BS: UK street grooming gangs.

Subject: BS: UK street grooming gangs.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jun 14 - 04:03 PM

We have had a couple of threads on this, but Jim Carroll has hijacked numerous unrelated threads to dredge it up over and over.
It has made him and me very unpopular.

In future I will only reply to him on this thread so no more threads will be spoiled.

On the original thread I found myself defending the proposition that one demographic group was over-represented.
In the end only Jim challenged that fact and I withdrew.
For his benefit, here are a coulple of people who agree with me.

Subject: RE: BS: UK street grooming gangs.
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Jun 14 - 04:14 PM

two people.....

Subject: RE: BS: UK street grooming gangs.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jun 14 - 04:14 PM

This British Pakistani journalist with Channel 4.

Guardian September 2012.
This crime does have one very significant factor that has left me feeling deeply ashamed. The brutality and horror of these acts have nothing to do with me; they are as far removed from my life as the next person's. Yet I somehow feel responsible when I look at the names or faces of the perpetrators.

Why? Because a disproportionate number of them are British Pakistani – just like me.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/sep/30/abuse-children-asian-communities

Subject: RE: BS: UK street grooming gangs.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jun 14 - 04:21 PM

This is an imam.
The Independent.
"He is addressing the question of whether a disproportionate number of British Asian men are involved in grooming underage girls for sex. He thinks the answer is "Yes" – which is also very plain-speaking on a subject around which the British policing, political, academic and social work establishment dances with over-sensitive diplomacy.

Yet Imam Karmani is no maverick. As well as being an imam, he is a psychologist with more than 20 years of practical experience in youth and community work. He is a former adviser to the Department for Education on youth empowerment and a one-time head of race equality for the Welsh Assembly and is now co-director of Street, a project whose name stands for Strategy to Reach, Empower and Educate Teenagers."
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/asian-grooming-why-we-need-to-talk-about-sex-7734712.html

Subject: RE: BS: UK street grooming gangs.
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Jun 14 - 04:53 PM

Jaysus, not this shite again Keith. Do you feel compelled to be a fuckwit?

With any luck, NOBODY will reply to your horsehit & we'll all be spared another demonstration of your fuckwitism.

Over & Out.

Subject: RE: BS: UK street grooming gangs.
From: MartinRyan
Date: 22 Jun 14 - 04:59 PM

FFS... What you two need is a two-way radio, well isolated from the rest of the world. I'd even lend you two shoe polish cans and a long piece of string if it would help...


Regards

Subject: RE: BS: UK street grooming gangs.
From: GUEST,#
Date: 22 Jun 14 - 05:05 PM

Gangs and grooming.

Enjoy :-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK street grooming gangs.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Jun 14 - 05:21 PM

Keith, I have always said that the facts are, undoubtedly. as you say. There is an over-representation. What you are not addressing is why there is an over-representation. Is it because this demographic group are predisposed to this activity? Is it because they are not very clever and are caught more easily? Is it because the police are concentrating their efforts more in this area? I don't know. Do you? Can you at least let us know what your theories are? Saying that this group is over represented is just like saying the sky is blue. The fact means nothing. The reasons behind it do..

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: UK street grooming gangs.
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Jun 14 - 05:43 PM

I haven't responded to a FW Keith post in quite a while, Martin; no point trying to teach a pig to sing. In this case I plead extreme provocation.

Shoe polich cans are too shallow for decent sound reproduction, but thanks for the offer.

Subject: RE: BS: UK street grooming gangs.
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Jun 14 - 06:14 PM

there was a programme last week about how some Asians seem to have taken up dog fighting.

if the dogfighters and the groomers got together - they could take up dog grooming....

Subject: RE: BS: UK street grooming gangs.
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Jun 14 - 06:36 PM

Good try Al, but the subject is not really funny.
This is a serious problem in what is supposed to be a "multicultural society"
There is no doubt a conflict in how our children are viewed by many Muslims.
To me their views on morality seem overly strict and ours disgustingly lax......It all adds up to trouble in the future, and another sign that multiculturalism just does not work in practice.

Subject: RE: BS: UK street grooming gangs.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jun 14 - 10:57 PM

This thread is to express my own exasperation that Jim has dragged this issue into yet another unrelated thread.

Greg and Martin, it is not me who keeps raising this subject.
This thread is intended to be exactly the tin can telephone Martin suggests.

No-one else needs to be offended or bored by it.
Like Greg I hope that nobody will reply to this horseshit.
My hope is that Jim will stop doing it if he has no audience.

Subject: RE: BS: UK street grooming gangs.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jun 14 - 11:05 PM

Dave, the only explanation I have seen has been to do with culture.
That is the explanation given by the two folk I have linked to.
I have no knowledge of that, but see no reason to doubt their view.

Subject: RE: BS: UK street grooming gangs.
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 12:46 AM

Keith, you think this is only a problem in the UK? And that it is predominately "Asian [Pakistani]" in orientation? It's a problem everywhere. You just seem to be able to only focus on the Pakistani/Asian aspects of it.

Keith said
Dave, the only explanation I have seen has been to do with culture.
That is the explanation given by the two folk I have linked to.
I have no knowledge of that, but see no reason to doubt their view.

Listen. You don't need to doubt that sexual groom happens, what you need to understand is that you're tarring specific groups when it is a much larger problem worldwide. Look around to see how many anglo men from the UK, from North America, or well-to-do men from any culture, from any place, travel to regions of the world where laws are lax, where sexual grooming and prostitution are more in the open. You're just looking at magnified story about men who find a way to tap into a local sex trade market.

The problem isn't that this is happening (to a small degree) in Pakistani UK cultures, it is that it is happening worldwide but you're only noticing one local group who you seem to have a personal problem with. Open your eyes.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: UK street grooming gangs.
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 02:06 AM

SRS -- Don't know where to begin, except to say you entirely miss the point. "Sex Tourism" is quite a different phenomenon from "Gang grooming of underage girls", and you are being the opposite of helpful in even introducing the former into this discussion, which exclusively concerns the latter.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: UK street grooming gangs.
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 02:39 AM

Hey! Let's all join Keith in finding ways to blame a whole section of society for something unrelated!

There are more Christian rapists in prison than any other cultural demographic.

And burglars.

And car thieves.

And paedophiles.

And murderers.

And perpetrators of domestic violence.



It isn't so much that there are many young men of Asian extraction who have been brainwashed by their religious cultural upbringing that women are second class; that seems to be a problem where children are exposed to superstitious beliefs anyway.

It's that Keith wishes to keep making a point about it.

I'd rather not know why but I think I do.

And I find it repugnant.

Subject: RE: BS: UK street grooming gangs.
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 03:03 AM

"It isn't so much that there are many young men of Asian extraction who have been brainwashed by their religious cultural upbringing that women are second class; that seems to be a problem where children are exposed to superstitious beliefs anyway."

It isn't that these young men see all women as "second class", "easy meat", "trash" to be sexually exploited, it is mainly young white girls who are "groomed and passed around for sex.
Their own women are treated in a morally strict way, sexual contact is frowned upon. It seems to me to be a conflict of two separate cultures.

Subject: RE: BS: UK street grooming gangs.
From: GUEST,LK867
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 04:00 AM

I live in the North of Ireland and the majority of ethnic groups seem to get on great and are an asset to the community. Small numbers of Loyalist thugs waving the Union flag seem to be targeting Muslims and Eastern Europeans though.

The English have to understand, if you have plundered other countries for their natural resources and created an Empire or Commonwealth whichever you chose to call it, you have to accept people from these countries have the right to come to the UK.

This includes acceptance of their cultural traditions and human rights.

Subject: RE: BS: UK street grooming gangs.
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 04:15 AM

Who said they haven't such a right, LK?

So do you think that gives them some authority to form into gangs patrolling the streets of our towns & cities, to exploit, sexually and otherwise, our just pre-pubescent girls looking for kicks, seducing them with drink & drugs & sweet-talk?

If so, we disagree profoundly. If not, then what on earth was the point of your truculent but irrelevant post anyhow?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: UK street grooming gangs.
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 04:20 AM

LK867, that's a ridiculous stance. On that basis, one would have to condone here in UK genital mutilation, forced marriage , limited or no education of women, polygamy and other horrors. Don't be daft.

Subject: RE: BS: UK street grooming gangs.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 04:43 AM

That is yet another potential reason they seem to be over represented, SRS. They are noticed more.



From the first article linked by Keith -



It's important to stress at this juncture that the vast majority of sexual crimes against children in the UK are committed by white men and that this type of grooming is only a small percentage of those crimes. Of the 1.2 million Pakistanis in Britain only a tiny minority has any connection with such deplorable acts of sexual violence. I'm writing this carefully because I want it to be read carefully. These men may be British-Pakistani but that does not mean that this is a crime specific to British-Pakistani men.



And from the second -



"It's not that long ago that a man could get drunk on a Sunday lunchtime and go home and give his wife a beating and people would accept that as normal," Wendy Shepherd says. "The danger with saying that the problem is with one ethnicity is that then people will only be on the look-out for that group – and risk missing other threats."



Child sex abusers come from all backgrounds. Greater Manchester Police Assistant Chief Constable Steve Heywood said after the Rochdale convictions that his force was investigating other cases of on-street grooming which did not involve British Pakistanis. "Our experience shows us that all communities need to be vigilant to this issue." Without that many more children will suffer at the hands of such men.

Just pointing out that the articles are not confirming that there is any cultural implant amongst British Pakistanis. Just an over representation and that brings me back to the question of why is that so?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: UK street grooming gangs.
From: GUEST,LK867
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 05:08 AM

What I am saying is, Britain must take some responsibility for their own actions.They championed themselves as the capital of multiculturalism. Certain traditions and cultural acceptance comes with this, very difficult to change mindsets, especially if you introduce laws to protect them, you can't cherry pick.

Communities are now firmly established in Britain that accept certain practices, such as forced marriage and thousand year old laws that abuse females.   

How do the like of France or Germany deal with it ?

Subject: RE: BS: UK street grooming gangs.
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 05:20 AM

But these communities are ashamed of the abuser-gangs in their midst: they do not feel that their marriage customs give any warrant for such behaviour, and neither does anyone else -- except, it appears, you? If that isn't what you mean [as I presume it isn't], then you are failing to make it clear precisely what your point is, in relation to the subject of this thread, LK.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: UK street grooming gangs.
From: Musket
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 05:56 AM

Are you ashamed of the abuser gangs in your midst, as you put it Michael?

Subject: RE: BS: UK street grooming gangs.
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 06:24 AM

I never knew Keith is of Pakistani origins. It really doesn't matter other than in that he hurts in ways others don't. That's what multicultural integration is about, allowing people from a different cultural background to share without distinction, other than that they mustn't become disproportionately weighted in the direction of their own culture, applying the same norms to allow everyone else to be who they are as well. Sounds a bit high-falutin', but what it means is that if the rest of us are prepared to allow Islamic fundamentalists to be fundamentalists, the quid pro quo is that they must also allow anyone else not to be. That's something they have problems with. The reference baseline is the Law, they must remain within it.
Now, addressing Keith's concern, if some Muslims have taken to sexual abuse, that is outside the Law. Only a few do, and the answer is for the remainder to identify them and ostracise them, turning them in to the Law. A similar debate exists if you substitute Roman Catholic for Muslim. In both instances, if you're inside the culture with the problem, you're in a far better position to identify the people causing the problem than the rest of us are. The key is to remember whatever your faith, all it takes for the vitory of evil is for good men to do nothing.

Subject: RE: BS: UK street grooming gangs.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 06:33 AM

Hey! Let's all join Keith in finding ways to blame a whole section of society for something unrelated!

Hey! I have never, ever started a discussion on this subject.
Jim had already started this one within the Islamic Radicalism thread!
I just moved it to save that thread (with his blessing).

Jim denies any over-representation in this specific crime.
Do you Musket?

Subject: RE: BS: UK street grooming gangs.
From: GUEST,LK867
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 06:41 AM

Michael I agree that such draconian customs and systematic abuse is abhorrent and stomach churning. Never the less, if it is going on in Britain, then it is up to those within these communities to reject them and inform the police. There are many aspects of British law that were introduced to protect minorities that are open to abuse and can be manipulated.

Fortunately we have never had experience with rape gangs over here, so I base my knowledge on media reports. The government needs to make an example of these involved in such attacks and ignore pressure groups and the misguided well intended.

Subject: RE: BS: UK street grooming gangs.
From: Musket
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 06:44 AM

I deny that you speak sense Keith.

Normal people don't fall for all this "do you deny" rubbish. Shallow people try to put words in peoples' mouths in order to cover their own shameful opinions, and I see nothing in this thread to alter my view.

Now.. One thing I do know is that a thread starts with an original post, known affectionally as the OP. By scrolling up to it, you can see who started the thread on the subject.

"Hey! I have never, ever started a discussion on this subject."

I feel that if I said what I usually say when Keith gets caught with his trousers down, this time the moderators may even agree with me?

Subject: RE: BS: UK street grooming gangs.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 07:00 AM

I just moved an existing discussion from a thread where it did not belong to here.
I really have never started any discussion on this.

Can you really not tell us if you think there is a significant over-representation or not?
Why?

Subject: RE: BS: UK street grooming gangs.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 07:01 AM

I have no reason to believe that over-representation is anything but a fact. What I am questioning is why it is so. I have given 4 possible options so far. I am sure there are more and some are more likely to be contributory factors than others!

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: UK street grooming gangs.
From: GUEST,LK867
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 07:12 AM

A good article on the subject in the Independent.
a href="http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/asian-grooming-why-we-need-to-talk-about-sex-7734712.html">http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/asian-grooming-why-we-need-to-talk-about-sex-7734712.html

Subject: RE: BS: UK street grooming gangs.
From: GUEST,LK867
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 07:14 AM

Sorry if I made a Horlicks of giving that link in previous post.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/asian-grooming-why-we-need-to-talk-about-sex-7734712.html

Subject: RE: BS: UK street grooming gangs.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 07:20 AM

That's the same one that Keith gave earlier on.

I think there is a communication problem on Mudcat :-)

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: UK street grooming gangs.
From: GUEST,LK867
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 07:21 AM

Sorry Dave, I didn't see the earlier one. I just looked it up to get a better understanding of the subject and found it enlightening.

Subject: RE: BS: UK street grooming gangs.
From: bobad
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 07:53 AM

Musket and Carroll will be calling Imam Karmani an Islamophobe.

Subject: RE: BS: UK street grooming gangs.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 09:03 AM

I wasn't going to become involved in this because it really has been gone over ad nauseum - I really have wasted enough time arguing with neanderthals   
There has never been a cultural link established between Muslims and under-age sex and trafficking,and all those involved in the problem have continually made that point - police, judiciary, social workers.... even Jack Straw.-
If high moral standards within their own community can be considered 'a problem', then perhaps the indigenous community be taking an inward look at their own situation.
There are a million and a half Muslim Pakistanis living in Britain today - the Muslim criminals number in the lower hundreds - you would have to doctor any set of figures to make this "over-representation" by any stretch of the imagination.
If it were a "cultural issue" the problem would exist wherever there are Muslims; as it is, it exists in the poorer, most deprived areas of Britain, and goes with poor housing, lack of facilities, high unemployment, low esteem.... and all the other factors that contribute
to 'sink' communities.
One of the problems of assessing all this has been that, while underage sex is a crime, the North of England police, in particular who were fully aware of its existence in some areas, did not act on it because it was consensual and not considered serious enough to act upon - it was the tabloid press who made it a Muslim issue.
one of the great 'attention grabbers' was the term "easy meat", used to describe Muslim men's attitudes to Western women.
In the 80s I worked as an electrician re-wiring London pubs.
Between the hours of 12 and 2 the room I used to store my tools and gear doubled up as an (un)dressing room for the strippers who were employed to entertain the local clientele.
Many of the girls in South London came from the local school and would use their dinner breaks to make a few quid.
They would be bought drinks at the bar, and on a number of occasions I saw that members of the staff, and some of the favoured regulars were allowed to take them upstairs, no doubt, for a fatherly heart-to-heart!   
Easy meat? - look to thyself!!   
Nowadays there are probably far more Eastern European pimps overall, than there are Asians.
Anybody withing to prove "over-representation", and link it to any particular race or culture is going to either take the whole of Britain into consideration, or take each separate community one by one and examine all the pertaining circumstances.
In the fifties it was the 'over-endowed' West Indians who were lusting after our white women - now the heirs of Powell have found a new target for their hatred.
Over-representation, my arseum!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK street grooming gangs.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 09:32 AM

There was a big ring convicted from Oxford, so not just the deprived North Jim.

Many victims were orphans from Barnado's Homes.
Martin Narey, the former head of Barnardo's, said street trafficking of young girls in northern towns appeared to be "overwhelmingly carried out by Asian men."

"Narey said he did not know the reason for the "over-representation" of men of Pakistani and Afghan origin and rejected the idea they were specifically targeting white girls. He suggested that vulnerable girls on the streets were more likely to be white, while Asian girls subjected to strict parenting were more likely to be at home and so less prone to fall victim to such crimes.

He added: "I'm not saying this is just Asian or Pakistani men … [but] street trafficking in the north does appear be overwhelmingly about Pakistani and Afghan men."
http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2012/may/09/grooming-girls-asian-men-barnados

Subject: RE: BS: UK street grooming gangs.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 11:02 AM

Still a tiny number of people involved
Emotive descriptions of who the girls were really don't have anything to do with the argument - there are many thousands of young girls maltreated and abused by English, Irish, Scots..... whoever, men.
Playing to the audience really doesn't cut any ice.
Street trafficking, pimping, prostitution, incest..... it is all the same thing - abuse, and just isolating one particular branch of abuse in order to make it a 'Muslim' thing is about as relevant as counting left-handed or red-headed or men who speak with a lisp.... and claiming 'over-representation' of their particular group.
This abuse has never been shown to have anything to do with the nationality or the religion or culture of the abusers - if it was, it would be present throughout all the Muslin communities in Britain
The vast majority of all sexual crimes in Britain are committed by the indigenous British - does that make sexual crime a 'culturally implanted' British crime?
You want to make a 'cultural' point, do so with statistics, not isolated cases of criminality.
Now - if you have nothing new to add - it's far to nice a day here regurgitating things that have been pointed out dozens of times in the past, for the benefit of a Little Englander
The New Zealand flax is calling for a hacksaw.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK street grooming gangs.
From: GUEST,LK867
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 11:35 AM

As I said, we have no experience of it over here, I suppose the antics of the Catholic Church and Kincora are our shame.

Young girls drunk on the streets at weekends are vulnerable I agree, maybe some of these men coming into the country see them as available.

Subject: RE: BS: UK street grooming gangs.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 12:07 PM

I have an idea. Why don't we just let the "Britain First" fundagelical repressive loonies talk to each other. Human beings with an interest in their own and other cultures can go elsewhere.

We all like sex (at least I hope we do).

Subject: RE: BS: UK street grooming gangs.
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 12:48 PM

Not with children we don't!.....at least I hope we don't!

Subject: RE: BS: UK street grooming gangs.
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 12:50 PM

Especially not drug or alcohol induced, thank you...

Subject: RE: BS: UK street grooming gangs.
From: Musket
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 01:11 PM

Poo Bad just put "Musket and Carroll will be calling Imam Karmani an Islamophobe."

Why would I?

I don't call The Pope a paedophile? I don't look at the vicar in our village and think of the vicar I spoke to when I was inspecting a prison, (he volunteered he was in for fraud.)

What is an Imam in the sphere of my thinking? I know a few, mainly through hospital chaplaincy, and two in particular I can think of can't even agree on devising on call rotas, never mind philosophy.

What an odd post?

until you see who put it.

Anyone know any knob gags? Not much point in discussing a serious issue when Keith is trying to make links to a religion in order to make his own religion look somewhat superior and Poo Bad, having failed to find fault in those who think him somewhat stupid, tries putting things into the mouths of others in order to hate them.

Keith can't do it, so I doubt he can.

In the meantime, many girls in oppressive Muslim households are not allowed out to enjoy themselves due to the chauvinistic nature of many cultures who abuse The Q'ran to their misogynist thinking, so you get randy young Asian men and white girls from less oppressive communities in the same town. A recipe if ever I saw one. The funny thing is though, the statistics for rapists and paedophiles don't suggest Keith's over simplification or subjective choice of words as reflecting fuck all. Perhaps you may care to find within Hansard where Jack Straw pointed out his regret concerning his comments as they were taken out of context and as a seasoned politician, he was angry with himself for allowing the nasty elements of society to use him as their pin up.

err.. I think he means the like of Keith and Poo Bad, but I could be wrong.

Doubt it though.

Subject: RE: BS: UK street grooming gangs.
From: bobad
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 01:33 PM

'Why would I?"

Because he is saying exactly what Keith is and gets called an Islamophobe for by the likes of you two.

Subject: RE: BS: UK street grooming gangs.
From: GUEST,#
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 01:50 PM

from a Muslim Imam.

Subject: RE: BS: UK street grooming gangs.
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 02:05 PM

I am not able to see what difference it makes as to the ethnicity of the perpetrators.    when these criminals are caught , I would hope that their ethnic status gives them neither favour or disfavour and that the crime will be dealt with as it would if they were ethnic white, or whatever other background.
I would also hope that it would not reflect upon the majority of decent living people from their ethnic background.

Subject: RE: BS: UK street grooming gangs.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 02:20 PM

You know, for once I agree with potty Pete!

Subject: RE: BS: UK street grooming gangs.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 02:35 PM

Grooming is a specific offence. It differs from "statutory rape" (inaccurate expression in the UK) rape where the victim does not truly consent due to drugs or alcohol and other rape.

Subject: RE: BS: UK street grooming gangs.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 02:41 PM

Guest#, you have now duplicated both of my original posts!!

If you are interested in a different viewpoint, here is something by The Daily Telegraph lead interviewer.

"Rochdale, Rotherham, Derby, Oxford. The towns change, but the pattern is always the same. Gangs of men, mainly of Pakistani Muslim heritage, lure white girls as young as 10 with gifts and displays of affection. Next, the girl is raped as a way of "breaking her in". Once the child's spirit is subdued, and her mind fogged with drugs, she is sold for sex to multiple men at £200 a time. If the girl tries to break away, a gang member might threaten to behead her or firebomb her home. Mohammed Karrar, who was found guilty in the Oxford sex-grooming case this week, took a scalding hairpin and branded one girl so she would know she was his property. Later, the gang gave the same girl a DIY abortion. She was 12 years old. And this, all this, is happening in Britain now."

"Back in January, there was a profoundly disturbing case at Nottingham Crown Court. Adil Rashid, who had "raped" an underage girl, was spared a prison term after the judge heard that the naïve 18-year-old attended an Islamic faith school where he was taught that women are worthless. Rashid told psychologists he had no idea that having sex with a willing 13-year-old was against the law; besides, his education had taught him to believe that "women are no more worthy than a lollipop that has been dropped on the ground".

If the fresh-faced Rashid had picked up that view in a madrassa in Karachi it would be profoundly depressing, though not surprising. But the school he attended was in Birmingham, for heaven's sake! Although it cannot be named for "legal reasons", the school is voluntary-aided – mainly funded by the taxpayer. At this hugely popular Islamic school, where a majority of pupils are from a Pakistani background, boys and girls are taught in separate classes; a segregation policy no normal comprehensive could get away with."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/10060570/Oxford-grooming-gang-We-will-regret-ignoring-Asian-thugs-who-target-white-girls.html

Subject: RE: BS: UK street grooming gangs.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 02:43 PM

Should have started, Guest#, you have now duplicated both of my original LINKS!!

Subject: RE: BS: UK street grooming gangs.
From: GUEST,#
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 02:48 PM

Thank you Keith. I know. I was hoping some others would read it because it's obvious your antagonists haven't.

Subject: RE: BS: UK street grooming gangs.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 02:59 PM

Agreed Guest#.

Musket,
Keith is trying to make links to a religion

That is the opposite of the truth.
I have been at pains to say, repeatedly, that there is NO link to religion, yet you STILL accuse me of it.

You never criticise anything that I actually post, because you can't.
You make up shit that I have never said, and never would say, and attack that instead!
You are hopeless.
You just can not make a case against me without lying.

No wonder you always revert to just name-calling.
Hopeless.
You lose.

Subject: RE: BS: UK street grooming gangs.
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 03:02 PM

Yes you are. You can't just say Pakistani youths, you have to slip the word Muslim in

Why ?

Don't bother. I've already answered it.

Subject: RE: BS: UK street grooming gangs.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 03:06 PM

I do not slip the word Muslim in.
More made up shit.

Subject: RE: BS: UK street grooming gangs.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 03:11 PM

"Rochdale, Rotherham, Derby, Oxford."
Once again you are selecting random examples which are part of a figure in their lower hundreds - all criminals.
If these are "over-representation" what do they over-represent - the overall Muslim population of 1'500,000, the North of England, individual communities?
You are barnstorming by using emotive descriptions rather than producing in-context figures.
The quote of "over-representation" comes from an imam (priest), someone to whom one member of his flock would be over-representation.
No cultural link whatever to the actions of a miniscule group of criminals.
And the hate goes on
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK street grooming gangs.
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 03:14 PM

Keith -- re Musket: why bother? I would remind you of Jane Austen's character who refrained from arguing with some idiot, because "she did not think he deserved the compliment of rational opposition" Sense and Sensibility

I don't even bother to read Musky-bum's posts any more, let alone try to argue with the fatuous great conceited booby.

Regards

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: UK street grooming gangs.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 03:18 PM

CHILD PROSTITUTION IN BRITAIN

Subject: RE: BS: UK street grooming gangs.
From: GUEST,LK867
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 03:29 PM

Thank you Keith, I had no idea it was so organized or widespread. That court judgement is beyond belief, the family of the child should have lodged an appeal, he didn't understand the law of the country he lived in ? Christ had I pulled that stroke I would have got another 5 years for contempt !

Subject: RE: BS: UK street grooming gangs.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 03:31 PM

From your link Jim.

"For example, ever since projects for sexually exploited children were first opened by Barnardo's there have been reports of Asian gangs at work. This information was, very sensibly, not publicised by Barnardo's because they knew that their workers depend on the goodwill and support of the local population – also largely Asian – to gather information about the girls so they can help them. Publicly highlighting the racial profile of the perpetrators would inevitably turn the community against them. And, with great prescience, they guessed how the media would react. In January, Jack Straw spoke out about the imprisoning of two gang leaders in Derby in January for offences relating to child prostitution, pointing the fingers specifically at Pakistani gangs."

Subject: RE: BS: UK street grooming gangs.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 03:38 PM

I have read both and many other links. I have already said I have no doubt that there is an over-representation. I don't see how anyone can deny it. What I keep asking and no-one is providing the answer, is why is there an over-representation? Fair question I would have thought.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: UK street grooming gangs.
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 04:26 PM

Don't be silly Dave. Such questions don't further an opportunity to point at whole communities and treat them with contempt.

For example. A few posts up, Keith couldn't help reminding us they are Muslims, even though there is only a 82% chance that their parents are in the first place.

Then calls me a liar for pointing out what he said!

Michael seems to have a go despite saying he never reads my threads. Probably gets nurse to read them to him.

Best bit is, they and their partner in bigotry Bobad have decided what I think despite not taking into account what I type.

Why? Possibly because I point out what an odious set of cretinous bile and hateful lies they love coming out with.

The over representation is irrelevant in their eyes. Does it exist ? Doesn't it? Praise the pathetic Lord in any event. They are Muslims !!!

Subject: RE: BS: UK street grooming gangs.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 05:23 PM

A few posts up, Keith couldn't help reminding us they are Muslims,
Made up Musket shit.
I have ALWAYS said that religion is not an issue in this.

Subject: RE: BS: UK street grooming gangs.
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 05:41 PM

02.41. Quoting from a newspaper with no qualification.

You are pointing out they are Muslim.

You analyse every word I say yet when Akenaton, in his usual despicable style calls them for being Muslim, you agree with him.

Why is that? Why do you start threads about Islam and them link it to radicalisation and grooming? Why does someone claiming to be religious spew such hatred about religion?

Subject: RE: BS: UK street grooming gangs.
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 06:00 PM

That was me above.

Any chance of clarifying the demographic Keith?

Subject: RE: BS: UK street grooming gangs.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jun 14 - 01:45 AM

Musket, I have not agreed with Akeneaton.
The newspaper I quoted was factually correct.
I have always made clear that religion is not an issue in this.

Any chance of clarifying the demographic Keith?

Yes.
The most over-represented demographic is British Pakistani.
Any chance of clarifying your position on that?
You refused to answer earlier.
If you will not state your position and have it debated, what are you doing here?
Just trying to smear me with false accusations.

Subject: RE: BS: UK street grooming gangs.
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 24 Jun 14 - 01:52 AM

There's only one of us stated a position and it isn't you.

You keep denying yours soon after stating it.

zzzzzz

Subject: RE: BS: UK street grooming gangs.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jun 14 - 01:55 AM

You keep denying yours soon after stating it.

Will you give an example?
Of course not!
It is just more made up Musket shit.

Any chance of clarifying your position on the over-representation?
You refused to answer earlier.
If you will not state your position and have it debated, what are you doing here?
Just trying to smear me with false accusations.

Subject: RE: BS: UK street grooming gangs.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jun 14 - 03:21 AM

"From your link Jim."
and again - you are taking out of context, the few cases highlighted by the press to make a general point
The point of the study is that there are no clear cut conclusions to be drawn from the available statistics and that the problem is not Muslim gangs but other, far more complex issues - poverty, low esteem and expectation..... and a host of other factors.
This is what you, and other racists do all the time, take bits of what you believe will back up your case and ignore the rest.
There are no statistics on Muslim pimping gangs - figures don't exist as to how many there are and how widespread the practice is.
All we have are the relatively small number of cases that have been discovered and brought to court.
All of those involved in detection, prosecution and research into the subject
have said there are no racial or cultural conclusions to be drawn from those cases.
What we do know is that Britain, up to a few years anyway, had the highest record of underage sex in Europe
UNDERAGE SEX IN BRITAIN
This only becomes an issue in the press when there are Muslims involved.
There are no up-to-date figures on underage prostitution, but in 1995 it was announced that the figure had doubled to 5,000 underage girls working the streets - 8 years later the BBC claimed that the problem had "spiraled out of control".
CHILD PROSTITUTION CRISIS
Nowhere do any reports include Muslims as part of the problem.
Once again, this only becomes an issue in the press when there are Muslims involved.
Are there statistics to show that there is a large percentage of Muslims involved in procuring underage girls for sex in Britain?
No there aren't
Are there any figures to back up your on-going claim that Muslim underage sex is a cultural tendency?
No there aren't
Are there reports of large numbers of Muslim men engaged in pimping?
No there aren't
None of this has stopped people like you painting a picture of Muslims being a predatory cultural group, which they are not.
As far as I can see, your entire crusade is based on a massive press campaign highlighting a handful of cases of Muslim criminals, while totally ignoring the situation of underage sex and prostitution as a whole.
At the beginning of the 20th century it was the 'Yellow Peril' - Oriental gangs kidnapping white women to sell them into sex slavery - the Fu Manchu factor.
In the 1950s the villains were the West Indians who were introducing "our" young white girls to drugs and using them for sex - "they've all got enormous penises and they prefer white women to their own kind".
Now, its Muslims
We've been here before Keith - you and yours are a historical phenomenon.
What exactly do you mean by "over-representation" - over-representation of what?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK street grooming gangs.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jun 14 - 03:52 AM

Musket, I started the thread but not the discussion.
Jim started it in an unrelated thread so I moved it here with his blessing.

Any chance of clarifying your position on the over-representation?
If you will not state your position and have it debated, what are you doing here?
Just trying to smear me with false accusations.

Hopeless.
You lose.

Subject: RE: BS: UK street grooming gangs.
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Jun 14 - 04:13 AM

Without going back on an agreement to avoid abusive friction that Jim & I have struck, some posts back on the Islam Rad thread I think it was ~~

I do not think it would be out of place to point out yet again that he is undoubtedly the World Record Holder and Unrivalled Universal Gold Medallist in the fine old sport of

=====Completely Missing The Point=====

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: UK street grooming gangs.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jun 14 - 04:23 AM

"Jim started it in an unrelated thread so I moved it here with his blessing."
It was not "unrelated" - the persecution of British Muslims has been cited as a cause of Islamism and any threat to Britain has been cited by a number of people who have written on the present situation.
You moved it from the other thread because of your embarrassment in being exposed once again as being a part of that persecution.
To suggest that you moved it here 'with my blessing' is a total lie - I accused you of using 'thread drift' as a way out of your embarrassment and said feel free to do so as it would be an opportunity to post my point twice if i wished to - that is an acknowledgement of what an unprincipled and dishonest individual you are - you may take it as a "blessing", if you wish.   
'Thread drift' has long been a 'get-out-of-jail' card for your stupidity.
The persecution of Muslims by people like you is likely to have been one of the main causes of any Islamist threat to Britain - if there is one.
You really are a piece of work.
You have the facts of Muslim over-representation - show us where they are inaccurate or misleading
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK street grooming gangs.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jun 14 - 05:22 AM

"Completely Missing The Point"
Is there an award for avoiding the point Mike
You'd be a cert
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK street grooming gangs.
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Jun 14 - 07:16 AM

Just out of curiosity, Jim:- What point do you consider me to be avoiding?

If it's your statistical one that we are only dealing with a minute minority of a minority, I do not dispute that fact; but feel that the point you are missing is that that over-representation occurs to a most statistically significant degree within that minority; that its social effects are baleful in the extreme; and that comment on this important matter was for far too long suppressed for unworthy and cowardly reasons, for fear of denunciation as racism the simple act of pointing out the existence of this phenomenon.

Minorities do not have to be large to be effective; that, I repeat, is the point I feel you to be missing.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: UK street grooming gangs.
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Jun 14 - 08:29 AM

Ian, do you have any evidence that the post was written by Keith?
Why do you not consider responding to the points raised in the post, rather than attacking the person you presume to be writing it?

Subject: RE: BS: UK street grooming gangs.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jun 14 - 09:56 AM

Jim, you just said,"To suggest that you moved it here 'with my blessing' is a total lie"

Please feel free to open up another thread - it will be an ideal opportunity to say what I have to say twice.

You link, "CHILD PROSTITUTION" did not say there was no over-representation.
It said that there was, but best not to talk about it because it might offend the community.
I think honesty is best.

the persecution of British Muslims has been cited as a cause of Islamism

Cited by who?
I think that extremely unlikely.
Made up probably.

Subject: RE: BS: UK street grooming gangs.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jun 14 - 10:52 AM

CHILD PROSTITUTION CRISIS
Nowhere do any reports include Muslims as part of the problem.

Yes they do but the date on that report was Sunday, 29 July, 2001 !!

The pimping gang mentioned is clearly one that Cryer and others were dealing with.

Subject: RE: BS: UK street grooming gangs.
From: Thompson
Date: 24 Jun 14 - 11:12 AM

Alas! I opened this thread with eager anticipation, hoping to find where in Crewe or Chester or Liverpool or London, on my next trip over, I could hang around the streets and be pounced on by a group of hard-eyed youths who would do my nails, and perhaps, if I were lucky, plait my hair into attractive corn rows.

Subject: RE: BS: UK street grooming gangs.
From: Musket
Date: 24 Jun 14 - 12:15 PM

Not sure what Akenaton is talking about, but as he is moaning and using the name Ian, I assume Alex means me.

Perhaps he will recall when he decided that a guest called Seaham Cemetery was me, on the flimsy basis that we had met each other and we both know a wee bit about healthcare, (him being a doctor working at the time in sexual health.). I'm still awaiting an apology, even if I would throw it back in his face.

Keith joined in for that matter. I wonder if the moderators removed his posts?

Keith, your last post emphasises your conviction that "Muslim" is an issue. Your mask is slipping, you will have to be more careful.

Subject: RE: BS: UK street grooming gangs.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jun 14 - 01:49 PM

Keith, your last post emphasises your conviction that "Muslim" is an issue.

No it does not.
I have always maintained that religion plays no part in this.
I never raise it.
That was a Jim quote silly!

Subject: RE: BS: UK street grooming gangs.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Jun 14 - 01:51 PM

I am pondering the fact that at a certain university at which I used to lecture, another lecturer used to teach a course based on the concept of "the other" in law. If the course were still being taught I might well suggest this thread (and some of the others closely associated with our resident Islamophobes and brownophobes) for student study.

Subject: RE: BS: UK street grooming gangs.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Jun 14 - 01:52 PM

PS - and LGBTQophobes

Subject: RE: BS: UK street grooming gangs.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jun 14 - 02:01 PM

"The pimping gang mentioned is clearly one that Cryer and others were dealing with."
Nobody suggested there weren't Muslims, Germans Serbo-Croats or Martians involved - just that nobody involves the race, religion or country of origin in any way a significant factor in the statistics - we leave that to you agenda-benders.
You are now accusing those people involved of lying or hiding the facts from us   
"It said that there was, but best not to talk about it because it might offend the community."
Yous suggestion is that those working with victims would rather put them at risk rather than offending the community - then why should we believe people who hold responsible positions yet behave in such a despicable manner.
You have based your entire 'implant' case on - by your own description, cowards, deceivers and liars whose word cannot be relied on and have covered up the truth.
Jay-sus!!
"To suggest that you moved it here 'with my blessing' is a total lie".
As it was - my hopefully disparaging comment on your announcement was preceeded by one on your use of thread drift
"Attacks on Muslims nothing to do with Islamism or radicalism - my, my - more "thread-drift, always a sign of desperation - having painted yourself into another corner, "all for England, thread-drift and Saint George".
Please feel free to open up another thread - it will be an ideal opportunity to say what I have to say twice."
That was not "my blessing" - it was my contempt.
You persistently tryy to bail yourself out of hot water with such tactics - last time Tink joined you in this unsavoury practice.
It has become as inevitable as Cameron'e 'friend' not getting banged-up for phone hacking.
"Cited by who?"
It has been a running suggestion that the causes of discontent among Muslim youth is due to the treatment Muslims have received over generations - the surprise being that they have not done anything about it before now.
It was first raised as a possibility ten years ago and has been under constant discussion since.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/3586421.stm
Do you really believe your petrol-through-the-letterbox inspiring racism is not going to create a backlash eventually?
"What point do you consider me to be avoiding? "
Just about all of them that doesn't lead to the conclusion that there is a holy war which threatens to engulf Britain Mike
I have asked sever times for your comments on Britain's and the west's culpability in assisting the rise of Islam by encouraging certain 'friendly' Islamists rather than deal with legitimate Middle Eastern leadership - you even asked this same question once before and I repeated my request.
It really doesn't matter - my question has become a rhetorical one as I can guess your answer without your giving it.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK street grooming gangs.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jun 14 - 02:26 PM

Jim, "Please feel free to open up another thread " sounds like you giving your blessing.

the persecution of British Muslims has been cited as a cause of Islamism

Complete tosh.
Nothing in your link suggested that.
Events abroad more like.

You are now accusing those people involved of lying or hiding the facts from us

From your own link Jim,
" there have been reports of Asian gangs at work. This information was, very sensibly, not publicised by Barnardo's because they knew that their workers depend on the goodwill and support of the local population – also largely Asian – to gather information about the girls so they can help them. Publicly highlighting the racial profile of the perpetrators would inevitably turn the community against them."

Subject: RE: BS: UK street grooming gangs.
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Jun 14 - 02:57 PM

I really am terribly sorry, Jim; but the rhetorical question you claim to be asking me has become so convoluted with hint and innuendo and verb-sap & verbiage that I haven't the least idea what it actually is. So whatever you '...guess my answer will be' can only be the merest speculation, as I can see way of providing any sort of answer whatever to any question, until I have at least some idea what the question is...

But let it pass. Let it pass. My poor old head is beginning to spin like a teetotum

wheeeee☹wheeeeeeeee

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: UK street grooming gangs.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jun 14 - 03:34 PM

"Jim, "Please feel free to open up another thread " sounds like you giving your blessing."
Only if you ignore the rest of what I've written - which you carefully removed before putting it up again - not the first time - gon and ask Jack Straw - he'll confirm it.
"Complete tosh."
Course it is Keith - these people know matter than to stand up to their superiors, don't they?
"From your own link"
So you accept that it i right to hide essential facts from the public and in doing so, allow these Muslim gangs to go unnoticed.
Give us a break Keith - not one of them has ever made a cultural connection of any significance to these tiny gangs of crimals being anything more than criminals - whatever community they come from.
If they had deliberately hidden significant facts they would have been guilty in the complicity in the crimes - whatever their reason.
They have yet to say if there is any significance - they have all said it would be wrong to draw real or cultural conclusions for the information available - as have the police and judiciary
Can't have it both ways - they are reliable witnesses or they are liars and dissemblers - take your pick.
You seem to be in the same cleft stick you were when it was pointed out to you that it would be illegal to make your "implant" statement - then it was "shall I expose Britain as being an intolerant racist state or shall I lose face - you chose the former, of course
Now we have "shall I expose my "expert witnesses as liars or shall I lose face"?
Which is it to be?
You'll have to excuse me for a while - just nipping down to the bookies before they close!!
Sorry to confuse Mike - should be used to dealing wth numbskulls by now!!
Stop being pathetic
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK street grooming gangs.
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jun 14 - 07:10 PM

Straighttothepoint to place.

Subject: RE: BS: UK street grooming gangs.
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 01:26 AM

Try upping the dose Michael. Hopefully the head spinning will cease. If not, reduce the paranoia you have towards Muslim GPs.

Subject: RE: BS: UK street grooming gangs.
From: Musket
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 03:50 AM

This isn't about Muslims, is it Keith?


Keith?

Subject: RE: BS: UK street grooming gangs.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 04:35 AM

How many times must I say it Musket?
Religion plays no part.
Such behaviour is haram.

Jim, do not say things like "please go ahead and start a thread" if you mean the opposite.

Do not say, "the persecution of British Muslims has been cited as a cause of Islamism" if you can not give a single example (because it never has!)

"Cultural connections"
I have not made any.
The over-representation is a matter of fact and you make yourself ridiculous denying it. Cultural connections must be a matter of opinion and I leave that to people with an intimate knowledge of that culture.
I do note that they do link culture to the over-representation.

Subject: RE: BS: UK street grooming gangs.
From: Musket
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 07:39 AM

Read the guest Keith.

Your insistence on calling something a demographic just encourages the outrageous crap a guest is claiming.

As you are quick to find fault with anything I say, why aren't you taking guest to task eh?

What does the demographic consist of Keith?

Male?

Age range is?

Religion is??????????????

Best part is, I reckon religion has a lot to do with it. I am quite happy to point out that group interpretation of scripture leads to people's minds being fucked up. I'm more than happy to say that social restrictions based on what people we told to believe can lead to subjection of women and young men being told and believing that "infidels" don't have the same rights as them.

But as I don't want to see a local vicar in the dock for conspiracy when a lone man cleans his guns because Jesus told him to, neither do I point at good upstanding Muslim citizens and say their religion is a factor in their personal outlook purely on the basis of not liking bacon.

I know plenty of Christians who wouldn't shag a whore rather than have a wank, despite their bible telling them otherwise....

Likewise, not every Muslim acts in a stereotypical way. On the whole, they may not be quite so boutique as many Christians, but we need to be wary of what is called Islamism, not Islam. The confusion between the terms purposely allowing bigots to use it interchangeably.

Saying it is nothing to do with Muslims doesn't help when abuse of a religious text is the community control aspect that has caused the issue in the first place. It is to do with misplaced religion not religion. But to ignore the destructive power of religion gets you nowhere.

Especially when you mean to really eh? But only perhaps because you support the other team.....

Subject: RE: BS: UK street grooming gangs.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 07:53 AM

"Jim, do not say things like "please go ahead and start a thread" if you mean the opposite."
Do not tell me how to make my postings
You deliberately distorted what I actually said by #removing its meaning - a permanent trick of yours - as I said, go and ask Jack Straw - he'll point out how you removed his "testosterone fizzing statement in order tp prove all Muslims are implanted pervs
You have been given the article from the Guardian indicating how abuse of Muslims leads to extremism - if you want more, look for them - I have no intention spending time dragging up items you will then ignore.
To talk anout "cultural implants" if to make a cultural connection - or are there two definitions of the word 'culture in your statement?
And please stop producin "reliable experts" you are later are going to claim are irresponsible liars
Prat
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK street grooming gangs.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 09:02 AM

We should not encourage that "Guest" by responding.

Musket, I agree with what you just said about religion.
That is why I say it has no bearing on this.
When a person of faith commits an evil act, they do it despite their faith not because of it.

Jim, you have provided no example from Guardian or anywhere else to support "the persecution of British Muslims has been cited as a cause of Islamism."
No-one has cited any such thing.

Subject: RE: BS: UK street grooming gangs.
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 09:26 AM

In the Keith A of Hertford Vs Musket discussion, it is good to see them agreeing that religion should have nothing to do with it. I'm siding with Musket however is saying that religion has much to answer to in promoting and expecting adherence to repressive ancient thinking that leads to children growing up with an outlook that is contrary to the freedoms of movement and oppression society in general enjoys.

Religion is fine if a person willingly accept to be bound by a moral guide of their own accord, but children of Muslims in madrasses, children of catholics wearing wedding dresses in rituals and children of many religious parents having their genitals mutilated? Child abuse.

A court tells young men that their grooming was wrong, but an Imam and an ignorant father has been telling them otherwise for years; which should the poor buggers listen to?

Subject: RE: BS: UK street grooming gangs.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 01:37 PM

"No-one has cited any such thing."
Discussion of the the radicalisation of young Muslims has been under discussion for years
You have been given two exmplae - one from the 1990s and a more recent one.
As usual, you choose to deny the existence of such an idea rather than to reapond to it
A random selection, from acedemic studies, to church and lay journalism for you to ignore
Jim Carroll

Guardian 2009
The problems of widening economic and social inequalities also have implications for wider issues of alienation, disenfranchisement, isolation and dislocation that impact on how young men, Muslim and non-Muslim, might become vulnerable to the forces of political radicalism, and sometimes where the hate towards the "other" turns to acute forms of violence. The breeding ground for this is an array of local tensions, conflicts and exclusions, and when the frustration is negatively challenged by political ideology, the results can be very serious. The localised forces that impact upon the disaffection of young people, often but not always men, are similar and as significant – they are essentially societal. This is the impact of globalisation on local area communities, with Muslim additionally affected by notions of the ummah (the global Muslim community – real or imagined). It is important to note, at a time when the attacks are once again in our minds, that all of the 7/7 bombers originated from impoverished backgrounds, as the sons of first- and second-generation migrant workers who came to live and work in the north only to find acute de-industrialisation a mere decade after their arrival. Many of those who have been arrested for alleged or actual crimes and the relative few who have ultimately been sentenced have also come from precisely these relatively poorer areas of the country.
Guardian

Young Muslim Radicalisation

Myths of Radicalisation

Conclusion
In the British case, socio-economic and political deprivation as far as Muslims are concerned is an everyday reality. In addition, theological vacuum is also influential in mak¬ing HTs discourse attractive to the young Muslims who suffer from also identity issues, exclusion, racism and discrimination. Moreover, British foreign policy which is perceived as unfriendly, to say the least, towards the Muslim world, in the eyes of the young Muslims only justifies what HT has been asserting so far. Lack of community leadership together with lack of intellectual and theological Muslim scholarship makes HTs otherwise naive and simplistic rhetoric virtually unrivalled.
Study

Media Commentary
Reyhana Patel, journalist and writer
There also needs to be a lot more interaction between Muslim and non-Muslim communities"
The media don't help the situation. If you look at how they covered the aftermath of the Woolwich attack, they were demonising Muslims and were Islamaphobic.
Muslim communities in Britain want consistency in the media coverage. There are children being killed by Western soldiers in Afghanistan and there is little or no coverage about that. It makes people feel angry. There's no avenue for them to act in a democratic way, because the government doesn't listen to Muslim communities.
This could lead vulnerable people into radicalisation. It's not the only avenue, but it's a danger for some.
The government's Prevent policy to tackle extremism was rushed through after 7/7 and it has proved to be ineffective in combating home-grown terrorism at the community level.
They need to tackle the root causes of radicalisation in communities through more community cohesion, employment opportunities and a way out of the communities people are trapped in.
There also needs to be a lot more interaction between Muslim and non-Muslim communities through more education and awareness.
There are extremist voices on both sides, and they're the ones getting heard in the media.
There's no middle ground. The real voices aren't coming out and that's what needs to be tackled.

Adverse social conditions such as racism, bad experiences in the Criminal Justice System and deprivation contribute to alienation from society and from churches associated with its value system. Rev Ade Omooba, Co-Chair of NCLF- A Black Christian Voice, together with colleague Fred Williams, said that the recent killing in Woolwich of Drummer Lee Rigby, is symptomatic of common occurrences in other parts of the world, like their own experience in Nigeria. Omooba and Williams told the meeting that these atrocities are a consequence of people being radicalised and losing respect for life. They spoke of church congregations, and community employment / enterprise projects in South London founded on the Christian Gospel which did not see young blacks as good or bad, Christian or Muslim but primarily as 'human beings'. The place to start, Omooba said, was seeing 'God in everyone'.
Church view

Racism and radicalisation

Subject: RE: BS: UK street grooming gangs.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jun 14 - 02:09 AM

Thanks Jim.
Few countries are more tolerant of other cultures than Britain, so I do not accept that the low level of anti-Muslim racism here contributes much to radicalisation.
All the commentary has been about foreign policy and events elsewhere.
That is what all those interviewed jihadists say.

Those obscure reports of yours did cite racism, so you were right, but not prominently.

No-one has ever cited anything related to the street grooming controversy as a factor in radicalisation so it should not be discussed in that thread and I was completely justified to move it here.

Remember that you have already hijacked dozens of totally unrelated threads to discuss this.
You are utterly obsessed by it.
Now there is somewhere for it to go every time you do it.

Subject: RE: BS: UK street grooming gangs.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jun 14 - 03:34 AM

"Few countries are more tolerant of other cultures than Britain, "
Simply not true.
RACISM IN BRITAIN
To suggest that British racism does not affect the way in which the victims of that racism behaves is utter nonsense
The links and quotes I gave ate a tiny sample of the discussion that has taken place on the sunject - it tok me about 20 minutes to scan them down and link them.   
Don't you dare accuse me of hijaking threads - whenever you get into trouble you scream thread-drift - I have never at any time raised an issue which I don't believe to be related to the topic under discussion
To claim that I or anybody has is to attempt to censor the discussion, which you persistently do.
You have now done it for the last time, as far as I am concerned
YOU HAVE NO AUTHORITY WHATEVER TO MANIPULATE THREADS TO SUIT YOUR OWN AGENDA AND YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO DECIDE ON BEHALF OF OTHERS WHAT IS AND WHAT IS NOT RELEVANT - YET YOU PERSISTENTLY DO.
You do not own this forum - stop behaving as if you do - you contribute little enough to it without your interfering with the contributions of others.
And if you think you can close discussions elsewhere by moving them to other threads - just try it again (the pair of you)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK street grooming gangs.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jun 14 - 04:09 AM

"British Social Attitudes (BSA) survey, obtained by the Guardian, shows that after years of increasing tolerance, the percentage of people who describe themselves as prejudiced against those of other races has risen overall since 2001."

It is still the most tolerant country in the world.
Those interviewed Jihadis never complain about racism here.
They are well educated and integrated.
There are very few incidents of such racism that make the news.

Subject: RE: BS: UK street grooming gangs.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jun 14 - 04:42 AM

"It is still the most tolerant country in the world."
Stupid generalisation - how the **** do you know
I have never encountered the amount of racism in Ireland in the forty years I have visited here than I met wit in one week in London
Give us a break
"Those interviewed Jihadis never complain about racism here."
They probably didn't mention what car they drove or which school they went to - stupid
"There are very few incidents of such racism that make the news."
Which is part of racism in Britain - nowadays the onlt crimes to make the news are those committed by Muslims.
You have the statistics - deal with them - not your own fantasies of "this green and happy land set in a silver sea".
Little Britain rides again
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK street grooming gangs.
From: Musket
Date: 26 Jun 14 - 04:55 AM

I always find it somewhat ironic that one newspaper commissions a survey to see how other newspapers shape opinion.

2001. I wonder what event in a foreign country, by foreigners from another country got the newspapers to link terrorism with vast numbers of our communities?

The UK can be a very nasty place to be. Jim has a point. After all, just looking at the unashamed bigotry and hatred spewing from some members on this website can make normal people feel queezy.

Your tacit support of them does you no favours Keith. It really doesn't.

Subject: RE: BS: UK street grooming gangs.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Jun 14 - 04:57 AM

I'd expect to find, in Ireland, racial prejudice against the English. I know Olly is not actually in Ireland, but his posts are an example. I also remember Divis Sweeny.

I'd accept that there is a lot of casual racism in the UK. My girlfriend is of Nigerian parentage and most of her friends are of some parentage from the African continent, so I am getting to see more of what I do not necessarily see when I am alone or with others of my skin colour. I am also getting to see more and more of "black on black" prejudice - the way that many pan-Afrikan people with paler skins look down on those with darker skins, and the way that some people of Arabic descent react to and deal with dark-skinned pan-Afrikans (particularly women with, as a Yoruba might say "good attack and defence").

It seems that the folk world does not do much of this. My girlfriend was very amused at a folkie thing we went to early in our relationship to find a (white) Scot with a very broad accent striking up a conversation with her on the ground that he and she were the only two foreigners there!

On the other hand, a female friend of hers who is without a steady boyfriend did take a quick look round at a recent festival and dismiss all of the men there because "they all look like Richard". Fair point, I suppose - no longer young, portly, with beard and tankard...

Subject: RE: BS: UK street grooming gangs.
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jun 14 - 05:54 AM

Even worse, they might have all sounded like Richard Bridge. Folk it may be, festival?

Subject: RE: BS: UK street grooming gangs.
From: bobad
Date: 26 Jun 14 - 06:01 AM

"just looking at the unashamed bigotry and hatred spewing from some members on this website can make normal people feel queezy."

Have to agree with you there, the antisemitism and Jew hatred from some posters can make normal people quite ill.

Subject: RE: BS: UK street grooming gangs.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jun 14 - 06:20 AM

Not such a stupid generalisation Jim.
On the French coast thousands of people, mostly Muslim, have been existing for months, exposed to the elements, waiting for a chance to risk their lives clinging to truck axles just to jump the que to enter Britain.
Friends and family already here tell them what a wonderful place it is.
Where else in the world does that happen?

But, this thread is about grooming gangs and I will not be discussing Britain's lack of racism here any more.

Subject: RE: BS: UK street grooming gangs.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jun 14 - 06:21 AM

"I'd expect to find, in Ireland, racial prejudice against the English."
Then you'd be on your own in doing so Richard - In forty years I have experienced or witnesses an act of hostility in the Republic - despite occasional provocations from visitors.
If there is a major problem here, it is towards Travellers, but that is a general and centuries-old one throughout the world.
The only place from which there are regular reports of racism, is that little spot in Ireland that still considers itself England, where there are growing attacks on the homes of asylum seekers - often linked to retired paramilitaries with time on their hands.
I believe anti-British sentiment by Irish people is a aprt of a tit-for-tat reaction that exists there, much is aimed at politicians.   
My late friend, Tom Munnelly, used to tell the story of visiting a pub in South Clare which was showing a (then) Yugoslavia v England match being avidly watched by by a roomful of Claremen - all screaming themselves hoarse for England.
At the end of the match, which England won easily (those were the days!), a minor royal was shown presenting a cup to the winners and a band struck up 'God Save the Queen'.
Simultaneously, and completely uncoordinated, two glasses sailed through the air from different corners of the room and crashed through the television screen .
In a couple of weeks time, this town will be heaving full of visitors from all over the world and of all colours and religions, visiting the Willie Clancy Summer School - some for the music, others for the craic and the late drinking.
I will be extremely surprised to hear of a single incident of racism or sectarianism - I've never seen one in forty odd years, and that includes the year when the street was adorned with black flags mourning the dying of the Hunger Strikers.
Hate is for politicians (and their adherents)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK street grooming gangs.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jun 14 - 07:57 AM

Not true Musket.
I have never started a discussion on this.
I have contributed to this and previous discussions started by others (usually Jim as now) on street grooming gangs and the over-representation that has emerged.
Is that wrong?

Subject: RE: BS: UK street grooming gangs.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jun 14 - 08:14 AM

"usually Jim as now"
What on earth are you talking about?
To my recollection, I have never started a thread on politics - I never started this one, neither did I 'thread drift' as you have yet to acknowledge.
Every single member has a right to bring in any issue they feel relates to the subject under discussion - you are invariably happy to discuss these issues until you fall foul of your own stupidity, then you scream "thread drift".
s you once said - after demanding that one particularly uncomfortable issue ceased, then drifted of on your own tack - "thread drift happens"
It is none of your business what we discuss and how we discuss it
Kindly remember that in future.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK street grooming gangs.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jun 14 - 08:18 AM

You started this discussion in the radicalism thread, and encouraged me to move it here.
"Please feel free to open up another thread - it will be an ideal opportunity to say what I have to say twice."

Subject: RE: BS: UK street grooming gangs.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jun 14 - 08:32 AM

"and encouraged me to move it here."
And you continue to lie about this
I pointed out the relevance of racism and abuse to Islamism - you have now been given ample evidence of that link.
You have been shown what my "encouragement consisted of - you continue to lie about it
""Jim started it in an unrelated thread so I moved it here with his blessing."
It was not "unrelated" - the persecution of British Muslims has been cited as a cause of Islamism and any threat to Britain has been cited by a number of people who have written on the present situation.
You moved it from the other thread because of your embarrassment in being exposed once again as being a part of that persecution.
To suggest that you moved it here 'with my blessing' is a total lie - I accused you of using 'thread drift' as a way out of your embarrassment and said feel free to do so as it would be an opportunity to post my point twice if i wished to - that is an acknowledgement of what an unprincipled and dishonest individual you are - you may take it as a "blessing", if you wish.   
'Thread drift' has long been a 'get-out-of-jail' card for your stupidity.
The persecution of Muslims by people like you is likely to have been one of the main causes of any Islamist threat to Britain - if there is one.
You really are a piece of work."
Do you have no self-respect? - you certainly have none for other members of this forum - pearl-less swine that we are!!
You really are a contemptible little worm
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK street grooming gangs.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jun 14 - 10:39 AM

I started the thread not the discussion Musket.
Jim started it, as he so often does.

Subject: RE: BS: UK street grooming gangs.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jun 14 - 10:40 AM

Jim started it as he so often does, and said, "Please feel free to open up another thread - it will be an ideal opportunity to say what I have to say twice."

Subject: RE: BS: UK street grooming gangs.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jun 14 - 11:14 AM

Returning to the grooming gangs, Mr Mohamed Shafiq, chief executive of The Ramadhan Foundation, a moderate Muslim group trying to foster better relationships with non-Muslims, said this,

"Mr Shafiq profiles the offenders as Asian men, predominantly Pakistani, who want easy sex and are prepared to pay to abuse girls as young as 13.
Of 68 recent convictions for on-street grooming, 59 were of British Pakistani men.
"They have a respectable life in the community and then they have their night life.
"Asian girls are not available to them and so they look to Western girls. They think they're easy. They see them as tarts who are there to be used."
He is appalled that the oldest defendant in the Liverpool trial was set free by police soon after one of his victims came forward.
"He was released and they just carried on," said Mr Shafiq. "They got more girls and they thought `The police can't touch us`. That's a scandal."

He also said, "This gang was the talk of the town among the taxi drivers. People were appalled because it's nothing to do with faith, nothing to do with Islam.
"For all that people like the BNP might want to stir things up, it's a fact that the vast majority of British Pakistanis find these crimes disgusting. They will be as pleased as everyone else in society to have seen these men convicted."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/9252003/Rochdale-grooming-trial-Mohammed-Shafiq-the-campaigner-who-stood-up-to-the-abusers.html

Subject: RE: BS: UK street grooming gangs.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jun 14 - 11:22 AM

THe pits Keith - the pits
Get a life
Jim Carroll