fingerpicking guitar

Subject: fingerpicking guitar
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 May 14 - 04:23 PM

IS this skill dying out amongst young guitarists, just lately I keep coming across plectrum thrashing guitarists, they cannot seem to flatpick properly either, am i just unlucky?have others experienced this phenomenon.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Musket
Date: 12 May 14 - 06:12 PM

But they can "pleccy" properly eh?

Horses for courses.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 May 14 - 08:33 PM

sunjay brayne....came second in the BBC young foksinger nonsense. despite being at the time a seventeen year old who could play in tradition of Bert Jansch and Gerry Lockran.

a celtic outfit won. playing music that sounded identical to every other celtic outfit.

if the folk establishment have no idea of the artistic importance of the emergence of a young talent like Sunjay. what chance the kids.....?

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 May 14 - 03:58 AM

Richard Bridge, what is the meaning of your comment., apart from it being rude.
Musket, no they cant flatpick anything like Malcolm Price could, they are not pleccying very well, some of them are not even hitting bass strings cleanly.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: GUEST,Gibsonboy
Date: 13 May 14 - 07:42 AM

Good Soldier Schweik, I'm with you on this. It takes time and precision to learn the art of Fingerpicking or Flatpicking, whereas thrashing two or three chords is quick and easy and appeals very much to the X Factor generation, which Mr Bridge seems to support. Like you I see too many young players, just strumming open tuned chords (which really are not chords at all), over using suspended voicing and generally making everything sound the same. I would say they need to spend more time learning the subtly of playing and set themselves above the average three chord thrasher.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 13 May 14 - 09:00 AM

Newbies (young or old) probably play that way because that's all they've ever heard. Two months ago, an Irish band came to town to a major venue, and I checked out their act on YouTube. They sounded like a band playing in the 1980's.

If famous, world-travelling bands play that way, then that must be the right way to do it, nicht wahr?

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 13 May 14 - 09:02 AM

Depends where you go, I suppose. Sure, at open mics you'll generally just see young singer-songwriters ineptly strumming a 3-chord song.

But I can think of tons of young fingerstyle guitarists. In fact at the particular music nights in London that I happen to go to, I'd say fingerstyle is probably more prevalent than strumming.

I could make a list of names but I can't be bothered.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: GUEST,Richard
Date: 13 May 14 - 09:18 AM

Absolutely not. There are a lot of excellent young finger and flat pickers around, well known and not so, in folk clubs around here (North London) Good singers, as well.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 May 14 - 09:19 AM

well true enuff matt' but I don't see another generation of Derek Brimstones, Gerry Lockrans, Ralph McTells - they were always a bit thin on the ground. but generally speaking you felt you were seeing something you couldn't do yourself. I don't get that feeling from anyone except Wizz and Sunjay - these days.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: GUEST,Gibsonboy
Date: 13 May 14 - 09:40 AM

Try Tommy Emmanuel, Clive Carroll, Richard Smith, Arron Till, Doyle Dykes, not to mention the late Jerry Reed and Chet Atkins, and many more.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 May 14 - 10:08 AM

Some do, some don't, some can some can't.

Remember skiffle? Whether thrashing away is more common now than in earlier times is very doubtful, though always possible. My impression the standard of the best young players is better than it used to be, by a long way, and the standard of the worst is no worse.

We learn as we play, if we learn at all.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Musket
Date: 13 May 14 - 10:15 AM

Aye and nay bugger here had to learn and improve eh?

I "pick" most of the time when performing "folk" music. But I find my work with a plectrum to be much harder and in the right genre, much better.

Perhaps some people can't play plectrum as well as Malcolm Price? Perhaps, if we are resorting to a league table, he can't play as well as Gordon Giltrap who can't.....

Threads like this would really intimidate tomorrow's teenage Richard Thompsons..

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 May 14 - 10:23 AM

no, its not about intimidating anyone, it is about observing what is happening, i think it is connected with a move away from playing in clubs where people come specifically to listen, to open mike situations in pubs,perhaps it has a connection with attempted volume whilst playing acoustically to overcome background chatter and noise, but in pub situations fingerpicking is definitely in decline,. in folk clubs fingerpicking may still prevail, but my observation was made in regard to playing in pubs, I apologise if my statement was unclear.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 May 14 - 11:15 AM

no it's not about intimidating anyone. its about a folkscene that was too busy pursuing a phantom tradition to preserve living folk music.

clive carrol, chet atkins etc - not really anything to do with uk folkclubs.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 May 14 - 11:37 AM

Al, are you referring to the revival of english tradtional folk songs, and the attempts to counter and discourage english performers from singing american songs. it is quite true it happened.however , i do not see the connection between that and guitar techniques

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 May 14 - 11:56 AM

well yes....I would say that hand in hand with the trad revival began an abandonment of the time signatures and even the system of scales and keys that were the common currency of the music of the man in the street

remember that bloke, the poet, who didn't believe in chords even.

and really if you look at Carthy's version of Geordie/Georgie - you can see how he got there. MC doesn't play chords he plays notes.

And if you don't play chords - as a guitar player, you're pretty well fucked. Can you follow what I am saying?

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Will Fly
Date: 13 May 14 - 12:59 PM

There's still a few of us around, Al - doing our bit where we can.

Here's a little something I do occasionally in the folkie world that usually gets a spot of attention...

Variations on Freight Train

I see a few young players around Brighton getting it together here and there. All hope is not lost. :-)

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: GUEST,Gibsonboy
Date: 13 May 14 - 01:16 PM

Martin Carthy is probably the exception as he comes from the world of altered tunings, but all the other you mention Big Al are copying American styles so to me are just tributes to the real thing.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: johncharles
Date: 13 May 14 - 03:55 PM

I am sure there are many good young players. Have a look at some of this chaps work.



tom attah
john

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 May 14 - 06:44 PM

will fly, excellent guitar finger picking, thankyou.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 13 May 14 - 07:20 PM

There are some very good younger players about, and they are making it through to professional level. But around the sessions and the recently started players, strumming (or even thrashing) does seem to be the order of the day. Among friends that I play with, they sometimes need to be reminded that finger-picking would sound nicer for certain songs or arrangements.
Me, I'm a finger-picker (self-taught)who still can't really do "the big strum" properly or even use a pick - nail abuse!

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 May 14 - 07:33 PM

I think you are being too censorious Richard. Actually it saddens me also that one of the traditions of the folk revival have just gone kerplunk and pretty much disappeared. I think Dick feels the same.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 May 14 - 12:27 AM

Wow, Will Fly. I greatly enjoyed your version. Great work.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 May 14 - 12:50 AM

If they sound like they want to sound, that is "right".

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 14 May 14 - 02:08 AM

Great job, Will. Dick, I've encountered lots of good young finger-pickers, but then again I'm in the U.S. and not where you are. Looking forward to picking with you in June.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 May 14 - 04:40 AM

"If they sound like they want to sound, that is "right"."
it may be right for them but that does not make it right for listeners, if we used that argument for the singing britney spears, it may be right for Britney, but it dont make it right for me.
let us take another example peter pears and benjamin britten, the water is wide waly waly, it may be right for them my opinion is it aint right for me
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gHTw9XjKMc

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: johncharles
Date: 14 May 14 - 06:32 AM

Outstanding fingerpickers are by definition rare creatures. There are however, many very good fingerpickers. Harking back to "golden days" seems to be prevalent, if not usually true, amongst we older generations.
john

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 May 14 - 08:21 AM

What you are saying, Dick, is that if it does not sound the way you want it, it's wrong. De gustibus non disputandum. Or if not enough people like it it's wrong. That's an affront to artistic integrity.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 May 14 - 11:16 AM

No,YOU are saying, "if they sound like they want to sound it is right"
what i am saying, is that right to one person is not necessarily right for the listener.
it was you who mentioned something being wrong, furthermore you posted two extremely unpleasant posts sayingSubject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Richard Bridge - PM
Date: 12 May 14 - 06:05 PM

Arse, yours, up?
and another sayingSubject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Richard Bridge - PM
Date: 13 May 14 - 05:18 PM

I see this as Dick being a dick and trying to say he is better than the rest of us."
your posts reveal a lot about yourself, they are also rude, and inaccurate, at no time have I mentioned anything about my own playing, your posts are particularly ridiculous as I am primarily a concertina player, an instrument it is difficult to flatpick with a plectrum, please stop flaming.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Stanron
Date: 14 May 14 - 11:17 AM

"let us take another example peter pears and benjamin britten, the water is wide waly waly, it may be right for them my opinion is it aint right for me
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gHTw9XjKMc"

I used to dislike this style of singing but now find quite a lot to admire.

However, the piano playing...!?

What planet.. etc. I really loath those crunchy, discordant, small interval chords enough in jazz. At least in jazz there's some sort of excuse in as much as there is a rule that you have to mindlessly use this kind of so called harmony, but surely not with a folk song. YUK!

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 May 14 - 11:33 AM

Stanron...cool it man!

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Will Fly
Date: 14 May 14 - 11:44 AM

Actually, the piano arrangement was very interesting - using rising and falling versions of the same harmonic phrase around the repetitions of the main melodic line.

Nowt wrong wi' that, as we used to say in my native Lancashire. One man's meat, etc...

If you think you don't get that sort of stuff in folkie-type music, have a listen to some of the wonderfully outrageous solos that Richard Thompson gets away with so brilliantly!

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 May 14 - 12:02 PM

that is the whole point, it is all a matter of opinion, which is why richard bridges statement about right, is arguable.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: johncharles
Date: 14 May 14 - 12:11 PM

I have now got this image in my head, of Britney Spears sat agonising
" Yes this Song will make me millions but is it right for GSS".
it is worse than an earworm.
john

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 14 May 14 - 01:30 PM

The website "Cdbaby" is a good place to check out what is happening.
I used the "advanced search" facility and requested "solo fingerstye guitar" recordings.
cdbaby search

Other searches that I could have requested could be, for example, "celtic fingersyle guitar" or, using the "sounds like" search facility, I could have put in the name of my favourite fingerstyle player.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 May 14 - 01:36 PM

I don't see the guitar picking that has arisen in English folk clubs as a tribute to the real thing.

if you studied it carefully you would realise that on the contrary - our approach to the acoustic guitar has resonated throughout the world. and I don't mean just the work of the traddies - Jones and Carthy.

I would put the work of Jansch, Graham and Eric Roche as being as influential and ground breakingly original as Django Rheinhardt was in his time.

The English style has a unique charisma. although I realise I have listed two Scotsmen and an Irishman - it happened in the English arena.

I learned Blind Lemon Jefferson's Matchbox Blues from Hamish Imlach, who had learned it from Jack Elliot - it was something different from the original before we took possession of it. Something uniquely ours.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: GUEST,GIbsonboy
Date: 14 May 14 - 03:28 PM

Wouldn't disagree with any of the above, and would also add Nick Jones, however, the earlier names of Jones, McTell, Brimstone, Lochran, and now Brayne are all very much American influenced.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 14 May 14 - 04:57 PM

Well, for many of us, Nic Jones is THE English folk guitarist.
But, he, of course, had his inspirations.
Bert Jansch's sound and attack, and certain of Bert's techniques have greatly informed Nic's playing.
And, although Nic in his later playing phased out a lot of American influences ( like Carthy had done), he does use those influences in a breathtaking way in some later recording.
See link below, for an example of how Nic a riff, that could have come from a blues/rock band, to drive forward his rendition of an English ballad(I believe the tune is a Nic original).

Nic really rocks!

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Stanron
Date: 14 May 14 - 05:23 PM

That sounds more eastern European than American and the highly decorative, open tuned guitar style is much more Uk than American.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Will Fly
Date: 14 May 14 - 05:48 PM

To me, it has distinct overtones of Davy Graham - and, for unusual tunings and odd decoration, take a listen to some of the work of American guitarist John Fahey.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 May 14 - 06:56 PM

Carthy names Broonzy as one of his great influences. and if you listen to the swing in those bass strings - you will see what he means. ironically I would have said Carthy influenced some American guitarists. last year I saw Spider John Koerner and he was doing trad American folk songs - not using chords - but with a strong bass string single note accompaniment - very like MC.

isn't it in fact a two way street. I would object very strongly to English folk guitar being dismissed as some sort of tributary of American folk music. Lockran in particular could set the whole room swinging with his first two or three notes, - a guitarist of great uniqueness and distinction. I never saw his like before or since. And Derek Brimstone - his guitar sound was utterly unique -if you missed it cos of the dazzling chat - boy you missed out big time! He was one of the great stylists.

Frankly I get pissed off with hearing the work of both men dismissed by musicians not fit to lick their boots.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 May 14 - 07:06 PM

While I cannot hold a candle to Al as a guitarist, I would agree with classing the early Martin Carthy style as "Broonzy Thumb".   Latterly I think Carthy's guitar work has come come closer and ever to his dictum that folk music is in the time signature of 1. That would seem to distance it from US work.

All of it is a distance from whether an arrogant self-stated concertina player is competent to judge guitarists, and whether the benchmark is what he thinks, what the audience thinks, or what the performer intends.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 15 May 14 - 01:58 AM

WEll, early on Carthy used the the very popular style " clawhammer". Think of the accompaniment to LOrd Franklin".
Interestingly, Archie Fisher has continued to rely heavily on "clawhammer" style, but done beautifully with lots of subtle touches.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 May 14 - 02:28 AM

From: Richard Bridge - PM
Date: 12 May 14 - 06:05 PM

Arse, yours, up?
and another sayingSubject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Richard Bridge - PM
Date: 13 May 14 - 05:18 PM

I see this as Dick being a dick and trying to say he is better than the rest of us."



"All of it is a distance from whether an arrogant self-stated concertina player is competent to judge guitarists, and whether the benchmark is what he thinks, what the audience thinks, or what the performer intends."
Richard Bridge, why is starting a thread about fingerpicking, arrogant?, your above posts however are rude and inflammatory,and do not equate with sensible or interesting discussion.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 May 14 - 02:45 AM

please explain why a self stated concertina player[ are you doubting that i play concertina?]can not have an opinion on guitar finger picking, for the record i do play fingerpicking guitar and banjo at gigs, but have never made any claims about being better than anyone else, i am considered[ i believe] by most people to be a singer and concertina player, since you seem to be inferring that i might not play concertina at all, I can only conclude you have a peculiar sense of humour.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 May 14 - 03:30 AM

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=553014888063292&set=vb.463013160385848&type=2&theaterjust to prove that i do play english concertina, duet concertinahttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9k0HmPElec
since i appear to have been challenged by richard bridgehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0B_7pdBB-ts&list=PL998B0487CF451E7A http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lADsPWsoR4
I think that while i may not be as good as will fly, the fingerpicking is adequate enough for me to have an opinion on finger picking.
RichardBridge there is your answer, now stop this nonsensical claptrap

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 15 May 14 - 03:59 AM

Hasn't it always been the case that there are more strummers than pickers? As a non-musician I prefer to listen to pickers and sliders but in these days of instant success fewer young people may be prepared to take the time to learn the more difficult techniques.
RtS
70 and still only able to kazoo & scrape

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 15 May 14 - 04:01 AM

Case in point.

Last week I was asked to sing a particular song for which my accompaniment is in a modal tuning, runs and arpeggios with not a single chord reading it's melodic head. Fingers doing what Mike Harding calls "little white maggots with St Vitus Dance."

However, it wasn't a concert but a singaround in a noisy pub.

Guitar tuned to concert. Out came the plectrum. Get thrashing......

Horses for courses.

This thread could of course be about the versatility of the guitar and make the same arguments.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 May 14 - 04:11 AM

This is bushes and briars in standard tuning, fingerpicking guitar, RichardBridge ,the proof of the pudding is right here, again I do not claim to be in will flys class , but I think it entitles me to an opinion.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojVFPeU0YQU&list=PL998B0487CF451E7A

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 15 May 14 - 04:36 AM

Following on from Musket there are some songs where you might start with finger- picking, but then move to strumming as the song "builds".
And yes, beautiful finger-picking can go totally unheard in a noisy pub session, so best to have more than one arrangement at your disposal.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Musket
Date: 15 May 14 - 05:54 AM

Good point Tattie Bogle. Thinking on, I have a number of songs like that.

Plus, my "default" style is thumb pick and hammering the strings with 2nd & 3rd finger, neither strumming nor strictly speaking picking. I'm aware of finger picking being popular in folk as it isn't drowning out acoustically the words of the song. Unlike many other genres, the words generally have more prominence. I am not taken with the idea that finger picking is real folk and other styles not so. When I go to a Show of Hands concert, I don't berate them for not being someone else's definition.....



In earlier post, that's "rearing" not "reading."   iPad for sale. One foul mouthed user from new.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 May 14 - 06:51 AM

no conceit, just fact, there is no conceit about admitting, will fly is a better finger picker than myself.Bridge kindly go away.
Musket, in my opinion strumming can be folk, thumb picking in my opinion is folk and it is in my opinion a form of fingerpicking, it was popularised by maybelle carter, who also used hammering on.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 May 14 - 08:22 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZw6vFhHbEE, maybelle carter and earl scruggs, now that is some thumb pickingfhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZw6vFhHbEE

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 May 14 - 08:29 AM

maybelle carter, herehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENS4nD0vRKI,this style of playing works quite well for english trad in the keys of c and g .

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Stanron
Date: 15 May 14 - 10:06 AM

Nice tracks GSS. I enjoyed listening to them, and no disrespect at all but there was a lot of distance travelled to get to

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olplcsNuqyg

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 May 14 - 10:41 AM

I once had the runs with arpeggios.....that's foreign food for you!

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 15 May 14 - 11:26 AM

Good job on that Bushes and Briars, Dick.
Here in Florida it seems a lot of younger folks are picking up on a hybrid style involving strumming, picking with fingers and percussive thumps, bass and chord runs etc. some with a flat pick some without. It seems to leave a lot of room to develop a personal style. I'm kind of glomming onto it for some things. When I play them some of the styles I grew up on like Merle Travis, John Fahey etc. they're generally enthusiastic about it but unfamiliar with it.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 May 14 - 12:50 PM

stanron ,iagree that nic jones track is superb

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 15 May 14 - 11:50 PM

Hi, gillymor. I was interested to hear what's going on in Florida.

Do you know a guitarist named Richard Gilewitz from Clearwater? He is one of my favorite musicians.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 16 May 14 - 04:42 AM

Ben Walker, Laura Marling, Gren Bartley, George Frakes, Ben Folke Thomas, Jack Day, Sam Carter, Ewan D Rodgers, Ewan McLennan, Sunjay Brayne, Joe Wilkes, Sophie Jamieson, Maggie Rose, Abbey Bowden, Ethan Johns, David Broad, Michael Rossiter, Dan Raza, Jason Steel, Nancy Wallace, Mary Hampton, Nick E Harris, Chris Wolf, Luke Jackson, Alex Seel, ...

...all fingerstyle players, all under 30 I think, and that's just off the top of my head. If I gave it more thought I'd be able to think of a whole bunch more.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 May 14 - 04:54 AM

matt, i was thinking more about players that play in pubsand open mikes rather than folk clubs, i agree i should have made it clearer in my original post

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 16 May 14 - 07:33 AM

leeneia, I also like Gilewitz. I've never met him or seen him play and didn't know he was in Clearwater which is a few hours north of here. I especially like his take on the"American Primitive" style although he does a lot of things well and plays with such joy.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 16 May 14 - 07:39 AM

A previous poster mentioned "hybrid style" playing ( i.e. using a plectrum in conjunction with fingers).
So many players use that style these days that the lines between "flatpick" and fingerstyle are somewhat blurred.
I even saw some early Beatles footage where George was employing a hybrid technique.
Richard Thompson does a lot of hybrid picking, as does the wonderful Lucy Kaplansky ( I LOVE LUCY!). Indeed, Lucy, I think, plays exclusively hybrid style,
Hybrid has become my first choice style, and I would like to think that, if practised diligently, hybrid could cover everything that a pure fingerstyle and pure flatpicker could achieve.
I'm not quite at that point yet. But I am getting closer!

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 May 14 - 07:58 AM

I haven't seen ALL those singers Matt - but I have seen some of them. just because their fingers aren't actually paralysed doesn't make them an finger picker artist with something to say artistically.

check out what renbourn, jansch, mctell. martyn, spider john koerner were doing at their age and stop arguing for the sake of arguing.

face facts - its stopped happening. bloody sad but there you are.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 16 May 14 - 08:36 AM

The problem with any style is that there is only so far it can be developed before it turns into something else!
For example, it's difficult to equate the earliest New Orleans jazz style with what John Coltrane was doing.
The truth is that Bert Jansch, I would say, never said anything original after the 1960s!
In the past 20 yrs, only Clive Carroll and Al Petteway have, for me, have said anything really interesting in the area folky/celtic/acoustic fingerstyle.
Sure, there are lots of tappers and the likes but I see them as gimmicky players that don't hold my interest for long.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Stanron
Date: 16 May 14 - 09:00 AM

Some people play the music and others play the instrument. I prefer the music.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Will Fly
Date: 16 May 14 - 09:13 AM

What do you think of Pierre Bensusan, for example?

Night Song

I'm not a huge fan of what I call "airy-fairy" impressionistic guitar, but he's certainly an impressive player.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 16 May 14 - 09:17 AM

"check out what renbourn, jansch, mctell. martyn, spider john koerner were doing at their age and stop arguing for the sake of arguing."

Renbourn and Jansch were amazing guitarists, Ralph McTell and John Martyn were very very good guitarists, spider john koerner was/is a good player though I wouldn't say mind-blowingly brilliant. I like the music of all those people, though John Martyn isn't really my cup of tea. (I preferred his playing on his first two albums, before he started using FX)

I wouldn't claim that all of the people I mentioned above are on the same level as Renbourn or Jansch, but I don't think that's any different to how it was back in the 60s or 70s. . It's very easy to look at the past with rose-tinted spectacles. You've named just 5 of the top people out of thousands of guitarists and singer-songwriters that trod the boards in the folk revival.

If you're talking in pure technical terms, the playing of some of the whizzkids on the Candyrat Records label surpasses the stuff that Renbourn or Davey Graham was doing. It is totally unbelievable - stuff that beggars belief. Andy McKee, Gareth Pearson and others. I don't personally like it - it's a bit too flashy for me, and it's almost all instrumental. No soul. But without question they are playing stuff that would challenge a Renbourn or a Jansch.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: GUEST
Date: 16 May 14 - 09:35 AM

I'd say that Michael Rossiter's playing is as interesting as prime Jansch/Graham/Renbourn stuff. He's a young guy from Leeds, who made a bafflingly overlooked album called 'My Dearest Dear' in about 2008.

I'd say much the same about Jason Steel's stuff - albums like 'Baby, Wolves Abound'.

Chris Joynes' playing, particularly on his album with Stephanie Hladowskie, 'The Wild Wild Berry' is also up there with those classic 60s fingerpickers in my humble opinion

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Will Fly
Date: 16 May 14 - 09:57 AM

Mmm... just listened to Andy McKee and Gareth Pearson. No real form there, for me, once you've got past the technical brilliance - and brilliant it is. McKee in particular sounds as though it's a continuous loop of ambient music - which is maybe what he wanted. Can you whistle it five minutes after hearing it? Not that that's the ultimate test of course - but, to be honest, I'd rather have 2.5 minutes of Cliff Gallup blasting out some '50s rock'n roll behind Gene Vincent.

The first blues I ever heard was Lead Belly singing "Grasshoppers In My Pillow" - one of the most moving and simple bits of 12-string guitar playing ever. And Graham's re-working of it into "Leaving Blues", with it's amazing riffs, has far more flesh on the bone than some of the rappers and tappers of today - in my opinion, of course! :-)

As for comparing these styles with someone like Graham, it's worth remembering that, in his day, DG broke the rules, doing stuff like no-one had ever done before - which is why it still resonates today, around 50 years later. Graham wasn't a prolific composer, but the approach he took to the guitar was as revolutionary then as others are now.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Acorn4
Date: 16 May 14 - 01:25 PM

Ran across this young guitarist at Banbury last year - seems to be just a bit good both flat and fingerstyle:-


Rory Evans

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 May 14 - 02:58 PM

lets hope you're right matt and I am wrong.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 May 14 - 04:12 AM

but is the demise of finger picking in noisy open mike situations or similiar, due to bad planning by organisers, eg lack of amplification[thus the need to strum to be heard],i notice the same thing with a lot of buskers that i have come across.in my opinion we need more venues with seperate rooms where people go specifically to listen, where quiet sensitve renditons of fingerpicking can be heard

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 May 14 - 05:53 AM

nah that's not the answer GSS. you have to move with the punches, or whatever the expression is.

I have always been a fingerpicker -so I had to met this problem head on thirty years ago - when I twigged the folk music scene was on its last gasp for pro musicians. sadly I don't think running university courses to produce young musos who want eight hundred quid a night to play has done much to help things. except perhaps produce - yet another layer of society that pontificates about folk music without involving the British folk.

I played telecasters and a Rickenbacker - oh yeh -and a Gibson Chet Atkins. nowadays if I were doing pub lounges - i'd use a variax. dadgad at the press of button.

it changes the music - but hey - things change!

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 17 May 14 - 08:05 AM

Young Rory Evans has played at our open mic several times: very talented and seems a nice kid too.
RtS

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Stanron
Date: 17 May 14 - 03:14 PM

"What do you think of Pierre Bensusan, for example?

Night Song

I'm not a huge fan of what I call "airy-fairy" impressionistic guitar, but he's certainly an impressive player. "

Hi Will. If you were asking me this with regard to my 'playing the music or playing the instrument' comment then Pierre is definitely playing the music. However you can't take his playing the instrument out of the equation but the music is not suffering as a result. Some of the more modern advanced players seem to loose the music behind the technique. Maybe it's a matter of taste, maybe I'm just an old fart saying 'it was better in my day'

Pierre Bensusan had a vid of The Hesleyside Reel on UTUBE a few weeks ago. Can't find it now. I know this tune from tune sessions and he changed the key to suit the guitar. Now Pierre B is probably not going to turn up and play that tune at a tunes session but some young 'up and comer' might learn his version, try and play it at a session and get the 'frowns' for playing it in the 'wrong' key.

I'm not sure if there is any one correct inference to draw from this but you decide if it is putting the instrument before the music.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Will Fly
Date: 17 May 14 - 07:36 PM

Hi Stanron - I was actually asking Tunesmith, but your post got in the line before my reply to him! :-)

I was just genuinely curious how people feel about Bensusans playing.

I suppose that I'm old-fashioned in that I think technique is a means to an end - and a lot of very brilliant and twinkling players seems to me to use technique as an end in itself. And, as a lover of beautiful melodies which can develop or can remain simple, I'm often struggling to find good, simple melodies inside the technical brilliance.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 May 14 - 08:09 PM

TECHNIQUE SHOULD ONLY BE A MEANS TO AN END. To me that is the difference between Earl Scruggs banjo and his guitar playing, I prefer his guitar playing.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 17 May 14 - 08:18 PM

I really loved Bensusan's early stuff (so much so that I went out and bought a Lowden that I will never part with). Pres de Paris and Musiques were/are master works, IMO. Solilai had some very interesting original compositions and after that he went in a direction that didn't interest me.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: GUEST,Gibsonboy
Date: 18 May 14 - 06:10 AM

If your technique is bad your playing will be bad. Bad or incorrect technique will limit how good a player you could be, its a bit like saying I don't need to practice.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Musket
Date: 18 May 14 - 06:11 AM

Interesting that you mention the Variax Al. In larger gigs, I use a Line6 for similar reasons.

The reason I mention that is horses for courses. The Line6 is a solid body and to be honest isn't much use for finger picking. In fact the only true electric I have that I feel I can pick on as well as any acoustic is my Gretsch Electromatic.

Now... In a pub singarond, I doubt any of my electrics are of use, and I use the Rainsong for the acoustic volume. (Ironic that the LR Baggs pickup is sublime...) and if the room is quietish, I pick. if it is noisy, I get the pleccy out.

I really don't see where this discussion is going other than comparing styles in general. Saying that one is better than the other is not only subjective, but is rather narrow too.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 May 14 - 07:21 AM

it depends - the variax 700 I have two of them   they are a curse and a blessing. line6 are a weird American company -they put things into boxes basically. they seem to know sod all about their own product.

of course they are not as nice as an acoustic. I have found however that through a Fender acoutasonic amp - the audience can't tell the difference - you will - they won't.

the pluses are

great compression you need less volume - you don't need a big amp
no feedback
instant retuning
a variety of sounds - the 12 string is very impressive

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 May 14 - 07:29 AM

I have not said that technique is not necessary, I am saying it is a means to an end.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: johncharles
Date: 18 May 14 - 08:21 AM

Just watched the Pears and Britten Waly Waly. I thought it was rather good. Excellent singer and subtle varied accompaniment. Many "folksingers and fingerpickers" could learn a thing or two from this performance. Just my opinion of course.
john

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 May 14 - 08:41 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mq1dBEuyNq8&feature=youtu.be
finger picking again, and here is the original with a tradtional singer talking and making it very clear that he considers entertainment of paramount importance[jim carroll please take note]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwlOO8RG-og

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 May 14 - 10:43 AM

how would folk singers learn stylistically from a classical style rendition of a folk song, pears singing is not excellent stylistically it is awful, and brittens accompaniment is bizarre, just my opinion of course.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 May 14 - 10:46 AM

I don't think the discussion has to lead anywhere really. its nice to talk to other the guitarists. there will always be some idiot who has done nowt, and thinks he knows it all. most of us know we know nowt, compared to what there is to know.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Musket
Date: 18 May 14 - 11:38 AM

Too true Al.. Despite the variax, I only recently found that if I pick rather than strum, the output from my Rainsong OM10 is clean enough for a Cakewalk plug in to distinguish each string and give a similar effect, allowing far more samples to be used.

Granted, not much use on stage but fun in the home studio environment and as you say, we know nowt compared to what we could know.

Finding that out with double drop D tuning right now in fact....

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: johncharles
Date: 18 May 14 - 11:40 AM

"how would folk singers learn stylistically from a classical style rendition of a folk song" singing in tune would be a start for some.
john.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 18 May 14 - 12:46 PM

Of course, Pears may be technically very good, but his singing is not in the spirit of the music; indeed, classically trained singers tend to sound sterile to me, with a very self-conscious delivery.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 May 14 - 01:05 PM

john charles,singing in tune is not about style,
I have yet to come across any paid performer on the uk folk scene who sang out of tune,
furthermore I think brittens accompaniments are not stylistically correct either,in fact i think he shows a complete misunderstanding of the harmonic nature of the tune, just my opinion of course, stylistically like pears he is clueless, applying classical ideas of harmony that are to say the least inappropriate

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Stanron
Date: 18 May 14 - 01:07 PM

It's true that in folk music we generally value expression and feeling over precision and clarity and Peter Pears displays more of the latter and less of the former. Funnily enough the fact that both genres used to be unamplified is at least one thing they have in commonm. I suspect another is that the greats of both genres have both precision and expression.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: GUEST,ikeL2
Date: 18 May 14 - 01:32 PM

Hi Al

<" most of us know we know nowt, compared to what there is to know ">

How very true. As I got to play the guitar more seriously I found I knew nowt and what is more I don't know much more now if I compare it with others.

Mind you; I never tried to say I knew a lot when When I thought I did...innit?

Cheers

MikeL2

PS if you know what I am trying to say. please explain it to me....lol

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: johncharles
Date: 18 May 14 - 01:35 PM

GSS I never mentioned style you raised that one.
john

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 18 May 14 - 01:47 PM

Listen to Andreas Scholl singing a selection of English traditional songs, as part of his Vaughan Williams work.

Technically excellent, classical in style but about as much passion as a wet fish and sterile as a speyed whippet.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Nick
Date: 18 May 14 - 02:09 PM

MikeL2, this may help to explain some of it. In my limited experience it is remarkably prevalent in music circles.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Stanron
Date: 18 May 14 - 02:22 PM

Andreas Scholl , more a counter tenor then standard tenor perhaps. I don't find this offensive

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tN5PmR3_XBQ

or this,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrDdRLDaZtE

But it's not folk as we know it Jim.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: johncharles
Date: 18 May 14 - 03:26 PM

Pears and Britten recorded folk songs before the " folk revival" began. They were of their time and that time is past.
Music moves on and changes. How guitar is played and accompaniment styles similarly move on and change. The "rapping tapping" ( Will Fly)is an example of this change. We may not all like these changes but they happen anyway. None of this means that we have not or cannot learn from the past. I think Ewan McColl was nearer to Pears then to Boden in style.
I see Mumford and Son are worth £37 million. Expect a rush on guitars and banjos.
Badly written but off out playing.
john

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 18 May 14 - 04:08 PM

I don't find Scholl offensive either. I have lots of his work. The traditional folk work I refer to loses out in spirit when subjected to the technical classical approach though.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 May 14 - 04:18 PM

Ewan MacColl singing BEARS no resemblance to Peter Pears.if you think his singing is nearer to pears than boden, you need to get new ears
http://www.brightyoungfolk.com/gigs/video/jon-boden-sings-the-trees-they-do-grow-high.aspx YOUR COMMENTS ARE NOT ONLY BADLY WRITTEN BUT BADLY INFORMED.
alternatively you are tone deaf

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 May 14 - 05:29 PM

http://www.rte.ie/radio1/doconone/jazz.html

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 May 14 - 08:41 PM

I am not sure what johncharles means about pears being like Ewan. but I am willing to listen. don't be so quick to condemn.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 19 May 14 - 02:34 AM

well this discussion is veering way off topic, but I can think of plenty of instances of Ewan MacColl singing in which he employs a vibrato and an enunciation that one might describe as classical(ish).

The performances I'm thinking of are certainly closer to a classical singing teacher's conception of "correct singing" than, say, the singing of Walter Pardon or Harry Cox would be.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 May 14 - 03:19 AM

take a good listen to macColl, he does not sound more like peter pears than jon boden, all 3 are available to listen to on the net, furthermore he was not being compared to walter pardon or harry cox, the use of vibrato does not make him sound more like peter pears than boden ,or even like peter pears, the compoarison is ridiculous.
al , i am not condemning ,but giving my opinion ,which is based on listening to all 3

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Musket
Date: 19 May 14 - 04:16 AM

I guess I can refer to at least half a dozen voices McColl employed.

He always said local singers must reflect indigenous approaches, (he had a knack of rubbing people up the wrong way) but that he was a performer. Hence a Salford lad (with Scottish parents to be fair) could effect a Highlands accent, a Glaswegian one, pure Manchester or a flat accent free voice at will.

He also employed a foil to Seeger's voice when accompanying in choruses etc which was often different again.

I love listening to his voice as it employed feeling and empathy with the subject. It isn't a single voice though by any measurement.

My late friend Tom Brown had been living in North Nottinghamshire for many years and most of the time sounded so, but once on stage, he was pure Norfolk...... I tend to be more "Northern" when delivering a monologue in a folk club than when addressing students in the lecture theatre or at a conference. When I used to sing rock, I was rather transatlantic in my voice but far more South Yorkshire in a folk club etc.

Comparing voices is a bit like comparing fingerpicking to strum. Musical masturbation.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: GUEST,M
Date: 19 May 14 - 05:42 AM

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: GUEST,Tony Rath aka Tonyteach
Date: 19 May 14 - 07:46 AM

Right guitar teacher here been playing for 50 years and I teach flamenco - classical - fingerpicking and pick styles. There are a lot of strummy guitar singer songwriters out there but there are fingerpickers as well Check out my former pupil who is as good as most Monkton Wylde aka Luke Brown. I have seen fingerpickers in blues and acoustic nights and some in folk clubs over the years. The standard is no different now than it was. People like Wizz Jones - Carthy - Renbourn - Duck ~Baker - Jansch - have always been exceptional because they put the work in. In the late 60s I was blown away by a gent in Leicester called Mark Newman who never became well known and a pick player called Thaddeus Kay who was very good indeed They put the work in

A question what keeps an audience interested A good voice - a personality - good material and the ability to sustain the audience's interest over a set or two. That takes a lot and a lot of experience as well

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: GUEST,Tony Rath aka Tonyteach
Date: 19 May 14 - 07:46 AM

Right guitar teacher here been playing for 50 years and I teach flamenco - classical - fingerpicking and pick styles. There are a lot of strummy guitar singer songwriters out there but there are fingerpickers as well Check out my former pupil who is as good as most Monkton Wylde aka Luke Brown. I have seen fingerpickers in blues and acoustic nights and some in folk clubs over the years. The standard is no different now than it was. People like Wizz Jones - Carthy - Renbourn - Duck ~Baker - Jansch - have always been exceptional because they put the work in. In the late 60s I was blown away by a gent in Leicester called Mark Newman who never became well known and a pick player called Thaddeus Kay who was very good indeed They put the work in

A question what keeps an audience interested A good voice - a personality - good material and the ability to sustain the audience's interest over a set or two. That takes a lot and a lot of experience as well

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 May 14 - 07:50 AM

Mark Newman played at our local Folk Club a few years ago, and he's outstanding.
Brother of Chris, if I'm not mistaken.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: GUEST,Mark Bluemel
Date: 19 May 14 - 07:52 AM

Tunesmith said
"Hybrid has become my first choice style, and I would like to think that, if practised diligently, hybrid could cover everything that a pure fingerstyle and pure flatpicker could achieve.
I'm not quite at that point yet. But I am getting closer!"

Given that Richard Thompson still feels the need to use pure fingerstyle (with a thumbpick) for "1952 Vincent Black Lightning" - and I think we can agree his hybrid technique is exemplary - I think you're setting yourself a big mountain to climb.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Will Fly
Date: 19 May 14 - 08:40 AM

I saw Mark Newman in Leicester around 1964, when I was on placement from college.

To supplement my grant, I worked as an evening barman in the old Victoria pub on London Road, next to the YMCA - probably long gone now - where they had music several evenings a week in the upstairs bar.

Mark played an electric guitar in a blues band in those days - a good guitarist. Mexican moustache, black leather jacket... very '60s!

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 May 14 - 09:18 AM

Thaddeus was a keen amateur airman. small planes. he had a crash and died some years ago. he was a fine player. his brother George was a good fiddler -probably still is.

a bit arrogant with it - but we're all made of flesh. they were both Irish.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: GUEST
Date: 19 May 14 - 10:52 AM

Going back to the original question on this thread:

I'd agree with Tony Rath AKA Tonyteach that the standard is no different now than it was in the past....and that a few outstanding players who've stood the test of time tend to give an impression of a "golden age". Back in the 60s most youngsters were "chord bashers" too, just as now, among the chord bashers, there are still some who fingerpick, and play with sensitivity. eg:

The Little Unsaid: Beeswing

Or a slightly differnt style:

Gilmore - Roberts: Stealing Arm

Or a local 18 year old who plays around the pubs of Tunbridge Wells:

Sean De Burca: Streamline Horizon

There are loads similar, both here in Kent, where I am now, and in Devon, where I'll be tomorrow (though I understand Al whittle's recent visit to the Ax Inn open mic was on one of the more "raucous" and less musically respectful evenings....they happen sometimes!). I can think of 7-8 pretty good local fingerstyle players under 30 who turn up to the Ax Inn sessions sometimes, and about the same number in and around Tunbridge Wells.

They're just not in general playing at the same venues that we old farts frequent.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 19 May 14 - 10:54 AM

"Guest" above was me with a dead cookie.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: GUEST,MikeL2
Date: 19 May 14 - 02:45 PM

Hi Nick

Yes that's what I was trying to say...lol

Thanks

Cheers

MikeL2

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 May 14 - 04:41 PM

I don't require respect. I go to a lot of open mic type evenings. the ax doesn't stand out in my mind. so presumably I was reasonably well received.

I went with another guy - Bob Kirkpatrick of Sunray fame. I will ask him if he can remember it.

don't miss Bob at Chippenham FF this weekend. i'm doing the open mic at Eype on Friday.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 May 14 - 05:31 PM

I can remember many teenagers practising fingerpicking for hours learning angie, candy man, John Pearse started it with the help of the BBC

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 May 14 - 06:20 PM

did he? I was doing it long before he came along. my first folk club that I went to every week was the shades coffee house in Reading. 1964. the residents were Derek hall and Mike Cooper -both who could have shown Jansch an Renbourn a thing or two they'd worked at their art.

the standard of the other journeymen pickers was enough to intimidate a beginner like me, hey ....in a way that's what's missing nowadays. you had something to aim for, to aspire to.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: GUEST,Tony Rath aka Tonyteach
Date: 19 May 14 - 07:20 PM

Mark Newman was a nice guy who was friendly - pleased to hear he is sill around although he must be an oldie like me now. Thad Kaye was a bit bumptious but I am sorry to hear of his death Let us not forget the gypsy jazzers and the country players who pick very well indeed. In my part of London there are lots of South Americans so we get all the Latin guitar and there is a thriving flamenco scene in London. Check out my teacher Steve Homes who is a leading player

The Registry of Guitar Tutors has many exams for acoustic guitar at levels up to grade 8 and it is a recognised instrument now with an exam structure

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Stanron
Date: 19 May 14 - 07:32 PM

Big Al, I agree. My recollection is that John Pearce came along well after the 'main event'. When was his BBC guitar teaching series? The early 70s? Or was it earlier?

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 May 14 - 02:56 AM

hold down a chord was first broadcast in 1965 on BBC, and was a programme that taught finger picking, so JOHN pearse may not have started it but he was responsible for getting thousands of people to finger pick the guitar.well done to the BBC too, now can we cut out semantics and pedantry.
HOLD DOWN A CHORD had a big influence on aspiring guitarists as regards style, encouraging fingerpicking.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 20 May 14 - 03:35 AM

I certainly leaned to play "clawhammer style" - 1965 - from John Pearce, although his dodgy tab was a bit confusing!

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Stanron
Date: 20 May 14 - 06:02 AM

I hadn't realised it started so early. In 1965 I'd moved away from home to go to Art School. I didn't watch telly again for years. Cheers.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: GUEST,Tony Rath aka Tonyteach
Date: 20 May 14 - 06:49 AM

I remember that series He now has a range of picks and other bits so must be still involved

On Facebook I see that Jon Gomm Preston Reed - Lewis Cohen -Richard Digance and various others are touring so someone is making a living out of playing fingerstyle

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 May 14 - 06:56 AM

"I remember that series. He now has a range of picks and other bits, so must still be involved".

All John Pearse is still involved in is the Great Gig In The Sky - he died in October 2008.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 May 14 - 12:25 PM

Mark and his wife havea villa in France. every year they run guitar courses with some quite eminent guitarists. it looks really nice - apparently the weather is hot and its not too expnsive. I met Mark when we both doing a gig at faldingworth for les worral. I would have quite fancied it myself - only my wife is diabled and the facilities aren't right - too many stairs and other stuff.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: GUEST,Tony Rath aka Tonyteach
Date: 20 May 14 - 01:26 PM

I shall have to stop mentioning names as they mostly turn out to be dead.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 May 14 - 01:51 PM

Yes Tony, please don't mention my name! :-)

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: GUEST,Tony Rath aka Tonyteach
Date: 20 May 14 - 07:20 PM

Can I just mention Ed Sheeran erm no perhaps not

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 May 14 - 07:58 PM

Wilko Johnson !!!!!!!!!!


Now apart from Donovan way back in my early teens,
Wilko is the most important fingerpicker in my personal pantheon of great influential guitar heroes...

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Nick
Date: 21 May 14 - 06:28 AM

I still have my copy of the Hold Down a Chord publication from that time. I lent it to a friend last year when they were trying to get the basics. There was a 'calypso' programme if I remember. I'll have to get it out and have a polish up to check I haven't forgotten everything.

I always reckoned that Leonard Cohen might well have had a copy as most of the picking styles on Songs of Leonard Cohen were recognisable!

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 22 May 14 - 04:44 AM

I was at the Axminster Inn open mic last night. There were 11 performers. Six of these were under 25. Of these, 3 played their whole set of 4 numbers fingerstyle. One only strummed and the other two did at least one of their 4 numbers fingerstyle.

So I don't see any truth in the idea that fingerstyle is dead or dying amongst younger musicians.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 22 May 14 - 08:49 AM

There isn't.

It's just a weird excuse for someone to post a utube of himself playing.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 22 May 14 - 11:04 AM

Dave Evans was one of those chaps inspired by the Holy Trinity of Graham/Jansch/Renbourn, and mighty impressive he was too!
This performance dates back to the 70s, but is still a wondrous thing.



Stagefright? What stagefright!

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 May 14 - 04:53 AM

I PREVIOUSLY PUT UP A CLIP OF EARL SCRUGGS PLAYING CARTER STYLE HERE ARE SOME OTHER INTERSTING CLIPS USING MELODY PICKING OF A DIFFERENT KIND.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43-UUeCa6Jw http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMG_6xa0qRAhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPwYJqwUi5w I am interested in discussions on different finger picking guitar and banjo. I previously included amongst others   EARL SCRUGGS PLAYING CARTER STYLE.AND clarence ashley playing banjo finger picking
the above clips are different styles libba cotten, john hurt and etta baker, i hope you enjoy these clips as i have done

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 May 14 - 05:09 AM

etta bakers fingerpicking is in my opinion at any age ,but in her nineties outstanding, I hope i can play like that anytime let alone in my ninetieshttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPwYJqwUi5w very impressive

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 May 14 - 11:01 AM

doc watson flatpicking at 89
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvyXBPaC89c

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 21 May 15 - 05:32 AM

Refreshing this thread purely to say that there are LOADS of really good young fingerstyle guitarists out there, but very few who see the folk clubs as their natural home, which makes sense really - why would they put their efforts into getting gigs at a previous generation's social scene, when they could be playing to their peers?

I'm not convinced that being influenced by American players is a problem - many British players have been fascinated by American styles over the years, and why not? What's not to like? It works both ways - Stefan Grossman is on record talking about his love of John Renbourn's playing, for example:http://workandworry.com/2014/07/29/stefan-grossman-the-work-worry-interview-part-2/#more-4135.

Meanwhile you may want to check out some of the guitarists I have interviewed at North Country Primitive. If you want a British player, go straight to the interview with Nick Jonah Davis.

http://www.northcountryprimitive.com

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 May 15 - 06:42 AM

well nigel, all i can talk is from my own experience, only yesterday walking through the streets of darlington, i saw a young busker ,who had a good voice but was thrashing his poor guitar, in my experience there are few decent young finger picking guitarists, again and again i come across thashers, particularly young buskers, who do not need to thrash cos they are amplified.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 21 May 15 - 07:03 AM

Check out my link above, Dick. The guitarists featured so far are a mere drop in the ocean compared with what's out there. I'm hoping to do a series of Bandcamp fingerstyle samplers - the second one will be entirely British players. The hard part has been deciding who to leave off.

I hear what you're saying about your busker - I see plenty of thrashers myself (some of whom thrash very well!), but they aren't the whole story... In the UK there are players like Nick Jonah Davis, Jim Ghedi, Toby Hay, Cam Deas, dbh, Nick Castell, Piers Haslam, Steve Malley, Stephen John Hopkins, C Joynes and many more... it's a rich time right now for fans of fingerstyle.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 21 May 15 - 07:10 AM

Looking forward to your samplers, Spleen - be sure to flag it up when they go live. Good work!

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 21 May 15 - 08:05 AM

And check out the links I made above last year, Dick, too.

Also the Carrivick Sisters.

I was at an open mic at the Axminster Inn in Devon last night. There were 19 performers on between 0830 and 0030. Ages ranged from late teens to late 50s, with most people in their 20s/ 30s.

I played *one* of my songs as a simple strum, but "recruited" a young guitarist and a bass player to help me on that, and they both improvised brilliantly around my strumming, despite neither knowing the song....really fleshed it out.

Not *one* player did their full set of 3 songs strumming. All did at least one fingerstyle or hybrid song. As I said way above, and as Spleen Cringe reinforced, these youngsters are there and doing fine, but just don't choose to play in "old farts' venues" mainly.

Buskers are hardly a representative sample...most, in my recollection, have *always* thrashed!

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 21 May 15 - 09:39 AM

My compliments to you,once again, S.C. for your North Country Primitive site. Keep up the good work.
I found that wide-ranging interview you linked to with Stefan Grossman utterly fascinating. I have a lot of those Kicking Mule LP's with tab books and learned so many tunes out of them. If not for Grossman a lot of us here in the U.S. might never have heard of great European players like John James, Ton Van Bergeyk, Leo Winjkamp etc. I was sort of amused to hear that Stefan spliced and edited some of those ragtime numbers performed by Van Bergeyk and Winjkamp. I learned some of those rags and worked very hard to get all the way through them with minimal mistakes.









c

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 May 15 - 10:26 AM

Firstly you tell me that young finger pickers are not going to folk clubs then you tell me buskers are not representative, i can only talk from what i see, from my own experience , and that tells me that overall the skill of finger picking in my experience has been replace by strummers, your examples are very good , but my point is that they are a minority, are you trying to say they are a majority? I HAVE CHECKED OUT YOUR SITES AND IT DOES NOT ALTER MY OPINION THAT OVERALL IT APPEARS TO BE UNFASHIONABE.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: GUEST,Joseph Scott
Date: 21 May 15 - 11:08 AM

"I would object very strongly to English folk guitar being dismissed as some sort of tributary of American folk music." What aspects of English folk guitar would you say didn't come from American folk guitar and did come from traditional English music?

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 21 May 15 - 11:32 AM

Hi Dick, of course fingerstyle guitarists are in the minority - just as they always have been. After all it takes a lot of dedication to hone those skills and I guess a lot of people are happy to be able to bash out a few chords, which is fine if it works for them. But that's not the point I'm making, which is simply that at the moment there are a lot of good ones out there, who have clearly been listening to Basho, Fahey, Kottke, Lang, Renbourn, Jansch and so on, as well as more recent reference points like Jack Rose and Glenn Jones.

Very few of the new generation of players have anything to do with folk clubs - it probably wouldn't even occur to them. I rarely see any buskers anymore, though there is a very good fingerstyle guitarist who sometimes plays in my local precinct. Mostly it's kids doing Arctic Monkeys covers, though, bless 'em.

And who said anything about it being fashionable? Though Daniel Bachman is pretty hip at the moment: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=44ZiWkQl_bE

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: GUEST,MikeL2
Date: 21 May 15 - 11:35 AM

Hi

Today's strummers in many cases are tomorrow's finger pickers. Unless things have changed drastically since I was learning most players learned to strum first.

Strumming in itself can be very skillful if it is done properly.

I take the point that young players are not going to go to traditional folk clubs.

I help out at a local school teaching young kids to start to play guitar. Some have turned out to be fine musicians, but they don't go to folk clubs.

Why would they??

Cheers

MikeL2

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 21 May 15 - 11:38 AM

Joseph, I do believe you've hit the nail on the head. I've always (or at least ocassionally) wondered why some folks attempt so strenuously to deny this obvious truth. After all, it's a fine tradition to nick ideas from! Having said that, I guess a British take on this appropriation has developed over the years, especially as people have come to see the 60s British guitarists as the motherlode, rather than the people who inspired them. The Harry Smith Anthology is still out there, though, as a kind of aural bible...

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 May 15 - 12:12 PM

"Why would they??"
well they might learn to improve their performances from watching performers like carthy, dow, wizz jones.wilson family, vin grbutt
folk clubs are the best place in my experience to learn the art of performing, many other examples apart from those i mentioned, such as barbara dickson derek brimstone.
what a feckin stupid thing to say, or do you believe that youth has nothing to learn from older performers?@

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 May 15 - 12:26 PM

what aspects etc?
well now, english medieval music, the lute tradtion, tunes from playford, tunes such as nonsuch,these tunes were in existence at the time that america had not been colonised, however there is a reasonable strong influence of USA trad music on english finger picking ,there is also a morrocan influence, THAT DAVY GRAHAM USED SUSCH AS THE IDEA OF DADGAD.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Will Fly
Date: 21 May 15 - 12:58 PM

There's no doubt that Davy Graham started off listening to American blues and jazz guitarists as a young man - and learned a deal from English musician Steve Benbow, who's rarely mentioned these days but who was very influential on him. There's also no doubt that he absorbed a great deal of North African and Indian music in his early days, which led to the very influential DADGAD tuning and to his interesting playing style.

And, as Dick rightly points out, there is a lute tradition in English music, which had various continental influences - Spanish, French, etc. - and tunes from Playford. A great many English fingerpickers - I was one - adopted Graham's style as far as they could, but they also absorbed picking as exemplified by Merle Travis and Doc Watson. And they listened to players like John Williams and Julian Bream. John Renbourn, for example, took classical guitar lessons.

It's a real mix in the UK - from various sources.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Stanron
Date: 21 May 15 - 03:00 PM

Just to muddy the waters, (get it?) DADGAD is only open D tuning where the guitarist has forgotten to retune the G string. Lots of Blues players used open tunings, it's a 'given' for bottle neck. I knew open D and open G tunings long before I came across DADGAD, and a lot longer before I came across Playford and Dowling.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 21 May 15 - 03:11 PM

How about Elton Hayes for an English guitar player who was around before the folk scare of the sixties? It's all a long time ago but I don't remember him as someone influenced by the Americans.

Will, not wishing to pick an argument but are you sure about Steve's influence on Graham? I knew Steve quite well and worked with with him (not as a picker except at parties)) and I don't recall him doing any finger picking. That doesn't of course mean that he wasn't able to. Also as I mentioned above it was all a long time ago.

Regarding lack of finger pickers as opposed to "thrashers" among buskers, does it ever occur to you Dick that trying to attract people's attention with quiet subtle finger picking might be like flogging a dead horse among a crowd.

As you rightly say Will It's a real mix in he UK.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 May 15 - 03:40 PM

Regarding lack of finger pickers as opposed to "thrashers" among buskers, does it ever occur to you Dick that trying to attract people's attention with quiet subtle finger picking might be like flogging a dead horse among a crowd."
no the opposite, most buskers these days are amplified [sadly, in one sense]so they do not need to thrash to get volume, furthermore it is such a raity these days its bound to be a money spinner

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 22 May 15 - 05:12 AM

GSS: well they might learn to improve their performances from watching performers like carthy, dow, wizz jones.wilson family, vin grbutt
folk clubs are the best place in my experience to learn the art of performing, many other examples apart from those i mentioned, such as barbara dickson derek brimstone.

Maybe folk clubs WERE the best place to improve your performance "back in the day"....and at the time when people like the older people on here were wanting to improve their performance, the people they were looking at (Carthy, Jones etc) were only a few years older than themselves. Nowadays youngsters are also emulating other skilled youngsters just a couple of years older than themselves. They go and see the people in my examples above (Little Unsaid, Sean de Burca, Jamie Roberts etc) to improve their own skills.

My performance improvement, what there is of it, has come about mainly through "after hours" sessions at open mics. For example, the OM I mentioned above on Wednesday night "formally" went on until 0030, but in fact at least 10-12 people stayed on after the PA was switched off, jamming, learning new riffs and techniques from each other and swapping tips until at least 0200. It was still going on when I left, as I had to work in the morning, so no idea when they finally ran out of steam. Some of us get together to jam at peoples' homes. Here's one of those jams:

Anja Neil Paolo Jam

Not exactly complex finger-picking, but far from "thrashing". And very typical.


GSS: Firstly you tell me that young finger pickers are not going to folk clubs then you tell me buskers are not representative, i can only talk from what i see, from my own experience , and that tells me that overall the skill of finger picking in my experience has been replace by strummers, your examples are very good , but my point is that they are a minority, are you trying to say they are a majority? I HAVE CHECKED OUT YOUR SITES AND IT DOES NOT ALTER MY OPINION THAT OVERALL IT APPEARS TO BE UNFASHIONABE.

But what do you see and where? As I said before, MOST buskers have ALWAYS thrashed. The ones I remember in Leicester and Bradford in the early 70s certainly did. And I guess if you went to venues that were more "fashionable" than Folk Clubs, you may change your mind. Going to a Folk Club these days to find out what's fashionable is just a little out of the loop! A GOOD open mic would, I think, throw up some surprises for you. As I said, of the 19 performers on Wednesday, EVERY ONE did at least one song of his/ her 3 song set fingerstyle or hybrid picking. Well, I tell a lie....one played keyboards, one was on ukulele and one played a fiddle, so I guess that's 16 out of 16 with guitars who did some fingerstyle stuff. And where I live, in Kent, the Grey Lady Music Lounge or The Forum are the places to see young talent. The performers at the Grey Lady in particular almost all use fingerstyle when playing guitar. It's a tiny venue and "thrashing" would be OTT there.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: GUEST,MikeL2
Date: 22 May 15 - 12:18 PM

Hi Gss

"what a feckin stupid thing to say, or do you believe that youth has nothing to learn from older performers?@"

Of course I know that young people can learn from their elders. Take off those blinkers - folk clubs are not the only place where one can see good guitarists. I learned by playing in jazz clubs. I never went to a folk club until I was in mt fifties.

Most of the kids I know learn by watching on youtube and the like. Most would never go into a folk club.

Cheers

MikeL2

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 May 15 - 01:09 PM

mike , learning from you tube helps you to play it has nothing to do with learning to perform.
I am not blinkered, i hear good performers including floorsingers in folk clubs, i was talking about performing, do you onderstand [relating to an audience you cabt do that via you tube] the best way to learn how to perform has and still is folk clubs.
rob naylor, manY GUEST BOOKING folk clubs STILL ARE THE BEST WAY TO LEARN HOW TO PERFORM.
Open Mics, rely upon microphones, microphones are a barrier in the art of performing, opoen mics encourage the music to be background music, in my opinion that is the wrong approach.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: GUEST,Joseph Scott
Date: 22 May 15 - 01:27 PM

"what aspects etc?
well now, english medieval music, the lute tradtion..."

Some lute music (not the stereotypical most famous lute music sound) does sound a lot like American parlor guitar. Such as this (although it's not from England):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BOwlgNubEI

Note the I to IV to I to V to I chord progression in the first strain, a la Mississippi John Hurt and Hobart Smith, from a guy who died in the 1600s.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 May 15 - 01:43 PM

could you tell me if there is any reason why fingerpicking guitar should not be given the same respect as classical music, fasck off with open mics they treat the music as background music.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: GUEST
Date: 22 May 15 - 02:11 PM

"if there is any reason why fingerpicking guitar should not be given the same respect as classical music" Was Blind Blake as great as Sor? I guess.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: GUEST,MikeL2
Date: 22 May 15 - 02:28 PM

Hi GSS

In your opening of this thread you never mentioned PERFORMANCE.

Mind you I think that many so called "folk singers" need to learn about performance.

You were bemoaning the lack of good young finger-picking today.

I and others here believe that you are wrong on this point. They are out there. Maybe you haven't seen them in folk clubs.

IMHO Most buskers are not really interested in performance - they want to let the people know they are there.

Mike

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Will Fly
Date: 22 May 15 - 02:30 PM

Hi Hoot - I do know that Davy Graham picked up a lot of ideas from Steve Benbow from conversations I had with DG in the 60s, and I've read interviews with him in the first Graham Fanzine in which he mentions SB. But, no, I couldn't swear that it included fingerpicking - more likely just general musical influences from SB - which included visiting North Africa, for example.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 22 May 15 - 06:13 PM

Will, thanks for your reply. You may be interested to know if you don't already that someone is working on a documentary film on Davy Graham. Just a few weeks back they were in Paris visiting the locations where he used to busk back in the early sixties.
I remember Malcolm Price telling me about those times and about three guys that used to share a pad there during their busking days. Bidets were pretty well unknown to Brits at the time and Malcolm told me how one guy used the bidet to piss in, one to puke in and the other to wash is hair.
Sorry about the thread creep and getting off subject.

Dick, as has been pointed out above you have gone off at a tangent re fingerpicking / busking / electrification / performance.
I rarely visit folk clubs but have seen some very good younger guys fingerpicking. I normally attend sessions where fingerpicking is not really practical in a group of six or more which includes banjos. However I do know six players at least four of whom are very capable at fingerpicking given the right circumstances.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Will Fly
Date: 23 May 15 - 05:08 AM

Heh heh - the bidet scenario sounds like one that could have featured Alex Campbell, Derroll Adams and Jack Elliott!

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 May 15 - 06:03 AM

buskers are interested in making money, good performance means more money

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 23 May 15 - 08:12 AM

GSS:rob naylor, manY GUEST BOOKING folk clubs STILL ARE THE BEST WAY TO LEARN HOW TO PERFORM.
Open Mics, rely upon microphones, microphones are a barrier in the art of performing, opoen mics encourage the music to be background music, in my opinion that is the wrong approach.

Firstly, your initial posts were putting forward the thesis that fingerpicking was dying out among younger guitarists. Myself and others disagreed, and gave concrete examples, stating that folk clubs were perhaps not places that these younger finger-pickers frequented.

You then appeared to change tack and say that these youngsters "should" go to folk clubs as they were the "best places to learn to perform". We'll have to disagree on that....regarding the learning *from* people, I pointed out above how much learning went on at the 2 open mics I attend semi-regularly AFTER the PA was turned off, everyone else had left and those musicians who were interested swapped techniques, tips and ideas. More productive, I reckon, than watching Carthy or whoever and trying to see what they're doing from the back of a crowded room.

There are many other places than open mics where youngsters can hone their skills. As I pointed out above, in Tunbridge Wells there's the Grey Lady Music Lounge, and The Forum, both of which showcase young talent to mainly respectful audiences. There's also the Trinity Theatre which showcases during spring and summer many of the artistes who play at the "Local & Live" festival at the end of August. I reckon local musicians will learn to perform in these venues more easily, and to more enthusiastic audiences mainly their own age (myself and a few others excepted!) than they would in folk clubs.

You sound remarkably like my dad did in the 60s when he dismissed all then "modern" music as noise, and disparaged the musicianship of youngsters....at a time when the Carthys, Grahams, Joneses etc of our generation ( not to mention the Claptons, Pages etc) were getting to the tops of their forms.

To summarise: fingerpicking is certainly not dying out. It's alive and well, but going on in places that you don't frequent. Youngsters are learning to perform in a variety of venues, some against background noise (though you can hear a pin drop at the Ax Open Mic when a performer "grabs" the audience) and some where the audience's default mode is quiet. Not many of them are doing this at folk clubs, which they don't seem to find very relevant. Which is probably as it should be. In the 60s folk clubs were part of the cutting edge of youth culture. Now they're not.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 May 15 - 08:33 AM

I have not disparaged any young people, in fact there are some very good young performers in folk clubs, that you are missing out on.
I would like to see buskers using the skill of finger picking thy do not need to thrash if they have amplification.
I would like to see more good finger pickers in folk clubs too, that does not mean that i am saying there are not good young performers in folk clubs, there are.
now old man with your blinkered attitudes about folk clubs ,do you finally understand what i am saying?

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Will Fly
Date: 23 May 15 - 08:35 AM

Very true, Rob - I couldn't agree more. At the risk of a little thread drift, I would say that if you want to really test out and improve your performance skills, spend a few years playing in British Legions, Trades & Labour Clubs, Working Mens' Clubs, etc. These places are, on the whole, far more demanding than folk clubs, and you don't necessarily have to be the greatest musician or singer in the world to entertain people.

It's a different ball game and a different world. One thing I do know - if you don't entertain the customers in these places, you'll get told so in no uncertain terms, and you won't get asked back! Which doesn't mean you have to pander musically to the lowest common denominator - but you have to be up front and professional in what you do.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Will Fly
Date: 23 May 15 - 08:41 AM

Dick, with respect, you're missing Rob's point.

You're saying quite firmly (and I quote you) that: "folk clubs are still the best way to learn how to perform."

He disagrees with that statement, and so do I. Folk clubs are indeed excellent places to learn how to perform, and certainly fulfilled that role in the much more critical '60s and '70s folk scene. But they are now only one of many musical platforms where performers young and old can test out their skills.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: GUEST,MikeL2
Date: 23 May 15 - 09:35 AM

Hi

Wot Will said !!!

Cheers

Mike

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 May 15 - 11:13 AM

Yep, absolutely spot-on Will. 👍

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 May 15 - 12:27 PM

But they are now only one of many musical platforms where performers young and old can test out their skills."
quantity does not necessarily equate with quality, in my opinion folk clubs are still the BEST of all the places available,Unlike working mens clubs they are essentially sympathetic not discouraging, and unlike open mics they are about not treating the music as background music, folk clubs are in my opinion the best places to learn how to perform., that is my point do you understand?

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 May 15 - 01:36 PM

Furthermore I do not just play in uk folk clubs, I live in Ireland and my experience of performing includes irish pubs,and irish singers clubs, I am used to playing performing in different situations, in other words i have differing performance experience.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Will Fly
Date: 23 May 15 - 07:11 PM

Of course I understand, Dick - I just don't agree with you about the relative place of folk clubs in the hierarchy of places to play.

We just have to agree to differ - nothing wrong with that.

I'll just make one more point about increasing playing skills. As far as I'm concerned, playing with other musicians - preferably those better than oneself, whether in private or in public - is a great way to up your game. As a young guitarist I learned so much from playing and jamming with people who were so much better than me, and learned an enormous amount from them - at parties, in each other's houses, in pubs, etc..

That's one of the best ways to improve - sit with good performers, listen to and look at what they do, and take in as much as you can.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: GUEST,MikeL2
Date: 24 May 15 - 02:18 PM

Hi

Will "< one of the best ways to improve - sit with good performers, listen to and look at what they do, and take in as much as you can. >"

I agree entirely. I originally, after a few lessons learned to play by myself. I learned from books, radio ( no TV then- for me anyway).

Then I met up with some guys who could really play and it opened my eyes. Luckily for me some of them were both helpful and patient. My playing came on in leaps and bounds. One of the best bits of help I got was how to practice properly.

This made me much more confident and with confidence my peformance improve also. This encouraged me to play in pubs,clubs etc as often as I could and of course this is how you learn to perform.

Cheers

Mike

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 May 15 - 02:44 PM

My experience too - playing with, and studying and learning the styles and techniques of others, and also playing different types of music, not just folk.

I learned my performing skills as a young man, playing in pop bands around the WMCs and Miners' Welfare clubs of Lincs/Notts/Yorks/Leics/Lancs in the late '60s and 70s. You had to be highly professional and put on a top-class show in many of those places, if you didn't come up to the expected standard you were told in no uncertain terms, and had money docked (sometimes all of it!).

By the time I came to folk clubs in the late '80s, I knew all about how to perform a song, how to sell it to the audience, the importance of eye-contact, how to introduce songs etc.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: GUEST,Desi C
Date: 25 May 15 - 11:12 AM

That and amost all using the awful open tuning strum eveything method. Ok it's an easy way to play, but shows no imaginated or skill, just a constant mind numbingly boring sawing sound, dreadful!

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Leadfingers
Date: 25 May 15 - 04:13 PM

Having (Last weekend) spent some time at the South Hill Park (Bracknell - UK) Guitar festival
apart from the Concert and PROPER workshop stuff , most of the 'performers' at the 'Free On The Terrace' session were definitely thrashers ! One or two decent players , but most of them were of NO interest to me at all ! Sad , really .

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 15 Mar 16 - 03:01 PM

Two young British fingerstyle guitarists. Rather good, I hope you'll agree:

Jim Ghedi and Toby Hay

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Mar 16 - 03:30 PM

an interesting video, nigel spencer,it is of particular interest to me how they differ in the placement of the right hand one rests on the guitar the other does not.
personally i prefer not to rest my hand on the guitar.
yes, they are both very good finger pickers, but what does that prove. the day before yesterday i was in falmouth[between gigs] and there was a busker that would have been better if he had done some finger picking like jim and toby

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Will Fly
Date: 15 Mar 16 - 03:49 PM

Dick - your opening post to this thread:

IS this skill dying out amongst young guitarists, just lately I keep coming across plectrum thrashing guitarists, they cannot seem to flatpick properly either, am i just unlucky?have others experienced this phenomenon.

Presumably the answer to your question if "no" if you like the video - or "yes" if you prefer the busker...

Personally, I think the art of fingerpicking is still strong, and judging from the number of requests for my tablatures that I get from guitarists all over the world, people are still keen to learn the skill.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 15 Mar 16 - 05:32 PM

Imaginary 'like' button deployed, Mr Fly.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 15 Mar 16 - 05:34 PM

I believe one reason younger players aren't drawn to fingerpicking is the huge popularity of dreadnaught guitars. Bigger is better, right? A small guitar costs as much as a big one, so get the most bang for your buck with the bigger one. And anyway, small guitars are meant for little kids to learn on. Big kids have big guitars. Or so it seems that's how the novice guitarist's mind works.

But, as a general rule, dreads don't lend themselves as easily to fingerstyle playing as do their smaller-bodied relatives. Their bodies are uncomfortable to hold, their necks are usually a bit narrow, and they're usually not well-voiced for fingerpicking.

Of course, I'm speaking in general terms here. I saw Doc Watson perform numerous times and he certainly never changed guitars for fingerpicking. And there's doubtlessly some 15-year-old protégé somewhere fingerpicking the hell out of a Martin D-28. But those are exceptions to a very general rule. Most dreadnaught players play with a flatpick because that's what they're made for.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Will Fly
Date: 15 Mar 16 - 05:39 PM

That's possibly true in the US - not so sure about over here in the UK. I would never buy a dreadnaught personally because I dislike the body shape - and I like to play with both fingers and picks.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Mar 16 - 03:45 AM

I have a Lowden O-25, Martin D-18 and HD-28V, and a Martin OM-28M. I fingerpick them all, and I strum them all. The playing style depends not on the guitar I'm playing, but on what playing style the song I'm playing requires.

The size of a guitar isn't a limiting factor with regard to playing-style, IMHO.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 16 Mar 16 - 04:17 AM

Hi Dick, not trying to prove anything, by the way. I just thought a thread about fingerstyle was as good as any a place to share the video. Glad you liked it.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: matt milton
Date: 16 Mar 16 - 04:21 AM

Plus there's the fact that the more technically ambitious guitar-playing kids who would previously have been into fingerstyle are really into all the tapping and knocking stuff - what's called "percussive fingerstyle". Can't stand it myself - if you want to play percussion, buy yourself some congas! it's a gimmick that's become institutionalised.

Here's some nice slide 'n' fingerstyle from Leeds' one and only young Woody-Guthrie-loving skateboarder Serious Sam Barrett to remind me how it's done properly. I think he's playing a 12-string Stella:

Serious Sam Barrett playing blues in a Leeds barbershop

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 16 Mar 16 - 04:42 AM

Tell me about it Matt. I can't stand it either. Get a bodhran!

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: Will Fly
Date: 16 Mar 16 - 06:46 AM

Nor me much - it's clever, but players seem more concerned with technique than content.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Mar 16 - 10:30 AM

i prefer not to rest right hand on the guitar, this enables the playerto alter tone by moving right hand to different position up towards the nut or down towards the bridge.

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: GUEST,Richard Bridge on the Intel Quad Core
Date: 21 Mar 16 - 06:33 PM

I recently went to the Croydon Craft Beer festival, and part of the critique I sent to the organisers afterwards read: -

"The sound system was potentially magnificent, a good quality Yamaha desk and ElectroVoice front of house, but at least to start with the sound quality was abysmal, very scratchy, far too much presence in the high-mid. Sibilants were "essey" and splashy, and voice not followable.

This certainly did not help the solo singer on first after we arrived (a man with a funny haircut and I think it was a perfectly decent Takamine guitar). He appeared to do some original songs - but because of the sound setup words were all but inaudible and the vocals unmelodic although I think he would probably have been a perfectly OK singer with a little help. Then he went on to ageing pop covers, where he was adequate vocally but his guitar work was exactly as I have seen widely criticised on some music sites I frequent - basic strumming. He hit every chord, and the chord changes were fine, but there was no light and shade and no infill, and again his guitar work was done no favours whatsoever by the splashy sound. I know how well most Takamines plug in and surely it need not have sounded like that."

Subject: RE: fingerpicking guitar
From: gillymor
Date: 21 Mar 16 - 09:38 PM

I'm not a fan of tapping and have never tried it but I enjoy this piece.