BS: Caliphate

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Sep 14 - 03:07 AM

The main Sunni Arab tribes in Iraq are now backing Iraq's new Unity Government, a new coalition has been formed with the objective of taking on IS and the US has widened the scope of what are viewed as being legitimate targets for air strikes. There are sufficient Iraqi and Kurdish "Boots-on-the-ground" and offers of additional troops by fellow Arab coalition states have been declined.

Sit back and watch what happens.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Sep 14 - 04:46 AM

The UN General Assembly and committees plus Jim, Steve and Greg always and only attack Israel.

Those who have to make real decisions in the real world understand that the real threat is Islamism not Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Sep 14 - 09:15 AM

Why Jews Are Worried...

And, of course, this has nothing whatsoever to do with the atrocities committed by Israel, right?

And here we go, once again, conflating opposition to the activities of the right-wing zionist Government of Israel with anti-semitism.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Sep 14 - 09:19 AM

the real threat is Islamism not Israel.

Unless, of course, you just happen to be Palestinian.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 16 Sep 14 - 09:29 AM

"Unless, of course, you just happen to be Palestinian."

The Palestinians living in Gaza, who are victims of the Islamist group Hamas, would beg to differ.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Sep 14 - 10:10 AM

Greg, some Palestinians are obviously a threat to Israel (suicide bombs, murders, tunnels, missiles, etc.) but I dispute that Israel is a threat to any Palestinians except in defence against all that.

Islamism really is a threat to the whole region and the whole world.
It should get more attention from Mudcat and UN, and Israel should get less.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Sep 14 - 11:13 AM

The Palestinians living in Gaza, who are victims of the Islamist group Hamas,

Yeah, right. So Israeli armed forces didn't kill anyone in Gaza.

Which parallel universe do you inhabit,Boo?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 16 Sep 14 - 11:33 AM

If Hamas hadn't fired hundreds of rockets and mortars into Israel there wouldn't have been one Palestinian killed. Why did Hamas fire those rockets and mortars into Israel?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Sep 14 - 11:38 AM

Do you inhabit a universe where all Gazans love Hamas Greg?
What about those Gazan men and women who were hooded and shot in the crowded streets after Friday prayers?
And what about the Caliphate Greg?
It actually is the subject of this thread and the subject of an unprecedented international effort against it.
Any views?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Mrrzy
Date: 16 Sep 14 - 01:20 PM

A small gesture, but I am not going to call ISIS or ISL or whatever the islamic anything. They shall not be linked in my terminology to the thing they claim to represent but which repudiates them.

And repudiate is a great word. I used to think it was redupiate and you did it to punish duplicity. Made sense to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Sep 14 - 02:09 PM

f Hamas hadn't fired hundreds of rockets and mortars into Israel there wouldn't have been one Palestinian killed

Please, Boo- that's simply one more excuse for Israeli imperialism. "But Johnny hit me first". How many Israelis were killed bu Hamas rockets, by the way?

My view? Get a life, FKWT.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 16 Sep 14 - 04:22 PM

Why did Hamas fire those rockets and mortars into Israel, Greg?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Sep 14 - 05:21 PM

Hey, Boo, review all of the atrocities Israel has perpetrated upon the Palestinians in Gaza & then get back to me, OK?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 16 Sep 14 - 05:26 PM

Just as I thought.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Sep 14 - 06:21 PM

But you still have no answer or facts to refute 'em have ya, Boo ?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 16 Sep 14 - 06:26 PM

Why did Hamas fire those rockets and mortars into Israel, Greg?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Sep 14 - 07:51 PM

Boo, Why did Israel indescriminately shell and anihalate Gaza hospitals, schools, & civilian neighborhoods resulting in sevaral thousands of dead civilians?

Of course, being Palestinians, in your world, they don't count.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 16 Sep 14 - 07:57 PM

Thank you Greg, you need not say more.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: robomatic
Date: 16 Sep 14 - 09:51 PM

Let's stick with Iraq and the Caliphate, we've already got a couple threads with the back and forth over Israelis and Palestinians, and it's full of good arguments and a bit of invective. Let's have some good insights into whether or not the land-holding group known as ISIS, ISIL, or IS, is indeed evil, a threat to the United States, and whether it's an over-reaction to be planning to bomb their asses, and whether or not there will inevitably be a need for 'boots on the ground' which President Obama has indicated will not happen.

As for the past, I'm wondering why the Iraqi Army backpedaled so fast when faced with the I S pouring over the border from Syria, why they let so much materiel fall into their hands.

As for the present, I S attempted genocide (see the Yazidi thread) and is basically enslaving the population of Mosul under their version of Sharia law.

As for the future, I believe they present at least the same kind of threat to the world as the Taliban, by giving room and opportunity for terrorists who wish to export their violence. And of course they are a re-infection point to Syria.

I think it's worthwhile to question what we can do simply by air attacks. I don't think it will be enough. Someone said we'll run out of F16s before they run out of teenagers in pickup trucks.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Sep 14 - 02:02 AM

By all means - "Let's stick with Iraq and the Caliphate".

As to insights into:

1: "whether or not the land-holding group known as ISIS, ISIL, or IS, is indeed evil

For my money it most certainly is, and I would peg that label on any terrorist group who thinks that they can impose their will and their beliefs on any other group of people at gunpoint irrespective of nationality, race, colour or creed.

2: "whether or not it poses a threat to the United States

IS in declaring the establishment of "their" Caliphate have openly threatened the United States, the United Kingdom and other states in the same way that Al-Qaeda did. They have taken hostage foreign nationals and murdered them. The US largely ignored and dismissed threats from such a source before and it learned to bitterly regret it - the same mistake will never be repeated.

3: "whether it's an over-reaction to be planning to bomb their asses

The people to ask about this are those currently and most at risk of suffering under IS "rule" - I do not think for a second that they would say that it is an over-reaction.

In Afghanistan after the Russians had quit the country the Pakistani ISI and Government wanted to put in place an Afghan Government that would do their bidding, an Afghan Government that they could control. Initially their hopes were pinned on Gulbuddin Hekmatyar (Who they had been grooming since 1975) but he proved to be a dead-end. So late in 1994 the Pakistani ISI created "The Taliban" under Mullah Muhammad Omar and set it on its way to take Afghanistan. Opposing the Taliban were the warlords who controlled the various factions of the Mujahideen who had fought the Russians. The Taliban backed to the hilt by the Pakistani Government, Army and Intelligence Services fought that group which came to be known as "The Northern Alliance" for seven years and failed to defeat them. It was this "civil war" that the US and GWB used to drive the Taliban and Al-Qaeda out of Afghanistan and they did it by providing the Northern Alliance with air power, the only "boots-on-the-ground" required were 1,200 Special Advisors - the combination of ~35,000 men from the Northern Alliance, ~65 combat aircraft from two USN Aircraft Carriers and those 1,200 Special Advisors succeeded in running the Taliban and their Al-Qaeda guests out of Afghanistan in 71 days - today the "leadership" of both the Taliban and Al-Qaeda are still hiding out in Pakistani ISI supplied "safe houses" in Pakistan.

As long as the Iraqi Army and the Kurdish Peshmerga forces are supported by US air power and supplied and armed by members of the international community, IS will get nowhere, particularly now that the main Sunni Arab tribes in Iraq are behind the new national "unity" Government. The method is being unveiled in the North of Iraq. Because of the presence of US aircraft IS cannot move (Any time they attempt to do so in any number they get hit) the villages, and towns they occupy are isolated and surrounded, then Iraqi or Peshmerga forces go in. The process is slow but sure. Merely the threat of air strikes inside Syria prevents any serious or effective IS attempt at reinforcement of their troops inside Iraq.


4: "whether or not there will inevitably be a need for 'boots on the ground'

General Dempsey has raised the point that IF he thought it necessary and it became apparent that US ground forces were required for specific operations then he would have no hesitation in recommending that course of action to the President and request the troops required. Personally I do not think such troops will prove necessary.

5: "As for the past, I'm wondering why the Iraqi Army backpedaled so fast when faced with the I S pouring over the border from Syria, why they let so much materiel fall into their hands."

In December 2011 US Forces left Iraq leaving behind it an Iraqi Army that was fairly well trained and competent. Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri Al-Maliki then started meddling with it and replaced many officers and senior commanders with his Shia factions favourites - these were the Iraqi Army Officers and Commanders who ran from IS Forces. That is now no longer a problem, as the Iraqi Army has demonstrated.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Sep 14 - 05:03 AM

whether or not the land-holding group known as ISIS, ISIL, or IS, is indeed evil

They obviously do not believe themselves to be the bad guys.
By our values they are, but I would say they are in absolute terms too.
Cruelty is evil and they revel in it.
Taking women and girls as sexual slaves is condoned in the Koran so that is less clear cut absolute evil.
Likewise killing people because of their nationality or faith.

Good or evil, they declare us to be their enemies and threaten us so of course we must resist them.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Sep 14 - 09:23 AM

They obviously do not believe themselves to be the bad guys.

Nor did the U.S. of A. when it supported dictatorships in the region for years, or when Iraq was invaded in Bush's Bogus War & etc.

Blowback. Chickens coming home to roost.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Sep 14 - 09:30 AM

So what, Greg. One can never start anywhere but here, where one is. All this feeble piddling about trying to apportion blame, instead of finding some way to deal with the situation as it exists, helps no-one, & is merely a distraction. What possible satisfaction are you getting from your everlasting "Yah sux-boo, tu quoque", for crying out loud!

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Sep 14 - 09:41 AM

Sorry, M, but if ya don't know and admit how ya got where you are today, ya won't be able to come up with a valid plan to deal with the situation tomorrow.

Just deja vu, all over again.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Sep 14 - 09:50 AM

Agreed that knowledge of history, and of how we got where we are, may be relevant in dealing with any situation; but don't think that quite the same as constant cries of ""U-dun-it": "No it was U..." ad ∞.

Still, take your point; but surely time to move on?

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Sep 14 - 10:19 AM

finding some way to deal with the situation as it exists

Well, first the U.S. needs to realize that it lost the war in Iraq quite some time ago. The situation there, pre-ISIS, was considerably worse that it was under Saddam, thanks to the U.S. And its probably a forgone conclusion that Baghdad will fall. And the civil war in Syria WILL continue, whether the U.S. "does something" or not.

The U.S. (and the world?) has apparently forgotten that it went thru this same business in Vietnam, with the same result.

The way for the U.S. to "deal with the situation" is to accept the fact that the best course of action is to do nothing.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 17 Sep 14 - 10:32 AM

"The situation there, pre-ISIS, was considerably worse that it was under Saddam,"

Tell that to the two million killed under Saddam.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Sep 14 - 10:37 AM

I don't have to "tell it" to anyone, Boo - its a fact, like global warming, acepted by about 99% of folks.

But not you, apparently.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Sep 14 - 05:09 AM

Australian security forces have made arrests over a plot from IS to snatch people off the street and behead them in Australia.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-29245611

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Sep 14 - 05:21 AM

Story in Independent today.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/australasia/isis-plan-to-behead-random-member-of-the-public-in-sydney-thwarted-by-australian-police-9739844.html

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 18 Sep 14 - 08:58 AM

Greg, Greg.....you are now stretching your false equivalences to absurd lengths and making a fool of yourself....thanks for giving me my morning laugh though.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Sep 14 - 09:05 AM

Greg, the atrocities of IS are more than just a couple of beheadings.
How little you seem to know about these things.

What is this "FKWT" thing?
I read it as Formidable Keith, Wise Teacher.
Or is the F fantastic?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Sep 14 - 09:23 AM

stretching your false equivalences

No equivalence implied, Boo - one was a much greater atrocity than the other.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Sep 14 - 10:05 AM

I have always expressed outrage when civilians are targeted.
You have been silent on the killings in syria that dwarf anything seen elsewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Sep 14 - 12:53 PM

I have always expressed outrage when civilians are targeted

Amusing. You can't apparently remember what you've posted.


that dwarf anything seen elsewhere.

Really? When was the last time you went to an occulist?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Sep 14 - 02:46 PM

How many dead in syria in two years?
How many killed by IS in just a couple of months?
What compares Greg?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Sep 14 - 02:18 PM

Syria Death Toll 100 Times Higher Than Gaza

Outgoing UN rights chief Navi Pillay slams her organisation for 'paralysis' on Syria as death toll edges towards 200,000; Ban warns UN losing credibility.

Still churning out resolutions denouncing Israel.
Very like Mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Mrrzy
Date: 19 Sep 14 - 02:30 PM

I said a while back that I wouldn't call ISIS or ISL the islamic anything, they give islam a bad name etc, and now the French have decided not to call them islamic anything either, but something like daesh which means something akin to "those assholes" in arabic? Blicky

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Sep 14 - 04:34 PM

Syria Death Toll 100 Times Higher Than Gaza
Where are the resolutions denouncing IS or Assad?
Where are your posts denouncing IS or Assad?
There are no Jews in Syria.
No Jews, .........

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Sep 14 - 02:39 AM

We had a thread about the horrific slaughter in Syria.
It ran to nearly 2000 posts, not one from you.
That shows how much you care about Arab deaths when they can't be used to attack Israel.

Syrian Jews.
"There were large communities in Aleppo (the Halabi Jews) and Damascus (the Shami Jews) for centuries, and a smaller community in Qamishli on the Turkish border near Nusaybin. In the first half of the 20th century a large percentage of Syrian Jews emigrated to the U.S., Latin America and Israel. Most of the remaining Jews left in the 28 years following 1973, due in part to the efforts of Judy Feld Carr, who claims to have helped some 3,228 Jews emigrate; emigration was officially allowed in 1992.[3] The largest Syrian Jewish community is located in Brooklyn, New York and is estimated at 75,000 strong.[4] There are smaller communities elsewhere in the United States and in Latin America.
Today, there are about 50 Jews still living within Syria, mostly in Damascus"

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Thompson
Date: 20 Sep 14 - 06:08 AM

The Palestinians have a homeland.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 20 Sep 14 - 07:59 AM

Anyone see Mock the Week? "I have an Israeli lodger. He has occupied three fucking bedrooms already."

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 20 Sep 14 - 10:46 AM

Would that Israeli lodger be an Arab Israeli, a Christian Israeli or a Druze Israeli by any chance?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Sep 14 - 10:46 AM

I don't get it.
Perhaps you misheard and it was a Russian or an IS lodger.

Israel only occupied land in response to attempts to occupy Israel, and that was half a century ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Sep 14 - 12:31 PM

I took in an Israeli lodger.
All the other tenants tried to break in to his room, throw him out the window and take it over.
He had to occupy the corridor to stop them, and they call him greedy!

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Sep 14 - 04:46 AM

Right now the Caliphate is again expanding its borders and occupying even more land, driving out tens of thousands of Kurds who are fleeing in terror before it into Turkey.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Sep 14 - 07:15 AM

Guardian today.
" But in recent days, Isis extremists have seized a series of settlements close to the town of Kobani itself, sending more than 70,000 mostly Kurdish refugees streaming across the border into Turkey.

A Kurdish politician from Turkey who visited Kobani on Saturday said locals told him Isis fighters were beheading people as they went from village to village.

"Rather than a war this is a genocide operation … They are going into the villages and cutting the heads of one or two people and showing them to the villagers," Ibrahim Binici, a deputy for Turkey's pro-Kurdish HDP, told Reuters.

"It is truly a shameful situation for humanity," he said, calling for international intervention. Five of his fellow MPs planned a hunger strike outside UN offices in Geneva to press for action, he said.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Sep 14 - 02:50 AM

1: "Well, first the U.S. needs to realize that it lost the war in Iraq quite some time ago."

Did it really Greg? How? IIRC the reasons the USA launched the invasion in 2003 were as follows:

a) Enforce Iraqi compliance to the Safwan Ceasefire Agreement terms and conditions - In doing that they were 100% successful

b) Remove Saddam Hussein and the Sunni dominated Ba'athist regime from power - In doing that they were 100% successful

c) Replace the Ba'athist minority regime of Saddam Hussein by process of democratic elections based upon universal suffrage - In doing that they were 100% successful

d) Assist in the formation and training of Iraqi national police and security forces capable of defending their country - In this they were successful up to a point. The Iraqi Army and National Police that were in existence between March 2008 and December 2011 would not have run from ISIS. Post US withdrawal in December 2011 the elected Prime Minister of Iraq Nouri Al-Maliki basically screwed up right royally, he was not a unifying influence, he believed greatly in sectarianism and favouritism, in the Army he replaced extremely capable commanders with mainly Shia friends and those to whom he owed "political" favours. These were the Iraqi Commanders and Officers who ran from ISIS - they like Nouri Al-Maliki have now all been replaced.

Remember on this forum who stated that the USA was there {In Iraq} to:

- Steal their oil - didn't happen
- Stay and maintain a permanent military base - didn't happen They left 100% when they were asked to.
- Use Iraq as a base from which to attack Iran - didn't happen

2: "The situation there {Iraq}, pre-ISIS, was considerably worse that it was under Saddam, thanks to the U.S.

That would not be the opinion you would get from anyone who has voted in any of the country's elections since 2003. It would not be the opinion held by the majority Shia community, the Madaan, or the Kurds. It would not be the opinion of the Iraqi business community Per capita income before Saddam Hussein came to power was US$12,300 - During the tenure of Saddam Hussein that per capita income fell steadily through war and mismanagement to just US$507 - Since 2003 it has steadily increased and now stands at US$7,100.

3: "And its probably a forgone conclusion that Baghdad will fall."

Greg let's make a deal, if you are so convinced that "Baghdad will fall" - you stop posting until the day that Baghdad falls, then come and tell me that I was wrong.

4: "And the civil war in Syria WILL continue, whether the U.S. "does something" or not."

Of course it will Greg old son and you will continue to ignore it, and the excesses perpetrated against it's civil population (Many of them perpetrated by those you support in their struggle against Israel). I do not believe that the US has stated that it would do anything or take any side in the civil war now currently raging in Syria - it has said that it would consider hitting identified ISIS targets inside Syria.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 22 Sep 14 - 03:06 AM

He was waving a four thousand years old tenancy agreement.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Sep 14 - 04:23 AM

No he was not.
Ancient History has no bearing on it.