Tune Req: want to find tunes in odd time signature

Subject: Tune Req: want to find tunes in odd time signature
From: GUEST,swedish folk mandolin player
Date: 26 Jun 14 - 11:27 AM

hi mudcat forum!

i play a bit of mandolin and enjoy playing fiddle tunes from my hometown of orsa, dalarna (sweden) because of their (to me) challenging ruthmic patterns. i also enjoy playing any folk tune with odd time signatures - 5/4, 5/8, 7/8, 7/4, 9/8 (though not as much as the others) etc. i love getting the fun and the practice at the same time. so far i've played through "waterman's" in 7/8, all the french valse á cinq temps that i could get my hands on, and a couple of hebridean songs, along with some americanized versions of orsapolska (changed in metre from original 3/4 to 9/8). does anyone have any good tips of more tunes with odd time signatures for me to try? i'd be very greatful. i'd also appreciate tunes in more common time signatures with more complicated rythmic patterns.

Subject: RE: Tune Req: want to find tunes in odd time signature
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jun 14 - 11:32 AM

Have you asked at

www.concertina.net

?

Subject: RE: Tune Req: want to find tunes in odd time signature
From: Brian Peters
Date: 26 Jun 14 - 11:38 AM

Not what you asked for, but have you tried any old English tunes in 3/2?

Here's a good one: #6 is nearest to what I play.
If You Will Not Have Me, You May Let Me Go.

And here's a nice slip jig (9/8) - version #1 is good:
The Peacock Followed the Hen

Subject: RE: Tune Req: want to find tunes in odd time signature
From: Stewart
Date: 26 Jun 14 - 12:16 PM

Here's a common 4/4 with an interesting repeating rhythmic pattern
The Journey

and a 7/8 Irish tune - Road to Barga

and also Dave Brubeck and Stravinsky and others

Then there's the crooked tunes. Try this Zweifacher
Wirtshaus-Zwiefacher

Cheers, S. in Seattle

Subject: RE: Tune Req: want to find tunes in odd time signature
From: Jack Campin
Date: 26 Jun 14 - 12:40 PM

The 3+3+2 pattern in the first 3 of every 4 bars of "The Journey" is a common one in the eastern Mediterranean, "ciftetelli" in Turkish. Belly dancers use it a lot. It's also found in klezmer as the "bulgar" rhythm.

There are some very complex patterns in Ottoman classical music if you want to go that way.

http://gercekslessons.wordpress.com/turkish-rhythms/

I can show you where to find repertoire that uses those.

Subject: RE: Tune Req: want to find tunes in odd time signature
From: Stewart
Date: 26 Jun 14 - 12:53 PM

Jack, thanks for your explanation of the 3+3+2 pattern in The Journey
very interesting, I'll have to look for other examples

S. in Seattle

Subject: RE: Tune Req: want to find tunes in odd time signature
From: GUEST,Swedish mandolin player
Date: 26 Jun 14 - 02:02 PM

wow, thanks folks! here's much to try out already. no, i haven't tried concertina.net, i will look for more cinq temps there. i i had a quick look at "the journey" and it looked very promising. the irish tunes as well. any eastern music is interesting, i like that a lot though i don't know enough about it to search out specific tunes. again thanks, i have some new challenges now - though i never mind getting new ones!

Subject: RE: Tune Req: want to find tunes in odd time signature
From: Alan Day
Date: 26 Jun 14 - 06:05 PM

Have a look at the tune "Catharsis"
You will not be disappointed.
Al

Subject: RE: Tune Req: want to find tunes in odd time signature
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 26 Jun 14 - 07:19 PM

This is what you want, Swedish Mandolin PlayerEthnic Music Transcriptions, Mostly Balkan and Eastern European There are 2335 transcriptions, including Lesnotos(7/8), Ratchinetsas(7/8), Pajdusko (5/16) Gankino (11/16), Berance(11/16 or 12/16).

There are a number of the above mentioned zweifachers, and tons of Greek, Romanian, Turkish, and other stuff. The transcriptions tend to be handwritten, often made from old records or field recordings, or nicked from ethnic performing ensembles.

A lot of the recordings can be found on YouTube, or at a variety of ethnic dance websites...

Subject: RE: Tune Req: want to find tunes in odd time signature
From: Jack Campin
Date: 26 Jun 14 - 08:11 PM

In many of the traditions that use complex rhythms, the tune is only part of it. In Middle Eastern music, pieces don't simply have a time signature but a "metric mode", which is an outline of what a percussionist would need to do. So for the Arabic "sama'i" metre, the tune is in 10/8, divided (3+3)+(2+3), but it also reflects a pattern of light and heavy beats (e.g on the centre of the drum for the low, dull "dum" beat and the edge for the sharp, high "tek" beat: D--T-:DDT-- in the commonest form.

It can get even more precise. From a Turkish music theory book I have: the "duyek" metre is basically like a tango. It's 8/8, with the dum and tek beats in the pattern DT-T:D-T-.   But the *strengths* of the beats are also specified as well as their pitch: in order half strength, full strength, half strength, full strength, light. When you say you're going to do something in duyek, you're giving that degree of specific instruction to your accompanist.

BTW Latin American music can be even more complex, with the "clave" (metric pattern) specifying not just one accompanying rhythm but a multilayered, coordinated set of them. The now-missing Mudcatter "M.Ted" posted a great description here of just how complicated bossa nova can get (and he could actually play it).

Subject: RE: Tune Req: want to find tunes in odd time signature
From: Stewart
Date: 26 Jun 14 - 11:44 PM

Here's another rhythmic tune I'm now working on with my fiddle - a tango
The Singing Moon by John Miller.
Recorded by Ruthie Dornfeld (fiddle) and John Miller (guitar) on their CD: Noches de Fiesta

I can send you the score (pdf file) if you PM me with your email.

Cheers, S. in Seattle

Subject: RE: Tune Req: want to find tunes in odd time signature
From: GUEST,Tony Patriarche
Date: 27 Jun 14 - 12:08 AM

One of my favourite Greek folksongs is Lady Vangeline (there's a thread here for it). It's in the not-particularly-unusual time of 7/8. My arrangement for bouzoukis can be heard at MySpace-Tonitru-Lady Vangeline; I've also done rather romanticized choral arrangements. Happy to share PDF scores, contact me at [e-mail].

A folk group here in Victoria BC, Jamshed, specializes in Balkan music and has no trouble playing in 13/8 - I've heard them do it! Check them out on Facebook - they'd probably be happy to share some repertoire.

Subject: RE: Tune Req: want to find tunes in odd time signature
From: GUEST,Swedish mandolin player
Date: 27 Jun 14 - 05:04 AM

hey, you guys are very helpful, thanks! i now have a much better clue what kind of music i'm looking for. i'll be sure to get back to those of you who offered to share pdf:s, it all sounds interesting.

Subject: RE: Tune Req: want to find tunes in odd time signature
From: Jack Campin
Date: 27 Jun 14 - 06:31 AM

Here's a Macedonian tune in 25/8 I posted in another forum:

Dvajspetorka

This is another fairly typical piece of Balkan funny-rhythm dance music (Turkish gypsies, I think - can't read the comments in the video on this browser):

davul zurna (part 2 seems to have gone missing)

Listen to the interaction between the melody and the drum pattern ("dum" with the heavy stick on the right hand, "tek" with the light switch on the left). The drummer is doing much more work than the zurna player, and in that culture they are given higher status. You may be able to have a party without a melody player, but not without a drummer. This sometimes shades into downright theatre, as in this simple 7/8 tune from Cappadocia where you are left in no doubt about who the star is:

drum spectacular

In Turkish classical music, the rhythm often centres around the kudüm (small kettledrums), which in Sufi imagery symbolizes the continuing creative impulse of God underlying everything that happens in the universe (so don't drop a beat). You can see the kettledrums leading the group at 7:40 in this, where the whole group first plays together. As usual the kettledrum player is sitting dead centre.

Sufi music recital

Subject: RE: Tune Req: want to find tunes in odd time signature
From: GUEST,big al whittle
Date: 27 Jun 14 - 07:47 AM

try Davy Graham. some very weird rhythms - too weird for me...

Subject: RE: Tune Req: want to find tunes in odd time signature
From: Jack Campin
Date: 27 Jun 14 - 11:37 AM

Which Davy Graham pieces in particular?

I think he got much of his odd stuff from Moroccan music? Easy enough to find documentation on that these days, you don't have to travel 2000 miles south and a few thousand spliff-lengths skywards to investigate it.

Flamenco is the one I find really baffling. The time signature is pretty near always 12/8 but the internal subdivisions and accents are all over the map.

Subject: RE: Tune Req: want to find tunes in odd time signature
From: Mr Red
Date: 27 Jun 14 - 12:34 PM

Cliff Stapleton plays some weird tunes on his Hurdy Gurdy, almost danceable! I have his e-mail address. He is well know on the UK French Dance scene.
Dave Brubeck specialised in them, Rondo a la Turk, Unsquare Dance, Take 5 etc all on his album Time Out.

Subject: RE: Tune Req: want to find tunes in odd time signature
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 27 Jun 14 - 06:59 PM

Your point is well taken, Jack-the underlying rhythms tend to drive rather than simply support the melody in a lot of musical traditions.

Subject: RE: Tune Req: want to find tunes in odd time signature
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jun 14 - 08:17 PM

In the English tradition, it's hard to say what the time signature in Searching For Lambs is/should be. Some people just remove the bar-lines completely and emphasise their interpretation/words. It's tempting to do the same with many other older pieces.

Subject: RE: Tune Req: want to find tunes in odd time signature
From: GUEST,John Foxen
Date: 28 Jun 14 - 09:41 AM

America from West Side Story is a good example of a 12/8 flamenco rhythm counted 1-2-3, 1-2-3, 1-and-2-and-3-and.
I mention this because someone sang it in a session last week but in a "Trini Lopez" version that completely lost the timing. Aaaargh.

Subject: RE: Tune Req: want to find tunes in odd time signature
From: GUEST,Swedish mandolin player
Date: 28 Jun 14 - 11:08 AM

update, anyone? i've now played through the tunes linked to - not the youtube material, i could never play stuff like that by ear :), but the rest. i thought "catharsis" was rather boring, but maybe there are arrangements of it that are more complex? i enjoyed the 3/2 tune even if it wasn't what i war after when i asked my question. i played through "the peacock..." a second time and slapped my forehead when i recognised it as "brose and butter", which i already play but shamefully failed to recognise at first. i liked "the journey" a lot and got inspired by it to make a tune of my own with a similar pattern. i enjoyed playing "the road to barga" but don't much like it as a tune, so only play it as practice. the zweifacher was too much octoberfest for my taste, but the site with all those handwritten balkan (and indeed other) music was pure gold to me. the handwritten scores were almost impossible to read, but i've managed to search out some of the same tunes in printed scores. so thanks for all the help, everyone, and if you should suddenly recall a tune in 13/16 or 23/8 or even just a really twisted polska with septuplets in each bar you know where to post them, right? /ridiculously grateful scandinavian

Subject: RE: Tune Req: want to find tunes in odd time signature
From: Jack Campin
Date: 28 Jun 14 - 11:17 AM

Hans Baken's fake book of Bulgarian music

Subject: RE: Tune Req: want to find tunes in odd time signature
From: Stewart
Date: 28 Jun 14 - 04:02 PM

Regarding "The Journey"
I just found out who composed this tune
Debbie Scott
She's a Shetland Fiddler. "She has written lots of good tunes but this is a little known one. I haven't heard anyone in Shetland play it. We got it from an old cassette tape called Before the Mast. Debbie is from the small island of Papa Stour. She is married to Ronnie Jamieson who is another good Shetland composer."

I think it's important to have this attribution.

Cheers, S. in Seattle

Subject: RE: Tune Req: want to find tunes in odd time signature
From: GUEST,Triplane
Date: 28 Jun 14 - 04:18 PM

Battle of the Somme in 9/8

Subject: RE: Tune Req: want to find tunes in odd time signature
From: Jack Campin
Date: 28 Jun 14 - 07:22 PM

While this isn't exactly a matter of time signature, a few of Conlon Nancarrow's player piano pieces put two voices against each other related by irrational ratios - instead of mere triplets, he has square-root-of-2-plets.

Study no. 33
Kyle Gann on Nancarrow
how to do human performances of Nancarrow

That isn't exactly a tune and it would take a lot of mandolins to play it.

More from the art music world...

Sing along with Brian Ferneyhough in "Bone Alphabet"
mindboggling score
finished performance (bloody hell, he's MEMORIZED it???)

Subject: RE: Tune Req: want to find tunes in odd time signature
From: Reinhard
Date: 29 Jun 14 - 03:40 AM

As Stewart mentioned the Wirtshaus-Zwiefacher above, try the same musicians on their band Cara's Odd Rhythms

Subject: RE: Tune Req: want to find tunes in odd time signature
From: GUEST,Swedish mandolin players
Date: 29 Jun 14 - 04:17 PM

S in Seattle, thanks for that info! And thanks Reinhard for the link to "odd rythms", that's really good music even if i would never be able to play it :). Jack Campin - it would take a lot of mandolins and mandolin players not prone to nervous breakdowns to play that!