Eliza Carthy MBE

Subject: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 14 Jun 14 - 01:43 PM

Congratulations to Eliza Carthy on the award of the MBE in today's Queen's Birthday Honours list. That's one each now for mum, dad and daughter!
Derek

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: Stu
Date: 14 Jun 14 - 02:42 PM

Congrats indeed!

Also to the wonderful Cerys Matthews.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: Little Robyn
Date: 14 Jun 14 - 08:03 PM

Wow. Congratulations!
Robyn in NZ

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: Leadfingers
Date: 14 Jun 14 - 08:20 PM

At this rate , Folk Music will be acceptable in my lietime !

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: Wheatman
Date: 15 Jun 14 - 04:09 AM

Well on the way now, congrats Brian Kell BEM

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jun 14 - 04:14 AM

Did her dad ever get one?

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Jun 14 - 04:18 AM

Yes -- I think both her parents are MBE. Martin most certainly is.

~M~

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: GUEST,big al whittle
Date: 15 Jun 14 - 06:56 AM

funny old business....i wonder if the queen knows anything about folk music. she didn't know who brian may was. i suppose when you get that old just breathing in and out is an achievement.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: GUEST,George Frampton
Date: 15 Jun 14 - 08:32 AM

Any congratulations from Flirby and myself. If Eliza cares to dip her head into The Volunteer at Sidmouth, I'm sure she'll be duly honoured by us all of there as well!

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jun 14 - 09:00 AM

i suppose when you get that old just breathing in and out is an achievement.
Just like most folkies these days

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: GUEST,michaelr
Date: 15 Jun 14 - 12:14 PM

Question from the US: Is this bestowment still considered an honor, or even a big deal? Who cares about it?

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jun 14 - 12:45 PM

"Who cares about it?"

Most likely her Management agency & publicists ???

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: GUEST,Growler
Date: 15 Jun 14 - 02:37 PM

Well earned

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Jun 14 - 02:45 PM

michaelr: recipients are always sounded out by confidential mail first to ensure the award would be welcome to them. Quite a number do not accept. Presumably it means something to those that do, or they wouldn't. Evelyn Waugh the great 20C novelist turned down the CBE (Commander of the Order of the Bath) because he felt he should have been offered a knighthood ~~ "I prefer to wait until I shall have won my spurs," he replied to the letter from the Office of Her Majesty's Private Secretary, Awards Division - or whoever it was...

Eliza's MBE, BTW, for any who may not know, stands for her being a Member of that Order. There is also an OBE status in between the two -- Officer of...

~M~

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Jun 14 - 02:46 PM

Sorry -=- Order of the British Empire, not the Bath. Apologies -- I wasn't thinking!.

~M~

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 15 Jun 14 - 03:01 PM

The vast majority of people like the honours system. It was revamped a few years ago as it was getting a bit stale.

The principle of not looking for it and knowing that your worth has been through a process of nomination, consideration and short listing is a simple, no strings attached acknowledgment of good selfless deeds , public service or tireless serving your community.

There are high profile awards and whilst these attract debate, they enhance the association when a carer stands in line next to a famous person to collect their gong.

I tend to be bemused however by the hierarchical aspects and to be honest, that needs further attention. I am also always ready to slowly shake my head at the chippy spartists, trying to make you feel ashamed if something nice happening to you.

The most republican thinking of people still like the recognition. Our NUM branch secretary back in the late '70s was proud of his BEM. The stick he got from angry armchair socialists was disgusting to witness.

Fuck 'em. I am one of hundreds of thousands living with a gong, and my only regret is that my parents weren't alive to accompany me to Buckingham Palace. That said, mine was for services to healthcare and I cannot even dream of comparing myself with some of the unsung heros at the sharp end. Sadly, I deal mainly with the ones who let people down.

Eliza 's gong and that of her family fellow gongs show that someone somewhere wanted them to get recognition for their contribution to the arts and a sceptical thorough committee in government agreed.

Well done Eliza.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: Mr Red
Date: 15 Jun 14 - 04:30 PM

"
Question from the US: Is this bestowment still considered an honor, or even a big deal? Who cares about it? "

Angelina Jolie thinks highly of her Honorary Honour. For services to her "Anti-Rape Around the World" work.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Jun 14 - 06:54 PM

I think you miss the point musket.

all these people would rather meet big bill broonzy than the queen.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 12:23 AM

anyway well done!

you ought to get a title really. Lady Eliza Carthy....that sounds really good.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 01:32 AM

Aye , but funnily enough, the queen might like to meet them. Or, as in my case, her jug eared son. (Playing to the crowd, I meant HRH.)

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 02:02 AM

Getting to meet the Queen is not the reward. The appreciation of a larger society is.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 02:58 AM

"Lady Eliza Carthy" could only be her title if she were the daughter of a duke, marquess, or earl; which she is not. To get a title, she would have to have her MBE raided to a DBE, when she would become "Dame Eliza Carthy". Or else get a life peerage, which would make her "Lady Carthy" or "Baroness Carthy" (of Somewhere-or-Other). Might happen eventually; she is quite young, after all.

~M~

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: Howard Jones
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 04:56 AM

In reply to michealr, yes it is an honour and it does mean something. It is official recognition by the state of an individual's exceptional achievements and contribution to society. Most countries have something similar, including the US which has a long list of civilian honours.

It is often seen not just as recognition of the individual but of the activity in which they are involved. Awards such as those to Shirley Collins, Martin and Norma, and now Eliza Carthy can be regarded as recognition of the field in which they work as well as their individual contributions.

The nomenclature with all its references to a long-gone Empire is somewhat out of date, but change happens slowly here. Some people confuse it with the class system, and some object to the connection with the monarchy, although formally they are awarded by the Queen on the recommendation of the Prime Minister who in turn is advised by the Honours Committee

The system has been opened up in recent years and anyone can nominate someone for an honour.

https://www.gov.uk/honours/overview

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 05:54 AM

MGM: Eliza could become Lady Eliza Carthy (strictly, Lady Carthy) if she married a knight, or married someone who became a knight ... but then, of course, she would perhaps have to take his surname to be able to use the title. (I wonder if the Honours committee have thought about the titles given to the married partners of same sex couples when one partner gets a knighthood...). I digress...
Anyway, first, Eliza, catch your knight!!! :-)
Derek

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 06:59 AM

No, Derek! ~~ she would not be correctly styled so in that case. She would be Lady Whateverhisnamewas. Even if he was also coincidentally called Carthy, she would, as you yourself point out, be "Lady Carthy" -- tho idiomatically she might be mentioned as "Lady (Eliza) Carthy" in contexts where necessary to differentiate her from some other knight's wife whose name also happened to be Carthy.

I repeat ~~ The only person correctly styled "Lady Forename Surname" is the daughter of a duke, marquess, or earl.

~M~

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: r.padgett
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 07:15 AM

O right well nice one and all the best to Liza Carthy

Ray

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 08:44 AM

what if they made Martin a duke ?
they might do that.

what about Julian fellowes of downton abbey fame. they made him lord fellowes of west Stafford.

he could be lord carthy of Yorkshire. perhaps the queen could make him an equerry - and he could clean up the horse shit.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: GUEST,John Foxen
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 10:43 AM

The honours system confuses most English people, even folkies who often announce they will sing Lord Franklin.
He wasn't a lord although his wife was Lady Franklin. He was but Sir John Franklin.
As for Eliza's MBE - all well and good if she wants it.
But Roy Bailey sings just as well even though he sent his back.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 10:53 AM

What do you mean "sent his back"? Didn't think he had ever received one. If you mean he was offered one and declined, why not say so?

How well he sings is beside the point. Eliza & Martin & Norma & Shirley weren't honoured just for singing well, you know.

Have often wondered why the folk conferred a peerage on Sir John Franklin; but that's the folk process for you.

~M~

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: GUEST,Horny Codger
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 11:07 AM

.. so what's the old feudal title that confers the right to deflower all local virgins on their wedding night;
and how would one aquire it ???

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 11:15 AM

You would have to be a character in a play by Beaumarchis turned into an opera by Mozart, Codger. It is probable that such a right never in fact existed in real history. Wikipedia says "According to the most known variant, it was an alleged legal right allowing the lord of a medieval estate to take the virginity of his serfs' maiden daughters.
There is little evidence, however, that the alleged rights ever actually existed, much less that they were ever exercised". {entry under heading Droit du seigneur}

~M~

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: Musket
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 12:05 PM

Just about every traditional song in my repertoire has the randy old bugger exercising his right.

Or his wife exercising her right ish...




Sometimes with seven gypsies.





Good job they didn't have Facebook really. Let alone YouTube.



Back to the honours system.. It plays second fiddle to academic achievement you'll be pleased to hear. Many a Prof. Sir or Prof. Dame, but never Sir Prof. Etc.

However, it does knock Dr out of the arena, as does Prof.

Perhaps best to be offered a suffix gong such as OBE, CBE etc just to be safe if you are clever.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 03:54 PM

I dunno - princess di never bragged about her 4 o levels

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 05:36 PM

MGM: if you read my message again, it made the point you stated at 6.59am. My message was an attempt at lightheartedness....

Roy Bailey was given an MBE but returned it in protest at Blair's foreign policy.

Derek

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 08:34 PM

i 've been giving this subject some serious thought,

why do you think MGM that the rules should be set in stone. we should change the rules - hand out more titles/

why stop at approbation and praise. why not award abusive and insulting titles.
LORD CHIEF DIRTY OLD SOD in charge of public morals
CHIEF SHIFTY CUSTOMER IN CHARGE OF MI5
villainous viscount in charge of public finance
we could have a CZAR in charge of folk music.

its a democracy - we can change the rules.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 17 Jun 14 - 02:16 AM

We do change the rules. Quite often.

Elected members of Parliament oversee and ratify the awards.

The Queen, Prince Charles and The Lord Lieutenants dish em out.

Any road up, we are a constitutional monarchy. Can you imagine having a head of state who actually asked for and wanted the job?

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Jun 14 - 03:40 AM

Where have I suggested any such thing, Al? All I have done is try to describe or define 'the rules' as they are to my understanding. Anything can be changed at any time by the competent authority; but while they are as they are, let's at least try to describe them accurately.

Regards

~M~

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Jun 14 - 05:04 AM

so if they wanted to, she could be Lady Eliza Carthy. I think that has a real ring to it. They ought to go for it.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Jun 14 - 06:00 AM

Well, then; tell them, Al. No good going on at me about it. Anyhow, it could perfectly well be accomplished under the present system. They would just have to give Martin an earldom, that's all. Any member of the public can nominate anyone for an honour these days. So write to the Prime Minister, and tell him he's got to make Martin the Earl of Folksville; and hey presto!...

~M~

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Jun 14 - 07:39 AM

will do!

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: Musket
Date: 17 Jun 14 - 08:37 AM

The Earl of Scarborough Fair....

Almost a song in itself.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: Musket
Date: 17 Jun 14 - 08:38 AM

In fact, thinking on.. I reckon thats a pub across the road from Leeds train station?

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Jun 14 - 09:29 AM

If anyone deserves special public recognition and honour awards before it's too late...

Wilko Johnson !!!

seriously one of the most culturally significant & influential musicians
of the last 40 years..

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Jun 14 - 12:21 PM

.seriously one of the most culturally significant & influential musicians
of the last 40 years.. '

yeh, tits not really in the same class though....

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: GUEST,Marianne S.
Date: 17 Jun 14 - 03:54 PM

Unnecessary and offensive.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 17 Jun 14 - 04:19 PM

well, i very much applaud eliza for all her efforts and some great gigs - particularly with the ratcatchers. however i must admit i am a little surprised and a bit disappointed that she (and her dad) would accept the title of member of the british empire. it is, of course, entirely their choice but i don't like to think of folk who i have great respect for being supportive of such an archaic and disgraceful institution. i thought they were good old lefties!

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jun 14 - 04:44 PM

There is always one grumpy old Trotskyist isn't there.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Jun 14 - 05:02 PM

What a boring old lefty fart!

~M~

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: GUEST,Vin2
Date: 17 Jun 14 - 05:32 PM

Saw Eliza and dad at Bury Met recently and they were awesome (to coin a phrase). Her fiddle playing is so incredible especially when accompanied or accompanying Martin's equally amazing guitar finger picking. Lovely foot-stomping rhythms and twirls.

Congratulations on the honour Eliza (and to me it's the recognition of the honour that counts, not the somewhat unfortunate title) I and many, many others already knew she was greeeeaaate anyway - as Vin Garbutt would say :-)

Going to see her dad and Swarb in Bury in September. Am sure D.S was a great mentor to Eliza as a child. Has he bin duly honoured yet ?

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Jun 14 - 05:55 PM

Actually, from a Traditional Folk POV, perhaps we should rejoice in the survival of the term British Empire; which expresses, whatever one's view of it, both a phrase and an entity much embedded in our history, although the actual concept which was the referent of its name only now survives, if at all, in unrecognisably altered form.

~M~