them on! Notwithstanding his own links to a UK based far right group that opposes gay marriage and multiculturalism.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 11:10 AM

Guten Tag, Leadbelly.

Vielleicht hiflen Sie mir with einem Lied. Hier in America gibt es ein berumptes Kirchenlied,"Ellacombe". Es stimmt aus dem Buch von X.L. Hartig welches "Melodien zum Mainzer Gesangbuche" heisst (gedruckt 1833.)

Bitte, finden Sie mir die deutsche Worter bei "Ellacombe."

In einer Moment gebe ich Ihr ein Link.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 11:11 AM

'Cat chasing its tale again?

I really do hope that pun was intended :-)

The other thing I will add is that in the 'good old days' there were at least 2 people that I know of, possibly more, who were banned from the forum. Now, it may be false logic and I am more than happy to be enlightened, but that seems to indicate one of the following things

1. There were nastier people in the past or
2. The place is not really as bad as some people are making out.

I believe it is the later as I cannot accept that people have changed that much.

The only other option I can think of is that Mudcat moderation is now much more tolerant but, as at least one of the moderators is making the same complaint I cannot really figure out what is going on there :-(

Sorry, just my 2p worth.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 11:13 AM

Man hort 'Ellacombe' hier:

http://www.hymntime.com/tch/htm/a/r/i/arisetki.htm

Danke sehr.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 11:19 AM

Bitte, wenn sie die Worter finden, fangen Sie ein neues Thread an mit "Lyric Add' usw.

(Meanwhile, Spellcheck is losing its mind.)

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 11:25 AM

Hast Sie lost her mind? lol

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 11:51 AM

Out of interest, take a peek at the tail end of the 'HIV' thread to see how it has developed. Skip the 950 earlier posts. Just look at the last bit. Maybe if we could only argue by linking musical versions of our ideas the world may not become a better place but it would be more entertaining :-)

DtG

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 01:14 PM

Musket, there are no real homophobes or racists here.
No bigots either.
You are just attacking harmless windmills and pretending you are facing evil giants.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Big Mick
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 02:18 PM

I would also point that some of the worst offenders are people whose issue I agree with. But they are so obsessed with the person taking the other side that they just rant on, in some cases, for years. As was said above, I get it already. No need to post these incredibly long rants. At some point just agree to disagree and move on.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 02:21 PM

Musket, old bean, you just called Keith a fool.

of course there are racists and homophobes on mudcat and everywhere else. keith takes them too seriously. nothing he writes on mudcat is likely to convert them into nice people. plus -some racists and homophobes and serial murderers are nice people. jus they have this tendency to indulge in homphobic racist and homicidal behaviour.

i remember one time a guy called Divis, from northern Ireland claimed some sort of connection with people who had shot and murdered English soldiers in NI. and of course some yanks , who would have frothed at the mouth if you used the word nigger, thought shooting brits ...well bad form, but entirely understandable. racism is a funny thing.

Anyway Keith was going crazy at this guy for months - and finally he pissed off. and I kind of missed him. I remember Oliver who went under the name Ard Mcha reckoned Divis was a fantasist - and because of my rather scatty sense of humour that I was a bit anti irish.

so what I say is this - don't make a fuss if someone says something that repels you. you joined the internet to meet other people. have they all got to be mr.normal with 2,3 kids and a job and a wife and car. treasure the diversity of the people you meet on mudcat.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: pdq
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 03:41 PM

"I would also point that some of the worst offenders are people whose issue I agree with. ~ an assistant to the Moderator


That is precisely why these turds are allowed to post here with impunity.

They say what the staff want said but allow them not to get the shit splattered on themselves.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 07:27 PM

they have created an atmosphere that drives thoughtful, funny, creative people to other places. Now, having said that in support of others that remember better times, let's just set back and watch them howl.

Hmm. Well you won't hear me howl, but you will hear me challenge you to prove that your assertion is true. I don't think you can, because it just isn't. People leave forums for all manner of reasons. Boredom would be a numero uno candidate, or drifting interests, or just their life moving on. You are inventing a stick to beat your would-be howlers that is a complete illusion, and a pretty disingenuous one at that. And, while I'm addressing you, I note how you diminished yourself by having a snide last word then immediately shutting down your own rather embarrassing thread. Bet you and your golden-age mates didn't do that sort of thing in the good ol' days! Cop yerself on, Big Bro!

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 08:17 PM

By the way, this...

Or, if a gentle person tries to explain why he believes in creation

...must be the most naive remark I've ever read here. If the poster actually believes what he typed, of course.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Big Mick
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 09:22 PM

Actually, Steve, I shut it down because the only thing happening was the BBOP's were getting redundant in their worn out justifications for being obnoxious, arrogant asses. As to your pathetic challenge, it isn't necessary to prove what is apparent. You seek to challenge me, but I am not the issue. You have heard from any number of people who remember when this was a place people liked to visit. I have already given you a list of folks that quit coming because of people with your attitude, quite frankly. I could easily list many more.

Please ... Keep justifying yourself. You make the case so well.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Bert
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 09:36 PM

Sometimes I wonder how we got rid of poor old Shambles, who had a legitimate axe to grind, but kept several other obnoxious folk around.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: frogprince
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 10:06 PM

"I have already given you a list of folks that quit coming because of people with your attitude, quite frankly. I could easily list many more." Big Mick

"you will hear me challenge you to prove that your assertion is true. I don't think you can, because it just isn't."

I personally know people who have stated that reason for bailing out here. I can assure you that that is true for others here too. But we are all wrong, because it is impossible for Steve Shaw to be wrong about anything.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 02:24 AM

I miss Diane Easby, aka Borchester Echo, I miss Jean Richie.I always enjoy stringsingers posts.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 03:26 AM

I had every intention of staying away from this thread, and that remains my intention, but I am posting this, which is a statement I have just posted on the "Different way to speak about persecution" thread.
I was prompted to do s there because the OP has expressed qualms about what hass happened to his thread, and is suggesting that he should never have opened it, which, I believe is a shame.
Jim Carroll

"I shouldn't have started the thread, that is clear enough"
I really can't see why Mac - if you are right, any discussion on persecution is a no-go area because it will stir up a hornet's nest.
I believe that this Forum has been targeted by a tiny number of individuals who are prepared to spend time and effort advocating for their own particular brand of persecution.
In the past, the target for their hate campaigns have been Muslims and gays, now it has spilled over to include the Irish.
Some of the statements made, recently and in the past, would be illegal under Britain's incitement race and sectarian hate laws and would be liable to prosecution, had they not been made within the safety of the social network.
This is essentially a music site which should be capable of attracting contributors from all cultures - if I were a Muslim, I doubt if I would come anywhere near Mudcat following some of the comments on that culture that are continually being made.
My roots are Irish; I have recently been provoked into a fury by comments made against Irish and Irish American people.
These are a form of persecution in themselves and they have now been directed against members of this forum.   
The statement in your opening posting was an extremely moving and apposite one, but like many others, it has become bogged down in squabbles involving individuals rather than issues.
If postings like yours cannot be made, then all such views become taboo, and this handful of extremists will have won - I'm not prepared to see that happen without voicing my misgivings about what I believe to be happening.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 03:33 AM

I can't imagine what "legitimate axe" Shambles had to grind, Bert - I just put a limit on his posting multiple copies of the same post, and never deleted anything of his unless it was an exact copy of something he had previously posted. Whatever the case, he left "forever" on his own accord, and then came back as a guest and posted regularly without interference until he just drifted away.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 03:35 AM

Most people like the posts of people they AGREE with.
I dont agree with everything Stringsinger says, but always compliment him when he says something reasonable, even when it runs contrary to my own general point of view.
On the ranters, cursers, stalkers,ideologists,.....I laugh at their insults, they illustrate the paucity of their ability to reason. I'm sure GfS and Keith feel the same.

I'm happy for their nonsense to be left in place, but I do fear for the forum if every thread is to be filled with abusive childishness, or dated Goon Show humour.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 04:15 AM

I think it's a matter of respect. If there isn't respect in an interchange of ideas, fruitful discussion is impossible. I know that on a number of subjects, I will be vehemently attacked if I express what I think. And often I'm attacked for what people think I think, before I'm even allowed to express myself. I can't just throw out an idea for discussion, because so many people here are in "attack mode." They cannot seem to be able to disagree in a nonaggressive manner - and that makes it well-nigh impossible for those of us with gentler natures. They are able to see discussion only as combat, never as a peaceful exchange.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Musket
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 04:25 AM

Respect is a very very subjective word Joe. You occasionally snap, I snap much sooner. You and I agree on some things and not others. Some are open to debate, some are deep rooted and not liable to review on the basis of a bloke on the internet.

However, respect for a post by someone on the basis of expectation of respecting a member's right to express a view is somewhat complicated. If that view is demeaning to people, regardless of whether they are on Mudcat or not, will be challenged. By me, by you, by anyone who doesn't share their view.

That Mudcat has enough members to have a wide spectrum of views is wonderful. Those who see others as inferior or worse still, don't see their bigotry as insulting are part of that spectrum. And so are those who would challenge it.

The folk movement is founded on propagating awareness of knowing what is wrong, challenging it and dreaming of a utopia where society has moved on from fear, distrust, bigotry and hate.

Rather ironic that so many here say "let them have their say." I say fuck 'em but that's just me. I'm sure the same people will wish me to have my say too.......

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 04:33 AM

You see bigotry where there is none.
Who asked you to ride in here and denounce people who have been here for years?
We liked things as they were thank you.
Go and save someone else please.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 04:39 AM

"Challenging" and "attacking" are two different words (and two different tactics), Musket. I prefer the former.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 04:48 AM

Derek Brimstone used to have this schtick before doing his banjo spot....this was written by cousin the great Ezra |Maddox junior . he was a hillbilly....the least prejudiced man I ever knew....Jews, Catholics, Black people, students, politicians, limeys....he hated them all equally.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 04:58 AM

"Who asked you to ride in here and denounce people who have been here for years?"
I hadn't realised that there was a probationary period for expressing views on Mudcat - live and learn
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 05:13 AM

we will inform you when your probationary period has been served satisfactorily young Jim.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 05:30 AM

"we will inform you when your probationary period has been served satisfactorily young Jim."
Please do Al
As somebody who has told I am not eligible to comment on British politics because I have chosen to live in Ireland, I am beginning to wonder how longer and how far this behaviour is going to be tolerated.
I have made sure my passport is up-to-date, now I'm thinking I should get a copy of my birth certificate
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 05:53 AM

Jim: You mean well, but you are such a relativist that you regard any negative comment about any cultural tradition as ipso facto racist. As Ira Gershwin observed, it ain't necessarily so. There are in existence proselytising cultures who freely acknowledge that their object is to convert the rest of the world to their way of thinking. It is not racist to point out that this is the case, and to draw attention to the possible undesirability of affording them too ready a platform for their activities. We have disagreed on this matter before and will doubtless do so again. But I am sure you will appreciate where I am coming from, and which of the catalogue of victims of aggression you have instanced in your recent posts I have in mind. Note, in this connection, the enquiry just formed, reported in this morning's press, to look into certain influences alleged to be infiltrating certain schools in certain areas. You will find it prominently reported on p6 of this morning's Times, for instance.

~M~

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 06:23 AM

This really is a matter of opinion Mike
We are all prone to prejudices, but when it comes as long as often and as all-encompassing as it has over the last few years it becomes more than an occasional lack of concentration; rather a conscious campaign.
As I have said, some of the statements would breach the laws of incitement to racial hatred.
The fact that they now effect contributors of this form have really done it for me.
I was aware of contents the reported Times article last night when it appeared on the news.
It still does not excuse accusations of "cultural implants" made against over one million British citizens, as has been made by a member of this forum - that is the stuff the B.N.P. peddles.
And none of this has anything to do with being told you can't comment on British politics unless you are a resident, or you have no right to express an opinion if you haven't passes some sort of probationary period.
I genuinely am sorry to find myself at odds with you again.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Jeri
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 06:33 AM

I wonder if some of you can't post without going after another individual.

This is a US based site, and some things are different. What you call "incitement to hatred" is often what we call "stating an unpopular opinion". Our definition of "race" is basted on genetics and not country of origin. The "English", for example, are not considered a race because some are white, some are Black, Asian... etc.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 06:36 AM

Not all that much at odds, Jim, on this occasion. I don't disagree with much of what you say. My point was simply that suspicion of some sections of the community's motivations may not always be racist; but it tends, in my observation, to be your reaction that it is likely to be so: eg the 'their', last word on line 8 of your post above of 0326 am, has occasionally included me when I have simply been referring to no more than such as that Times/last·night's·tv·news report.

~M~

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 06:49 AM

"I wonder if some of you can't post without going after another individual."
I have made a point of not doing that her Jeri - I fully understand the damage it can do, largely because of my own stupidity in doing exactly what you describe.
That is why I am trying to confine my remarks to specific issues and not who raised them
Mike
None of my comments have been deliberately aimed at you - quite honestly, my estimation of your own position in all this leaves me somewhat nonplussed
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Musket
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 07:19 AM

I'm going to go at bigots and try to ridicule them. I am going to go at homophobes and try to give them nowhere to go in order to save face.

Carry on defending them Keith and I will carry on tarring you with their brush.

You have no right whatsoever over and above a first time poster for anything whatsoever.

Live with that fucker whilst you are at it. You horrible little man.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: MartinRyan
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 07:31 AM

'Cat chasing its tale again?

I really do hope that pun was intended :-)

DtG
-----------------------------------

It was...

Regards

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 07:52 AM

You have restored my faith in 'catters. Thanks Martin :-)

DtG

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 07:54 AM

Musket, I would never defend a bigot or any bigotry.
Jim, no-one has ever told you to refrain from discussing any country's politics, and for the record all your usual accusations are groundless.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Ed T
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 08:02 AM

It's more like a Manx cat chasing its tale

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 08:52 AM

Jim: I didn't take your comments as aimed at me this time, but they have sometimes been so in the past. In particular, I posted two comments on my view of the possibly baleful influence of Islamism on the 'Unarmed Soldier' thread in June 2013, which IIRC you called 'racist' at the time; although, as I pointed out then and do so again now, Islam is not 'a race' in any meaningful sense, but rather a faith-based philosophy which enjoins certain responsibilities, which many find incompatible with the traditional values of our own society, on its adherents, who are of a variety of entirely discrete races. My position has not shifted since then; so I fail to understand your 'nonplus' as to my position.

~M~

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 09:28 AM

Sorry Mike - thought I had apologised before and explained, Islam is not a race - "All male Pakistanis" is - if you got hit by my buckshot - again, I apologise - not intended for you in that respect.
When push comes to shove, there isn't a great deal of difference between Islamophobia (or any attack on any religion) and racism when it comes to the effect it has on the recipient - but surely not the place to discuss it here.
Personally I find the mixture of religion and political influence (again, whatever religion) fairly threatening - but it is the influence I find disturbing, not any particular religion.
I am struck by the similarity of the present attempts of Muslim attempts to infiltrate Birmingham schools, and similar attempts by The B.N.P., the National Front, and other extremist groups to influence children via leafleting outside schools and by having members of these organisations holding school positions.
I am also struck by the level of reaction to both.
What I would have thought we all wish to avoid is the actions of extremist groups reflecting on entire communities.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Big Mick
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 09:32 AM

Your honor, the prosecution rests its case.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 09:43 AM

To clarify my comment as to the 'relativism' of your position, Jim: at 0326am you wrote of "individuals who are prepared to spend time and effort advocating for their own particular brand of persecution. In the past, the target for their hate campaigns have been Muslims and gays": as if there were some sort of equivalence between these two groups. My point is that objection to any sort of personally chosen sexual practice which differs from that of the objector is IMO [as well as in yours] irrational and regrettable. "Muslims" otoh, as I remark above, present, and represent, an entirely different kind of case. I do not think their acknowledged aims are such as can be pursued without entirely unacceptable degrees of friction and mutual hostility within the traditional parameters of our community, and it is injudicious to pretend otherwise and to try and accommodate co-existence of the two systems within one society. This seems to me an entirely rational statement of fact, not of prejudice, at least worthy of consideration and rational response, and not simply to be denounced as "racism", or as any sort of "persecution".

~M~

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 09:45 AM

Facts are stubborn things, but statistics are more pliable.

Mark Twain

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: MartinRyan
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 10:00 AM

EdT
It's more like a Manx cat chasing its tale

Yep - a double-headed pun.

Regards

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 11:00 AM

Mike
Any religion, in the hands of fundamentalists, is a dangerous thing - I seem to remember stoning adulterers features sever times in the Christian Bible - can't recall that type of thing happening much in Birmingham - it's all down to how the scriptures (any scriptures) are interpreted and acted on.
As far as the treatment of women are concerned, domestic violence, treating women as "meat"... that seems a feature of all communities and applies to nearly all religious groups and communities in general.
One of the distinguishing features of the Muslim communities in Britain is that they are law abiding, unobtrusive, hard-working and, as was announced last year, the first to declare themslves British and the most likely to integrate into the host community.
It seems unfair to equate the vast majority of them with the behaviour of a handful of extremists.
It used to amuse me when I attended the Herga Club in Harrow all those years ago, taht I had to queue up at the bar alongside a load of young Muslim building workers.
I doubt if anybody could claim that the British behaved as well as the British Muslims do when they are away from home.
Sorry Mike - I don't read the Daily Mail, so maybe I'm a little out-of touch.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 11:53 AM

No, I don't either! I've always been a Times person. I do take your points. But there is no burking the fact that the faith does lay proselytising injunctions on the faithful. Ask any of the faithful who take these injunctions seriously about this amenable and integrated majority, and they will denounce them as bad Muslims. You know this is true. And I know that such are a minority, but one who can be effective. {It wasn't any sort of majority who knocked the WTC Towers down: it was 5 or 6 men; but they fell down just the same!}. And this fills one with apprehension, as if one were living over a volcano. I don't see how we can live at ease with it. I honestly don't want to be alarmist; and fully accept the fact that they are here, and it is the duty of all to try and make their presence work. No good crying over spilt milk, and all that. Here they are and they're not going away. I'm OK. I shall be dead v soon and I have no children to worry about. But even the Irish Troubles had a sort of recognisable rationale not present in the Rigby incident. Let's hope that such never occurs again. But how high can be these hopes? You will express faith in the ability of the rational majority to be able to control the rebellious elements in their midst. Let's hope you are right. But if all were as calm and comparatively worry-free as you hope, they wouldn't be holding this enquiry in Birmingham, would they?

~M~

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Big Mick
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 11:54 AM

Lads ....... Do you realize you are completely off topic?

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 12:01 PM

Jim gets cross when you tell him that.
He calls in censorship.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 12:15 PM

"It seems unfair to equate the vast majority of them with the behaviour of a handful of extremists"...
.,.,
Nobody's equating. MERELY FEARFUL OF THE DISPROPORTIONATE POTENTIAL OF THE 'HANDFUL'. [sorry: shift lock, not shout]. If only it were just a matter of 'fairness'!. But 'It's so-o-o unfair,' is a notoriously ineffectual plea. I want to be just & fair to that vast majority. I expect they are as apprehensive, from a somewhat different pov, as I am. So what are they going to do about it? What can they do about it? And do they really want to? Or do not fear to? Is there any record of their community ever actually co-operating with the authorities in identifying this dangerous element within them. I think not. But don't tell me none of them knows who they are. Maybe they are scared. Maybe some of them are more sympathetic to the dissidents than they would like you to think ~~ even if they do drink at that bar in Harrow High St... Glad that afforded you some 'amusement'...

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 12:16 PM

Sorry, Big Mick...

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 12:34 PM

"faith does lay proselytising injunctions on the faithful"
Don't all faiths in or form or another?
I was to be married once, before I left home.
The father of the girl I was planning to marry insisted that I convert to Catholicism, and when that was a non starter, I had to sign to say we would have any children of the union brought up as Catholics - over the wall before you could say "Don't eat meat on Friday"
There are around 300,000 Hasidic Jews in Britain - ten percent of them are orthodox, around 20,000 live in North London - a threat to the British way of life - don't think so - do you?
"Ask any of the faithful who take these injunctions seriously"
I have - the ones I discussed religion with were far more tolerant of other and non-believers than most 'Christians' who "take their injunctions seriously" than I've met, and a damn sight easier to talk to.
"And this fills one with apprehension, as if one were living over a volcano."
It may leave you feeling that Mike - but I suggest that this is more to do with your prejudices than it has reality.
As I get a little tired pointing out, Muslim communities in Britain are noted for their unobtrusiveness, law-abiding nature and their efforts to meld into the community (if they were allowed to).
Thankfully, we have not yet entered into Tom Cruise's 'Minority report' of detaining potential criminals before they commit their crimes.
"Do you realize you are completely off topic?"
Sorry Mick - of course we are - I said it wasn't goint to happen and it has - but it's quite civilised for a change, and I hope it's not boring, but maybe it is.
Let's give it a rest and pick up some other time Mike
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 12:45 PM

Agreed -- except must just rejoin, re your "all faiths in one form or another", & the Hasidim, that Judaism is resolutely & specifically non-proselytising. It is made hard to convert in even if you want to. It's a club. Outsiders not welcomed.

But, yes. Let's have done with this on this thread for now, before poor old Mick has apoplexy!.

See you on another thread some time. Mebbe!

~M~

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 12:53 PM

" before poor old Mick has apoplexy!."
I think he's a damn sight more tolerant than some people - myself included
Sorry again Mick
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 12:58 PM

The muslim religion is as diverse as the christian religion,within the christian religion there are many sects, fairly recently catholics and protestants were murdering each other in ulster, yet they are all supposed to be christian.
Please can everyone remember that within the muslim religion there are as many variations as there are in the christian religion, hopefully this is not boring anyone.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 01:51 PM

'"And this fills one with apprehension, as if one were living over a volcano."
It may leave you feeling that Mike - but I suggest that this is more to do with your prejudices than it has reality'....
.,,.
...& can't resist quoting here the old observation, "Just because you are paranoid it doesn't mean they are not out to get you."

Och a-weel. Time will tell. But I shan't be there to say "Tolger-so"...

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 01:56 PM

Dick: Xtns murder Xtns, sure; & Sunnis murder Shias. What's that to do with it? All these 'many sects' are bound by the Koran, within which they are enjoined...

Oh, wotsa use!

Sorry again...

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 02:40 PM

I do not claim to be an expert on the muslim religion, but I would be surprised, if all muslim sects took exectly the same view point on womens rights.
I believe that some people are anti muslim, because they see them as a threat, some of these same people also dislike all foreigners.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 02:54 PM

the topic we were off.........is it boring, and are we missing the input of people who pissed off because they didn't like the cut of our jib?

nah...! bollocks to 'em!

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 03:42 PM

got to admit....its a drag Bob and Joannie stopped dropping in. you shouldn't have called him a wanker, Jim.

And when Keith made that crack, it's alright ma!(its only a bleeding idiot). I knew he wasn't happy.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 04:04 PM

Well I'm not cheering at the suspicion that "Islamists" are trying to infiltrate (?) schools, but it's quite amusing to recall that Christianity has been doing that exact same thing in the supposedly secular UK so effectively that an act of daily worship in schools is the law of the land.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 05:07 PM

I'm not 'anti-muslim', Dick. Just scared to Shitsville of them... But the instamatic racism-spotter subcutaneously fitted to so many a Mudcatter will have been triggered, I am well aware...

~M~

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Ed T
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 05:18 PM

Fear 


Rest easy, M the GM, no one should call you a racist, as it is a religion of many world races (including people like you) not a race of people. Fear is a legitimate concern/condition regarding many issues, as the article in the link above explains.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: GUEST,Leadbelly
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 05:35 PM

Hmmm, reading about the second part of this discussion is excactly what I expected.

Will not make a decision about whether it is boring or exciting, but in any case it's not alongside the original thread-title.

leeneia: I'm trying to answer your question next time.

To Al: nice to meet you here again. I still like your wonderful music!

To all others concentrating upon the original thread: many thanks. Naturally, I'm aware of the fact that it is somewhat easy to critizise something but I deeply feel that today Mudcat is no longer so attractive as it was a couple of years ago.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 07:19 PM

Actually, Steve, I shut it down because the only thing happening was the BBOP's were getting redundant in their worn out justifications for being obnoxious, arrogant asses. As to your pathetic challenge, it isn't necessary to prove what is apparent. You seek to challenge me, but I am not the issue.

I note the name-calling in your post. I note the snide last word you indulged yourself in before you shut the thread. How diminishing for you. You're no paragon, are you? I note also your lack of irony in so doing. As for the rest, it's gibberish. I hope you're feeling better.

As for people leaving because they get pissed off, a few points.

1. You do not have to open a thread. If you open a thread that you know will offend you, you're barking mad.

2. If you accidentally open a thread that then seems to offend you, it takes about two seconds to recognise it as such and click to somewhere else. The damage to your sensibilities will be minimal.

3. You do not have the right to not be offended, but you do have the right, and the means, to avoid offensive material.

4. This is not a purely political/controversial forum, not by a long chalk. There are something like seventy threads in front of me on today's page. Most of them are not of interest to me. Some, both above and below the line, definitely are, some might be, so I'll dip in. On the whole, the experience here is pleasant. There are threads on topics which interest me which I no longer visit (for example, one on Israel, another on HIV transmission). Each of those threads is plagued by a complete idiot (more than one in the case of the Israel thread, and Jim will know I'm not referring to him), both of them arch-bigots, and I decided ages ago that the game wasn't worth the candle. But, you see, this stuff doesn't get me down. I'm in control. I avoid stuff I don't want to bother with. Life's too short.

5. I'm a little bit anti-religion. But what I don't do is seek out the bits of religion that might offend me (I'm not easily offended as it happens, which I know can be annoying). For example, as a somewhat anti-religious person, I don't go into Sunday Mass and come out ranting about how terrible the priest was in his sermon. I avoid Sunday Mass. If I came here and gave you a weekly report on the Sunday Mass down the Catholic church in Bude, you'd think I was mad. So all these people who, allegedly, depart from Mudcat because they have sought and found what they regard as nastiness - aren't they doing exactly the same thing? Are they really worth it? Of those seventy threads, I'd bet that sixty-three or four are bereft of "nastiness" in whatever sense you want to view it. So why do people really leave? It isn't an honest conversation this, is it?

6. Musket is dead right: the bigots, the homophobes, the racists, the fundamentalists must not be indulged. They must be ridiculed and confronted. We need to try to make the world a better place and indulging bad people is not the way to do it. And these are bad people. Even the ones who assume a gentle veneer. Soft faces, hard cases. If you're pissed off because you think this forum is worse than it was, try to recognise the people who truly drag it into the gutter. Anyone for a bit of anti-Darwinism now?

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Big Mick
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 08:44 PM

Exactly who did I call a name, Steve?

As to shutting it down to get the last word, there are two points that are instructive. 1) I gave everyone a lot of room and time to make their points. I didn't limit the discussion in any way. You voiced your opinion all through the thread. 2) It is my thread. If I think it has run its course, I can have it shut down. We do that for others as well. I have, at the request of the initiator (look it up), shut down threads at their request.

If the shoe fits, Steve, put that sucker on. Now ..... we will not hijack this thread with talk of that one anymore.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Janie
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 10:03 PM

Have typed and deleted more posts than I care to admit.

For myself, I will simply say I feel increasingly marginalized and unwelcomed here.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 10:57 PM

oh Janie! big kiss and give your bum a cyber squeeze! all these arguments are really daft. arguments between people who have never net each other. how daft is that!

very daft people indeed! its like I was trying to say and obviously not managing it with Divis and Keith. ard, who was no fool, reckoned Divis was a fantasist who didn't know the provisional IRA from Ira Gershwin, and there was Keith getting all worked up. and there were the Yanks treating his utterances as though they were interviewing the wild colonial boy.

late night love and kisses sweetie! don't run away!

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 06:41 AM

Divis and I were actually friends on pm, sharing experiences and joking about the progress of our rows in the threads.

Steve,
Musket is dead right: the bigots, the homophobes, the racists, the fundamentalists must not be indulged. They must be ridiculed and confronted

What a shame you are unable to challenge what they say, instead of ridicule and confrontation.
If only you were capable of winning the argument.

The fact is there are no racists, homophobes or bigots here, just people with different views to you who can not challenge so you denounce them instead.

You see bigotry where there is none.
Who asked you to ride in here and start denouncing people who have been here for years?
We liked things as they were thank you.
Go and save someone else please.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 07:25 AM

"Just because you are paranoid it doesn't mean they are not out to get you."
Like the old Irish story of the Irish wise woman who laid a curse on a farmer who wouldn't give her water at the time of the Famine.
She told him he would die, and sure enough, fifty years later he did.
Your fear/hate apprehension is both groundless and a clear indication of personal prejudice - whence the difference when it's aimed at "Muslims" rather than Muslim extremists.
I have never had any doubt that it was fear/hate that sent many millions of people to their deaths in the first half of the 20th century and the sad thing that they were all reasonable, civilised people who allowed it to happen.
"If only you were capable of winning the argument."
Still trying to "win" something Keith - why not buy a Lotto ticket?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: bobad
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 07:31 AM

"The fact is there are no racists, homophobes or bigots here, just people with different views to you who can not challenge so you denounce them instead."

Keith has got the right of it.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Musket
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 07:38 AM

Most certainly. He definitely is to the right of it.

I suppose his lack of understanding of the terms bigot and homophobe explain a few things even if they don't excuse them.

Nobody has been here for years Keith. Everybody sends in each post as their first ever post. No incremental pay rises, you fool.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 07:44 AM

The world according to Keith
Jim Carroll

"RE MUSLIM UNDERAGE SEX (my title – Jim Carroll)
Don, no one on this thread has claimed any of those things.
Don I do now " believe that all male Pakistani Muslims have a culturally implanted tendency" but only because of the testimony of all those knowledgeable people, and always acknowledging that only a tiny minority succumb.
Do you dismiss all that just because it does not fit your preconceptions, or do you have some powerful evidence to the contrary that you have not shared with us?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 12 Mar 14 - 07:13 AM
Re BRITISH CULPABILITY IN OUTCOME OF THE GREAT IRISH FAMINE
(my title - Jim Carroll)
"YOU HAVE HAD NOT ONE IOTO OF SUPPORT"
Not surprising when generations of school children have been brainwashed to believe Britain should be blamed, keeping hate alive.
Irish schools at least since 1922 and NY State schools since 1996 by decree.
Massachusetts?"

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 07:45 AM

This thread is about how our site has deteriorated since ranting people like you came along.
As Joe said, you are incapable of challenging what you disagree with and make up for your inadequacy with mindless attack using just ridicule and abuse.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 07:55 AM

Jim, if I was a racist would you have to go back over 4 years for a racist post which is not racist anyway?

It has but 3 sentences.
The first states clearly that no-one, least of all me "believes Muslims are all evil, oppressive, chauvinist, paedophile rapists, made so by their cultural upbringing."

The second says that I merely had come to accept what prominent members of that community said about their own culture.

The third asks why you do not heed them, a question still unanswered.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 07:59 AM

"This thread is about"
I take it you cross-posted - I would appreciate your opinion on the fact that the above statements, the first in particular, represent a sweeping attack on, in the first case, an entire racial group, and in the second, two, two ethnic cultures, both would contravene British law if they were made publicly
It really is time you were prevented from turning this site into a sewer.
By the way - if none of this is true, please feel free to report me to a site adjudicator - you really do have a right to.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 09:15 AM

Two bigots post to deny that there are bigots here. Says it all.

Keith, old chap, I doubt that there's anyone here who engages in the argument more than I do. Don't talk rubbish.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 09:25 AM

Yes it was a cross post Jim.

the first in particular, represent a sweeping attack on, in the first case, an entire racial group

Of course not. Racial groups are not homogeneous so no thinking, intelligent person would ever do such a thing.
I was saying that I had come to believe what those eminent people had all said about their own culture, having no knowledge of it myself.

The second statement referred to the fact that those schools taught that Britain was culpable for the famine even though most historians denied it.

I have never said anything that would be illegal anywhere, and all this has been explained to you many times before.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 09:32 AM

Steve, I have never made a remotely bigoted statement, it is just that I have disagreed with you.

If anyone did make one, you could always expose and challenge it instead of just saying "Witch!" or in this case "Bigot!"

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Musket
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 09:35 AM

100

Back for part 2 after these words from our sponsor

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 09:37 AM

Musket, we are all hugely impressed that you have learned to swear, as most of us did at Infants', but it would be more impressive if you produced one of these bigoted posts and explained what made it so.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Musket
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 09:42 AM

Room 101

That's where you should park your hubris Keith.

Go on then, you try challenging Goofus or the worm with rational argument. Not possible. Partly because in the case of the worm, his lack of intelligence means he is fortified by your support for his claims.

Or do you really, actually, honestly think it ok when he makes sweeping statements that gay men don't love but just want sex, or that marriage should be called "marriage" if you hold the law in contempt? As you say you have no disrespect for gay people, why are dismissing as fair comment when he broadens his disdain for gay lifestyle by bringing in paedophilia and sex between family members as comparisons?

No bigotry here, is there Keith.

Witch!!

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 09:52 AM

It is very widely believed that marriage is by definition mixed sex.
It is a valid opinion and not bigotry.

To my knowledge no-one has ever stated that "that gay men don't love but just want sex."

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 10:06 AM

"Jim, if I was a racist would you have to go back over 4 years for a racist post which is not racist anyway?"
Sio it's not racist to describe "all Male Pakistani Muslims" to have a cultural implant tending them to having sex with underage girls
My, my - what a racist place the Britain you lie in must be nowadays.

You had reiterated that this remains your view whenever I bring it up - so it is as fresh as this morning's milk (probably not an apt comparison - fresh, that is - it's the stuff of sewers.
Your attack on Irish and Irish Americans was made this month and has been reiterated this week.
I cannot possibly see how you can be allowed to continue pumping out your filth on this forum
At the very least, the site administrators should ascertain that yur postings are kept within the law.
"The third asks why you do not heed them,"
I have answered this numerous times - they made no such claims - it is one of your own sick invention
Had they made such claims publicly they would have been in breach of British law, as you would had you the bottle to take it outside
It is, no doubt, the view of many in the B.N.P., but even they draw a line at stating it publicly for fear of spoiling their election chances.
"Divis and I were actually friends on pm"
That's a bit odd, isn't it - wasn't he one of those who complained about when your real name was made public during an argument, and when one of your opponents identified your daughter and suggested that she was on the game?
I was one of those who protested at the time.
You really should choose your friends more carefully.
You seem to be living in a world far removed from the one the rest of us occupy.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Musket
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 10:30 AM

Keith..

Can you read?

A ten second trawl finds in the discussion of HIV transmission the following;

Posted 1 April.   "Male homosexuals (MSM) are defined by who they like to have sex with, NOT by who they love."

In the same post, we see;

"Heterosexual marriage is an excellent template for society, but the prevalence of "open relationships" amongst the male homosexual community is extremely risky and unhealthy in today's sexual climate."

(Notwithstanding the worm's mixing of MSM with homosexual, which is like saying a girl enjoys a good fuck even if she claims to be a virgin.)

That's just one found within a minute of trying.

Tell you what, hang on, let's scroll down a couple of posts shall we?

30 March. "Many male homosexual relationships, unions and "marriages" are "open" by common consent."   Then we get "As such, they are radically different from conventional heterosexual marriages which are for the large part monogamous.. And next paragraph, "The studies also suggest that these "open" relationships which include multiple sexual partners are an additional risk in HIV transmission."   

By the way, there are thousands of rapists in prison and many more not caught yet. It must be very widely believed that the law is wrong, eh Keith?

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 10:31 AM

Musket, I do not need to do that, I have been reading his posts for years.
I say there are no examples of bigotry and challenge you to produce one.

Jim, it is a fact that Divis and I became friends and I still have dozens of his pms to prove it.

they made no such claims - it is one of your own sick invention

You have seen them many times Jim.
They all stated that the culture led to the offending, or do you deny that easily proven fact?

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Big Mick
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 10:37 AM

Talk about thick .......

The three of you continue to make the point. Take it outside, will ya? I guess you are relevant to the discussion because you are giving a perfect example of what drives interesting, valued folks away. You follow each other around like hounds on a trail, taking over threads, and calling each other foul names. You make the same charges at each other over and over. Boorish behaviour to say the least.

It is a damn good thing I am simply a moderator complying with the owners wishes. If I owned the site you would all be gone. I'll probably get in trouble for saying that, but I just don't care. You lads need to wise up.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 10:41 AM

"Male homosexuals (MSM) are defined by who they like to have sex with, NOT by who they love."

True, as it is true that heterosexual are defined by their sexual preference.
The two terms define sexual preference.

"Heterosexual marriage is an excellent template for society, but the prevalence of "open relationships" amongst the male homosexual community is extremely risky and unhealthy in today's sexual climate."

Do you really deny that multiple concurrent partners is risky and unhealthy?
NAT states it is the cause of high infection rates.

"Many male homosexual relationships, unions and "marriages" are "open" by common consent."
I am sure many are, so that is a statement of fact.

"As such, they are radically different from conventional heterosexual marriages which are for the large part monogamous.

Open marriages ARE different from conventional monogamous ones.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 10:41 AM

"Here I sit so patiently
Waiting to find out what price
You have to pay to get out of
Going through all this stuff twice"

Gospel of Bob

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Ed T
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 11:01 AM

"You can only be young once. But you can always be immature." Dave Barry

"I did not trip and fall. I attacked the floor and I believe I am winning" Anonymous

 "Sometimes when I close my eyes, I can't see" Anonymous 

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 11:20 AM

"The three of you continue to make the point. Take it outside, will ya?
Sorry Mick
I am on the point of asking to have this guy expelled from Mudcat - he really has done enough damage to this forum and needs to be stopped.
As much as I respect you and our past encounters, I really have no intention of walking away now, especially as his behaviour is now aimed directly at members of my family.
You please yourself.
"they made no such claims - it is one of your own sick invention "
If they didn't somebody did Mt Acheson
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Musket
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 11:36 AM

As this a place for opinion and challenging perceptions, would Mick agree that I was wrong about Keith?

I apologise.

I said he came out with comments that supported those who exhibit homophobia.

I was wrong.

He is as twisted and not fit for human consumption as the other disgraceful turds.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 11:39 AM

Keith
I have become a little tired of being called a liar by a congenital liar.
You did a runner from the Irish Famine site because you were caught out in one of your own lies - on the same site.
Please do not do it again
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 11:45 AM

I do not lie Jim, and I stopped posting on that thread because you stopped denying the only point I was making.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: frogprince
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 11:54 AM

Has it ever occurred to some of these folks that there might be some tiny, subtle difference between (1) clearly and forcefully making your point if you find something expressed here unacceptable, and (2)
beating your point to death, stomping it all over the floor, smearing it up the walls, taking a dump in the middle of it, and flinging it all at everyone who passes by, for weeks and months on end ?

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Big Mick
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 12:03 PM

Dear Jim and Keith, et al,

In every thread? No matter the subject of the thread?

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Ed T
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 12:07 PM

"Is it good if a vacuum really sucks?" Anonymous quote

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Musket
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 12:08 PM

Yes Frogprince and hopefully, people will carry on showing that hate and bigotry have no place in society till the hate merchants have nowhere to go where their odious filth is accepted.

Decent people deserve better than old men with personality disorder publishing lies about them.

That a whole section of society are into sex not love and that they as an identified group cheat on their husbands and boyfriends is beneath contempt.

So, who's up for a bit of nigger bashing? After all, how many niggers post on Mudcat? After queers,they are the next highest group to spread HIV. You never know, a normal person might infected if we don't single them out for hate.




Anyone got a bucket handy?

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 12:41 PM

"In every thread? No matter the subject of the thread?"
Again - with respect Mick.
This thread was opened to discuss what has happened to this forum
Keith entered it quite early with the below posting.
This was before any of us mentioned the subject - to be quite honest, I really wasn't going to bother posting.
He has been indulging in racism and sectarianism for several years now - it has become a one-man crusade on his part and, following his latest attack on the Irish (my family, friends and neighbours), I have decided that he should be stopped or that I disassociate myself with a forum that allows such behaviour to the extent is is now happening.
It as all very well to suggest that we ignore him - he dominates every single thread he is on, swamping them with his postings - I would guess that his postings number nearly twice as many as any other member of this forum.
Walking away would mean that those of us who are interested in the subjects that he has admitted he is not interested enough to have learned anything about beforehand - he slaughters thread after thread with his war of attrition, last-man-standing technique.
I am no longer prepared to remain a member of a forum which allows such behaviour.
He started this - for me it is a point where I have to decide whether to hang round and let him continue to destroy what I find an enjoyable and educational forum, or go away and leave him to it - simple as that.
Apologies again
Jim Carroll

From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 09:16 AM
We have always had that kind of person, but I do not remember a pack of them before.
I am not aware of any racists or homophobes here, but the pack sees them.
They can just tell and, as Musket and Steve just told us, they think that makes it OK to go after them.
Or, if a gentle person tries to explain why he believes in creation.
r if the most reasonable longstanding Mudcat member I can think of tries to discuss religious persecution, a week later he has to ask that his thread be closed.
There is a changed environment here now

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 12:47 PM

It is very widely believed [sic] that marriage is by definition mixed sex.

Look up weasel words on wiki, Keith.

That might well be your imperialistic western view of marriage, but it is not shared by everyone on this planet, not by a long chalk, not even in the west. But imperialistic western views are the only ones you espouse, as we know from your attitude to Palestine, for example.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 12:50 PM

I fully support Jim. It seems to me that the moderators here only ever tell us off for having a shout at people. They never seem to address the real poison on the forum.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 12:52 PM

Just an addition to Keith's behaviour
He is at this moment attacking two of us on a thread neither of us are involved in
That is the level of his respect for members of this forum
He is an out-of-control nut-case
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 12:54 PM

he dominates every single thread he is on, swamping them with his postings - I would guess that his postings number nearly twice as many as any other member of this forum.

Just for the record I decided to check

Keith A - 12339 posts
Jim C - 10038 posts

By comparison

Big Mick - 10421 posts
Me (DtG) - 12875 posts

So do I win or lose? One beauty of this place is that it is so easy to check things like earlier posts and posting history. Wonder why more people don't?

:D tG

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 01:10 PM

All academic now Dave - I'm gone
I no longer wish to remain a member of a forum that allows racist attacks on entire ethnic communities and who allows member to attack other members behind their backs from other threads.
Keith has turned Mudcat into a slimehole for me - you are welcome to him and good luck
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 01:16 PM

Bye, Jim. Good luck wherever you go.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 01:17 PM

I have met Keith A and Dave the Gnome in person, they are two pleasant people who have an interest in folk music, I try not to make judgements about anyone based on their communications on the internet.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 01:23 PM

Dick, how could you, say I was a pleasant person and then add the vicious calumny that I "have an interest in folk music"! What kind of impression do you think that gives to the general public?

:D tG

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 01:25 PM

Look up weasel words on wiki, Keith.
That might well be your imperialistic western view of marriage,

It is not my view.
I favour gay marriage, but it IS very widely believed that marriage is by definition mixed sex.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 01:51 PM

Oh dear, I stopped responding to Ian,s (musket)nonsense long ago, but I am sorry Keith is having to correct the lies and distortions that he prints about me. i suggest everyone stops responding until he behaves in a reasonable way, or shows any comprehension as to the posts of others.

If he really is as clueless as he seems, how on earth does he hold down a responsible job with any health service?   It's frightening!
I'm not going to try to rectify all his misunderstandings, but the ones he quoted are so bloody obvious that i suppose i might as well make my meaning clear for the "intellectually challenged"

All sexual groupings are defined by who they prefer to have sex with, NOT who they love......Homosexuals(same sex)....heterosexuals (male/female ).....Paedophiles (pre-pubescent children)...there are many groupings ALL defined by who they prefer to have sex with, NOT who they "love"

The facts about "open relationships" among MSM were directly from a US study which I linked to in my post. Almost 50% of all MSM "marriages" unions, were self described as "open relationships" in the area of the study. They were said to include numerous sexual partners, which the authors described as a "health risk" associated with HIV transmission.

I always put homosexual "marriage" in inverted commas, as I do not agree with the redefinition of the institution of marriage, to accommodate a tiny sexual minority (1.5 of the adult population.
I simply do not agree with the legislation.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 01:57 PM

Ake. Simple question. Do you believe all homosexuals are perverts?

DtG

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Ed T
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 01:57 PM

Boring!- a better word is needed? 

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Musket
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 02:30 PM

I was going to say something else, but I'll leave it with asking the moderators if they can't confront incitement to hate, perhaps the end justifies the means by noting the worm has said I have a job with the health service and questioning my fitness for purpose.

That I am not a healthcare manager anyway is neither here nor there.

If you don't agree with the law, tell it to a criminal website, because it can form the basis of no argument in a forum of law abiding people.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 02:42 PM

"Sexual groupings?" Jaysus, mods. The day someone apprises me of the sexual grouping I belong to is the day I metaphorically punch the bugger on the nose. This is what you're letting this board turn into. Shame!

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Musket
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 03:09 PM

He's bound to use terms such as sexual groupings, as he has a puerile fascination with anal sex. He thinks all gay men indulge in anal sex for starters and uses the term MSM to mean homosexual.

Creepy little sod, isn't he? Keith has finally shown his true colours too.

A sad day that such awful hurtful comments are still on the website. A true stain.

I call them every nasty but true thing I can think of, but that is reaction to criminal comment. Millions of gay people have done nothing wrong to have them spew their bile and try to claim they are second class citizens.

Keith sums it up when he justifies bigotry by pointing out that respect for the law is optional if it means you have to respect the rights of others.

That's the beauty of the internet. They don't necessarily have to look anybody in the face who knows the odious views they shout. Luckily, I don't have to look at them either.




Still waiting for the moderators to say whether I am fit for purpose in a job I don't have?

By the way worm. Any healthcare professional, including manager who in their professional capacity said what you are saying, they would be in front of a fitness to practice panel for the clinician and suspended pending investigation in all cases. Incitement to hatred is a criminal offence. Twisting health statistics to justify it can get you struck off.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Leadbelly
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 04:25 PM

Ed T : Excactly!!

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 04:37 PM

Jim Carroll: "'Incitement to hatred is a criminal offence.' Should this guy be charged?

GfS

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 04:50 PM

No idea of the US law Sanitry
As far as I'm concerned, anybody who provokes hatred against any group- gender, race... whatever; are sickos and should be liable to prosecution.
One of the good o'l traditional pastimes when I lived in London was "queerbashing" - teams of fellers who went around kicking the shit out of any man they believed to be gay.
I don't suppose your man's message world have been much of a comfort to the feller who had to carry his teeth home in his pocket - wadya think?
God's mysterious ways never cease to bemuse me
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 04:51 PM

The "pack" must have lost the little bit of sense they had.

How can anyone think, that heteros or homosexuals are NOT sexual groupings?
The mind boggles!

This ideology that they hold is surely a sort of madness?

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 04:53 PM

What could be boring about the same 6 or 7 people having the same argument all the time?

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 05:06 PM

Jim's had more farewell's to Mudcat than a PROPER diva.

Don't worry I'm sure he'll keep us entertained for a long time to come. :0)

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 05:15 PM

A symptom of a 'psychotic' is that they never learn from past mistakes!..and they become 'boring'...no matter how much 'passion' they express...

Enjoy the piece...seems apropos!


GfS

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 05:16 PM

Jack, I've been trying to keep out of this, don't respond to abuse from Ian, remain civil at all times, play by your rules, but how much lying and distortion do you expect me to put up with?

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 05:23 PM

but how much lying and distortion do you expect me to put up with?

At the risk of being boring. Ake, do you believe that all homosexuals are perverts? I will accept that I could have misunderstood your point about sex defining people. I will also accept that you have now changed your stance on forced testing. Putting marriage in quotes is stupid but, hey, a lot of people do worse. There is only the above question left.

DtG

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 05:36 PM

You are being boring Dave. I thought you were safely ensconsed with your friends in Room 101.

Anyway, I have been getting into trouble for repeating myself, so for the last time..... I don't know, as neither you nor anyone else has furnished me with a reasoned argument as to why homosexuality is NOT a perversion.

I will never give up hope....patiently waiting.....farewell......

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 05:43 PM

For fuck's sakes DtG, if you know he is going to say the same thing why do you keep bringing it up.

Pissing on stones isn't going to turn them into corn flakes.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 05:46 PM

I have provided the reasoned argument but you rejected it. Love between consenting adults can never be a perversion. So you DO believe that all homosexuals are perverts? I think that pretty much sums up your views on homosexuality.

And don't worry, as long as you carry on calling a whole group of society perverts, including some people I know and respect, I will continue defending them. Your futile arguments don't have the capability to fool any right minded person.

DtG

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 05:51 PM

For fuck's sakes DtG, if you know he is going to say the same thing why do you keep bringing it up.

Errrrr, because he keeps insisting that homosexuals are perverts maybe? If we let him get away with it he will think it is OK to incite hatred? A couple of reasons to keep you going. BTW - Why do you keep on posting when you resigned from Mudcat some weeks back?

DtG

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Ed T
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 06:02 PM

Gfs, An interesting perspective, which may relate to your earlier thread to Jim Carroll. Note that I am not attempting to get into the other discussion- just providing something for consideration that may relate to "the great puzzle", that likely has no simple "one size fits all) answer.

Another perspective on "situational homosexuality" 

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 06:19 PM

BTW - Why do you keep on posting when you resigned from Mudcat some weeks back?

That's not what I did.

Since you are so fond of poking holes why don't you get yourself a freaking dart board. You'll do more to rid the world of hatred by do that than you will pissing all over this forum.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 06:24 PM

well if I were a gay muslim ......I would go wherever Jim has gone....Ireland or somewhere like that, and I wouldn't bandy words with the likes of you lot.

its black tights and a short skirt for me. Riverdance rocks!

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 06:37 PM

Since you are so fond of poking holes why don't you get yourself a freaking dart board. You'll do more to rid the world of hatred by do that than you will pissing all over this forum.

I don't need a dartboard thanks, I don't play darts, but if I did there is a standard one in my nearest pub and a Manchester board in the next one. I really don't know what you mean by 'pissing all over this forum' unless it is that you think I make it damp and smelly. Do you? How is Carol BTW? Not seen her on here for ages. Has she decided that it is too boring? Or is she just too embarrassed by the antics of some members?

:D tG

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Jeri
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 06:49 PM

Al, if someone takes piccies of you, please tell me where I can see them.

I feel like I may be interrupting a lover's quarrel, or at least a family one. Lots of children with uncle-daddies in it, but hey.
We don't have laws against hate SPEECH here, no "incitement to hatred". We have "incitement to violence laws" and "hate crimes", that are pretty much just crimes, but inspired by hatred.

If we had laws against hate speech, a few radio/TV commentators, a few ("few"?!") Teaprats, the fucking Westboro Baptist idiots, and Fox "news" would be in jail forever. I don't like the concept of disallowing speech of any sort, but I can sort of see a few perks.

And why is it you guys (Brits) think it's heinous to incite hatred of a group of people, but you're perfectly find targeting/hounding/bullying one single individual? I don't get what makes that sort of hatred acceptable.

Fundamentally, this difference is what's at the heart of much of the discord in threads that you guys fuck up are persistently involved in. We don't get you, and you don't get us.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 07:00 PM

I have a wife and two kids. I'm 62 but love to see all the bikinis and the midriffs and the pert/squishy bums (at 62 one is not fussy) that summer brings to Bude. Mmmm, squishy bums... The missus finds this very amusing but I always riposte with the "use or or lose it" argument. I have several gay friends, some of whom are in relationships and some who are not. I have even more friends that are in live-together setups for who marriage is an irrelevance. I love 'em all. Come round to my house, Akenhateon, and tell me what "sexual grouping" I'm in. After I've metaphorically punched you on you metaphorically-bigoted nose, I'll ring up the Jehovah's Witnesses and ask them to come round for some light relief.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 07:02 PM

Yes, OK Jeri, I see where you are coming from. The fact of the matter is, for me at any rate, is that I don't hate anyone on here. What I do dislike immensely is that fact that someone can get away with tarring a whole bunch of very nice people as perverts and you, the moderators, think that it is acceptable. I know you have a hard job to do but my simple little mind cannot understand why you cannot see the difference between negatively stereotyping gays and calling all blacks rapists or all Jews misers.

Can you really not get it? That I will stand against such ridiculous statements? I have never targeted an individual. If ANYONE, including you, stated that gay people were perverted I would argue against them. Is it really so difficult?

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 07:02 PM

What she said.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 07:03 PM

And why is it you guys (Brits) think it's heinous to incite hatred of a group of people, but you're perfectly find targeting/hounding/bullying one single individual? I don't get what makes that sort of hatred acceptable.

Fundamentally, this difference is what's at the heart of much of the discord in threads that you guys fuck up are persistently involved in. We don't get you, and you don't get us.

Perhaps you'd care to tell us what in Christ's name you're talking about.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 07:08 PM

Steve Shaw, You are the only person I know of who is illiterate and blames the writer for what he can't read. here is a suggestion. I'm sure that the Walt Disney companies have forums aimed at your reading level.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 07:19 PM

Steve Shaw, You are the only person I know of who is illiterate and blames the writer for what he can't read. here is a suggestion. I'm sure that the Walt Disney companies have forums aimed at your reading level.

Well, Wackeroo, had I typed your short post I would have used a small "y" for "you" and I would have used a capital H for "here". I could also point out the ambiguity in "blames the writer for what he can't read". Not sure whether, with that little "he", you mean me or the writer there, Wacko! Still, I'm illiterate and you're not, eh? One fine day you will learn that taking me on over my use of and understanding of English is very unwise. Now do be silent for a while, you red-faced little pillock! :-)


What's the difference between Bing Crosby and Walt Disney?


Bing Crosby sings but Walt disnae....

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 08:26 PM

if you're not illiterate Steve....prove it! by gad sir, I've taken on bigger illiterates than you.

I've had object correlatives sprawled at my feet begging for mercy. I've split infinitives with my bare hands.

you watch it mate!

anyone who says my mate Ake doesn't know about perverts, is a bit of stinker!

no wonder our American friends want you locked up and quarantined.

Robert Louis Stevenson had it right   - beware the hoose of Shaws!

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Jeri
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 09:16 PM

Dave, I started writing that before you posted. I do think you enjoy doing trolls, which you've pretty much said yourself, but the "persistently involved in" part was most definitely other people.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 12:27 AM

Jim Carroll posted this above:

All academic now Dave - I'm gone
I no longer wish to remain a member of a forum that allows racist attacks on entire ethnic communities and who allows member to attack other members behind their backs from other threads.
Keith has turned Mudcat into a slimehole for me - you are welcome to him and good luck
Jim Carroll

This is the response I e-mailed to him:

Hi, Jim -

I really appreciate your knowledge of folk music and the information you've contributed over the years. I hope that won't stop - we are building a valuable body of knowledge at Mudcat, and I don't think there is any better place for building such a body of knowledge.

I think the BS section of Mudcat has shown itself to be well-nigh useless, just a place for people to be nasty and show their worst attributes.

And I think you have shown some of your worst in the BS section. You display the typical British Isles attitude that discussions must be controlled, and distasteful points of view should not be permitted.

I quote you:
I cannot possibly see how you can be allowed to continue pumping out your filth on this forum
At the very least, the site administrators should ascertain that yur postings are kept within the law.

He has been indulging in racism and sectarianism for several years now - it has become a one-man crusade on his part and, following his latest attack on the Irish (my family, friends and neighbours), I have decided that he should be stopped or that I disassociate myself with a forum that allows such behaviour to the extent is is now happening.

I am no longer prepared to remain a member of a forum which allows such behaviour.

I think all of these refer to Keith A of Hertford. I generally don't agree with Keith's opinions, but I certainly don't see them as dramatically horrible as you and some others appear to perceive them.

And no, I do not agree that Mudcat has any obligation to refuse to allow such comments from Keith and others who hold his point of view. If we don't allow opposing points of view, how can we discuss anything?

I've been very grateful over the years for all the musical help and information you've given me on Mudcat and privately. Personally, I like you very much, even though we have at times had bitter disagreements. I hope some day we will meet in person, and I predict we'll have a great time together.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Bert
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 12:27 AM

Thanks for clearing the air on that one Joe.

I stand corrected.

I still miss the silly bugger though.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 12:29 AM

This is substantially cheaper than daycare.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 12:30 AM

I miss Shambles, too, Bert. He and his wife were supposed to visit me here in California, and then he blew up at me and became my sworn enemy. Don't know if he ever made it here, but he didn't contact me. Too bad. I think we could have had a good time together.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 01:15 AM

I often wondered how complacency allows hate to flourish.

I've stopped wondering.

The only thing that surprises me is the lack of take up for my suggestion that we discuss how to hate niggers.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 01:52 AM

Right, Musket. We have to silence all those people who say bad things and put them in jail or execute them or something like that. And we have to do the same to people who let those people say bad things.

Yeah, right....

The mentality of the British Isles: suppress anything that isn't acceptable, and it will go away and life will be wonderful.

Sorry, but I'd much rather see us err on the side of freedom of expression. Your thinking sounds too much like Orwell's 1984.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 02:00 AM

....and it's frightening to think that when I read 1984, that year was far away in the unimaginable future...

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Megan L
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 02:15 AM

Joe I know certain folk are frustrating but please do not throw blankets that is not "THE BRITISH MENTALITY" it is the opinion of a small but vociferous group of rather small minded people.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 02:23 AM

'Guest': "This is substantially cheaper than daycare."

Yeah?..Well SOME of us don't need daycare!

Ed T,
Ed T, An interesting perspective, which may relate to my earlier thread to Jim Carroll. Note that I am not attempting to get into the other discussion- just providing something for consideration that may relate to "the great puzzle", that likely has no simple "one size fits all) answer.

I'm aware of the perspective of your link...and I'll take you one further... Latent homosexuality...and there is a lot of it, Women dressing to impress other women, men trying to impress other guys by being 'more macho', when those are taken to extremes....

Steve Shaw: "I have several gay friends, some of whom are in relationships and some who are not. I have even more friends that are in live-together setups for who marriage is an irrelevance. I love 'em all."

Well, if you 'love them all' encourage them to get tested, so the number in 'all' won't decrease!
....as far as:
Steve: "The missus finds this very amusing but I always riposte with the "use or or lose it" argument."

Most of your posted are pretty indicative of that...you've lost it and are still trying to use it!

Joe Offer: "I think the BS section of Mudcat has shown itself to be well-nigh useless, just a place for people to be nasty and show their worst attributes."

You think??...I think that if one scours the posts, there is PLENTY of good lyrical material content....I know...I've given you all a ton of them!
(Which, in one of my earliest posts, I said I'd do!)~~~(wink!)....

AND, there is this GEM from a guy named 'Joe'...

Joe Offer: """If I understand him correctly, Jesus says that all Scripture is to be interpreted with two basic laws in mind:

    Love God above all things
    Love your neighbor as yourself

If you keep these two principles in mind and remember that they may not be violated under any circumstances, the rest of Scripture starts to make sense - and it's impossible to honestly move to the extremes of interpretation.""

....and you have been quoted!!!!

Thank You...!!!!

GfS

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 02:36 AM

GfS: You still got the yahoo account?

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 02:49 AM

Megan L, I'm sure there are many in the British Isles who don't think that way, but this thinking that Mudcat should not "allow" things to be expressed comes from posters from the British Isles, and only from the British Isles.

According to some posters from the British Isles, Mudcat should be criminally prosecuted for allowing people like Keith and akenaton to speak what they think. I used to get more-or-less the same thing for my failure to suppress Lizzie Cornish. Suppressing speech is completely appalling to us in America.

I usually disagree with Keith and akenaton, but I think they have a right to say what they say.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 02:53 AM

Dave, if you read the text of my original post on the subject, you may be able to comprehend this.

"Homosexuals" are defined by who they prefer to have sex with.
That is not to say that they are incapable of "love""


It is all clearly explained in the original post, sex is possible without "love".....Love is possible without "sex"?
On homosexuality as a perversion, I am still an agnostic.

I am a bit fed up with having my words distorted in every post...Ake.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 03:06 AM

Cross posted, thank you Joe.

Keith and I disagree, about many things, but I admire him as an honest and free thinking individual.
The important thing about free speech is that you always try to be completely accurate in what you say and what you quote, and that your beliefs and reasonable and sincere....at least to yourself.

You are correct about the difference in mindset between many UKers and those from the US, I find your attitude admirable and positive, while many here practice a "faith" of political ideology, which is insidious and negative.

I salute you and your countrymen...and women.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Amos
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 03:24 AM

It's fascinating how peckerheaded folks can get. This thread is a classic example. It starts off on one topic and tehn the Usual Suspects move in like a cluster of razor-toothed fish on a river pig, sawing and nibbling with complete focus, not to say compulsion and obsession, apparently unaware of the illogical dingery in which they are thrashing.,

There is a ratio between signal and noise that has to be maintained for a sense of continuity and a minimum level of harmony to occur in a discussion.   Blind quibbles get tedious, blind quibbling is boring, and blind quibblers wear on the patience.

That said, my opinion on the issue of ISlam or any other "ism", cult, religion, faith or body of belief is that the insanity is always individual and the fanaticism is always a personal madness. It simply doesn't fly to tar wide swaths of humanity with the same brush. The faith is usually an excuse for the dramatization of individual mental illness to leak out. Absent the individual mental illness, the faith doesn't instill fanaticism.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Musket
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 08:14 AM

I know you don't get it about The UK Joe.

after all, in The USA, you've never had people who challenge bigotry have you?

I suggest you read up on Martin Luther King, he had that small minded UK attitude too... I wonder where he came from? I will take lectures on the USA verses UK the day The USA stops killing its prisoners, torturing terror suspects and putting the rights of small pricks with big guns over the lives of those they kill.

Homophobes and bigots do have the right to their view. Horrible as they are , they are views. I have the right to challenge small minded views too. I used to inspect prisons and mental health hospitals, including the forensic end of the market, I am used to hearing views and weighing them against society's expectation.   No. I don't accept them as valid views, and neither does society at large. Why? Because they are views that are detrimental to others. They single out whole sections of society and state how they shouldn't have rights, that their choice of wife or husband is perverted.

And I shall carry on pointing out that there are people who like folk music who may wish to come to this website and yet it needs a warning that if you are gay you may be offended because the moderators can't tell the difference between free speech and words that set out to cause inequality and harm.

Reminds me a bit of "Fuck 'em, they're only Jews."

And what's more, I refuse point blank to accept that anybody could side with people who don't see fellow humans as equal.

You should become religious Joe. They keep harping on about all equal under God or some such waffle.

You might learn humility.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 08:23 AM

Joe
You have my reply to your message, which I received this morning - thank you.
I would be happy for you to put it up for public viewing, as I believe it expresses all the misgivings I feel about what I has happened to Mudcat over the last few years.
I have resigned from membership of this forum because I believe it is being used inappropriately by a small number of people; I have made it clear that I believe that, had some of the statements that have been made here, been made outside of the internet, they would be in breach of British law regarding incitement to race and cultural hatred.
Discussion on certain topics on Mudcat has become a personal embarrassment among people who come across those discussions casually
It is with deep regret that I have come to my decision; my time here has been both enjoyable and educational.
I send my best wishes to all who I have exchanged ideas with and learned from.
Good luck
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 08:28 AM

I guess you're right Joe =we do tend to let people know if we think articulating their ideas is likely to cause trouble. also we don't allow people access to guns.

the difference is I suppose that our country has been bombed by fascists, Irish republicans, Islamic extremists - well you've had that last one yourself. not nice, is it?

we even had one bastard who set off a nail bomb in a gay pub -presumably he thought they were sub human perverts.

having said that I sympathise with you.

Ake is an old guy who lives near a loch in Scotland. to stop him jumping in, he shares his thought with us.
Keith believes someone who says - or implies they have stood on top of the Divis flats in Belfast and shot English soldiers. people who have actually done that tend to keep quiet. Keith sees redeeming qualities in the Daily Mail.
Jim is an old guy rightly proud of his association with the greatest folksingers in the cannon of British folk music. However - he is so far out whack that he cannot bring himself to admit that Bob Dylan and Donovan inspired 10 times more people to enter folk club than Ewan ever did.

Either way they are elderly gentlemen (admittedly crotchety) come to Mudcat for fellowship - and them being called names by Steve and other self righteous souls is an unedifying sight.

I apologise for my fellow countrymen.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 08:30 AM

love mudcat! bs - particularly!

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Big Mick
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 08:42 AM

Musket, congratulations! You win today's "If I can't win the game I will fuck up the board" award. It takes a high degree of skill at obfuscation to win this award., congratulations lad! That last post was a masterful piece of burying specific points raised by Joe in a pile of generalizations that only vaguely relate to his specific analysis. You very skillfully mixed in your view of the colonials with your high road victims status. I am impressed.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 08:55 AM

Me too.

Why do some people demand censorship?
If they could win an argument they would not need to.

I find I am never challenged on what I actually say.
Often I am attacked for what those people wrongly infer to be my position.
More often they misrepresent what I have said, and attack me for things I never have and never would say.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 08:57 AM

Me too (love mudcat! bs - particularly! )

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 09:17 AM

don't recall Martin Luther King slinging round shit and abuse, Musket. generally speaking I thought he was rather dignified.

as gene Kelly said in singing in the rain...dignity! dignity! at all times dignity!

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 09:18 AM

Musket.

We respect Dr. King. Dr. King didn't put words in other people's mouths. Dr. King didn't try to turn every conversation with a bigot into a conversation about bigotry. Dr. King persuaded. Dr. King didn't bully. Dr. King didn't drive people away. Dr. King brought people together.

Please do not compare yourself to Dr. King again. I find that far far more offensive than anything Akenaton gas ever said.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Musket
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 09:37 AM

I'm a twat though, unlike Dr King.

I also made quite sure I did not compare myself to him. In fact I couldn't wait for the stupidity of the replies. Cheers Jack..... I compare myself to anybody who will not make excuses for bigotry, and if that includes Martin Luther King or Mrs Bloggs then I am also similar in having two legs and an itchy arse.

I posted it waiting for the indignation that someone might invoke Dr King into the debate.

Well done.

Think about it, your complacency and acceptance of hate whilst castigating those who oppose it means one thing. You revere a national hero of whom you've never read or understood a single fucking word of what he said....

Amazing.



Al. You are too nice. Blessed are the meek for they shall inhibit the earth. I'll go out with a huge great bang, if it's all the same.

So just so I know the etiquette around here. You can call people, including some Mudcat members perverted and you can say they prefer sex to love and you can say their marriages promote transmission of HIV and that ok. You live near a loch. A bigger fucking monster than Nessie but you live near a lock so that's ok.

Challenge such hate and you are small minded and you are a censor to boot.

Yes. I am a censor. No problem though, I have a solution.

Www.mudcatbutifyouaregayyoumaybeupsetby whatisallowedtobepublishedinapublicplace.com

Now, we can say what we think about poufs, queers, shirt lifters, niggers, pakis, sheep shagging welsh twats and banjo players.

And we can't say we didn't warn them.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 09:54 AM

Sheesh. Apart from the fact that I appear to have been accused of calling Jim names (check your facts, please, Al), this thread has been disingenuously steered into straw-man territory. I don't want anyone to be censored (though incitement to hatred laws should be obeyed: there is a limit to free speech). But I don't want to be continually shouted down for railing ardently against bigots by people who are at best indulgent with and at worst silent about said bigots. The only way to confront bigotry is to confront it. That might include telling the bigot why he's a bigot and ridiculing him in the open if he fails to recant. And don't tell me I'm doing judge and jury as to who's a bigot. They are ludicrously easy to spot, but, unfortunately, just as easy to be in denial about, it seems.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 10:50 AM

Mudcat has not become boring because of heated and largely misguided controversies. Mudcat BS has become boring because of infinite repetition. Some may enjoy this for sadomasochistic motives or have nothing better to do with their time. Others feel the can "win" by having the last word; this never works. If you have a convincing point to make, make it once. If opposing views follow, reply only if you have news, otherwise keep silent. Readers will know what to make of it; usually the earlier posts get most attention.

The most enjoyable threads are those which attract enough reasonable or funny posts so that trolls and bickerers can be ignored ostentatiously. A particularly attractive and new topic may do the trick, or a thread creator who is an interesting or highly respected person.

For example, the success of a Song Challenge depends on a moderator who inspires creativity and whose appreciation is considered a prize. The following procedure may help finding the right person: members who consider participating make suggestions to Joe privately, by PM or email. As soon as a person has accumulated enough votes, s/he is informed by Joe, again privately so that s/he can refuse. Also, the rules should be changed to suit the new moderator's personality.

My proposal for a Tune Writing Challenge (entries by ABC notation) has not yet found many supporters; I am waiting patiently. The moderator may be determined similarly, with more emphasis on musical competence.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: bobad
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 10:50 AM

"They are ludicrously easy to spot,"

Indeed they are, they are the ones habitually screaming bigot at anyone who opposes their views.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 11:04 AM

'Guest'...Yeah, I do.
.....................................................

Funny, for a thread called 'A boring place' this is the most active thread!

GfS

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Musket
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 11:12 AM

So... Screaming bigot at a bigot is being a bigot?

You live and learn.

Bobad. Screaming bigot at someone who opposes their views is not something I have experienced on Mudcat. Pray tell, and I shall point and laugh at them.



Once and once only. Anybody can have a view but put a view forward that downgrades the status of sections of society for no reason other than you don't understand them, or your interpretation of an imaginary friend feeds your prejudice, same thing....

That's not a view. That's limiting the legitimacy of people's' fundamental right to a private life of their own choosing. I think you will find the convention on human rights that civilised countries sign up to covers it adequately.

You know, the more I read here, the more I wonder how many people actually understand the hurt people feel when fools call them perverts or tell people there are studies to prove they find people for sex not love.

I for one don't understand why people defend bitter twisted hatred filled bigots, but there you go.

My conscious is clear, but there again I don't have a mythical self justification instrument to thank.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 11:17 AM

Staying out of this in the main, esp as Jim appears to have gone before I could ask him for his take on Aayan Hirsi Ali.

But moved by

....Suppressing speech is completely appalling to us in America....
Joe Offer 0249 am

to ask Joe, simply as matters of fact, how [not all that] long it has been since Senator McCarthy's Congressional hearings? And which country, precisely, is Alabama in, whose Baptist community appears occasionally SFAICS to provoke accusations of a certain degree of intolerance?

~M~

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Amos
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 11:23 AM

GfS:

BOSHG on your last comment.

I think we would all do well to try and sieve out bitterness from our confections before we post them. Who wants to suck on bitter piss, when there's sweeter kinds to be had?

There are an infinite number of ways to say any thought, and those ways which include heaping cups of bile are simply less likely to be understood, That should be obvious, no? Why not choose a style of communication that will actually communicate?

Secondly, communicating effectively against bigotry and racism is a fine, noble thing to do. But pounding tin pans because you have to be right about the issue is just adding to the cacophony. If you are that obsessed with being right for its own sake, and making others as wrong as possible, seek peace through meditation or professional help.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 12:04 PM

Musket the men you are railing at have lived through a time when the views that you find repugnant was actually the law of the land, a time when wearing a wristwatch; sitting with your legs crossed or wearing a wristwatch in public, or wearing suede shoes was regarded by the majority as borderline effeminate.

as a northerner - you understand this - don't pretend you don't. so you know how they came to hold these views - so stop being so bloody judgemental. some people reject their parents values - some people don't get the breaks and they don't.

now behave yourself! nice manners please!

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 12:16 PM

Senator joe McCarthy, yes Michael very good point.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 01:17 PM

Musket, has anyone here really ever called anyone else a pervert?
If they ever have I have missed it, but it seems to be the main plank in your case to be allowed to shout "bigot" in return.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 01:29 PM

As an old lady from the UK, I do rather take exception to remarks which tar all British people here with the same brush. Not all posters from Great Britain on this site are as you describe, Joe. I'm actually very surprised at this revelation of your views about us. I'd always admired and appreciated your standpoint on many matters. This seems to me to be an 'ism' (see another thread)   Sad.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 01:35 PM

Al, don't be so bloody patronising. :0)

I've been a Commie most of my life....my family were conservative...I think long and hard before I write my posts, I make sure what I say is accurate.
Its nothing to do with the culture of the past, but my views on what sort of society we are heading for....1984 is with us now, only it's not totalitarianism, its something much more subtle and insidious.

The media rules our lives, I watch the crocodile tears, the false joy, the celebrity lifestyle and I despair. we are losing our grip on reality and what matters in life.
Any inconsequential nonsense is regarded as a big deal a tiny fraction, of a tiny fraction of the populace, are likely to take up homosexual "marriage" yet the huge majority of ordinary married folks feel the institution has become a joke....soon marriage will be a thing of the past.
What happens when heteros demand their right to civil union? Or should civil union be scrapped when homosexual "marriage is brought
forward?

What is the purpose of civil union when "marriage" is available?


I saying all that, I know your heart is in the right place, you're one of the all time good guys in my book.....and don't worry I wont jump in the loch.....thanks for the laugh :0)

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: MartinRyan
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 01:40 PM

zzzzzzzzzzzzz...........

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 01:41 PM

HA!

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Musket
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 01:54 PM

Aye Al, and the people born after the war in Germany accepted and integrated the old school thoughts of their previous generation.

Keith. Look up a few posts in this thread over the last 24 hours. The worm called gay marriage perverted. There. Yes. Just there. Don't get sanctimonious though. You said that lots of people don't agree with lawful marriage and seem to think their numbers legitimise their bigotry.

Yes, I do know about old school Al. I once went on a pub trip to the races and afterwards at Batley Variety Club. Know what? After 10 mins of Bernard Manning, despite being enjoyably pissed, I and a few others walked out and went to a nearby pub and met our coach later. I was 24 years old and a miner, so not exactly right on sandal wearing, but I can't be a bully. I can't laugh at hate either. His opening line? Why do pakis smell? So respectable blind people can hate them too. His next joke was about "arse bandits." I don't recall the mirth and humourous wit itself.

Actually, I can be a bully.

With fucking great knobs on.

Accepting that some people lack the intelligence to see how unacceptable their behaviour is all well and good. But encouraging them whilst inwardly wincing? A bit hypocritical if you ask me.

When I chaired an NHS Trust, we had a complaint from a patient who didn't want to be touched by a black nurse. His solicitor suggested and NHS Litigation a Authority agreed that we should apologise for the outburst from a particular black nurse when he asked her to find a colleague to care for him. I refused to let the trust apologise, and can gladly say that his legal costs were over £3,000.00 and ours? Zero.

Not enough to say you don't agree with bigotry. Some of us get out of our armchairs and face the bastards.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 02:22 PM

OK, Ake - So let me see if I have this right.

You do believe that gay people are capable of love
You do not believe that all they want is sex
You no longer believe that they should be forced to register
You no longer believe that testing should be compulsory
You do not really think that homosexuality is a perversion

In other words, you now think that gay people are just the same as you or I.

Hurrah! Mudcat has dome some good after all :-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 02:28 PM

So no-one has called a gay person a pervert then.
Why do you keep saying it?

The noun pervert is now quite distinct from the verb pervert and from perverse and perverted despite having the same root.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 02:41 PM

Keith. What are people that practice perversions called? If homosexuality is a perversion then those who practice it must be ... (Clue. 8 Letters, starts with a P). Besides it is now academic. Ake says he is agnostic on whether homosexuality is a perversion or not.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Musket
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 02:46 PM

Your root seems stuck in the soil too Keith.

I thought you'd logic chop with his careful use of the word.

Only I expected you to do it in a slightly more clever way.

Not the first time you disappoint.



I don't think Al was being patronising, worm. I read it as saying old fools are to be humoured and then ignored.

Why would marriage be a thing of the past just because gay people are at last recognised as equal stakeholders by the law as well as by respectable people?   I recall reading of a Mississippi governor complaining that marriage was devalued when slaves no longer had to jump over the broomstick.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 03:09 PM

If you pervert the course of justice, or are responsible for a perversion of justice, are you a pervert?
No.
The words have grown apart.

The hymn has it, "Perverse and foolish oft I strayed."
Are the whole congregation describing themselves as perverts?
No.

I do not think it helpful or appropriate to refer to homosexuality as a perversion, and it is regrettable that Akenaton does.
Why not just refer to that?
Why go a step further and pretend he has also called gay people perverts when it is just not true?

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 03:14 PM

I meant to say,
"I do not think it helpful or appropriate to refer to homosexuality as a perversion, and it is regrettable that Akenaton does, but it is etymologically correct."

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 03:23 PM

Repeat after me:

He said . . .
No, I didn't say . . .
Yes, you bloody well did say . . .
Idiot . . .
Don't call me an idiot you moron . . .

Now cut and paste some old quotes from whomever.

See, he said . . .
No, I didn't say . . .
Yes, you bloody well did say . . .
Idiot . . .
Don't call me an idiot you moron . . .

Just out of idle musing, how much of that shite would you read?

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 03:52 PM

It's regrettable that the chippy is shut when I pop round for fish and chips.

It's regrettable that Sheffield Wednesday used to have a chairman who tried wrecking the club.

It isn't regrettable that some people look down on others. It's wrong.

Your logic chopping around the word and inference of pervert is regrettable though.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 04:01 PM

Keith - Last sentence of my last post

Besides it is now academic. Ake says he is agnostic on whether homosexuality is a perversion or not.

Why keep going on about it?

D.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 04:39 PM

Amos: "BOSHG on your last comment."

BOSHG?? ...ummm ...Barrack Oblabbo Spewing 'Holy Gibberish????

My last post was, "From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 11:04 AM

'Guest'...Yeah, I do.
.....................................................

Funny, for a thread called 'A boring place' this is the most active thread!

GfS

...........So I give up..what is BOSHG?...and how does that apply...(yikes, I might be afraid to ask)...

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 05:09 PM

Thread #154278   Message #3619782
Posted By: GUEST,Eliza
17-Apr-14 - 01:29 PM
Thread Name: A boring place
Subject: RE: A boring place


As an old lady from the UK, I do rather take exception to remarks which tar all British people here with the same brush. Not all posters from Great Britain on this site are as you describe, Joe. I'm actually very surprised at this revelation of your views about us. I'd always admired and appreciated your standpoint on many matters. This seems to me to be an 'ism' (see another thread)   Sad.

Allow me clarify, Megan and Eliza. For the most part, the voices from the British Isles who have demanded that Mudcat silence other posters, are male voices. The campaign against Lizzie Cornish went on for years, and I think there were a few women in the outraged mob that opposed her - but it was mostly men; and it is men who now demand the silencing of Akenaton and Keith A. of Hertford. But even then, don't you think that Europeans do have a different view about allowing people to say things? In the U.S., free speech is sacred - that does not seem to be the case in Europe.

I see people here reporting (or threatening to report) Mudcat to some governmental authority for allowing what they term "illegal speech." And what they describe as illegally bigoted, really seems quite mild to me. Now, I admit the US may go too far in protecting free speech by the Ku Klux Klan and neo-Nazis and that "godhatesfags" Westboro Baptist Church, but I think I'd rather err on the side of freedom of speech [note: I am totally opposed to civilian carrying of firearms for any purpose other than hunting, although Big Mick would disagree with me]. Some people brought up Joe McCarthy as if his 1954 hearings were a recent phenomenon. I do think McCarthy may be a major reason why Americans so strongly protect freedom of speech - they don't want to see McCarthy's suppression happen ever again. Before McCarthy, suppression of speech was fairly common in the U.S. - remember the Scopes trial?

Whether the US advocacy of free speech is right or wrong, it's certainly different from the European view. And in the US, honoring demands that Akenaton and Keith be silenced, would be unthinkable.

MtheGM above said something about Alabama and Baptists, and I couldn't understand what he was trying to say. Whatever the case, I don't think you'll find much support for Alabama Baptists among U.S. Mudcatters. [Maybe MtheGM was referring to the 40-member Westboro Baptist Church in Kansas?] And you'll really have to scour the U.S. hard to find one person willing to support Joe McCarthy. And I can't quite figure out what Alabama and Baptists and Joe McCarthy have to do with Akenaton and Keith.

So, in short, the demands to silence Akenaton and Keith and some others, appear to us Americans to be quite ridiculous. Maybe we're wrong, but that's how we see it. Most of us disagree with them - but we also disagree with the demands that they be silenced.

-Joe-

P.S. If I have an incorrect understanding of the European view of freedom/suppression of speech, especially as it is understood by males in the British Isles, please correct me by giving me accurate information. And don't blame me for Joe McCarthy and Alabama Baptists in the process.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Leadbelly
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 05:18 PM

Guest from Sanity,

after all, I'm getting proud about initiating this boring place.

Obviously, there's some some life in old bones. Wasn't my Intention but it's ok.

Funny.

I think R'n'R can't be better than this discussion.

Please go on, friends!!!!

Or come back to the original purpose of this thread.

It's up to you. Even if I would I can't change it.

Happy Eastern!

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 05:20 PM

I wondered also, Amos: couldn't find BOSHG on Google, nor yet on the indispensable "Webopedia Text Messaging and Online Chat Abbreviations" site which I keep as a permanent desktop file. Pray elucidate.

~M~

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 05:28 PM

Kudos, Leadbelly!! Glad you started it...it seems like a place where everyone is trying to finish up bitching about things they never resolved, for one reason or another!!

Hey, if the Europeans want to fight about something, check out the Ukraine!

GfS

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 05:31 PM

I said above - The mentality of the British Isles: suppress anything that isn't acceptable, and it will go away and life will be wonderful.


Now, the mentality here in California is that if something is wrong, put up a sign telling people "Thank you for not doing so-and-so," and the problem will be resolved.

As for me, I get annoyed by all the friggin' stupid signs - but people keep posting them.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 05:41 PM

Come now,Joe: I agree with much you say; and have, as you will know, frequently defended those under attack, and resisted attempts by some to silence them and shout them down ···

··· but I do find something faintly comic in you apparent belief & asseveration that the ancient concept of "Freedom of Speech", which goes back to Ancient Athens at least [despite Socrates! — there are always some parameters set], and has been a principle of our commonweal since time immemorial, is some sort of American monopoly, invented by the Good Ole USofA some time between the McCarthy hearings and the present (& if the latter not your point, then what was your purpose in so triumphantly trumpeting the actual date of McCarthy's activities — if not contradictory of your odd assertions, then what the hell difference how long ago they occurred?). You're not really, seriously, putting such a postulate forward, are you? I really wouldn't want to have to find myself echoing Eliza's all too cogently expressed amazement at you!

~Michael~

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 05:54 PM

Joe Offer: "I said above - The mentality of the British Isles: suppress anything that isn't acceptable, and it will go away and life will be wonderful."

Yes, you can tell that by 'Step Dancing'...true story...the feet are going a mile a minute(or kilometer, if you prefer) but the head and shoulders remain rigid. This is indicative of a repressive society.

GfS

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 05:55 PM

Look out, 'BS: The Mother of all BS threads' here we come!!

GfS

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 06:17 PM

MtheGM, the concept of "illegal speech" does not exist in the United States. Apparently, it does exist in the British Isles. Some Mudcatter told me he reported Mudcat to some authority for permitting "illegal speech."

So, yeah, there are differences.

So, is it or is it not illegal to say certain things in the British Isles?

-Joe-

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 06:56 PM

M~

When I took Political science in, Canada in 1975. I was taught that the *right* of free speech was unique to the US as compared to the British Commonwealth and most if not all other places. Is there a constitutional document that guarantees free speech for all citizens in the UK? If there is. I would be interested.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 07:00 PM

I repeat. This is not about wanting to "silence" anyone for their bigoted views. This is about certain people on this board, mostly of good intent one presumes, attempting to silence people who want to expose and ridicule bigots. That is the tenor of all these recent discussions. It's all very well saying in very, very mild language that you like person A but you disagree with their views, but that is simply a massive copout when it comes to the likes of Ake, Keith, pete, bobad and goofus, who poison this board.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Jeri
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 07:08 PM

I have friends with British origins, and I frequently bitch, whine, piss, and moan to them about British assholes (arseholes) on Mudcat, but for the record, let me state that this is like any other stereotype. There are maybe 5 or 6 persistent British fuckwits. I think there are at least as many US ones, but it's a different brand of fuckwittery. While there are loads of current and former British people here who post sane messages and show respect for people, and a refreshing lack of obsession with particular subjects, the 5 or 6 British fuckwits post more messages in a day than most sane ones post in a month... maybe sometimes a year. They're the ones who get noticed, and the nice ones don't. I know very well I'm talking about a very small minority.

Dave, we get it. You have different beliefs about what "free speech" means.
What you don't get is that Mudcat is physically located in the US, created and owned by a citizen of the US who was raised in the US, and that's why "free speech" at Mudcat is not just the nice words, or the ones you approve of, and we aren't going to change things because a few people think the world should work the way THEY want it to.

...and what happens when you shout "bigot" at someone is that it gets louder for a while.
...and anybody who thinks going after people they think are bigots on a music website is any better than sitting in an armchair is really clueless about the fact you can screw around on the internet while ass-rooted in an armchair.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 07:08 PM

When it comes to picking people to expose and ridicule, I'll pick bullies over bigots any or day.

And Steve if you are coming here to fill your need to ridicule people. I really would rather you fuck off and stick that gob iron where the sun has never shone.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 07:12 PM

Wikiipedia has a reasonable summation, Joe.

Hate speech laws in the United Kingdom

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 07:31 PM

Thanks, Ed. It sure seems complicated. It seems that according to UK law, a lot of the antireligious stuff posted at Mudcat would be subject to prosecution. Maybe some of the anti-gay stuff, but I dunno.

Whatever the case, I guess it makes me glad Mudcat is in the U.S., where we don't have to split those hairs.

Think I'd better go back to talking about locomotives....

-Joe-

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: GUEST,Jack Sprocket
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 08:34 PM

About two thirds of the stuff I post gets deleted, and has been for several years. Probably by these All-American defenders of diversity.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: bobad
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 09:00 PM

"the likes of Ake, Keith, pete, bobad and goofus, who poison this board."

Your lack of self awareness as to who poisons this board is laughable but then that is the hallmark of a narcissist, isn't it.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 09:32 PM

You need to look up "narcissist" in a dictionary, dear boy (or girl - how would I know...) Trouble with you, Bobad, is that you're the master/mistress of the "witty" one-liner. Usually a bloody right-wing, unthinking, bigoted one-liner. I'm struggling to remember a time when you ever posted an argument about anything. You are the archetypal (and troglodytical) example of the unreconstructed bigot. I hope you're happy in your own skin.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 09:37 PM

And Steve if you are coming here to fill your need to ridicule people. I really would rather you fuck off and stick that gob iron where the sun has never shone.

While you're at it, you shallow and useless git, would you care to remind us again of those forum rules you were so keen on not so long ago? You really are an embarrassment, Wacko - and so easy to ridicule!

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 10:26 PM

Steve Pshaw: "A but you disagree with their views, but that is simply a massive copout when it comes to the likes of Ake, Keith, pete, bobad and goofus, who poison this board."

Hmmm.....aren't you the harmonica player?...You know....you must be...you blowhard and suck at the same time....and still can't carry a melody!

GfS

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: bobad
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 11:00 PM

The Arrogant/Overt Narcissist

Feelings of superiority and uniqueness ✓

Boastful, pretentious, self-centered, and self-referential behavior ✓

As a result of the need to be 'best' or 'first,' the person with Narcissistic Personality Disorde behaves in, a condescending and [devaluing] manner toward others . . . often combined with arrogance and haughtiness and some may appear snobbish, supercilious, or patronizing ✓

When a person with the arrogant variety of Narcissistic Personality Disorder loses, is criticized, or is contradicted, he or she experiences strong negative reactions, which they may then display to others ✓

Overt responses an arrogant narcissist might display range from dismissal and minimizing of the criticism, to verbal counterattacks, or revengeful plans or actions ✓

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 11:45 PM

'MtheGM, the concept of "illegal speech" does not exist in the United States'
,..,
So you don't have any laws of libel or slander or defamation of character then, Joe?

Hmmmm!

~M~

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 11:57 PM

... and if this concept of yours is a Constitutional guarantee, then why didn't it work for so many over the years?: like Monkey Trials; McCarthy; KKK; Alabama Baptists;{usw to ∞∞∞]

You are arguing from the odd premise that if a certain phenomenon has not being verbalised [or its contra has], then its actual manifestation can't exist. I expect there is some philosophical or rhetorical name for such a non seq, but I can't all it to mind at the moment. Any philosophers or sociologists out there can help?

~M~

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 12:52 AM

Regret I feel the need, for far from the first time on this forum, to assert that,

with history from Salem to Southern lynchings up to well into the second half of C20, via slavery, Wounded Knee, Sand Creek, KKK, The Birth Of A Nation, Scopes Monkey Trials +++++∞∞∞∞∞!,

it ill becomes any US-er to strike attitudes about their [apparently to them self-evident] superiority in all legal and ethical particulars to the UK.

As I am not the first to observe, the Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave was established on a firm base of slavery and genocide.

Just asking to get shot down!····


···· B-O-O-O-O-M-M-M

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 01:14 AM

Yeah, well in 1492 Columbus discovered America from the Indians!...It was all Spain's fault!

GfS

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Joe Offer
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 02:29 AM

So, Mike, what are you arguing about? I agree that in earlier days, the First Amendment Freedom of Speech didn't mean much in the U.S. But since the extremes of the McCarthy era and with a number of Supreme Court decisions, the attitude in the U.S. toward free speech has changed, to the point where the thinking on free speech in the U.S. is quite different from what it is in Europe. There are civil laws against libel and slander, but it is far more difficult to prove libel and slander in a court of law in the U.S. Libel and slander are not a criminal offense under federal law or the laws of 30 states.

I did NOT say that the U.S. attitude about free speech is better than it is in Europe. I said it's different.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 03:37 AM

So if I posted a letter in your local newspaper that all Catholics promote buggering altar boys and it is the duty of every catholic to defend their priests whilst encouraging their sexual frustration release, you'd read it and say I don't agree with it but if that's what you assess as the situation from the recent exposure, that's your view.

I wonder how many court cases in California the newspaper proprietor and I will have to put up with?

We defend freedom in The UK. We are signatures to human rights legislation. We defend the right to be free from oppression.

We have laws to enable it. Why ? Keith said it himself. Gay marriage is opposed by many people, so if decency doesn't work, the law has to step in.

A bit like in California in reality. Except we don't let them carry guns and we don't build execution chambers to address freedoms going too far.

Yes. I reported this website via my ISP for failing to moderate incitement to hatred. It means nothing as it is a foreign website and under conventions must carry same legal requirements both countries to require the owner to do something about it.

If and only if a bored person decides to look at the links I provided, they could apply to have The US federal officials require the web hosts to provide IP for those propagating incitement to hate.

This isn't saying they don't agree with something or other. This is saying that something they consider perverted and against natural law is responsible for an epidemic health issue. (Civil cases can also be brought under The Health Act 1999 but don't hold your breath. It was set up to prevent false claims using bad science but was used when a doctor falsified MMR data and published it, leading to fear in the population.

There was a successful prosecution the other week of someone who said on a website that a certain pub was no longer serving soldiers in case they upset Muslims.

Free speech is, by definition in US legal precedence as well as here, the responsible use of free speech. That cases aren't brought against hate in The USA tends to be because it usually reflects mainstream republican politics.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Jeri
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 06:38 AM

If you wanted to post it on the internet, you could.
This is not a newspaper. I doubt any would think their readers would be interested, unless their readership liked having their chains pulled.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Musket
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 07:02 AM

US, UK and most other countries. It is published media that the owners are accountable for. Any disclaimer to the contrary is subject to whether a court decided it took appropriate steps to moderate comments appearing on its pages that do not reflect the views or position of the owner.

In this case, The Mudcat Café Music Foundation Inc.

Jeri, I'm not being awkward here, I'm asking for common decency in published print. There is no difference whatsoever between a newspaper and a forum. Both countries have legal precedence for that. In fact, they form part of the Abu Hamzir case being tried in a federal court now, and the terms of the extradition from The UK in order for that to happen.

Why am I being castigated for refusing to let bigoted hate go unchallenged? What is it telling us?

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 07:23 AM

Yes, you can tell that by 'Step Dancing'...true story...the feet are going a mile a minute(or kilometer, if you prefer) but the head and shoulders remain rigid. This is indicative of a repressive society

Irish step dancing Showing the type of dancing "indicative of a repressive society"

English step dancing showing the type of dancing that, seemingly, indicates lack of repression :-)

Well done, GfS for showing a singular lack of understanding of the British Isles and for proving once more that we are divided by a common language. I can only surmise that sanity has a different meaning over there!

DtG

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 07:31 AM

"I fully support Jim. It seems to me that the moderators here only ever tell us off for having a shout at people. They never seem to address the real poison on the forum."
Couldn't agree more
Just thought I'd take this opportunity to state that I have made a formal complaint over the behaviour of at least one of those who I believe have poisoned this forum.
My resignation stays in place pending the outcome of that complaint.
Apologies to all concerned
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 07:53 AM

Sorry about the double posting again - would some kind forum fairy do the honours please
Happy Easter all
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 07:58 AM

Musket, there is no "bigoted hate" that I have ever seen on here.
Like those figures you often refer to, only you can see it.

Dave, I referred to the "pervert" false allegation because Musket made it again.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 08:00 AM

I can't believe you would do that Musket. report Joe to this isp -whoever they are.

he's one of the good guys. what are you thinking of?

Geriatric comics, hermits in the wilds of Hibernia - you remind me of the eejit who reported a pensioner for crocheting golliwogs.

another difference is that Dr King took on the rich and powerful.

there are real bastards out there - most of whom you seem to have rubbed shoulders and done business with. pity this moral outrage didn't surface and erupt on those visits to Downing Street.

we would have heard if it had - it would have been in private eye or the papers.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: bobad
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 08:13 AM

The "reporters" are making a laughing stock of themselves - even more than they already have been. Oops, I had better be careful or I may be reported for saying that.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Musket
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 08:27 AM

I haven't reported Joe. I reported incitement to hatred on a website. I don't think Joe said anything that vilifies people just for existing. Ok, an organisation he is a member of does, but society ain't as perfect as it easily could be if it just tried.

I reported to my ISP (Sky) that lack of moderation has allowed I what I allege as incitement to hatred to be published unmoderated. Stonewall, every local authority and The Home Office have details on how to do it, and encourage it as it is responsibility of your ISP to deal with it.

Not sure what you are saying Al. I, same as thousands of others in the past go to Downing St for receptions rather than to record an episode of Moral Maze.

I haven't started a moral outrage. I just cannot and will not accept that hate is tolerated by people who can walk and chew gum at the same time and the disgusting repeating of lies by supporters of homophobia like Keith above saying there is no bigoted hate on this website.

How can Mudcat debate when moderation precludes sections of society from engaging?

If he keeps saying it, people might believe it. Dr Goebbels tried that approach too.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 08:46 AM

Musket, Ake is a changed man! Did you not see my post earlier? He no longer believes that homosexuality is a perversion; He does not believe in forced registration and testing; He accepts that homosexuals are capable of love and now only has a gripe with the term marriage. I can live with that. All in all, I think your work is done :-) The power of Mudcat eh?

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Ed T
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 08:47 AM

ln, 1492 Columbus discovered America from the Indians!...It was all Spain's fault!


"While this statement "may or may not" be factually correct, Spain has room to explain its historic exploits and treatmenf of other humans in "the Americas". However, it does not leave other nations and some religions out for simiar consideration.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 08:58 AM

"The "reporters" are making a laughing stock of themselves"
We are all making "laughing stocks of ourselves one way or another (seem to remember you posted reams of 'information' lifted directly from 'Muslim Watch' and 'White Supremacy' - both extreme racist websites, and expected to be taken seriously)
Instead of shouting at each other, this section of the site should be self-regulatory instead of frustratedly hurling abuse at one another, then shuffling off in a huff.
I don't accept that everybody has a right to make swingeing generalised condemnations about other's gender, race or culture - British laws says they haven't (really don't know about the U.S. - a foreign country as far as I'm concerned).
"How can Mudcat debate when moderation precludes sections of society from engaging?"
I do believet a music-based site such as this one would benefit greatly from an input of information and experience from some of the rich musical traditions to be found in some Muslim countries; Mudcat is the last place I'd expect to encounter such people as things stand at present.
I know how it feels to have Irish roots and have to face some of the garbage being thrown around here recently.
Observers on this site have a pretty shitty job in keeping us in order sometime when we behave like a bunch of unpleasant schoolchildren - me as much as anybody.
It's about time we all took a close look at ourselves and decided whether we were people we would like to take home and meet our families.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 09:05 AM

The anti-faith ranting now prevalent on here would indeed discourage Muslims and others from feeling welcome here.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: bobad
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 09:06 AM

And that coming from someone who equates Israel to Nazi Germany - maybe I should report that to the authorities.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 09:09 AM

disgusting repeating of lies by supporters of homophobia like Keith above saying there is no bigoted hate on this website.

I would have to retract my statement if you produced some convincing examples, or even just one.
Why don't you do that instead of just saying "lies" Musket?
Why don't you?

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 09:11 AM

"And that coming from someone who equates Israel to Nazi Germany"
That came from a statement by the head of the Israeli Security Services and was quoted in the film 'The Gatekeepers' last year
Maybe you should report him to the authorities too, while you're at it?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Ed T
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 09:20 AM

"Observers on this site have a pretty shitty job in keeping us in order sometime when we behave like a bunch of unpleasant schoolchildren - me as much as anybody."

I would support increased and more balanced (and uniform) moderation, to make BS more respectful discussion environment for "all" posters- not just a few. For example,while if may be legal in some natikns to use certain terms- that clearly offends many (or even some), and, while they may be appropriate in some situations, if their use is disrespectful, and hinders respectful discussion (and clearly causes discord) what purpose is served to allow it to continue? Clearly a better approach could be worked out and tested (one that also gave clear directions to posters and moderators, who seemed as puzzled with interpreting and applying rules as others).

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Amos
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 09:51 AM

My apologies for confusing people with a typo. BOSHG should have been BOSEG--a big ole shit-eating grin.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Musket
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 10:00 AM

Nothing to do with the law. Reporting incitement to hatred is a public service. I shudder to think that someone could read this by accident.

I still have problems with the concept of the ridicule thrown at me for not accepting posts that use health statistics to give reasons to vilify people merely for having the nerve to exist.

I have problems with posts that clearly lie about sections of society in order to make them appear second class citizens. People genuinely suggesting they are rounded up and forcibly made to undergo tests three times a year. He fucking means it....

I have problems with those who say the posts don't exist when dozens of people have commented on them.

I don't have problems with those who twist my words though. After all, winning debate isn't always last man standing.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 10:54 AM

"The anti-faith ranting now prevalen"
There is no "anti-faith ranting - here"
Criticising the behaviour of the various churches isn't "anti faith" and it is not only valid, it is necessary, particularly in the light of what is happening in the name of any god you care to name.
"Antisemitism" has been the favourite get-out-of-jail-free for those defending what is happening in Israel today - it is in itself Antisemitic to attribute some of the things happening there as being the actions of Jews rather than those of the Israeli regime.
Like patriotism, it is "the last refuge of a scoundrel".
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 11:14 AM

Ridiculing people for their "imaginary friend" and beliefs IS anti-faith ranting and would make people of any faith feel unwelcome.

Musket, the things you claim are not true.
That is why can can not produce a single example of it.
Can you?

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 11:17 AM

Al you voiced my thoughts when I first heard that he had "reported" Mudcat, It says a lot for Joe that the creature is still on the forum.

there is only one kind of hatred here, and I think you know where it resides.....

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Musket
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 12:13 PM

Yes. I hate the bigotry of Akenaton. How you can call people perverted for just existing is completely and utterly beyond me.

And beyond every decent person there is. There is a reason BNP only get votes from thugs and gullible bigots, never respectable citizens. There is a reason why the French National Front has stated that Keith's party UKIP have similar ideas to their own.

Keith. I have never called Christians God botherers either. I call God botherers God botherers. Keep your club values in your club. It's when people hide their less nice aspects behind the veil of "Jesus tells me to oppose gay marriage" that gets my goat. It's when children are taught to feel superior to others. It's when God says women are inferior to men.

I don't have to ridicule God botherers, they do it themselves.

Christians are another matter. I see no difference between a Christian and someone who shops in another supermarket to someone else. You know why? Because they don't fortify their sanctimony and less than nice views by saying it's the Tesco way.

You know, gay equality has never been too much on my radar, but some of the disgusting comment on here just got my goat. I suppose I must be feeling slightly concerned back in the real world. I sang Curtains of Old Joe's House and Bruce's Song at the same gig the other night.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: GUEST,Triplane
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 12:21 PM

I read thro this thread in the hope of getting tips about joinery or at least the boring of holes. I have not been disaspointed.
Sadism and masochism are not dead. I had the feeling necrophilic bestiality was dead, but then if I am wrong Im sure someone will correct me. "They dont flog dead horses do they" :]

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 12:49 PM

Muskie
The longer you feed the troll, the longer he will hang around.
Triplane is right - it gets boring, especially to those not involved
Let them slither back under the bridge.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 01:15 PM

well lets put it this way...

there was nothing in the press about an outraged ex miner grabbing the British premier by the lapels, kicking him or her- and yelling why do you keep starting bloody wars! you insignificant piece of bum fluff! you wouldn't do it, were you own kids fighting in these bloody shitholes for god knows what!

and yet Ake the hermit in a kilt living in the far flung arseholes of nowhere - no one to talk to - except us and the shortbread tin outside his window - he gets it with both barrels and you call him a worm.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 01:17 PM

Musket, you again link me to UKIP, such is your desperation to discredit me without being able to challenge anything I actually say.
As you well know, because I keep telling you, I am not even a supporter.

Keith. I have never called Christians God botherers either.
Errr, no-one said you did.
I call God botherers God botherers.
I think that calling people of faith "God-botherers" will make people of all religions feel unwelcome here.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 01:23 PM

Deja vu all over again.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 01:40 PM

Musket, you might have said something to Prince Charles when you received your "honour" from him.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Musket
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 01:43 PM

You are right Al. As ever in fact.

The nearest I got was to tell the PM that one of his predecessors called me the enemy within, yet here I am quaffing the rather good No.10 wines.

Mind you, I did decline a different invite from Bliar once it seemed clear that his loyalty to a cowboy US president overtook his duty of care for UK citizens. I'm not special, clever or anything else, but the only way to change things is from the inside. If I ever get sad enough to think how good I am though, I can say I tried and thanks to a judicial review, did my little bit to make health and social care that bit more accountable to those for whom it is provided.

As you ask.

I haven't done anything about gay issues though.

Quite ironic that in a weeks time I am in that far flung area myself for a few days, we are staying two nights with friends near Inveraray. I suppose one of the reasons I laughed so hard at the worm when it said there aren't that many in his patch is that next year, our friends plan to marry. We were at their civil partnership a few years ago. Taking the worm's advice, I'd best lock my bedroom door then. Sick puppy.



Keith. Perhaps people of real faith will see your weird "it's Christians always being persecuted by "Islamists" and it might put a few off too eh?

I haven't linked you to UKIP. You did it yourself. I merely read your post. If you have changed your mind, then great. I hope you find another party that caters for your rather particular needs.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 01:51 PM

Musket, I have never said anything like, "it's Christians always being persecuted by "Islamists"
You make up shit because you can not challenge anything I actually say.

Here is you on your "honour,"
" I am fucking important. Important enough to know what I am talking about. Prince Charles reckoned my gong made me important and he is more famous than you, thank you. "

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 01:52 PM

I don't even LIKE shortbread Al! :0(

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 02:22 PM

"If I ever get sad enough to think how good I am though, I can say I tried and thanks to a judicial review, did my little bit to make health and social care that bit more accountable to those for whom it is provided." Ian OBE.

Meanwhile, in the real world MSM sexual infection rates keep rising.
The procedures in operation are obviously useless in that demographic.

Apologise and hand back your "gong" boy.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Ed T
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 02:32 PM

The "Law of Conservation of Argument" clearly states that, regardless of the OP topic, the argument will live on, trancending threads, involvjng a few, versus the masses. No knowledge will be gained, nor any position eroded, "stand firm through logic and time, for preservation of the argument" remains your sole calling.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 02:41 PM

I thought I'd put this in here, to relive the boredom, for those who are bored to death of this thread...

'Goodnight Mr. Tom'

Hope you all enjoy it.


And yes, Mudcat has become boring, mainly because some of the main posters to it have either now died, or had enough of being picked on by jealous, nasty individuals who seek to dominate whichever boards they frequent, regarding those places as wholly 'theirs'.

Have fun watching the film, it's one I love very much.

Thanks
Lizzie

PS: I miss Peace and Ron Bankley and Dan....

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Joe Offer
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 02:48 PM

Musket sez (18 Apr 14 - 03:37 AM): So if I posted a letter in your local newspaper that all Catholics promote buggering altar boys and it is the duty of every catholic to defend their priests whilst encouraging their sexual frustration release, you'd read it and say I don't agree with it but if that's what you assess as the situation from the recent exposure, that's your view.

The example you give is a little extreme, Musket. Most probably, a U.S. newspaper publisher would quietly neglect to publish such a letter, and would remove it from the forum if posted on his Website. If he did publish it, the repercussions would take place in the marketplace, not in the courtroom. As I said, there currently are few legal controls on speech in the U.S. It's not the same as in Europe.

And comments like the ones you complain about here, are posted in U.S. newspaper letters to the editor on a frequent basis - especially in conservative areas like the place where I live. Nobody would think about filing a legal action against them. I look on it as an opportunity to publicly, rationally, and peacefully voice opposition to such thinking. And I try to use a quiet, rational tone instead of a combative one - I want to change minds and hearts, not defeat enemies. In a small community like mine, my approach has worked over time. I'm seen as a voice of wisdom in the community. The newspaper occasionally calls me and asks for a quote on an issue.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 04:05 PM

Joe, well said, the point of discussion is to convince someone else through reasoned points to change their point of view to some extent, it is not to insult, score points, or to push the other person into some perceived defeat.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 05:29 PM

Ahh!..Dave the Gnome FAILED AGAIN!!!

The CLOGFEST, (One of the links you posted)Where they gather for CLOGGING, is NOT the same as 'step dancing'!

"English clog dancing began in 19th century England during the Industrial Revolution.[5][6] It is thought to have developed in the Lancashire cotton mills where wooden-soled clogs were preferred to leather soles because the floors were kept wet to help keep the humidity high, important in cotton spinning.[7] Workers sitting at the weaving machines wore hard-soled shoes, which they would tap to the rhythms of the machines to keep their feet warm. At their breaks and lunches, they would have competitions, where they were judged on the best rhythm patterns. By the late 1800s they clog-danced[8] on proper stages at competitions. In these competitions, the judges would watch the routine and judge it according to footwork, precision, and technique.Clog dancers were a common sight at music halls throughout the 19th century and into the early 20th century. Dan Leno became the world champion clog dancer in the 1880s, although records show that competitive clog dancing was a frequent occurrence throughout the 19th century.[5]

Cecil Sharp frequently encountered step dancing, clog dancing and North West Morris dancing (a type of Morris often performed in clogs, but NOT THE SAME AS 'STEP DANCING) in his search for folk dances in England, but it was Maud Karpeles who was more effective in documenting some of these dance"

..and here's the link:
Check it out yourself

IRISH STEP DANCING is what I was referring to....I don't know what the hell you're talking about...but then, neither do you!

GfS

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 05:42 PM

Amos: "My apologies for confusing people with a typo. BOSHG should have been BOSEG--a big ole shit-eating grin."

OK..Got it!!

(Boy, did I have one ready for you.....but, alas, you're off the hook!!)

Regards Amos!

GfS

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 06:08 PM

back to the wigwam Lizzie - they'll be sending smoke signals behind your back. I know you're not paranoid, but that Old Nokomis is such a bitch,,,,,

as for you Ake - wash your hands thoroughly after shaking hands, put some raw fruit in your porridge and put toilet paper round the seat, and don't give blow jobs to strangers....and up there in the nether regions of wherever you are....I can virtually guarantee your safety from everyone -except the masked gay avenger who goes round spreading deadly infections to people who never shut up about them.....

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Janie
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 09:36 PM

Guest who posted the deja vu link. Perfect!

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 10:34 PM

Keith. Perhaps people of real faith will see your weird "it's Christians always being persecuted by "Islamists" and it might put a few off too eh?

It might if I ever said it.
Made up Musket shit.

I haven't linked you to UKIP. You did it yourself

More made up shit.
If you had any kind of case you would not need to lie all the time.

Joe, UK papers and sites could and do publish comments like those posted on here.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Amos
Date: 19 Apr 14 - 12:45 AM

I think it is wise, when your inflamed mind tells you to write invective against an individual, to immediately back off and recast your thinking so that you post about facts and ideas instead.

ALl the slandering of correspondents is what makes posts tedious and unlikeable.If you really want to arm-wrestle against individuals, do it over a pint or two face to face. Using the Cat to act venomous impulses is counter-productive, wasteful and unkind.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Big Mick
Date: 19 Apr 14 - 01:09 AM

To paraphrase: there are none so deaf as those who will not hear. There are none so ignorant as those who refuse to comprehend.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 19 Apr 14 - 01:46 AM

Seems I have an OBE now. If Mudcat represented reality I'd probably be King too.

If I had such a thing, worm I would have handed it back because it wouldn't be my property. (For the benefit of our cousins, OBE stands for other buggers efforts and is a medal that is given amongst other causes to senior civil servants.) Having never been either a civil servant nor rock star, mention of it as a slur is part of the make up of the worm aka Akenhateon.

Joe. No UK newspaper would or could publish a letter stating the allegations against sections of the community Akenhateon alleges. As ever, Keith is wallowing in his Little England fantasy again.

Newspapers do and can of course print views and opinions. Opinions tend to say that they don't want change or that gay marriage changes their perception of marriage or that promiscuity amongst men can provoke a higher risk of infection than between similar irresponsible behaviour between men and women. People can say that they don't understand gay feelings so have difficulty accepting the concept. People can say that they are what their experiences make them and they were born and raised at a time when being gay was legally second class, and sex between them was illegal.

But no media outlet could get away with what he says (and Keith defends) without being brought to account. Having written for The New England Journal of Medicine, I still have a copy of their style guide for editorial copy including defining opinion versus stating fact. I deduce from that the following. US courts are as willing and able as ours to question publication of porkies.



Oh Keith. I did say I was fucking important. No need to keep bringing it up. Perhaps you might bring up what I also said? I'm not important but I am fucking important.

There again, your obnoxious black and white waffle is based on face value. Hence I said it. I answered your question. Stupid questions get stupid answers. Doesn't mean you treat this website with contempt by thinking people are stupid enough to fall for out of context quotes.

Do you want me to dig out your post again where you refer to "we " with regard to UKIP? You love digging for my comments yet reckon you can't find any if your pet worm's inflammatory hatred? Go back to sleep.

zzzzzz

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 19 Apr 14 - 02:00 AM

By the way moderators.

That's twice Akenaton has tried to slur the person behind Musket and my fitness for purpose for my professional life. Despite never saying nor knowing what I do in the first place ! I have been called a healthcare manager, despite saying all along I am a retired CEO in manufacturing, voluntarily working as an advisor and academic in using improvement methods from industry in healthcare, having once been chairman of a health authority (we have lay people from outside healthcare to oversee public funds used by The NHS.) I been called a disgrace for having a medal I don't have for accepting it whilst sexual health infections are rising at a rate they aren't, and if they were, local government (councils) and their elected politicians are responsible for it now!

In the meantime, I have been very careful to aim my sights clearly at the words of what he preaches on this website. He has said in the past he works on building sites. I have no hesitation in saying I have no information to suggest he isn't well suited for his employment.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Apr 14 - 03:37 AM

Oh no you haven't!

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Apr 14 - 04:11 AM

I challenge you to produce one statement unfit for UK publication.
Very confident prediction, you can't.

By all means produce my UKIP quote.
You know well, because I have put it in front of you before, that it was a pasted quote from their website, and nothing to do with me.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Apr 14 - 04:23 AM

One of the major problems of this forum, which has earned some of the threads on it the rightful description of "boring" is that a tiny number of rottweilers have attached themselves to a number of subjects; Israel, Muslims, Homosexuality, Ireland.... have taken each one of them over and ascertained that they cannot be discussed reasonably and democratically.
Discussion always starts with a reasonable input into the topic; people disagreeing with one another, but exchanging their views calmly and reasonably.
Then in come the guard-dogs and attach their vice-like grip on the topic until, one by one, everybody else walks away.
I was stupid enough to believe that rottweilers could be reasoned with; I think Muskie has fallen into the same trap - they really can't.
For them, it is about "winning" - and they are prepared to use any trick in the book to take home the glittering prizes.
You always know who they are; they are the ones who talk about having "won" arguments, and it is usually their name that is the last on the thread.
You really are wasting your time Muskie - while they are allowed to operate the way you do they will continue to send these discussions into earthbound spirals and they will eventually destroy this section of Mudcat until it is no longer viable.
Anyway - you've already been told that you haven't been around long enough to hold an opinion - just as I have been told that I have no right to hold my opinion because I choose not to live in Britain - thake their word for it - they are "infallible" - they've told us that as well.
As somebody once said about politics; "don't vote, it only encourages them".
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Apr 14 - 04:27 AM

OH - Something I forgot - they usually qualify their position by disowning it and saying it was someone elses.
"and nothing to do with me."
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Apr 14 - 04:33 AM

I just point out accusations that are false.
Who would not defend themselves from such smears?

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Apr 14 - 04:36 AM

Two new lies!
"Anyway - you've already been told that you haven't been around long enough to hold an opinion - just as I have been told that I have no right to hold my opinion because I choose not to live in Britain"

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Apr 14 - 04:47 AM

Oh - something else I forgot.
They persistently pot things, then deny they have posted them
It seems that Mudcat has a poltergeist that consistenly posts in other people's names.
We really do need an exorcist
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Apr 14 - 05:17 AM

I am not going to argue with you again Jim, but I ask that when you accuse me of saying something, you produce the actual quote.

If you can support any of today's accusations with such a quote, I promise I will leave Mudcat.
Really leave.
Not just do an impression of someone stuck in a revolving door!

I'm gone--Here I am!--I'm gone--Here I am!--I'm gone-Here I am!-

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 19 Apr 14 - 05:53 AM

"back to the wigwam Lizzie - they'll be sending smoke signals behind your back."


That is called total disrespect, Al, not just towards me, but to the Native Americans themselves, who are fighting so hard to bring respect to their culture and their People back.

You once even made a sexual comment about my standing beside them, can't recall exactly what it was now, but it was something to do with some 'fantasy' of mine...

That really upset me. I have endured the same kind of behaviour with Seth Lakeman, being told by posters in here that I 'fancied' him.

Geez, when will you misogynists wake up to the fact that actually, women DO have BRAINS and unlike many of the men who've crossed my path on the internet, we don't champion music, People, nor anything else because we're sexually aroused by it, as some of you might be!!!

Do NOT fecking patronize me with your sexist 'humour'..and do NOT insult the Native Americans by showing disrespect towards them. They've had centuries of it and you know what, they're sick to death of it!

These kinds of comments are why I rarely come here now, because I'm done with being upset, with having some mods (not Joe) remove my posts whilst they let the posts of some truly nasty individuals remain. I do not include you in the 'truly nasty' section, Al, but for Keriste's Sake, show some respect and stop patronizing me.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Apr 14 - 06:04 AM

I'm tired of quoting you and being called a liar
I'm tired of being told that you are nott resposible for your own statements because somebody else said them
I'm tired of being called anti-religious by someone who is a disgrace to Christianity.
I'm tired of being called an ant-Semite by Antitsemites who attribute the crimes of a terrorist state to "Jews"
I'm tired of bunch of extremists who take hold of subject after subject and strangle them to death with their extremism.
And I'm tired of being told that the opinions I hold are not valid because I don't live in Britain - or I am too old (take not Al) or I am "anti British or this that or the other - now that I am no longer a member, it would appear.
Your behaviour is destroying this forum and unless you are stopped you will have succeeded in silencing the voices of many people on it.
You've made promises before and walked away from them
I have no intention of entering another of your black holes - my position remains the same as it was yesterday.
Unless something is done about your totally irrational behaviour, I see no point in having anything to do with this forum - you are dragging it into your gutter.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Apr 14 - 06:16 AM

Oh - I forgot to add - before you said it
"More lies".
Just to save you the trouble
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Apr 14 - 06:17 AM

Ahh!..Dave the Gnome FAILED AGAIN!!!

Errrrrr, GfS, it isn't me trying to say that the British must be repressed because of the way the Irish dance. And I do know about clog stepping, being actually involved for a number of years. Clog stepping derives from step dancing. The clue is in the name. One of the greatest exponents, Sam Sherry, mentioned in the clip I linked, came from a Music Hall background where he, and his brothers, performed many types of dancing including soft shoe. I think if you try to psycho-analyse people based on how they dance you should at least know a bit about the dancing rather than just googling it.

DtG

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Apr 14 - 06:19 AM

"Do NOT fecking patronize me with your sexist 'humour'.."
Add "Ageist" to that for me will you Lizzie
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 19 Apr 14 - 06:21 AM

Musket: "Seems I have an OBE now. If Mudcat represented reality I'd probably be King too."

You must be Joe King!


Ed T: ""ln, 1492 Columbus discovered America from the Indians!...It was all Spain's fault!""
"While this statement "may or may not" be factually correct, Spain has room to explain its historic exploits and treatment of other humans in "the Americas". However, it does not leave other nations and some religions out for similar consideration."

True story...Did you know that on Columbus's 2nd voyage over, that all but 500 Cubans were slaughtered?....



Musket: So if I posted a letter in your local newspaper that all Catholics promote buggering altar boys and it is the duty of every catholic to defend their priests whilst encouraging their sexual frustration release, you'd read it and say I don't agree with it but if that's what you assess as the situation from the recent exposure, that's your view."

Did you know that when older men have sex with boys(same sex) that it IS a FORM of homosexuality??....If they do it with little girls, it's statutory rape?....and in either case, it is still pedophilia??



Jim Carroll: "One of the major problems of this forum, which has earned some of the threads on it the rightful description of "boring" is that a tiny number of rottweilers have attached themselves to a number of subjects; Israel, Muslims, Homosexuality, Ireland.... have taken each one of them over and ascertained that they cannot be discussed reasonably and democratically.
Discussion always starts with a reasonable input into the topic; people disagreeing with one another, but exchanging their views calmly and reasonably.
Then in come the guard-dogs and attach their vice-like grip on the topic until, one by one, everybody else walks away.
I was stupid enough to believe that rottweilers could be reasoned with; I think Muskie has fallen into the same trap - they really can't.
For them, it is about "winning" - and they are prepared to use any trick in the book to take home the glittering prizes."

Maybe...just maybe it's NOT about 'winning'...maybe it's about turning people(often stubborn idiots), onto the truth, instead of more hogwash political propaganda??



Musket: "Keith. Perhaps people of real faith will see your weird "it's Christians always being persecuted by "Islamists" and it might put a few off too eh?"

Why be always against the Christians??...and lean toward Islamists??..at least Christians have their differences with homosexuals, but Islamists will kill them immediately!...and Christians!...and YOU!!



Jim Carroll: "OH - Something I forgot - they usually qualify their position by disowning it and saying it was someone elses.
"and nothing to do with me."

Yeah!...It's ALWAYS THOSE OTHER GUYS, huh?



Big Al Whittle: "as for you Ake - wash your hands thoroughly after shaking hands, put some raw fruit in your porridge and put toilet paper round the seat, and don't give blow jobs to strangers...."

Damn it, Ake!!.....Big Al, knows its really patriotic and non-homophobic to 'give blow jobs to strangers'....what is wrong with you??....You should look to Al for inspiration!



Jim Carroll: "Oh - something else I forgot.
They persistently pot things, then deny they have posted them"

Methinks Ol' Jim would prefer that 'they' hash things out before potting them!



Keith A of Hertford: "I just point out accusations that are false.
Who would not defend themselves from such smears?"

Anyone who can't wipe very well!


Jim Carroll: "Then in come the guard-dogs and attach their vice-like grip on the topic until, one by one, everybody else walks away.
I was stupid enough to believe that rottweilers could be reasoned with; I think Muskie has fallen into the same trap - they really can't."

I bet that it hasn't occurred to you that maybe Ol' Muskie IS the trap!



Musket: "That's twice Akenaton has tried to slur the person behind Musket and my fitness for purpose for my professional life."

Quick Akenaton, you're slipping!...You're only 7,429 short of Musket..really DO try to keep up!



Big Mick: "To paraphrase: there are none so deaf as those who will not hear. There are none so ignorant as those who refuse to comprehend."

What did you mean??..Did I hear you correctly??



Musket: "Opinions tend to say that they don't want change or that gay marriage changes their perception of marriage or that promiscuity amongst men can provoke a higher risk of infection than between similar irresponsible behaviour between men and women. People can say that they don't understand gay feelings so have difficulty accepting the concept."

In other words,"Everybody go fuck someone....it won't hurt your feelings or health!!...or theirs...Ol' Muskie guarantees it!



Musket: "Oh Keith. I did say I was fucking important. No need to keep bringing it up. Perhaps you might bring up what I also said? I'm not important but I am fucking important.
There again, your obnoxious black and white waffle is based on face value. Hence I said it."

Quite self-explanatory!!!!


GfS, Chairman of the Bored

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Apr 14 - 06:27 AM

I'm tired of quoting you and being called a liar.

You've made promises before and walked away from them

"I am not going to argue with you again Jim, but I ask that when you accuse me of saying something, you produce the actual quote.
If you can support any of today's accusations with such a quote, I promise I will leave Mudcat.
Really leave."

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Apr 14 - 06:28 AM

300!

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Musket
Date: 19 Apr 14 - 06:41 AM

Did you know Dave, that I am going to do some real name dropping?

I once tossed a coin with Sam Sherry to see who was to get the settee and who gets the floor at Mick Heywood's house, back when he lived Dewsbury way.

I won, but as he was an old man, I let him have the settee anyway.

(Batley Folk Festival, early '80s. Mick said the 5 star hotels weren't good enough for the performers and he had a better idea....)

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 19 Apr 14 - 06:42 AM

Two more came up..........

Dave the Gnome: "Errrrrr, GfS, it isn't me trying to say that the British must be repressed because of the way the Irish dance."

Don't worry..if you said it, it must be whacked....Did it ever occur to you that the Irish DID live in a repressed society??.... Shit!... between the Church and Britain you'd HAVE to be fast on your feet while looking rigid!...and give the appearance of not having a great time!!
We use to just say, "Hey man, maintain."


Big Al Whittle: "back to the wigwam Lizzie - they'll be sending smoke signals behind your back. I know you're not paranoid, but that Old Nokomis is such a bitch,,,,,"


WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You are being rude....while occupying their land!

GfS

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Jeri
Date: 19 Apr 14 - 06:42 AM

Jim, you talk about rottweilers as if they were other people. You are one. There's a reason I think of certain threads as "The Keith and Jim Show", and while I once read your posts for your musical knowledge, I now mostly avoid them for the compulsive fighting with Keith. Go look at your posting history and see what I'm talking about.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Ed T
Date: 19 Apr 14 - 07:02 AM

Let's suppose someone used a fake name on a web discussion forum. Then, let's say, that someone plays with the name, in in one way or another, the heat of a discussion.

Since it is not the posters real name, are they justified in being offended? Or, is that just being "super-sensitive"

A show of hands on this one, no recorded vote needed.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Apr 14 - 07:59 AM

Did it ever occur to you that the Irish DID live in a repressed society??

No occurring required, GfS. I know they do. But that is not what you said. Your exact phrase, to save you looking it up, was -

The mentality of the British Isles: suppress anything that isn't acceptable, and it will go away and life will be wonderful."

Yes, you can tell that by 'Step Dancing'...true story...the feet are going a mile a minute(or kilometer, if you prefer) but the head and shoulders remain rigid. This is indicative of a repressive society

The British Isles, for the record, is mainland Britain, the whole of Ireland and a host of other bits. Not to be confused with Great Britain, which does not include the south of Ireland. I know from past discussions that it is a difficult concept for some in the US but if you are going to start tarring peoples with the same brush you need to be clear who your targets are. Hope this helps. Besides, psycho-analysis based on dance styles is still a stupid concept. What would you make of these guys who are dancing out today not 20 miles from us? :-)


Ed - Yes, they are being super sensitive.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Apr 14 - 08:19 AM

"Go look at your posting history and see what I'm talking about."
Jeri
I am well aware of my posting history, and not particularly proud of it.
The only big-time, long-term conflicts I have had on this forum have been with Keith - I've had numerous arguments over music, but I regard that par for the course on a music forum.
I believe Keith to be a racist and a sectarian, and I believe that he has consistently manipulated this forum to propound his beliefs - and, it would appear, is still prepared to do so.
These are the two subjects I believe to be the greatest evil in society today, and I make no apology in arguing against them - put it down to a weakness in my upbringing, if you like.
If I thought that Keith's opinions in any way reflected the views of the majority of the members on this forum, I'd have gone like a shot from it long ago - plenty of better, more articulate sites than this to argue against, if I was into that sort of thing.
Keith appears to be virtually on his own in his racial and sectarian hatred - apart from a couple of casual voices in the background, dipping in then disappearing.
He regards those who oppose him as "muppets", arguing with us as "casting pearls before swine" and his own views as "infallible" (all traceable quotes)
He consistently makes outrageous statements which he later denies having made, then, when they are pointed out to him, he calls those who had the temerity to do so "liars" - if you want a perfect example of his doing this., resurrect the 'Irish Potato Blight' thread and look at his last postings.
He refuses to accept responsibility for his own views, reverting that they are somebody else's and he is "only the messenger" (ref to any of half-a-dozen threads, including this one.
He attempts to undermine arguments by claiming they are not valid "thread drift" or that his opponent's views are unimportant because they haven't been around long enough and things should be left in the hands of those who have - "things are better left as they are, or some such wording (this thread).
He has declared himself "infallible" on some of the subjects he has argued on (easily traceable")
His lack of support on thread after thread speaks for itself - he even faked a posting in his own support at one stage because he was getting none elsewhere - he was warned by the administrators for doing so, so he can hardly deny this.   
He dominates threads and harries them to death, time after time after time... go and count the number on which his the last name.
I value being on a forum where I can share ideas and knowledge with like-minded people, even when arguments get heated and sometimes abusive (I happily put my hand up to that one)
I very much enjoy the added privilege of being able to spread that discussion to other areas of interest I share with others.
I resent bitterly that right being vandalised by basically one individual, and if that becomes an indication of the political leanings off that Forum, I wish not to have my name associated with it - at present, I don't believe it is.
I have reported Keith for what I believe to be his unacceptable behaviour - he, you or anybody else is perfectly at liberty to take the same action against me.
If things remain as they are pour arguments will continue to destroy threads,as they have done so far.
I believe if Keith is allowed to continue to do what he is doing the BS section of Mudcat will become untenable and the members with have been deprived of a valuable privilege - I have no intention of standing by and letting it happen and I have no intention of being around when it does.
Yours
The "muppet", the "liar" and one off "the swine" before whom "pearls are cast".   
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Apr 14 - 10:56 AM

You might "believe Keith to be a racist and a sectarian," but it is all in your head Jim.
I never have and never would make a statement that is either.

That is why you can only produce one 3 year old post which is neither of those things anyway.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 19 Apr 14 - 12:37 PM

Dave the Mutant Gnome: "Did it ever occur to you that the Irish DID live in a repressed society??
No occurring required, GfS. I know they do. But that is not what you said. Your exact phrase, to save you looking it up, was -
"The mentality of the British Isles: suppress anything that isn't acceptable, and it will go away and life will be wonderful."

Did it ever occur to you that you must REALLY be desperate??....The quote you attributed to me, was actually from Joe Offer!!


From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 05:54 PM

Joe Offer: "I said above - The mentality of the British Isles: suppress anything that isn't acceptable, and it will go away and life will be wonderful."

FROM:

From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 05:31 PM

"I said above - The mentality of the British Isles: suppress anything that isn't acceptable, and it will go away and life will be wonderful."

Dave the Mutant Gnome: "I know they do. But that is not what you said. Your exact phrase, to save you looking it up, was -
"The mentality of the British Isles: suppress anything that isn't acceptable, and it will go away and life will be wonderful."

Good thing I DIDN'T Listen to you AGAIN...I DID look it up.

You still haven't gotten over the 'ex-gay' activist link.


Some people refuse to learn...some are intentionally ignorant....some, just plain stupid!

GfS

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Apr 14 - 01:08 PM

You still haven't gotten over the 'ex-gay' activist link.

Huh? What is there to get over? Some right wing dickhead decided that he was going to have a go at gay people and their lifestyle. No skin off my nose. Seems to be par for the course over there.

Apologies for attributing the wrong quote to you. I should have known it was not you as it was written in English. But, it was a quote that you provided and I note that you still have nothing to say about the idiocy of using a dance style to brand a country as repressed.

I certainly agree with your last comment :-)

On the subject of idiocy, I think you may like this cartoon.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Apr 14 - 01:13 PM

Ye Gods! The Springer Page of MudCat.

Perhaps we can arrange some real-life mud-fighting somewhere.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 19 Apr 14 - 02:14 PM

Dave the Mutant Gnome: "Huh? What is there to get over? Some right wing dickhead decided that he was going to have a go at gay people and their lifestyle. No skin off my nose. Seems to be par for the course over there."

DtG: "I do not believe for one minute that some homosexuals decided to change their minds."

Then explain THIS!.....You should be thanking me!....or just stay uninformed! .....
..Or this, from your imaginary 'right wing dickhead'

DtG: "I do not believe for one minute that some homosexuals decided to change their minds."

Well, Seeing is believing.....except for the DELUSIONAL!

Now you know something you DIDN'T KNOW, or believe before!..Don't blame me...blame the jerk-offs who sold you a bad bill of goods!

GfS

P.S. We'll be awaiting your explanation...don't choke!

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Apr 14 - 02:35 PM

Imaginary right wing dickhead? Nothing imaginary about Michael Glatze, GfS, but he is definitely a right wing dickhead. I knew about him a long time before you knew how to spell Google. He was either never homosexual or he is now in denial. You can no more go from being homosexual to being heterosexual than you can go the other way. You always are one or the other no matter how often you say you can 'cure' homosexuality.

As you are so fond of linking a single instance to 'prove' your case maybe you would like to read this article in which a former advocate of reparative therapy apologises to the gay community for his unproven claims.


Still no explanation for tarring the Irish as a repressed nation because of the way some of the dance yet? You really are a source of constant amusement :-)

DtG

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 19 Apr 14 - 03:16 PM

Dave the Gnome: "He was either never homosexual or he is now in denial."

Or....Or.....Or.....which is it?

...and He WAS a homosexual...didn't you read the article from the NYT or Wikipedia???

As so far as your 'former advocate of reparative therapy'...you are an 'advocate' of homosexuality....but all that is just political....NOT FACTUAL!
I prefer sticking to FACTS...not political rhetoric.
Perhaps your 'advocate' should discuss it with Michael Glatze! He might learn a thing or two, instead of writing OPINION pieces, based on the latest person he talked to!!!(or maybe he just was pressured from another advocacy group....who knows?)..but he is flat out wrong...Oh, BTW, was he wrong then..or now???...You might want to check the reliability of your 'sources'....I do!(as witnessed by you!)

...and I'm not 'tarring' the Irish. Where did you come up with that bit of nonsense?

Repressed societies, as well as permissive societies, reflect that in the way they dance(among other manifestations).

Bíodh lá maith agat,

GfS

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 19 Apr 14 - 04:15 PM

Musket: "Are you still claiming you can cure homosexuality Goofus?"

Still making things up, eh?
You find and show me where I ever claimed that. You are referring to some of the bullshit Professor DF made up, while twisting, and re-phrasing posts....
...because if you can't, you are just another ideological bullshitter, like he is!!

Simple as that!

GfS

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Apr 14 - 04:17 PM

to be honest Lizzie - at the time you were showering facebook with native American wisdom. I was living off credit cards, and few gigs in toilets and taking care of two very disabled people.

you simply cannot imagine how platitudinous and bloody offensive - these nuggets of wisdom sounded to someone in my situation - someone deep in battle with the facts of modern life -wondering why other people living and presumably taking advantages of all the goodies available in north America, felt they were above the din of battle.

I did try to hint you were getting on my tits - but you didn't take any of the hints. yes women have brains. so try and work out when you are pissing people off if there might be a possible reason.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Ed T
Date: 19 Apr 14 - 04:31 PM

Gfs, nof trying to get into your dispute with others. However, I did not respond earlier to your Michael Glatze article.

While the Michael Glatze article you posted was interesting, if would hardly meet the rigour of a research test of any type. You have always seemed to be a fellow seeking truth through facts. One case hardly builds a solid case, one way or the other on one less than scientifically researched case.

Firstly, we don t know much about the fellow nor his actual motives.
My understanding is he was knce just as stong as an "in the limelight" advocate for the homosexual community, as he seems now to take the extreme opposite position- and, he is now again "in the limelight", as the "poster child" for those seeking one to hold one up high. This alone makes me question his character and reasoning. My understanding he has sought the movie route to document his to date (sexual orientation) life plight-again, this adds to my suspicion of his character and actual motives.

In addition, we don t really know whether he was/is a homosexual or a bisexual, at home with either sex.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 19 Apr 14 - 05:07 PM

Well, ed, if you read the links, in their entirety, it pretty much gives his background...However, you did strike a note well worth thought about Glatze, as well as almost anyone, and that is....'Don't confuse attention with Love!!!'
As to his motives, I'm not inside his brain, but he did have long term 'relationships' with both. When he was with guys, it was homosexual...and now he's married to a woman. According to the ideologues, this CAN'T or shouldn't happen.
Worth noting..the Gnome states: "Imaginary right wing dickhead? Nothing imaginary about Michael Glatze, GfS, but he is definitely a right wing dickhead."
He equates Glatze's position and condition to being a 'right wing dickhead'....how does 'politics' play into a mental/emotional/behavioral condition, that, according to the airheads, is sexually 'genetic'.....Just that alone, should send up red flags!!!
we KNOW that it is NOT 'genetic'..that is just a ploy, to give it 'Civil Rights' status....which covers RACE, CREED and COLOR. Personal pleasures doesn't seem to fit any of those....maybe unless you consider 'hedonism' a 'religion'!
Maybe the 'so-called liberals' can start a fringe party, called the 'Hand-Job Party'!! Same difference!

I am absolutely NOT interested in incorporating political rhetoric as scientific fact. Those who do, are dumber than a box of rocks!

GfS

GfS

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Ed T
Date: 19 Apr 14 - 05:20 PM

"According to the ideologues, this CAN'T or shouldn't happen."

What ideaologues ars you refering to, gts?

From a research perspective, I have never seen bisexual behaviour ruled out. Like with many things in life, it is reasonable to expect things on both extreme sides, and things overlaping in the middle.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Apr 14 - 06:00 PM

you were getting on my tits...

You're hardly alone, Al - Liz gets on everyones. One of her more "endearing" attributes..

but you didn't take any of the hints

Liz never does - likely 'cause she's never wrong. According to herself.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: frogprince
Date: 19 Apr 14 - 07:02 PM

Michael Glatz has not just swung from being homosexual, or allegedly so, to being vehemenently anti-homosexual. He has also swung from being an educated adult to being a full-blown fundamentalist. Has it occurred to you that that means believing that you live on a six thousand year old earth populated entirely with people and creatures who survived a big flood on a big boat four thousand years ago? We are supposed to make decisions about millions of people based on this person's history and allegations ????

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Apr 14 - 08:04 PM

I used to work with a bloke who reckoned that the bible was to be taken literally.

he was quite convinced he would be quids in with god, when Jesus came back to kick the shit out of the rest of us.

I don't think you will make much progress in reasoning with such a person, froggy old man.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 Apr 14 - 08:31 PM

I really wonder if it's worth using extreme examples in an argument, especially if the example is something in the past that is used to condemn a present-time group. Where is the value in bringing up the Inquisition, or Joe McCarthy, or Idi Amin, or the Westboro Baptist Church, or the Ku Klux Klan? Seems to me, we'd be far better off to evaluate the current issue at hand, maintaining a perspective of the extent and relevance of the issue.

That's often not the case at Mudcat. Self-righteous Mudcat demagogues feel it is their duty to take extreme situations and individuals to serve as "proof" of the wickedness of larger groups. This kind of twisted logic is the root of bigotry - but here at Mudcat, especially when it's spoken by proper liberals, it often seems to be the rule for discussion. Oftentimes, I wonder if there's any chance for rational, peaceful discussion here. Maybe the reason some think Mudcat "a boring place," is that there is no room here for the richness of constructive discussion. That used to be possible here, but it's rare nowadays.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Apr 14 - 08:55 PM

In a thread a few years ago, GfS let it slip that he had a close relative who "decided" to be gay.

That's why he's so hysterical about sexual orientation being determined by genetics. He's terrified of what might be lurking in his own genes.

Note: Reparative therapy applied to gays has a very poor track record, and among other things, has resulted in a number of suicides.

Cthulhu

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Janie
Date: 19 Apr 14 - 09:27 PM

The absolute silence regarding the killing of three people by a crazed man who thought they were jewish is something that in times past would have been discussed at length. An event I know is terribly disturbing to many of us and too important a topic to risk a thread started about it on Mucat today. Not because there might be differences of opinion, but because a small group have taken control who get off on pushing buttons (we all have buttons) understand this is a difficult area to explore and very painful. This simply is no longer a place or community where we can work through such awful events.

Powerful censorship by a small collective, diverse in their views but similar in terms of their personal needs, and absolutely dedicated to gratifying themselves. They are apparently unstoppable. They own this place now.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Janie
Date: 19 Apr 14 - 10:35 PM

Lord of the Flies.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Amos
Date: 20 Apr 14 - 12:44 AM

OR at least, Lord of the Straw Men. Somehow the Mudcat was much more fun before this sort of argy-bargy built up such a head of steam; people spent their creative efforts in being insightful, honest and funny rather than waving their arms and spewing unclever bile at each others' imaginary personae.

May be we need a South of BS section, more appropriately--where anyone who wants to engage in ad hominem pissing contests can do so untroubled by creativity, rationality, or musical interests.


A

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Apr 14 - 01:31 AM

What's an argy-bargy, Daddy?

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 20 Apr 14 - 02:59 AM

Joe bemoans The UK and the differences between it and "the land of the free."

Well Goofus gives us, granted inadvertently, the real difference.

Here, scientific research into what makes someone gay or straight cannot take religious damage into account. It is accepted by both the fluffy end of the market (psychiatry and psychology) and by the test tube end of the market (genetics, neuroscience etc) that such matters are hard wired. Incidentally, so is bisexual. The US victims of religious cures that don't go on to commit suicide are usually, according to a paper I just looked up published in The Lancet the other year, of that ilk.

Here's an interesting nugget for you Goofus. A regulatory condition of providing healthcare here is that published guidelines have to be taken into account. The guidance issued to inspectors (I was closely involved up till last year) will not accept published guidelines of US origin unless It is from NEJM. Our own research body (NICE) feels commercial and political interests can tarnish the results.

I notice that both Kaiser Permanante and Evercare now use NICE guidelines.

See? The petulance of throwing away good quality tea was short sighted. You soon come running back for guidance on how to do things.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Apr 14 - 03:23 AM

It used to puzzle me to go into pubs and see a sign over the counter; "no politics, no religion".
It all comes clear now.
It's not the subjects that are the problem, it's the behaviour of those who discuss them, and the lack of respect and humanity that goes with them.
Most members of this forum seem to have that respect and that humanity - it only takes a few....
This is beginning to resemble a 'John Ford' bar-room brawl - all that's missing is the flying furniture and glasses.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Apr 14 - 03:27 AM

No bemoaning, Musket - I simply pointed out the differences between the U.S. and U.K. practices and philosophies with regards to freedom of speech. Each one has good points, and each has aspects that are annoying.
Is one better than the other? I don't know.
Maybe one is better-suited to one culture, and the other better-suited to the other.

There's only one thing I can say for certain: they're different. Why fight about it?

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 20 Apr 14 - 04:17 AM

I know what you are saying Joe. I thought I'd take a leaf out of the book of every other bugger on here and take you out of context.

There again, I'll probably stop doing it now. It isn't the fun it should be.

I fail to see what Keith gets out of it in fact.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Apr 14 - 04:21 AM

"He equates Glatze's position and condition to being a 'right wing dickhead'....how does 'politics' play into a mental/emotional/behavioral condition, that, according to the airheads, is sexually 'genetic'.....Just that alone, should send up red flags!!!
we KNOW that it is NOT 'genetic'..that is just a ploy, to give it 'Civil Rights' status....which covers RACE, CREED and COLOR. Personal pleasures doesn't seem to fit any of those....maybe unless you consider 'hedonism' a 'religion'"

Sanity hits it on the button Joe, the reason the forum is being destroyed by bad behaviour, is that four or five UKers object to the issues which constitute their political ideology, being discussed.
Homosexual "rights" and health issues arising from the lifestyle, immigration control and the effect of unregulated immigration on society and on the already over loaded infrastructure of the nation. The flaws in the theory of "multiculturalism and the sort of society which it is producing.
Religion and its true role in the guidance of society etc.

They simply have no reasonable answers to these serious and complicated problems and resort to Orwellian language in a concerted attempt to silence all posters with alternative views .....and any others who believe in free speech on controversial issues

There is certainly a "different" attitude towards free discussion here and in the US, this attitude is fostered in all media outlets, most of whom have their freedom of expression curtailed drastically
by EU laws and directives.

Keep you country free, don't be ruled by the pseuds and professionals.   Let the people think and speak for themselves.

For years I have been saying that the American people can save society and every day I become more sure that I have been correct,



They simply do

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Apr 14 - 04:27 AM

"It is accepted by both the fluffy end of the market (psychiatry and psychology) and by the test tube end of the market (genetics, neuroscience etc) that such matters are hard wired."

G Orwell...1984.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 20 Apr 14 - 04:47 AM

>>>>"to be honest Lizzie - at the time you were showering facebook with native American wisdom. I was living off credit cards, and few gigs in toilets and taking care of two very disabled people."<<<

So? Do you have any idea how hard my life is too?

>>>"you simply cannot imagine how platitudinous and bloody offensive - these nuggets of wisdom sounded to someone in my situation - someone deep in battle with the facts of modern life -wondering why other people living and presumably taking advantages of all the goodies available in north America, felt they were above the din of battle."<<<

So? I too struggle, but I also know the wisdom of the Native Americans NEEDS to be shared out as far as possible, even amongst many of their own people, who have become so colonized, and who are struggling FAR more than you or I, Al.   

Russell Means wrote 'If You've Forgotten The Name Of The Clouds, You've Lost Your Way' specifically to try and bring his People BACK into their Culture and Traditions, as well as get his message out to all of us too.

Read it. You may learn a great deal...and trust me, were THIS book 'The Bible', our world would be in a far better state...

>>>"I did try to hint you were getting on my tits - but you didn't take any of the hints. yes women have brains. so try and work out when you are pissing people off if there might be a possible reason."<<<

Excuse me, but I am free to put on MY Facebook page ANYTHING I so choose, as you are on yours...and I would NEVER have the arrogance to feel that you were pissing me off and should change what you do, simply to please me!

I've lived a VERY shitty life for the past 13 years, looked after my now ex-mother-in-law throughout ALL of that time. She's still here with me, will be 100 years old in September...I've been through 2 divorces, had to learn to run a home all on my own, been betrayed, abused and used..and recently, even the subject of a very nasty Facebook Hate Campaign, brought about by a very unpleasant woman who is anything *but* what she pretends to be on her page....So I have EVERY excuse to be truly pissed off and go rampaging around the internet pissing everyone off and behaving like an arrogant twit, but..I choose not to do that.

I will ALWAYS respond to unpleasantness, about me, or about others, defending those who need to be defending, standing up for those who need some support...

If that 'gets on your tits', well, tough, Sunshine, because I will never change the person I am, nor will I ever stop trying to spread the word about the wisdom of Indigenous Peoples and the horror so many of them are going through at present as The Corporations move in on their land, destroying their lives as they do so.

Just as well I blocked you from my FB page. You were quite FREE to leave it though. Respect other people..and if you don't like their pages, just leave them.

I was deeply offended by your remarks, as there is nothing 'sexual fantasy-wise' going on in ANY way with my support of Indigenous Peoples, just a huge amount of anger over their history and current situation and a vast amount of respect that so many of them are still here, still holding on to their culture as best they can, in a world which is rapidly trying to tear them from it, in every way...I will continue to get their story and wisdom out to as many people as I possibly can.


Read Russell's book, for it seems to me that you HAVE Forgotten The Names Of The Clouds......

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Apr 14 - 05:06 AM

not sure I ever knew the name of the clouds. lets just leave it that way. sorry that I offended you. I do actually try to respect other peoples feelings. i never suspected you of having a thing about men in loin cloths - more my sort of thing really. best wishes -al.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 20 Apr 14 - 05:55 AM

Keep writing Akenaton.

Some of the above makes the shift from contemptable hatred to silly laughable stupidity.

Possibly the first time you have written something that made me laugh rather than feel sick.

Keep it up and given time, you might be able to join polite society, albeit at the fringes.





I do keep making the mistake of taking you at face value. I do forget to take your lack of intelligence into account. I must learn to be more like everyone else on these threads and humour / dismiss you. To date I seem to be the only one who has given you the respect of taking your views seriously.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 20 Apr 14 - 06:05 AM

Frogprince,(or anyone else whose liberal agenda has blinded them), Read the links, before you expound into philosophical 'conjecture'...then I don't have to 'debate' with blankness, void of any understanding of the subject, except your political view on the matter....because the 'so-called liberal concept' dictates that nobody has a choice, to either be homosexual or not!...or to change their 'orientation' (Read: mind)..and then parrot off some idiotic notion that all homosexuals were 'born that way' due to 'genetics', which not only has NOT been proven, and has NO legs to stand on, but quite the opposite has been acknowledged!!...by very the studies your claims say they are based on!!
People are NOT born with 'political agendas' overriding their personal choices....what next?....ideologies are going to dictate what a person HAS to do for a living, based on 'they were born that way' genetics???..or how much they are allowed to make, according to what was 'genetically' predetermined for them...or how creative a person is ALLOWED to be, based on the same nonsense???
The claims that I made, while putting up with DF Firth, (for years) STILL hold up, AND ARE substantiated, not only be the most recent studies, but by testimonies from EX-homosexuals!! ...I know that just grates some of you, but too bad...maybe YOU should change, and adopt another outlook, which concedes that people DO have the freedom to choose who they fuck and why!.....and maybe even have the freedom to change course, recognizing that there just might be some value within them that someday they just might want to pass onto the next generation, of their own!...because IF the decide to want to, is NO business of yours or some restricting idiotic political crackpot notion, that says they can't...or are not allowed...or deny any mental/emotional counseling, that they may desire to help them along the way!!!!
...and as Frank Zappa pointed out in a song years ago..'Who Are the Brain Police'??..YOU???...the Republicans?? Democrats??...Whigs?? Tories??...Greens??..Libertarians??..Tea Party??
Fuck ALL of them!
How about some freedom, again??

GfS

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Apr 14 - 07:55 AM

Akenaton has it right.
There is a group who will not allow debate on certain issues.
Their dogma.
They will not or can not argue their case, resorting to swearing, name calling and inventing statements no-one has made to attack.

I name Musket, Jim, Greg and Steve.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Apr 14 - 08:08 AM

Why not report our behaviour as I have yours Keith?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Apr 14 - 08:11 AM

the thing is, Keith -people's patience runs out. you make your point of view very well. but you do go on.

I think you have to accept that some people don't agree with you.

you keep coming up with new facts but if someone doesn't have your point of view - its unlikely to persuade.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 20 Apr 14 - 08:33 AM

I got as far as "Akenaton has it right" before dismissing it as irrelevant drivel.

Goofus waffles on about ex homosexuals and invokes Frank Zappa somewhere in the middle of it. I'll have a pint of what he's on. His posts on this subject really make your toes curl. Perhaps if he could do the reverse treatment on my greyhound he might just stop licking his ex balls all day? Mind you, letting any poor creature near Goofus and his dangerous quackery might just get you on an animal cruelty charge.

Me? Just a stiff back from my seasonal "Jesus on a rubber cross" routine that accompanies gigs during Holy Week.

Counting the days to my holiday if truth be known. Once we get the visiting friends in Inverary and Fife out of the way, it's Cairngorms, foot blisters and hopefully no internet access for a few days. Making the most of it in case we need a visa from the end of the year.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Ed T
Date: 20 Apr 14 - 08:38 AM

"testimonies from EX-homosexuals!! "

You linked one often quoted "ex-homosexual" to back up this statement, gfs. IMO, this person seems suspect and potentially biased.

Is there valid research that you could link on here to add some content to this interesting statement (the type of research that does not come from an agenda- based source)?

I am not "taking you on", or "picking on you specifically" It is because am interested in the validity of this statement, as I have not seen much on this matter. However, I have read much on the opposing viewpoint.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Apr 14 - 08:56 AM

"you make your point of view very well."
The point is, he doesn't Al - his contributions are wars of attrition, ending in the-last-man-standing - not arguments.
"some people don't agree with you"
Very few people agree with him, he is invariably a lone voice exactly because of the above - the rest of us are "Muppets", "liars" and "swine" before whom he "casts his pearl of wisdom" - he declares himself "invincible (all traceable quotes).
He doesn't come up with new facts - he comes with pre-conceived opinions and seeks out out-of-context cut-'n-pastes which he claims back up those opinions - invariably they don't.
His recently developed technique has become to produce "experts", claim total ignorance in the subject in hand and declare himself to be "only the messenger" - over and over and over again.
Most people come to these arguments to share opinions and knowledge - Keith states regularly that he has "won" something, turning them into competitions.
I've never known anybody being told that they have no right to an opinion the way Keith has here and elsewhere.
I've never known anybody to be called "anti-British", because they criticise aspects of British policy, or "anti-religious" because they criticise the Church - Keith has done the former regularly and has recently developed the latter as a substitute for argument.
I have never had anybody other than Keith tell me I have no right to express an opinion on British politics because we have chosen to live outside that country - in which I was born and brought up - Keith has done so over and over again up to a point where I was forced to threaten to report him for interfering with my right to state an opinion.
It is this behaviour that "will not allow debate on certain issues".
I find both Keith's and Akanaton's political views on Muslims and homosexuality repugnant, but as far as I'm concerned, they can be dealt with openly on a level playing field - though I do feel the "hate" content of them should stay within the law.
Keith's statements have passed that point and his behaviour has done much to ascertain that they will never be debated fairly if he has anything to do with it.
Up to now I have never had recourse to involve site administrators in our disputes - Keith has been the only one to force me break a habit of a lifetime - and it's been wonderfully cathartic - wish I'd done it earlier, then maybe we would't have naused up so many threads with out black-hole arguments.
As I say, he or anybody has the right to take the step I have taken - if I or anybody has breached anybody's right to free speech - report us - we really should not be allowed to continue.
He will now tell us that "this is all lies" - everything heer is traceable and has been raised again and again
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Apr 14 - 09:08 AM

Quick addenda
Even before my resignation has gone through, Keith is implying that I had no right to express an opinion as a guest
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Apr 14 - 09:12 AM

I find both Keith's and Akanaton's political views on Muslims and homosexuality repugnant,

I am not going to argue with you again Jim, but I ask that when you accuse me of saying something, you produce the actual quote.

The only view I have ever expressed on homosexuals is that I am in favour of gay marriage.
Is that really so repugnant to you?

I have never expressed a view about Muslims that anyone, certainly no Muslim, could possibly object to.

You have to make shit up.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Apr 14 - 09:16 AM

Even before my resignation has gone through, Keith is implying that I had no right to express an opinion as a guest

I am not going to argue with you again Jim, but I ask that when you accuse me of saying something, you produce the actual quote.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: GUEST,Gueest from Sanity
Date: 20 Apr 14 - 09:23 AM

Ed, you have to do this, because the link maker wasn't able to....

Go to either Yahoo or Google, and type in: "testimonies of ex-gays"

There are tons of them...some religious based, some not....some therapy based...but what is really interesting is how MANY of them spoke about the hostile pressure put on them from 'anti ex-homosexual activist groups'...They also speak of how FREE they feel getting out of the homosexual trip.

Musket, Your post says NOTHING..just ranting about what a 'bad guy' I am.
Notice how Ed T asks a question??...and discusses the replies in a decent, mature way??
Try it.

GfS

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Apr 14 - 09:49 AM

A little background music maestro.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Ed T
Date: 20 Apr 14 - 10:11 AM

Thanks, gfs, will look there.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Apr 14 - 11:04 AM

"I have never expressed a view about Muslims that anyone, certainly no Muslim, could possibly object to."
I relly am not gong to reproduce your underage sex cultural implant statement again - but perhaps you might explain how no Muslim would ever describe such an accusation as not just being highly offensive, but downright lethal - that is the kind of accusation that incites yobbos to pour petrol through letter-boxes
Hands up all those who would be happy to have a neighbour who has to suppress his cultural implants in order to contain himself from having it off with their under-age daughter - hold those hands up so I can count you all......
"Not just do an impression of someone stuck in a revolving door!
I'm gone--Here I am!--I'm gone--Here I am!--I'm gone-Here I am!-"
Whatever my status here, guest or member, you have no right whatever to undermine what I say by pointing out my situation
I have never resigned from this Forum and it is par for your particular course to suggest I have.
"Who asked you to ride in here and denounce people who have been here for years? We liked things as they were thank you. Go and save someone else please."
Are we to presume someone is posting these in your name - both are from this thread.
I assume you accept everything else I have put up as unchallengable?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Jeri
Date: 20 Apr 14 - 11:36 AM

When one of you lot post, the thread is going to turn to shit. I wish Max would give the Mudcat Fight Club a permathread and not let you post anywhere else. I also wish I were rich and could fly.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 20 Apr 14 - 12:17 PM

So this is now bickering between Jim, Keith, Musket, Steve, and even Lizzie - who went away for a while - has come back to slug it out, offering up a perfect organic illustration of why Mudcat threads become boring. I agree with Jeri - some of you apparently join a thread just because someone you disagree with has posted and for no other reason.

SRS

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 20 Apr 14 - 12:25 PM

Mudcat bickering

GfS

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Apr 14 - 12:25 PM

I am not going to argue with you again Jim, but I ask that when you accuse me of saying something, you produce the actual quote.

You have not shown me saying or implying your opinion should not be heard. That was a lie.
You can not produce a quote of mine that is anti-Muslim. That was a lie.
On the thread you refer to I repeatedly defended Islam, saying it was not relevant to the offending.
You can not produce any anti-homosexual quote.
That was a lie.

You tell malicious lies against me.

BTW, there is no resignation process to go through.
You just have to stop posting.
As I told you, I think you should stay.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Apr 14 - 12:29 PM

Jeri and SRS, I am not engaged in bickering.
I am just denying false allegations about me personally.
It is unreasonable to expect me to let slander go unchallenged.
I am not arguing about anything.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Apr 14 - 01:12 PM

You guys would argue over whether water is wet. You ruin every damned thread you post on. FOAD. Assholes!

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Jeri
Date: 20 Apr 14 - 01:15 PM

"I am not going to argue with you again Jim"
and
"I am not engaged in bickering."
and
Again: "I am not going to argue with you again Jim..."
I'm not even going to point out Jim's inability to stop, as I'm pretty sure he knows he has a li'l problem.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Apr 14 - 01:20 PM

"some of you apparently join a thread just because someone you disagree with has posted and for no other reason. "
Sorry SRS
I have put in a formal complaint regarding the consistent bad behaviour of a member - - by only issues with the individual in questions opinions   is that they breach United Kingdom laws regarding incitement to race hatred, they could, and it has been suggested, have already been the cause of a member from leaving Mudcat and that recent attacks on the Irish and American Irish directly concern members of this forum.
I understood that it was in order to formally resign from Mudcat - I inadvertently sent my complaint to Joe Offer, who tells me he is the wrong person to deal with it.
I expect a response, but did not expect one before the of the holiday.   
It has never been my intention to long-term argue with Keith, just to prevent this forum from being used as a platform for incitement to race-hatred.
Some of us have had problems with B.N.P. trolls hacking into Facebook accounts - it is a little 'bridge too far' to being asked to swallow having their message delivered consistently by a Forum member.
I await a response and, if it is not forthcoming I would like my name removed from Mudcat
Again, with regret
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Apr 14 - 01:21 PM

SRS, I don't see how you can lump Keith in with the "pack", he never abuses anyone, only points out wilful lying, distortions and misrepresentations by the usual suspects.

It is important on a forum like this, where serious and controversial subjects are addressed, that truth is protected, distortion and misrepresentation of the words or views of other members,
makes debate impossible, too much time is wasted pointing out the distortions.

One particular member of the "pack", continually distorts what I write, but I just do not have the time to correct everything that he posts.

If we are to have a discussion forum we must ALL be honest, facts are easy to check but most people don't have the time or inclination to look back to check what was actually said.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Apr 14 - 01:24 PM

the individual in questions opinions   is that they breach United Kingdom laws regarding incitement to race hatred

I am not going to argue with you again Jim, but I ask that when you accuse me of saying something, you produce the actual quote.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Jeri
Date: 20 Apr 14 - 01:24 PM

NFC...

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 20 Apr 14 - 01:26 PM

HEY!...This thread is about being a boring place....could we please get back to the topic!?!?

GfS

P.S. Wink!

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Apr 14 - 01:27 PM

BTW...I hate these abusive squabbles as much , or more than most.
I would love to be able to have a grown up conversation about all the issues I mentioned earlier, but it really is impossible unless the vandals are given a gentle warning, that continued bad behaviour will result in a term of temporary banishment from the fold.

If they really care for the future of this section, they will pay attention.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Apr 14 - 01:33 PM

"I'm not even going to point out Jim's inability to stop, as I'm pretty sure he knows he has a li'l problem."
You seem to have decided which side your on Jeri and have adopted Keith's tactics of ignoring what is posted in response.
My "problem" is I don't wish to share a space with someone who behaves like Keith has consistently done for several years now and appears to have now gone viral
The least I expect is acknowledgement, if not agreement
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 20 Apr 14 - 01:40 PM

You don't have time to correct what I post eh? Fook all to correct but I accept it is a struggle for you. Try not tying your boot laces at the same time.

SRS. I don't do any of what you say. If you read properly I challenge bigotry, hate and lies. The origin is irrelevant.

You are confused purely because luckily, Mudcat doesn't have too many odious vermin and their apologists. They are small enough in number and influence to be able to be named without producing a list.

The liberal plot continues!

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 20 Apr 14 - 01:48 PM

Speaking of 'BORING'...let's argue about who's arguing!

..........only in Mudcat!

GfS