Eliza Carthy MBE

Subject: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 14 Jun 14 - 01:43 PM

Congratulations to Eliza Carthy on the award of the MBE in today's Queen's Birthday Honours list. That's one each now for mum, dad and daughter!
Derek

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: Stu
Date: 14 Jun 14 - 02:42 PM

Congrats indeed!

Also to the wonderful Cerys Matthews.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: Little Robyn
Date: 14 Jun 14 - 08:03 PM

Wow. Congratulations!
Robyn in NZ

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: Leadfingers
Date: 14 Jun 14 - 08:20 PM

At this rate , Folk Music will be acceptable in my lietime !

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: Wheatman
Date: 15 Jun 14 - 04:09 AM

Well on the way now, congrats Brian Kell BEM

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jun 14 - 04:14 AM

Did her dad ever get one?

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Jun 14 - 04:18 AM

Yes -- I think both her parents are MBE. Martin most certainly is.

~M~

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: GUEST,big al whittle
Date: 15 Jun 14 - 06:56 AM

funny old business....i wonder if the queen knows anything about folk music. she didn't know who brian may was. i suppose when you get that old just breathing in and out is an achievement.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: GUEST,George Frampton
Date: 15 Jun 14 - 08:32 AM

Any congratulations from Flirby and myself. If Eliza cares to dip her head into The Volunteer at Sidmouth, I'm sure she'll be duly honoured by us all of there as well!

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jun 14 - 09:00 AM

i suppose when you get that old just breathing in and out is an achievement.
Just like most folkies these days

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: GUEST,michaelr
Date: 15 Jun 14 - 12:14 PM

Question from the US: Is this bestowment still considered an honor, or even a big deal? Who cares about it?

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jun 14 - 12:45 PM

"Who cares about it?"

Most likely her Management agency & publicists ???

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: GUEST,Growler
Date: 15 Jun 14 - 02:37 PM

Well earned

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Jun 14 - 02:45 PM

michaelr: recipients are always sounded out by confidential mail first to ensure the award would be welcome to them. Quite a number do not accept. Presumably it means something to those that do, or they wouldn't. Evelyn Waugh the great 20C novelist turned down the CBE (Commander of the Order of the Bath) because he felt he should have been offered a knighthood ~~ "I prefer to wait until I shall have won my spurs," he replied to the letter from the Office of Her Majesty's Private Secretary, Awards Division - or whoever it was...

Eliza's MBE, BTW, for any who may not know, stands for her being a Member of that Order. There is also an OBE status in between the two -- Officer of...

~M~

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Jun 14 - 02:46 PM

Sorry -=- Order of the British Empire, not the Bath. Apologies -- I wasn't thinking!.

~M~

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 15 Jun 14 - 03:01 PM

The vast majority of people like the honours system. It was revamped a few years ago as it was getting a bit stale.

The principle of not looking for it and knowing that your worth has been through a process of nomination, consideration and short listing is a simple, no strings attached acknowledgment of good selfless deeds , public service or tireless serving your community.

There are high profile awards and whilst these attract debate, they enhance the association when a carer stands in line next to a famous person to collect their gong.

I tend to be bemused however by the hierarchical aspects and to be honest, that needs further attention. I am also always ready to slowly shake my head at the chippy spartists, trying to make you feel ashamed if something nice happening to you.

The most republican thinking of people still like the recognition. Our NUM branch secretary back in the late '70s was proud of his BEM. The stick he got from angry armchair socialists was disgusting to witness.

Fuck 'em. I am one of hundreds of thousands living with a gong, and my only regret is that my parents weren't alive to accompany me to Buckingham Palace. That said, mine was for services to healthcare and I cannot even dream of comparing myself with some of the unsung heros at the sharp end. Sadly, I deal mainly with the ones who let people down.

Eliza 's gong and that of her family fellow gongs show that someone somewhere wanted them to get recognition for their contribution to the arts and a sceptical thorough committee in government agreed.

Well done Eliza.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: Mr Red
Date: 15 Jun 14 - 04:30 PM

"
Question from the US: Is this bestowment still considered an honor, or even a big deal? Who cares about it? "

Angelina Jolie thinks highly of her Honorary Honour. For services to her "Anti-Rape Around the World" work.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Jun 14 - 06:54 PM

I think you miss the point musket.

all these people would rather meet big bill broonzy than the queen.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 12:23 AM

anyway well done!

you ought to get a title really. Lady Eliza Carthy....that sounds really good.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 01:32 AM

Aye , but funnily enough, the queen might like to meet them. Or, as in my case, her jug eared son. (Playing to the crowd, I meant HRH.)

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 02:02 AM

Getting to meet the Queen is not the reward. The appreciation of a larger society is.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 02:58 AM

"Lady Eliza Carthy" could only be her title if she were the daughter of a duke, marquess, or earl; which she is not. To get a title, she would have to have her MBE raided to a DBE, when she would become "Dame Eliza Carthy". Or else get a life peerage, which would make her "Lady Carthy" or "Baroness Carthy" (of Somewhere-or-Other). Might happen eventually; she is quite young, after all.

~M~

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: Howard Jones
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 04:56 AM

In reply to michealr, yes it is an honour and it does mean something. It is official recognition by the state of an individual's exceptional achievements and contribution to society. Most countries have something similar, including the US which has a long list of civilian honours.

It is often seen not just as recognition of the individual but of the activity in which they are involved. Awards such as those to Shirley Collins, Martin and Norma, and now Eliza Carthy can be regarded as recognition of the field in which they work as well as their individual contributions.

The nomenclature with all its references to a long-gone Empire is somewhat out of date, but change happens slowly here. Some people confuse it with the class system, and some object to the connection with the monarchy, although formally they are awarded by the Queen on the recommendation of the Prime Minister who in turn is advised by the Honours Committee

The system has been opened up in recent years and anyone can nominate someone for an honour.

https://www.gov.uk/honours/overview

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 05:54 AM

MGM: Eliza could become Lady Eliza Carthy (strictly, Lady Carthy) if she married a knight, or married someone who became a knight ... but then, of course, she would perhaps have to take his surname to be able to use the title. (I wonder if the Honours committee have thought about the titles given to the married partners of same sex couples when one partner gets a knighthood...). I digress...
Anyway, first, Eliza, catch your knight!!! :-)
Derek

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 06:59 AM

No, Derek! ~~ she would not be correctly styled so in that case. She would be Lady Whateverhisnamewas. Even if he was also coincidentally called Carthy, she would, as you yourself point out, be "Lady Carthy" -- tho idiomatically she might be mentioned as "Lady (Eliza) Carthy" in contexts where necessary to differentiate her from some other knight's wife whose name also happened to be Carthy.

I repeat ~~ The only person correctly styled "Lady Forename Surname" is the daughter of a duke, marquess, or earl.

~M~

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: r.padgett
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 07:15 AM

O right well nice one and all the best to Liza Carthy

Ray

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 08:44 AM

what if they made Martin a duke ?
they might do that.

what about Julian fellowes of downton abbey fame. they made him lord fellowes of west Stafford.

he could be lord carthy of Yorkshire. perhaps the queen could make him an equerry - and he could clean up the horse shit.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: GUEST,John Foxen
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 10:43 AM

The honours system confuses most English people, even folkies who often announce they will sing Lord Franklin.
He wasn't a lord although his wife was Lady Franklin. He was but Sir John Franklin.
As for Eliza's MBE - all well and good if she wants it.
But Roy Bailey sings just as well even though he sent his back.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 10:53 AM

What do you mean "sent his back"? Didn't think he had ever received one. If you mean he was offered one and declined, why not say so?

How well he sings is beside the point. Eliza & Martin & Norma & Shirley weren't honoured just for singing well, you know.

Have often wondered why the folk conferred a peerage on Sir John Franklin; but that's the folk process for you.

~M~

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: GUEST,Horny Codger
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 11:07 AM

.. so what's the old feudal title that confers the right to deflower all local virgins on their wedding night;
and how would one aquire it ???

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 11:15 AM

You would have to be a character in a play by Beaumarchis turned into an opera by Mozart, Codger. It is probable that such a right never in fact existed in real history. Wikipedia says "According to the most known variant, it was an alleged legal right allowing the lord of a medieval estate to take the virginity of his serfs' maiden daughters.
There is little evidence, however, that the alleged rights ever actually existed, much less that they were ever exercised". {entry under heading Droit du seigneur}

~M~

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: Musket
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 12:05 PM

Just about every traditional song in my repertoire has the randy old bugger exercising his right.

Or his wife exercising her right ish...




Sometimes with seven gypsies.





Good job they didn't have Facebook really. Let alone YouTube.



Back to the honours system.. It plays second fiddle to academic achievement you'll be pleased to hear. Many a Prof. Sir or Prof. Dame, but never Sir Prof. Etc.

However, it does knock Dr out of the arena, as does Prof.

Perhaps best to be offered a suffix gong such as OBE, CBE etc just to be safe if you are clever.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 03:54 PM

I dunno - princess di never bragged about her 4 o levels

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 05:36 PM

MGM: if you read my message again, it made the point you stated at 6.59am. My message was an attempt at lightheartedness....

Roy Bailey was given an MBE but returned it in protest at Blair's foreign policy.

Derek

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 08:34 PM

i 've been giving this subject some serious thought,

why do you think MGM that the rules should be set in stone. we should change the rules - hand out more titles/

why stop at approbation and praise. why not award abusive and insulting titles.
LORD CHIEF DIRTY OLD SOD in charge of public morals
CHIEF SHIFTY CUSTOMER IN CHARGE OF MI5
villainous viscount in charge of public finance
we could have a CZAR in charge of folk music.

its a democracy - we can change the rules.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 17 Jun 14 - 02:16 AM

We do change the rules. Quite often.

Elected members of Parliament oversee and ratify the awards.

The Queen, Prince Charles and The Lord Lieutenants dish em out.

Any road up, we are a constitutional monarchy. Can you imagine having a head of state who actually asked for and wanted the job?

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Jun 14 - 03:40 AM

Where have I suggested any such thing, Al? All I have done is try to describe or define 'the rules' as they are to my understanding. Anything can be changed at any time by the competent authority; but while they are as they are, let's at least try to describe them accurately.

Regards

~M~

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Jun 14 - 05:04 AM

so if they wanted to, she could be Lady Eliza Carthy. I think that has a real ring to it. They ought to go for it.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Jun 14 - 06:00 AM

Well, then; tell them, Al. No good going on at me about it. Anyhow, it could perfectly well be accomplished under the present system. They would just have to give Martin an earldom, that's all. Any member of the public can nominate anyone for an honour these days. So write to the Prime Minister, and tell him he's got to make Martin the Earl of Folksville; and hey presto!...

~M~

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Jun 14 - 07:39 AM

will do!

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: Musket
Date: 17 Jun 14 - 08:37 AM

The Earl of Scarborough Fair....

Almost a song in itself.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: Musket
Date: 17 Jun 14 - 08:38 AM

In fact, thinking on.. I reckon thats a pub across the road from Leeds train station?

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Jun 14 - 09:29 AM

If anyone deserves special public recognition and honour awards before it's too late...

Wilko Johnson !!!

seriously one of the most culturally significant & influential musicians
of the last 40 years..

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Jun 14 - 12:21 PM

.seriously one of the most culturally significant & influential musicians
of the last 40 years.. '

yeh, tits not really in the same class though....

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: GUEST,Marianne S.
Date: 17 Jun 14 - 03:54 PM

Unnecessary and offensive.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 17 Jun 14 - 04:19 PM

well, i very much applaud eliza for all her efforts and some great gigs - particularly with the ratcatchers. however i must admit i am a little surprised and a bit disappointed that she (and her dad) would accept the title of member of the british empire. it is, of course, entirely their choice but i don't like to think of folk who i have great respect for being supportive of such an archaic and disgraceful institution. i thought they were good old lefties!

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jun 14 - 04:44 PM

There is always one grumpy old Trotskyist isn't there.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Jun 14 - 05:02 PM

What a boring old lefty fart!

~M~

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: GUEST,Vin2
Date: 17 Jun 14 - 05:32 PM

Saw Eliza and dad at Bury Met recently and they were awesome (to coin a phrase). Her fiddle playing is so incredible especially when accompanied or accompanying Martin's equally amazing guitar finger picking. Lovely foot-stomping rhythms and twirls.

Congratulations on the honour Eliza (and to me it's the recognition of the honour that counts, not the somewhat unfortunate title) I and many, many others already knew she was greeeeaaate anyway - as Vin Garbutt would say :-)

Going to see her dad and Swarb in Bury in September. Am sure D.S was a great mentor to Eliza as a child. Has he bin duly honoured yet ?

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Jun 14 - 05:55 PM

Actually, from a Traditional Folk POV, perhaps we should rejoice in the survival of the term British Empire; which expresses, whatever one's view of it, both a phrase and an entity much embedded in our history, although the actual concept which was the referent of its name only now survives, if at all, in unrecognisably altered form.

~M~

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: GUEST,silas
Date: 17 Jun 14 - 06:48 PM

So, three in the familiy now. I hope they remember who's is who's.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 17 Jun 14 - 07:02 PM

old trot certainly - though far from grumpy. just have no time for the monarchy - we are citizens not subjects- and the empire is an offensive idea that's just not right. i would have thought those guys would be a bit suspicious of the 'honour'

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jun 14 - 07:37 PM

When Martin Carthy accepted his MBE he made it clear that he was accepting it on behalf of all the traditional singers who have never been similarly recognised. He also said he felt it was an acknowledgement for traditional music, rather than of him as an individual. No doubt Norma and Eliza would express similar sentiments.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Jun 14 - 07:42 PM

I imagine the Carthy family see accepting their awards as being for the greater good of folk music. as Dick Gaughan pointed out - the first victims of the British Empire were in fact the English people.
their folk culture and stories were supressed and written out of history.

The Carthys and Watersons have made a very sincere lifelong effort to retrieve the folksongs that would have otherwise been disregarded and discarded by the establishment. I don't think you should pick them over the semantics of the award.

it is a great achievement.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 17 Jun 14 - 07:55 PM

their careers are a great achievement - who cares whether the queen or the 'empire' feel they ought to acknowledge it? we do.....

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: GUEST,Gerry
Date: 17 Jun 14 - 08:33 PM

"...make Martin the Earl of Folksville..." "The Earl of Scarborough Fair...." Why make something up, when there are already songs in the database called "Earl of Aboyne," "Earl of Westmoreland," "The Earl of Errol," and "The Earl of Totnes"? Perhaps one of those titles is currently vacant, and could usefully be conferred upon MC.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: TheSnail
Date: 18 Jun 14 - 06:38 AM

I thought Martin was The Crown Prince of Folk anyway.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 18 Jun 14 - 07:16 AM

We are subjects of a constitutional monarchy.

Rejoice!

Once again, congratulations to Eliza. Boo to those churlish idiots who mistake tradition for a political framework. You may not like monarchy, and I think it odd at times, but his strange "I thought she wouldn't have accepted" crap is typical bollocks, trying to shame good people by comparing to your own dismal standards.

Celebrating good people is worthwhile. This is how we have traditionally done it here.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Jun 14 - 07:41 AM

bit unfair musket - after all some rather beastly things were done in the name of the British Empire. I can see the blokes point. not saying I agree - I think the honour was accepted with the best intentions.

I admit, I felt some reservations when you got the iron cross with oakleaves. Still tea at the eagles nest....hard to turn down!

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: Musket
Date: 18 Jun 14 - 08:36 AM

No problem with not liking the honours system, there's plenty not to like and plenty to reform still, or even abolish. For instance, I am uncomfortable with perpetuating anything to do with the empire, and would change the name, although not to the point of throwing a nice thought back in the face of those who think you deserve it.

No. My moan is about those who push their values on others and judge them.

Oh, and cucumber sandwiches on the lawn. Don't get me started.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Jun 14 - 08:55 AM

Does anyone agree with me about the positive folkloric and nostalgic associations of the term British Empire as a historical entity which should be remembered [for its virtues as well as its vices -- anybody out there genuinely believe sub-Saharan Africa a nicer place to be now than it was 80 years ago?], as I urged in my post a few back - 05.55 pm?

~M~

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Jun 14 - 09:57 AM

well actually Mike - I think the Africans are all quite pleased that we've buggered off - at long last. put it this way -they haven't asked us back. neither have the Indians. or Australia.

I think theres only Gibraltar and the Falklands that quite liked us.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 18 Jun 14 - 10:13 AM

'my moan is about those who push their values on others and judge them'
fair enough - does that include judging people as 'churlish idiots' if they have different values to your own? i in no way want to criticise eliza etc - on the contrary- just saying that i am a bit disappointed. i feel we are endorsing the establishment (and the monarch who i am quite confident has never been to a folk gig or heard of the carthys) by going along with this patronage and they (unlike EC) do not deserve our approval.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jun 14 - 10:24 AM

.. without being churlish... etc.. etc.. etc

Maybe it's about time someone asked the reasonable question..

"what exactly has she done [above and beyond any other professional 'folk' performer in her relatively young age group]
to deserve such special meritus recognition ???"

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: Musket
Date: 18 Jun 14 - 10:27 AM

I don't approve of the royal family. Neither do I disapprove. They are there, I am here. They were once nice to me and gave me a gong, I am nice to them and never stick a stamp on an envelope upside down.

They didn't buy the gong, I don't buy stamps, (Mrs Musket buys them.)

It isn't a matter of having different views, it's being disappointed that someone has different values to you. Disappointed means judging them.

That disappoints me.




And unless the Queen personally glasses the Syrian President in the pub and shouts "outside now!" To the Chinese President, I doubt I will be returning mine in order to complain about Imperialist aggression....

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Jun 14 - 10:52 AM

Well, Al: the oppressive governments currently in control thruout most of Africa aren't going to invite us back, are they? And those they oppress haven't the power or the authority: even supposing they have any memory of how much better it used to be there. I have heard from several Sierra Leonean intellectuals in their universities [I worked in one for a short time] that they are not happy with the way things are and can see little prospect of improvement -- even tho they have stopped hacking one another's hands off for the nonce, as they were doing during the civil war which happened a bit after Valerie & I left there. I think your reply was a bit naif, to be honest; and not quite an answer to the question I asked, if you look back. All I asked was whether anyone thought things were better around there than they were 80 years ago; which you haven't really addressed at all. I am of course aware of the futility of trying to turn clocks back; but that doesn't preclude some from wishing wistfully that it might just be possible sometimes.

But we have drifted rather far from Eliza; so I leave this topic now -- just reiterating my pleasure in her success; and wondering what achmel thinks she & her parents should have done: said something like "Love to have an honour, thank you Ma'am; but you'll have to change its name just for little me or I couldn't possibly accept"? Away you!

~M~

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Jun 14 - 12:50 PM

all I can tell you is the kids I taught with a background, from the Indian sub continent, they had been brought up very deeply resentful of british rule by their parents.

I imagine the Africans feel the same.

theres loads of people think England was a better place eighty years ago. perhaps in some ways it was - but there was a lot of collateral damage with the values of those times. damage we can't count - because it occurred to no one to count the lives ruined and marginalised.

like in Ireland we will continue to get blamed for these countries misfortunes - they fuck you up, your mum and dad. I am glad we're concentrating a bit more on our own back garden these days. my grandfather served in the Lancashire hussars in the boer war. among his posessions was a rhino whip to prevent coloured people from using the pavements.
mentally I wear seven league boots to step away from what it must have been like.so wear your gongs with pride - they show you've done good things.
but keep in mind that rhino whip....lest we forget.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 05:08 AM

- I think the Africans are all quite pleased that we've buggered off - at long last. put it this way -they haven't asked us back.

One of Nelson Mandela's first acts as President was to bring South Africa back into the British Commonwealth. Pakistan has left and returned and Mozambique has joined even though it was never part of the Empire. As the Commonwealth is the direct descendent of the British Empire, surely this shows that not everybody hates us for our colonial past.

My objection to the honours system is not with the name but with the system itself. Successful Olympic athletes get gold medals as their prize. They don't need titles or letters after their name as well. High profile celebrities get paid obscene amounts of money without the need to be called Sir or Dame. For every token school caretaker, there are thousands more giving the same service without recognition. I know several people who have been awarded an MBE for voluntary work within the community. By coincidence, they were all civil servants or worked in local government.

DC

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: Musket
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 06:37 AM

Having been on both sides of this Doug, (when I held public office, I had opportunity to nominate in certain categories,) I would agree that there seemed to be more success when the volunteer was also connected with public sector in some way unrelated, but I still hold onto the "coincidence" idea in principle. Every caretaker with a gong indicates the work of caretakers, not just the caretaker. OBE always stood for Other Bugger's Efforts. (CBE and MBE tend to be more personal achievement whereas OBE indicates the "type of service that gets recognition.")

The sports, music, acting and otherwise celebrity awards do have their place. For "real" people to be given something that is a big deal for the famous does, in my experience, add to it. One lady who got one as a volunteer helper in a care home locally, when I asked her what her day was like, spent the next ten mins listing the famous people she was waiting with. May seem facile to some, but celebrity works. We wouldn't have celebrity without it.

Al. I'll check to see who Mandella left his rhino whip to in his will. Also, you can read the statistics of country and ethnicity of recipients. They make interesting reading for those who dismiss the honours system as repressing British aggression.

Lloyd George set up the universal pension on the proceeds of British aggression. Beveridge's welfare state proposals had as the largest risk to success in his introduction, the dismantling of the Empire.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 07:55 AM

".. without being churlish... etc.. etc.. etc

Maybe it's about time someone asked the reasonable question..

"what exactly has she done [above and beyond any other professional 'folk' performer in her relatively young age group]
to deserve such special meritus recognition ???"



Some of Eliza's career highlights (from her biography):

Media

BBC Radio 2: Eliza Carthy's Anglicana (four-part series on the history of English folk music)

ITV: Heaven and Earth (hour long documentary)

Channel 5: My Music (hour-long documentary)

BBC Radio 2: The Sony Award-winning Mark Radcliffe Show (regular co-presenter)

BBC 2: Later…With Jools Holland (multiple appearances)        

BBC Television: In Search of English Folk Song (directed by Ken Russell)        

NBC's Late Night with Conan O'Brien (music guest)

BBC 4's Folk Britannia Season (featured artist)


Patronage

Current Associate Artist at The Sage, Gateshead, following on from Kathryn Tickell

English Folk Dance and Song Society – Vice President

Whitby Folk Week – Patron

Cheltenham Folk Festival – Patron

Resonance FM - Ambassador


Awards and Nominations

BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards (8, including Best Album, Best Traditional Track and Folk Singer of the Year)

Mercury Prize nominations (2, for Red Rice and Anglicana)

Paul Hamlyn Award for Artists


Producing Credits

9 acclaimed solo albums, plus Gift, her collaboration with Norma Waterson, for which she also provided arrangements and most of the instrumentation.


Notable Collaborations and Guest Appearances

Billy Bragg & Wilco, Mermaid Avenue vols I and II (winners of 2 Grammy Awards)

Welcome Songs, a collaboration with Robert Hollingworth and community choirs for the London 2012 Cultural Olympiad

Hal Willner's Rogues Gallery project, alongside Brian Ferry, Sting, Johnny Depp, the McGarrigle family, Richard & Teddy Thompson and Tim Robbins

Patrick Wolf's critically-acclaimed album The Bachelor

The Imagined Village (a World music and English trad adventure, featuring members of The Bays, Transglobal Underground and AfroCelt Sound System)

4 Meltdown Festivals at the Southbank (curated by Nick Cave, Patti Smith, Hal Willner and Richard Thompson)

Work with Paul Weller, Jools Holland, jazz legend Bill Frisell, seminal Scots Latin/trad fusion band Salsa Celtica, Finnish Lord of the Rings composers Vartinna, Joan Baez, Cerys Matthews, 90s dance pioneers Red Snapper and many more.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 09:27 AM

Well, that looks like a varied and enjoyable career CV in a specialised part of the entertainment industry,
daresay very satisfying & rewarding in itself - creatively and remunatively...

But is it really any more deserving of public & civic awarded recognition
than, say for example, my old mum who retired after a lifetime working in OAP care homes.
Washing and wiping private parts & arses of infirm and incontinent senior citizens day in and day out;
let alone holding their hands and comforting them on their death beds
whilst the families who dumped them there were too busy or far away...???

Now my mum would probably piss her self laughing at the idea
of a medal and a formal title
and getting all dressed up for a royal tea party

- but despite being a commited lefty since the end of World war 2
she'd be well chuffed to meet the queen and have a sneaky snoop round her garden, kitchen, and bathrooms........

Probably even be first to volunteer to help her majesty clean herself up in the toilet if need arose....

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 09:53 AM

The question was "what exactly has she done [above and beyond any other professional 'folk' performer in her relatively young age group]
to deserve such special meritus recognition ???"

Regarding your completely different question, I'm sure that there are hundreds of people from within the sports and entertainment industries who have been awarded MBEs. It doesn't seem that Eliza's is particularly out of character. Nor does it undermine the awards that go to people for services to their communities or the caring professions. I believe there are many of those each year. My friend won one a few years ago for services to nursing.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: GUEST,eliza carthy
Date: 11 Jul 14 - 07:52 PM

Hello all, it's been a while. Forgive me this please.
    To clarify: I accepted the award with the purpose of publicising a worthwhile minority music. I don't believe that ticking the "no" box two months ago would have done anything to further that cause.
I do not believe in the monarchy or class systems but I do believe that the award of MBE is specifically given by "ordinary" people (whatever that means) to people who work at a grassroots level to benefit and further their communities, which I believe I have done.
GUEST, Anon, I also believe that I have perhaps done more politically than most folks my age to stick my neck out for this community that we occupy. I set out over twenty years ago, and continue, to debate issues of Englishness in the world and at home and promote English traditional music both in the world and at home in a way that I do not believe anyone else of my generation has done to the same extent, possibly just as a result of my longevity but also as a result of bloody-mindedness and early on, an unwillingness to undersell the wider argument which I felt was vital during a nationwide malaise and lack of confidence.
I have done the above in various ways, some of which have done me lots of favours and some of which have done me no favours at all. I have worked monstrously hard towards this goal (which is more of a process than a goal) with fluctuating interest from the world since I was thirteen years old, and I will be doing so until I drop. It is my absolute reason for being, and yes I do think we deserve it as a community.
There are in addition, plenty of things I have not yet done, compared to others my age. I have not engaged in teaching that much, and I am aiming to change that. Organising stages for people coming up is also something I have only had limited involvement in, but I'm working on that too. I always saw myself as someone holding the door open. It'd be nice if it was true.
There are people out there that just want to make records, and good luck to them. I am not one of those. Hopefully, good luck to me too? This is a thing that undoubtedly makes the phone ring, and I can continue to do what i hope is a good and worthwhile thing as a result.
I know that I started young as a result of the springboard my family gave me (i heard once that traditional music was a generation game. So perhaps that's natural, but you know, still grateful). I know that there are thousands of people in the world who work a lot harder than me who could do with a pat on the back at the very least. I also know that connections in art and community make people a bit happier, and that while I will never be Mother Theresa it's worth doing one thing that does that, and worth doing what you love and what you might be good at.
Thanks for reading. And sorry, but I haven't said it all out loud yet.
Unless you're a troll, in which case, like, well done and fuck off and stuff. ;-)
Xe

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jul 14 - 07:58 PM

Well said, Guest, whoever you are. Wish I knew.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 12:46 AM

Just to say, Eliza, v glad to read your comments on the thread. Thank you for coming.

Don't expect you remember me, though I have followed your career with interest & admiration. I'm an old friend of Martin & Norma, whom I once interviewed in my flat in Cambridge for Folk Review way-back-when. Norma intro'd me to you at the Peter Bellamy Memorial Concert, but we haven't actually met since.

But all best traditional greetings just the same.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 12:47 AM

... and of course many congratulations on your honour!

~M~

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 07:15 AM

absolutely...very well done!

I think you should give serious consideration to my idea of calling yourself Lady Eliza Carthy - it will raise the whole tone of the folk revival. and you could judge flowershows

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: GUEST,Mary Humphreys
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 07:48 AM

Anonymous Guest posted on 23 June: Probably even be first to volunteer to help her majesty clean herself up in the toilet if need arose....

Can I say that I have always had the highest respect for the Waterson-Carthy family for their work in putting our music back into circulation.
I have an even higher respect for them being decent folk who are not above cleaning up after other people.
At the last National Festival I was in the ladies' loo ( behind a closed door at the time) when I heard Norma and Eliza enter the room. Norma said - "What a mess someone's left". The counter tops were covered in tissues, paper towels and large puddles of water.
When I came out of the cubicle I saw Norma and Eliza mopping down the place with paper towels and making the place more like you would expect at home.
They are my sort of people. Be proud of your MBE Eliza, I am proud of you and your mum & dad.
Mary

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 09:34 AM

Thank you Eliza, for everything you and your wonderful family have done already and will do in the future.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: Joe Nicholson
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 12:37 PM

Well written Eliza and congratulations.

Joe & Mo Nicholson

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: GUEST,eliza carthy
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 01:26 PM

Thanks all. Further to a post above by GUEST achmelvich also-the Queen whispered "I'm very glad to do this one" to my Dad when presenting him with his, and gave him the slightest of winks…x

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: Jim McLean
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 03:20 PM

My objection to the honours system is that someone so talented and influential in the folk music scene has been "honoured" by someone who doesn't know a crotchet from a hatchet.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 03:35 PM

A bit of a non-point, surely, Jim? Eliza·IIR has her job to do, Eliza·C has hers. No reason they can't each recognise that the other does hers efficiently, without being necessarily able to appreciate all its complexities.

EIIR's is, in this instance, to express, on qualified advice, the recognition and appreciation of those who do know, on behalf of society as a whole. As Eliza herself put it, "I do believe that the award of MBE is specifically given by "ordinary" people (whatever that means) to people who work at a grassroots level to benefit and further their communities".

I bet you will "honour" a footballer or an actor on TV with your approval. Could you do either of their jobs, do you reckon?

~M~

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: GUEST,elizacarthy
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 03:52 PM

Jim, the Queen doesn't decide the Honours list. It is put together by the honours committee, who react to nominations from (anonymous) "normal" people.
And does anyone know the kind of music the Queen likes? Does anyone care? It seemed to me a nice thing that she did in fact know Dad and was happy to give him his award. I imagine being Queen is pretty weird.
…."i wouldn't be king for a hundred pounds"
-Alice
xe

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 03:57 PM

a crotchette....bit like a mankini...a very revealing swimming costume.
hatchet....instructions to chicken, regarding egg.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: Jim McLean
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 04:03 PM

MtheGM to be the Queen you just have to born.. I realise of course this discussion will only go one way so I'm out.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 06:09 PM

Me too. Not following this one any further.

Bye bye, Jim. CU on another thread!

Best

~Michael~

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 12:19 AM

Next morning -- slow burn

But must nevertheless point out supreme irrelevance in that non-argument. Elected presidents, dictators, & all other heads of state confer honours, under advice from the committees appointed in their countries for the purpose, who will not necessarily have any more knowledge of the details of all the achievements, contributions or 'services' for which they were awarded than will a hereditary monarch. So the fact the HMQ happened to have been born to the job rather than achieving it by any other means, is most gloriously irrelevant to JMcL's own point

isn't it?

Silly kipper!

~M~

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 07:12 AM

well yeh, but when you think of all the crap the rest of us wade through. royalty sort of enshrines and gives the nod of approval to the inequality of some people born to wealth and privilege.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 07:14 AM

Well said Eliza, and well done for confronting the critics ... can't think of many who would do that in such circumstances...
Derek