de velera ireland and banning of jazz

Subject: de velera ireland and banning of jazz
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 May 14 - 05:27 PM

http://www.rte.ie/radio1/doconone/jazz.html

Subject: RE: de velera ireland and banning of jazz
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 May 14 - 05:30 PM

all the fault of the bolsheviks

Subject: RE: de velera ireland and banning of jazz
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 18 May 14 - 05:54 PM

This is good.

You serve much better as a German soldier than an avian captain.

Sincerly,
Gargoyle

semper ubi, sub ubi.

Subject: RE: de velera ireland and banning of jazz
From: GUEST
Date: 19 May 14 - 05:17 AM

?

Subject: RE: de velera ireland and banning of jazz
From: GUEST,mayomick
Date: 19 May 14 - 07:58 AM

anti-Dev propaganda

Subject: RE: de velera ireland and banning of jazz
From: GUEST,Triplane
Date: 19 May 14 - 08:04 AM

Did this mean that at the time fiddlers had tacit approval of both the church and state?

Just a thought

Subject: RE: de velera ireland and banning of jazz
From: GUEST,mayomick
Date: 19 May 14 - 08:16 AM

The Blue Shirts hate "the Divil Leary" to this day - but really it's for the sins of their own fathers .

Subject: RE: de velera ireland and banning of jazz
From: GUEST,Triplane
Date: 19 May 14 - 08:25 AM

Blueshirts

Subject: RE: de velera ireland and banning of jazz
From: GUEST,mayomick
Date: 19 May 14 - 08:26 AM

Triplane rushes in elbows nudging behind GSS' propaganda .

Subject: RE: de velera ireland and banning of jazz
From: GUEST,mayomick
Date: 19 May 14 - 08:34 AM

the blue shirts just can't stop picking at old scabs

Subject: RE: de velera ireland and banning of jazz
From: GUEST,Triplane
Date: 19 May 14 - 08:42 AM

On the subject of the thread, jazz was frowned on by many countries as something "new" and something to be wary of.
Not sticking to the written music was considered wrong and libertarian

I have read up EDV and i am neither a supporter nor detractor. Like many politicians he did what he thought neccesary at the time for the people who elected him and his party's continuance in power, like any good politician. I have yet to hear of a politician who could please all of the people all of the time.

Subject: RE: de velera ireland and banning of jazz
From: GUEST,LK867
Date: 19 May 14 - 08:45 AM

de Valera gave discreet support to Britain in a number of ways. The Irish government supplied weather reports directly to the War Office that proved valuable to the Allies. 

British aircraft were allowed to fly from bases Lough Erne in County Fermanagh across Donegal to the Atlantic. This twenty mile strip, the Donegal Corridor, was used by aircraft searching for German surface ships and U-boats. Further north, aircraft from bases in Derry were also permitted to fly over Donegal. 

Allied aircrew who crash-landed in Irish territory were allowed to return across the border, German airmen who crash landed in Ireland were held in the Curragh internment camp.  

Irish citizens who wished to join the British forces were allowed to leave the country to do so. In the course of the war, some 80,000 men and women from neutral Ireland served in British uniform across the globe.  

Subject: RE: de velera ireland and banning of jazz
From: GUEST,mayomick
Date: 19 May 14 - 08:54 AM

Your mammies and daddies used to call opponents of their blue shirt and black shirt brigades "the bolshie boys" ; for your mammies and daddies De Valera was the devil incarnate "the Divil Leary". Seventy years on,you just can't let it go and move on . Oh well .

Subject: RE: de velera ireland and banning of jazz
From: GUEST,Triplane
Date: 19 May 14 - 08:59 AM

EDV was a "politician" doing his best for his country's interests as he and his colleagues saw fit at the time .
Sitting on the fence is an art form practised by all politicians.
The value of their actions in the long and short term will be debated for centuries. Their right and wrong doings will be viewed from all angles and stances and different conclusions drawn.

Interesting to read all the differing points of view and watching the debate developping.

Subject: RE: de velera ireland and banning of jazz
From: GUEST,mayomick
Date: 19 May 14 - 09:49 AM

Triplane - the OP piece is just a link to a piece of RTe political propaganda ,which has given GSS the chance to come in with a bit of fun on a mudcat music thread. It really has very little to do with an appreciation of either jazz or Irish traditional music - it has about as much to do with music as the chair does in a game of musical chairs. So to join in the fun and games:

The Blueshirts , Blackshirts, Brownshirts etc were all part of the same extreme right-wing thirties phenomenon. The ideological sons and daughters of that breed of fascists hate the Divil Leary because he didn't get along with the Blueshirts and banned them from marching .

Subject: RE: de velera ireland and banning of jazz
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 May 14 - 09:50 AM

de velera was tactically inept.he engagedin a trade war with england he could not win.Perhaps the most controversial episode of De Valera's epic career took place in 1945 when – in light of Ireland's neutrality and independent foreign policy during the just-completed Second World War – he, as prime minister, extended his condolences to the vanquished German people over the death of Nazi dictator and architect of the Holocaust Adolf Hitler.

On May 2, 1945, just two days after Hitler and his consort Eva Braun committed suicide in their Berlin bunker, De Valera, who also served as foreign minister, and his aide, Secretary of External Affairs Joseph Walshe, visited the German Embassy in Dublin to sign a book of condolences for the departed Fuhrer. They also met with the top German envoy to Ireland, Eduard Hempel. Irish envoys in other nations did likewise, including Leopold Kerney in Spain, who called on the German Embassy in Madrid to express his condolences.
Iam not a supporter of the blueshirts or of FIANNA FAIL

Subject: RE: de velera ireland and banning of jazz
From: GUEST,Triplane
Date: 19 May 14 - 10:12 AM

GSS
Very unfortunate but.... In retrospect, do u think he was "Reading the Dots of establised protocol to the remaining German People" rather than playing his personalised variations (ad Lib)

Subject: RE: de velera ireland and banning of jazz
From: GUEST,mayomick
Date: 19 May 14 - 10:17 AM

LOL GSS . You lot should have a sign . Danger : Essential work being carried out on behalf of the Ministry of Lies .

Subject: RE: de velera ireland and banning of jazz
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 May 14 - 10:25 AM

it is not lies,open your ears.

Subject: RE: de velera ireland and banning of jazz
From: GUEST,mayomick
Date: 19 May 14 - 10:29 AM

Every time I read the sort of propaganda that the likes of GSS comes out with in defence of the British Empire , I want sign a book of condolences for the dearly departed truth .

Subject: RE: de velera ireland and banning of jazz
From: GUEST,mayomick
Date: 19 May 14 - 10:41 AM

GSS , without looking it up on wikiquote,who said the following?  "Propaganda should be popular, not intellectually pleasing. It is not the task of propaganda to discover intellectual truths. "

Subject: RE: de velera ireland and banning of jazz
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 May 14 - 11:13 AM

mayo mick, try listening to the rte radio programme, it has nothing to do with the british empire, if you listen to the program you will find the main mover behind the banning of jazz was a priest, de velera gave minor support , you clearly have not listened to the radio program you are just making yourself look foolish. i am a supporter of sinn fein ,you are way off the mark with your infantile postings

Subject: RE: de velera ireland and banning of jazz
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 May 14 - 11:13 AM

Back to the Irish dancehall
a context
Jim Carroll

IRISH HIERARCHY'S STATEMENT ON DANCING (1925)
The Irish hierarchy issued the following statement in 1925 at their October meeting in St. Patrick's College, Maynooth:
We have a word of entreaty, advice and instruction, to speak to our flocks on a very grave subject. There is danger of losing the name which the chivalrous honour of Irish boys and the Christian reserve of Irish maidens had won for Ireland. If our people part with the character that gave rise to that name, we lose with it much of our national strength, and still more of the high rank we have held in the Kingdom of Christ.
Purity is strength, and purity and faith go together. Both virtues are in danger these times, but purity is more directly assailed than faith. The danger comes from pictures and papers and drink. It comes more from the keeping of improper company than from any other cause; and there is no worse fomenter of this great evil than the dancing hall.
We know too well the fruit of these halls all over the country. It is nothing new, alas, to find Irish girls now and then brought to shame, and retiring to the refuge of institutions or the dens of great cities. But dancing halls, more especially, in the general uncontrol of recent years, have deplorably aggravated the ruin of virtue due to ordinary human weakness. They have brought many a good, innocent girl into sin, shame and scandal, and set her unwary feet on the road that leads to perdition.
Given a few frivolous young people in a locality and a few careless parents, and the agents of the wicked one will come there to do the rest, once a dance is announced without proper control. They may lower or destroy the moral tone of the whole countryside.
Action has to be taken while the character of the people as a whole is still sound to stop the dangerous laxity that has been creeping into town and country.
Amusement is legitimate, though some of our people are overgiven to play. What, however, we condemn is sin and the dangerous occasions of sin. Wherever these exist, amusement is not legitimate. It does not deserve the name of amusement among Christians. It is the sport of the evil spirit for those who have no true self-respect.
The occasions of sin and sin itself are the attendants of night dances in particular. There may be and are exceptions, but they are comparatively few.
To say nothing of the special danger of drink, imported dances of an evil kind, the surroundings of the dancing hall, withdrawal from the hall for intervals, and the dark ways home have been the destruction of virtue in every part of Ireland.
The dancing of dubious dances on Sunday, more particularly by persons dazed with drink, amounts to woeful desecration of the Lord's Day wherever it takes place.
Against such abuses, duty to God and love of our people compel us to speak out. And what we have to say each for his own diocese, is that we altogether condemn the dangerous occasions, the snares, the unchristian practices to which we have referred.
Very earnestly do we trust that it may not be necessary for us to go further.
Our young people can have plenty of worthy dancing with proper supervision, and return home at a reasonable hour. Only in special circumstances under most careful control, are all-night dances permissible.
It is no small commendation of Irish dances that they cannot be danced for long hours. That, however, is not their chief merit, and while it is no part of our business to condemn any decent dance, Irish dances are not to be put out of the place, that is their due, in any educational establishment under our care. They may not be the fashion in London or Paris. They should be the fashion in Ireland. Irish dances do not make degenerates.
We well know how so many of our people have of late been awaiting such a declaration as we now issue. Until otherwise arranged it is to be read at the principal Mass on the first Sunday of each Quarter of the Ecclesiastical Year. The priests will confer with responsible parishioners as regards the means by which it will be fully carried into effect. 'And may the God of Peace Himself sanctify you in all things, that your whole spirit and soul and body may be blameless in the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.' (Thess. v. 23).
Given at Maynooth on 6th October, 1925.
Signed on behalf of the archbishops and bishops of Ireland.

Chairman —
+PATRICK O'DONNELL,
Archbishop of Armagh,
Primate of All Ireland.
Secretaries —
+ROBERT BROWNE,
Bishop of Cloyne.
+THOMAS O'DOHERTY,
Bishop of Galway.

Subject: RE: de velera ireland and banning of jazz
From: GUEST,LK867
Date: 19 May 14 - 12:43 PM

Eamon de Valera would have had much in common with the British Sinn Fein of today.
Papers recently released show he covertly co-operated with Britain to crush the IRA.

The papers reveal that De Valera, whose entire cabinet in the late 1930s were former IRA members, asked London to help smear the organisation's chief of staff as a communist agent.

Tensions came to a head when the IRA began a campaign in England in early 1939.
De Valera's government regarded IRA attacks against Britain as a threat to the Irish state itself.

With war looking likely, De Valera was determined that Ireland should remain neutral.
He knew that a hard rump of Republicans would never countenance being allied to the "old enemy" Britain, and such an alliance could push Ireland into another bloody civil war. But he also knew that, if his country was seen as a threat, London might decide to invade.

It seems hard to believe that this was the same militant Republican who had been at the forefront of the Easter Rising against British rule in 1916.

After becoming prime minister of the Irish Free State, he outlawed the IRA in 1936, and his commitment to pursuing Irish unification by constitutional means led him to part company with many of his former comrades-in-arms, much like the Whitehall puppets of McGuinness and Adams today.

Yet few would have guessed that he would soon be accepting British help to crush them.
Fear of 'martyrs' In 1939, as the documents show, De Valera's government asked for assistance from London in smearing IRA chief of staff Sean Russell as a communist agent:

"It is believed that some 10 or 12 years ago, he was in Soviet pay as an agitator; If there is any information which could be made available to show that this was the case, or that at the present time he is in receipt of pay from foreign sources, it would be of the greatest possible assistance to the Dublin authorities in dealing with him since it would practically eliminate the risk of him being treated as a patriotic martyr…."

Dublin also called on London to consult them on sentences imposed on IRA members convicted of the bombings in Britain.

De Valera was worried that those executed at British hands might become martyrs at home. But he had no such qualms over those convicted of bombings in Ireland.
In fact, De Valera's government executed more IRA members than Britain and even borrowed the UK's most famous executioner, Albert Pierrepoint, to hang one of them.


During the war, Dublin went on to intern more than 1,500 IRA suspects, and several died while on hunger strike in Irish jails.


What, one wonders, might the consequences have been for Eamon de Valera, had his people known then what has come out now? "

Some in Ireland may well have suspected at that time that their government was secretly co-operating closely with Britain, a country many still considered their enemy.

Yet only now can such suspicions be confirmed. What, one wonders, might the consequences have been for Eamon de Valera, had his people known then what has come out now?

Donnacha Obeachain who is a lecturer in Politics at Dublin City University and the author of a book on Fianna Fail and Irish Republicanism said,

"It certainly would have undermined De Valera's image of being the pristine Republican leader who had heroically and unstintingly challenged the British. I think it would have been difficult for him to present that image, and it's something that he treasured.
"The publicity of such co-operation would be very detrimental to De Valera's image and therefore his electoral prospects."

Strange how history repeats itself.

Subject: RE: de velera ireland and banning of jazz
From: mayomick
Date: 09 Jun 14 - 09:51 AM

"..it would be of the greatest possible assistance to the Dublin authorities in dealing with him since it would practically eliminate the risk of him being treated as a patriotic martyr…."

That's interesting seeing as Russell didn't die until 1940 ,a year after the letter is dated .It wouldn't actually have been a smear had the information about him being a communist agent been accurate. It's strange that he is now reviled for being a fascist in the same media that demonized him as a communist in the thirties .Russell was neither a fascist nor a communist.