BS: Caliphate

Subject: BS: Caliphate
From: Mrrzy
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 01:46 AM

Can they really just assert dominance over all moslems, and does that mean that the Palestinians actually have an islamic "home"land now?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 02:02 AM

It sounds like it might be very similar to the Ottoman Empire....only not as benign.

Nobody can "just assert dominance over all Muslims," since there is no structure, no heirarchy, no pecking order in Islam.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 02:29 AM

"Nobody can "just assert dominance over all Muslims," since there is no structure, no heirarchy, no pecking order in Islam."

Is that "in theory"? Certainly not in practice (I mean the bit about a "pecking order")

The self-styled Grand Mufti of Jerusalem who set the Arabs against the Jews and worked damned hard at keeping that pot boiling for his entire life.

The 12 Old Gits and the Ayatollah in Iran certainly make strides in their assertion of their dominance over their Muslims

Al-Sistani in Iraq and the Shia of Iraq.

And now al-Baghdadi of ISIS or ISIL or whatever you want to call it.

It should be handy having them all gather inside their Caliphate - any trouble - declare it the largest live firing range in the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 02:55 AM

I doubt my newsagent recognises it.

He'd possibly recognise Teribus's final comment as demonstrating that shocking inflammatory comments aren't confined to wannabe Caliphs though.

There's a disused camp in Poland and blueprints for hermetically sealed sheds if you'd rather gather "them" all there instead Teribus. Get them to form two queues, women and children on one side...

Or maybe your first idea of murdering them in situ might be more fun.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 03:25 AM

Teribus, that's a shocking and disgraceful remark, even if made only in fun. I agree with Musket, it's no different to the death camp mentality of the thirties. My husband is a Muslim, and inflammatory comments such as yours hurt me deeply.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 04:10 AM

My sincere apologies Eliza but I somehow doubt that your husband is at this moment in time running about in a "technical" crucifying, beheading and murdering people purely because they are not Sunni Muslims, or even if they are, are not considered "devout" enough.

The Iraqi native Sunni population and tribes of Anbar Province have seized on the coat-tails of this ISIS "invasion" in an opportunist attempt to regain power by destabilising the entire country and threatening all minority groups therein. The publicly declared and clearly stated governance of this Caliphate extends to all Muslims whether those Muslims wish it, or desire it, irrespective of the country where that Muslim community lives.

My remark was not made in fun and would apply to any other region whose inhabitants think that they can host terrorists with an international agenda and spread terror throughout the world by attacking indiscriminately civilian populations - No "Boots on the Ground" merely retribution - it seems to be the only language they understand.

Air power IS the key that will recover the situation for the Iraqi Government, God knows what MANPADS ISIS have acquired from looted Syrian and Iraqi armouries. Don't know about you Eliza I'd rather have those surface to air missiles used up by those terrorists attempting to defend their leadership rather than watch pictures of civilian airliners fall out of the sky on approach to airports close to heavily built up areas, because if that happened - that would hurt me deeply.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 04:24 AM

And i suppose you will feel obliged to heed the sabre rattling cry of Christian pastors calling on all Christians to hate Muslims.

After all, it applies to ALL Christians, not just the ones who use snakes in their weekly rituals.

Disgusting

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 04:41 AM

My husband is in fact Sunni. But, as you say, not a subscriber to the fundamentalist, terrorist brigade. I agree that these war-mongering extremists present a serious threat to world peace. But I don't see that herding them up and killing them is defensible. As with the 'Troubles' all those years ago in Belfast, it will hopefully finally be understood that reconciliation, dialogue and negotiation are the 'weapons' for defusing the situation and removing the Threat. This sadly takes time and forbearance, both in short supply.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 05:08 AM

It has been going on for well over a thousand years, and reconciliation seems further away than ever.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 05:17 AM

Well, that's flushed out the truth about KtheA and JerryTerry.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 05:54 AM

Musket I have never felt obliged to heed the sabre rattling of anyone of any persuasion and I most certainly have not heard any cry of any Christian pastor calling on anybody to hate anybody else - If I were to, I think that I would have the commonsense to ignore it.


Eliza - Who said anything about herding anyone anywhere?

As for the "Troubles" - The PIRA and the INLA had to be fought to a standstill (1985 according to Martin McGuinness) before their "leadership" admitted that their "armed struggle" was getting them nowhere and even then there are still "Republicans/Nationalists" who support the men of violence and are all for continuing indiscriminate bombing campaigns (325 incidents since 1998). Besides unlike ISIS/ISIL clear points of negotiation were evident for all parties/sides associated with the situation in Northern Ireland.

Here by the way is the ISIS/ISIL "roadmap" as seen 5 years from now - and that by no means marks the limit of their plans:

The Caliphate 5 years from now according to ISIS

Now putting that together might step on the toes of a few "Big Boys" in the regions shown:
China
India
Russia
NATO
USA by nature of Articles 5 & 6 of the NATO Alliance.

Generally speaking if someone says they are going to attack you, take it as read that they will, in which case it is usually best practice to prepare for it and forestall the attack by all means at your disposal.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 06:27 AM

Richard, what "truth" about me is "flushed out" because I referred to the Sunni/Shia split?
What in my post do you challenge Richard?
What would you have expressed differently?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST,#
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 07:12 AM

Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi is rabid. Why so little condemnation of his actions? Neville Chamberlain become part of the national psyche?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 07:18 AM

Indeed he is, guest. But that is not a good excuse to condemn all Muslims.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST,#
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 07:23 AM

I agree with you, Richard.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 07:28 AM

Teribus feels he would have the common sense to ignore calls from a Christian pastor to hate all Muslims, (unlike Robinson, first minister of Northern Ireland for example.)

Yet in the post above it, he asserts that the call for a Caliphate extends to ALL Muslims.

Presumably, Muslims don't have your intelligence or judgement then? Not even my newsagent it seems. Or many of my friends for that matter.

Bugger. I was getting on with them just fine too.

zzzzzz

Bridge is, and it pains me to say this, right. Flushing now and then stops the turds from floating and causing an unpleasant odour.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Stu
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 07:34 AM

"It should be handy having them all gather inside their Caliphate - any trouble - declare it the largest live firing range in the world."

Blimey. Did you actually think about this shit before you typed it, or did you just crap it directly into your computer?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 07:42 AM

what is a celiphate 

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 08:18 AM

From Ed's link.

"Is the idea of a caliphate unique to ISIS?

No.

Nearly all Sunni political Islamist movements dream of the eventual resurrection of the caliphate, most by political means, though jihadi groups call for establishing it by violence.

It has been the ultimate ambition of al-Qaeda, but while its late leader Osama bin Laden could once claim leadership of the international jihadi movement, he never went so far as to declare himself caliph."

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 08:39 AM

By the way Richard who is condemning all Muslims?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 09:32 AM

"Yet in the post above it, he asserts that the call for a Caliphate extends to ALL Muslims.

Presumably, Muslims don't have your intelligence or judgement then? Not even my newsagent it seems. Or many of my friends for that matter."

Ehmmmm NO Musket the chap asserting that his rule and that of his self declared Caliphate extends to all Muslims is one Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 09:47 AM

Dear old Musket.
He knows he disagrees but can not actually challenge anything we say, so he makes up things we have not said and attacks that instead.

You too Richard.
Can you challenge anything actually said?
Why did you decline to answer what "truth" had been "flushed out" about us from what we had posted?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST,#
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 09:51 AM

All anyone has to do is look at the proposed map of the so-called 'caliphate' to see that Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi is just a bit unhinged. He needs to be taken out of the picture asap. ISIS has murdered thousands of Muslims. They propose to murder millions eventually . . . hell, look at the damned map, because millions who live in the countries he proposes to have join his 'caliphate' will die as a result of ISIS imperialism. The sooner he's out of the picture--by whatever means necessary--the better. It is at present a Muslim problem. If he is not stopped it will not remain a Muslim problem, and there there be dragons.

Good to see you once again, Teribus.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST,#
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 10:14 AM

Keith, you should know better by now. Stop trying to provoke a fight. Richard is equally entitled to his opinion/POV. You may or may not like it, but he's a reasonable and often outspoken man. That may grind a few nuts, but so what? Your running fight with Musket carries over to any thread you both post on and it's always one or other of you saying "But he hit me back first." Give it a fuckin' rest, please.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 10:25 AM

Keith, you should know better by now.

Now, THAT'S funny!

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 12:53 PM

Everyone is entitled to a POV and I enjoy discussing and debating them.

Richard made a statement about me personally but refused to explain what he meant or why he said it.
"Well, that's flushed out the truth about KtheA and JerryTerry"

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 01:02 PM

Time I think to repeat my post/prophesy of 28/7 which was written before the Caliphate was announced.
Teribus is quite correct, these people(Islamist radicals0, are a grave danger to human life everywhere and should be removed from the equation....First things first, this situation has been brought about by Western "liberal" idiocy and a mistaken belief that "democracy" can be instigated in our interests in Muslim countries.
akenaton......28/7/14.


Although we are at separate ends of the UK political spectrum, I agree 100% with Keith's no nonsense evaluation of the situation in Syria.
The Islamists hate "liberal" western values, even more than they hate other branches of their religion and before long all will be absorbed into an Islamic Caliphate and moderate voices will be silenced.

This is a grave danger and only ideological fools like a few on these pages would consider support of such action.
These people believe all who do not support Islam should be exterminated.
All the Eastern dictators, from Saddam through Gaddafi to Assad, warned us of the danger from Islamist terror, but we preferred to believe that we could set up exploitable Western style democracies in these countries......The result has been chaos and terror.
Our politicians made serious errors in Middle Eastern policy and people like Blair, Hague and Cameron should be called to account.

In Russia, Putin realised the danger of Islamic terrorism having experience of fighting jihadists in Chechnya and Afghanistan, where Russia's defeat was assisted by the West.

Western "democracy" is NOT exportable.....our participation should be against all terrorism and not as political expediency.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Stu
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 01:29 PM

"Western "democracy" is NOT exportable"

There is no western democracy to export. What governments like the US and UK are doing is attempting to open new markets and secure new resources; political ideology fails to even consider addressing the long-term, big questions we face as a species and instead continues to involve itself in the petty squabbles of countries we've continually interfered with over the centuries.

There is a massive misunderstanding about the importance of Al-Sham and the wider Levant outside the middle east to it's people. This isn't some recent agitation that a few westerners can clear up by bombing the shit out of innocent people with planes and cruise missiles; this is an area with a complex history that goes back millennia. Modern civilisation was born here.

Memories are long here, and it's entirely possible here in the west we've become so short-termist we can't even comprehend how ancient history can still influence modern political and national disputes.

To paint this as simply one terrorist group charging into an area and imposing a brutal form of Sharia law simply shows how far people are from having the slightest clue what is going on.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 03:26 PM

That is an example of the ideological idiocy which I mentioned previously.

When are you going to learn "dear old Ian", that "personal abuse does not an argument make."   (OLD ED's book of proverbs and quotations"
(153rd edition)

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Mrrzy
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 03:41 PM

Oh come on, you guys. I started the thread because the CALIPHATE was claiming jurisdiction over all moslems, not because anybody here thinks anything at all about "all" anybody. Y'all are getting sidelined into pettiness about how people are phrasing things. Not that I blame Eliza for getting upset at the casual suggestion that they be treated as they would like to treat others, which is a bad idea whether your spouse is moslem, atheist, or a moon-howling heathen. Or you are. The upset should be civilized versus barbarian, not Don't say that about me and mine. Sorry, Eliza.
But that has nothing to do with the question, which still is, can they, the Caliphate, just *do* that? Apparently the answer is Yes, if they are allowed to?   Kind of like all Jews can consider themselves Israeli if they want to, which I believe they can?
Note that I personally do not consider that Israel or any nation on the planet has a right to exist because some ancient myth says they should... however I do accept the reality that Israel DOES exist. Am I going to have to so the same for the Caliphate?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 06:33 PM

""Western "liberal" idiocy""

An odd (and, IMO skewed ) assessment. The western conservatives pushed as much, or, even morde than the liberals to change and maintain sympathetic governments, where interests warrant.

It seems merely a red herring anyway. The main interest is power and economics, not installing any type of legitimate government, democracy or not While the excuse of establishing some type of democracy is often used, the actual goal is to install and keep a regime in power that sympathic to economic andipower nterest in control.

The Russians have been as guilty as anyone for doing the same in the past, but have had less resources in recent years, focusing more on resolving their own affairs. Maybe they are now on the way to be back on track.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 07:31 PM

"...it will hopefully finally be understood that reconciliation, dialogue and negotiation are the 'weapons'...." Alas, Eliza, not the kind of language an armchair squaddie like Teribus is likely to understand. I assume he fires his peashooter here because he's not allowed to play with guns any more. I suppose it gives him a buzz.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 01:27 AM

Peter please tell me, a simple "armchair squaddie", what are any of the fundamentalist, radical, Islamic terrorist groups prepared to reconcile?

Tell me, given their track record so far, what form of dialogue you are likely to have with them.

Tell me what are they prepared to negotiate.

Musket came out with this - 01 Jul 14 - 02:55 AM

"There's a disused camp in Poland and blueprints for hermetically sealed sheds if you'd rather gather "them" all there instead Teribus."

Musket, as Keith points out, loves to just make things up, then attribute those things to whoever he is arguing with (He does just argue, I have never known him to actually discuss anything or debate any point) then take them to task over something that they have never stated - It must make him feel very "good" - He also loves to compare apples to oranges.

Now then Musket, who was it that arrested, rounded up and herded all those heavily armed foreign Jihadi fighters together and "transported" them to that tiny strip of land that stretches from Aleppo in Syria to Baqubah and Diyala Province in Iraq? Or did they go there of their own free will intent on taking land by force and killing all who stood in their way? Crucifying, beheading and executing unarmed civilians who were not of their brand of their faith and those fighting alongside them deemed by them not to be devout enough.

Tell me Musket what threats have been made by this group? Or have they made none? What threats were made by those on their way to that disused camp you drew our attention to? How heavily were they armed? I most certainly know the threats made, long in advance, long before the event by the man who directed that that camp be constructed. He wanted to establish his own sort of "Caliphate" too didn't he? And you and your like were the ones who ignored the warnings issued by that man and the warnings of the "armchair squaddies" of the day and as a result over 72 million people died.

ISIS/ISIL put quite simply are dangerous, deal with them now, and deal with them harshly, while that is easy to do so - it may save millions of lives further down the road. Going back to your disused camp Musket remind us again how it came to become "disused"? What price was paid, what price had to be paid once you and your like discovered that the "armchair squaddies" had been right all along?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Mrrzy
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 02:03 AM

So, can they just DO that? (trying to get back to the thread...)

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 02:37 AM

Jim, do you still say this is not about religion?

ISIS leader quoted by BBC yesterday.

"Rush O Muslims to your state. Yes, it is your state. Rush, because Syria is not for the Syrians, and Iraq is not for the Iraqis," al-Baghdadi said in a new audio message on Tuesday.

"O Muslims everywhere, whoever is capable of performing hijrah (emigration) to the Islamic State, then let him do so, because hijrah to the land of Islam is obligatory," he added.

He also called on jihadist fighters to escalate fighting during the holy month of Ramadan, which began on Sunday.

"There is no deed in this virtuous month or in any other month better than jihad in the path of Allah, so take advantage of this opportunity and walk the path of you righteous predecessors," he said in the 19-minute audio message.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 05:02 AM

It is not about importing religion - it never has been importing religion and it never will be about importing religion - as you and your have claimed.
It is no more a religious war any more than The British Empire was a crusade to import Christianity, or the setting up of Northern Ireland was about setting up a religious state - it is about using religion as an excuse for warfare - as old as history.
Yu bloody born-again Christians really get up my nose - you are as bad as the worst fanatics
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 05:04 AM

Yes, we know that that idiot is saying that sort of thing. That he does so does not justify genocide nor does it justify a generalisation implying that all Muslims are fundamentalist idealogues one way or another.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 05:22 AM

But if you look at everything Keith, Bobad, Teribus and a few others write, Islamaphobia is the driving force behind their comments.

Has to be. Reason isn't getting a look in, so all you are left with is awful bigotry. Why do you think Akenaton has weighed in? He is comfortable and amongst friends for once.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Stu
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 06:45 AM

"An odd (and, IMO skewed ) assessment."

Ake constantly misuses the word 'liberals' for some reason known only to him. In fact, no-one is sure exactly who he means in his definition of 'liberals', although I suspect it's meant as a pejorative term to describe people on the left of politics, whatever that actually means these days.

The neocons have played a part in this fuckup, as the weapons they supplied to whatever side they support these days are now in the hands of the most extreme bunch. It's worth remembering they are only interested in protecting or promoting their vested interests so they can continue to make money.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Ed T
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 07:06 AM

Two options on what is meant: from the Urban Dictionary, (may be better than some folks sketchy definition of a liberal).

:))

""Liberal -
Somehow, it has turned into an insult, like the word conservative. Usually used as such by people who have never taken a political science class and don't know what the word means.

If used in a non-political sense, "liberal" simply means "a lot."I'd like a large popcorn with a liberal amount of butter, please.""

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 07:39 AM

He means people who fought for equal rights for women, gays and ethnic minorities. He calls equality a liberal plot.

Simple, clear and creepy.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Ed T
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 07:43 AM

""Liberal: a power worshipper without power.""
― George Orwell

Sound likd anyone?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 08:06 AM

I like the facebook meme suggesting that Tony B Liar thinks he should be the Caliph...

Oh, I also like the last couple or so of Musket's posts.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 08:21 AM

"Yeah Teribus. I make things up and give money to ISIS." - Musket

Well I knew you made things up, as you've been caught out doing that time and time again, but I didn't realise that you gave money to ISIS - Which one?

Islamic State of Iraq and Syria? (Very foolish of you if you do)
Institute for Science and International Security?
Integrated Student Information System?
Innovative Solutions In Space?
Institute for Software Integrated Systems?
ISIS The Bob Dylon Magazine?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 09:42 AM

nor does it justify a generalisation implying that all Muslims are fundamentalist idealogues one way or another.

Where do you see such shit Richard?
No-one on here implies anything like that!

But if you look at everything Keith, Bobad, Teribus and a few others write, Islamaphobia is the driving force behind their comments.
Has to be. Reason isn't getting a look in, so all you are left with is awful bigotry

More completely made up bollocks.
There has been none of either.
You can not challenge anything we say, say you make up bollocks and challenge that!
Hopeless.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 09:49 AM

Yes, we know that that idiot is saying that sort of thing.

So, he says such things because he is an idiot!
By your understanding of the issue, only an idiot would say such things in his position.
Also the leader of Boko Haram.

Perhaps they are idiots, but more likely all you leftie muppets have completely misunderstood everything.

Their followers, in their tens of thousands, all think they are sane, rational and right.
Perhaps they are all idiots.
Or perhaps, you are.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 10:00 AM

This from Keith over the last couple of posts;

"You cannot challenge anything we say"

Followed by

"but more likely all you leftie muppets have completely misunderstood everything"

Oh, I don't know Keith. I understand alright...

I especially love the bit about not being able to challenge anything "we" say. There's no need to. There's nothing of value to get excited over. If you said anything on an intellectual level, I might consider it but your right wing ranting, raving and foaming at the mouth drivel invites nothing other than ridicule.

I don't make up bollocks. I read yours and have a good chuckle.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 10:33 AM

"ISIS The Bob Dylon Magazine?"
Dylan surely - or has Mr Z changed his relgion - or maybe become a colourist?
"You cannot challenge anything we say"
'Course we can't - you've already declared your infallibility on this matter, and who are we mere mortals....?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 10:52 AM

Musket, you accused us of bigotry and Islamophobia when we have never expressed either.
Will you produce an example?
Of course not, because you can't!

What we actually say goes unchallenged, because you can't do that either.

You are hopeless.
You are incapable of debating because you know so little about anything except, possibly, NHS administration.
All you can do is make up shit.

(Like those EU restrictions against Israel)

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Stu
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 11:16 AM

". . . but more likely all you leftie muppets have completely misunderstood everything."

It is hard to live up to the grasp of nuance and detail you neocons have. For instance:

"All you can do is make up shit."

Ah right.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 11:56 AM

Maybe, oh right wing and militaristic idealogues, you should talk to some Yoruba people about Boko Haram and Islam. Do you not realise that IFA is one of the fastest growing belief systems?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 12:13 PM

"Will you produce an example?"
Doesn't claiming all male Pakistani Muslims are implanted to make them want to shag underage girls count as Islamophobia then - just like it doesn't count as being racist?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 12:16 PM

"We"

What is delicious is when you keep bringing up your confusion regarding restrictions in military hardware , comboned with confusing UN resolutions and sanctions. Each time you embarrass yourself, it just seems even funnier.

I take it the rest of "we" are happy to share your confusion and ridiculous notion?

I enjoy knowing nothing. My years of knowing nothing allows me to turn left when I get on a plane. Just think, if I knew anything, I'd have to turn right and sit with the proletariate.

(Sorry. Bridge has agreed with two of my posts. I have to make amends.).

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Stu
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 12:46 PM

"I'd have to turn right and sit with the proletariate."

Which is fine by us. You bourgeois might be minted but in my experience have no taste and your after shave and perfume smells like fly spray or bog cleaner. Best get upstairs to the luxury section. This is the problem: money but zero class. It's an unedifying spectacle.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 12:51 PM

We= Teribus and me.

Jim, re that post from over 3 years ago you are so obsessed with, remember I stated unequivocally and repeatedly that religion played no part in the offending.
Evidence AGAINST Islamophobia, which is all you will find.

Richard, now you accuse me of being Right Wing.
I am not.
I am centre/Right which is the majority position in England.
I used to vote Labour in the Blair days.
IFA is very interesting, but how relevant to this?

Musket,
What is delicious is when you keep bringing up your confusion regarding restrictions in military hardware , comboned with confusing UN resolutions and sanctions. Each time you embarrass yourself, it just seems even funnier.

There are no EU restrictions on military hardware to Israel.
Israel is an associate member state, not at all regarded as a "rogue state" as you also stated.

You have much to be embarrassed about.
I do not.

None of you have provided any example of bigotry or Islamophobia.
You can't because there are none.
It is entirely made up.
None of you has challenged anything we actually have said.
You can't.
That is why you revert to false accusations.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 01:11 PM

Everyone is entitled to a POV

Not so, FW Keith - everyone is entitled to an INFORMED point of view. This leaves you & several other bloviators out.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 01:15 PM

"no part in the offending.
Evidence AGAINST Islamophobia, which is all you will find."
And I pointed out that 'Muslim' referes to the religion - you specified that it was not just Pakistanis but Pakistani "Muslims" - if it had nothing to do with their religion why not just Pakistanis?
"None of you have provided any example of bigotry or Islamophobia."
Doesn't claiming all male Pakistani Muslims are implanted to make them want to shag underage girls count as Islamophobia then - just like it doesn't count as being racist?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 01:59 PM

Jim, I was just quoting back to Don his question that I was answering.
That is why it was in quotes.
I did not put in the word "Muslim" at all.
I used quotes to show that the words were not mine.
I had already told Don,

"Don, on 24th January I said about this issue "It is nothing to do with Islam. "
I do not "see the problem as a Muslim one,"
I have always said specifically that it is not."

My position was emphatically NOT Islamophobic, and you had to go back over three years to find that!

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 02:17 PM

Stu...I put the word liberal in inverted commas when I refer to fascists masquerading as liberals.
There are a fine selection of them hard at work on this forum, attempting to silence anyone who does not agree with every minute detail of their ideology.
I favour a liberal society, but not at any cost, when social experiments are seen not to be in the interests of society people must be allowed to speak against them without being called bigots, racists, or homophobes.    That is Fascism at work.

Politically I am of the left, always have been, but I look at issues not from a politically ideological position but look at each issue objectively and work out what I think to be in the long term interests of society.

The unregulated immigration we have seen for the last decade was always going to cause social problems, as we do not have the infrastructure to cope with huge numbers of immigrants....nothing to do with race or colour, but anyone speaking against immigration a few years ago was immediately attacked by "liberals", for holding "bigoted" or "racist" views.
The political climate has changed dramatically recently as the truth gently sinks in (Thanks mainly to Mr Farage and his party), but still the "liberal" stormtroopers chant their mantra......"Equality" "democracy" "freedom"! In reality we have none of these things and most intelligent people know that our political system is corrupt, our economic system based on greed and the antithesis of equality.

In place of real equality, democracy and freedom, we have homosexual "marriage" and multiculturalism....what a joke!

You will note that I also put homosexual "marriage" in inverted commas, as it bears little resemblance to traditional marriage, is unwanted by most homosexuals, is rarely monogamous and serves no purpose in society.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Ed T
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 02:31 PM

""Time I think to repeat my post/prophesy of 28/7 which was written before the Caliphate was announced.""


""the best guesser is the best prophet."" Marcus Tullius Cicero)

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 02:58 PM

"Jim, I was just quoting back to Don his question that I was answering."
Fine - you said you believed it - what's the problem?
You are one of these nasty little bar-steward who responds to criticism of Israel as "Antisemitism", and, when you invent statements by Muslim "experts" (as in your "implant" belief, those who question those statements become "racists".
Yet you make sweeping derogatory statements about Muslims, you plead a special case for yourself.
You seem to occupy a world where you feel you can manipulate where others make their contributions, and where you can misrepresent the statements of others whenever it suits you to do so.
Who the hell do you thing you are, with your "infallibility" and your "I win, you lose"?
Your good fairy may think you are a good debater (maybe he should have gone to oxford - I believe they have a good debating society there) - I think you are an arrogant little know-nothing with a tendency towards religious mania.
Behave like an adult on these discussions or go and play in the garden
At least Ake doesn't try to pretend he isn't a homophobic racist - take a lesson from a season out-of-the closeter - then you'll be a man my son (sort of)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 03:44 PM

Abu Bakr is leading a group of Islamic hardliners and jihadists with a small group of Sunni extremists who wish to return to a position of power.
Using weaponry from the Iraq invasion and heavy armaments abandoned by poorly led Iraqi troops, the group ISIS has occupied an area stretching from Syria across Iraq and called on all Muslims to support its goal of an independent Islamic state in what is now a large part of Iraq and Syria.

Moderates of all Islamic sects want no part of this move toward a hardline Islamic state.

Iran is providing its brother Shias in Iraq with ground fighter planes and other armaments, and the government of Syria also is providing some help, including air strikes.

ISIS may have some support from Sunnis, but it is too hardline for the support to last.

Israel has announced support for an independent Kurdish state.

Iraq, with a Shia government that seems to not want help from Sunnis in Iraq nor the Kurds, seems too weak to do much, unless the U. S. makes the grievous mistake of doing more than providing advisors and some air strikes.

The map may eventually become more realistic, with independent Kurdish, Sunni and Shia states, the last closely allied with Iran.

The development of the situation, and its resolution, however temporary, will be interesting to watch, but "hands off," with the possible exception of air strikes against "caliphate" leaders, seems the best option at present.

Whether Israel will provide more than just verbal support to the Kurds also could have an important effect on the future of the region.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Ed T
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 04:04 PM

An interesting article on Iraq from 2007. It indicates this countries borders are artificially pulled together from theboutside, are loosely held together by strong-arm leaders and only after its citizens can work out its own boundaries, reflecting ethnic and religious differences .

Cause of Iraq's chaos: bad borders 

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST,#
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 04:22 PM

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/03/opinion/the-caliphate-fantasy.html

That's an interesting and informative article from the Opinion page of the NYT.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 05:01 PM

Thank you Guest#. Interesting.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 05:21 PM

The Cambridge Union Society's debates are at least as good as those at its Oxford equivalent, which it preceded in foundation by eight years (Cambridge Union 1815; Oxford Union 1823 obviously in imitation).   I debated in the Cambridge Union frequently 60 years ago in my student days, & was also a member of one of its administrative committees. So I don't quite know what Jim on about at 0258 pm; but that's nothing new: he does rather tend to make his facts up, rather than ascertaining what is correct -- Cambridge Union Society & Oxford Union Society can both be easily accessed on Wikipedia.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 06:07 PM

Guest#, your link to the NY Times article by Khaleb Diab says virtually the same as he does in the link I posted here: http://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=154376&messages=1412&page=2&desc=yes#3636008 the one to which Musket remarked "What's all this bollocks about wine etc?" and to which I responded "Good ol' Musket, clueless as ever - talk about thick. "

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 02:07 AM

Bobad and Akenaton.

Serving the community in restoring your cynicism in the human race.






Jesus fucking wept.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 02:45 AM

"The Cambridge Union Society's debates are at least as good as those at its Oxford "
If you think Keith is a "good debater" it's a pity you didn't attend more of them.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 03:22 AM

This issue has gone beyond debate, these people are dangerously crazy and dangerously well armed.
Every day they become more powerful, the "fifth columns" are already at work in every country in the world.

Aided by.....what did Stalin call them?    "useful idiots"?
These "idiots" are drawn to every divisive and destructive cause, social and political.

In truth they are in themselves a menace to society.
They have created a Disneyland Society, where all is sunshine and flowers, problems are carefully airbrushed away, until, as Teribus has remarked, some poor bastards have to face up to them.

Are they fools or enemies?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 03:32 AM

Jim,
Yet you make sweeping derogatory statements about Muslims,

This is a lie Jim.
I have never criticised Islam or Muslims in general.
Never.
In that thread I was at pains to state over and over that it was nothing to do with religion.
I had made abundantly clear that the word "Muslim" in Don's question had no relevance, but I quoted him.

If you want to discuss it with me further, do it on pm or I will open a dedicated thread so no-one has to see us rehash this shit yet again.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 04:02 AM

It is very odd, Keith, how you say you do not intend to slur all Muslims, but so many of us see that your repeated comments - almost all of which criticise some Muslims or persons of colour - can only, in reasonable eyes, convey the impression that you seek generally to denigrate Muslims or persons of colour. These are the preponderance of your posts. The only reasonable interpretation is that that is your agenda.

Much the same goes for Terry, and Ake.

I have not checked but I think I have seen posts by Bobad on other topics.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 04:23 AM

"I have not checked but I think I have seen posts by Bobad on other topics."
Bobad has a tendency to draw his cut-'n-pastes (he offers nothing else) from extremist sites like 'White Supremist' and 'Muslim Watch' (probably the largest selection ever on this forum).
Recently he has tended towards 'Gatestone' and extremist Zionist site.
"I have never criticised Islam or Muslims in general."
Sorry - "all Male Pakistani Muslims" isn't quite all Muslims, but the entire male gender of a million and a half people is enough to be going on with.
If not religion - why specify Muslims?
As Richard points out, your persistent attacks on Muslims, not to mention your domination of thread after thread on the subject until they disappear into oblivion (known as filibustering) indicates somewhat of a tendency, you might say.
" I will open a dedicated thread so no-one has to see us rehash this shit yet again."
Please don't claim this as a blessing as you have in the past, but open as many threads as you like - that is your right as a member.
I will raise your extremist Islamophobia wherever and whenever I see fit - that is my right as a member.
Don't you ***** dare interfere with that right ever again - who do you think you are?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 04:29 AM

You are just believing your own prejudice and preconceptions.
I have no agenda, and you have no grounds to assume such a thing.

You have never highlighted any bigoted statement of mine, only claimed that I must have made them.
I never have.

Instead of just applying labels to me that do not fit, please just respond to what I actually say.
Discuss and debate.

I have never criticised Muslims or Islam, only ever Islamists and Islamism.
In discussing grooming gangs, i referred to a factual over-representation of one demographic, never "people of colour."

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 04:58 AM

"Doesn't claiming all male Pakistani Muslims are implanted to make them want to shag underage girls count as Islamophobia then" - Christmas wrongly attributing a comment to Keith A of Hertford that HE didn't actually make

Keith A has told you repeatedly that the comment you ascribe to him was a Quote from someone addressing the phenomenon of gangs grooming vulnerable juvenile females for sex in the UK.

Unfortunately Christmas only hears what he wants to hear and only reads and acknowledges whatever suits and agrees with his preformed opinions on any given issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 06:01 AM

"Keith A has told you repeatedly that the comment you ascribe to him was a Quote from someone addressing the phenomenon of gangs grooming vulnerable juvenile females for sex in the UK
And he has repeatedly failed to give one example of such a quote - there was never such a quote from any public figure and if there had been, it would still be a racist smear on an entire community.
As it is, he invented his 'quotes' to dig himself out of the Klarts

Perhaps you might like to fill in his omission -
No?
Thought not!
You might have some luck on the 'BNP', 'Muslim, Watch', or similar sites
Read what has been written Corporal Jones
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST,#
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 06:25 AM

I found this on Wiki and was trying to think what it reminds me of.

"It was the stated policy of the Nazis to kill, deport, or enslave the Polish, Ukrainian, Russian, and other Slavic populations, whom they considered inferior, and to repopulate the land with Germanic people.[2][3][4] The entire urban population was to be exterminated by starvation, thus creating an agricultural surplus to feed Germany and allowing their replacement by a German upper class.[2] The policy of Lebensraum implicitly assumed the superiority of Germans as members of an Aryan master race who by virtue of their superiority had the right to displace people deemed to be part of inferior races.[3] The Nazis insisted that Lebensraum needed to be developed as racially homogeneous to avoid intermixing with peoples deemed to be part of inferior races.[3] As such, peoples deemed to be part of inferior races living within territory selected to be Lebensraum were subject to expulsion or destruction.[3] Nazi Germany also supported other nations' pursuing their own Lebensraum, including Fascist Italy .[5]"

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 07:40 AM

Keith has form when it comes to saying something and later saying he was only quoting. Happy for it to be from him till he gets challenged though, on numerous occasions.

Untrue.
Just more made up Musket shit.

I was just quoting back to Don his question FROM THE PREVIOUS POST if you care to look.
That is why it was in quotes.
I used quotes to show that the words were not mine.

What is the demographic you feel ok to demonise as groomers and rapists then Keith?

None.
I did refer to the fact that offenders of one specific crime were disproportionately from the British Pakistani community.



"Mr Shafiq profiles the offenders as Asian men, predominantly Pakistani, who want easy sex and are prepared to pay to abuse girls as young as 13.
Of 68 recent convictions for on-street grooming, 59 were of British Pakistani men.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/9252003/Rochdale-grooming-trial-Mohammed-Shafiq-the-campaigner-who-stood-up-to-the-abusers.html

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 07:50 AM

Jim, you can not keep rehashing this on unrelated threads.
This is the last response I will make here.
I will open another if you keep on.
Pity they closed the last one opened for that purpose.

And he has repeatedly failed to give one example of such a quote

I gave many examples, e.g. Yasmin-Alibhai-Brown, Mohamed Shafiq (see previous post), Lord Ahmed, Channel 4 journalist Tazeen Ahmad, Imam Karmani,......

They all acknowledge the over-representation and ascribe it to the culture (nb NOT reigion) of their community.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 07:55 AM

Corrected version.
sorry.

Jim, you can not keep rehashing this on unrelated threads.
This is the last response I will make here.
I will open another if you keep on.
Pity they closed the last one opened for that purpose.

And he has repeatedly failed to give one example of such a quote

I gave many examples, e.g. Yasmin Alibhai-Brown, Mohamed Shafiq (see previous post), Lord Ahmed, Channel 4 journalist Tazeen Ahmad, Imam Karmani,......

They all acknowledge the over-representation and ascribe it to the culture (nb NOT religion) of their community.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 08:28 AM

"Jim, you can not keep rehashing this on unrelated threads."
It is not up to you to decide what is "related and unrelated" - you have been told this often enough.
As far as I am concerned, anything you have to say on Muslims id directly relevant to your contempt and hatred of them, as confirmed so clearly by you in your statement - look on it as having your record being taken into consideration before passing sentence, if you like.
You are entitled to open as many topics as you like, just as I am entitled to post where I consider relevant - if you in any way attempt to interfere with my right to do so again I will have you stopped, and if you persist, I will request your removal.
You challenged anybody to show how you have not attacked the Muslim people or their religion - I responded to that challenge - yu don't like the response - tough!
No matter how many names you put up, you have at no time produced a single statement of anybody of note condemning an entire ethnic community in the manner you have - it would have been both illegal and and career suicide for any of them to have done so.
Now, get out of everybody's way and let us get on with these discussions without your interference.   
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST,#
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 09:16 AM

Did you two guys ever watch the movie, Fatal Attraction?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 09:28 AM

Bunny boiling is one of Keith's specialties - I think Jamie Oliver has made an offer for the recipe
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 09:39 AM

I have no contempt or hatred of Muslims and have never expressed any.
In that thread I stated probably a dozen times that it was not about Muslims or Islam.
All you can do is wilfully misinterpret that single three year old post.
Nothing else from that whole thread or all my years of posting supports your made up accusation.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 10:11 AM

Black is the new white

Demographic is the new Muslim

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 10:29 AM

ISIL (Islamic state of Iraq and Levant) threat discussed by Saudis and John Kerry, also support for moderate opposition in Syria. The Saudis increase forces on border with Iraq.
At present, the Saudi king is pressing Sunnis in Iraq to support the Iraqi government (see Reuters report, June 28, "Saudi king tells Kerry he will press Sunnis to join Iraq government." The Saudis distrust Maliki because he seems to represent only Shias in Iraq, but the ISIL forces are getting close to Saudi (Sunni) territory.

The stupid and childish "he said/he didn't say" argument is tiresome and contributes nothing to a cogent discussion about the effect of ISIL on the Iraq-Iran-Saudi Arabia region.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 10:37 AM

Historian Juan Cole looks at the history of caliphates, and their varying meaning over time.

Let us please call it the "so-called Islamic State," since it bears all the resemblance to mainstream Islam that Japan's Om Shinrikyo (which let sarin gas into the subway in 1995) bears to Buddhism.
... After Ali's assassination, the Umayyad kings ruled (661-750), and though some scholars have found that they claimed religious charisma, they were just Arab kings. A branch of the family of the Prophet tracing itself back to his uncle Abbas began making claims to rightful rule, however, and they were popular among the new converts from among the Persians in Iran, and in 750 they made a revolution against the Umayyads. They became the Abbasid caliphate, ruling until the Mongol conquest of Baghdad in 1258.
Following that defeat by the Mongols, the caliphate in its original form was pretty much dead. Cole writes that while many kings and rulers styled themselves as caliphs, they didn't have the religious authority that implied. Though the Ottoman Sultan declared himself Caliph in 1880, he was not always seen that way by the world's Muslims. While the Turkish state's abolishment of the caliphate claim in 1924 is generally seen as a great tragedy, it rests on revisionist history, in Cole's telling.

The end of the caliphate did not matter to most Muslims. You don't need a caliph to pray five times a day or fast Ramadan. In Egypt, Ali Abd al-Raziq, a court judge, argued in modernist fashion that no caliph is necessary. Some Egyptian clerics were uncomfortable with the idea, but they lost the argument. There was some jockeying to resurrect the caliphate in the mid-1920s, and the Egyptian king, Fuad I, threw his crown in the ring. But the fact is that none of the newly forming nation-states wanted a transnational authority like that, and no consensus could be reached, and the caliphate (such as it was, since I don't think most Muslims bought into Abdulhamid's project) lapsed again.
Small groups of cult-like fundamentalists ever after hoped for a restored caliphate, but it isn't something on the minds of 99% of the world's 1.5 billion Muslims. Sunni Islam has come sociologically to resemble Protestant Christianity, lacking a formal center and largely organized on the basis of the nation-state.
Col. (Ret.) Pat Lang, the former head of the Defense Intelligence Agency's Middle East desk, is on the same page.

IMO, this declaration of the caliphate of Ibrahim is a terrible blunder for ISIS.   The Islamic world will unite in hostility against such ambitions and claims. Most people in these countries want to retain their local national ientities or at least to have states that may better reflect their ethnic identity. Even the Saudis, who have toyed with the notion of absulute authority given to their wahhabi faith, will recoil in horror from the evident threat presented by the idea of an umma ruled by the likes of these people.
To be sure, Brigadier FB Ali, a retired Pakistani officer and frequent contributor to Lang's blog, says there is cause for concern.

Undoubtedly, governments in Muslim countries will reject this declaration. However, this 'caliphate' may well appeal to the many Muslims all over the world who want Islam to govern their lives and the countries in which they live, but who reject their present governments as not being Islamic. Especially vulnerable to such ideas would be young men in the Muslim diaspora, many of whom feel this need more acutely than their brethren back home. ISIS can expect an increase in Muslim recruits from the West.
What lends substance to this declaration by ISIS is its capture of a large piece of territory in the Muslim heartland, something the other jihadi outfits cannot match.
Writing at the Long War Journal, Thomas Joscelyn points out that 9 major jihadi groups in Syria have already rejected Baghdadi's claim.

In a series of tweets in both English and Arabic, Abu Sulayman al Muhajir, a top sharia official in the Al Nusrah Front, sharply criticized the Islamic State's announcement. While using the hashtag #Khilafah_Proclaimed in his tweets, Abu Sulayman argued that the Islamic State's failure to consult jihadi leaders before making the announcement "is a clear breach of Islam."
"The situation has not changed at all here," Abu Sulayman said in one tweet, referring to Syria. "Only difference I see is there is a stronger 'Islamic' justification for them [the Islamic State] to kill Muslims." The Islamic State has long justified the killing of other rebel fighters and leaders by arguing that it is the only legitimate authority in Iraq and Syria.
Abu Sulayman, who is from Australia, served as a mediator during al Qaeda's early attempts to reconcile the ISIS with other jihadist groups in Syria. When those efforts failed, he became a vocal critic of the ISIS and is now a staunch opponent of the Islamic State.
Time will tell if Baghdadi's grab for power will allow him to hold on to a piece of Iraq and Syria. The smart money is that he won't, if history recent and distant is anything to go buy. The Ottoman Sultan declared himself a caliph in 1880, partly in the hopes that Indian Muslims would turn on the colonial British administration there. It didn't work - and during World War I, Indian Muslim troops under British command helped defeat the Ottoman Empire in what was to become Iraq.

The Taliban's Mullah Omar tried the caliph gambit too. In 1996, shortly after after conquering Kandahar and on the verge of controlling Afghanistan, he wrapped himself in a cloak purported to have been worn by the prophet Mohamed and declared himself the leader of the world's Muslims. Today, Omar lives in Pakistan."


http://news.yahoo.com/self-declared-iraqi-caliph-wants-rule-world-193418351.html

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 10:55 AM

Your persistence in driving these threads into the ground with your Islamophobic rantings would be more than enough, if it wasn't for your having summed it up so beautifully in one posting
When you are challenged about your statement, you have confirmed that it is still your belief, you have blamed somebody else for putting the idea into your head (failing to produce a single example from anybody else), now you appear to be claiming you only confirmed it was your opinion because you were quoting Don (whatever that particular piece of gibberish means!).
Whoever said it, it a racist statement, and anybody who says he "now believes it" is a racist.
To misquote my old mun (she of the world's oldest profession, according to Terry the Toy Trooper) - "if Jack Straw put his finger in the fire, would you do the same?"   
Anyway, despite the fact that it's always a pleasure talking to you, song annotation calls - only another 200 to go!!
"Misinterpretation" now - is it - that's a new one to add to the list!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 11:17 AM

The claim to a caliphate by ISIL has little to do with the caliphate as an historical unit; it died with the sack of Baghdad and the removal of the caliphate to Cairo, where it became a tool of the Mamluk rulers.

ISIL claims to be the successor to the political and religious community established by the Prophet Muhammad. The ideal of a united church and state leadership is an old one, and desired by many Muslims.
With large areas in Syria and Iraq, ISIL has effectively eliminated the boundary between the two areas.

Muslim beliefs at present range from moderate to rigid. Shiites believe that leadership should have followed through descent from Ali; creating an early split. It is doubtful that the groups will get together, especially with the jihadist elements in ISIL.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 11:38 AM

"Levant" is used as a translation of part of the Arabic name, ISIL (ISIS); an old term for the eastern Mediterranean area now Syria, Lebanon, Israel and Jordan. This is not what is meant by the leader and self-proclaimed caliph, Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi.

More elements of the rebels fighting the Syrian government seem to be falling to ISIL. Most of the villages along the Euphrates River are under ISIL control.
Associated press, July 3.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: pdq
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 02:22 PM

I have long supported the establishment of a free state for the Kurds called Kurdistan.

If it is going to thrive, it must have a port on the Mediterranean Sea.

That would require concessions from Turkey, which are unlikely.

Kurdistan would also need to get land now considered part of Iran, although a trade with Iraq for the Shiite-controiolled area in the southheast is a possibility.

A viable Kurdistan is unlikely with just a division of current Iraqi teritory.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 03:34 PM

Your persistence in driving these threads into the ground with your Islamophobic rantings
Jim, I have NEVER posted an Islamophobic rant.

failing to produce a single example from anybody else
I gave many examples, e.g. Yasmin Alibhai-Brown, Mohamed Shafiq (see previous post), Lord Ahmed, Channel 4 journalist Tazeen Ahmad, Imam Karmani,......

They all acknowledge the over-representation, ascribing it to the culture (NOT religion) of their community.

Culture is "implanted" in all of us.
Not a word I would choose, but that is how Don put it to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 03:58 PM

"They all acknowledge the over-representation, ascribing it to the culture (NOT religion) of their community."
Who is talking about "over-representation" - stop changing the subject
Your claim was over all make Muslim Pakistanis - and you damn well kow this - that is what you claim to have been stated by others and that was an extreme example of extremism
That is what will return to bite your bum for the foreseeable future.
"Culture is "implanted" in all of us."
No it isn't, and certainly not to have it off with underage women
"but that is how Don put it to me."
So now it's Don's fault you made your claim
The more you wriggle and try to blame somebody else the more dishonest you appear - and the more fun this gets
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST,#
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 04:43 PM

In the spirit of the thread title and what it's s'posed to be about, I am wondering just how many of you people have contemplated ISIS and part of its end goal.

Here is the ISIS map as they view the future.

Any comments from anyone? Because what we are seeing is a blueprint for World War III.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 04:46 PM

The more you wriggle and try to blame somebody else the more dishonest you appear - and the more fun this gets

Only you find this tedious old shit "fun" Jim.
Everyone else on Mudcat wants you to drop it.

I do now believe that culture caused the over-representation because all those well known and respected members of that culture said so.
They know more about it than us.

I think culture effects us all to some extent.
If you challenge that, what proportion will you accept Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 04:48 PM

Guest#, that would be phase 2, not the "end goal."

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 05:21 PM

Don't know about 'everyone'; but I surely wish Jim would drop it.

Honestly, Jim, in the spirit of our rapprochement, you really have milked this one dry over 3 years of looking for another stick to beat Keith with, not finding it, & having to fall back on this one yet again -- which, as you know, I think you got wrong from the off, but no point going into that again (I at least flatter myself that I know when a topic has served its turn & it might be the time to find a new one, or else shut the hell up).

Give it a rest, Jim. Seriously. You are not going to impress or convince anybody by boring them into a permanent coma...

Best

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 05:23 PM

Otherwise, I warn you yet again -- You shall not go to the Ball...

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 05:49 PM

So, do I have to start a new thread to get my question answered without all the brouhaha about who said what how?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST,#
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 06:11 PM

Guest, your question was answered days ago. I'll re-post the link.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/03/opinion/the-caliphate-fantasy.html

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 07:10 PM

My friend, Tarek Fatah, expounds on what constitutes an "Islamic State":

http://tarekfatah.com/what-in-the-world-is-an-islamic-state/

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Ed T
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 07:56 PM

"Shiites believe that leadership should have followed through descent from Ali; creating an early split."

Kinda reminds me of RC church believing that the Christian leadership should follow St. Peter through the Popes-cheating a later spilt and significant discord (even lots of bloodshed) with other Christians, who saw things differently.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST,Mrr
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 08:29 PM

Oops that was me, again, as guest. And I was hoping to get people here to give an answer...

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST,#
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 12:16 AM

The opening post:

"Subject: BS: Caliphate
From: Mrrzy
Date: 01 Jul 14 - 01:46 AM

Can they really just assert dominance over all moslems, and does that mean that the Palestinians actually have an islamic "home"land now?"


The answer: No

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: LadyJean
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 01:14 AM

Every religion has it's share of crazies. But they do not represent the majority of the faith.

I am a Christian. The Reverend Fred Phelps was also a Christian. (Allegedly) We didn't see eye to eye on much. Most Christians didn't see eye to eye with that jerk.

I knew a group of Iranian Muslims in college. They were very nice people, who dressed and behaved like the rest of us, except that they liked brighter colors, and they didn't drink alcohol. (Just very very very strong coffee.)

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 03:50 AM

"Honestly, Jim, in the spirit of our rapprochement, you really have milked this one dry over 3 years of looking for another stick to beat Keith"
Sorry Mike, while Keith continues to post on the issue it remains an issue.
That he is the extremist he is is fine by me - there are lots of extremists in the world - thankfully they don't saturate the threads after thread of this forum with their extremism with a last-man-standing attitude until they crash to the ground in flames.
Nor do they use this forum as a competition in order to "win" something, or to declare themselves "infallible" and those who disagree "muppets"
Nor do they try to run this forum as if they owned it, telling the rest of us what is and what is nor relevant, or what right we have to comment on subjects because we "no longer live here", or we are "anti-British because we criticise her policies and politicians..... or all the other unpleasant tricks used to divert from intelligent discussion
I really am not interested in Keith's politics - I'm not sure what they are and I don't think he is fully - they are certainly not backed up with any fore-knowledge, so they seem not to inspire enough interest for him to have made any efforts read up on the subjects he declares himself "infallible" on.   
The vast majority of contributors here take part out of a genuine interest in the subjects - to Keith, it is a matter of "I win - you lose" - which fucks it up for everybody else over and over again - go and count how many times he has said exactly that, or how many times he had dominated the thread with his postings, or has been the last poster.
I enjoy discussions like these - I don't get a lot of them here in the wild west.
They help me keep in touch with things and stimulate me to follow them up.
I have learned a great deal from participating in them - mainly from people I don't necessarily agree with - and would not like to see more threads naused up by Keith's attention-seeking and (often self-declared) ignorance on subjects he knows s.f.a. about, but which interest me and others.
Taking part in these discussions with Keith present is like trying to carry on a serious conversation, with a precocious, attention-seeking child in the same room.
Also in the spirit of rapprochement, sometime you give the impression of a proud parent whose child can do no wrong - we rally do need to 'Talk About Kevin' - sorry, should have said Keith.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 04:02 AM

Sorry Mike, while Keith continues to post on the issue it remains an issue.

I do not, except to defend myself from your wild accusations.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 04:18 AM

And to occasionally defend yourself from reason...

Sorry Keith, you have form and it isn't just Jim either.

Do you also defend "we" from the "left"?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 04:29 AM

Will you give an example of my "form?"
Of course not!
You can't.
Just more made-up Musket shit.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 04:45 AM

I keep telling you. Click on the hyperlink in blue saying Keith A of Hertford, and read what comes on your screen, clicking into the wit and wisdom therein.

Quite simple really.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 05:04 AM

Fine, Jim; I have no wish to be prescriptive. It has become a hobby of yours, and far be it from me...

I think I shall probably just stop following this particular sequence...

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 05:17 AM

Me too (if not provoked otherwise)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 06:10 AM

Click on the hyperlink in blue saying Keith A of Hertford, and read what comes on your screen, clicking into the wit and wisdom therein.

Over thirteen thousand posts.
Not very helpful.

Please produce just ONE example of my "form."
Make it the very WORST example you can think of.

Will you?
OF COURSE NOT!

How could you when there are NONE!
It is all just more Musket made-up shit.

You are a hopeless liar Musket.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 06:27 AM

In response to Lady Jean, I am an atheist, but attend church very occasionally to listen to our local minister deliver his sermon.
He is an intelligent if somewhat "ecclesiastical" man......I have never heard him condemn other religions, or those who practice other religions.

In fact, I have never heard or read anything of that nature from practicing Christians, all of whom are extremely tolerant, even of my well known atheism.

I have always tried to understand why some folks feel the need for spiritual support, and have learned a lot in the process, Christians on the whole, try to follow the teachings of Jesus.....they are good tolerant people.
Islamists are crazy dangerous fanatics.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Stu
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 06:40 AM

"I am an atheist, but attend church very occasionally to listen to our local minister deliver his sermon."

There's a lot to be said for atheists attending church. I don't go but can see the attraction, I like the ritual (which I find comforting in its consistency) and who can resist a good sing-song? The fact I don't believe a word of it is irrelevant.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 06:44 AM

Regarding moderation, I think those who habitually lie or misrepresent in discussion, are a menace to the forum and will eventually destroy it.

There are many decent members who stay silent when these people attack, and I'm sorry to say it is often their political views that keep them silent.
This is short term reasoning, as the important thing is freedom of discussion.....and the golden rule is always tell the truth, do not use multiple handles to support your views, and avoid personal abuse.

The moderators do well, it must be almost impossible and so bloody boring to keep checking and deleting the shit. It's up to the membership to speak up whenever gross bad behaviour occurs, its OUR forum too. Forget politics, freedom of expression is much more important, you people from the US should know that!

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 06:46 AM

"I have nev"eard him condemn other religions, or those who practice other religions."

I guess the good messages of the minister fell on infertile ground- (Possibly a good example of "doublespeak")?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 07:14 AM

Ed I don't know what you are trying to insinuate, but there are people here who are trying to equate the horrors perpetrated by "Islamists" all over the world to those who follow the Christian faith, or at least to maintain that Christians are just as bad.

This is evidently untrue, the "Islamists" practice terror against civilians ...women and children are routinely butchered, there are numerous examples above. They are completely deranged.
Only fools would claim that there is an similarity between Christians and "Islamists"

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 07:21 AM

More doublespeak, Ake?
Orwell would "not" be proud of you.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 07:31 AM

No doublespeak Ed. Everything I have written is clear and verifiable.

I take it you disagree? well lets hear your point of view.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 08:10 AM

"there are people here who are trying to equate the horrors perpetrated by "Islamists" all over the world to those who follow the Christian faith, or at least to maintain that Christians are just as bad.

This is evidently untrue, the "Islamists" practice terror against civilians ...women and children are routinely butchered, there are numerous examples above. They are completely deranged.
Only fools would claim that there is an similarity between Christians and "Islamists" - Akenaton

No truer words ever stated.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 08:42 AM

"Only fools would claim that there is an similarity between Christians and "Islamists""
I spent much of the 60s on the streets protesting about Christian America pouring burning petrol (napalm) and carcinogenic chemicals (Agent Orange) on South East Asian peasants, with the backing of much of the Christian world
A decade or so earlier, Christian America, with the backing of Christian Britain dropped two horrific weapons on two Japanese cities, the effects of which are still evident in newborn children.
During WW2, 'Hitler's Pope', Pius XII, looked the other way while Italy's Jews were being herded into the gas chambers.
Christian Spain allowed the Luftwaffe to practice its skill on the market-goers of Guernica
The same church, some a couple of decades earlier blessed the bombs which were destined for the people of Abyssinia
A few years earlier, Christian "Gallant Little Belgium" slaughtered 10 million Congolese in pursuit of rubber.... how far do you want to go back?
"War is hell" - I understand!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 08:42 AM

Let's see. Akenaton just said that all Christians are tolerant. He then says Islamists are dangerous fanatics.

What is the link between those two sentences?

Are Muslims as peaceful and tolerant as Christians then? Is there hope for you yet?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 08:43 AM

Actually, Ake, I spend very little time considering your one-dimentional, predictable and "sketchy" reasoning, as most if it I find quite simplistic in nature. While I am sympathitic that everyoes reasoning power is not objective and the same, I do find prejuduces ugly.

""We are least open to precise knowledge concerning the things we are most vehement about"" Eric Hoffer 

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 08:45 AM

I believe many others likely noticed that example of "doublespeak" Musket. But, anyway, thanks for pointing it out.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 08:59 AM

Is there an equivalent to Islamism in any other religion?

Most Muslims are indeed tolerant people.
Islamists are not.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 09:01 AM

I wasn't pointing it out to people, I was pointing it out to Akenaton as I do not think he has the intelligence to notice how his blind prejudice comes out.

Tell you what, I shall take his comment at face value and ask how Christians can ALL be tolerant when both Anglican and RC sects don't see gay people as equal. When women are barred from high office. When they fight attempts to lift Sunday trading restrictions so normal people have to suffer for their hobby.

Oh, and the murdering gangs in Uganda and CAR who rape and pillage in the name of their religion every bit as much as Islamist fanatics do in theirs. Not to mention the US baptist churches bank rolling the Ugandan politicians who tried to introduce capital punishment for being gay.

There are many good people on this planet. Statically, many of them are practicing Christians and Muslims. But neither can ignore the bad apples claiming affinity and neither religion is tolerant till every person regardless of their status has a chance at equal membership. A plague on both their houses.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 09:29 AM

"Is there an equivalent to Islamism in any other religion?"

CHRISTIAN TERRORISM

JEWISH DEFENCE LEAGUE

BOSNIAN GENOCIDE

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 09:38 AM

Yes Keith. I name it Christianism. It was starting to die out as people in The West became less superstitious and felt self conscious pretending to believe in make believe.

However, chiefly through advertising itself in areas of ignorant shit kickers, in particularly areas of Baptist strongholds in Dumbfuckistan, it became popular again. Indeed, you can't become President of the land of the free without claiming allegiance to it.

The most nasty elements are where they can practice their medieval traits such as Uganda.

I believe their slogan is contained in a call to arms song, and is "Christ thy right."




Easy isn't it? And no different to some of the Islamaphobia on this and countless other threads.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 10:10 AM

I did not just mean bad people Musket you old chump.

Islamism is dedicated to the overthrow of democracy and the imposition on all people by force of Islamic rule under extreme, medieval Sharia Law.

Is there an equivalent movement in any other religion?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 11:08 AM

Rather than promote prejudice and hate towards those in other religions, Ghandi reached out to people of all religions, including Muslims (aks islamists).


Mahatma Gandhi's struggle against religious fanaticism.  

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 11:16 AM

"Gandhi required Muslims to recognize that Islam like any other religion was neither the whole truth nor nothing but the truth."

" When some women were stoned to death in Afghanistan for allegedly committing adultery, Gandhi criticized it, saying that "this particular form of penalty cannot be defended on the ground of its mere mention in the Koran." and he added, "every formula of every religion has in this age of reason to submit to the acid test of reason and universal justice if it is to ask for universal assent."

Islamists would kill him for that.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 11:20 AM

including Muslims (aks islamists).

NO!!
Muslims ARE NOT also known as Islamists.
That is a very ignorant and dangerous lie.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 11:25 AM

"Islamism is dedicated to the overthrow of democracy"
As are many of the groups names above
The U.S. hasn't been above sending in the Marines to overthrow democratically elected governments and even Mrs T described the dictator who murdered the democratically elected Allende as a fine example of democracy.
The U.S. has supplied arms, equipment and intelligence to overthrow democratically elected governments.
The whole Islamist mess came about because of the West's backing fundamentalists like rather than nationally approved leaders.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 11:29 AM

Ed, sorry.
Misconception not lie.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 11:31 AM

Is there any other religious group dedicated to the destruction of all and any democracy Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 11:54 AM

Definitions are difficult, when Muslims are members of Islam.

Islamist is "a set of ideologies holding that "Islam should guide social and political as well as personal life."
---
"Islamists generally oppose the use of the term, claiming their political beliefs and goals are simply an expression of Islamic religious belief. Similarly, some experts favor the term activist Islam or political Islam and some have equated the term militant Islam with Islamism.."

From Islamism, an article in Wikipedia.

Shouting about your particular usage is childish.

Also childish are the stupid he said/didn't say arguments, gone over and over again.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 12:34 PM

Thanks for shouting down the suggestion that Muslims are Islamists Keith. I did notice.

In objective answer to your question, I would point out two things, and the second flows from the first;

Islamism is not a set doctrine. There are many people taking up arms in many different countries and calling themselves or being labelled islamist. Some complain about the others in a macabre "Peoples' Popular Front of Judea" stance. The aims are similar, the structure to follow are very different...

It is therefore a matter of numbers, in which there are Christian equivalents, and we don't need to look at Crusades or Inquisition to find it. When a Bishop declares he answers to a higher authority when commenting on equality law. When American Baptist organisations fund attempts to make being gay a capital offence in Uganda, when they and similar movements bomb abortion clinics and murder healthcare professionals working in them.

They just don't have the numbers, that's all. They claim they are real Christians and that you aren't. An Islamic version of Bobad would possibly quote them as representing all Christians judging by his track record.

In any event, the term Islamism, being two letters away from Islamic and confusingly meaning the same in pure word structure terms, was purposely coined in order to make links between terrorists and normal people. hence I and many others scorn the term. No problem with another word, call them apricots if you like. But if scum can confuse paedophile and paediatrician, it doesn't take much for them to invoke the word Muslim when thinking terrorist.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 01:25 PM

"Islamist was purposely coined in order to make links between terrorists and normal people."

Who coined the term and definition? Source?

The term started out innocently enough in articles 1993-2003, mostly denoting political Islam.

Then came the series of articles and diatribes in the press, notably one in Newsweek by a Hayri Abaza, Is it Islamic or Islamist ? (10-22-10)
The use of Islamist for the radical, extremists was endorsed, but Abaza also pointed out that the public would be confused, not grasping (his and others) distinction between Islamic and Islamist.

Perhaps radical should be added as a modifier; radical Islamist.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 01:45 PM

Is there any other religious group dedicated to the destruction of all and any democracy Jim?"
Are there any specific groups dedicated to the destruction of democracy?
Your claim that religion played any part in any of this has long been shot down - politics and power is what is happening.
Religion plays the same role it always did - validating warfare by giving it a cause - pretty much the same as 'God, King' and country' was used to inspire millions of young man to march to their deaths in WW1 or the way that the Empire was set up to civilise and Christianise the savage world - nothing to do with natural resources and cheap labour, of course!! .
Thes countries aren't democracies - they are by and large feudal monarchies.
To suggest that those fighting in Syria are enemies of democracy and freedom is is nutty as it gets - Syria has neither.
Iraq is a feudalist state torn to pieces by western intervention - there was a possibility that The Arab Spring might improve that situation was blown by cynical non-intervention - which would not have happened if oil had been an issue.
Exactly which democracy that Islamism is dedicated to overthrow are you referring to?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 02:48 PM

was purposely coined in order to make links between terrorists and normal people.

More made up bollocks

hence I and many others scorn the term.

Many others?
Even more bollocks, or can you find one in the whole world?
No.

The word is in common usage, and well understood as being quite distinct from Islam and Muslim.
It is ignorant, dangerous and offensive to equate them.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 02:51 PM

I am off now for a couple of weeks.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 02:52 PM

Thanks for the second (more measured and understanding) post,KAof H. Yes, it was my error in my last post- I meant, Islamic, not Islamist.

However, following up on that, I could not find a consistant definition of Islamist that defines it well (some online dictionaries have no definition).

Some of the definitions could well describe orthodox religious fanatics of any religion? Some definitions include only radicals, and others seem to include those dedicated non-violent muslims, mostly promoting a total islamic life, including governing (possibly much like many orthodox religious folks).

As Q notes, adding the word radical or militant Islamists would possibly give a clearer, more accurate meaning.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 02:55 PM

"I am off now for a couple of weeks."
Missing you already
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 03:02 PM

For those still unclear on the distinction: Islam vs. Islamist

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 03:05 PM

"Hamas seems to be losing control of the dozens of terror cells in the Gaza Strip.

    Hamas prevented local journalists from covering the ISIS rally in the Gaza Strip last month as part of its effort to deny the existence of ISIS in the Gaza Strip. But Hamas seems to be trying to cover the sun with one finger.

    The Gaza Strip is no longer only a threat to Israel, but also to Egypt. The only way to confront this threat is through security cooperation between Israel and Egypt."

ISIS Already in Gaza Strip

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 03:05 PM

""Islamists would kill him (Ghandi) for that"

Possibly so-but, I suspect it would not have deterred him from reaching out and trying to build bridges?

However, the radicals need recruits. I suspect Ghandis approach would make it a a lot harder to get them and meld them into radicals. I suspect there are many reasons, historic and current, to build a case against those interested in controlling the Arab region, its people and its resources. This area was likely an incubation zone for radicalism.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 03:10 PM

Well said Keith!   But we must remember that Ian and his like don't care a fig about butchered children or real abuses of rights to life.
His world revolves around a much more important issue....the marriage rights of homosexuals!!

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 03:15 PM

The article below nites the difference between radical and moderate islamists. Putting everyone in one camp is illogical, and simplistic, though it does support some folks distorted thinking towards other groups and people they dont like.

The Myth of Excluding Moderate Islamists in the Arab World 

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 07:47 PM

Thanks for the link, Ed T.

Our mayor here in Calgary is a moderate Islamist. A fine man.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST,Bruce Murdoch
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 09:39 PM

I wish to know why the people who post here have not questioned ISIS's intent. Included in their territorial map is the entire country of Israel. I hereby accuse you of being Jew haters and of less worth than Nazis. You are despicable, the fucking lot of you. Seven million people have less worth to you than your ideal? In the parlance, may your balls rot.

Bruce Murdoch

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 10:16 PM

Until something is done about Israel - i.e., giving the Palestinians a state and getting Israel out of the West Bank, they are always going to have a target drawn on them. The U.S. has let them get away with a lot of nonsense for too long. Every time there is progress in peace talks - more settlements are announced. They do it EVERY TIME. Israel isn't an innocent victim in a lot of its own troubles.

I haven't followed this thread, I just looked to be sure that someone signing their name "Bruce Murdoch" really is Bruce. So I'm just responding to your angry outburst - I find myself much less ardent a fan of Israel as they continue to goad their neighbors. Yes they have been victims, in a lot of ways for centuries. But for today and in the here an now, they aren't behaving themselves well. The romance of the Jewish homeland is gone, it is now a long-running tragedy for many people.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST,Bruce Murdoch
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 12:33 AM

You're talking philosophy, ma'am. I'm talking about a pending genocide.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 02:00 AM

Our guest Bruce is excitable.

The map published by ABC News has been shown to be a fake. So far, ISIS/ISIL has not produced any map showing their intent. They have been consolidating their hold on a swatch of Syria and Iraq. They seem to be fanatics through their actions, with little chance of gathering support from moderate Muslims.

In case my mention that the mayor of Calgary may be considered a moderate Islamist was unclear, our hard-working mayor, Naheed Nenshi, is a Muslim, who found almost no opposition in his run for re-election.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 04:01 AM

Bruce is correct, these people are a "real and present danger" to the world....and Israel is right in the front line.
Sorry SRS, I share your views on the Palestinian predicament, but addressing this issue is more important for the safety of all.

It is, as in many other issues, a matter of priorities.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 04:12 AM

Q..." They seem to be fanatics through their actions, with little chance of gathering support from moderate Muslims."

Moderate Muslims, can quickly be made into immoderate ones, by having a knife held to their throats?
We are not talking NYC here, more like the Wild West?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST,CJB
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 04:17 AM

Why ISIS will fail - but not before murdering millions:

Al-Qaida's Seven Rules for the Effective Terrorist

ISIS is breaking all of them. It will live to regret it.

By William Saletan

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/frame_game/2014/06/osama_bin_laden_s_seven_rules_for_terrorists_isis_will_regret_not_following.single.html

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 04:21 AM

"Moderate Muslims, can quickly be made into immoderate ones"
So there we have it - we can't trust any of them so we should send them all back to where they came from, and those we can't....?
And maybe we should pack off all those homos at the same time before they give us all AIDS
Ranting racist garbage befitting the most squalid of the gutter-extremist sites.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 04:36 AM

I genuinely don't think you help, Jim, by ranting immoderately in return. How about some attempts at rational reply rather than these knee-jerk denunciations, of any opinion differing from your own world-view, as malevolently motivated? We all know you are a man of strong feelings and high principles; but these infuriated outbursts of yours, full of boo-words like "ranting racist garbage" &c, really do your cause & pov no benefit. No-one has advocated "send 'em all back" &c. We are back to your accusing me that time of saying they are here to "steal our jobs", when you had to admit subsequently that I had in fact made no mention of jobs whatsoever, and you were just being "logically rhetorical" or some such evasive locution. Try simmering down a bit ~~ it will be better for your blood-pressure, as well as for your argumentative position.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 06:57 AM

Sorry Mike - this is basic stuff
Ake has been at this far too long to be open to reason - tried it years ago with his homophobia.
Blanket condemnation of the entire Muslim population as being a threat, either actual or potential, leaves you with no foothold n which to begin to argue.
I wouldn't bother to try to get Nick Griffin to see the error of his ways - why shoud I bother with a serial bigot?
I appreciate your intentions.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 07:12 AM

No Michael. You do not appease bastards. You shout them down and confront them.

You can't educate pork so why bother trying.

There is no such thigh as a moderate Muslim. There is no such thing as a moderate Christian. There is no such thing as a moderate Jew.

There are people who have religious belief and belonging. That does not make them a criminal using religion as an excuse for dominating others.

There are people who use their religion as an excuse for atrocity. But to say that every Muslim is a potential terrorist is no different than saying every Scottish man is a potential patient in Carstairs.

He is getting worse. He needs stamping on.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 07:15 AM

But, then, I disagree re homophobia, as you may recall from a post I put on another thread late last year & think it worth reposting here ~~

Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone
From: MtheGM - PM
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 02:40 AM

I really feel it time someone objected to all this abuse of Akenaton. He seems to me simply to be trying to draw attention to a statistical conclusion which he finds of concern. He repeatedly quotes the actual statistics, which seem to be from respectable sources, but which nobody SFAICS has actually disputed. Instead, he has been cast in the role of The Messenger To Be Shot.
I do not like the implication of his statistics either; but they do give pause for thought. I do not think the 'whataboutery' to which they have been subjected in any way argumentatively convincing. I particularly think Musket's messenger-shooting, in the form of constantly rendering the penultimate syllable of his nickname as 'hate', to be, not only unwitty in the extreme, but an exceptionally cheap shot: think about it a bit more deeply, Ian -- please.
Instead of constantly abusing the man, why don't some of you try to find a few genuine counter-arguments. You are all reminding me of the ones who oh-so-predictably scream 'racism' any time the values of any ethnicity are questioned or impugned. So why not look for a few convincing arguments to replace these constant squeals of 'gayist', which add nothing to the concerning question as to whether SMS does or does not appear to show a statistical unbalance in regard to STDs?
I repeat ~~ I hate the idea that this might be the case; but accusing the person who adduces evidence ['evidence', I repeat -- not mere assertion] of being purely hate-motivated seems to me but an unworthy, vain, irrational, and counterproductive reaction.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 07:32 AM

Then we must agree to differ on Ake's homophobia here.
I have never accepted his statistics as reliable, but to use them as a form of persecution, even if they were accurate, is unacceptable.
His basic stance has always been that homosexuality ids unnatural, optional and 'curable' - which is the basis of all homophobia.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 11:18 AM

ISIS caught people by surprise. There will be pushback. Just because they say they want to do something doesn't mean they will be able to.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 11:46 AM

Thank you Michael, you are a man of reason. A gentleman in the true sense of the word.

Ian and Jim, along with their acolytes know exactly what they are doing, their attacks are simply a tactic. They are afraid of the truth, afraid of their ideology, as they have nothing to put in its place. They have invested their lives in a handful of dross and they simply cannot bear to admit it.

It worries me that so many people remain silent when these tactics are used....I think most of the mods understand what is going on, but most of the membership seem to believe that I deserve to be punished for daring to rock the good ship Mudcat.

I have never condemned ALL Muslims, but I have condemned Islamists, who are regarded by most people as dangerous psychopaths.
Jim and Ian know that very well, but find it more useful to attack me personally than address the issue.
I am certainly not a "hater" of homosexuals, but am concerned about legislating in favour of a lifestyle which is so obviously unhealthy, and destructive to society and homosexuals.
The remark about a "knife to the throat" was to elucidate that "moderates" can be easily subverted by fundamentalist radicals when law and order has broken down in society.

Our misplaced interventions in Iraq and Libya have left a bitter harvest to be reaped.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 12:57 PM

Ake
You have had every opportunity to respond to what I have said; you choose to throw stones from a distance and stay silent.
How dare you suggest legislating for homosexuality to bring the world into the 21st century is "so obviously unhealthy, and destructive to society and homosexuals" - what century to you exist in?
"I have never condemned ALL Muslims,"
"Moderate Muslims, can quickly be made into immoderate ones, by having a knife held to their throats" is doing just that - damned if they are terrorists (rightly) damned if they are not, because they could easily be
The issue has always been addressed
Personally, I gave up when you suggested that the Norwegian mass-murder Breivik when he slaughtered all those young people.
You didn't elucidate then and I don't suppose you will now.
I think our friend has made my point for me far better than I possibly could Mike
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 01:17 PM

What is going on is that Akenaton posts views that are a stain on Mudcat. A folk club thread was mentioned at a folk club I was at the other week and the organiser said they don't use Mudcat for anything as they don't wish the club to be associated with some of the hatred that infiltrates it now.

How dare you say that normal people getting on with their lives are destructive to themselves and society? How dare you call normal people "moderate" and infer that they could be subverted?

You are an embarrassment.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 01:55 PM

Are Islamists in Tunisia terrorists?
In the Tunisian Assembly, a coalition of Islamists, leftists and liberals worked out a new constitution, "laying the foundation for a new democracy." CTV (Canadian) news, Jan 2014.
The moderate Islamist party, which holds 40% of the 216 seats in the assembly, backed down on putting religious inspired measures into the constitution.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 Jul 14 - 12:29 PM

The leader, Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, is destroying Shite mosques and holy places in territory his group controls. He is calling himself Caliph Ibrahim.
He is now the world's most wanted man.
I think his rule won't be long; only the most radical Sunnis and jihadists will support him.
An Iranian-supplied plane or a drone will end his roll.

Left behind, however, is the continuing Sunni-Shia split, just how the Iraqi lands will be divided, and whether a truce can be forged.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 06 Jul 14 - 12:32 PM

Good question, Q.

It will be interesting to seen if Tunisian Islamists mature into a responsible party in governance, or if they are biding their time. I think most of us are hoping for the former.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jul 14 - 12:34 PM

Shite Mosques? Hmmm. Freudian slip?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Jul 14 - 01:14 PM

Jim....If "radical Christians" were about to slit my throat, or butcher my family if I did not accept their belief....and there was no structure of law and order to protect us, my atheism would be swifly abandoned, my views subverted.

Fortunately I do not live in Iraq, Syria, or Libya and I know of no Christians who would dream of such subversion.
Radical Islamists think it their duty to rid the world of those who disagree with their faith.

Rather like Ian thinks it his duty to rid this forum of me.
Their mindset is remarkably similar.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jul 14 - 01:32 PM

In all the countries mentioned the conflict is a reaction to the West's actions - drones - Falluja - illegal oil wars, Abu Graib, Guantanamo, non-action on Assad (unless you count arms and equipment sales as action), Israel...
It is yet to be established that any of this has anything to do with "faith".
The only threat to the UK is in the part it has played and continues to play in all of these.
To use a conflict which started as an attempt to democratise the Middle East is simply agenda driving to back up your obvious hatred of Muslims - second only to your hatred of homosexuals.
If there is a risk to Britain, the answer lies in gaining the support of Muslims, not in antagonising them with hatred such as yours.
As far as I am concerned, people like you are as much a threat to our safety and well being as any radical islamist.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Jul 14 - 01:51 PM

What do you mean when you say that I am more of a danger than radical Islamists Jim? Do you mean that my words may upset them and cause them to slit all our throats, or blow us up, or fly aircraft into our tall buildings?.......I don't flatter my self that my views go any further than the pages of this forum, they are driven by other ideologies.

Get a grip man.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 Jul 14 - 01:52 PM

Sorry- lost an 'i'.

Shiite or Shi'ite.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 06 Jul 14 - 06:57 PM

"I just looked to be sure that someone signing their name "Bruce Murdoch" really is Bruce."

Why would you question if it really is Bruce? If you don't know, he is someone who has been championing the fight against prejudice and injustice since the 60s and there is certainly much of that in evidence here at Mudcat. I say bravo Bruce - call them out for what they are and keep on fighting the good fight!

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 06 Jul 14 - 10:52 PM

Bruce had a rather unflattering imitator stalk him for a few years, the old mudcat troll. If Bruce signs his name it's rare so we check to be sure that it's real. I know who he is - I hope we all know who he is!

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 02:06 AM

"What do you mean when you say that I am more of a danger than radical Islamists Jim?"
Because your hate is not aimed at them, but at Muslims.
You and your associate terrorism with being a Muslim - their religion, the way they dress, communities being "hotbeds" for terrorism - the classic Thatcherist "enemy within".
Despite the fact tat there are one nd a half million Muslims in Britain today, you have sneered at the idea of 'multiculturalism'.
If there is a problem with multiculturalism, it is because of those who are not prepared to accept 'strangers in our midst', certainly not because those coming to Britain are not prepared to integrate.
Survey show that Muslims, of all immigrants, are prepared to settle in Britain and be recocgnised as British, yet they remain the most persecuted and terrorised - and this pre-dates any 'Islamism' - Paki-bashing was a phenomenon throughout a large part of my life, certainly when I lived in London.
You have talked about terrorism among the Muslim communities - you claim that those who aren't terrorists are potential terrorists because of "the knife to the throat", in the past you have linked terrorism with immigration - you have merged the fact of Muslimism and terrorism into one single entity.
Simple question - what exactly do you propose should be done about the million and a half Muslims living in Britain today - send them back to their place of origin, electronically tag them - issue them with identity papers with a legal demand that they produce them on demand - ghettoise them so the can't move freely with us 'real Britons - or something else???
f there is a problem with returning Jihadists, a key factor to solving that problem is to win the hearts and minds of the Muslim people as a whole - even morons like Cameron have recognised and reiterated that fact.
This is not going to be possible if they continue to be made outsiders and are depicted as a threat.
Of course you views go further than this forum - they are to be found on every extremist site available, Muslim Watch, the N.D.L. the B.N.P., Ukip (though toned down there a little for the sake of political respectability)
You and yours have been long with us - you are a shameful part of history.   
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 02:39 AM

Jim, I can only assume that you do not comprehend what I have written.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 03:38 AM

Most of us would rather not comprehend what he writes either. I never thought there could be so much twisted hatred and cynicism in one person.

Even when there is nothing original in what he writes. He lets far right websites do his talking through cut and paste.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 03:40 AM

"Jim, I can only assume that you do not comprehend what I have written."
Seems a good way to say nothing but try to give the impression you have.
You have a number of simple questions - assume I have a modicum of intelligence and answer them - doesn't get any more simple.
So far you have given a politicians answer - I'm surprised you didn't open with "I'm glad you asked me that question , but what I would like to make clear that my party is doing its utmost....."
Give us a break Ake!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 07:59 AM

Tha Palestinian Arabs have had a Homeland since 1923 or so.

775 of the Mandate Palestine territory, in violation of the treaty creating the Mandate, was split off and made into the Arab Homeland of TransJordan, where NO Jews were allowed to settle or even own property. This was accepted by the Arabs.

The REAMAINING 32+ % of the original Mandate were to be the Jewish homeland as specified in the treaties.

In 1948, THAT (Jewish Homeland) land was divided, but the Arabs would not accept any division less than ALL for the Moslems, so they attacked the Jews. Jordan occupied the West bank, and removed all of the Jewish population that had been there previously.


The Arabs LOST, and have been demanding the unconditional surrender of Israel ever since.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST,keith A at Lochearnhead
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 08:37 AM

You and your associate terrorism with being a Muslim

No-one has.
Only with being an Islamist, which if you have been following recent events is regarded currently as the greatest terror threat by far.

Survey show that Muslims, of all immigrants, are prepared to settle in Britain and be recognised as British,

That is good, but what surveys?
We know from MI5 and Anti-Terror Police that there are thousands of them here who regard the public as legitimate targets to attack and kill.
That may be a small proportion, but you seem to be denying it.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 08:41 AM

"Bruce had a rather unflattering imitator stalk him for a few years, the old mudcat troll. If Bruce signs his name it's rare so we check to be sure that it's real. I know who he is - I hope we all know who he is!"

Fair enough SRS. My first thought on reading your post was that you were questioning his identity because of his stand on this issue. My mistake.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 09:01 AM

Whatever appeared on a scrap of paper to suit the colonialist powers, the Arabs have occupied that territory for millienia
Neither side accepted the treaties fully - the Israelis went along with it and immediately began to slaughter to occupants, even as the Brits were steaming out to sea - they have been clearing the area by force ever since.
Whatever agreement is finally reached, it has to take that fact into account, including the millions of refugees Israel has refused to allow to return to their right homeland.
the lie that the Palestinian leadership ordered Palestinians to leave the area until the fighting sorted itself out surfaced recently - no such thing
Irish radio, under the direction of Erskine Childers, monitored broadcasts coming out of Israel at the time was in fact, the opposite was the case.
The instruction was to hold ground and remain where they were.
The problem here is a massive human tragedy - not documents drawn up decades ago which have no relevance to political expediency
Live with that fact
Ake just has, with his "knife to the throat" - you have always denigrated Muslim people with attacks on their culture.
We've learned to live with that
"That is good, but what surveys?"
You've been given them ad nauseum - read what has been put up.
Jim Carroll
MUSLIM BRITISHNESS

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 10:19 AM

"There are thousands of them here who regard the public as legitimate targets.."

No.

Wrong.

Unsubstantiated bollocks.

I thought we were getting two weeks off from stupid rash remarks?

Oh, and who are "they"?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Mrrzy
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 01:06 PM

Of course terrorism is associated with being moslem. You can't *be* a radical moslem (termed here islamist) without being moslem. The association is statistical - there were only three real types of terrorists in the recent before-time: ETA, Basque terrorists, who targeted Spanish and French civilian targets to gain political points for independence for the Basque countries; the IRA, Irish terrorists, who targeted British civilian targets to gain political points for independence for northern Ireland, and the (no neat set of initials) moslem (and arab, then) terrorists whom targeted American people and things which they believed to be christian, to gain political points against the West. After 9/11 ETA and the IRA decided not to do it anymore, so all we have left are the radical moslem terrorists, who are not only arabs anymore, see Nigeria for instance, but are still radical moslems. It is being moslem that does not predict being a terrorist, not the other way around.
Yes, an American christian couple of guys did bomb an American building full of government civilians who weren't civilians in their twisted little minds, but there is no global movement among christians or Americans in general to target we Americans for being perceived as christian. (There is a massive American christian movement against those who aren't both, but that's another thread.)
When the WTC was bombed the first time it pretty much *had* to be moslem radical anti-Western terrorists, but I was accused of racism when I said so, although the particular accuser shut right up when I was right. But who else targeted Americans, at the time? This was pre-OKCity, after all, we didn't know about the homeboys, but still, if you are a terrorist today, you are certainly radical, religious, and moslem.
Being moslem, however, does *not* make you likely to be a terrorist because so few moslems are that radical, even though all the radicals left are moslem.
It's exactly like being a New Yorker compared to living in the States. You can't live in New York and not live in the States, but just because you live in the States doesn't mean you have any likelihood at all of living in New York.
And those of you who know me know whereof I get my experience with terrorism.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST,keith A at Lochearnhead
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 01:23 PM

"Thousands of Islamist extremists in the UK see the British public as a legitimate target for attacks, the director general of MI5 has warned."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-24454596

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 01:54 PM

"You can't *be* a radical moslem (termed here islamist) without being moslem."
Fine - in which case the current cases of clerical abuse must be implicated with being a Christian - not individual examples, but a decades old practice.
The religion - culture - nationality of criminals has nothing to do with their crimes, until such time it is established otherwise
So far it has not been.
On the other hand, oil wars and illegal invasions can be linked directly to belonging to an oil hungry and dependent nation
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Mrrzy
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 02:05 PM

The priest-child-abuse thing is more than "associated with" being christian, it's a christian priest child abuse thing. Doesn't make christians child abusers, or make them priests, although to be a priest you do have to be a christian and to be a child-abusing priest you have to be a priest. Doesn't mean christians are child abusers any more than moslems are terrorists that terrorists are moslems and priests who abuse children are christian - the latter doesn't mean christians are either priests or child abusers.   It doesn't even mean that *priests* are child abusers that child abusing priests are priests. You can't go in that direction. That's what I'm saying. But you can't divorce the two just because inclusion is one-way either, there is that inclusion you have to allow for. Not to end too many sentences with prepositions.

But this thread has morphed into a version of the Islamic Radicalism thread and I'd really, really like to get back to the question of the Caliphate. If people followed them, would that make them legit?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 02:12 PM

MI5's chief said "thousands of Islamist extremists in the UK;" What are the safeguards? How were they identified? Can they be deported?

Parker said "the most direct and immediate threats to the UK" are Al Quaeda and its affiliates in Pakistan and Yemen.

Will extremist elements in the UK and other western countries recognize ISIL as a leader, or remain apart from the "caliphate?"
I think they will ignore the "caliph."

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 02:21 PM

"If people followed them, would that make them legit?"

I guess that would depend on the number of people following them. As it stands the "Caliphate" is being derided by many Muslims so time will tell. Azzam Tamimi, an academic who writes on Islamic movements, says that it is unlikely anyone except "some frustrated youth" would be receptive to Baghdadi's declaration.

"Such fanatic and desperate movements emerge usually in response to a profound crisis. Yet, their demise is usually rapid because of their tendency to be nihilistic," Tamimi said. They "fail miserably when it comes to winning over the normal and decent".

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Ed T
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 02:25 PM

Not sure what the standard for "legit" would be?

However, most governments are seen as the governing body after awhile if they establish a working government to run the cohntry, regardless of how they acquired power and if they are democratic, or a military or religious-run government or not-look at Iran, for example.

If a new power piss people off, nationalize resources, and fail to play ball with other countries, it is often a rougher ride to be seen as legitimate by other nations. Take what we now see as China, for example. Cuba, which has a similar givernment to China) is an odd example, which is pretty much recognized as legit, except by the US of A. The PLO had an observer seat at the United Nations before they really ran a government. (Oddly enough, the Holy Sea has permanent observer status at the United Nations).

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 02:52 PM

That is not a complete list of terrorist "wars".

Here are a couple of others.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 02:59 PM

Hmm, what happened there?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algerian_War

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malayan_Emergency

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberation_Tigers_of_Tamil_Eelam

Even if you support the "freedom fighters" they all attacked civilian targets at least as much as military ones.

Even the first victim of the Mau Mau was a non-combatant woman.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 03:20 PM

"Doesn't mean christians are child abusers any more than moslems are terrorists"
Drink to that a hundred times over - whoops - I already have done.
"Thousands of Islamist extremists in the UK see the British public as a legitimate target for attacks"
MI5 holds information on and considers security risks: those of us who took to the streets protesting about Vietnam, or Chile, or the Greek coup, or protests about the illegal Iraq invasion, or the Poll Tax protests, or those of us who supported the miners strike .... you may go back at least as far as The Russian Revolution and The Spanish Civil War to find a long list of enemies of the state.
Their suspects have included Trades Union leaders, politicians, cabinet ministers, even Prime Ministers....
Anybody vaguely to the left of Attila the Hun is considered a security risk by them - it is part of their job description to regard any challenge to the status-quo as 'a threat' - no doubt more than one Mudcatter appears on their long list of 'risks'
If there is a risk from returning fighters, then we have to know what that risk is and how it should be dealt with - little response on that score from our usual suspects.
The alternative is, as they have persistently done, pointed the finger at the entire culture.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 07:49 PM

A Twitter post Thursday by supporters of the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (ISIS), now calling itself the Islamic State (IS), has promised a Holocaust against the Jews.

"The Real Zionist Holocaust is Predicted in the Hadiths! The Hour [resurrection] will not take place until the Muslims fight the Jews and the Muslims kill them, and the tree will say: "Oh, Muslim, servant of God, there is a Jew behind me, kill him! THE PROMISED Holocaust," the terrorist group's Islamic State Media a graphic posted on its @ISIS_Conquests's Twitter account said.

This hadith has proven popular with Islamic extremists of all stripes, ranging from IS to Hamas – and even on television in the Middle East.

Daniel Pipes, an expert on jihadism, said the hadith likely was a recruitment tool.

"​Yes, ​calling for a holocaust against Jews refers to a violently anti-Semitic strain among jihadis and will surely appeal to some of them," Pipes said in an email to the Investigative Project on Terrorism.

Anti-Semitic propaganda has played an important role in the terrorist group's recruitment effort. Its leader, Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, placed Jews on the side of evil in a speech posted Tuesday on the Internet in which he called on Muslims to join him.

"O ummah of Islam, the world today has been divided into two camps and two trenches … The camp of Islam and faith, and the camp of kufr (disbelief) and hypocrisy … all being led by America and Russia, and being mobilized by the Jews," al-Baghdadi said.

In another such video released on Twitter, IS told jihadists to "Break the crosses and destroy the lin­eage of the grand­sons of mon­keys."

Some jihadist supporters are calling on the group to open a new front against Israel.

"@ISIS_Conquests Hey #ISIS please do us all a favour & open up a front against Israel. Surely they are the greatest enemy of humanity?" Akhmet Qassam, a supporter from Scotland, asked the group on Sunday. "@ISIS_Conquests If you open up a front against #Israel I'm sure your numbers will increase hugely. Also give you some legitimacy."

At the same time, IS may be growing cautious about drawing unwanted attention from Western intelligence and law-enforcement agencies even as it seeks new recruits.

"All Brothers and Sisters...Don't meet with IS members while you're living in the West...Move out of the West & than (sic) you get in touch with IS," @Dawla_Newsmedia wrote a day after U.S. law enforcement caught Shannon Maureen Conley, a 19-year-old woman from Denver, trying to leave the U.S. to join the IS.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST,keith A at Lochearnhead
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 05:45 AM

Anybody vaguely to the left of Attila the Hun is considered a security risk by them

"Thousands of Islamist extremists in the UK see the British public as a legitimate target for attacks, the director general of MI5 has warned."

Not quite the same.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 06:06 AM

Alarmist nonsense. Extrapolation of statistics.

Thousands of UKIP, BNP and English Defense League see British Muslims as legitimate targets too, but why don't you point that out Keith?

I wonder...

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 06:17 AM

"Alarmist nonsense" eh?

Said it before; shall probably say it again --

If you are not alarmed, that is because you are a

hidebound doctrinaire self-satisfied head-in-sand mind-made-up-so-no-facts-please

½·wit.


~M~

Oh shut-the-hell up, Michael. What's the bloody use!

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 06:20 AM

Do "Thousands of UKIP, BNP and English Defense League see British Muslims as legitimate targets for attack too?" Musket?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 08:09 AM

According to A&E statistics, police crime figures etc, yes. Not just potentially, but hate crime reality.

I have no issue with accepting the dangers in radicalised disaffected young men. I lost a colleague in 7/7 and was at Kings Cross at the time myself. But alarmist crap misrepresented in the media just serves to divide the society some are trying to harmonise. You aren't going to solve domestic risk by wondering if the nice man in the corner shop has a nephew with a rucksack. The likes of Michael can sit there all day with the door locked shitting their trousers if that's what they want to do, but some of us see that as letting a few thugs win some weird victory or other.

As I said, Muslims are fighting Islamists, not opportunist politicians, not government agencies justifying their existence and hawking ideas for a bigger budget and influence.



Michael, shut up, you know I'm not talking to you. {snigger}

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 08:41 AM

"According to A&E statistics, police crime figures etc, yes. Not just potentially, but hate crime reality. "

Not quite Musket - "Thousands of UKIP, BNP and English Defense League see British Muslims as legitimate targets too"

You then attempt to pass hate crime statistics off as an argument supporting your point of view.

2009 - there were a total of 52,028 recorded "hate crimes" in England Wales and Northern Ireland. The vast bulk of those were put down to "racial" attacks only 2,083 of them were incidents where the religion was the reason for the attack.

Why pick 2009? Iraq and Afghanistan both still running at full tilt

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 08:57 AM

" mind-made-up-so-no-facts-please "
You have produced no solid evidence of your own Mike, other than your distaste for Burkahs(you certainly have not responded to the possible reasons for Islamism, and as for a solution, you seem happy to leave that to the boys in uniform.
Everything else appears to be alarmist volcano-squatting
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 09:20 AM

Err.. No. Passing off opinions on this subject just gets Keith and other childish fools screaming that you can't have opinions unless you can find "eminent" people on the internet to put it in words for you. I am capable of forming my own, which makes it difficult to engage with them.

My opinion is just that. The facts I gave merely reflect some of what helped me form my opinion. Considering the criteria for forms of hate attack, culture and religion are in different categories, as I found out in court when giving evidence on behalf of the local A&E (I was on call director at the time of the admissions after a hate attack on a house) so I do have a bit of an inkling of what I speak about, even though, unlike some here, I know my limitations on the subject.

2014. Iraq and Afghanistan in extra time period, awaiting the penalty shoot out.

I repeat, as it gets ignored.. The risk from home grown fanatics is there, present and proven. The extent is not tested, whilst the test of the exact opposite is not just proven, but filling prisons as we speak. Successive governments use risk of terror to curtail freedoms in society so it is best to have a slight amount of sceptical assessment rather than wade in with it presented as irrefutable facts as Keith does. He lacks the intelligence to look beyond what he googles, but I am somewhat disappointed in Teribus. His views are sometimes suspect but hitherto I thought his intellect was sound.

You know, your inference that I used such figures cynically says more about you than you think.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 09:20 AM

"The vast bulk of those were put down to "racial" attacks only 2,083 of them were incidents where the religion was the reason for the attack."


The MAJORITY of which were against Jews, even though the proportion of the population the is Jewish is much smaller than the proportion that is Muslim.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 09:51 AM

Speaking of opinions I think that having heard them repeated hundreds of times over and over ad nauseam we are, by now, quite familiar with everyone's opinion on these matters. By now it's just repeating the same shit which some of us don't even bother reading as that horse died a long time ago. I am much more interested in hearing the opinions of informed people. YMMV.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 10:47 AM

"I am much more interested in hearing the opinions of informed people"
Aren't we all - nothing more tedious than a long stream of cut-'n-pastes and links to ultra-extremist web-sites.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 11:03 AM

My posts are "alarmist", Jim, if that's the word you choose, because, I repeat, I am alarmed. If you're not, that's up to you, & goody for you and I hope it keeps fine for you; and your children & grandchildren... But this is not a very sanguine hope if you & all your well-meaning but oh·so·priggish lot insist on keeping your heads down there in the sand.

That's all. No good going on. Time will tell···

···but I shan't be there to see the outcome; nor any descendant of mine as I am childless.

Regards as ever

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 12:37 PM

Nice one Bruce. Making assumptions about the victims when the point was about the perpetrators.

Not everybody is as gullible as Michael, as gormless as Keith or as blinded as yourself. Some people are capable of reading a post for what it says, without silly twisting by those with an agenda.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 12:37 PM

You still have produced no facts for your alarmism - rather like the man on Oxford Street with his. 'THE END OF THE WORLD IS NIGH' placard.
Name-calling still doesn't hack it.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Mrrzy
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 02:24 PM

Oh the catholics hate the protestants and the protestants hate the catholics and the hindus hate the moslems and everybody hates the jews but during national brotherhood week...

We used to be able to sing about this stuff.

Facts for alarmism include my father being killed by terrorists back in 1983 when they invented the carbomb in Beirut and nothing, I mean nothing, has been learned by Americans in the decades of anti-American terrorism since. To the point where many people still think 9/11 was the start of it all.

People should be alarmed, yes, but not just if they are Americans nowadays.

It, being the WWIII being waged since Nov. 1979 or earlier, is truly is turning into the barbarians versus the civilized and that is why it bothers me when people only mind the racism inherent in the wrong-way causation (that you have to be a moslem to be a radical islamist doesn't mean that if you are a moslem you have more than a minuscule chance of being a terrorist) and not the general fact that It's not just the moslems who should object to terrorism being linked to islam. But as I've said, that is a subject for the radical islamic thread, and not this one, which I am trying to limit to talking about the idea of a global moslem global mpire that isn't rooted in territory.

No homeland for the palistinians is unfair since the jews have taken theirs, I think. If there is going to be a Caliphate it should be rooted in a PLACE, no?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 02:26 PM

What you mean, "Facts"? The fact is that I am alarmed. If you mean "reasons", then say so. Any days papers will provide you with plenty of material to choose from. Start with those of 10 September 2001. Then 3 Nov 2004. Proceed to 8 July 2005. Perm any dates up to, & beyond, 23 May 2013...

Bit more there to work on, seems to me, that your Oxford St sandwichman had.

And what 'names' am I supposed to have called you -- other than such as ref your obtuse pigheadedness in refusing to see what is manifestly before you here?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 02:32 PM

Mrrzy,

The Palestinians have HAD a state since 1923 or so.

77% of the Mandate Palestine territory, in violation of the treaty creating the Mandate, was split off and made into the Arab Homeland of TransJordan, where NO Jews were allowed to settle or even own property. This was accepted by the Arabs. The British did this when there were riots between the Jews and Muslims.

The REAMAINING 32+ % of the original Mandate were to be the Jewish homeland as specified in the treaties.

In 1948, THAT (Jewish Homeland) land was divided, but the Arabs would not accept any division less than ALL for the Moslems, so they attacked the Jews. Jordan occupied the West bank, and removed all of the Jewish population that had been there previously.


The Arabs LOST, and have been demanding the unconditional surrender of Israel ever since.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 02:49 PM

None of which is a reason to mistrust the Muslim community as a whole.
There are infinitely more attacks on Muslims than there are by Muslims, indicating that the Muslim population has far more to fear from the indigenous population than we have to fear them.
All this is a fair indication that we need to mend fences - your hatred and mistrust is doing exactly the opposite - you are not attempting to reason how the problem can be solved - you are the problem.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 03:01 PM

If they came to us and asked to negotiate, as you keep urging, to 'mend fences', & really mean it, everybody on here, at least, would I am sure be delighted. As would all rational, well-intentioned people.

Can you see it happening, Jim?

Honest, now...

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Mrrzy
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 09:20 PM

The palistinians have had a state since prehistory, actually, but we (the rest of the world) don't recognize it as a place today... and yes, they lost, but they still seem to be there and not be israeli, so what are they? Stateless? Citizens of Jordan etc? If they could belong to a greater nation that wasn't jewish, wouldn't they want to? And if so, why aren't they hip to the idea of the Caliphate? Are they the wrong kind of moslem, Ali v. Omar?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 09:42 PM

More than 92% of Jordanians are Sunni Muslims.


Jordan 

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 10:05 PM

Mrrzy makes, it seems to me, a good point. I would in some respects go further. The establishment of the mandate was never by lawful authority, only the result of power. The relevant Arab peoples were freed from the oppression of the Ottoman Empire by its collapse. The lawful right of a fresh conqueror, terrified by Zionist terrorists, to impose - by agreement with other invading colonial powers - a new religious homeland in lands that had been Arab since time immemorial has never been clear to me.

Equivalently, the establishment of a caliphate would be an unacceptable imposition of a theocracy on many independent people. A murrain upon religion!

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Mrrzy
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 12:44 AM

Bully! I mean that in the British, approving way, BTW, not the American bad way!

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 02:09 AM

"The establishment of the mandate was never by lawful authority, only the result of power."
.,,.
How so, Richard? It was established at the end of WW1 by the League of Nations, after General Allenby had captured the territory from the Turks, prior to which it had for several hundred years been part of the Ottoman Empire. After that, even before the League came into being, the British were regarded as being responsible for it, whence the Balfour Declaration of 1917 in response to a request from Weizmann after he had expressed desire for his people, rather than himself, to be rewarded for his contributions to the Allied victories {see Chaim Weizmann in Wikipedia}. The staying on of the British after the League was dissolved led to all sorts of complications which need not be gone into here, leading up to the declaration of Israeli statehood in 1948; when another narrative takes over as we all know ad nauseam from googol threads. Arab residents who had remained there were, & remain, full citizens of Israel. Try googling Arab [or "Palestinian"] Members Of Knesset, for instance.

Richard has to a considerable extent got hold of the wrong end of some stick it seems to me.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 02:35 AM

"Can you see it happening, Jim? "
I can see no other solution Mike - you certainly haven't come up with an alternative.
The present Government have said as much - the the Muslim population have to become involved in 'combating terrorism'
British Muslims have shown themselves ready to play a full part in British life - far readier than I would have thought given the circumstances and the history of racism shown towards them - if it can't happen, it will have been because of that history.
I won't ask for your alternative because you've already told us that it's not your job.
Fine - leave it to the boys in uniform - it's worked well enough in the past!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 04:58 AM

Quite, Jim. You see no other solution; and this solution is unattainable, I fear.

If the Palestinians even wanted to negotiate, 'mend fences' as you put it, which I take leave to doubt, Hamas & ISIS & all such Arabist militant movements would step in & scare them off by threatening to kill their leaders if they took even a step towards the negotiation table. You know this is true.

I'm as unhappy about it all as you are; but you shouldn't be so scornful of me, really, I think, for saying I can't think of a solution to a problem to which I honestly do not believe there is one. I have quoted 12th Night in this particular before; make no apology for doing so again --

"Oh, Time, thou must untangle this, not I.
'Tis too hard a knot for me to untie"

And so say, unhappily, all of us!

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 05:10 AM

I think you make my point for me, MtheGM. Nobody who purported to do so had proper right to give any part of Arab land to Zionists (or to anybody else). The only people who could do that would have been a properly established government of the Arab peoples.

What would you say if the UN decided that the Celts deserved a homeland in Surrey or Essex?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 05:17 AM

Of the two, Essex. Mrs Musket stands to inherit land in Surrey and we can't have property prices depressed, what?

Actually, that was a bit daft. Bridge makes a goo...   good po......poi..........poinnnnnnnn....

Oh bugger it.

Bridge makes a good point.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 05:43 AM

Richard: My position is, as you can extrapolate from my posts in all threads on this topic for years, equivocal, one of complete ambivalence. But the only place to start is here. Do not, please, be like the yokel in the joke asked for directions and replying "Well, you can't start from here". It's the only place to start, without going into the ins-and-outs, moral or historical, of how we got here. Whether we should admire or denounce those early Russian-Jewish pioneers who just moved in and founded Kibbutz Daganiyah; whether Lord Balfour should have made his 1917 Declaration to reward Weizmann for help in winning WW1; what the British Mandate authorities should have done; whether negotiation was ever possible; what would have happened if the 1948 partition plan had been accepted by all sides ~~ all these are vain conjectures -- as vain as trying to re-establish Celtic rule over Essex.

There Israel is, like it or not. Its enemies are not going to accept its presence. It isn't going to go away.

Hence my reply to Jim a couple of posts back. Here we jolly well are, Nowhere to go from here. But we have got to go somewhere.

So -- somebody's move.

Whose?

And whither?

You tell me...

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST,keith A at Lochearnhead
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 06:56 AM

Someone could say that the Arab people have rather a lot of land apart from that tiny little sliver, and it is hardly worth another eighty years of killing just to try to get that silly little bit back from people with nowhere else to go anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 07:26 AM

Richard,

If the treaties ending WW I and the countries created are not valid, I think that you should look at how many nations you have just made illegal- Lebanon, Jordan (twice over!), Syria,Iraq,Much of eastern europe,etc.

If you insist that ONLY Israel is illegal, while the others are OK, then you fall under the EU definition of an Anti-Semite.

Mandate Palestine was as legal ( and not more so) as Lebanon, Syria, and Iraq)

"The decisions of the San Remo conference confirmed the mandate allocations of the First Conference of London (February 1920). The San Remo Resolution adopted on 25 April 1920 incorporated the Balfour Declaration of 1917. It and Article 22 of the Covenant of the League of Nations were the basic documents upon which the British Mandate for Palestine was constructed. Under the Balfour Declaration, the British government had undertaken to favour the establishment of a Jewish national home in Palestine without prejudice to the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country. Britain received the mandate for Palestine and Iraq; France gained control of Syria, including present-day Lebanon. Under the agreement, Great Britain granted France 25 percent of the oil production from Mosul and France undertook to deliver oil to the Mediterranean. The draft peace agreement with Turkey signed at the conference became the basis for the 1920 Treaty of Sèvres. Germany was called upon to carry out its military and reparation obligations under the Versailles Treaty, and a resolution was adopted in favor of restoring trade with Russia.[12]

Recognizing that not all parts of the Middle East were ready for full independence, mandates were established for the government of three territories: Syria and Lebanon, Mesopotamia (Iraq) and Palestine. In each case, one of the Allied Powers was assigned to implement the mandate until the territories in question could "stand alone.""

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 07:44 AM

Richard,

"lands that had been Arab since time immemorial"

You mean that there were not previous Jewish states in that region- that were destroyed " never by lawful authority, only the result of power. " ?


Or is it that you CHOOSE to look ONLY at the timescale you desire?

If 2200 years is too long, then so is 600.

If 47 years ( since 1967) is too short , then so is 66 (since 1948)

So either Israel has historical precedent, or it has right of conquest.




Which are you claiming is valid????

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 07:54 AM

No Bruce. The treaties to which you refer could not lawfully give land that had reverted to the Arabs on the fall of the Ottoman Empire to anyone else.

19-8 (or 20) to now is a very big difference to the time scale from when you assert that the Jews left the relevant area. You say 2200 years. The Ottoman Empire was established in about 1300 - about 700 years back from now, 600 from then.

So the Zionists did not control what is now Israel (under any view of the borders) for 1500 years. That negates any valid claim they had to the area.

Mither - we have to stop meeting like this!

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 08:02 AM

So you agree that in 3467 Arabs will lose all rights any part of the West Bank?


All Israel has to do is wait it out...

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 08:09 AM

"The treaties to which you refer could not lawfully give land that had reverted to the Arabs on the fall of the Ottoman Empire to anyone else.
"

So the nations of Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, and Jordan are no more valid than Israel is.

All set up by the Mandate Powers.


Non-democratic governments at the time they were formed.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 09:14 AM

Being displaced doesn't remove rights as indigenous people NO MATTER HOW LONG THEY ARE DISPLACED FOR. If people do not lose their indigenous status through being displaced, and people do not subsume indigenous status through conquering indigenous people and "replacing them," then the Arabs are not indigenous to the ancestral lands of the Jewish people. Jews have been there for three thousand years and everything that makes them Jews began there."

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 09:30 AM

"You see no other solution; and this solution is unattainable, I fear. "
Then there are only the options I have mentioned - send them all back or gas them all.
I was referring to how any problems arising from returning Jihadists to Britain should be dealt with.
Trying to enlist the general Muslim population has never been tried, in spite of the goodwill that has always been forthcoming.
It seems to me that those who are not prepared to try it, or not prepared to come up with their own suggestions are the problem, not them.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 09:54 AM

"Then there are only the options I have mentioned - send them all back or gas them all."

.,,.
But you are well aware that these are not 'options' at all, aren't you, Jim? As Penelope Keith as Margot used to say innocently in The Good Life: "You're making fun, aren't you?"

In fact, tho, you are just being deliberately provocative. It's actually a dishonest bit of rhetoric, Jim. I assert that we have a problem without an evident solution; so you can imply that I have suggested your two putative non-'options' when I have not even implied either in any manner whatever.

You may try to deny it, to yourself as well as to us; but that is a typical Jim Carroll mode of argument; and if you hadn't realised that before, realise it now, for crying out loud. And then realise you will really have to do better. All of a piece with your notorious 'here to steal our jobs' accusation, which you had to climb down from with some fatuous piece of evasion about its being a 'rhetorical assertion attained by following the impetus of the argument", or some such silliness.
.,,.

"Trying to enlist the general Muslim population has never been tried, in spite of the goodwill that has always been forthcoming"

A dubious assertion, I think. Look at the part played in our national life by many prominent Muslims, who have come forward with goodwill, and been embraced by the nation as a whole --

from Wikipedia

"Muslims are playing an increasingly prominent role in political life.[67] There are currently eight Muslim MPs[68] and twelve Muslim Peers (there have historically been about fourteen, starting with Lord Stanley, a peer that lived in the 19th century). The majority of British Muslims vote for the Labour Party,[69] however there are some high profile Conservative Muslims, including Minister for Faith and Communities and former Co-Chairman of the Conservative Party Sayeeda Warsi and Economic Secretary to the Treasury Sajid Javid,[70] described by The Guardian as a 'rising star' in the Tory party.[71] The Guardian stated that "The treasury minister is highly regarded on the right and would be the Tories' first Muslim leader."
British Muslims are well represented in various media positions across different organisations. Notable examples include Mehdi Hasan, the political editor of the UK version of The Huffington Post[73] and the presenter of Al Jazeera English shows The Café and Head to Head,[74] Mishal Husain, a British news presenter for the BBC, currently appearing on BBC World News and BBC Weekend News, Rageh Omaar, special correspondent with ITV and formerly Senior Foreign Correspondent with the BBC and a reporter/presenter for Al Jazeera English,[75] and Faisal Islam, economics editor and correspondent for Channel 4 News'.'[76]
There are several Islamic television channels operating in the UK, including Muslim Television Ahmadiyya International (MTA International),[77][78] Ummah Channel,[79] and Ahlebait TV."

Does all this suggest the universal failure you suggest, Jim, to make any accommodation with that section of our demographic? If others prefer to live in enclaves in Bradford, Southall, Leicester, or wherever, then what are you yourself doing about trying to bring them forward into the mainstream as the ones named above have done?

Just asking --

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 10:09 AM

Perhaps after

"If others prefer to live in enclaves in Bradford, Southall, Leicester,"

I should insert

"or set out to reject with violence our institutions and lifestyle, and instead convert their energies into fighting and threatening us, murdering our citizens, &c, as a small but vocal and disproportionately effective minority have done, and are still doing from their present jihadi strongholds in Syria"

and then resume from

"then what are you yourself doing about trying to bring them forward into the mainstream as the ones named above have done?"

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 10:12 AM

Bruce: There will come a time at which continued occupation gives legitimacy, yes. It isn't yet. For example the Irish were ruled by the English for several hundred years but on this forum are widely thought to have been in the right in ejecting the UK from the Republic of Ireland. Conversely, we would I think widely accept the succession to UK governance that was rooted in the Norman Conquest (a vile piece of genocide - about 94% of the then English upper classes (and nearly so) were exterminated). A Latin claim to rule over what was the Roman Empire would be thought laughable.

Bobad - yes they do. See above. You want the Welsh in Essex? If there is no cutoff date (or at least soft floor) then the takeover by Israel of Canaan (if the Bible is right about that) makes the Israelites the invaders of an earlier pan-Semitic population. The diaspora represented an abandonment of rights to dominate the area, quite long enough ago to be valid.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 10:18 AM

And this all without prejudice to my stated and acknowledged alarm as to the future, stemming from your (individually & as a type) complacent refusal to take account of the effect and influence liable to be achieved by that minority I adduce, and trying to discount it as an ineffectual non-threat. Just ask the widows Van Gogh and Rigby how ineffectual and worthy of ignoring and discounting this minority is.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 10:25 AM

"If there is no cutoff date..."

Pray tell us what is this "Cutoff date"?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 01:25 PM

Richard,

If the treaties ending WW I and the countries created are not valid, I think that you should look at how many nations you have just made illegal- Lebanon, Jordan (twice over!), Syria,Iraq,Much of eastern europe,etc.

If you insist that ONLY Israel is illegal, while the others are OK, then you fall under the EU definition of an Anti-Semite.

Mandate Palestine was as legal ( and not more so) as Lebanon, Syria, and Iraq)

"The decisions of the San Remo conference confirmed the mandate allocations of the First Conference of London (February 1920). The San Remo Resolution adopted on 25 April 1920 incorporated the Balfour Declaration of 1917. It and Article 22 of the Covenant of the League of Nations were the basic documents upon which the British Mandate for Palestine was constructed. Under the Balfour Declaration, the British government had undertaken to favour the establishment of a Jewish national home in Palestine without prejudice to the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country. Britain received the mandate for Palestine and Iraq; France gained control of Syria, including present-day Lebanon. Under the agreement, Great Britain granted France 25 percent of the oil production from Mosul and France undertook to deliver oil to the Mediterranean. The draft peace agreement with Turkey signed at the conference became the basis for the 1920 Treaty of Sèvres. Germany was called upon to carry out its military and reparation obligations under the Versailles Treaty, and a resolution was adopted in favor of restoring trade with Russia.[12]

Recognizing that not all parts of the Middle East were ready for full independence, mandates were established for the government of three territories: Syria and Lebanon, Mesopotamia (Iraq) and Palestine. In each case, one of the Allied Powers was assigned to implement the mandate until the territories in question could "stand alone.""

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 01:46 PM

Did you not read my earlier answer, Brucie?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 01:55 PM

And my reply was:




"The treaties to which you refer could not lawfully give land that had reverted to the Arabs on the fall of the Ottoman Empire to anyone else.
"

So the nations of Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, and Jordan are no more valid than Israel is.

All set up by the Mandate Powers.


Non-democratic governments at the time they were formed."




Did you not read my earlier answer, Dickie?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 02:03 PM

No interest in Ibrahim's caliphate actions, financing and successes?

All this stuff about treaties belongs in the threads on that subject.

Iran is sending more fighter jets to the Iraq government, to fight the caliphate. Iran also offered help to Lebanon to fight the threat.

ISIS has taken over six Syrian oil fields (one with 75,000 bbl/day capacity) and a pumping station.

Threatening to Iraq and its Shias is the fact that some Syrian Sunnis are turning to ISIS.

ISIS has taken large areas in Syria and Iraq, but the BBC asks, whether they can rule what they have taken.
The tribes of the region are occupied with the Syrian civil war, so cannot be effective against ISIS.

ISIS is well-armed, well-funded, and intolerant. No real opposition in the lands they have taken.

The Saudi government, Sunni, is not funding ISIS, but they cannot block individual donations.

ISIS levels about $8 million/month on local businesses. It has the funds of the banks in conquered Mosul.

ISIS will continue to control large areas for some time to come.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 02:23 PM

It seems people around here are not too interested in ISIS because there are no Jews involved...........yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 02:31 PM

The Jews in Iraq (Hebrew: יְהוּדִים בָּבְלִים, Babylonian Jews, Yehudim Bavlim, Arabic: يهود العراق‎ Yahūd al-ʿIrāq) is documented from the time of the Babylonian captivity c. 586 BC. Iraqi Jews constitute one of the world's oldest and most historically significant Jewish communities.

The Jewish community of Babylon included Ezra the scribe, whose return to Judea in the late 6th century BC is associated with significant changes in Jewish ritual observance and the rebuilding of the Temple in Jerusalem. The Talmud was compiled in Babylonia, identified with modern Iraq.[2]

From the Babylonian period to the rise of the Islamic caliphate, the Jewish community of Babylon thrived as the center of Jewish learning. The Mongol invasion and Islamic discrimination in the Middle Ages led to its decline.[3] Under the Ottoman Empire, the Jews of Iraq fared better. The community established modern schools in the second-half of the 19th century.[4]

In the 20th century, Iraqi Jews played an important role in the early days of Iraq's independence. Between 1950-52, 120,000-130,000 of the Iraqi Jewish community (around 75%) were transported to Israel in Operation Ezra and Nehemiah.[5]
…..

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 02:32 PM

more on Iraqi Jews

In 1948, the country was placed under martial law, and the penalties for Zionism were increased. Courts martial were used to intimidate wealthy Jews, Jews were again dismissed from civil service, quotas were placed on university positions, Jewish businesses were boycotted (E. Black, p. 347) and Shafiq Ades (one of the most important anti-Zionist Jewish businessmen in the country) was arrested and executed for allegedly selling goods to Israel, shocking the community (Tripp, 123). Additionally, like most Arab League states, Iraq forbade any legal emigration of its Jews on the grounds that they might go to Israel and could strengthen that state. At the same time, increasing government oppression of the Jews fueled by anti-Israeli sentiment together with public expressions of anti-semitism created an atmosphere of fear and uncertainty. 1948, the year of Israel's independence was a rough year for the Jews of Iraq:

In July 1948, the government passed a law making all Zionist activity punishable by execution, with a minimum sentence of seven years imprisonment,
On August 28, 1948, Jews were forbidden to engage in banking or foreign currency transactions,
In September 1948, Jews were dismissed from the railways, the post office, the telegraph department and the Finance Ministry on the ground that they were suspected of "sabotage and treason,"
On October 8, 1948, the issuance of export and import licenses to Jewish merchants was forbidden,
On October 19, 1948, the discharge of all Jewish officials and workers from all governmental departments was ordered,
In October, the Egyptian paper, El-Ahram, estimated that as a result of arrests, trials and sequestation of property, the Iraqi treasury collected some 20 million dinars or the equivalent of 80 million U.S. dollars,
On December 2, 1948, the Iraq government suggested to oil companies operating in Iraq, that no Jewish employees be accepted.[16]
"With very few exceptions, only Jews wore watches. On spotting one that looked expensive, a policeman had approached the owner as if to ask the hour. Once assured the man was Jewish, he relieved him of the timepiece and took him into custody. The watch, he told the judge, contained a tiny wireless; he'd caught the Jew, he claimed, sending military secrets to the Zionists in Palestine. Without examining the "evidence" or asking any questions, the judge pronounced his sentence. The "traitor" went to prison, the watch to the policeman as reward." (Haddad, p. 176).[17]

In 19 February 1949 , Nuri al-Said acknowledged the bad treatment that the Jews had been victims of in Iraq during the recent months. He warned that unless Israel would behave itself, events might take place concerning the Iraqi Jews.[18]

The great emigration to Israel[edit]
By 1949, the Iraqi Zionist underground had become well-established (despite many arrests), and they were smuggling Iraqi Jews out of the country illegally at a rate of 1,000 a month.[19] Hoping to stem the flow of assets from the country, in March 1950 Iraq passed a law of one year duration allowing Jews to emigrate on condition of relinquishing their Iraqi citizenship. They were motivated, according to Ian Black, by "economic considerations, chief of which was that almost all the property of departing Jews reverted to the state treasury" and also that "Jews were seen as a restive and potentially troublesome minority that the country was best rid of." (p. 91) Israel was initially reluctant to absorb so many immigrants, (Hillel, 1987) but eventually mounted an airlift in March 1951 called "Operation Ezra and Nehemiah" to bring as many of the Iraqi Jews as possible to Israel, and sent agents to Iraq to urge the Jews to register for immigration as soon as possible. Between 1948 and 1951 121,633 Jews left the country, leaving 15,000 behind.[20]

From the start of the emigration law in March 1950 until the end of the year, 60,000 Jews registered to leave Iraq. In addition to continuing arrests and the dismissal of Jews from their jobs, this exodus was encouraged by a series of bombings starting in April 1950 that resulted in a number of injuries and a few deaths. Two months before the expiration of the law, by which time about 85,000 Jews had registered, another bomb at the Masuda Shemtov synagogue killed 3 or 5 Jews and injured many others. The law expired in March 1951 but was later extended after the Iraqi government froze the assets of departing Jews, including those who had already left. During the next few months, all but a few thousand of the remaining Jews registered for emigration, spurred on by a sequence of further bombings that caused few casualties but had great psychological impact. In Operation Ezra and Nehemiah, some 120,000 Jews were airlifted to Israel via Iran and Cyprus.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 02:37 PM

The history of the Jews of Iraq began, in fact, with the exile of the Jews of Palestine by the Assyrians and, later, the Babylonians. The deportation of Palestinian Jewry to Babylon occurred in three waves:
1.        The Exile of Samaria (721 B.C.E.), in which ten Hebrew tribes were exiled by the Assyrians.
2.        The Exile of Jehoiachin (597 B.C.E.), in which ten thousand inhabitants of Jerusalem were brought to Babylonia by Nebuchadnezzar.
3.        The Exile of Zidqiah (586 B.C.E.), which marked the end of the Kingdom of Judah, the ruin of Jerusalem and the destruction of King Solomon's first temple. About forty thousand Jews were exiled by the Babylonians during that time.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 02:44 PM

And what of the "Caliphate of Ibrahim?????

Old history can be found in books and on the net.

Were the Neanderthals the first "tribe" in Iraq's current area?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 02:48 PM

"A dubious assertion"
Tell that to the Muslims who live in fear of having ptrol poured through their letter boxes, or have to board up their windows, or accompany their children to school for fear of them being attacked....
Or those whose sons fall victim of the recognised institutional racism in the police force.
None of those Muslims you mentioned as being afforded privileges in Britain would com anywhere near to being affected by any of this - these are not the people who need to be won over.
I didn't respond to you when you replied to my question of how many Muslims you had met by telling me of those you knew at Uni
Rather like the judge at the Lady Chatterly trial asking the jury if they would be happy if their servants read the book.
We appear to live in different world Mike.
"Van Gogh and Rigby how ineffectual and worthy of ignoring and discounting this minority is."
How about you asking the family of Bijan Ebrahimi (who?) beaten and burned to death for trying to stop white yobs from vandalising his home - or the many thousands of Muslims who live in fear for their safety, their property, even their lives.
If you have no answer and are nor even to consider suggestions, you are little more than a rabble-rouser whose only contribution is to gve support to the thugs
Jim Carroll

http://www.voanews.com/content/anti-muslim-attacks-nearly-double-in-britain/1832260.html

MUSLIM WOMEN IN BRITAIN

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 02:48 PM

Now the Caliphate will drive out ( or kill) the Christians and then the remaining Islamic groups that do not agree with them.

And they are not even the ones who lived in Iraq- Most supporters of the Caliphate seem to be from Syria.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 02:51 PM

And IF 1950 is "ancient History" then 1967 is not much better- So why the demands to roll back the borders of Israel to 1967, to take advantage of the military conquests of the Arab League, when the military conquests of Israel are considered illegal?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 02:56 PM

O,

From the opening post:
"does that mean that the Palestinians actually have an islamic "home"land now?"

Thus the discussion of the PRESENT Palestinian Homeland of TransJordan ( now Jordan),
created in violation of the Mandate by Great Britain

"On 21 March 1921, the Foreign and Colonial office legal advisers decided to introduce Article 25 into the Mandatory Palestine, which brought Transjordan under the mandate and stated that in that territory, Britain could 'postpone or withhold' those articles of the Mandate concerning a Jewish national home. It was approved by Curzon on 31 March 1921, and the revised final draft of the mandate (including Transjordan) was forwarded to the League of Nations on 22 July 1922.[14][15] In August 1922, the British government presented a memorandum to the League of Nations stating that Transjordan would be excluded from all the provisions dealing with Jewish settlement, and this memorandum was approved by the League on 12 August.

Abdullah established his government on 11 April 1921.[16] Britain administered the part west of the Jordan as Palestine, and the part east of the Jordan as Transjordan.[17] Technically they remained one mandate, but most official documents referred to them as if they were two separate mandates. In May 1923 Transjordan was granted a degree of independence with Abdullah as ruler and St John Philby as chief representative.[18]"

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 02:59 PM

Jim,

Your post belongs in the other thread…

"If you have no answer and are nor even to consider suggestions, you are little more than a rabble-rouser whose only contribution is to gve support to the thugs
"

So please tell us your answer, since you reject everyone else's suggestions?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 03:13 PM

He's already given us his answer, Bruce; "we must negotiate, 'mend fences'" ···

and an excellent answer it is too; if only they would. But he has not answered my point, that they wouldn't for fear of what Hamas or any of such would do to them if they suspected they even thought of it.

So then I am deficient, and a mischievous "rabble-rouser" for not thinking he is talking much sense. Precisely which 'thugs' I am giving support to, because I confess myself unable to suggest solutions to insoluble problems, & remain alarmed at the foreseeable consequences of the complacent head-burying shrugging off of the problem of militant islamism in our midst by such as him, he doesn't specify.

I am no more responsible by my thinking for deplorable attacks on individual muslims than he is for the killing of Mr Rigby -- much less, in fact, I would submit. But just try to get that idea into J Carroll's permanently locked up intellect.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 07:07 PM

"The palistinians (sic) have had a state since prehistory, ..."

Mrrzy, that is an over broad reading of history (or prehistory), and has no basis in normative scholarship. I do not claim to be an expert of the ANE, but it was my area of study for my B.A. in History, and I have been an interested layman for over fifty years since. I know that to most folks, here, history of the area has no meaning. I personally prefer the term Levant, a term not used quite so much now, to describe the area from NE Sinai along the Mediterranean Coast to SE Anatolia (Turkey) and eastward into what is now parts of Jordan and Syria. The reason for my preference is that "Levant" carries no emotional religious, ethnic nor racial baggage in discussing the history of that place.

Palestine is the English form of the Latin word for Philistines, an arch foe of Israelites in the pre-Monarchic period and the early kingdom period of Israel from the 10th century BCE (BC). Philistines were neither Arab peoples or Semitic peoples; they came from the Mediterranean islands, most notably Crete, Cyprus and Sardinia, and were kin to the later Greeks.

Arabs (that is folks from the Arabian peninsula, were not a major player in the area, except for traders, until the Roman period in the Levant (2nd century BCE. And, of course, there was no Muslim presence until the mid-7th century CE(AD), which coincides with a great Arab influx into the Levant, even until modern times.

If you, Mrrzy (or anyone) are truly interested in the History, PM me. If I get a few requests I will put a small reading list together for you.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Lighter
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 08:45 PM

Those who ignore history are doomed to be held in esteem by zealots who don't give a damn.

Those who know history are mostly doomed to be ignored by everyone else.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 09:56 PM

"So the nations of Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, and Jordan are no more valid than Israel is." "All set up by the Mandate Powers." beardedbruce @8:09 AM today.

More to this--
The Mandates set by the League of Nations in the Middle East were
Iraq - British
Palestine - British
Syria - French
Lebanon - French

The French mandates evolved into independent countries in 1946.
Iraq, in which the Hashemi family of Arabia was installed as rulers gained full independence in 1932.

Which brings us back to Palestine. The British made promises to two groups for independent states, Jews and Arabs, fore homelands in Palestine. In 1923 the area of Palestine east of the Jordan River was split off as the Arab homeland. BUT the Brits did not choose a local Arab as ruler. The Brits brought into Transjordan a non Palestinian from Iraq, another branch of the Hashemis (which had expected to rule Iraq) as a consolation for British perfidy. Transjordan (as Jordan) became fully independent in 1946.

Perhaps because there was no Palestinian leadership allowed in the country consisting of Palestinian population, and because of anti-Jewish sentiment and pogroms in Palestine from the 1920s to the 1940s, the Palestinians recognize Jordan as the Palestinian homeland.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 02:10 AM

"and an excellent answer it is too; if only they would. But he has not answered my point, that they wouldn't for fear of what Hamas or any of such would do to them if they suspected they even thought of it."
If you are talking about Israel/Palestine - ho many peace conferences have there been so far, and how many times has Israel been the direct cause of sabotaging those attempts at peace?
Even Israel's strongest ally, the United States, declared that she Israel's behaviour was the direct cause of scuppering the last on - not Hamas.
Israel has no interest in any peace that doesn't involve her being allowed to expand, to keep what she has won by military force and to allow her to continue her aim of an Apartheid state.
The idea that Hamas "holds a knife at the throat" of the Palestinian people is as much of a dishonest cop-out as is the idea that mending fences with the Muslim population in Britain is not possible because of a similar threat by extremists here.
The Islamist bogey-man is an argument for vilifying all Muslims, no more - an excuse for doing nothing.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 07:31 AM

Thank you, John.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 07:57 AM

That is interesting John, but surely the more important question is who occupied the lands before the Ottoman Empire. It seems to me that the history is very relevant. You for the first time suggest that the population of the Levant (a useful naming suggestion) was then not Arabian but "Philistine" - that is to say from other parts of the Eastern Mediterranean. At least I think that that is your thesis. I should like to see more support for that, and perhaps it turns at least in part on who is "an Arab".

However, if they were "Philistine" (which you equate to "Palestinian") then upon the fall of the Ottoman Empire the Philistines became, by reversion, those entitled to the Levant.

I progress from there to say that the difference between Israel and the other states to which BB refers is that Israel was given to invaders who had not been there for thousands of years, whereas although the rulership of other states may have been from outsiders the people there were those to whom reversion (under government) occurred.

I do note however that BB offers some factual support for the view that the proposers of what has become Israel were terrorists.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 09:13 AM

an excuse for doing nothing.
Jim Carroll"

.,.,

All v well being selfrighteous, Jim. But what is to be done? See bobad's post of just a few minutes back on the Small Hope thread: Hamas will not negotiate, and will not allow anyone else to either. Do you think our internal Islamists here will allow any such accommodations either? & if you think that's just a 'bogeyman', then I ask again, what did Mr Rigby die of -- nasty attack of hay·fever, wasn't it?

♫ ···
Oh what's the use
Why do I bother?
Think I'll just go back
To bed ··· ♫♫

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: pdq
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 10:40 AM

"However, if they were "Philistine" (which you equate to "Palestinian") then upon the fall of the Ottoman Empire the Philistines became, by reversion, those entitled to the Levant.


The Philistines have been gone for many centuries. Mostly went to Egypt I understand.

The people called palestinians are just garden variety Arabs with no historical claim to the area. Many countries sent Arab people into the area when the Zionist movement was observed. They were supposed to block the Jews, perhaps terrorize them.

Mark Twain visited the area in the late 1900s and found it nearly empty.

There are now far too many Arabs to fit back on the Arabian Peninsula. In fact, The Arab World is now composed of 20 Arab-speaking countries, not including Israel, which they also claim.

As used by Balfour, Palestine = Canaan = Israel = Holy Lands. Yes, a Jewish Homeland which is what The Mandate was supposed to re-estalblish.

Present use of palestinian is a public relations ploy used by Yarir Arafat.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 11:25 AM

"an excuse for doing nothing."
As I said - an excuse for doing nothing - go back to bed.
Can't find anything from Bobad - but then again, I can get most of whet he has to say direct from the horses mouth - Muslim Watch, White Supremist or Gatestone.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 11:52 AM

'During the period of the Mandate, it was the Jewish population that was known as "Palestinians" including those who served in the British Army in World War II.

The current myth is that these Arabs were long established in Palestine, until the Jews came and "displaced" them. The fact is, that recent Arab immigration into Palestine "displaced" the Jews. That the massive increase in Arab population was very recent is attested by the ruling of the United Nations: That any Arab who had lived in Palestine for two years and then left in 1948 qualifies as a "Palestinian refugees". After the 1967 war this was changed to "Israeli refugees.

What was to become of "Palestine" after the Mandate? This question was taken up by various British and international commissions and other bodies, culminating with the United Nations in 1947. By 1948, the Arabs had still not yet discovered their ancient nation of Falastin. When they were offered half of Palestine west of the Jordan River for a state, the offer was violently rejected. Six Arab states launched a war of annihilation against the nascent State of Israel. Their purpose was not to establish an independent Falastin. Their aim was to partition western Palestine amongst themselves.

They did not succeed in killing Israel, but Trans-Jordan succeeded in taking Judea and Samaria (West Bank) and East Jerusalem, killing or driving out all the Jews who had lived in those places, and banning Jews of all nations from Jewish holy places. Egypt succeeded in taking the Gaza Strip. These two Arab states held these lands until 1967. Then they launched another war of annihilation against Israel, and in consequence lost the lands they had taken by war in 1948. During those 19 years, 1948-1967, Jordan and Egypt never offered to surrendar those lands to make up an independent state of Falastin. The "Palestinians" never sought it. Nobody in the world ever suggested it,much less demanded it.
"

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 12:01 PM

"As I said - an excuse for doing nothing - go back to bed."
.,,.

OK Jim.

Goo'night.

Oh, BTW ~~ still haven't answered my question, have you...

Like -- what are YOU going to DO?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Correction to my post yesterday
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 12:06 PM

"Perhaps because there was no Palestinian leadership allowed in the country consisting of Palestinian population, and because of anti-Jewish sentiment and pogroms in Palestine from the 1920s to the 1940s, the Palestinians recognize Jordan as the Palestinian homeland."

The last clause should have read, "...the Palestinians DO NOT recognize Jordan as a Palestinian homeland."

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 01:07 PM

Richard Bridge—Thank you for your response. I'm sorry to have to use your full post to frame my answers to you in brackets [-], but I know not HTML to colorize or italicize what I wanted to say...and I didn't want to use all CAPS, lest you think I'm yelling at you. It is difficult to present thousands of years of history into a few paragraphs, so I'm happy to clarify my post for you. Richard, I make you the same offer I made Mrrzy, PM me and I will send you a brief reading list, but everything I've written can be easily searched on the web.

                                                                   ======================
That is interesting John, but surely the more important question is who occupied the lands before the Ottoman Empire. It seems to me that the history is very relevant. You for the first time suggest that the population of the Levant (a useful naming suggestion) [maybe on this thread, but over the years I have used 'Levant' on occasion on the 'Cat] was then not Arabian but "Philistine" - that is to say from other parts of the Eastern Mediterranean. [The Philistines did not control the Levant, only a small portion in the southwest around Gaza-five cities] At least I think that that is your thesis. I should like to see more support for that, and perhaps it turns at least in part on who is "an Arab".

However, if they were "Philistine" (which you equate to "Palestinian") [This is not my equation, it is the accepted etymology of the word.] then upon the fall of the Ottoman Empire the Philistines became, by reversion, those entitled to the Levant. [The irony of the Roman renaming the area for the Jews most feared enemy, is that they had disappeared as an entity centuries before.]

I progress from there to say that the difference between Israel and the other states to which BB refers is that Israel was given to invaders who had not been there for thousands of years [this is incorrect. Jews, always were a portion of the population of the Levant, although not in control of any of it after the failure of the Bar Khochba revolt in the 2nd century CE] whereas although the rulership of other states may have been from outsiders the people there were those to whom reversion (under government) occurred. [I'm sorry, I don't understand what your conclusion, here, is.]

I do note however that BB offers some factual support for the view that the proposers of what has become Israel were terrorists. [It is true that the Romans considered Judeans to be what we call terrorists, the historic term is the Zealots. In modern times the British considered some Jews--both Palestinian born and immigrants—who were denied their promised portion of Palestine for a homeland after the Palestinians had received theirs].

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 01:13 PM

"Like -- what are YOU going to DO?"
As you say - it's somebody elses job to do things - I have mede my suggestions - you have yet to do so.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 01:33 PM

Yes, Jim. I am really not trying to be quarrelsome, or merely score points, this time. But you honestly have not answered [what I consider to be] my unanswerable objections to your proposed solution; that it would be, literally, a non-starter, because the main necessary participants would not come to the negotiating table under any consideration whatever: as you will see if you will just read that bobad post on the other "Small Hopes" thread that I have already ref'd you to; and which can't be as difficult for you to find as you claimed, as it is immediately adjacent to one of yours. In fact, I hope he won't mind, but I copy it here for you to consider; in, I repeat, a spirit of opposition to your views, but I hope not aggressively:

"I spent hours yesterday morning and afternoon trying to convince my main Hamas contact to speak to his leaders to call for an immediately unconditional 24 hour ceasefire in order to prevent the escalation. My message made it all the way up to Khaled Mashal. I wanted to try to prevent the inevitable death of innocent people and the destruction that this war would cause.
The Hamas leadership decided to ignore the possibility of the ceasefire and challenged Israel to "bring it on". These irresponsible leaders are criminals to their own people. I can honestly say that Netanyahu did not want to escalate this war. It is so unfortunate that these Hamas leaders, some sitting in hotel abroad and others safely hiding underground in Gaza put the innocent people of Gaza in the direct line of fire. This is criminal.
Force alone will never be a proper response to the problems of human suffering. Israel had to respond with force, I am sorry to say, but Israel must also present a plan for addressing the real and urgent human needs of the 1.7 million people in Gaza, or else this ongoing war never end." ... Gershon Baskin

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 08:55 AM

"Hamas at present is refusing to discuss a cease-fire" ~~~~~

Of all the horrid, hideous notes of woe,
Sadder than owl-songs or the midnight blast;
    Is that portentous phrase,

          "I told you so."

    Byron - Don Juan (canto XIV, st. 50)

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 09:07 AM

Then too, Israel at present is refusing to discuss a cease-fire.

Got a poem for that, ~M~?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Ed T
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 09:11 AM

Like with Tango, It normally takes two to cease-fire.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 09:58 AM

"unanswerable objections "
Can I make something clear Mike - it really shouldn't be necessary.
My reference to mending fences has been throughout, the problems raised by Muslim fighters returning to Britain - it is why I have emphasised the docile and to some degree co-operative position of British Muslims.
The Middle East is a different matter, and is a case of seeking an international solution.
I feel that the U.S. has to drop its use of the veto on behalf of Israel, (half-way there at present anyway) and a world-wide boycott of Israel should be called for to force her to take peace talks seriously.
Whatever the feelings of the Palestinian leadership and Hamas towards Israel, they are in no position to present a serious military threat.
It can be validly claimed that the rocket attacks are a direct response to expansionism, the blockage and the history of atrocities carried out against the Palestinian people.
Israel is a sophisticated, well armed (to the point of nuclear capability) and wealthy State - Palestine is an extremely impoverished Third World one - David and Goliath was a Biblical fairy tale, nothing more.
Without world intervention, led by the U.N., both of us will live to see an encore of the Holocaust.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 10:03 AM

The confirmation comes hours after Ynetnews reported that Egypt and another Arab nation, most probably Qatar, were working on an initial draft of a cease-fire between Israel and Hamas, which was presented to both sides Saturday.

Hamas had refused to discuss the terms of the cease-fire, while Israel has expressed its willingness to meet to negotiate the details of the deal.

Egypt confirms push to end Israel-Hamas fighting

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: pdq
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 10:30 AM

The name Palestine was adopted by the Moslem residents of the Holy Land and used for their advantage. "Yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identity serves only tactical purposes. The founding of a Palestinian state is a new tool in the continuing battle against Israel... " (Zuheir Muhsin, late Military Department head of the PLO and member of its Executive Council, Dutch daily Trouw, March 1977).

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 11:53 AM

Jee, PeeDee, and here I thought the name "Palestine" dated back at least to before the Crusades...... come to think of it, its mentioned in Genesis, isn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 01:48 PM

The dispute surrounding the name Palestine has been part of Israel's denying the Palestinian's right continue to occupy the area they have done for millenia - it is immaterial one way or the other.
It's official use to identifya part of the Arab lands dates back at least to the 7th century - in anybody's book, thirteen centuries is long enough to give the right of a claim to live in the area, except the Israelis, it would appear.
Jim Carroll

"The name Palestine is given to the region spreading from eastern Mediterranean coast to the Jordan Valley to the area covering Galilee Lake in the north and southern Negev Desert. The origin of this word lies in "Plesheth". This is a name appearing frequently in the Bible and have started being known as "Philistine" in English. The world root of "Plesheth" lies in the word "palah" was is a term used generally in the sense of migratory, referring to the Palestinian's conquest of the coast of Mediterranean. These people were mostly originates of Asia Minor and Greece and gradually became a part of the Arab world".

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate what means Palestine?
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 04:25 PM

"The dispute surrounding the name Palestine has been part of Israel's denying the Palestinian's right continue to occupy the area [Wrong]they have done for millenia - it is immaterial one way or the other."
"It's official use to identifya part of the Arab lands dates back at least to the 7th century [Further back]- in anybody's book, thirteen centuries is long enough to give the right of a claim to live in the area, except the Israelis, it would appear.[Opinion not factual]" [-] = mine.
Jim Carroll
>
>
Palestine is the term given to the whole area by the Romans after quelling two Jewish attempts to remove Roman control of Judea (75CE and 135CE). They chose that name, as a form of irony, to de-Judaiize the area politically, in naming it for the main Israelite/Judean enemy, the Philistines--who had, incidentally disappeared as a polity centuries before.

The Philistines had never controlled the area as a whole. At their peak their control was mainly five cities in the southwest of what is now Israel, abutting Sinai Peninsula, one of which was Gaza. The Philistines were not Arab, nor were they Semites. They came from Mediterranean islands, such as Cypress and Sardinia.

After 135, some Jewish presence throughout Palestine. In the early 7th century CE Palestine was part of the Persian Sassinid empire. Jews were allowed local autonomy for about ten years, until the Arab Muslim conquest of Palestine. And there still continued to be a Jewish population there, no matter who controlled the area. And such there was forever into the 20th century.

Following WWI, the victors, the League of Nations, divided up the Middle East in to what eventually became Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, and Jordan (split off from the original Palestine Mandate). The remainder of the Palestine Mandate remained in limbo from 1923 on owing to the fecklessness of the British Government. From 1923 Arabs (Muslim and Christian), and Jews (native born or immigrants) considered themselves Palestinean (or at least acknowledging they lived in Mandated Palestine). Area Jews ceased considering themselves Palestinian with the declaration of the State of Israel.
>
>
Jim, Greg F. or whomever: do not ask for sources; I am not writing a term paper, nor am I quoting a source directly. You guys do not usually provide sources either for you posts. You can get sources,as I did, simply by googling or yahooing, or searching your favorite search engine. You can get documents and books from libraries as I have. You can get sources on both sides, as I have.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 05:06 PM

Thanks John, I appreciate your effort at elucidating the complex history of that part of the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 06:57 PM

I haven't read this whole thread yet, but in going through some of the earlier posts, this occurred to me:

I've heard these three friends several times on KUOW-FM, my local NPR affiliate. Very interesting—and friendly—discussions.

http://interfaithamigos.com/About_Us.html.

A chance to hear them in action HERE.

Rather than taking militant religious types of various flavors out and shooting the lot, how about lining them up and giving them all a hearty dope-slap?

Nah. Probably wouldn't do it. Okay, back to reading more of this thread. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 02:26 AM

"complex history of that part of the world"
Complex, disputed - and totally immaterial.
Claims of who called themselves what have no bearing on the fact that Arabs have occupied the area they are no being told they have no claim to for millenia.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 11:49 AM

The story of the Caliphate in Syria-Iraq has been lost in all the rehash of Palestine (several threads), but a bit of news today.
There are divisions in the Sunni groups from which ISIS is soliciting support.
Taliban in both Pakistan and Afghanistan have refused to comment on the caliphate, support is not favored by all fractions.

Naqshbandi leader Al-Douri (head of a group of Sunni loyalists to Saddam Hussain's Baath Party)) has released an audiotape praising ISIS.

Iraqi UN envoy Miadenov says Iraq needs a "firm hand" (the Parliament dissolved in disarray and the country has no overall governance) but it is not known who can lead strongly). The Sunni political group is trying to elect a parliamentary speaker in hopes of a return to power.

The Kurds announced that they now control two more large oilfields, and are fighting ISIS at their "border."

Above in part from Assyrian International News Agency.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 12:54 PM

Gee, and here I thought all these evil Muslims walked in lockstep.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 01:13 PM

"Gee, and here I thought all these evil Muslims walked in lockstep."
Sarcasm becomes you.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 01:21 PM

"Gee, and here I thought all these evil Muslims walked in lockstep."

So I guess you were wrong in thinking that as you are in so many other things.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 01:29 PM

Gee, I don't think so, Boo - since I got that impression of The Muslim Menace from you, Keith & BB.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 02:20 PM

Keep trying Greg - you may eventually figure it out:

Islam vs. Islamists

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 03:28 PM

"versus"
I have just consulted five (5) dictionaries, and as I expected each notes the use versus as a comparison or contrast. It seems bobad's use was quite correct.

Do you feel a bit like what you called him, now? Of course you don't, Musket; you'd rather call him names.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Mrrzy
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 03:39 PM

I love it when a plan comes together.

Really, ads hominem ill become anyone.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 03:40 PM

John, that's the title of the documentary I linked to. I fear Mr.Musket is losing it as has been evident for some time now. Poor chap, I feel for him.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Ed T
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 03:51 PM

""Ask yourself:  Does this appearance (of events) concern the things that are within my own control or those that are not?  If it concerns anything outside your control, train yourself not to worry about it.""

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Ed T
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 03:52 PM

Last quote, Epitetus

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Ed T
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 03:53 PM

Oops, Epictetus

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 05:59 PM

I fear Ian may have the drink taken?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 07:43 AM

Jim,

Claims of who called themselves what have no bearing on the fact that Jews have occupied the area they are now being told they have no claim to for millennia.

But then, we know that YOU do not consider Jews to be human, or to have the rights you are demanding for Palestinians.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 08:14 AM

I was heartened to see Prof Stephen Hawking has refused to attend a scientific conference in Israel out of respect for oppressed Palestinian scientists.

It takes respectable people to wipe the veneer of respectability from repugnant oppressive governments who use terror of their own people as justification for carrying on what causes the terror in the first place.

I believe Germany called the French resistance terrorists...

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 08:29 AM

"Claims of who called themselves what have no bearing on the fact that Jews have occupied the area they are now being told they have no claim to for millennia."
In practical terms , the Palestinians have had no rights to occupy the land thy have occupied for millenia, other than that which is of no use to Israel - not being "told they have no right" - a practical fact.
Israel have not proved themselves good neighbours from day one - their hand-granading occupied homes being proof positive of this.
You say I don't consider Jews human - you are the one who claim them to be terrorist implicated in the mass murder of refugees, the use of chemical weapons and the ethnic cleansing of Bedouins - as far as the rest of us are concerned, it is the Israelis who are the culprits.
Please go on blaming 'The Jews' as long as you wish - it underlines the Antisemitism of you and your little gang.
Jm Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 09:40 AM

Jews have occupied the area they are now being told they have no claim to for millennia...

Well, BB, Per Boo: Being displaced doesn't remove rights as indigenous people NO MATTER HOW LONG THEY ARE DISPLACED FOR[emphasis his]. ... Jews have been there for three thousand years...

Ergo, I guess the folks occupying the area prior to 3000 years ago have prior claom over "The Jews" & the land should be teturned to them, then.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 09:57 AM

Israel have not proved themselves good neighbours from day one - their hand-granading occupied homes being proof positive of this.


Did all Israelis do that?
Of course not, and they were also victims of atrocities.

Israel's neighbours proved themselves bad on day one by invading with five armies to sweep Israel away!

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 10:03 AM

So, GregF,

Your post indicates that the Palestinians have NO right to any land whatsoever, since they were AFTER the Jews that you claim have no right to the land.

Waiting for you to tell the Palestinians to go away…..

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 10:06 AM

"Ergo, I guess the folks occupying the area prior to 3000 years ago have prior claom over "The Jews" & the land should be teturned to them, then."

Let the Canaanites put in a claim then.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 10:11 AM

Greg F.
Maybe if you can find, today, any folks who as a polity, a folk with an historic memory, controlled what is now Israel then maybe your 'ergo' would have meaning. The fact is those folks don't exist. They assimilated into the prevailing culture, or otherwise disappeared from history. The Jew/Israelites/Judeans, conversely, have such a history: Exile,return; exile/return; exile/return; exile/return while during the exile periods there was always Jewish presence in the homeland.
As it stands your 'ergo' is 'absurdum'.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 10:38 AM

John, I was simply commenting upon the sophomoric claims of Boo, BB & Co. RE: "my claims of prior occupation are better than your claims of prior occupation" & therein lies your 'absurdum'.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 10:41 AM

Jim,

:"you are the one who claim them to be terrorist implicated in the mass murder of refugees, the use of chemical weapons and the ethnic cleansing of Bedouins -"

These have been YOUR claims, not mine- I have asked for your factual evidence and you have failed to present any.


But you have established that you would rather lie than have a reasonable discussion based on facts.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 10:48 AM

GregF,

So you will allow "claims of prior occupation" as long as they are not by Jews?

The post you are complaining about are in reply to the claims that the Palestinians have a MORE valid claim to the land by prior occupation, which YOU state is not true.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 10:49 AM

"my claims of prior occupation are better than your claims of prior occupation"

I don't think anyone has made that claim Greg but some have claimed that the land belongs to the Arabs and that the Jews were stealing it from them.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 10:54 AM

2"These have been YOUR claims, not mine"
Yes they are - throughout all your arguments to use your own arguments - prove otherwise!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 11:01 AM

Jim,

YOU have show you are a bigot and anti-Semite according to the EU.

Your last few posts prove you are a liar.


All of this is proven- Now YOU prove otherwise.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: pdq
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 11:19 AM

"1695-6
The Dutch scholar and cartographer, Adriaan Reland (Hadriani Relandi) , wrote reports about visits to the Land of Israel. He was fluent in Hebrew and Arabic. He documented visits to many locations. He writes: The names of settlements were mostly Hebrew, some Greek, and some Latin-Roman. No settlement had an original Muslim-Arab name with a historical root in its location. Most of the land was empty, desolate, and the inhabitants few in number and mostly concentrated in Jerusalem, Acco, Tzfat, Jaffa, Tiberius and Gaza. Most of the inhabitants were Jews and the rest Christians. There were few Muslims, mostly nomad Bedouins. The Arabs were predominantly Christians with a tiny minority of Muslims. In Jerusalem there were approximately 5000 people, mostly Jews and some Christians. In Nazareth there were approximately 700 people - all Christians. In Gaza there were approximately 550 people - half of them Jews and half Christians. Um-El-Phachem was a village of 10 families - all Christians. The only exception was Nablus with 120 Muslims from the Natsha family and approximately 70 Shomronites."

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 11:52 AM

It's a damned shame so much of the world knows how to read and write. To draw maps. If they hadn't figured out how to record their history and the battles they've fought (remembering that history is usually written by the winners, but lots of everyday folks keep diaries about events) they would have forgotten a lot of the small details and might not be parsing the dispute so finely today.

Some of you are harking toward the Ur status of things - back how it was in The Very Beginning. Whenever that was. It isn't going to happen. Today's Americans aren't going to move off of the continent if they find that they have no blood quantum of American Indian. Protestant former Scots aren't going to move back to Scotland from Northern Ireland. White South Africans who are still in South Africa are probably going to stay there. India Indians who live in various nations around the world are going to stay where they settled. Etc., etc.

Events in recent history - lets make that the last couple of hundred years - are plenty to keep people busy. It lets the Armenians fight with the Turks about how much land they are really entitled to, it lets the Kurds continue to try to carve out their historic homeland from Turkey as well as northern Iraq. It lets Japan fight with Russia about some inhospitable islands off the coast of Siberia and yet a logical extension of the Japanese archipelago. It lets American Indians continue to fight battles to prove they were tribes and receive compensation for lost assets (just because they protested the Dawes rolls in 1887 doesn't mean they weren't Indians). It lets ethnic regions artificially joined by colonizers fight to disassociate. The fact that European Jews left Europe under the worst of possible conditions and moved into the thousands-of-years-ago-historic-homeland of Jews in Jerusalem means they displaced the people who had been living there for a very long time since they left (if they were ever there to begin with). There are bound to be some misunderstandings.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 12:16 PM

If certain folks were to limit themselves to more recent times rather than several milennia ago they'd be forced to face some very unpleasant (to them) truths, SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 12:16 PM

So the airstrikes by the criminal Israeli forces that have killed a couple of hundred innocent men women and children in the last week are ok then because a lying scrap of parchment from a couple of thousand years ago justifies murder.

Nice.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 12:22 PM

Those are Reland's IMPRESSIONS as a tourist, PeeDee - a late 17th Century "how I spent my vacation". He didn't take a census, nor was he a resident. Interesting, but hardly conclusive.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 01:11 PM

"If certain folks were to limit themselves to more recent times rather than several milennia ago they'd be forced to face some very unpleasant (to them) truths, SRS"

Agreed.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 01:22 PM

I agree with that also.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 01:47 PM

I find it interesting that in this thread when the history of the region was first invoked it was to legitimize the Arabs' claim to it but when the same history is invoked in support of the Jews' claim to it all of a sudden it's all; "that is ancient history anyway it's only recent history that counts".

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 02:07 PM

"it's only recent history that counts"


You mean it is only the RIGHT recent history that counts.

Military occupation BY ARABS in 1948, driving out the previous Jewish Population is RIGHT, and approved of.

Military occupation BY ISRAEL in 1967, resettling Jews in the West Bank is WRONG, and disapproved.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: pdq
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 02:12 PM

In Mark Twain's book "Innocents Abroad" he travel through the Holy Land and observes that it is dry, inhospitable and nearly empty. That was 1867, many years after Adriaan Reland observed similar things, although Reland was more of an accurate historian than Twain, and entertaining curmudgeon.

The Arabs started the modern push to flood the Holy Land with their people after Balfour declared that a Jewish State would be carved out of Ottoman-occupied territory, around 1917.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 02:34 PM

PeeDee, Clemens' "Innocent's Abroad" is humor. Its not a documentary. You going to be quoting Walt Disney movies next? Or Flip Wilson?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 03:44 PM

There are several issues being tangled up in propaganda here and about the only person talking historical sense (Musket is talking some political sense) is John on the Sunset coast.

There is a time after which conquest and control confers legitimate domain - for example the Norman Conquest. That leads to two questions. First, how long is that time? Second who can reclaim after the removal of a conquering power?

The (Islamic) Ottoman Empire kicks off about 1300. It's gone (and this date is more critical) by a date that I'd put somewhere between 1919 and 1922.

I assert (and the Zionists here disagree) that none of the resulting treaties mandates etc derive power from a previous legitimate authority. They are accordingly in my view based on recent (ish) invasions and subjection. If (as many here will argue) several hundred years of English rule of Ireland did not confer historical authority, then the shorter periods since the mid-1920s do not cut the mustard.

So, the Ottomans being gone and the English etc not having legitimacy, who does have a legitimate claim to the areas that JohnotSC so usefully dubbed "the Levant".

Option 1 would be the then occupiers. That would leave most of the area vaguely Arab with a few Jewish hotspots - mostly Jerusalem (it seems - I am open to more historical detail here). If that is a sound foundation then a quick look at a map will show territorial expansion on a considerable scale by the Zionist (linguistic disconnect intended) state.

Option 2 would be the pre-Ottoman occupants. We seem to remain unclear who they were and where their descendants now are and whether they have a claim to statehood. It is however clear, whatever BB says, that the Jews (to use a perhaps not entirely apt collective description) were at the highest watermark, not very much there and had not been so for centuries and maybe more. To look at this further we'd need to look more closely at the issue of territorial abandonment (compare the Falkland Islands).

My current view (on balance) is that a Zionist claim to a historical right to so much land looks distinctly iffy.

I'm not yet persuaded that we need to look back 3,000 years or more to find a logical view on entitlement.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 05:29 PM

I can see what you mean to some extent, Richard; but you seem to me to pay insufficient regard [in fact, none at all] to GB's mandate from The League Of Nations, which was internationally regarded by treaty at end of WW1 as a recognised arbiter in such matters; which mandate, as has been pointed out above, subsumed the 1917 Balfour Declaration.

And as to

"My current view (on balance) is that a Zionist claim to a historical right to so much land looks distinctly iffy"

what IYO is the conclusion to be drawn from this. Abolition of Israel? Starting from the somewhat dreary, but surely incontrovertible axiom that the only place one can start is where one happens to be, that scarcely appears a viable option, does it now? I mean, dash·it·all, dontchaknow, there the bloody country is, and it isn't just going to go away, or vanish just·like·that into the ewigkeit...

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 06:12 PM

The League Of Nations, which was internationally regarded by treaty at end of WW1 as a recognised arbiter

Very much like the United Nations of today, which Israel consistently ignores.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 06:57 PM

"Very much like the United Nations of today, which Israel consistently ignores."

And for very good reason, see: UN, Israel & Anti-Semitism

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 09:25 PM

You bet, Boo - play that anti-Semitism card again.

Predictable. Boring. And still silly.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 11:29 PM

The League of Nations had no mandate from those whose lands in the Levant it claimed to give away.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 01:41 AM

Oh, come on Richard. We surely don't have to go again into all the biznis of the fact that the bit of land at issue here had been for centuries part of the Ottoman Empire, which had ceased to exist as a consequence of Turkey's having been an ally of the losing side in WW1, so the disposal of its parts had, by greement of the victorious side's members, come under the aegis of the League of Nations when it was formed; and as this bit had been captured in 1917 by General Allenby so was at the time under de facto British government...

All of which you know perfectly well. You really are too intelligent to imagine that retrospective Bridge-Law almost a century later is going, even emotionally, to trump the internationally recognised settlements internationally agreed in the years following 1918.
Might as well question the legality of the Nuremberg Trials at this time of day.

Meanwhile, an answer to my question, please. What is to be done about the fact that the State of Israel, little as the great and powerful Bridge may like the fact, is there, and unlikely to cease to be there? Are you at one with Hamas, Isis, Muslim Brotherhood et al, that it must be swept into the sea? Or what?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 02:40 AM

"YOU have show you are a bigot and anti-Semite according to the EU.
If I am an Antisemite, so is Chomsky, Haaretz, Jews for Peace, all the Israeli soldiers who have testified to the behaviour of the Army in Gaza, every Jew who is critical of Israeli policy in Gaza, every Jew who is now describing what is happening in Israel as 'ethnic cleansing'... and as was Einstein when he warned of the risk of fascism in the State of Israel due to the behaviour of the Israeli freedom fighters following Independence.
Last year I watched a film where six retired heads of the Israeli Secret Service all of whom were critical to the point of condemnation of Israeli behaviour in Gaza - the last one made it clear that he believed what was happening was comparable to Nazi Germany.
You are using those who died in Nazi gas ovens as a shield, much as you are claiming that Hamas is using the Palestinian people as a human shield, to justify behaviour that is recognised as an abuse of human rights and, in some cases war crimes.
You quote the E.U. definition because it suits you, yet you totally disregard their condemnation of Israeli behaviour as well as that of the U.N. and many of the nations of the world - and all of the war crimes and human rights organisations - by your logic, all of these are 'Antisemites' as well - I have never claimed anything that they haven't said or are still saying over and over again.
Not only is hiding behind the dead to excuse and support your extremism and inhumanity, a despicably and cowardly act, but in attributing Israeli war crimes and atrocities to 'The Jews' rather than the Israelis, you are a prime example of Antisemitism yourself -it is something I would expect from David Irving and the like.   
The first person I ever heard describe Israel as 'fascist' was the daughter of Holocaust survivors; her mother made a point of showing me her tattoo.
I grew up in a family who supported the dream of the State of Israel even before its establishment.
My father went to Spain because of what was happening to the Jews in Germany; he fought alongside Jews from Europe and America who were there for the same reason he was.
You claim I am an Anti-Semite, yet you have never once produced a single statement of mine attacking the Jewish people - on the contrary, by describing criticism of Israel as "Antisemitism" it is you who accuses the Jews of facilitating Sabra/Shatila, of using chemical weapons and heavy artillery on civilians: men, women, children, schools, hospitals - on establishing a doing on for a decade long blockade to starve the Palestinian people into submission - not the Israelis, but 'The Jews', according to you.
You say you have not - where in all your postings have you been anything but totally supportive of every single action of the Israeli regime?
You have yet to produce one single example of my attacking or even criticising the Jewish people, yet you describe me as an Antisemite and demand that I prove I am not - PROVE I AM - that is how natural justice works (go and read it up if you don't understand it, which you obviously don't).
The Israeli regime has betrayed the Jewish people and turned their dream into a nightmare, and you, with your strutting extremism, have supported that betrayal wholeheartedly.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 04:05 AM

Regret that I must agree with this bit at least of Jim's post --

"The Israeli regime has betrayed the Jewish people and turned their dream into a nightmare"

As I never tire of saying, present-day Israel as it has evolved is one of the greatest disappointments of my entire life (even tho it must be admitted that it remains the only outpost of anything approaching a modern civil entity in the region). I do not think I am alone in this.

What, if anything, can be done about it, I wonder?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 04:09 AM

"greement of the victorious side's members" - precisely, MtheGM.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 04:23 AM

Richard: You really have not taken on board that I was replying to your fatuous assertion that "The League of Nations had no mandate from those whose lands in the Levant it claimed to give away", by pointing out that the entity "whose lands" we are here concerned with, the Ottoman Empire, whose lands these had been for centuries, had ceased to exist; and so one of the vital functions of the newly formed, by agreement of the victors of the recent conflict, LoN, became to determine what should become of its component parts. So whose lands, precisely, are you claiming the League had no warrant, or 'mandate', to give away? It had a warrant, or mandate, from all those upon whom victory had devolved the responsibility of establishing order amongst the chaos inevitably left by so destructive a conflict as had just occurred. And who should that be but the victorious allies?

A precise answer, please.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 06:41 AM

I don't think the dead women and children were around in the days of The Ottaman Empire, let alone when scriptures claimed lands a couple of thousands years ago...

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 09:37 AM

To have legitimacy in such determinations the League of Nations needed the proper consent of and derived from the peoples of the lands in question. I almost cannot believe that you don't get it.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 10:30 AM

Which particular 'peoples', Richard? There was a mixture of nomadic Bedouin, indigenous Arabs, and Jewish settlers who had occupied much of the land by actual purchase, ie by paying in actual hard cash money for the parts of the land they colonised, this payment being made to the Turkish landowners under the Ottoman regime, who had freely agreed to sell their land. That is how the settlements in Galilee and around Lake Tiberias (under its various names) were established. The idea that the Jewish settlers just came in & settled on land without anyone's by-your-leave is one of the great myths. But of course, after the Turkish withdrawal, and the consequent mandate given to the British by the League of Nations, all sorts of new accommodations needed to be made. But why you should have any objection to those who had paid its then legitimate owners for land continuing in possession of it, I cannot see. It's you who just are not getting it.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 10:37 AM

When bulldozers forcefully remove people who were born on a piece of land whilst some bloke nods his head with an old book in his hand, you tend to feel Balfour, The Ottoman Empire and the bronze age aren't all that relevant to those who become displaced, contrary to The Human Rights Charter...

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 10:43 AM

"When bulldozers forcefully remove people who were born on a piece of land whilst some bloke nods his head with an old book in his hand"

So obviously those JEWS that were driven out of the West Bank in 1948 ( as well as the ones driven out of the OTHER Arab nation ) should get their land back, and the Palestinian Arabs who settled there after 1948 should be removed.


Or do you not think that JEWS have the rights you are giving Arab Muslims ( Since a number of Arab Christians were also driven out at that time).

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 11:05 AM

What the fuck have Jews got to do with it?

A government is using it's predominant religion as an excuse for land grab. Got nothing to do with religion, either side. Religion is an excuse, not a fact.

1967.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 11:10 AM

They were driven out by the Arab League BECAUSE they were Jews.

Do you agree THEY deserve their land back?

YES OR NO.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 11:14 AM

Don't be silly MtheGM. Anyone can buy a house, or a garden. That is a private transaction. It may, if done correctly, confer title to the land bought. It does not make the buyer a conduit for representation of the people of the region.

Those with the relevant titles might very well be a proper electorate for the communities occupying the land so bought. But only those areas.

Now compare those areas with those that Israel now claims to rule.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 11:14 AM

"YES OR NO."

Good luck with that.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 11:15 AM

What about 1967? That was when Israel took back the land that the West Bank Jews had been driven off of, and had been settled by Arabs after 1948.

I know several Palestinian families- They had homes in Ramallah, a Christian town, and were driven out in 1948 by the Arab League. So when can I expect the Palestinian Authority to vacate their property?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 11:18 AM

If it were that simple, BB, it would have been solved by now. What they "deserve," who is "entitled," and what is "fair" - all difficult questions in the layers of activity.

But those who support Israel all-out 100%, with blinders on, who can only see jewish victims struggling to find a place in the world after WWII are not seeing the abuses Israeli politicians have visited on their neighbors. Leon Uris wrote lots of novels and managed to create a romantic view of Israel that many people have since then had to get over, to see how she actually behaves herself today.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 11:26 AM

"Those with the relevant titles might very well be a proper electorate for the communities occupying the land so bought. But only those areas."


So those areas with NO resident population, such as MOST of the land of Mandate Palestine in 1921, have NO proper electorate, and can be transferred by the nation controlling it (Turkey, as the follow-on to the Ottoman Empire) to the league of Nations , which placed it under Mandate.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 11:32 AM

And those who claim that Israel is not permitted to defend itself?

I see how Hamas behaves, yet am criticized for judging them by that behavior.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 11:34 AM

It is NOT unreasonable to require that the same standards that are applied to Israel should be applied to the others in that region, and that not doing so is an indication of bigotry.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 11:47 AM

You're going to have a tough time showing that whole areas of "the Levant" had zero population (except for Jews) at all relevant times - particularly if you take account of a recent "right to return" (NOT one based on religious texts from bazillions of years ago)

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 11:58 AM

Now c'mon, SRS - all that land was given to the Israelis BY GOD. Doesn't pay to trifle with God's Will.

Do be careful or you'll end up on the BeeBoo Anti-Semite Enemies of Eretz Yisrael List.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Mrrzy
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 01:07 PM

OK, there is also confusion on jewish v. hebrew - the jews didn't exist, according to their own mythology, until the hebrews got out of bondage and decided to dedicate themselves to their god and become jews. Both hebrews and arabs are semites, a term for humans who evolved for the deserts in what is often referred to as the levant, wih big noses for the dryness etc, and they have hated each other since before the hebrews got into bondage in the first place. And nobody knows how they got there (into slavery and far away from their home), but the chances are that either the people who hated them sold them, or that they were captured in a war and taken by the people who ended up bonding them, but then why didn't they take the arabs too, and either way you have resentment between the hebrews and the arabs. Then you add in a god who has chosen the jews, and forget rational discourse between the 2... so back at the dawn of time when people are talking about the Mess o'Potamia they should not talk about jews, that is an anachronism.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 01:27 PM

I'm sure I'm already on it. Israel has a real knack for snatching defeat from the jaws of victory when it comes to peace talks.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 01:29 PM

Ya got it in one, SRS. And apparently they don't ever learn - Israel's been doing it for decades.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 06:22 PM

"Israel has a real knack for snatching defeat from the jaws of victory when it comes to peace talks."

I would posit that if you were to do a little research on the number of proposed agreements accepted by Israel and rejected by the other side since 1947 and posted the results, Greg wouldn't be so quick to honk his approval.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 06:36 PM

Bobad, I'v got your number. I'm not about to run off to do research to prove your theory that I happen to think is misguided. Do your own research. Better yet, let this one go.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 06:42 PM

It's not a theory it's a fact but since you've got my number I'd better let it go - you have the power here.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 09:00 PM

The "powers" are likely after you, Boo, because they're anti-Semites, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 09:37 PM

Sure thing Greg, you bet.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 01:39 AM

Actual recorded fact in the matter of solutions proposed to establish the "Two-State" that Abbas says he is striving for comes down on the side of Bobad in this discussion.

Originally offered by the UN in 1947 the Jews of Palestine agreed to it and the Arabs of Palestine rejected it and encouraged by their Arab neighbours they elected to go to war with the express intention of "driving the Jews of Palestine off their land and into the sea". The importance of this is that as one side rejected the proposals there are no fixed boundaries, there are no "official borders" that any party in this conflict agree to - until there are then no meaningful negotiations can take place. Another important facet of this from the perspective of the Arabs of Palestine centres around divisions in their own ranks. Back in 1947 half of the Arabs of Palestine split along tribal lines followed the self-styled Grand Mufti of Jerusalem in wanting a separate Arab Palestine, while the other half wanted the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan to annex Palestine (The latter actually gained something out of the war of 1948 in that the Jordanians invaded and occupied East Jerusalem and the West Bank areas of Palestine - in 1967 the Israelis liberated those areas and drove the Jordanian occupiers out restoring the land to Palestine).

Those who have agreed peace deals with Israel since 1949 and who have honoured those agreements have never subsequently been attacked by Israel. Those who have not and who harbour terrorists who continue to attack Israel and her people are, quite rightly attacked.

The latest "ceasefire" was agreed to by Israel and renounced by Hamas - TRUE?

Let them get on with it, they have had 67 years to sort it out and failed each and every time, fight on and be done with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 02:37 AM

This thread and the similar one are a La la land equivalent of what goes on in the real world.

Israel has far too many blinkered apologists for them to engage in real peace negotiations and the Palestinians have been kicked to fuck and let down so often, the world shouldn't really scratch it's head when they match the Israelis in sabre rattling and voting for hard nosed militants to sort this.

Just like in the real world, point out how disgraceful Israeli forces are being and you are accused of being a fan of the holocaust.

The likes of Bobad and beardedbruce have an agenda. Michael and, when he gets back, Keith like supporting any agenda if people such as Jim or I don't like it.

Sigh.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 03:15 AM

"fight on and be done with it."
Yeah - lets kill them all because politicians can'r get it right.
By that logic, we'd all be a long time dead.
These are civilians - men women and children being slaughtered - and this has been the case from the beginning; slaughtered refugees, homes razed to the ground, ordinary men, women and children going about their daily lives being bombarded and showered on by flesh-eating chemicals, daily humiliation by uniformed thugs... fuck them all because politicians cannot arrive at a situation where two groups of people cannot live together in peace.
Yeah - let the Israelis bomb them into the Stone-Age - they have the capability, and they seem to have the will.
This sort of chocolate-soldier 'humanity really does suck!
Jim Carroll

From Yesterday's Irish Times;
"I WOULD RATHER DIE AT HOME": residents prepare for threatened onslaught.
CASUALTY FIGURES RISE AS ISRAEL CLAIMS PRACTICES 'CAREFUL' AND 'HUMANE'
IN AN AREA THAT IS HOME TO BETWEEN 70,00 AND 100,00 PEOPLE, THE ISRAELI WARNING HAS CAUSED WIDESPREAD FEAR.

In a side street in Gaza's Shati camp, an Israeli warning missile has just "knocked on the roof of Alaa Hadeedi's house, filling the road with a thin mist of smoke. A few ambulances have rushed to the scene and are waiting 100m or so from the house. Behind them, a crowd of wary neighbours gather to watch.
There is a sudden shout as someone hears the sound of the second missile - a live bomb this time - and the crowd surges backwards. Alaa Hadeedi's house explodes in a billowing cloud of concrete and wood fragments.
A driver by trade, Alaa Ha-deedi - who was not at home when the missile hit - stored gasoline inside his house. It ignites in an orange fireball.
This is the reality of Israel's campaign of house destructions: a missile fired into a street in which perhaps 150 people are gathered barely 100m from the target; people anxious to help and equally anxious about their shops and houses.
According to al-Mezan, a Gaza-based Palestinian human rights group, in the past week 869 Palestinian homes have been destroyed or damaged in similar Israeli attacks that have also claimed the lives of 173 people, many of them civilians. Even as talk of a ceasefire is growing, the attacks by both sides continue.

COLLATERAL DAMAGE
The way the Israeli military tells it, "knocking on the roof is a careful and humane practice, its drone operators and pilots holding back against the risk of collateral damage. But too often it is not careful, as the civilian death toll from the last week of attacks on Gaza attests.
A mile or so from Alaa Hadeedi's house, in the same Shati neighbourhood, Dr Nasser Ta¬tar, director general of Gaza's largest medical facility, the Shi-fa hospital, is examining the ruins of his house and of his private clinic.
He says he had just returned to his family on Sunday night after working a week straight at an overwhelmed hospital short of resources. "We've had tens of deaths and hundreds of injured. I needed to be at the hospital," he says. "It was just after the time for breaking the Rama¬dan fast at 7.50pm.
"The IDF called my nephew with a 10-minute warning saying that they planned to destroy my house. Because it took him several minutes to find me, it was less than 10 minutes. I got my family out quickly and warned my neighbours to take care. Then they hit my house with a rocket and then a second."
He walks through the destruction, picking up a book left on his consulting desk now covered in dust, and examines the tangled crater at the centre of his gutted home.
"I'm at a loss to explain why they did this," says 59-year-old Tatar. "I have been a doctor for 30 years. First I was a cardiologist, then head of cardiology, then director general. I have tried to reach out through channels to find out why this happened, but I've had no reply."
It is not only individuals who are feeling the impact of Israel's campaign but now whole communities, after Israel on Sunday advised the residents of large areas of the north of Gaza - which it says is the site of rocket launches - to leave before a threatened large-scale attack. In an area that is home to be¬tween 70,000 and 100,000 people, the warning has caused widespread fear and panic.
Farmers
On the edge of Attatra, a mile or so from the Israeli border and one of the threatened areas, Hiba Abu Halima, 34, is walking with her sister. "We left yesterday before the 12 noon dead¬line," she says. "We moved to a UN school in Gaza City. But we are farmers. I wanted to come back with our brother to water the crops. So we returned at nine this morning. We are afraid because no one is here, ft was already too dangerous with the shelling and we were fright¬ened by what the Israelis said they planned to do."
There is a sharp detonation close by from a tank shell. Hiba's sister presses herself to the wall bolt upright, her face crumpling as she bursts into tears. A lift is offered back to Gaza City but the sister refuses. "My brother is back there," she says, sobbing. "I don't know where he is. I have to wait to see that he is safe."
Others from Gaza's north who fled on Sunday are now living in crowded UN schools that have been opened as shelters.
At the Alfakhoura school in Jab-aliya yesterday families were still arriving, boys carrying in their bedding balanced on their heads.
Outside a classroom turned into a dormitory, 56-year-old In-shira Salman is sitting with her family of 15. "We slept on the ground outside last night," she says. "All the rooms were full and we had no bedding. So we didn't sleep last night.
"We came here in a panic. We live in a village only 700m or so from the border, which they have been shelling. Yesterday we heard on the television and on the radio that the Israelis had said they planned to attack and we should leave. We were so worried that we left. We'll only go back when it is over."

HUMILIATED
Not everyone, however, is prepared to stay the duration of the war in the UN refuges. Back in Attatra, 42-year-old Yasser Kh-deir, an air conditioning engineer, is sitting outside his business with his son Faris (16) and other local boys.
He tells the story of Gaza's re¬cent wars, Israel's Operation Cast Lead in 2008-2009 and Operation Pillar of Defence in 2012. "My nephew was killed just up the road in 2012. During Cast Lead I spent 20 days living in a UN school. I won't do that again. It did not feel safe and I felt humiliated," he says.
"My wife and other children are in Gaza City but I wanted to come home. I am staying in my house because it is the only option. If I am killed, I would rather die at home."
(Guardian service)

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 03:33 AM

Christmas is really great at clipping isn't he, shortening:

"Let them {The Palestinians and the Israelis} get on with it, they have had 67 years to sort it out and failed each and every time, fight on and be done with it."

To: "fight on and be done with it." Coupled with the usual Christmas style "over-the-top-but-inaccurate-knee-jerk reaction":

Yeah - lets kill them all because politicians can'r get it right.

"lets" Christmas??? WTF

lets as in "let's" = Let us??? We ain't even in the fight so just who the F**K are we going to kill and why? The world and it's dog have been bustin' a gut since 1947 to get this settled and in the meantime the cancer of Islamofascism has spread. Using this idiotic conflict as an excuse militant Islam declared war on the West over 40 years ago.

Bloody right let THEM fight it out once and for all and get done with it, get it over and finished with.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 03:44 AM

Islamofascism - sums up your brain-dead partisanship.
Kill them all and be done with it.
Yeah - we know all about that Terrytoon - save it for closing time - you are a friggin' caricature.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 04:05 AM

It seems to me that the assertions from Teribus above rather support the view that the local inhabitants (apart from the Zionists) consistently opposed the Zionist land-grab.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 04:28 AM

"Kill them all and be done with it."

You advocating that solution Christmas? Because having read through what I have written I most certainly am NOT.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 05:45 AM

"'course you're not"
You've just described them all as "Islamofascists"- who the **** are you suggesting should "fight on and be done with it" - the Palestinians whose homes are presently under attack from Israeli bombardment and inevitable annihilation - if not, who? (it's just been announced that it's re-started)
There's an insightful cartoon in this morning's paper showing a heavily armed and armoured Israeli soldier with a shield bearing the word "warmonger" about to kill a fish in a barrel - the fish is spitting back - sums it up really.
There is no doubt that, should it come to it, the Palestinian people are in no position to offer any resistance and will either be slaughtered or driven to join the five million or so refugees scattered all over the world
This has never been about 'defence, as far as Israel is concerned - go and look at the casualty figures down the years and see how they balance out - and see how many of them are non-combatants - particularly children.
For all the bluster about defence, so far, the casualties of these rocket attacks has been precisely none - that's what this overkill is defending the people of Israel from.
It's the serial school bully complaining that one of his victims "kicked me sir".
When it comes down to it, it's about two groups of people, each with equal rights to a territory, being led by messianic zealots.
Richard is right - when it comes to worms-eye level, people are people and are happy and willing to get along with each other, whatever their differences in culture and religion.
Encouraging them to slug it out would suit the Israeli regime down to the ground - survival of the richest, strongest and most aggressive.
All the bullshitting bar-room-bluster from a wannabe warrior doesn't alter that one iota.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 06:15 AM

Be fair, Jim. I know you feel very strongly on this isuue, but please do not let your feelings carry you away.

I can't see how you can asset that T's statement that

"the cancer of Islamofascism has spread. Using this idiotic conflict as an excuse militant Islam declared war on the West over 40 years ago"

equates to "You've just described them all as "Islamofascists"'. What "all"? He was saying was that those Islamists, whom he has specifically described as the "militant" part of Islam [which they clearly are, or else they wouldn't be doing whatever it is they are doing] who commit such enormities as 9/11, 7/7/ &c, have fascist temdencies which they have been displaying in various attacks for 40 years. Again, who are the 'all' whom you accuse him of applying the name to. It's clear that it only the destructive militants that he labels thus.

You are quick enough yourself to fling words like "fascist" and "Nazi" and such about in application to those of whose views and activities you disapprove. It has, as you know, been a big bone of contention between us for some time. Why should you deny him the right to apply a similar name where he deems it appropriate?

Sauce for the goose and all that...

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 07:21 AM

Jim is "special".


The rules that have to apply to the rest of us do not apply to him.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 07:25 AM

"You are quick enough yourself to fling words like "fascist" and "Nazi"
So are Jews and non-Jews alike - you have never responded to any of those Mike - how about doing so now?
If he is suggesting that battle should commence - who is he referring to if not the Arab people as a whole
That the Palestinians should have expressed an opposition to Israel from the start cuts both ways, from the time Israeli "freedom fighters" went through the villages hurling grenades into occupied houses in order to create a "Jewish State" - that, for me has too much of the "Aryan people" ring to it as far as I am concerned.
If one side is wrong, both are.
At the present time we are talking about whether the Israelis should be allowed to bomb the Palestinian people as a whole into submission in order to return to the good old days of ghettoisation, blockade, Berlin walls and gradual but inevitable total displacement
Sure, Hamas isn't doing any favours to to Palestinians, in fact all it seems to be achieving is to give Israel a chance for stepping up its militarism, but it really doesn't need that anyway.
Don't let my feelings carry me away - sorry - none of us have any answers here, and certainly, we have no say over what is happening - al we are left with are our right to express what we feel.
The last place I would look for advice is a wannaba goose-stepper who probably couldn't pass the intelligence entry test if he tried (does the army have one of those?)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 08:15 AM

OK Jim -- you know I agree substantially, esp such as 'If one side is wrong, both are.' But you know my passion for accuracy; and I still think you were mistaken in accusing him of calling all of them by that particular designation when it was perfectly clear that he had only meant a particular, specific, part of the demographic. I still don't know quite what you meant by that "all" whom you accused him of denouncing but it's probably not worth your while explicating. Meanwhile I am not engaging further in this particular exchange; it was only that particular [what seemed to me] unwarranted accusation I was engaging with.

Best

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 11:21 AM

Sorry Mike - I asked who he was referring to when he said, "let them get on with it" - the only reply I received was a typo correction.
This is part of a long-running diatribe from this unpleasant individual - apart from attacks on long-dead parents, he even showed us all his gun one time to prove his manhood - a real piece of work.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: pdq
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 11:43 AM

Hamas is not a political organization in the normal sense of the term.

They were not formed to provide competent leadership over their people.

They were formed to wage jihad on Israel and kill Jews.


"According to Abraham Foxman of the Anti-Defamation League, 'The Hamas credo is not just anti-Israel, but profoundly anti-Semitic with racism at its core. The Hamas Charter reads like a modern-day Mein Kampf.' According to the charter, Jewish people 'have only negative traits and are presented as planning to take over the world.' The charter claims that the Jews deserve God's/Allah's enmity and wrath because they received the Scriptures but violated its sacred texts, disbelieved the signs of Allah, and slew their own prophets. 'The Day of Judgement will not come until Muslims fight the Jews, when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say, 'O Muslims, O Abdullah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him."

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 11:54 AM

So.. This objective observer called Abraham.......

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 12:09 PM

Musket,

We have quoted the Hamas Charter from the Hamas website. If you do not care to accept something that THEY state, I see no reason to even bother discussing anything with you- You obviously are not open to facts.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 12:11 PM

"So.. This objective observer called Abraham......."
Is there a point to your unfinished post? Or are you really just trying to get us to finish your thought. Do you have anything to factually refute what was posted? Guess not, or you would have.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 12:35 PM

Wanted Poster.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Mrrzy
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 01:37 PM

The Abraham post said it all. Not partial (says someone not partial to the petty bickering that so amused Data, said Tom wholesomely).

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 04:48 AM

So.. This objective observer with a Jewish sounding name...

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 09:09 AM

So, Musket,

We will now discount ALL statements and reports from those with either Jewish OR Arab sounding names, regardless of the factual basis that they present.


That IS what you are saying, isn't it? Or is it JUST statements by those with Jewish sounding names that should be ignored?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 09:20 AM

That IS what you are saying, isn't it?

Idiot.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 09:21 AM

Keep going beardbruce. All the sympathisers of Israeli terrorism on this and the other thread have failed to see the irony.

Which proves my point...

By the way, nice of the Israelis to give notice. A trick they learned from The IRA.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Ed T
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 09:28 AM

Some folks say that views on the Israel-Hamas issue has nothing to do with anyone having anti-jewish vuews.
Then there us a suggestion that news from someone with a Jewish sounding name is suspect as being biased, or grounds alone for it not being reliable?

Puzzling?

Should, or can, we have it both ways?

Like with many folks worldwide, because of name changes, history, sharing of names worldwide etc., it would be an inexact exercise to guess at ones ethnic or religious background, or political beliefs, from their names alone.


Resources 

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 09:45 AM

Not according to Musket, who even GregF calls an idiot.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 09:47 AM

By the way, nice of the Israelis to give notice. A trick they learned from The IRA.

You would prefer them no to??
You are very ignorant of these issues Musket.
The requirement to give adequate warning before an attack that might endanger civilians is written into international law.
Israel seeks to comply.
Hamas flouts it.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Ed T
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 09:53 AM

Please do not get me wrong, from my last post. I am not taking sides on tgis issue, not attempting to target anyone here.So, no need to either blast me, nor harbour resentment to be used in a future thread response on another unrelated topic.

My perspective on dumb statements:

We all say dumb things on occasion, (I am in this group)and more likely so in the heat of an emotional discussion. When we do so, it "looks better on us" when we admit it was so and everyone can then move on to more fruitful discussion. On the other perspective, there comes a time to move on from identifying and dwelling a dumb statement. Others likely noticed it-dwelling on it just reflects on you as being argumentative, not reinforcing the dumb statement itself.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 10:00 AM

Giving 100,000 non-combatant civilians notice of a lethal bombardment of their homes, irrespective of age, health, mobility or alternative shelter is is murder, plain and simple.
It has already been suggested as a massive war crime, should it take place - the fact that such an act is even being considered is an indication of the depravity of such an act, whether it takes place or not.
A letter form the Palestinian Ambassador, to the Irish Times in response to one by the Israeli Ambassador defending such an act points out that while Israel has places of shelter for its people, Gaza has none.
So far, the Palestinian death toll is 200 plus, 20% of these children, while Israeli casualties remain precisely none.
Murder, plain and simple
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 10:06 AM

"So far, the Palestinian death toll is 200 plus, 20% of these children, while Israeli casualties remain precisely none."

A false statement, but I am sure that ONE dead Jew is not enough to make Jim happy.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 10:26 AM

"So far, the Palestinian death toll is 200 plus, 20% of these children, while Israeli casualties remain precisely none."

Jesus, Jim, since you're so hung up on death statistics, let's get it right! From various news sources, one being CNN, I kept hearing, yesterday, that one Israeli had been killed. Does that make you feel better, sir?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 11:05 AM

{Sigh} As we are debating with people of limited intelligence, it is sometimes reasonable to point out what you put rather than expect understanding...

If you don't they hilariously waffle on as if you said it at face value. The others think you might have said something or have a view. That's the problem with internet chat, you can't see me waving wanker signs at you whilst taking the piss.

Beardedbruce, PooBad, Keith, Michael etc love to judge people as being Hamas if they are Palestinian. I take the piss out of this by pointing out that a bloke called Abraham can't be objective. Ask your carer to look up satire in her dictionary.

Right.

Keith talks of legal bombing of civilians. I know he has no idea of military matters, but even a wannabe soldier might cringe at that..

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 11:22 AM

BeardedBruce said A false statement, but I am sure that ONE dead Jew is not enough to make Jim happy.

BB, that is sick, and you need help.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 11:24 AM

Having read JIM"S posts, HE is the one who is sick.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 11:25 AM

"that one Israeli had been killed"
Whoops - missed that one - that changes things completely!!
No - it doesn't make me feel better - as far as I am concerned, this is about dead people, not "statistics" (interesting choice of word) and I don't give a shit what religion colour or taste in ties is, they are all human beings - which is why I believe a conference table where a conclusion which will accommodate every single individual concerned is the only answer.
"ONE dead Jew is not enough to make Jim happy"
I'm sure the Palestinian dead has fallen far short of your obvious wishes Brucie, but the Israelis are doing their best - don't lose hope just yet.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 11:46 AM

-- "statistics" (interesting choice of word) --

Well you're the one who keeps bringing up the numbers, Jim, I just used the appropriate term for that type of number. I expect you, and those who agree with you, will keep bring up statistics as long as these threads last.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 11:46 AM

"every single individual concerned is the only answer."
Whoops - far too idealistic and unobtainable - should have written,
"will tace into consideration the views and interests of all sides in this dispute.
Can't please all of the people all of the time
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 11:47 AM


Keith talks of legal bombing of civilians. I know he has no idea of military matters, but even a wannabe soldier might cringe at that..

(Sigh)
You expose your ignorance yet again.


Under the Geneva Conventions, as well as customary international law, if
a military objective, such as a missile launcher or weapons stockpile, is
placed in the heart of a civilian area, it does not cease being a lawful
military objective. The primary responsibility for civilian causalities arising
from the 'shielding' lies with the party that deliberately placed civilians at
risk.



International law also requires that any military operation be 'proportionate'
in the sense that expected collateral damage to civilians and civilian
objects must not be excessive in relation to the military advantage
anticipated. This is a complex and difficult calculation and international law
relies on the best determination of the commander in the field in the heat
of the conflict to weigh all relevant considerations, including the security of
his own forces.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 12:31 PM

Bombing where you know there are civilians is a war crime.

It was when Bomber Harris and Churchill did it too, but victors dictate victory.

Aiming at schools, hospitals, residential areas and beaches full of playing children. As much as Geneva isn't my favourite city, I don't think even they would wish to be associated with Israel's response to the response to their oppression of neighbours.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 12:37 PM

"Bombing where you know there are civilians is a war crime.
"

YOU mean EXCEPT when the civilians are Israelis.

At least that is what you seem to be saying, supporting the Hamas War Crimes and declaring they the legal response by the Israelis is a war crime because the Gaza Government, under Hamas, discourages any attempt to move civilians out of attack zones, and specifically put legitimate military targets so as to maximize the Palestinian civilian casualties.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 12:40 PM

The United Nations Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA) has demanded "full respect for the sanctity of its premises" after discovering 20 rockets hidden in a vacant school in the Gaza Strip.

The organisation said it "strongly condemned" those responsible for placing weapons inside the building, in what it described as a "flagrant violation of the inviolability of its premises under international law".

The incident is the first of its kind in Gaza, the group added, and comes as a five-hour humanitarian ceasefire expired. The end was marked by renewed cross-border fighting, as officials dismissed reports of a new truce agreement.

The UNRWA said: "This incident endangered civilians including staff and put at risk UNRWA's vital mission to assist and protect Palestine refugees in Gaza.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 12:48 PM

Bombing where you know there are civilians is a war crime.

Wrong Musket.
Civilians must not be targeted, but with certain provisos (warnings etc.), military targets may be attacked even if civilian casualties are likely.
http://www.icrc.org/eng/resources/documents/misc/57jpzn.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 01:22 PM

Oh, good, FA - then lets bomb the living crap out of those civilians.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 01:30 PM

In areas where civilians are concentrated, clearly-separated military objectives should n ot be treated as a single military objective. Unless circumstances do not permit it, each party to the conflict shall give an effective advance warning prior to an attack which may affect the civilian population.

In some cases, civilians and prisoners are used as human shields to protect military objectives from attack. In others, the red cross or the red crescent emblem is used to mislead the enemy and conduct military actions. Simulation of protected status by using the red cross, the red crescent, UN or other protective emblems are considered as acts of perfidy, amounting to a grave breach of humanitarian law.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 05:39 PM

That sounds contorted enough to be original Bruce bullshit! Now lets see if he can render that in comprehensible English.

Unless its the usual un-attributed C&P.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 07:03 PM

BB is quoting from the International Committee of the Red Cross Greg.
The English is completely comprehensible to anyone with a basic education and a modicum of intelligence.
Perhaps that is your problem Greg.

The link was just given in my post.
Do you need help in using it Greg dear?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST,Mrr
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 08:02 PM

If you are a civilian and you know they are bombing you why are you at the beach?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 09:30 PM

BB, that is sick, and you need help.

Well, SRS, that's hardly his worst effort, and he could be helped right off the forum.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 12:47 AM

"I believe a conference table where a conclusion which will accommodate every single individual concerned is the only answer.
.,,.
So you never tire of saying, Jim.

But, once again, don't tell us; don't tell the Israelis. Tell Hamas ~~~
'...the reply from the Hamas bomb-making chief Mohammed Deif was instant. On the website of the Izz-al Din Qassam Brigades he declared: "I thank Allah the exalted for his support in the Jihad of our people. I ask for your assistance to our jihad… We shall not rest until our entire holy land is liberated … To the Zionists we promise that tomorrow all of Palestine will become hell for you…"...
'Hamas rejects all possible compromise with Israel, and all possibility of a negotiated peace in the following terms: "There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavours."
                                    Daily Telegraph 16 Jul 14'

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 12:52 AM

The URL for the Telegraph article I quote above -- (please, Jim, in justice, do read it, even if the idea of reading from such a source is anathema to you. It really is quite a well-informed piece, at least worth any fair-minded person's consideration)

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/alanjohnson/100280272/its-time-to-bust-the-israeli-blockade-led-to-hamas-rockets-myth/

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 01:27 AM

"I don't give a shit what religion colour or taste in ties is, they are all human beings - which is why I believe a conference table where a conclusion which will accommodate every single individual concerned is the only answer." - Christmas

Terrific Christmas - care to tell us how you are going to get Hamas to that table? Considering that:

1: The political wing of Hamas has got absolutely no control over its armed militants or any allied group working in their midst.

2: That the only "accommodation" that will satisfy Hamas is the complete and utter destruction of the State of Israel

I would dearly love to hear how you, Christmas, would "negotiate" as part of the Israeli delegation once sat round that table in the full knowledge that those sitting opposite you have not once complied with anything they have previously solemnly sworn to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 02:40 AM

"But, once again, don't tell us; don't tell the Israelis. Tell Hamas ~"
No Mike - you tell us your alternatives - after all, your Christian humanist mate has told us how it is perfectly legal to carpet bomb the Palestinians into the Stone age.
As you say, it's not my job to come up with solutions, just to express my opinions on what should happen and what is happening in my name.
Despite Israel's serial aggressive behaviour at the conference table, you and braindead and Terry-the-Wannabe-Trooper take sides and point fingers, blaming 'the enemy', you at least have paid lip-service to Israel's betrayal of the Jewish people, yet continue to back their genocidal behaviour by blaming only 'the other side'
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 03:19 AM

Beardedbruce. If you lie once more, saying I support the terrorist Hamas wing, I will ask searching questions about you and child porn.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 03:26 AM

Isn't it nice here? Discussing the circumstances under which some people support murdering innocent civilians, including children.

What were the children doing on the beach? THEY WERE FUCKING PLAYING! Just like any children would. After all, there are no military installations on the beach so only terrorists would choose to bomb it.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 03:48 AM

"If you lie once more...."
Give him a break Muskie - the only defence these people have for Israeli terrorism is lying, and wouldn't life be dull and boring without them?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 04:00 AM

Again, Jim -- I haven't got any 'alternatives'; but I fail to see why you think that simple fact adds any validity to your vain repetitions of the impossible.

I will just add that the day Hamas comes to the conference table I promise I will give you a nice red apple.

Till then, by all means go on saying at regular intervals that "negotiation is the only solution - hey ho for the conference table" like some sort of demented parrot if that's what turns you on. Does me no harm -- quite amusing and entertaining, in fact. But what possible satisfaction you are getting from this endless pointless rehearsal of something that's as likely to happen as "Next July we collide with Mars"*, I really cannot conceive.

~M~

*From 'Did You Ever', Cole Porter, from film High Society, 1956. Sung by Crosby & Sinatra -- one of their few collaborations.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 04:58 AM

"vain repetitions of the impossible"
If peace is impossible, discussing the subject is a waste of time - we may as well sit on our hands and send flowers when the time comes- wonder if we can book tickets for the show!
By ponting the finger, as you have done, "But, once again, don't tell us; don't tell the Israelis. Tell Hamas" you have obviously chosen your side by absolving Israel in any of this - your prerogative.
Israel has made it perfectly clear that it is not interested in any peace deal that doesn't include them continuing to occupy and expand, and continue to allow the to treat non-Jews in the territory as lesser mortals.
It deliberately sabotaged the last round of talks to the extent that eve n their strongest supporters, the U.S., drew back.
Peace talks as before are obviously a waste of time; without American blanket support and with full U.N. participation, things could be different - otherwise what - another Syria, where the world stands by and does nothing about the butchery until it has escalated into something else?
At the moment, we are getting nothing from Israel but belligerence and vengeance, from Gaza, fatalistic despair and 'spitting fish'
We both know how far things can go when the world stands by and does nothing
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 05:08 AM

Israel has made it perfectly clear that it is not interested in any peace deal that doesn't include them continuing to occupy and expand, and continue to allow the to treat non-Jews in the territory as lesser mortals.

That is completely untrue.
All Israel seeks is an end to the bombardment of its people from Gaza.
Gaza could be prosperous and stable if it would only call off its war.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 05:13 AM

Tell all sides then, including the rather transparent Israeli flouting of UN requirements to back off. Neither side trust the other. Whilst one side has it's western apologists, they never will.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 05:32 AM

UN requirements to back off.
Huh?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 06:52 AM

"That is completely untrue."
Sure it is - "Up Israel" and "Onward Christian Soldiers" - same mixture as before
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 06:57 AM

'"By ponting the finger, as you have done, "But, once again, don't tell us; don't tell the Israelis. Tell Hamas" you have obviously chosen your side by absolving Israel in any of this - your prerogative.'
.,.
Genuinely can't see how anyone can interpret that as my having 'chosen my side' or 'absolved' anyone of anything. I was referring, not to the problem as a whole, as to which I have nothing to contribute at present, but simply to the fact that the solution, that Jim kept asserting was the only one, was impossible of achievement. Instead of replying to this point, he replies in typical Carrolliian fashion with unsustained [and unsustainable becoz not the case] accusations of bad faith on my part.

I don't know how many times I have to say that Mr Carroll seems sometimes to be a permanent brick wall against which I am getting fed up with knocking my head. Think I'll give up and find a new, less stressful and more worthwhile, hobby: pulling my beard out hair by hair, perhaps...

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Ed T
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 06:59 AM

Anyone see any reports as to why Hamas dix not abide by what was reported as a temporary cease fire-to allow the entry of humaritian supplies, and continued to launch rockets? That puzzles me?

I ask, as that was one reported reason for the current ground operation.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 07:04 AM

Gaza Beach Shelling Eyewitnesses
Let's review eyewitness accounts of yesterday's sheeling of the beach when four Arab youngsters were killed:

NYTimes photographer:

    I had returned to my small seaside hotel around 4 p.m. to file photos to New York when I heard a loud explosion. My driver and I rushed to the window to see what had happened. A small shack atop a sea wall at the fishing port had been struck by an Israeli bomb or missile and was burning. ...
    ...A small metal shack with no electricity or running water on a jetty in the blazing seaside sun does not seem like the kind of place frequented by Hamas militants, the Israel Defense Forces' intended targets.

The IDF seems to have targeted a specific structure, not an open area or the boys.

From a Guardian correspondent:

    Beaumont, who has been in Gaza for the last nine days, said that during the time he has been at the hotel, that area of the harbor has been hit by the IDF "at least three times." Following the explosion, "on the retaining wall there were puffs of smoke and we saw four people running along it.


The area, having been attacked "at least three times" previously, would seem to indicate a terrorist target. You don't waste ordnance on children.

Was Hamas launching rockets from there?

Was it a naval base?

From Washington Post journalist:

    It is not unusual for militants to launch rockets from sites near my hotel. Israeli missiles and shells have also landed pretty close to al-Deira, an old red stucco inn with a large terrace overlooking the Mediterranean Sea. Just a few hundred yards down the beach is the fishing harbor.


UPDATE of an acknowledgement from The Guardian:

>
> A witness who identified himself only as Abu Ahmed said the boys had been scavenging for scrap metal when the first shell hit a nearby shipping container used in the past by Hamas security forces. He said the boys fled but a second projectile "hit all of them".


There you have it --- one, two, three.

And because of Hamas terror, four young kids lose their lives.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 07:06 AM

No, because of an Israeli finger on a US supplied button.

You really are sick, aren't you?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 07:09 AM

Hamas Interior Ministry To Social Media Activists: Always Call The Dead 'Innocent Civilians'; Don't Post Photos Of Rockets Being Fired From Civilian Population Centers

"Anyone killed or martyred is to be called a civilian from Gaza or Palestine, before we talk about his status in jihad or his military rank. Don't forget to always add 'innocent civilian' or 'innocent citizen' in your description of those killed in Israeli attacks on Gaza."

"Avoid publishing pictures of rockets fired into Israel from [Gaza] city centers."

Hamas interior ministry social media guidelines

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 07:26 AM

"Anyone see any reports as to why Hamas dix not abide by what was reported as a temporary cease fire-to allow the entry of humaritian supplies, and continued to launch rockets? That puzzles me?"

They want the Israeli ground invasion. It will give them the opportunity to kill or capture Israeli soldiers and thus be able to make some claim of success something which they haven't been able to do up to now.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 07:36 AM

"I don't know how many times I have to say that Mr Carroll"
Total annihilation it must be then - will you tell the apalestinians or shall I?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Ed T
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 08:12 AM

Egypt on its cease fire attempts 

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Ed T
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 08:29 AM

The Gaza ISIS connection,nite that it is an opinion piece not news:

Another longer term perspective-,Opinion  


From an Israeli news group (cant vouch for its accuracy).

ISIS on Gaza 

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Ed T
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 09:23 AM

Rather than picking a side, this person seems to be looking for a route to a potential solution to benefit all- (well, maybe not ISIS). In addition, Turkey seems to have links to the EU, USA and Russia, and has historic connections to many Arab countries.


GAZA from one Turkish perspective 

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: pdq
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 09:43 AM

"The Islamic State, or ISIS, has responded to critics who have questioned why its leader Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi is not actively supporting Hamas in fighting Israel.

After capturing vast swathes of Iraq and Syria, ISIS declared the regions under its control as a "Caliphate", or Islamic state, and appointed Baghdadi as "leader of the Muslims". While many jihadists celebrated the announcement, others - including Al Qaeda, which ISIS broke off from last year - have criticized the move for a variety of reasons.

Since the recent escalation between Israel and Islamist terrorists in Gaza, some of those critics have questioned why a self-declared "Caliphate" is not rushing to the aid of Muslims in the Hamas-controlled territory.

In a statement a spokesperson for the group, Nidal Nuseiri reaffirmed that conquering "Bayt el-Maqdis" (Jerusalem) and destroying the State of Israel is central to the group's "jihad", or holy war.

However, he pointed out that ISIS has been taking a systematic approach in its campaign, and outlined six specific stages it said needed to be fulfilled before taking on Israel.

Some of those "stages" - building a firm base for an Islamic state in Iraq, and using it as a springboard to wage war in Syria and Lebanon - have already been achieved. But he said a number of other criteria still needed to be fulfilled before challenging Israel directly.

Among them, Nuseiri said that the US - seen as Israel's greatest ally - needed to be weakened politically and economically via attacks on the American mainland, as well as US interests in Muslim countries. Additionally, the existing "Islamic State" needed to expand its borders to cover all of "Greater Syria" (which would include Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and possibly Gaza); such a state, he said, would then be in a position for a direct confrontation with Israel."

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 12:38 PM

One word, PeeDee: Blowback.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Mrrzy
Date: 19 Jul 14 - 01:08 AM

*sigh* at least they haven't shot down a civilian plane full of AIDS researchers... yet...

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 19 Jul 14 - 03:27 AM

I notice Obama has told Netanyahu to back off and stop indiscriminately killing innocent people. He said the right to defend has a fine line and Israel jumped over it without a pause.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jul 14 - 04:06 AM

"*sigh* at least they haven't shot down a civilian plane full of AIDS researchers... yet..."
Haven't read the news this morning, but unless there are new developments, the responsibility for that one was largely democratic, post-communist Russia - according to Obama, that is.
They did facilitate the massacre of 3,500 unarmed refugees - don't suppose that counts as an atrocity - doesn't seem to to some people
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 07:48 AM

ISIS, which recently rebranded as the Islamic State, has solidified its control over Iraq's second-largest city by imposing Sharia law and expelling Christians who won't convert to Islam. The end of last month marked the first time a mass wasn't held in the city in more than 1600 years.

Then, matters got worse. From the Daily Beast:

Friday at noon was the deadline for Christian families to meet ISIS's demands: Convert to Islam, pay an anachronistic Islamic tax for non-Muslims known as jizya, leave Mosul, or be killed. But the day before the final exodus, Christians were informed jizya was no longer an option. The order came to convert, leave, or die.
On the way out of town last week, the final 1500 families of Mosul's Christian population were reportedly robbed at ISIS checkpoints. And following Friday's deadline, ISIS reportedly set fire to a 1800-year-old church.

Last month, ISIS shocked much of the world by swiftly capturing Mosul in an offensive that allowed the group to take control of major parts of northern and western Iraq. As Reuters reported, the group has managed to shore up its control over communities with a combination of force and fear. After meeting armed resistance in the town of al-Alam for nearly two weeks, here's what the group did:

They kidnapped 30 local families and rang up the town's most influential citizens with a simple message about the hostages: "You know their destiny if you don't let us take over the town."
Weeks later, according to the report, only a few gunman patrol the town at night "so comfortable is the Islamic State in its control through fear." Since then, with Baghdad as the prize in mind, the group has grown in size from 3,000 by earlier estimates to 20,000 as last month's offensive bolstered their standing."

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 07:59 AM

Daily Beast? Is that you or a newspaper?

If I want to read a newspaper, I tend to take on board the political position of the editor first. Just cutting and pasting tells us nothing of what they want people to believe.

Not everybody is as gullible or as single issue as you. There are enough bad things going on without over dramatisation by someone with an agenda.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 08:06 AM

Musket,


YOU state:
"
If I want to read a newspaper, I tend to take on board the political position of the editor first. Just cutting and pasting tells us nothing of what they want people to believe.

Not everybody is as gullible or as single issue as you. There are enough bad things going on without over dramatisation by someone with an agenda."


My post is from:
http://www.thewire.com/global/2014/07/isis-torches-1800-year-old-mosul-church-after-expelling-christians/374834/


I expect that you will now provide the SOURCE for any factual ( if any) statements you make here, so that the rest of us can judge how gullible and over dramatized YOU are being.

Or are you demanding a special set of rules that YOU do not have to follow?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 08:33 AM

You should know the drill by now Bruce....when you can't challenge the facts attack the source....or the messenger.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 09:10 AM

Musket, here is the same story in the Independent today.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/isis-sets-fire-to-1800yearold-church-as-christians-families-flee-violence-9622541.html

And last Sunday.
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/editorials/conversion-of-iraq-as-isis-drives-christians-out-of-their-homes-the-groups-genocidal-intentions-take-on-horrible-clarity-9617651.html?origin=internalSearch

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 09:15 AM

You should know the drill by now Boo & BB....when you can't challenge the facts

Scream Anti-Semite!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 09:17 AM

No need to scream it - it's coming through loud and clear enough.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 01:16 PM

And for those out there thinking Israel is so bad… And this is only through June 30.


"The violence in Iraq has killed more than 5,500 civilians over the first six months of the year, according to a report by the United Nations that documents the massive humanitarian toll of the Sunni militant offensive.

The Islamic State (Isis) and other Sunni insurgents seized control of the city of Falluja, as well as part of nearby Ramadi in Anbar province in early January. The militants then launched an offensive in June that has brought a huge swath of northern and western Iraq under their control.

In its report, the UN mission to Iraq says at least 5,576 civilians were killed and another 11,665 wounded from 1 January until the end of June. Another 1.2 million have been driven from their homes by the violence, it adds.

The pace of civilian deaths over the first six months marked a sharp increase over the previous year. In all of 2013, the UN reported just over 7,800 civilians killed, which was the highest annual death toll in years.

The fighting "has inflicted untold hardship and suffering on the civilian population with large-scale killings, injuries, and destruction and damage of livelihoods and property", the UN report says."

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 01:41 PM

"The violence in Iraq has killed more than 5,500 civilians over the first six months of the year, according to a report by the United Nations that documents the massive humanitarian toll of the Sunni militant offensive."
Difference in numbers only - sliding scale again
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 01:50 PM

I don't quote any fucking sources, prick.

I am capable of debate, hence I am typing in a debate tread.

I am sure there are websites for cutting and pasting things you don't understand and passing them off as your considered views, but Mudcat doesn't offer that.

Some of us can form our own views and challenge others. That is why Keith can confidently challenge people to defy his views, because he cuts and pastes them from his far right favourite sources. Just like you. You can't educate pork and it isn't worth arguing with those who cannot defend their posts because first, they have to understand them, having posted the words of others.

Beleive it or not, having your views articulated for you by others I leave to God botherers and those who have their best interests advocated for them due to their lack of mental capacity.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 01:53 PM

"
I don't quote any fucking sources, prick.
"


So your opinions are NOT based on any factual basis, and should rightly be ignored as the opinion of an ignorant asshole.



YOU said it.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 03:17 PM

"The violence in Iraq has killed more than 5,500 civilians over the first six months of the year"
Yup - agree with you totally one is as bad as the other- maybe, there's a chance for Israel to draw even by facilitating another Sabra/Shatila - they're certainly working all out in Gaza at present - 647 and counting
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 03:25 PM

No, Jimmy boy

That is the TOTAL count- Not all are civilians in Gaza.

The UN report is ONLY on civilians, not armed militia and other forces.


So a factor of 10 is just a sliding scale-

THAN THE ISRAELI CIVILIAN DEATHS BY HAMAS are just as significant as the Gazan ones- EVEN ONE IS YOO MANY.

SO WHAT IS HAMAS doing to REDUCE Israeli civilian deaths? Launhing more rockets at those civilians?


I am waiting on ANY suggestion of what else Israel could do to reduce Palestinian civilian casualties when attacking Hamas military installation.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 03:51 PM

"those who have their best interests advocated for them due to their lack of mental capacity"

Ah, yes; the "mental capacity" of the perpetrator of that post is well exemplified by its opening ---

"I don't quote any fucking sources, prick."

What was it that old song I recall from years back used to say? -- something like ♫♫"Isn't he a sweetie! Isn't he a lamb!"♫♫

LoL in ♠♠♠♠❢❢❢❢ Dontcha just luv him❣❣❣

X❤♥~MtheGM~♥❤X

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 05:02 PM

Bearded in reference to dingleberries?

Anything to justify killing of Palestinians and Israeli expansion.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 05:42 PM

What Israeli expansion?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST,Mrr
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 08:24 PM

What dingleberries?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 02:50 AM

So cutting and pasting is expressing your view? Perhaps if braidedbeardedbruce reads up on the word debate, he might learn what expressing a view is. Based on applying reason to what you read hear or see.

No wonder you have no clue what the Israeli militants are getting up to. Or he does and it excites him. Don't know which is worse, noisy ignorance or noisy repugnance.

Hi Michael! As you seem to read my posts in detail, perhaps you can help me and ask your newsagent to pass this rucksack on to his nephew?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 03:35 AM

"That is the TOTAL count- Not all are civilians in Gaza."
The vast majority are civilians and a large percentage of them are children
It really doesn't matter anyway, the Israelis are not discriminating who they kill, maim and drive from their homes - theirs is a scorched earth policy aimed at the general population - nothing whatever to do with defence an never has been.

"What Israeli expansion?"
Haaretz
By Akiva Eldar | Mar. 30, 2012 | 3:37 AM |   48
"Israel Defense Ministry plan earmarks 10 percent of West Bank for settlement expansion
Newly released maps indicate Civil Administration secretly setting aside additional land for Jewish settlements, presumably with the intention of expanding them.
For years Israel's Civil Administration has been covertly locating and mapping available land in the West Bank and naming the parcels after existing Jewish settlements, presumably with an eye toward expanding these communities.
The Civil Administration, part of the Defense Ministry, released its maps only in response to a request from anti-settlement activist Dror Etkes under the Freedom of Information Law.
In some places the boundaries of the parcels outlined in the maps coincide with the route of the West Bank separation barrier.
The state has argued before the Supreme Court and the International Court of Justice in The Hague that the route of the separation barrier was based on Israel's security needs. But Civil Administration's maps and figures, disclosed here for the first time, suggest the barrier route was planned in accordance with the available land in the West Bank, intended to increase the area and population of the settlements.
A total of 569 parcels of land were marked out, encompassing around 620,000 dunams ‏(around 155,000 acres‏) − about 10 percent of the total area of the West Bank. Since the late 1990s, 23 of the unauthorized outposts were built on land included in the map. The Civil Administration is endeavoring to legalize some of these outposts, including Shvut Rahel, Rehelim and Hayovel.
Etkes believes this indicates the settlers who built the outposts had access to the administration's research on available land − more proof of the government's deep involvement in the systematic violation of the law in order to expand settlements, he says.
The maps name numerous communities that do not exist. These include Shlomzion, on land belonging to the Palestinian town of Aqraba, east of Nablus; Lev Hashomron, on the land of Kafr Haja, between Nablus and Qalqilyah; Mevo Adumim, on the lands of al-Azariya and Abu Dis; and Mitzpeh Zanoah and Mitzpeh Lahav, in south Mount Hebron.
The names of several sites suggest they are earmarked for the expansion of existing settlements, although some of the parcels are several kilometers distant from their namesakes. These include Immanuel Mizrah, Elkana Bet, Beit Aryeh Gimmel and Tekoa Sheet'hei Mir'ey, among others.
The maps also mark 81 sites on 114,000 dunams in areas A and B, which are under Palestinian civil control, indicating the Civil Administration began identifying available land before the Oslo Accords. But these parcels have not been updated in several years because Israel cannot build settlements on them.
All the other areas − 506,000 dunams in Area C, have been updated in the past decade. This implies the administration earmarked the sites as reserves for future use, says Etkes.
More than 90 percent of this land is east of the separation barrier, beyond the main settlement blocs.
"This means the administration currently updates the 'land bank,' flouting the peace process, which is based on the two-state principle," Etkes said.
Most of the marked areas − 485,000 dunams in area C − are classified as state lands. About 7,600 dunams are classified as "Jewish land" from before 1948, and 12,800 dunams are unclassified. way. Presumably the administration sees them as state lands, says Etkes.
Under international pressure Israel has drastically reduced new claims of land for the state. In a letter to Nir Shalev of Bimkom − Planners for Planning Rights, the Civil Administration said that in 2003-09 a total of 5,000 dunams were declared state lands, as opposed to hundreds of thousands of dunams in previous decades.
Some 375,000 dunams in Area C are not included in the jurisdiction of the settlements, which take up some 9.5 percent of the West Bank.
A 2007 Peace Now report indicated that only nine percent of the land in the settlements' jurisdiction were in use. The administration's map reveals the existence of another land reserve. Although only a small part has been officially allocated to the settlements, it is being constantly updated by the administration.
The Civil Administration said in a response that the maps are a data bank that is updated from time to time and does not indicate plans to expand settlements, which is a complex procedure requiring discussions and permits."

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 04:08 AM

That is not expansion.
It is emigration.
Israel has shrunk back to a tiny sliver of land surrounded by vast Arab nations.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Ed T
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 07:02 AM

With other events in the news, ISIS has taken a back burner. That does not mean there is a pause in its actions.

ISIS in the news 

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 07:10 AM

Indeed.
There are other threads for other events, but this thread has to be hijacked to attack Israel too.
Such obsession suggests irrational phobia.

"genocide" (Independent)
Who cares?
Burning truly ancient churches.
Who cares?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 07:16 AM

Discussing Israelis slaughtering Muslim civilians an "obsession"?
Maybe to sick obsessive who openly support such things - not to normal people who consider fragment bombs used on non- combatants obscenity.
Thread drift rides again, as it always does when our resident hate-merchant finds himself in a hole
"It is emigration."
WHAT!!!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 08:00 AM

"Islamists may be planning imminent attack in Norway: police
Reuters
2 hours ago

OSLO (Reuters) - Militant Islamists with ties to Syria may be planning an attack in Norway, the head of the Norwegian police intelligence service said on Thursday.

"We also have information to suggest that any act of terrorism against Norway may take place shortly, probably within a few days," said Benedicte Bjoernland, the director of the Police Security Service, declining to reveal the source of information. "The people (named in the threat) participated in the fighting in Syria."

NATO-member Norway has been working to clamp down on militant activity, and in May it arrested three people suspected of aiding The Islamic State in Iraq and the Levant, an al Qaeda offshoot fighting in Syria.

Also in May, the spy chief of neighboring Sweden said the country's biggest security threat came from around 200 Islamists who could become involved in militant attacks, including young people radicalized after fighting in Syria. A botched suicide bomb attack four years ago in Stockholm and the conviction in 2012 of three Swedes for plotting to kill people at a Danish newspaper after it published cartoons of the Prophet Mohammad in 2005 have shown the Nordic countries are not immune to attacks.'


http://news.yahoo.com/islamist-militant-group-may-planning-attack-norway-police-085935292.html

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 08:06 AM

Jimmy boy,

"not to normal people who consider fragment bombs used on non- combatants obscenity. "


So you have defined yourself as other than normal- YOU have supported Hamas using those bombs, as long as they ( sort of) aim them at ISRAELI civilians.


So far, Hamas has killed Palestinian civilians and Bedouins living in Israel with those rockets,


BUT YOU MAKE NO COMMENT AT ALL SINCE YOU CAN'T BLAME THOSE DEATHS ON ISRAEL.


That is part of the DEFINITION of Anti-Semitism as defined by the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 08:18 AM

"So you have defined yourself as other than normal- YOU have supported Hamas using those bombs, as long as they ( sort of) aim them at ISRAELI civilians."
You are lying Brucie - always a sign that you are in a corner
Feel free to produce of ANYBODY OTHER THAN YOUR OWN CROWD BOMBING CIVILIANS - LET ALONE USING ANTI-PERSONNEL FRAGMENT SHELLS
We can't stop you lying anymore than we can stop you calling those who oppose Israeli terrorism, "Antisemites - nor would we want to, as far as I'm concerned.
Your doing so is a clear indication of the type of fascist-supporting ratbags you really are
Fell free to either keep up the good work or humiliate us by producing evidence of your lying claims - won't hold my breath
Have a good day - d'you hear - plenty of entertainment on the television at present now the death toll has topped 700
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 10:28 AM

Jimmy boy,

"You are lying Brucie - always a sign that you are in a corner
Feel free to produce of ANYBODY OTHER THAN YOUR OWN CROWD BOMBING CIVILIANS - LET ALONE USING ANTI-PERSONNEL FRAGMENT SHELLS
"

YOU are the lie- as usual. The ROCKETS that Hamas has admitted firing at Israeli civilians, have been seen being launched from hospital yards, schools, and apartment blocks, and found in UN schools ARE ALL ANTI-PERSONNEL FRAGMENTATION WARHEADS.

Your failure to understand that is proof that you have no interest in the truth or in reducing civilian casualties- YOU have NEVER said that Hamas should stop firing them.

YOU, Jim Carroll, have shown yourself to be an Anti-Semite by the EU definition.





Point proven, you have been humiliated.

Not that that will stop your bigotry and encouragement of civilian casualties.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 10:55 AM

to repeat:

Hamas rockets ARE ANTI_PERSONNEL WARHEADS.

Hamas rockets fall in Gaza and kill Palestinians with their ANTI-PERSONNEL WARHEADS.


Jim Carroll is a liar and has the blood of Palestinian civilians on his hands for his support, by repeatedly lying about facts in order to excuse Hamas war crimes.


"A Palestinian Arab girl was killed and three others wounded in Gaza after a rocket fired at Israel by terrorists in the Hamas-enclave fell short, landing in Gaza itself.

The rocket was the third of four fired within an hour from Gaza. The Iron Dome anti-missile defense system shot down the first two, which were launched within minutes of each other, and the fourth hit a town in the Sedot Negev Regional Council, causing no damage.

Hamas medical sources say the fatality is a three-year-old girl.

Over 20 rockets have been fired at Israel since Operation Brother's Keeper began two weeks ago to rescue the three Israeli teens kidnapped by Hamas terrorists, with the IDF noting that over 200 rockets have been fired from Gaza since the start of the year.

Another failed missile was recorded last Friday. After Iron Dome shot down a rocket earlier in the day, another terrorist rocket was fired but fell short of its mark, landing in Gaza. No damage was reported in the incident.

In addition to the four rockets on Tuesday, Arab media sources reported mortar fire being launched from Gaza towards the Erez Border Crossing. IDF sources said the incident is being investigated; no damage or injuries were reported."


Note that Hamas NEVER admits that ANY of their rockets hit Gaza, even when observed to do so. NOT ONE PALESTINIAN CASUALTY ADMITTED- They blame them all on Israel even when there had been NO Israeli attack at that time or place.

And Jim Carroll repeat these lies, in support of a declared terrorist organization that has stated it's goal is to KILL JEWS.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 11:53 AM

Propaganda from Juicy Brucie's friends - note that even here the disparity in arms is self-evident.

http://beyondthecusp.wordpress.com/2014/07/17/hamas-rockets-and-israeli-munitions/

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 12:45 PM

Israeli militants under the command of Netanyahu have bombed a UN run school, used as a shelter. It is the fourth time, according to The BBC that UN facilities have been bombed.

725 Palestinians have now been killed, and 30 Israelis.

If braidedbeardedbruce wants to waffle on about killing Jews, not a single Jew nor Arab has been killed.

Just 755 humans.

You see, it doesn't matter which imaginary friend you have when you are alive, there isn't one for when you are dead.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 01:07 PM

U.N. School casualties announced as 15 dead, dozens injured
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 01:16 PM

Palestinian HAMAS officials claim that it was Israeli tank shells-


— Israeli tank shells hit a compound housing a U.N. school in the Gaza Strip on Thursday, killing at least 15 people and wounding dozens who were seeking shelter from fierce clashes on the streets outside, Palestinian officials said, as Israel pressed forward with its 17-day war against the territory's Hamas rulers.

Related Stories

Gaza fighting rages amid cease-fire efforts Associated Press

Pools of blood stained the school courtyard in the northern town of Beit Hanoun, amid scattered books and belongings. There was a large scorch mark in the courtyard marking the place where one of the tank shells hit. Dozens of people, including children were wheeled into a nearby hospital as sirens wailed."

This sounds a LOT like an Hamas rocket, and NOTHING like a tank shell of any kind.



"The Israeli military said it was reviewing the incident, saying that rockets launched by Hamas had landed in the Beit Hanoun area during fighting with its forces, and that those rockets may be responsible for the deaths."

Amazing how a tank shell that puts holes in concrete just leaves a black mark in an undamaged courtyard, like those Hamas rocket ANTI_PERSONNEL Warheads do.


But of course we HAVE to believe Hamas, and CANNOT believe Israel NO MATTER WHAT THE EVIDENCE.


What a bunch of shit-for-brains.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 01:43 PM

And MORE from Musket and Jimmy's friends in Iraq…I wonder if they are getting paid, or just support ISIS for the fun of it.


Geneva (AFP) - Jihadists in Iraq have ordered that all women between the ages of 11 and 46 must undergo female genital mutilation, which could affect up to four million women and girls in the war-ravaged country, a UN official said Thursday.

The UN's second most senior official in Iraq, Jacqueline Badcock, said, "It is a fatwa (or religious edict) from ISIS, we learnt about it this morning. We have no precise numbers."

The Islamic State, formerly known as the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIS), took over large swathes of the country last month and has begun imposing its extreme Salafist interpretation of Islam.

Badcock said that if you took UN population figures as a guide, around "four million girls and women could be affected".

Female genital mutilation is unusual in Iraq and is only practised in "certain isolated pockets of the country", she added.

She said only 20 families from the ancient Christian minority now remain in Mosul, the northern Iraq city which ISIS has taken as the capital of its Islamic state. Most have reportedly fled north into Kurdish-controlled territory.

Badcock said some Christians have converted to Islam, while others have opted to stay and pay the jiyza, the tax on non-Muslim's ISIS has imposed.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 02:46 PM

"The Israeli military said it was reviewing the incident,"
And about to find themselves not guilty as they have after every other massacre they have taken part in.
Who knows they may make the feller who did the killing prime minister, like they did the one responsible for the Sabra/Shatila massacre - watch your back Netanyahu - there's somebody after your job.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 02:55 PM

Jimmy boy,

SHOW ME ONE CASE WHERE HAMAS HAS ADMITTED THAT THEIR OWN ROCKETS HAVE KILLED PALESTINIANS. THERE IS DOCUMENTED EVIDENCE that they HAVE misfired, and hit populated areas of Gaza, yet NEVER has Hamas admitted it., Nor have YOU.


You seem to think their coverup is just fine- another example that proves YOU ARE AN ANTI-SEMITE according to the EU definition.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 02:58 PM

Jimmy is just fine with DEAD PALESTINIAN CIVILIANS, so long as he gets to try to blame Israel for them.

When SOMEONE ELSE Kills Palestinian civilians, or other Arab Muslims, he is so quiet. I guess he does not want to upset his friends in Hamas and ISIS.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 02:59 PM

Beardedbruce.

You are supporting terrorists. Stop saying decent respectable members of the human race such as Jim and I do.

We don't. We are humans with a conscience. You are the one exhibiting personality disorder here and it ain't pretty.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 03:15 PM

Musket,

To the contrary. YOU and Jimmy are the ones who support war crimes and the murder of innocent Palestinians civilians by Hamas. You are hardly decent or respectable members of the human race- You fail two present any facts to support your opinions, and attack those who disagree with you rather than present facts to show where they may be wrong. THAT makes you scum.

"We don't. We are humans with a conscience. "

More lies- YOU have shown no conscience or humanity, just support for attacks on innocent civilians, both Israeli and Palestinian, by Hamas.

You are the one exhibiting personality disorder here and it ain't pretty.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 03:18 PM

Ah, BullshitBruce is off his meds again.......

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 03:22 PM

GregF,

YOU already tried to smear me with an outright lie, and got caught at it. Do you think you might stop having your friends try being as much of a scum-sucking asshole as you have been?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 03:37 PM

"YOU already tried to smear me with an outright lie"
No Brucie - you have called everybody who thinks the people who have just bombarded a school full of refugees murdering bastards, supporters of Hamas or Antisemites or liars or naive - now, but your money were your moth has been and defend your owqn support for terrorism rather than name calling and skulking behind the Jewish dead
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 04:08 PM

There is a current thread for Israel already.
Why must you use this one too.
The Caliphate has announced compulsory FGM.
Who cares?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Ed T
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 05:05 PM

From BBC:

Doubts grow over Isis 'FGM edict' in Iraq 

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: robomatic
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 05:17 PM

I doubt that the Sunni fundys known as ISIL, ISIS, or IS, have a statutory position mandating FGM. FGM is not Islamic, it's cultural, happens to be cultural in Islamic countries mainly.
there are plenty of real horrors to accuse IS for, FGM probably not one of them.
If you don't care, then don't drag in extraneous untruths (Just the straneous one).

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 05:47 PM

YOU already tried to smear me with an outright lie

Please specify and document your accusation , or is it simply more of the usual Bullshit we all expect from Bullshit Bruce?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 06:47 PM

Another thread that should be terminated.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 07:58 PM

Or, perhaps, another poster that should be terminated ??

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Mrrzy
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 01:56 AM

Female genital mutilation is too (not to mean overly, but contradicting is not) islamic. Look it up.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 02:35 AM

"Who cares?"
Nobody cares what propaganda you and you cabal of brothers care to throw up, especially when you either openly suppor or deny out of hand what is now appearing nightly on our televisions - destruction of hospitals, slaughter of men, women and children, use of horrific weapons... the potential wiping-out of an entire Third World people by fascist thugs.
Bring your proof and we'll care Keith - you can open a newspaper or turn on the television and see ours (or are they "in the pay" of Hamas, as your sick moth-frothing friend has suggested all of us are disgusted by what is happening is.
It is easy to see how pre-war Germany happened when you come into contact with you people
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 03:03 AM

Keith quite rightly asks if anyone cares that ISIS wish their caliphate to include FGM.

Sadly, that's what happens when religion has too much influence in society and wicked people use it to justify misogyny and bigotry.

The thread I started on the positive steps the Anglican Church has taken in allowing women to apply for senior posts shows that interpretation of scriptures can be altered if you come under enough pressure from the rest of society.

Somehow though, I don't see the militant genesis of this caliphate being about the will and needs of those caught within it.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 04:53 AM

This was in the Guardian yesterday.
"The United Nations said on Thursday that militant group Islamic State (Isis) had ordered all girls and women in and around Iraq's northern city of Mosul to undergo female genital mutilation."

I hope the claim has proved false.
The point I was making was that serious issues and concerns regarding the caliphate appear not to concern many contributors here, who would rather use the thread as just another platform to attack Israel.

There are hundreds of threads about Israel including a current one.
What drives those people to carry on as if nothing else in the world matters?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 05:06 AM

Why, Keith, antisemitism, of course.

And as that rather well conceived character, the barrister in Shaw's 'You Never Can Tell' would have put it --

They think it isn't, but it is.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 05:07 AM

Nothing else in the world matters if the aggression in Gaza proves that neither Western nor Arab league influence actually works. It also may prove, as if we didn't know already, that there are no rules.

Back to caliphates..

I hope The UN report proves to be taking a local story and extrapolating it. The will of the leadership would encourage it though, as they use adherence to religion as a tool to ensure the people do their bidding.

Awful. Truly awful. I was one of many who fought hard, unsuccessfully, to remove the right of rabbis to perform circumcism on baby boys.   Other faiths and no faiths need qualified medical staff to undertake it, citing health (the original biblical reason funnily enough) as the legal reason. If you banned it, it would go underground. I have seen this when doctors doing it privately for Islamic reasons had to register with CQC and some didn't like the cost. Being struck off and in one case jailed was the satisfactory real cost.

Mutilating children for superstitious reasons is sickening and abhorrent.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 05:36 AM

Video here of the destruction of the ancient mosque which marks the tomb of the prophet Jonah.
Nice people.
https://globalvoicesonline.org/2014/07/24/isis-destroys-prophet-jonahs-mosque-in-mosul/

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 06:35 AM

Funny, Keith, I'd have inferred that you approved of the destruction of mosques.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 06:35 AM

"Video here of the destruction of the ancient mosque which marks the tomb of the prophet Jonah."
Oh dear - pity it wasn't a hospital, do you mean?
"I hope the claim has proved false."
No you don't - you hope it is true - the Guardian report points out that the UN have dropped the idea because the report is a year old and there is no evidence to back it up - you forgot to mention that bit of 'unnecessary' information
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 07:20 AM

GregF,

YOU stated that I had called someone a "Dumb Ni**er"


Your explainanition was that SOMEONE ELSE had used the term "Black, and Democrat", which YOU read as "Dumb Ni**er"


You even admitted that you had the wrong person- after the fact.


In this area of the country, people are fired from their jobs for using such terms as "niggardly" , even correctly.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 07:29 AM

Michael just said that we are only interested in the horrific events in Gaza because we are somehow antisemitic.

So.. The whole world looks on in disgust at the Israeli militant terrorists because of something to do with hating anybody of the same religion as most of the Israelis?

Truly awful.

Its a good job that once you reach his age, nobody listens to you and your views are no longer relevant to the real world. Does nurse know you have access to a keyboard?

I've just read The Guardian piece. Turns out Keith was being economical with the timeline. Still, the ISIS leaders would use such barbaric practice as part of their misguided misogyny, as religious people tend to, so vigilance is still a watchword here.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 07:30 AM

Jim, the report has since been updated.
Yesterday it was just the Guardian quoting UN stating it was so.
If it is false, good.

Richard, perhaps you will reconsider your prejudice against me.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 08:00 AM

We can hope that it is not true, but it is being reported in the world press.


http://english.alarabiya.net/en/News/middle-east/2014/07/24/-ISIS-order-female-genital-mutilation-in-Iraq.html


http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/middle-east/ISIS-jihadists-order-genital-mutilation-of-all-women-in-Iraq/articleshow/38


http://www.hindustantimes.com/world-news/iraqonthebrink/did-isis-order-mass-female-genital-mutilation/article1-1244306.aspx

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 08:10 AM

The report has not been updated
The 'evidence' from the UN had come from an official, Jacqueline Badcock, who based her statement on a year old statement which has been challenged on the basis factual errors contained in the document and the fact that it was headed using a long-abandoned title for the supposed declaration - in other word a fake.
The plan has been denied, both by ISIS, who are in the position not to have to bother their arses about denying anything, and by area officials.
All these facts are contained in reports published in the Guardian and other Press outlets , and it is typical of your 'honesty and integrity' that you have seen fit not to mention them.
Nobody doubts that extremists like ISIS are capable of shch atrocities, any more than we are in any doubt of your own extremsim in removing information in order to make political/ religious capital out of it.
What excuses do you have for the killing of two demonstrators and the wounding of scores more by troops in Israel - no doubt you have one?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 08:14 AM

So, Jimmy,

When the UN states something you approve of, you use it as evidence without ant fact-checking..

When they state something you don't approve of, they need to verify there facts before you will believe it.


I certainly hope you will allow the REST of us to apply the rules you have given yourself, and will henceforth accept OUR judgements as being as valid as your own.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 08:17 AM

ENTIRE TEXT of Al Arabiya News article- I do not see what Jimmy has claimed to "KNOW" about this report.



"ISIS orders female genital mutilation in Iraq


A family fleeing the violence in Mosul waits at a checkpoint on the outskirts of Arbil, in Iraq's Kurdistan region, June 11, 2014. (Reuters)
Text size A A A
Staff Writer, Al Arabiya News
Thursday, 24 July 2014
The al-Qaeda-Inspired Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (ISIS) has ordered all girls and women between the ages of 11 and 46 in and around Iraq's northern city of Mosul to undergo female genital mutilation, the United Nations said on Thursday.

"It is a fatwa (or religious edict) of ISIS, we learnt this this morning," said Jacqueline Badcock, the number two U.N. official in Iraq.

The "fatwa" would potentially affect 4 million women and girls, Badcock told reporters in Geneva by videolink from Arbil.

"This is something very new for Iraq, particularly in this area, and is of grave concern and does need to be addressed," she said, according to Reuters.

"This is not the will of Iraqi people, or the women of Iraq in these vulnerable areas covered by the terrorists," she added.

No one was immediately available for comment from Islamic State which has led an offensive through northern and western Iraq.

Also read:

ISIS takes jihadists on honeymoon in Iraq and Syria

Photos surface of ISIS leader Baghdadi's wife

ISIS unveils 'cabinet' lineup: report

How ISIS conquered social media



The world body has "zero contact" with ISIS, but works through tribal leaders in the affected areas, Badcock said. "I can't give you any more details until we have been on the ground to get information," she said of the directive.

FGM, the partial or total removal of external female genitalia, is a tradition practiced widely in many countries and often justified as a means of suppressing a woman's sexual desire to prevent "immoral" behavior.
Female Genital Mutilation in U.S. sparks warnings

Worldwide, more than 130 million girls and women have undergone FGM and more than 700 million women alive today were children when they were married.

The practice of FGM previously occurred only in isolated pockets of Iraq, mainly Kurdistan, according to Badcock.

Mosul city currently has some two million people, more than half of whom are women as there are many female-headed households in the area, she said. Several more million people live in surrounding areas, she added.

"There are reports of rapes of women, of forced marriages," Badcock added.


Last Update: Thursday, 24 July 2014 KSA 17:46 - GMT 14:46"

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 08:39 AM

But BB, in your area of the country, are people are fired from their jobs for using such terms as "anti-Semite" incorrectly?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 08:48 AM

"24 July 2014 KSA 17:46 - GMT 14:46"
Report issued 6.pm this morning
"However, later reports cast doubt on the viral story. As it turns out, the Islamic State's leader Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi suggested the practice over a year ago, while Badcock herself admitted to having "zero contact" with the extremist group, alluding mainly to rumors heard from tribal leaders in the area."
As the organization tries to ascertain what went on, a number of journalists with contacts in Iraq has shared what they believe to be the reality behind the ghastly rumors.
I am aware of the practice of female genital mutilation, just as I am aware of other religions carrying out such operations, including the circumcision of 8 day old boys because their religion demands it - I deplore them all as barbaric.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 11:56 AM

I would not know, GregF.

MOST of us here have agreed to use the EU definition, to avoid falsely accusing anyone.

Since YOU qualify under that definition, there is no problem that I would be using the term incorrectly.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 12:01 PM

The Times has the story just 3 hours ago.
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/world/middleeast/article4156906.ece

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 12:07 PM

Jim, your "6pm this morning" report was Russia Today I see.

Irish Times covered it yesterday, and no retraction yet printed.
You chose not to paste in that story as you so often do.

Let us hope the story is still false.
Not much doubt about the destroyed mosques and churches though.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 03:46 PM

"Jim, your "6pm this morning" report was Russia Today I see"
No it wasn't - but it might well have come from there originally - so what
Which a bit of the information given do you actually challenge.
The fact of the age of the document was reported all day yesterday throughout the world, as were the denials of its having been distributed = denied by local people?
"Not much doubt about the destroyed mosques and churches though."
Nor about the half dozen destroyed hospitals, the health centres, the many thousands of homes- not to mention the 800 dead so far.
Which is the greater crime - homes, hospitals, human beings? - a few churches, obviously
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 03:56 PM

The GREATER CRIME is the thousands killed by ISIS that YOU seem so desperately to ignore, since you cannot blame them on Israel.

THIS THREAD IS ABOUT THE CALIPHATE-

Your bringing up Israel in all your posts is proof positive of your anti-Semitism as defined by the EU.


When you learn to judge EVERYONE EQUALLY, perhaps you will show some concern for those Muslims being killed by your friends, both in Gaza (HAMAS) and Iraq (ISIS)

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jul 14 - 03:51 AM

"Irish Times covered it yesterday, and no retraction yet printed."
You have obviously scoured the press and failed to come up with anything new in the way of confirmation.
The story did not need to be "pasted in" - you had already put it in and I pointed out the doubt that surrounded it - that doubt was available to you also - you chose to present it as a fact, when it was an unconfirmed statement by a U.N. employee on the basis of dubious evidence.
Your hoping is not true is as sickening as were your crocodile shed for the victims of the Homs snipers, shed at the same time as your proposing that it was o.k. to sell Assad "only a few sniper rifles" (your exact words) and suggesting that he be sold more riot control equipment to keep his dissidents in order "even democracies have a right to keep public order" (also your exact words)   
" anti-Semitism"
Blaming the Jews again 'Brucie the Bombast' - Hitler aint dead, he just posts to Mudcat" as the song should go.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 26 Jul 14 - 04:46 AM

The issue here isn't about discussing Isis and their interpretation of a Caliphate, but the idea of a Caliphate itself.

Most of the cultural, scientific and community development of the past thousand years has been through caliphates. Whilst democracy and holding to account is the predominant form of government and is to be encouraged in my view, a caliphate in itself is not about FGM, oppression of groups of people or adherence to any form of superstition.

Some of our less talented fools here seem to put forward the idea a caliphate is a form of fundamental Islamic rule. Perhaps the idea of a caliphate offends their particular superstition?

The bastardisation of the caliphate form of government is awful, but some here need to distinguish between caliphates and Islamic formed oppression. It's a bit like Israel using superstition of most of its population as an excuse to oppress neighbours and claim land contrary to International law.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jul 14 - 04:51 AM

Jim, I agree that a church is just a building.
It is always sad when any ancient building, church or not, is wantonly destroyed.
The destruction of the churches and mosques is also a part of the genocide of the Christian community and the brutal persecution of the Shia that is going on.
The death toll is horrifyingly worse than Gaza, as it is in Syria.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jul 14 - 05:36 AM

"It is always sad when any ancient building, church or not, is wantonly destroyed."
Far sadder when human beings are massacred - you have condoned and supported that and are still doing so.
"genocide of the Christian community"
You have supported the ethnic cleansing of itinerants and are suprting the genocide tat is going on in Gaza at present.
Taking sides in which genocide to support and which to oppose - is that a 'Christian ethic?'
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jul 14 - 05:55 AM

Some of our less talented fools here seem to put forward the idea a caliphate is a form of fundamental Islamic rule.

This caliphate unashamedly is Musket.

Far sadder when human beings are massacred - you have condoned and supported that and are still doing so.
It is sadder, and it is a lie that I have condoned such things.

You have supported the ethnic cleansing of itinerants

Another lie. Why do you always make up shit about me?

and are suprting the genocide tat is going on in Gaza at present.

There is no genocide in Gaza.
Find me anyone else but you and your mates who make such a moronic claim.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jul 14 - 06:28 AM

"There is no genocide in Gaza."
How many deaths of one particular group of people does it have to be to count as gencocide?
Noam Chomski - that well known "Anti-Semite" has used the term, as have numerous other Jews, in reference to Israeli policy
Chomski also refers to Israeli policy as ethnic cleansing
Jim Carroll

Statement from someone other than "me and my mates"

Israel's Crimes against Palestinians: War Crimes, Crimes Against Humanity, Genocide
by Francis A. Boyle

(The author served as Legal Adviser to the Palestinian Delegation to the Middle East peace Negotiations from 1991 to 1993. The viewpoints expressed here are his own.)

The International Laws of Belligerent Occupation
Belligerent occupation is governed by The Hague Regulations of 1907, as well as by the Fourth Geneva Convention of 1949, and the customary laws of belligerent occupation. Security Council Resolution 1322 (2000), paragraph 3 continued: "Calls upon Israel, the occupying Power, to abide scrupulously by its legal obligations and its responsibilities under the Fourth Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in a Time of War of 12 August 1949;..." Again, the Security Council vote was 14 to 0, becoming obligatory international law.
The Fourth Geneva Convention applies to the West Bank, to the Gaza Strip, and to the entire City of Jerusalem, in order to protect the Palestinians living there. The Palestinian People living in this Palestinian Land are "protected persons" within the meaning of the Fourth Geneva Convention. All of their rights are sacred under international law.
There are 149 substantive articles of the Fourth Geneva Convention that protect the rights of every one of these Palestinians living in occupied Palestine. The Israeli Government is currently violating, and has since 1967 been violating, almost each and every one of these sacred rights of the Palestinian People recognized by the Fourth Geneva Convention. Indeed, violations of the Fourth Geneva Convention are war crimes.
So this is not a symmetrical situation. As matters of fact and of law, the gross and repeated violations of Palestinian rights by the Israeli army and Israeli settlers living illegally in occupied Palestine constitute war crimes. Conversely, the Palestinian People are defending Themselves and their Land and their Homes against Israeli war crimes and Israeli war criminals, both military and civilian.

The U.N. Human Rights Commission
Indeed, it is far more serious than that. On 19 October 2000 a Special Session of the U.N. Commission on Human Rights adopted a Resolution set forth in U.N. Document E/CN.4/S-5/L.2/Rev. 1, "Condemning the provocative visit to Al-Haram Al-Sharif on 28 September 2000 by Ariel Sharon, the Likud party leader, which triggered the tragic events that followed in occupied East Jerusalem and the other occupied Palestinian territories, resulting in a high number of deaths and injuries among Palestinian civilians." The U.N. Human Rights Commission then said it was "[g]ravely concerned" about several different types of atrocities inflicted by Israel upon the Palestinian People, which it denominated "war crimes, flagrant violations of international humanitarian law and crimes against humanity."
In operative paragraph 1 of its 19 October 2000 Resolution, the U.N. Human Rights Commission then: "Strongly condemns the disproportionate and indiscriminate use of force in violation of international humanitarian law by the Israeli occupying Power against innocent and unarmed Palestinian civilians...including many children, in the occupied territories, which constitutes a war crime and a crime against humanity;..." And in paragraph 5 of its 19 October 2000 Resolution, the U.N. Human Rights Commission: "Also affirms that the deliberate and systematic killing of civilians and children by the Israeli occupying authorities constitutes a flagrant and grave violation of the right to life and also constitutes a crime against humanity;..." Article 68 of the United Nations Charter had expressly required the U.N.'s Economic and Social Council to "set up" this Commission "for the promotion of human rights."

Israel's War Crimes against Palestinians
We all have a general idea of what a war crime is, so I am not going to elaborate upon that term here. But there are different degrees of heinousness for war crimes. In particular are the more serious war crimes denominated "grave breaches" of the Fourth Geneva Convention. Since the start of the Al Aqsa Intifada, the world has seen those inflicted every day by Israel against the Palestinian People living in occupied Palestine: e.g., willful killing of Palestinian civilians by the Israeli army and Israel's illegal paramilitary settlers. These Israeli "grave breaches" of the Fourth Geneva Convention mandate universal prosecution for their perpetrators, whether military or civilian, as well as prosecution for their commanders, whether military or civilian, including Israel's political leaders.

Israel's Crimes Against Humanity against Palestinians
But I want to focus for a moment on Israel's "crime against humanity" against the Palestinian People -- as determined by the U.N. Human Rights Commission itself, set up pursuant to the requirements of the United Nations Charter. What is a "crime against humanity"? This concept goes all the way back to the Nuremberg Charter of 1945 for the trial of the major Nazi war criminals. And in the Nuremberg Charter of 1945, drafted by the United States Government, there was created and inserted a new type of international crime specifically intended to deal with the Nazi persecution of the Jewish People.
The paradigmatic example of a "crime against humanity" is what Hitler and the Nazis did to the Jewish People. This is where the concept of crime against humanity came from. And this is what the U.N. Human Rights Commission determined that Israel is currently doing to the Palestinian People: Crimes against humanity. Legally, just like what Hitler and the Nazis did to the Jews.

The Precursor to Genocide
Moreover, a crime against humanity is the direct historical and legal precursor to the international crime of genocide as defined by the 1948 Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide. The theory here was that what Hitler and the Nazis did to the Jewish People required a special international treaty that would codify and universalize the Nuremberg concept of "crime against humanity." And that treaty ultimately became the 1948 Genocide Convention.
In fairness, you will note that the U.N. Human Rights Commission did not go so far as to condemn Israel for committing genocide against the Palestinian People. But it has condemned Israel for committing crimes against humanity, which is the direct precursor to genocide. And I submit that if something is not done quite soon by the American People and the International Community to stop Israeli war crimes and crimes against humanity against the Palestinian People, it could very well degenerate into genocide, if Israel is not there already. And in this regard, Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon is what international lawyers call a genocidaire--one who has already committed genocide in the past.

Mr. Francis A. Boyle is a Professor in International Law.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Jul 14 - 06:51 AM

In 2005, the European Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia (now Fundamental Rights Agency), published a working definition of antisemitism,
.,,.,.

The above, which I have cited before, comes from Wikipedia, where this definition can be found. It is generally taken to be a reasonable statement of the case as to what, by agreement, constitutes antisemitism; and I think it is incontrovertible that there are several repetitive posters on this forum, and on this thread, who demonstrably fall foul of it. If they then feel aggrieved at being denounced as 'antisemitic' by Bruce, or by Bobad, (or by me for that matter; tho I have rather given up on contributing to threads like this, becoz, as I have mentioned before, heads against brick walls or pulling out of beard can be more constructive & satisfying), then they will do better to take the matter up with the Fundamental Rights Agency named above, than to keep arguing that we are making false accusations against them as some sort of unworthy defensive measure.

I say again, in the Words of Shaw's character: THEY ARE ANTISEMITIC [WITHIN DEFINITION CITED ABOVE]; THEY THINK THEY AREN'T, BUT THEY ARE.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 26 Jul 14 - 07:00 AM

Who are you quoting when you say "ethnic cleansing of itinerants?"

Its just that it reads as if I said that?

If I did, I am more astute than I thought. That said, all my complaining over Keith's attitude is valid and based entirely on his posts. I wish to debate, hence I am on these threads in the first place. It isn't possible when people post outrageous views then attack anybody who questions them.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jul 14 - 07:29 AM

Stop hiding behind bits of paper Mike
The logic of your argument is that if Israel set up gas chambers and herded the Palestinian people into them it would be "Anti-Semitic" to compare them to the Nazis - give us a break!
Let Israel be judged by its actions, not by committee rules.
I have little doubt that anybody dreamed that Israel would ever sink to the depths they now have - I certainly didn't.
Why not address the criticisms Einstein, Chomski, and the Mossad people made rather than creating no-go areas in Israel's defence - or do you, as Booboo, consider them all Antisemitic?
A little Canutish to try and hold back the inevitable comparison.
"ethnic cleansing of itinerants?"
Can't remember exactly who said it, but it came up in relation to the Prawer plan and its two attempts to move Beduoins onto a toxic rubbish site
A quick shuufti pulls up these
Jim Caroll
GLOBAL RESEARCH

SIR BOB RUSSELL



Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 26 Jul 14 - 07:43 AM

Globalresearch.ca (also under the domain name globalresearch.org) may best be described as the moonbat equivalent to WorldNetDaily. It is the website of the Montreal-based non-profit The Centre for Research on Globalisation (CRG) founded by Michel Chossudovsky.

Despite presenting itself as a source of scholarly analysis, Globalresearch.ca mostly consists of polemics many of which accept (and use) conspiracy theories, pseudoscience and propaganda. The prevalent conspiracist strand relates to global power-elites (primarily governments and corporations) and their New World Order.[1] Specific featured conspiracy theories include those addressing 9/11,[2] vaccines,[3] genetic modification,[4] Zionism,[5][6] HAARP,[7] global warming,[8][9] and David Kelly.[10] Analyses of these issues tend follow the lines of the site's political biases.

Apparently, contributors to Globalresearch.ca consider information sourced from anyone who seems aligned to their ideology as reliable; during the 2011 Libyan civil war the site was an apologist for Muammar al-Gaddafi,[11] reproducing his propaganda and painting him as a paragon of a modern leader. In the 2014 Ukrainian crisis the site is taking the standard "anti-globalisation" stance against the Western side and falling into the ranks of imperial Russian propaganda instead.

It's no surprise then that the site has long become a magnet for radicals, fringe figures and whacko elements from the left in general. And ironically, it has more in common with its writers' enemies and wingnut rivals than they would ever admit.

Rational Wiki

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jul 14 - 08:20 AM

OK Jim.
You could find no-one else claiming genocide then.

Musket,
people post outrageous views

I have never posted one, and you will never quote one because it is just more made up Musket balls.

Will you prove me wrong this time?
No.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jul 14 - 08:29 AM

And Sir Bob an Nazi supporter no doubt?
The term ethnic cleansing is now being applied to Israel's Bedouin policy widely, within and without Israel - Google it.
It refers to the rubbish dump plan as well as the use of chemical sprays and high powered hoses to drive Bedouins from their homes to make room for settlers.
It's just been announced that the death toll now totals 980 Palestinians and 38 Israelis, and likely to rise.
An Israeli tank attack on an occupied home left 16 dead in one family - Hamas under the bed, no doubt!
Whole townships have been leveled and the survivors are using the cease fire to search for possible survivors and bodies.
Has any of you defenders of the faith come up with a figure on your sliding scales before this can be referred to as genocide rather than simple mass murder.
Murderous thugs - no less!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 26 Jul 14 - 09:12 AM

Well considering you deny that The UN do not see Israeli aggression as legitimate, you seem to fit the description "outrageous" so far as I can see.

Linking your lies about The UN to saying that bombing children, hospitals, schools etc is legitimate just compounds your sickness.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 26 Jul 14 - 10:01 AM

It would appear that Musket has a "thing" for the Caliphate just as he has a "thing" for Hamas. Why am I not surprised?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jul 14 - 10:15 AM

Well considering you deny that The UN do not see Israeli aggression as legitimate, you seem to fit the description "outrageous" so far as I can see.

Musket dear, international law allows a nation to intervene over a border in self defence.
I know that you do not believe that, and it is amusing how you posture and declaim your lack of knowledge on this.

I have tried to educate you, but your little mind is closed as well as ignorant.

Keep stating what most people will know to be completely wrong, and we can all continue to laugh at the posturing fool.

Linking your lies about The UN to saying that bombing children, hospitals, schools etc is legitimate just compounds your sickness

I have not lied, I have stated facts.
International law says that, with provisos, legitimate targets may be engaged even if civilian damage and casualties are likely or inevitable.
The crime is in siting those targets near civilian homes and facilities.

Again your ignorance and inability to understand is profound, but very funny.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jul 14 - 10:53 AM

"I have tried to educate you, but your little mind is closed as well as ignorant."
Arrogant bullshit to cover the fact that you have no real defence for the genocide that is taking place other than to support it, which is exactly what you are doing
You have the death toll and the deliberate massacre of an entire family - justfy that one
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jul 14 - 11:04 AM

Not arrogant bullshit but facts.
You two are just incapable of understanding.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jul 14 - 01:42 PM

"You two are just incapable of understanding."
Comes from not being "infallible" eh?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Mrrzy
Date: 26 Jul 14 - 02:06 PM

Well, it was *supposed* to be about the Caliphate. Now it seems to be an object lesson.

It was already Thursday, but His Lordship's artificial limb could not be found.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jul 14 - 02:08 PM

The Israelophobes are driven to hijack threads, any threads, to attack Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 26 Jul 14 - 02:29 PM

175,000 and counting - Oh yawn........no "Palestine" hashtag!


http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/World/Middle-East/85-Syria-troops-killed-in-jihadist-takeover-Monitor/articleshow/39052684.cms

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Jul 14 - 02:38 PM

Stop hiding behind bits of paper Mike
The logic of your argument is that if Israel set up gas chambers and herded the Palestinian people into them it would be "Anti-Semitic" to compare them to the Nazis - give us a break!
.,,.

Constantly astounded at the rubbish one of Jim's apparent intelligence can keep on unblushingly coming out with. Time for him to "give us all a break".

Re pt 1: Hardly 'hiding behind a piece of paper' to cite the findings of an official committee set up by a recognised international body for the express purpose of establishing a definition of the topic immediately under consideration.

Pt2 - Let me know when they do, Jim; and I will stop thinking you 'antisemitic' in going on as if they already have -- which, just as a matter of fact, they haven't, you know; or anything remotely approaching it; and only a hostilely motivated fool could even suggest such a contingency. Honestly don't know what in hell you are on about —

-- & don't believe you really do either. You do sometimes get a bit carried away by your own rhetorical verbosity, you know, dear old chappie: and almost invariably make the sort of bloody fool of yourself which anyone with half an iota of sense can see you have done here, with that idiotic invented contingency quoted above.

Best regards as ever

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 01:06 AM

BTW ~~ Considering the tedious interminability of the portentous documents you continually see fit to copy/paste here, and appear to expect any human being to plough right thru, I think an accusation of 'hiding behind pieces of paper' somewhat ill becomes you, James!

Regards again

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 02:23 AM

Am I dreaming or has Keith repeated yet again that Israel is legitimate in bombing children?

He keeps talking of international law yet The UN keeps reiterating that Israel is an aggressor and has no more right than Hamas.

It is this attitude, when repeated by important people rather than armchair soldiers such as Keith, that make situations worse.

On another thread I referred to the vast number of resolutions and sanctions against Israel. I even quoted from Keith's favourite source Wikipedia.

Pathetic.

In the meantime, Bradford City Council are flying the Palestinian flag outside the city hall. Not everybody is taken in by the fodder Keith loves to read and salivate over.

He says my comments are amusing. His make decent people queasy.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 03:25 AM

"and I will stop thinking you 'antisemitic' in going on as if they already have"
And I will stop regarding you as a cowardly hypocrite when you extend your disapproval of Israel beyond broken camera and fruit trees to take in the deliberate wholesale slaughtering of defenceless human beings - that's a promise.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 03:43 AM

Not much concerned with your opinion of me, Jim: so obviously do not greatly value your 'promise'.

But Happy Birthday to you nevertheless. Enjoy!

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 03:50 AM

"Not much concerned with your opinion of me"
Sadly the feeling is mutual
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 04:08 AM

Still hope enjoyed Poulaphouca, mind...

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 04:40 AM

Am I dreaming or has Keith repeated yet again that Israel is legitimate in bombing children?

You are dreaming.
It is illegal to attack civilians.

He keeps talking of international law yet The UN keeps reiterating that Israel is an aggressor and has no more right than Hamas.

The UN reiterates no such thing, except that General Council resolutions always go against Israel.
You will find no official reiterating such bollocks.

This thread is not about Israel and Gaza BTW.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 04:41 AM

BBC
"Enshrined in Article 51 of the UN Charter, the right of self-defence is accepted as a fundamental principle of international law. While aspects of this principle are disputed, it is universally agreed that a state can defend itself against an armed attack.

There is some debate as to the intensity that an armed attack should reach before a state can lawfully resort to self-defence. Most international lawyers would agree that rockets launched against civilians that disrupt the social life of part of a country constitute an armed attack for the purposes of Article 51"
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20415886

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 05:36 AM

There has never been any question of defence other in the minds of those who wish to defend Israel's genocide.
Hopefully, the country who has suffered greatly under political extremism, (which was fully supported by our own dear Mrs T) will give inspiration to others with its announced boycott of all Israeli goods
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 07:42 AM

"Most international lawyers would agree that rockets launched against civilians that disrupt the social life of part of a country constitute an armed attack for the purposes of Article 51"
BBC.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 01:26 PM

Ha! Ha HA!!

"The UN reiterates no such thing, except that General Council resolutions always go against Israel."

Eeh. if I were in the pub, I'd be shouting that one at you over the bar every time you'd have the barefaced cheek to show your sad face in there.

Hey Keith! Repeat that one about self defence again? It's about the first time you have said anything in favour of the Palestinian struggle.

I suppose I should stop goading him.   He doesn't have the intelligence to make an argument you could discuss against or even, Clapton forbid, agree with.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 01:51 PM

"The UN reiterates no such thing, except that General Council resolutions always go against Israel."

If that is so funny or wrong, produce an example of UN reiterating that.

You can't because it is bollocks.

I have quoted Ban Ki Moon and other officials on this.
The General assembly always votes against Israel, but that is not the UN position.

You just have no idea about any of this.
Your are indeed an inadequate, posturing buffoon.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 03:27 AM

Tell you what I do know, having chaired a few bodies, including government quangos before now.

The position of a body is the resolution of its highest ratifying assembly. In the case of The UN, that would be the general assembly. (Yes, funnily enough I have checked that. Years ago in fact when fishing for WHO funding for a UNHCR project we got involved with.)

So, first you say The UN don't have resolutions against Israel, then you say nobody listens to them (inadvertently a fact) and then you say the position of The UN isn't decided by The UN.

Not much point in carrying on till your medication stabilises. When you said buffoon, for a minute there I thought you meant me. Sorry, you don't have to introduce yourself. Most people on Mudcat seem to know you and where you are coming from...

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 04:34 AM

No one listens to the General Assembly which is dominated by grubby dictatorships each with a vote.
What does Ban Ki Moon say?

It takes a buffoon to pontificate on something they know so little about.
You thought there were UN "sanctions" against Israel.
You thought there were EU "restrictions."
You thought that any civilian death means a war crime is committed.
You did not know that EU, Canada and most democracies recognise Hamas as terrorists and Israel as acting in self defence.
You are an ignorant buffoon.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 04:51 AM

Err.. Let's see.

Yes there are.
Yes there are.
Yes, when there is no recognised war, as in this case.
No, they are both seen as aggressors and defending, as diplomacy demands.

Look Keith, I know you are one of those sad old buggers who likes to impress people, pretending to be a soldier and all that. Good luck to you. My mate Pete even went as far as an SAS badge to sew on his blazer. No harm in that.

But you have to know where to stop. You are trying to impress people who actually know what they speak of, and some of us feel embarrassed for you.

Grubby dictatorships with a vote... Let's leave it at that eh? At least you can go out on a silly high note. That's worthy of your pet worm, never mind you.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 04:57 AM

You still have not learned anything then.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 05:19 AM

Take the first one.
UN sanctions against Israel.
What are they Musket?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 06:39 AM

There are 23 pending sanctions through resolutions for The USA to either lift their veto or move to abstention. Obama, according to BBC reports, told Netanyahu over the weekend that they will be implemented if Israel doesn't cease hostilities.

You are purposely muddying the waters by differentiating between sanctions in force and sanctions awaiting enforcement. Oh, by the way, your stupid comment about dictatorships getting resolutions through? Members of the security council have a veto on implementation as The USA demonstrates. The sanction is there, the veto is about implementation. The technical term is "resolve to sanction."

Far right websites don't tell you that bit. You'll have to broaden your reading matter.

Prat.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 07:49 AM

There are no UN sanctions in force.
You stated that there are.

No wonder you sign yourself Prat!

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 09:13 AM

"There are 23 pending sanctions through resolutions for The USA to either lift their veto or move to abstention."

Complete and utter bullsh*t Musket

A resolution is drafted and discussed by the Security Council of the United Nations. A final wording is agreed and a vote is taken. Any of the five permanent members can then veto the resolution and if that happens then that particular resolution is dead in the water - it cannot be "resurrected", there could be no lifting of veto or alteration of position - The phrase "That the council remains seized on or fixed on" relates to the possible drafting of new resolutions on the same subject.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 10:25 AM

http://news.yahoo.com/congressman-genocide-against-christians-going-iraq-white-house-164618191.html


Virginia Republican Rep. Frank Wolf says there is a genocide being perpetrated against the Christians of Iraq and the White House hasn't said a word about it, much less acted to stop it.

The terrorist group the Islamic State, an al Qaida off shoot that has taken over large swaths of Iraq in recent months, told Christians in the Iraqi city of Mosul they had to convert to Islam by July 18 or they would be killed, according to the Economist. The only other option they were given was to leave Mosul, a city which has had a Christian presence for nearly two millennia. So thousands of Christians have now fled the city in fear for their lives.

"It is genocide. It meets the test of genocide," Wolf said Friday on Hugh Hewitt's radio show, which this writer guest hosted. "The definition of genocide was put together by the UN by a guy named Raphael Lemkin. But it is the eradication of a group of people – race, culture, ethnicity, religion. So this meets the official test of genocide."

Asked if President Barack Obama has spoken out against this atrocity, Wolf said he has not.

"No, the president hasn't said anything, the State Department hasn't said anything," he lamented. "Frankly, nobody is saying anything."

Asked what the United States could do about the situation in Mosul, Wolf listed several options.

"There is a lot we can do," he said. "One, the President of the United States can urge the Kurdish government to continue to guard and protect the Christians."

"Secondly, we can give some of the foreign aid that we are already giving, give it to a group like Catholic Relief or World Vision or a group like that, to provide relief – water, food, clothing," he continued. "Thirdly, we can tell the Maliki government to start protecting the Christian sites and the Christian communities. [Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-]Maliki flew out – all the Shia were flown out of Mosul – and they left the Christians there to die."

"And lastly," Wolf concluded, "every person who is listening should call their congressman and their senator and insist that they insist the White House do something."

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 10:43 AM

If genocide is recognised UN is bound to intervene, so it will not be recognised.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 11:00 AM

My congressman Frank Wolf of Virginia was one of the co-sponsors of House Resolution 1765. Frank has been in Congress a long time and he is reported to be the largest recipient of Israel PAC money in the state of Virginia. In his promotional literature Frank brags about what a great family man he is, including pictures of himself with his grandchildren. I wish him and his family no ill, but I would like to make him think of the consequences of how he votes in Congress. Put Frank and his whole family into a burned out shell of a house in Gaza for a few days without food or water, knowing that to stick their heads out invites a round from an Israeli sniper. See how he would like it. What would be his reaction if one of his grandchildren were to become sick only to be denied access to a hospital three hundred yards away because an Israeli border patrol thug is trying to show how tough he is?...

Philip Giraldi is a former CIA Officer

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 11:06 AM

Greggie boy,

What does Gaza have to do with the Caliphate?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 03:05 PM

You mean what does Frank Wolf have to do with it, Bullshot?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 03:24 PM

Greggie, you total shithead, the comment that Wolf made is about the actions of the "caliphate"

The subject of this thread.

If you have further problems, try taking your head out of your ass before making a post next time.

"The terrorist group the Islamic State, an al Qaida off shoot that has taken over large swaths of Iraq in recent months, told Christians in the Iraqi city of Mosul they had to convert to Islam by July 18 or they would be killed, according to the Economist. The only other option they were given was to leave Mosul, a city which has had a Christian presence for nearly two millennia. So thousands of Christians have now fled the city in fear for their lives.

"It is genocide. It meets the test of genocide," Wolf said Friday on Hugh Hewitt's radio show, which this writer guest hosted. "The definition of genocide was put together by the UN by a guy named Raphael Lemkin. But it is the eradication of a group of people – race, culture, ethnicity, religion. So this meets the official test of genocide."
"

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 04:10 PM

But it is the eradication of a group of people – race, culture, ethnicity, religion. So this meets the official test of genocide."
"

A group of people like the Palestinians, perhaps?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 04:23 PM

"A group of people like the Palestinians, perhaps?"

You really are a fucking antisemite aren't you Greg?
Israel treats its Palestinian citizens better than any of it's neighbouring Muslim countries do. They themselves say that. They also say that they prefer living in Israel, where they have equal rights as citizens, than in any Muslim country. Palestinian majority villages and towns refuse to become incorporated in the West Bank in a land exchange proposal. Your attempt to demonize Israel with your vicious lies makes you an antisemite.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 04:29 PM

It is all tied together, no tail wagging the dog here. When Israel fights with its next door neighbors it stirs up the anger of the entire region. When Israel picks on Palestinians regional factions look around to see who they can attack as a counter measure. One assumes any jews still in Iraq are buried deep and out of sight, or more likely, left. That makes christians and minority sect muslim residents next in the picking off pecking order.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 04:31 PM

A spot of a difficulty, linguistically.

When an individual Moslem (or a specific group of Moslems) does something that accords with the stereotypical views held by the usual suspects about Moslems, then the usual suspects complain that nothing is done about it because of political correctness.

But when an individual Jew (or a specific group of Jews) does something that accords with a stereotypical view of Jews, then the SAME group of usual suspects cry "antisemite" if the actions of that or those Jews are criticised.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 04:47 PM

bobad people can be opposed to what Israel does as a nation, what the Israeli government does as a body, and even opposed to what individual jewish individuals do in the name of their religion (such as kidnapping and killing children or building more settlements) without being an anti-semite.

When your case (the one you, bobad, make against others here at mudcat) is so poor that the only answer you have in a dispute is to call the other party names, then you have no argument. Ad hominem attacks mean you're trying to distract by appealing to unrelated arguments (does calling someone "antisemite" mean they have to stop the first discussion and go on the defensive regarding their own attitudes towards jews? No. It doesn't.)

If the only card you have to play is name calling, your argument is bankrupt. Check and mate.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 05:11 PM

So, SRS, do you accept the European Union Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia (EUMC) definition of antisemitism or do you have your own definition? When I say someone is an antisemite I am calling them on the criteria as stated in the definition. You may call it name calling but I call it as it is. I've got your number.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 05:15 PM

And I'm going to call them on it every time they do it whether you like it or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 05:25 PM

Thank you, SRS. Nicely and succinctly stated.

Certain ranting hate-mongers on this forum have been throwing this idiotic "anti-Semite" bullshit around for an eternity. It doesn't improve over time.

Best,

Greg

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 05:28 PM

Hey, Boo- it was ranting nonsence when you posted it once - posting it twice doesn't make it any better.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 05:58 PM

And it doesn't change the fact that you are defined by the words you use.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 07:13 PM

No one in their right might would accept that document that you claim has such gravitas, bobad. And the Israelis who foist it upon others are over-representing what it is about.

You have to hunt to find criticisms of that group ("European Union Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia"), but they're out there. The "definition" you clutch to your breast is a document written by a hyper-Israeli special interest group that is not the policy accepted by the European Union (though the name would suggest this illustrates a rhetorical category of false advertising).   

The story of the EU Monitoring Centre's 2005 draft working definition of anti-Semitism, a text so enthusiastically pushed by Israel advocates in California and beyond, is not well known — but it is illuminating.

Central to the emergence of the draft working definition was Ken Stern, anti-Semitism specialist at the American Jewish Committee. According to Stern, he developed the text "along with other experts during the second half of 2004"; his version is largely identical to the one published by the EU Monitoring Centre the following year ("Proposal for a redefinition of antisemitism," the Stephen Roth Institute, July 2005).

There are two other key figures in the backstory to the initiative. Ken Stern has credited Dina Porat, then head of the Stephen Roth Institute for the Study of Contemporary Anti-Semitism and Racism at Tel Aviv University, for having "first articulated" the idea "for a common definition" ("The Working Definition - A Reappraisal," Tel Aviv University, July 2011 [PDF]).

The other key figure is the American Jewish Committee's Andrew Baker who, according to Stern, had "smartly developed a working relationship" with the EU Monitoring Centre's then director Beate Winkler. Winkler was invited to address the AJC annual meeting in Washington in May 2004, where she told delegates that "the demonization of Israel and the denial of its right to exist are clearly anti-Semitic in our view" ("Confronting Anti-Semitism, Mobilizing Governments," AJC, 9 May 2004).

According to former Director of the Institute for Jewish Policy Research and author Antony Lerman, Baker had been in contact with Winkler following controversy about a 2003 report abandoned by the EU Monitoring Centre because of problems that included the definition of anti-Semitism used ("EU Accused of Burying Report on Antisemitism Pointing to Muslim Role," Forward, 28 November 2003).

Baker proposed to Winkler "that she move quickly to convene a meeting of [Jewish leaders, activists and researchers]" to draft a satisfactory definition of anti-Semitism ("The Farcical Attack on the UCU For Voting Against Use of the EUMC 'Working Definition' of Antisemitism,'" antonylerman.com, 2 June 2011).

In Lerman's account, "[Baker] knew that those invited to the meeting would need to be broadly sympathetic to the concept of the 'new anti-Semitism' and … he was able to determine who attended."

Written by special hand-picked zealots, how could it work out any differently? And by the way, the group is no longer called EUMC. Based in Vienna, the center has subsequently been renamed the Fundamental Rights Agency. When you quote their dogma, be sure you name the group correctly.

Since its publication, the definition has been repeatedly cited by pro-Israel advocacy groups to attack Palestine solidarity activism, and used — in the words of Ken Stern himself, in the aforementioned Kantor Center's conference program — "with the subtlety of a mallet."

Israel lobbyists have often misrepresented the nature of the text and its contents. The Anti-Defamation League's Richard Barton, an author of the University of California "campus climate" report, has tried to convey the impression that the draft text has an official status by calling it the EU's definition of anti-Semitism ("Protests must not stray into anti-Semitism," San Francisco Chronicle, 23 August 2012).

A working group on "combating Anti-Semitism" at the Israeli government's 2009 Global Forum gathering, chaired by the Community Security Trust's Michael Whine, described the draft definition as "the European Union's own definition of anti-Semitism."

The definition has been invoked in a number of cases in bids to muzzle Palestine solidarity activism and speech, particularly on campus. Israeli Apartheid Week, an annual series of awareness-raising activities in universities throughout the world, has been singled out for special attention. (emphasis mine)

Those paragraphs are filled with links. Go read the article and follow some of them.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 07:17 PM

Ah, but SRS: some people are not in their right minds. As for reading the article & following the links, little to no hope

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 07:20 PM

"And the Israelis who foist it upon others are over-representing what it is about."


I stopped reading at this point. Like I said I've got your number.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 07:24 PM

Your blinders are held in place with a vise, bobad. It's cutting off the blood supply to your brain.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 07:53 PM

The thread topic is the Caliphate SRS, do you have anything to say about that or are you only fixated on Israel?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 07:56 PM

"Death to the Jews" chanted the crowd waving the black flags of the Islamic State, or ISIS as it used to be known. They were looking for new supporters for their cause, the creation of a worldwide caliphate answering to the man who now calls himself Ibrahim: a zealot too radical even for Al Qaeda who has stormed through Syria and Iraq carrying out mass executions, crucifying rivals, beheading enemies. But these marchers were not in Syria or Iraq; they were in The Hague in The Netherlands. And their message was one tailored to the disaffected young descendants of Muslim immigrants in Europe."

ISIS's Black Flags Are Flying in Europe

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 08:00 PM

"Horrifying footage has emerged showing Sunni insurgents of the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (Isis) beheading a police officer.

In a shocking piece of footage - too graphic to publish - fighters are seen knocking on the door of a Sunni police major in the dead of night before they blindfold and cuff him.

They then carve off his head with a knife in his own bedroom as religious hymns are played in the background.

After the decapitation, the militants took a picture of the officer's head and posted it on Twitter with the comment: "This is our ball. It's made of skin #WorldCup."


The Huffington Post UK

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 08:06 PM

I added content for the stray reader who wishes to do further reading, to be given access to balanced views, and to think globally. Clearly you are set in your ways and I don't know why you bother to participate in these threads that must dismay you no end.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 08:19 PM

I have previously pointed out that the most superficial reading of the DRAFT definition that Poo-bad so loves shows it to be arrant nonsense that simply fails, as a definition, to define at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 08:21 PM

PS. Nobody denies that antisemites do exist. Trying to expand the definition so that in effect it means "anyone I say is an antisemite is an antisemite" actually hinders attempts to reduce discrimination.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 08:26 PM

That is your opinion and, as the saying goes, opinions are like assholes (arseholes to you) everybody has one. From what I gather most of the civilized world accepts the EUMC criteria. The Jew haters of the world obviously do not.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 09:12 PM

From what I gather most of the civilized world accepts the EUMC criteria.

From what you gather FROM WHERE? Your own asshole? Or from other hate-mongering fanatics like yourself?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 09:16 PM

By the way, Boo, the thread topic is the Caliphate. Do you have anything to say about that or are you only fixated on Israel?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 10:26 PM

Feeding the aims of the caliphate, Israel is creating a "buffer zone" in Gaza, 40 percent of the territory, confining an already over-crowded populace that includes one million refugees into an even narrower strip.
Bombing hospitals and civilian housing, killing over 1000 Palestinians (only a handful of Israelis killed in return), is turning world opinion against Israel and feeding extremists.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 01:34 AM

Whatever the rights & wrongs of the authenticity & objectivity of the EUMC/Fundamental Rights Agency definition, my confidence in which I must admit somewhat shaken by SRS's post above, it is surely idle to deny that antisemitism, as even Richard appears above to agree, does nowadays frequently masquerade as legitimate criticism of Israel (for which there is indeed plenty of room with much of their current MO, a great disappointment to those who have striven for its existence and always wished it well, as I have frequently posted). So, absent confidence in EUMC/FRA Report, has anyone any suggestion as to how to distinguish proper criticism of Israel's conduct from disguised antisemitism?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 03:32 AM

MtheGM, you surely can read more accurately than that. I neither said nor implied that antisemitism (which does exist) "does frequently masquerade as legitimate criticism of Israel".

The difficulty (in the abstract) of defining antisemitism lies, it seems to me, of distinguishing prejudice on the one hand from learning by experience on the other.

The point is important because of the root meaning of the word "prejudice". It implies pre-judgment.   

This may perhaps be compared to pre-judgments of other kinds. If it is wrong to state of imply that Jews are likely to have characteristic X then it is equally wrong to state or imply that Palestinians are likely to have characteristic Y. The issue becomes more complex when on speaks of religions. To be Jewish may mean two things, and they are not the same. It may mean simply that one is born of a Jewish mother (it is, culturally, matrilineal) or it may mean that one adheres to Judaism as a religion. Only the latter is a matter of choice. When speaking, however, of Muslims there is as far as I know no requirement of birth of a particular lineage.

Over to anyone who wants to discuss the issue rationally (preferably with relation to the probability and consequences of establishment of a Caliphate).

But before I go, one last comment at Poo-bad. FFS, man, go and READ the definition you love so much. Can you not see that it is a muddle, a mess, and fundamentally short on objectively establishable application? Surely you can do better than Goofball (is it Goofball I am thinking of?) and the laughable attempts to bring US medical care within a particular definition of genocide. Read teh words and think about them.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 04:02 AM

Meanwhile, The UN not only tells Israel to stop but asks The USA to stop vetoing the implementation of the sanctions catered for in the many resolutions against Israel.

Of course, Israel responds by stating the sanctions don't technically exist because of the US veto on implementation. Some people see this as mealy mouthed but you can see why they do it. Fools such as the supporters of aggression on this and similar threads fall for it and smugly decry The UN.

One nice thing about democracy is that such idiots don't count. There is enough intelligence in a civilised voting country such as The UK or Canada to moderate such scum.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 04:02 AM

Richard, you were quick to accuse me of Islamophobia, just because I have criticised Islamist extremists.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 05:19 AM

Apologies, Richard, if I misattributed a previous post to you. But I think the points I made in my last post still apply, and I should be glad if anyone could attempt an answer to the question I put:-

In absence of confidence in EUMC/FRA Report, has anyone any suggestion as to how to distinguish proper criticism of Israel's conduct from disguised antisemitism?

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 05:34 AM

Simple.

Decent people don't confuse the two, as anti semitism isn't intended. it takes malicious intent to confuse the two.

Thanks for reading this.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 06:41 AM

"Meanwhile, The UN not only tells Israel to stop but asks The USA to stop vetoing the implementation of the sanctions catered for in the many resolutions against Israel." - Musket

But not a word from the UN to Russia or China relating to vetos (Actual or threatened) regarding the current genocide in Syria

Since 1965 to 2013 (48 years) according to Monty G. Marshall - Major Episodes of Political Violence 1946-2012. SystemicPeace.org. "Ethnic War with Arab Palestinians / PLO 1965-2013". Updated 12 June 2013 21,500 Palestinians have been killed in various Israeli/Palestinian conflicts.

Since the 15th March 2011 in Syria on the other hand over 251,000 have been killed, perhaps if they were being killed by the IDF the pain and suffering in Syria would be ended that much more rapidly Musket?

As for this bit of nonsense:

"The UN not only tells Israel to stop but asks The USA to stop vetoing the implementation of the sanctions catered for in the many resolutions against Israel"

Ehmmmm Musket it is the resolution that is vetoed not the implementation of it. If the resolution is vetoed it no longer exists, i.e. there is no longer a resolution to implement.

Second time you have tried to push this complete and utter load of bollocks - didn't pass the first time - ain't passing on the second.

By the way who speaking for the UN told the United States of America when and when it could not use its veto powers? Don't sweat too much on that, I am not really expecting an answer.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 07:44 AM

No Keith, a key difference is that pretty well the only thing you do is to find things to criticise about aspects of Islam. That readily enables the inference of hostility that (as MtheGM says - nice to agree with him for once) may be a factor in differentiation of criticism of Israel or of Zionism from criticism of Jews as such.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 07:52 AM

The inference is wrong.
I may have criticised Islamism, but I have never, ever, criticised any aspect of Islam or any other religion.

I do not even post much about Islamism. My contribution to such threads is mostly refuting accusations of prejudice like this one from you.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 08:23 AM

Keep it up Terribleus. There are a few fools who may get taken on by it. The advertisers who prop up newspapers rely on idiots such as yourself.

Just think, commerce needs you, even if common decency doesn't.

Try telling Keith. He may even refer to as eminent when quoting you.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 08:39 AM

While Richard Bridge may not accept the EUMC's definitions, for his own reasons, the following bodies do not share his opinion:

    The State Department report on Global Antisemitism in 2008 included the following: The EUMC's working definition provides a useful framework for identifying and understanding the problem and is adopted for the purposes of this report

    The Working Definition of Antisemitism was cited by the US State Department's Special Envoy to Monitor and Combat Anti-Semitism in testimony given to the Commission on Security and Cooperation in Europe (in Helsinki) in 2011, and is currently endorsed on the State Department's 'Monitoring and Combating Antisemitism' page.

    The Working Definition of Antisemitism was endorsed by the London Declaration of the Inter Parliamentary Coalition for Combating Antisemitism in 2009.

    In 2010, the UK All-Party Inquiry into antisemitism recommended that the Working Definition of Antisemitism should be adopted and promoted by the Government and law enforcement agencies.

    The UK National Union of Students renewed their support for the Working Definition of Antisemitism in 2013.

    An official document published by the OSCE's Office for Democratic Institutions and Human Rights (ODIHR) recommends the Working Definition of Antisemitism as a valuable hate crime data collection tool for law enforcement agencies, and for educators.

    The OSCE Parliamentary Assembly has formally recognized the Working Definition of Antisemitism.

    The Inter-parliamentary Coalition for Combating Antisemitism (ICCA) which took place in Ottawa in November, 2010, attended by Parliamentarians and experts from over 50 countries around the globe reaffirmed the EUMC's working definition of Antisemitism.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 09:03 AM

Ah so you still cannot refute anything stated so far Musket. Why not just say so?

So no-one speaking on behalf of the UN told the United States of America when it could and when it could not use its veto powers? And any resolution once vetoed is dead.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 10:10 AM

Poo-bad - just read it. It's arrant nonsense. Oh, silly me, you don't care about that do you?

And while we are on the subject of Islam.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/malaysia/10995961/Commonwealth-Games-Scottie-dogs-disrespectful-to-Muslims.html

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 10:16 AM

http://islam.about.com/od/islamsays/a/Dogs-In-Islam.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 10:23 AM

Here is that "working definition" .

It does not take a doctorate in philosophy or law to see that some bits of it are manifest nonsense to the extent that it would be sensible to consider them self-serving nonsense.

Quote begins: -

Working definition: "Antisemitism is a certain perception of Jews, which may be expressed as hatred toward Jews. Rhetorical and physical manifestations of antisemitism are directed toward Jewish or non-Jewish individuals and/or their property, toward Jewish community institutions and religious facilities."
In addition, such manifestations could also target the state of Israel, conceived as a Jewish collectivity. Antisemitism frequently charges Jews with conspiring to harm humanity, and it is often used to blame Jews for "why things go wrong." It is expressed in speech, writing, visual forms and action, and employs sinister stereotypes and negative character traits.
Contemporary examples of antisemitism in public life, the media, schools, the workplace, and in the religious sphere could, taking into account the overall context, include, but are not limited to:
Calling for, aiding, or justifying the killing or harming of Jews in the name of a radical ideology or an extremist view of religion.
Making mendacious, dehumanizing, demonizing, or stereotypical allegations about Jews as such or the power of Jews as collective — such as, especially but not exclusively, the myth about a world Jewish conspiracy or of Jews controlling the media, economy, government or other societal institutions.
Accusing Jews as a people of being responsible for real or imagined wrongdoing committed by a single Jewish person or group, or even for acts committed by non-Jews.
Denying the fact, scope, mechanisms (e.g. gas chambers) or intentionality of the genocide of the Jewish people at the hands of National Socialist Germany and its supporters and accomplices during World War II (the Holocaust).
Accusing the Jews as a people, or Israel as a state, of inventing or exaggerating the Holocaust.
Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations.
Examples of the ways in which antisemitism manifests itself with regard to the State of Israel taking into account the overall context could include:
Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor.
Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation.
Using the symbols and images associated with classic antisemitism (e.g., claims of Jews killing Jesus or blood libel) to characterize Israel or Israelis.
Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.
Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel.
However, criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic.
Antisemitic acts are criminal when they are so defined by law (for example, denial of the Holocaust or distribution of antisemitic materials in some countries).
Criminal acts are antisemitic when the targets of attacks, whether they are people or property – such as buildings, schools, places of worship and cemeteries – are selected because they are, or are perceived to be, Jewish or linked to Jews.
Antisemitic discrimination is the denial to Jews of opportunities or services available to others and is illegal in many countries.

Quote ends.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 10:43 AM

"Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation.
"


I can see why Musket and his fellow stooges would object to THIS.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 12:34 PM

The disgrace is that you are helping to kill far more Palestinian children by attacking Israeli actions in your support of Hamas than I am in supporting those actions against Hamas.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 12:40 PM

Musket,you can not answer, so you revert to abuse.
You have nothing else to contribute.
Your ignorance of relevant facts has been exposed yet again.

At least your posturing buffoonery gives some amusement in an otherwise bleak and depressing discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 12:41 PM

"No,I object to shallow idiots such as you having the oxygen of publicity."

I am SURE that you continue to support the Hamas stated goal of killing ALL Jews, but the vast majority of us will not permit you and those you support to remove our oxygen or our lives.

I note that you cannot even make a contribution to this thread about Iraq and the ISIS Caliphate .

You seem only capable of attacking Israel, and those who support it. No comments at all about the Mosque ISIS destroyed, the rumors of Female general mutilation, the driving out of Iraqi Christians- No, YOU are concerned about people calling you anti-Semitic for your ( BY EU DEFINITION) Anti-Semetic posts.


You and Greggie deserve each other, that is for sure.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 12:44 PM

"The terrorist group the Islamic State, an al Qaida off shoot that has taken over large swaths of Iraq in recent months, told Christians in the Iraqi city of Mosul they had to convert to Islam by July 18 or they would be killed, according to the Economist. The only other option they were given was to leave Mosul, a city which has had a Christian presence for nearly two millennia. So thousands of Christians have now fled the city in fear for their lives.

"It is genocide. It meets the test of genocide," Wolf said Friday on Hugh Hewitt's radio show, which this writer guest hosted. "The definition of genocide was put together by the UN by a guy named Raphael Lemkin. But it is the eradication of a group of people – race, culture, ethnicity, religion. So this meets the official test of genocide."
"


But Musket has nothing to say- After all, it is just a bunch of Arabs- Not like HE considers them as humans being (UNLESS they were being killed, or driven out by Israelis- THEN he would be telling us all how evil it was).

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 12:53 PM

Hoped for but unlikely- a trial for war crimes directed against Ibrahim and Netanyahoo.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 10:01 PM

Not current but still perhaps pertinent: - http://www.salon.com/2011/12/06/an_ambassador_smeared/

I would point out that the quote from BB at 1048 mudcat time is precisely the bit that exonerates Mither. When the world's fourth largest military power, with probably the world's fourth greatest potential for "surgical precision" kills more women and children than combatants, and pretends that combatants in possibly the world's most densely populated area (into which ghetto that power forced the people of those combatants) are hiding behind human shields, one can only be aghast at the inhumanity and indeed the bullying. To say that one is so aghast is precisely to hold Israel to the standards of civilised nations.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 10:03 PM

Meanwhile, back with the caliphate, is anyone (other than Isis) defending the horrors perpetrated by Isis? Is it not the case that moderate Muslims are condemning them?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 11:28 PM

Richard Bridge: 29 Jul 14 - 10:23 AM

As I do not have either a doctorate in law or philosophy (nor any for that matter), and as this is not a Jewish or Israeli document--it has been posted on the 'Cat several times, perhaps you would be so kind as to tell which we should consider 'manifest nonsense' or 'self-serving nonsense.'

http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/156684.pdf
http://www.antisem.org/archive/ottawa-protocol-on-combating-antisemitism/

______________________________________________________________________

SRS

The fact that Jewish/Israeli groups or persons may helped draft the document does not prima facie invalidate it. Jews and Israelis did not pass the resolution; governments or their committees did were signatories. Finally, interested parties (unions, chambers of commerce, ethnic and racial associations, gender groups) often take part, even lead, in drafting laws and resolutions which affect them, so why should not pro-Jewish groups?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Jul 14 - 01:29 AM

Musket:

Awww diddums, can't find anything to say so the dummy gets spat out of the stroller for the umpteenth time on the umpteenth thread?

With regard to frequency as far as lying, twisting and shouting down you mate take the biscuit, the only problem is, you aren't very good at it - i.e. You keep getting caught out at it.

You are Sir a complete and utter waste of space.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 30 Jul 14 - 03:34 AM

Braidedbeardedbruce still keeps saying I support Hamas.

I rest my case.

Perhaps I struck a nerve when enquiring of his sexual deviancy?

I wouldn't bother visiting Palestine if I were him. Israeli militants are doing their damnedest to make sure there are no small boys left.




Keep sneering Keith. Your agenda was sussed ages ago. All you do now is prove it. Do you like your new friends? Do you have to shower after supporting their odious apologising for terrorists? Or do you merely pray for them? Any chance of praying for the huge number of innocent people their heroes "legally" murder?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jul 14 - 04:11 AM

kills more women and children than combatants,

I question that Richard.
On previous incursions we were told that and it proved untrue.
If it is true that there are many more male than female casualties it suggests that combatant deaths are being counted as civilian.
Also, fighters in their late teens are possibly being counted as children.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Jul 14 - 04:12 AM

Ian....you really need to get over your problems.

On several threads, you have made unsupported personal slurs on the sexual behaviour of other members, when your ignorance and lies have been exposed. Remember your snide remarks concerning "operation yew tree"?
Adding to Teribus's list, you are an absolute disgrace, not for your infantile views, but for your tactics.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jul 14 - 04:15 AM

Keep sneering Keith.

Yes.
Every time you make stuff up , or show your ignorance, or revert to abuse instead of argument, expect a sneer.

Any chance of praying for the huge number of innocent people their heroes "legally" murder?

I do not accept "murder" but I do pray for all the victims, and for peace.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jul 14 - 04:41 AM

Richard, Time magazine yesterday.

"Fatality figures provided by Hamas and other groups should be viewed with suspicion. Not only do Israeli figures cast doubt on claims that the vast majority of fatalities are non-combatants, but a careful review of Palestinian sources also raises doubts.

Analyses of the casualties listed in the daily reports published by the Palestinian Center for Human Rights, a Gaza-based organization operating under Hamas rule, indicate that young males ages 17 to 30 make up a large portion of the fatalities, and a particularly noticeable spike occurs between males ages 21 to 27, a pattern consistent with the age distribution typically found among combatants and military conscripts. Palestinian sources attempt to conceal this discrepancy with their public message by labeling most of these young men as civilians. Only a minority is identified as members of armed groups. As a result, the PCHR calculates civilian fatalities at 82% as of July 26. PCHR provides the most detailed casualty reports of the various Palestinian agencies from Gaza that provide figures to the media and to international organizations like the UN. Its figures closely match those of the Hamas-run Gazan Health Ministry and other groups.

We have seen this before. A similar dispute over casualty figures occurred during Israel's "Operation Cast Lead" in the Gaza Strip in January 2009. The Israelis contended that the majority of the fatalities were combatants; the Palestinians claimed they were civilians. The media and international organizations tended to side with the Palestinians. The UN's own investigatory commission headed by Richard Goldstone, which produced the Goldstone Report, cited PCHR's figures along with other Palestinian groups providing similar figures. Over a year later, after the news media had moved on, Hamas Interior Minister Fathi Hammad enumerated Hamas fatalities at 600 to 700, a figure close to the Israeli estimate of 709 and about three times higher than the figure of 236 combatants provided by PCHR in 2009 and cited in the Goldstone Report. "
http://time.com/3035937/gaza-israel-hamas-palestinian-casualties/

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 30 Jul 14 - 05:11 AM

If it isn't murder, then what is it?

Eh?

By the way, the worm asks why I mention sexual deviancy of others. When they accuse me of wicked things with no foundation, such as supporting Hamas, I remind them of what an awful slur without foundation means. If you haven't worked that out, I'd get back to my arse fixation if I were you. And on that, you provide the evidence loud and proud.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 Jul 14 - 07:48 AM

Musket,

YOU repeat the lies that Hamas makes.

YOU have been informed of the falsehood of the Hamas statements, yet you continue to repeat them. You make no effort to verify your lies, or present any evidence, yet expect us to accept the Hamas Propaganda "since you heard it on BBC".

YOU HAVE BEEN GIVING SUPPORT TO A TERRORIST ORGANIZATION, KNOWINGLY, AND ARE ENCOURAGING THEIR WAR CRIMES WITH THAT SUPPORT.


Now STOP presuming that the rest of us have YOUR sexual preferences.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 Jul 14 - 07:50 AM

AND you STILL have not made a valid contribution to THIS thread ABOUT THE CALIPHATE.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jul 14 - 08:35 AM

Murder is a deliberate.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 Jul 14 - 09:44 AM

Like putting civilians in an area where you are storing and launching rockets, as Hamas has done.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Jul 14 - 09:55 AM

Ian.... Your remarks were a deliberate smear against Bruce and several other members.

I disagree with Israeli tactics in Gaza, but I also think that there should be a permanent homeland for Israelis AND Palestinians, radical Islamists do not. Bruce made a point which you decided to answer with a deliberate personal smear.

Adherence to strict ideology causes loss of reason, you appear
to have lost the ability to reason, when confronted by uncomfortable truths on many different issues, you resort to personal abuse.

The last refuge of a scoundrel....or a fool.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 Jul 14 - 01:06 PM

"Mark Levin interviewed the son of the founder of Hamas, Mosab Hassan Yousef, tonight on his show to get more insight into the terrorist group that runs the Gaza Strip.

Yousef made it crystal clear that Hamas doesn't just want to destroy the state of Israel, but wants a global caliphate on every inch of land around the world, and he said they will kill as many palestinians as they need to accomplish this goal."

href="http://therightscoop.com/awesome-mark-levin-interviews-son-of-hamas-founder-mosab-hassan-yousef-who-says-israel-is-fighting-for-">http://therightscoop.com/awesome-mark-levin-interviews-son-of-hamas-founder-mosab-hassan-yousef-who-says-israel-is-fighting-for-

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Donuel
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 03:22 AM

tHIS WAR CAN ONLY GET WORSE BEFORE IT GETS HORRIBLY UNIMAGINABLY WORSE.


god damn fucking religions!
god damn weapons.
god damn vengeance.
god damn RELGIOUS states AND nationalistic certainty.
Damn man for evoking god as their justification for war or jihad.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 03:58 AM

There are several Middle East wars, all but one nothing to do with Israel.

"The Britain-based Syrian Observatory for Human Rights said about 1,240 soldiers and other Assad loyalists have been killed in the past 10 days in northern Syria.
(TEN DAYS!)

They are among more than 1,800 people killed in the same period — a record number of deaths since the uprising against Assad began in March 2011, according to Rami Abdurrahman, the Observatory's director.

Other activists in Syria confirmed that past weeks have seen a record death toll. Syria's three-year civil war has already killed more than 170,000 people, nearly a third of them civilians, according to activists."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/28/syria-death-toll_n_5626482.html
(2 days ago)

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 06:47 AM

Some extracts from an article by Melanie Phillips in this week's Spectator ~~ posted simultaneously on the 'Small Hope' & 'Caliphate' threads:

Every time Israel takes military action to prevent further Palestinian attacks, it is falsely presented as the aggressive persecutor of the innocent.
Unless British Jews join this demonisation, they are deemed complicit with Israel's 'war crimes'. As a result, attacks on British Jews always spike during Israel's wars. So much for the supposed distinction between anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism. [MGM's emphasis]
Anti-Semitism singles out Jews for treatment applied to no other people: the application of double standards, false claims they are committing crimes of which they are instead the victims, and demonic conspiratorial powers. This is precisely the treatment applied to Israel.
But then the left marches side by side with Islamists, who are committed to the persecution of gays and women, while it boycotts Israel, the only place in the Middle East where Muslims enjoy human rights.

I am aware that some, whom I shall not name but we all know who, will denounce this as the ravings of a well-known, & hence ignorable, right-orientated journo; & [probably not in as many words, but implied nonetheless] a fucking yiddie bitch at that.

But some of the human beings who occasionally visit this forum might find some food for a bit of thought.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 07:17 AM

Beardedbruce said I repeat what Hamas say.

Considering I have no idea what they say in the context he states and considering unlike him I don't give credence to those who use terrorism to achieve their ends....

That makes beardedbruce a liar who slurs others because he has no argument to make.



Michael. If an "Islamist" states that he likes to watch cricket, then in the words of Melanie Phillips, on that subject I march side by side with an Islamist.

Denouncing Israeli occupation, internment and murder of the Palestinian people in Gaza isnt marching with any religion inspired philosophy, its being human and being shocked by criminality and pogroms.

And that is morality, real morality. Fuck all to do with mealy mouthed religion.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 07:21 AM

What she actually said, "But then the left marches side by side with Islamists, who are committed to the persecution of gays and women, while it boycotts Israel, the only place in the Middle East where Muslims enjoy human rights."

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 08:25 AM

" a fucking yiddie bitch at that."
A despicable statement even by your standards

As I said earlier - anti-Semitism is the domain of the right - you qualify with honours
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 08:37 AM

Advanced Point-Missing

Final

And the Gold Medal goes to ~~~

yes, folks, let's hear it yet again for

                            J·i·m C·a·r·r·o·l·l

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 08:52 AM

It's intentional.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 12:30 PM

The Caliphate has destroyed the tomb of Younis (Jonah) and the mosque near Mosul.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 03:01 PM

yes, folks, let's hear it yet again for J·i·m C·a·r·r·o·l·l
And the prize for not committing himself and letting others do the dirty work for him by sticking their necks out goes to -- Lenny the Lion Myer.

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 07:39 AM

So. Jimmy Boy,

YOU approve of the destruction of Mosques and holy sites as long as it is done by Muslims?

There is a HISTORY of Islamists destroying holy sites- Throughout the world. Yet it MUST be Israel's fault, right??? If Israel would just go away, the poor misunderstood extremist Muslims would live in peace and happiness ( right after they declare their world-wide Caliphate and kill all the leftists that are supporting them here, and all the Muslim moderates that keep quiet for fear of being targeted).

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 08:35 AM

"YOU approve of the destruction of Mosques and holy sites as long as it is done by Muslim"
Nope - nor do I approve of the destruction of hospitals school and homes, as done on a massive scale by the Israelis (especially as most of them were occupied when they were destroyed)
What's your point - are you asking which of these do I feel to be most important?
"There is a HISTORY of Islamists destroying holy sites"
There is a history of all religions and nationalities destroying, desecrating and looting the sites of religions they don't approve of - ever been to The British Museum?
The British Empire systematically destroyed hundreds of religions in their crusade 'civilise the world and turn "the savage hand from error's chain".   
You are not seriously suggesting that Islam is the only religion intolerant of other religions, are you.....?
Not even you would be that thick, O Bearded One!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 09:31 AM

No, Jim. But name any of the others in which it is, NOW, {not any time in the past, but NOW, today, this very minute), a capital offence anywhere in the world to convert to one of the others.

Go on. Just one?...

Thought not...

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 10:01 AM

"No, Jim. But name any of the others in which it is, NOW"
At the present time Islam is in the ascendancy and the fanatics are able to do anything they wish.
Christianity, when it was a power to be reckoned with, did as they wished.
When the Americans were in Iraq they were part of the looting and destruction of religious artifacts that took place in places such as Baghdad museum and art gallery.
On numerous occasions American troops deliberately set out to offend Muslims by destroying their holy books
They destroyed shrine and temple in Cambodia when they were there.
Buddhists have recently destroyed holy places in South East Asia.
Religions attempt to wipe out other religions   
Singling out one religion and ignoring the record of our native religions seems to be what you do.
Personally, they are all one to me - I have no religion and I can't think of a church, as a body, I would give my vote to - but I detest the idea that any religion should be used to sow dissension among people - they all do it or allow it to happen- one is no better than the other.
JIm Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 10:10 AM

No -- I think that sort of relativism is just plain silly.

They are all disagreeable and stupid and foolish and censorious indeed. But it is no sort of either sense or logic to go from there to the position that one cannot regard any of them as worse, as more disagreeable &........, than any of the others. IMO Islam is more mischievous, both in its beliefs and teachings and in its resultant actions, than any other I can think of at the present time.

YMMV, naturally, as is your right. But if I were you I shouldn't strike too many attitudes of moral virtue about it.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 10:15 AM

...not while they're so busy smashing women's heads in with rocks & caning young girls' bare bottoms publicly and cutting people's heads off so regularly...

And you know that is what happens - NOW - in Saudi & Yemen & Malaysia & N Nigeria, and don't pretend you don't, and don't pretend you think anything comparable is going on in the rest of the world...

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 11:14 AM

"I shouldn't strike too many attitudes of moral virtue about it."
I don't - as I've said before, I've always found it far easier to discuss my non-religion with ordinary practicing Muslims I've met than I have with practicing Christians - more tolerant by far.
Most of the Jews I knew were either lapsed or atheist, so I can't comment.
It's not Muslims, or Christians or Jews or whoever, I have a problem with - just their organisations.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 11:40 AM

'Organisations' are not abstract concepts. PEOPLE run them! It's people who stone those women & cane those girls & behead those men. If it was just organisations they wouldn't end up so dead or sore.

,..,

"Videos circulated of 50 soldiers' heads stuck on poles at Raqqa in Syria by troops acting for Isis, which now calls itself the Islamic State". Spectator Portrait of the Week

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 12:34 PM

"Organisations' are not abstract concepts. PEOPLE run them"
Not individually, they don't - its when they form themselves into a church they become a problem - I can honestly say I have never met a Muslim who I would have thought would advocate stoning anybody or carrying out female genital mutilation....
I've read about them though, just as I've read about Christians who march about in pointy white hoods carrying burning crosses and advocate stringing up "niggers", especially those who step out of line in regard to white women.
Modern laws have made much of this a thing of the past, but that doesn't mean the will has gone away.
Some of the atrocities carried out in Apartheid South Africa in the name of Christianity with the blessing of the Dutch Reform Church doesn't bear a re-visit.
I wouldn't particularly like to be a Muslim in today's Israel, particularly right at this present moment.
You can point to religious extremism in any society and pull out excesses in behaviour.
Isis is, of course, a fair point, but it is very much a case of peoples trying to break with the old ways and failing - for all sorts of reasons.
Much of the modern-day rise of religious extremism in the Middle East and Africa is a direct product oil wars, searches for W.M.D., selecting friendly fundamentalists rather that hostile secular governments, arms sales..... business and politics; as that nice Mr Cable said, "We sometimes sell arms to states with dubious human rights records".
It will be interesting to see, if Assad finally wins out in Syria, whether he will once again become a close ally of Britain, as he was when he was only filling his torture chambers with opponents where the world couldn't see.
Little of this has to do with real religion; rather, it's about religion being used for political or economic ends - when it comes to it, people are people everywhere.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 12:46 PM

"Isis is, of course, a fair point, but it is very much a case of peoples trying to break with the old ways and failing"
.,.

If only, Jim. Tell that to the widows of the previous owners of those 50 heads I mentioned last post...

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 01:10 PM

Christians who march about in pointy white hoods carrying burning crosses and advocate stringing up "niggers", especially those who step out of line in regard to white women.
Modern laws have made much of this a thing of the past, but that doesn't mean the will has gone away.
Some of the atrocities carried out in Apartheid South Africa in the name of Christianity with the blessing of the Dutch Reform Church doesn't bear a re-visit.
.,,.
Quite, Jim. As you quite fairly point out, although all that was too recent for comfort, it is all in the past.

Isis isn't. Those heads on poles are probably still there -- now, at this very moment...

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 01:25 PM

"Tell that to the widows of the previous owners of those 50 heads I mentioned last post.."
Oh dear - using the dead as a platform again Mike.
Isis got where it was today largely for the reasons I described.
The responsibility certainly lies with Isis extremism but the fact that they are were they are is the responsibility of oil thirsty nations who cynically created the conditions for their proliferation
States like Bahrain have appalling human rights records - The Arab Spring had barely got going when Cameron was falling on his arse to sell them weapons.
Both sides of the Libyan conflict were killing each other using British artillery.
It seems that Islamism is far less of a worry where commerce is concerned.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 01:44 PM

Jim, you do repeat your argumentative effects to the point [or pointlessness] of tedium. It doesn't enhance your points, you know.

What, eg, is all this constant whitter about my 'using the dead as a platform'? If we are in a discussion where people's deaths are an issue, then what in hell's name effect is that particular constant meaningless accusation supposed to compass? You are really doing your disputative repute no good with these incessant non-point attacks!

Or can you find some way of explaining this point so that we shall all have some idea what you are on about, with your 'platforms'?

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 02:15 PM

"If we are in a discussion where people's deaths are an issue, then what in hell's name effect is that particular constant meaningless accusation"
You appear to be making the point that none of what I have said makes any difference to the fact that people are being killed - you did it presistently with the soldier who was murdered in Woolwich.
I really am with you as far as Isis is concerned, but I have little doubt that, should the opportunity present itself, they would be as likely customers for the British Arms Industry as was Assad.
Sorry if I have got you wrong
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 02:22 PM

Still don't quite see what you mean about "using as a platform". If your are, as you say, stressing that people are being killed, than I am not going to post about cute puppy-dogs or the landscape of the Lake District, am I? But what is this 'platform' that you keep going on about?

Genuinely puzzled as to what you mean by the term..

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 03:16 PM

"You appear to be making the point that none of what I have said makes any difference to the fact that people are being killed"
.,,.

... and here's another bit I can make nor heads nor tails of, Jim. What "difference to the fact that people are being killed" does anything you say make, do you think?

Puzzleder & puzzleder...

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 03:50 PM

"Genuinely puzzled as to what you mean by the term.."
Sorry - not explaining myself.
I'm the first one to use human suffering as an argument, but I try to do so while at the same time, suggesting a reason and maybe a solution.
For me, the deaths tang place are due to religious extremism being used fr political purposes - presenting them in response to a specific opinion as if they contradicted that opinion.
You may disagree with that opinion, if so, show where I am wrong - despite our differences, I do try to understand your point of view.
Simply relying on the feelings of the widows of those whose heads ended up on spike is more likely to produce more heads on spikes rather than an understanding of how they got there in the first place.
Again - sorry if I have missed your point - it really wasn't intentional.
Must go - haven't seen 'The Big Country' for forty years!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 04:13 PM

Hope you enjoyed The Big Country. I once interviewed Burl Ives for The Guardian. Very charming man he was too; but had one of those never-out-of-hearing wives sitting in on the interview. An interesting thing, in retro, was that Colin Irwin & I met him in his suite at the Grand Hotel, Brighton, during the 1st Brighton Folk Festival of 1977; we all know what happened there 7 years later...

I am sure we both regard deaths as a result of ideological/political differences as a misfortune. Seems to me that both trying to find solutions to the differences sufficient at least to avoid future deaths resulting, and considering what the effect on the survivors might be, are different aspects of the topic worth exploring; neither in any way that I can see preventing proper consideration of the other. I don't see why you think favouring one above the other to be mounting any sort of unworthy 'platform', which I now take to be your point?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 04:22 PM

... also, BTW, later wrote one of Burl's Guardian obituaries: they ran two side-by-side, mine on him as a folksinger, the other on his films. I remember he said to me that he reckoned he got by because actors thought he was a singer and singers thought he was an actor...

Nuff drift!

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 05:12 PM

Brilliant! The Kurds can kick some serious jihadi butt. I hope they forge an alliance with Israel soon.

Peshmerga Forces Kill 20 Militants, Capture 30 West of Mosul

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Aug 14 - 03:32 AM

"I don't see why you think favouring one above the other to be mounting any sort of unworthy 'platform', which I now take to be your point?"
I'm not sure our views differ too much on the rights and wrongs of what is happening in the Middle East - problem is that it's difficult to find out what they are when it is assumed that we take sides - I have been accused of doing so throughout these arguments - I really don't.
I don't want another religion-based Government, any more than I believe you don't, but I am appalled at the brutality of the situation, not only in the present bloodbath, but also in the every-day lives of the Gazans, particularly over the last near-decade.
Whoever broke the cease-fire, I have little doubt that I will open the newspaper later and read that an Israeli soldier has been kidnapped - with afterthought - I might be able to find how the estimates 60-odd dead and 200 injured Palestinians met their particular fates.
As far as I have been concerned, all the politicians in this mess can all go to their own chosen Hells in their own particular hands-carts, but the fact that an estimated 1,500 Palestinians have now died and none of these politicians seem to care too much about it, makes me angry.
I very much doubt if Hamas will be party to any permanent cease-fire that doesn't include the lifting of the blockade and the allowing of the lives of the Palestinians to return to some degree of normalcy.
I also doubt that the Israelis will sign anything that doesn't allow them to hold on to what they have and to continue to build new settlements - they made that clear during the last round of peace talks.
As far as I can see, the situation has to be put in the hands of the U.N. and any rights of veto that can impair a balanced solution need to be removed, otherwise the Palestinians are going to end up like the Native Americans, scattered all over the Middle East on reservations.
There are already calls for "the levelling of Gaza" if the soldier isn't returned, and from the beginning the Israeli extremists have been howling that the troops must "push on and finish the job now it's been started".
"Burl Ives"
Didn't get to watch the film after all - Library project; I recorded it and will do so later.
Wonder if you asked him about his giving evidence against Pete Seeger and the rest during the H.U.A.C. trials, when you interviewed him?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Aug 14 - 09:31 AM

No. It wasn't that sort of interview. It was Arts pages, not news or politics. So it would have been unprofessional, even if I had thought of it; which I don't think I did, concentrating as I was on the job I was being paid to do, which was asking him about singing.

Of course, I get the polemical point you are making, Jim; and no doubt it is fair enuff from your pov. But a bit below·the·belt IMO.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Aug 14 - 10:52 AM

No intentions of hitting you anywhere Mike - I'm a pacifist.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 02 Aug 14 - 05:30 PM

An astute observation from my friend Bruce Rosenberg:

"What do groups like ISIS and al-Qaeda and even Hamas want? They want to impose their religious views on the rest of humanity. They want to stifle every freedom that decent, educated, secular people care about. This is not a trivial difference. And yet judging from the level of condemnation that Israel now receives, you would think the difference ran the other way.

This kind of confusion puts all of us in danger. This is the great story of our time. For the rest of our lives, and the lives of our children, we are going to be confronted by people who don't want to live peacefully in a secular, pluralistic world, because they are desperate to get to Paradise, and they are willing to destroy the very possibility of human happiness along the way. The truth is, we are all living in Israel. It's just that some of us haven't realized it yet."

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Aug 14 - 07:21 AM

They want to impose their religious views on the rest of humanity. They want to stifle every freedom that decent, educated, secular people care about.

Lefty liberals should hate that and support opposition to it.
Yet they do not.

Meanwhile in the region, two Libyan cities are the scene of heavy fighting and Western embassy staff evacuated, violence and murder daily in our new caliphate, and the worst violence in the whole region, that in Syria, today spills over into Lebanon with many deaths.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 03 Aug 14 - 07:40 AM

I've just done a poll of 100 people.

50 think stifling freedom by imposing religious views on the rest of humanity is wrong. The other 50 were Christians.

100 of them couldn't say what a lefty liberal was.

100 of them felt that when a fool is ashamed of his earlier bloodthirsty support for Israeli terrorists, he tries to change the subject. Syria and Libya being two cited examples.

Next.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Aug 14 - 09:10 AM

This thread is not about Israel, and Christians like most Muslims are not committed to imposing their religion on others.

Why are you only interested in one of the Middle East conflicts?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Aug 14 - 09:36 AM

Quoth Poo-bad "What do groups like ISIS and al-Qaeda and even Hamas want? They want to impose their religious views on the rest of humanity. They want to stifle every freedom that decent, educated, secular people care about"

It is not too much of a leap to accept that of ISIS and Boko Haram. I think you should perhaps evidence the statement about al-Quaeda and Hamas. It seems to me that Hamas has a legitimate grievance that is not being addressed.

Here is a link some days old listing the Palestinian dead. How do people like Poo-bad know they were in Hamas? According to the "Time" magazine article linked to - because they were the right age. It's hard to see that as sufficient evidence to validate killing someone.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Aug 14 - 09:36 AM

Ooops, the link make your own blicky, http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/07/gaza-under-seige-naming-dead-2014710105846549528.html

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 03 Aug 14 - 09:38 AM

"It seems to me that Hamas has a legitimate grievance that is not being addressed."

And what would that be exactly?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Aug 14 - 09:58 AM

Many people have grievances.
Going to war is not the best way of addressing them.

If the casualties were "mostly civilians" you would expect a representative sample of the civilian population.
The large excess of young men requires an explanation.

Al Qaeda is committed to establishing a global caliphate.
That is the goal of Isalmism.
Hamas is itself an Islamist organisation.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 03 Aug 14 - 10:31 AM

Hamas is a political party with Christians and atheists in its number. It had control of the Palestinian army in the same way the conservative party has control of the British Army.

And what the flying fuck Al Qaeda is doing in your commentary on Palestine is beyond me. Yes, there must be many people in Hamas sympathetic to the aims of Al Qaeda (which does not wish for a global caliphate, prick) and that makes them dangerous in the same way gung ho foolish British military top brass occasionally need reining in by ministers and diplomats with vast greater grasp on issues. (The Alan Clark diaries were fascinating. He may have been a bit of a twat but his grasp of history and his contempt for chiefs of staff when a defence minister start making up for his occasional stupidity.)

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Aug 14 - 10:43 AM

Hamas does not have any Christian or atheist members.
You just made that up.
There is no Palestinian Army.
Hamas has its own fighters, who killed many non-Hamas Palestinians when they seized power.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 03 Aug 14 - 10:45 AM

"Hamas is a political party"

So was the Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei, abbreviated NSDAP), commonly known in English as the Nazi Party. Do you have a "thing" for them too?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Aug 14 - 10:52 AM

The son of a Hamas leader did become a Christian.

"Mr Yousef said that his doubts about Islam and Hamas crystallised when he realised not all Hamas leaders were like his father, a moderate who he describes as "open-minded, very humble and honest".

Mr Yousef said that he was appalled by the brutality of the movement, including the suicide bombers seeking glory through jihad.

"Hamas, they are using civilians' lives, they are using children, they are using the suffering of people every day to achieve their goals. And this is what I hate," he said. "
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/palestinianauthority/2613399/Mosab-Hassan-Yousef-son-of-Hamas-leader-becomes-a-Christian.html

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: pdq
Date: 03 Aug 14 - 11:52 AM

"The Muslim Brotherhood was founded in 1928 by Hassan al-Banna. The Muslim Brotherhood main branch, based in Egypt, has financed terrorist attacks worldwide that have killed Americans and others. The Brotherhood attacks Christians, women, and other religious minorities, in the name of Allah to fulfill al-Banna's vision of "fighting the unbelievers…to dismantle the power of the enemies of Islam." The methods al-Banna suggested to advance jihad included "beating them, plundering their wealth, destroying their places of worship, and smashing their idols." Al-Banna also said "it is the nature of Islam to dominate, not to be dominated" and to "impose its law on nations and to extend its power to the entire planet."

Hamas, of recent Gaza fame, self identifies as "one of the wings of the Muslim Brotherhood in Palestine" and was designated as a terrorist organization in 1995 by President Clinton. The Kuwaiti branch of the Muslim Brotherhood was designated as a terrorist organization by President Bush shortly after the September 11, 2001 attacks.

The 9/11 Commission reported that the Islamization of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, and 1993 World Trade Center bomber Ramzi Yousef, were during their membership in the Muslim Brotherhood.

Majid Al-Zindani, who worked for years with Osama Bin Laden, was designated as a terrorist by the United States in February 2004. Al-Zindani was not only a member but a leader in the Yemeni branch of the Brotherhood.

Mohammad Jamal Khalifa, who was Osama Bin Laden's brother in law, was a Muslim Brotherhood leader who supported the Islamic terrorists waging an insurgent campaign in the Philippines.

The Muslim Brotherhood has participated in "terror conferences" with groups such as Al-Qaeda, Iranian intelligence, Egyptian Islamic Jihad (led by current Al Qaeda leader Ayman Al-Zawahiri), Algerian GIA, Hamas (the Palestinian branch of the Muslim Brotherhood), Ennahdha (the Tunisian branch of the Muslim Brotherhood), and the Islamic Action Front (the Jordanian Branch of the Muslim Brotherhood)."

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Aug 14 - 02:31 PM

Hamas has a genuine grievance in that from the tiny area of the Levant occupied by Jews prior to 1948, and on the demands of Zionist terrorist organisations, whose leaders went on to become the leaders of Israel, first a large area of the Levant was designated as Israel, a Jewish state and thereafter its expansion has continued. Since 1948 Israel has by military conquest persistently enlarged. There is a land-grab going on in the area of the Levant. So that's the first thing, and it is undeniable. You may choose to argue that conquests were legitimate, that conquerors acquired extra land by peace treaty after conquest - but you cannot honestly argue that the amount of exclusively or substantially exclusively Jewish occupied land has vastly increased.   

Nobody has succeeded in defending the others whose land has been occupied and taken, whose crops have been destroyed, whose communities have been divided by an illegal wall, and who see town after town illegally built on illegally seized land on which those others used to live and farm. Those people have been squeezed into an ever smaller space, denied the liberty to trade, and suffered the destruction of their infrastructure schools and hospitals. Are you surprised that they and their democratically elected government, Hamas, are mightily pissed off?


None of the above excuses the war by Hamas on ordinary Gazans who (if reportage can be believed, it comes very largely from non-Gazan sources) are oppressed by a Taliiban-like regime. But it explains their fury against the expropriation of their land and destruction of their homelands.


Hassan al-Banna died in 1949. His views as to the purpose of the Muslim Brotherhood may well no longer be very relevant. The designation of Hamas as a terrorist organisation is wholly irrelevant to whether the objectives of Hamas include either the creation of a Caliphate in Gaza or a larger one outside it.


It may however be worth mentioning that an effort may be made to term Hamas "freedom fighters" in that they are seeking to liberate themselves from Israel, but it would not be possible to regard the pre-Israel Zionist terrorists as "freedom fighters". They sought not to liberate any land or people, but to establish their own control over the lands of others.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 03 Aug 14 - 02:43 PM

First Keith days I made things up. Then he googles and rather than apologising, he tries just qualifying it by admitting his mistake.

You couldn't make it up... (But he does...)

Poo Bad. Getting desperate aren't we? Hamas may be led by people as obnoxious and dangerous as Israel's militant tyrannical leaders, but like Israel's leaders, they "seized power" as Keith puts it in democratic elections.

Which is more than the German nazi party ever did, prick.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Aug 14 - 03:11 PM

Musket, you are such an ignorant buffoon!

You said, "Hamas is a political party with Christians and atheists in its number."

It is an Islamist group!
Atheists and other religions are not tolerated.

How can you have such strong views without knowing or understanding such basic facts?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 03 Aug 14 - 04:20 PM

It is a rather fascist but still political party of Palestine. What is known as Islamism purposely does not recognise national boundaries.

It's constitution is based on liberation from Israel for its interpretation of Palestine.

It recognises that Palestine is based on geographical not religious grounds, but accepts funding from Islamic sources, which skews matters.

However, it isn't difficult to read their constitution nor google the photo of one of their leaders during the January 2009 attacks by Israel, stood on Parliament Square with the late Tony Benn. Benn noting that the man is a coptic christian. Sure, a token but there again, unlike Keith I have never defended either set of terrorists. Just the Palestinian people.

Try again. People can find the reality, they don't have to accept propaganda.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 03 Aug 14 - 04:44 PM

" they "seized power" as Keith puts it in democratic elections."

Wrong...again for the thicker ones among us:

Hamas won a PLURALITY (not majority) in a LEGISLATIVE election in 2006. The directly elected President (in 2005) was (and remained) Abbas. The election results were 44% for Hamas and 41% for Fatah. After Hamas failed to form a government, about a year after the election, Hamas and Fatah reached a power-sharing unity government under the Mecca Agreement (brokered by the Saudis). Then in June of 2007 Hamas perpetrated a violent coup (throwing Fatah officials off roof-tops) and illegally seized all power. Only about 20% of the PA population supported this military takeover.

Does the fact that they eliminated the opposition and established totalitarian control remind you of anyone?....(Hint think Weimar Republic 1933)

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Aug 14 - 02:01 AM

Er - 44% as against 41%. That looks remarkably like an electoral win tome.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Aug 14 - 04:19 AM

Seem to remember Thatcher came to power on 42% of the vote - I doubt if little Booboo would have a great deal of argument with that - might be wrong though!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Aug 14 - 07:17 AM

Musket, Islamisation has moved on.
There are few Christians in the whole of Gaza now, and of course none in Hamas.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 04 Aug 14 - 08:02 AM

So you're perfectly alright with this part:

"Then in June of 2007 Hamas perpetrated a violent coup (throwing Fatah officials off roof-tops) and illegally seized all power. Only about 20% of the PA population supported this military takeover."

Doesn't surprise me in the least.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Aug 14 - 08:24 AM

It's an internal power struggle. I'm more bothered about the Taliban-like regime that Hamas promotes inside Gaza (although that is also disputed). And I'm far more bothered about the Israeli invasion and continuation of the Israeli land-grab.

There is a new battle going on - on Wikipedia - each side says that the other is editing Wikipedia to include propaganda. As Wikipedia currently stands: -

"The pro-Fatah view is, that it [the battle of Gaza 2007] was a plain military coup by Hamas. The pro-Hamas view is, that the US drew up a plan to arm Fatah cadres with the aim of forcefully removing Hamas from power in Gaza. According to the pro-Hamas view, Fatah fighters, led by commander Mohammed Dahlan with logistical support from the US Central Intelligence Agency, were planning to carry out a bloody coup against Hamas.[28] Then, Hamas pre-emptively took control over Gaza"

And "Human Rights Watch accused both sides of violating international humanitarian law, in some instances amounting to war crimes.[33] The accusations include targeting and killing civilians, public executions of political opponents and captives, throwing prisoners off high-rise apartment buildings"

And "Hamas militants seized several Fatah members and threw one of them, Mohammed Sweirki, an officer in the elite Palestinian Presidential Guard, off the top of the tallest building in Gaza, a 15-story apartment building. In retaliation, Fatah militants attacked and killed the imam of the city's Great Mosque, Mohammed al-Rifati. .... a Hamas militant was thrown off a 12-story building."

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Aug 14 - 10:06 AM

Ther ya go again, Boo - flinging that NAZI bullshit around. Really, don't you ever get tired of that same old crap?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 08:43 AM

"Iraq's Yazidi minority has fled from Islamic State fighters as the UN says 'a humanitarian tragedy' is unfolding in Sinjar."

Al Jazeera


Who gives a shit, there are no Jews involved.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 09:27 AM

I have an idea. The USA can take its aid from Israel and give it to the Yazidi.

I did however think we were all agreed that ISIS were uncivilised wankers - and the further they go the more Muslims say that ISIS in no way truly represents Islam (as neither does Boko Haram).   Or do you differ, Poo-bad?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 09:33 AM

How about Iran, Qatar and Turkey stop their aid to arming Hamas so that it can launch attacks against Israel. Maybe then the citizens of Gaza and Israel can enjoy a normal and peaceful life.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 11:13 AM

ISIS Gains First Ground in Lebanon
The Atlantic Wire By David Ludwig
17 hours ago

Militants associated with the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (ISIS) captured the Lebanese city of Arsal in fighting that began on Friday and continued Monday.

According to The Telegraph, a Syrian rebel group set up check-points in the border city but have not yet declared the area as part of the caliphate. In addition to 40,000 residents, there are roughly 120,000 refugees living in Arsal.

The conflict broke out after the Lebanese Army arrested Abu Ahmad al-Jumaa, a former commander in the Free Syrian Army who later declared allegiance to ISIS. Officials said they arrested Jumaa because he planned to attack an army outpost.

Since the Syrian Uprising began in 2011, an estimated one million refugees have crossed the nearly 250 mile border from Syria into Lebanon, a number expected to hit 1.5 million by the end of 2014 The United Nation's Refugee Agency predicts.

The Sunni insurgents said they will leave Arsal if the government releases Jumaa, something Lebanese Prime Minister Tammam Slama flatly rejected on Monday.

http://news.yahoo.com/isis-gains-first-ground-lebanon-214910243.html

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 11:22 AM

Nobody is attacking Israel because of its religion, Poo-bad. It's because of its invasion.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 11:32 AM

Iraq's jihadis have vowed to wipe out the Yazidis. Who are they?
The ancient religious group, concentrated in Iraq, have been targeted for extermination by the so-called 'Islamic State' that seized a number of towns along the Iraq-Syrian border this week.

Christian Science Monitor By Lydia Tomkiw
46 minutes ago

The arrival of the self-styled "Islamic State" (IS) in the northern Iraqi town of Sinjar over the weekend sent the native religious minority fleeing. Yazidis, labeled by IS (formerly the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant, ISIS) "devil worshippers," have a long history of persecution.

Forty Yazidi children were reported killed and reports of forced conversions and murders have now emerged. A Yazidi parliamentarian fleeing northern Iraq told the Washington Post, "In our history, we have suffered 72 massacres. We are worried Sinjar could be a 73rd."

The Sinjar area, near the border with Syria, is strategically important for IS, just 50 miles from Mosul. The United Nations has said close to 200,000 have fled the area, calling it a "humanitarian tragedy."

http://news.yahoo.com/iraqs-jihadis-vowed-wipe-yazidis-144449482.html

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 12:09 PM

BBC same story.

"The UN children's agency has expressed "extreme concern" over reports that 40 children from Iraq's Yazidi minority died after an offensive by jihadists.

Unicef says reports indicate the children died as a "direct consequence of violence, displacement and dehydration" over the past two days.

Thousands of Yazidis fled into the mountains after the Islamic State (IS) overran the town of Sinjar on Sunday.

Yazidis follow an ancient faith that jihadists condemn as devil worship.

"Families who fled the area are in immediate need of urgent assistance, including up to 25,000 children who are now stranded in mountains surrounding Sinjar and are in dire need of humanitarian aid, including drinking water and sanitation services," Unicef said.

BBC Arab affairs editor Sebastian Usher says the Unicef statement goes some way towards confirming some of the most disturbing reports coming out of the heartland of the Yazidi community.

Images posted on the internet showed small clusters of people gathered on the sides of a canyon in the Sinjar mountains.

There have been unconfirmed reports of massacres in Yazidi villages by the jihadists, our correspondent adds"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-28663926

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 12:11 PM

BBC on Lebanon.

"n the latest clash, gunmen opened fire on a bus carrying soldiers in the city of Tripoli, the army said.

Meanwhile on the border with Syria two Lebanese soldiers have reportedly been killed, as fighting with Syrian rebels continues for a fourth day.

A young girl has also been shot dead, after clashes spread.

The fighting on the border began on Saturday when Syrian rebels raided Arsal, a mainly Sunni Lebanese town.

The rebels objected to the detention by Lebanese forces of an alleged member of Syria's Islamist militant group al-Nusra Front.

At least 15 soldiers have been killed in the area since the weekend."

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 12:15 PM

BBC today on Syria

"More than 150,000 people have been killed in Syria and more than nine million have been forced to leave their homes since the uprising against Mr Assad began in March 2011.

In Iraq, jihadists attacked Kurdish forces in Zumar on Friday and fighting has continued since, with at least 14 Kurds and an unknown number of IS fighters killed.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 12:38 PM

Liya, Guardian.

"How Libya's freedom came undone could fill volumes. The short version is that the first democratically elected parliament, the General National Congress, rather than disband the militias, funded them, each faction seeing its own forces as insurance against those of everyone else.

An Islamist-led coalition came to dominate parliament, but as the squabbling grew worse it realised it would lose an election, so delayed having one. Then, in May, a former Gaddafi-era general turned rebel leader, Khalifa Hiftar, launched an offensive against Islamist brigades in the east while his allies stormed congress in Tripoli. An election was duly called in June, and the Islamists duly lost, or expect to lose when parliament assembles this week. The result has seen some of their militias grab what Tripoli real estate they can, triggering civil war."

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 01:31 PM

Iraq is asking its Air Force to assist the Kurds in fighting the Caliphate, which is adding to its territory. A evolving war that may involve the West again.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 01:50 PM

There have been unconfirmed reports of massacres in Yazidi villages by the jihadists, our correspondent adds.

Jawhar Ali Begg, a spokesman for the Yazidi community, said on Monday that after overrunning Sinjar, IS (formerly known as Isis) had given them an ultimatum to convert to Islam, pay a tax or face death.




There are estimated to be around 500,000 Yazidis worldwide, most living in Iraq's Nineveh plains
In August 2007 jihadists attacked Yazidi villages in Nineveh, killing between 400 and 700 people


400 to 700 out of 500,000-

Compared to 1,900 out of 1,800,000 Gazans- YET NO_ONE HERE CALLS IT GENOCIDE.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 04:40 PM

Oh, well, all those corpses are all right then, ain't they Bullshot? After all, they're just Palestinians and children into the bargain, not like they're real people, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 05:21 PM

So, are our customary Islamophobes conflating ISIS with Islam in general? It certainly looks like it.

And are those now bewailing the situation in Libya now regretting their former demonisation of Gaddafi (nasty nutjob though he was)?

And - er - Iraq?

Oh, and Syria.

Did anybody say "I told you so"?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 05:23 PM

No Richard .
Most Muslims have no truck with Islamism.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 03:09 AM

I recall being laughed at by saying it is too easy to purposely confuse Islamism with Islam if your intention is to discriminate against Muslims.

Then we see perfect examples of just that.

I wouldn't bother back pedalling if I were you Keith, the chain came off ages ago. Anyway, you seem to be comfortable and settled with your little friends. You seem to get on like a house on fire, which is ironic considering your support for firebombing houses in Gaza.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 03:36 AM

"Most Muslims have no truck with Islamism."
Too busy raping children because of their "implant", don't you think?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 04:20 AM

Steady chaps, It's nice that KtheA has gone that far. Let's hope he remembers the distinction next time he feels tempted to start tarring all Muslims with the same brush. We shall see.

In the meantime, the world perhaps makes progress towards reducing FGM. Adherents of a number of religions do practise it, but there are apparently comments in some of the hadith (although not the Koran) that advocate it, and geographically it is largely only found in places where Islam is also prevalent (and expatriot groups from the same places).

There is some dispute whether ISIS advocates it, but the Muslim Council of Great Britain condemns it as "unislamic" http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/jun/23/female-genital-mutilation-muslim-council-britain-unislamic-condemn

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 04:25 AM

It also seems that UK Muslim leaders condemn ISIL's attempts to establish a caliphate by force - http://www.islamonline.com/news/articles/2/UK-Muslim-Leaders-Condemn-Violent-ISIL.html

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 04:42 AM

next time he feels tempted to start tarring all Muslims with the same brush

I never have.
Why the need to lie about me?
Why can you not just address what i say instead of making up shit I would never say?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 04:47 AM

"Why the need to lie about me?"
"All Pakistanis Muslims are culturally implanted to have underage sex" - or some such words
Why do you lie about yourself?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 05:05 AM

No such words.
Why the need to lie about me?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 05:13 AM

As you know because I have reminded you many times, I stated clearly that I did not believe that issue was in any way releated to Islam or any other religion.

I just reported that British Pakistani people were blaming their culture.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 05:14 AM

Yeah, I remember him saying that too.

He also started a "Peoples' Popular Front of Judea" type argument to say the Muslim Council of Great Britain doesn't exist when I quoted something from a regional council of mosques that they endorsed.

It's easy to try and make people look idiots, as Keith shows, but it is difficult to succeed, as Keith shows.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 05:17 AM

No musket.
You provided a "quote" that Google could only find in your post, and you claimed it was from "The British Council of Mosques" which does not exist.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 07:20 AM

" I stated clearly that I did not believe that issue was in any way releated to Islam or any other religion."
"Don I do now believe that all male Pakistani Muslims have a culturally implanted tendency......" (context Muslim underage sex)
You referred to the Muslim culture and you have throughout - ie - all Muslims are the same - in your own words.
You have elevated gobshiteism to and artform
Stop buggering up this forum with your lies and obfuscations you twisted little toerag
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 07:28 AM

You referred to the Muslim culture

No I did not, and never have.

I stated repeatedly that them being Muslim was not an issue and religion played no part.
(As you know because you have been making the same false claims for over three years and had them refuted every time)

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jeri
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 07:54 AM

In the 'Muslim Prejudice' flame war, Keith wrote:

Don, no one on this thread has claimed any of those things.

Don I do now " believe that all male Pakistani Muslims have a culturally implanted tendency" but only because of the testimony of all those knowledgeable people, and always acknowledging that only a tiny minority succumb.

Do you dismiss all that just because it does not fit your preconceptions, or do you have some powerful evidence to the contrary that you have not shared with us?

Tell me this stupid bickering...well, this particular strain of stupid bickering, isn't all because of a typo...

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 08:30 AM

What typo?
Keith chose to include "all Pakistani Muslims" in his racist attack.
He said that the ones that were not involved "resisted their implant", putting all British Pakistani Muslims under suspicion (a potential enemy within, due to their culture - even worse)
Over and over again he has defended his statement by claiming "culture is all"
That it "tarring them all with the same brush" whatever colour you tar happens to be.
As far as I know, nobody has mentioned religion here other than Christian Keith, but he has made it clear throughout is Islamophobic attacks that it is all part of his holy war - defending his own (claimed) religion as being innocent of persecution, while at the same time attaching the belief of others.
This statement will be there to bite his bum every time he declares his own innocence and calls other people liars
It is fundamental race and cultural hate-mongering, such stuff are holocausts made of.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 08:35 AM

BEIRUT (Reuters) - The Lebanese army and Islamist militants clashed on Wednesday despite a 24-hour ceasefire agreed to end five days of fighting that has killed dozens of people in the most serious spillover of Syria's three-year civil war into Lebanon.

Saudi Arabian King Abdullah granted $1 billion to help the Lebanese army to bolster security as they battle militants who have seized the border town of Arsal on the Syrian frontier, state news agency SPA reported.

Machine gun fire and shelling broke out on Wednesday morning on the outskirts of the town in breach of the 24-hour ceasefire, which came into force at 7 p.m. (12 p.m. EDT) on Tuesday.

"The ceasefire is continuing, but we are responding to any violations," a security official said.

At least 17 soldiers have been killed and 22 are missing from the violence in and around Arsal. Preliminary reports from inside the town suggest dozens of people have been killed there.

Advancing Lebanese troops found the bodies of 50 gunmen on Monday, security sources said, while sources in the town report heavy casualties among its civilian population.

Arsal's mayor Ali Hujeiri, by phone, said the gunmen were on the outskirts of the town. "There was a ceasefire, but it is not being implemented," he said, adding that there appeared to be more militants in the area.

"The army is still there, the gunmen are still there, and the ones suffering are the civilians."

Arsal was the first stop for many civilians fleeing the bloodshed in Syria. Refugee camps in Arsal that provide shelter to tens of thousands of Syrians who fled the war have been badly damaged in the fighting, forcing them to seek shelter in the town itself, Syrian activists in the area have said.

http://news.yahoo.com/saudi-arabia-grants-lebanons-army-1-billion-aid-074214443.html

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 09:00 AM

So there we have a number of Muslim opponents to ISIS.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 09:14 AM

I would imagine all Shia Muslims oppose ISIS.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 09:14 AM

So there we have a number of Muslim opponents to ISIS

Yes ISIS are opponents of all Shia Muslims.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jeri
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 09:26 AM

Jim, duh. I keep forgetting what level of stupid a person has to be to keep wheedling on about this shit for-fucking-ever.

But obviously, if Keith is OK with it, it wasn't a typo.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 09:50 AM

Tell me this stupid bickering...isn't all because of a typo...>/I>

Nope. Its because of a particular fuckwitted individual.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 10:59 AM

"keep wheedling on about this shit for-fucking-ever."
Keith's 'implant' argument goes through his attitude to Muslims like "Blackpool goes through rock" as we say over here (don't know where you are Jeri).
It informs every statement he makes about Muslims and their culture.
Bringing it up whenever I do is nothing more than a reminder of that fact, though I admit it gives me a bit of a buzz to watch him deny it, then try to blame someone else for it, then finally acknowledge that it is still his opinion.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 12:13 PM

I have no "attitude to Muslims."
You just make this shit up.
There is no "Muslim culture" but many and various cultures from many and various regions of the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 12:28 PM

Up till last month, my appointments secretary was a male of Pakistani descent. He doesn't like his new boss and has asked me to supply a reference for a new job.

Keith, do you think I should warn prospective employers of his sexual tendencies? You being an expert on the bloke and all that?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 01:31 PM

Of course not Musket.
How stupid.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 04:43 PM

Kurdish members of Iraq's Yezidi religious minority in Sinjar are being massacred by ISIS if they refuse to convert to Islam. They're ancient fire-worshipers with roots in Zoroastrianism and they long predate the Koran.

More than 300 of them so far have been murdered for their religion alone.

Killings of this sort on a large scale are called genocide.

ISIS Exterminating Minorities in Iraq

No outrage here? Of course not, no Jews involved, silly me.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 05:05 PM

Where's the UN on this one?

BAGHDAD — Stranded on a barren mountaintop, thousands of minority Iraqis are faced with a bleak choice: descend and risk slaughter at the hands of the encircled Sunni extremists or sit tight and risk dying of thirst.

Humanitarian agencies said Tuesday that between 10,000 and 40,000 civilians remain trapped on Mount Sinjar since being driven out of surrounding villages and the town of Sinjar two days earlier. But the mountain that had looked like a refuge is becoming a graveyard for their children.

Iraqi Yazidis stranded on isolated mountaintop begin to die of thirst

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 06:01 PM

So who has the military power to affect that? World's policeman anyone?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 02:37 AM

I think that the last time anything like this was carried out was in 1991:

"Operation Safe Haven" was a British initiative, made at a time when the USA was fundamentally disinterested in any further taking of action in the Gulf. The British Prime Minister's lobbying of European colleagues achieved NATO support, leveraging the necessary American air support. Then as Saddam's retribution activities escalated, US ground and logistic support was also achieved. This was a distinctly British operation though, with a proposed force of 6000 personnel, spearheaded by 3 Commando Brigade, Royal Marines, with elements from the Army, RAF and other coalition members. It was deemed dramatically successful, even though it appeared to be risky given the climate of those times. Operation Safe Haven literally "invaded" Iraq. The Coalition's main task was to enter Northern Iraq {From Turkey}, clear the designated area of the Iraqi threat and establish a safe environment for the Kurd refugees to return to their homes. The mission was both a military one and humanitarian; once security had been established, with the US providing air support and specialist elements with other Coalition members, supply and rebuilding of infrastructure was then initiated. The ground mission within Iraq took 58 days to complete. Operation Safe Haven officially ended shortly after and the enforcement of the 'No Fly Zone' continued to ensure security in the region."

In Southern Iraq around the same time, where there was no international intervention, Saddam Hussein's forces killed over 200,000 Iraqi Shia Arabs in two months (That represents a greater loss of Iraqi lives than lives lost between 2003 and 2011), hundreds of thousands were displaced, ground water was poisoned and marshes drained - of course none of the DU ammunition fired from Saddam's Hind Helicopter gunships did any any damage and none of the environmentally "unfriendly" measures implemented by Saddam's regime had any effect on the population. As we all "know" on this forum only DU munitions fired by US or UK armed forces do any damage.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 04:27 AM

Doesn't seem very relevant to the present, though, as ISIS is not making its territorial gains through air power.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 04:33 AM

This genocidal atrocity dwarfs the Gaza situation but where is the outrage?

Guardian 3 hours ago,

"Tens of thousands of members of one of Iraq's oldest minorities have been stranded on a mountain in the country's north-west, facing slaughter at the hands of jihadists surrounding them below if they flee, or death by dehydration if they stay.

UN groups say at least 40,000 members of the Yazidi sect, many of them women and children, have taken refuge in nine locations on Mount Sinjar, a craggy, mile-high ridge identified in local legend as the final resting place of Noah's ark.

At least 130,000 more people, many from the Yazidi stronghold of Sinjar, have fled to Dohuk, in the Kurdish north, or to Irbil, where regional authorities have been struggling since June to deal with one of the biggest and most rapid refugee movements in decades.

Sinjar itself has been all but emptied of its 300,000 residents since jihadists stormed the city late on Saturday, but an estimated 25,000 people remain. "We are being told to convert or to lose our heads," said Khuldoon Atyas, who has stayed behind to guard his family's crops. "There is no one coming to help."

Another man, who is hiding in the mountains and identified himself as Nafi'ee, said: "Food is low, ammunition is low, and so is water. We have one piece of bread to share between 10 people. We have to walk 2km to get water."

"At least 500 Yazidis, including 40 children, have been killed in the past week, local officials say. Many more have received direct threats, either from the advancing militants or members of nearby Sunni communities allied with them. "They were our neighbours and now they are our killers," said Atyas.

"It's not like this is a one-off incident," said the Unicef spokeswoman Juliette Touma. "We are almost back to square zero in terms of the preparedness and the supplies. Enormous numbers of people have been crossing the border since June.

"The stresses are enormous; dehydration, fatigue, people sometimes having to walk for days. The impact on kids is very physical, let alone the psychological impact."

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 04:48 AM

Sigh..

The outrage concerning Gaza is the hitherto western propping up and support for Israeli terrorism.

Despite everything, despite your usual lack of intelligence in such matters, I really didn't think I'd have to spell it out.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 05:12 AM

No Musket.
You and the others just posted moral outrage at the degree of Palestinian suffering.
If there were any posts about "Western propping" they were very few indeed.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 05:39 AM

Outrage at the suffering and the evil of the perpetators defines your posts on Gaza.
Here is greater suffering and greater evil without any claim of self defence or fighters behind civilians.

This is just religious inspired hatred and intolerance and open genocide.

Why do you people always and only attack Israel?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 06:01 AM

"You just make this shit up."
No Keith - you say this shit - I cut and paste exactly what you say for you to deny, blame someone else for and finally reiterate.
You do possess some initiative - you've proved that by taking up cudgels of behalf of a terrorist state's having used illegal weapons of a civilian population - without them having denied it themselves
Now there's initiative for you - worth nine guineas an ounce, as they used to say.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 06:11 AM

"Doesn't seem very relevant to the present, though, as ISIS is not making its territorial gains through air power." - Richard Bridge

Sorry Richard I thought your concern was for those about to be butchered not exchange of real estate.

Relevance as I seem to have to spell out for you in the light of the question you originally asked is as follows:

In 1991 Saddam Hussein threatened and attempted to kill thousands of Iraqi Kurds in retribution in the immediate aftermath of his defeat Desert Storm - The UK from NATO bases inside Turkey mounted a land and air operation to prevent that.

Today ISIS forces threaten to kill 40,000 of Iraq's Kurdish Yezidi religious minority - You asked who could come to their aid - at least that is what I thought you were asking? Answer of course would be the Iraqi Armed Forces provided that waste of space Nouri Al-Maliki can get his act together.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 06:23 AM

"In one day, they killed more than two thousand Yazidi in Sinjar, and the whole world says, 'Save Gaza, save Gaza.'"

The poignant lament of an Iraqi named Karim, quoted in this short newyorker.com story, captures the helpless frustration of many minorities facing existential danger in areas controlled by ISIL, the terrorist group, while much of the world has been transfixed by the war between Israel and Hamas. While both Israelis and Palestinians have carelessly bandied about the word "genocide," it is a real threat for the communities in ISIL's crosshairs.

Genocide watch: the Iraqi communities most endangered by the rise of ISIL

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 06:34 AM

No Keith - you say this shit - I cut and paste exactly what you say

No I do not.
You make it up.
The only actual quote you ever do is that three year old post which you knowingly misinterpret.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 06:52 AM

You mistake the point Terribilis - whether knowingly or not I can only suspect. You posted some details of what I suspect you intended to illustrate a successful humanitarian military operation. But Iraq was decimating the Kurds through use of air power. The operation you describe sterilised that air power.

ISIS is not decimating (or worse) the Yazidi through air power but through land power.

So how do you think the Iraqi forces can resist that land power? The last rumble between Isis and them ended, did it not, with the Iraqi's abandoning their weapons and running away?   

Israel could be stopped by cutting off arms sales to it and cutting off the massive US subsidy.

Isis? Last I heard the assets they seized made them richer than the rest of Iraq. OK, maybe I exaggerate, but how far off is it?   They are apparently not susceptible to financial pressure, only military.


Similarly apparently Boko Haram outguns the Nigerian army (and like the Viet Cong hides in dense forest).



Oh, and finally - Israel may (although resistant) be susceptible to western outcries. ISIS or Boko Haram - you must be joking!

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 06:56 AM

"The only actual quote you ever do is that three year old post which you knowingly misinterpret."
No misinterpretation ever claimed - just blamed on somebody else then confirmed as your own
But will happily add "misinterpretation" to your list of excuses if you wish.
As for "lies" -name them
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 08:15 AM

" Iraq was decimating the Kurds through use of air power. The operation you describe sterilised that air power."

The Kurds were being attacked by both the Iraqi Air Force and by the Iraqi Army.

"ISIS is not decimating (or worse) the Yazidi through air power but through land power."

Ah so that's alright is it? They are not decimating those they have trapped they are intent on slaughtering every last one of them. Yet as others have said not one yelp of objection can be heard above the roar of "Save Gaza, save Gaza".

"So how do you think the Iraqi forces can resist that land power? The last rumble between Isis and them ended, did it not, with the Iraqi's abandoning their weapons and running away?"

The Iraqi Army and the Shia Militias will do it, might take time but they will do it. The last time? Well they were for the most part Police and Border Police Units with some Army units - I note the ISIS "drive" on Baghdad has halted? Changed their minds have they? Or has something else changed it for them?   

"Israel could be stopped by cutting off arms sales to it and cutting off the massive US subsidy."

Possibly could but we both know that that is not going to happen don't we?

"Isis? Last I heard the assets they seized made them richer than the rest of Iraq. OK, maybe I exaggerate, but how far off is it?   They are apparently not susceptible to financial pressure, only military."

And what good are those assets? Can they produce oil? Can they transport it to any loading terminal? Can they sell it? Rhetorical question Richard the answer to all is a big NO, so those assets are of no use to them whatsoever.

"Similarly apparently Boko Haram outguns the Nigerian army (and like the Viet Cong hides in dense forest)."

Early days yet for that bunch, but their time is coming, their métier is destruction - they have no future.

"Israel may (although resistant) be susceptible to western outcries. ISIS or Boko Haram - you must be joking!"

Israel when it comes to matters that impinge upon its sovereignty and upon its security is pretty much inured to the outcries of anyone else. They will remorselessly do whatever needs to be done - They showed that to be the case in 1967 in the face of what seemed invincible odds and they are perfectly capable of doing so again. ISIS or Boko Haram will collapse from within if left long enough to stew, they are essentially bandits and will ultimately be dealt with as such, neither would withstand any determined or prolonged assault.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 08:40 AM

I am now puzzled. You seem to say that the Iraqi forces and Shia militias can defeat ISIS and don't need outside help - yet you are bewailing the lack of outside help.

What do you want? Western forces to attack ISIS, or western forces to stay away?



In more detail - you admit that the Iraqis used air power against the Kurds, and above asserted that the Kurd were saved by a no-fly zone. But ISIS has (pretty much) no air capability. It might have captured some aircraft but it has very few if any pilots. So Western air power cannot save from ISIS (unless they attack ISIS directly).


I said "decimate or worse". Extermination is worse. So I was right in my formulation.   I nowhere said or implied that that was all right. My point was as above - that air power was an irrelevance.

You are wrong that there is no outcry. The Guardian is covering it.



In short you are simply saying "It's all right for Israel to be nasty because others are worse".    That's (a) pointless (b) silly.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 08:46 AM

"Israel when it comes to matters that impinge upon its sovereignty...."
That ends the political party broadcast on behalf of the Israeli Fascist regime.
Impinged on it's perceived sovereignty using every weapon in its considerable arsenal.
It has ruthlessly trampled on the sovereignty of others, butchering anybody stands in the way of their ambitions.
In six decades it has moved from representing the Jewish as the most persecuted on the planet to degrading them by claiming to be acting on their behalf.
The Israeli regime is succeeding where the Nazis failed.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 11:59 AM

Kirkuk (Iraq) (AFP) - Jihadists seized Iraq's largest Christian town and surrounding areas Thursday, sending tens of thousands of panicked residents fleeing in what is being called a humanitarian disaster, officials and witnesses said.

The onslaught saw the Sunni extremist Islamic State extend its writ over northern Iraq and move within striking distance of autonomous Kurdistan, in one of the most dramatic developments of the two month-old conflict.

IS militants moved into Qaraqosh and other towns overnight after the withdrawal of Kurdish peshmerga troops, who are stretched thin across several fronts, residents said.

"Qaraqosh, Tal Kayf, Bartella and Karamlesh have been emptied of their original population and are now under the control of the militants," Joseph Thomas, the Chaldean Catholic archbishop of Kirkuk and Sulaimaniyah, told AFP.

Entirely Christian Qaraqosh lies between Mosul, the jihadists' main hub in Iraq, and Arbil, the Kurdish region's capital. It usually has a population of around 50,000.

Tal Kayf, the home of a significant Christian community as well as members of the Shabak Shiite minority, also emptied overnight.

"Tal Kayf is now in the hands of the Islamic State. They faced no resistance and rolled in just after midnight," said Boutros Sargon, a resident who fled and was reached by phone in Arbil.

"I heard some gunshots last night and, when I looked outside, I saw a military convoy from the Islamic State... shouting 'Allahu Akbar' (God is greatest)."

Pope Francis urged the international community to protect Iraq's Christians, who have emigrated en masse over the past decade as a result of successive waves of violence.

Chaldean Patriarch Louis Sako, who heads Iraq's largest Christian denomination, said the overnight offensive had displaced 100,000 Christians.

"This is a humanitarian disaster. The churches are occupied, their crosses were taken down," he told AFP, adding that 1,500 manuscripts had been burnt.

AFP could not immediately verify the status of those towns, which witnesses said have been completely emptied of their residents.

The latest numbers dwarf the exodus sparked last month by an IS ultimatum to Mosul's Christians to convert to Islam, pay jizya (protection money) or leave on pain of death.

- Yazidis reach Turkey -

A peshmerga spokesman said Kurdish forces were battling the Islamic State in Qaraqosh and Al-Qosh further north, but no witnesses could corroborate that.

The spokesman also said the peshmerga were fighting in Gwer, a Kurdish community south of Qaraqosh.

The IS advance means jihadists are now within striking distance, in some areas barely 20 kilometres (12 miles), of the official border of the Kurdish region and 40 kilometres from Arbil.

The group launched a devastating offensive on June 9, seizing the country's second city Mosul the next day and sweeping across much of the Sunni heartland.

Peshmerga forces apparently redeployed to Arbil some of the forces they had assigned to the disputed land they grabbed from the government during the army's initial debacle.

They also beefed up security in Kirkuk, the most significant conquest they made during the June chaos, but the city was rocked by a car bomb Thursday.

The blast ripped through a Shiite mosque where displaced people had sought refuge, killing at least eight and wounding 47, police and medical sources said.

The experienced peshmerga were thought to be a sufficient bulwark against massive further advances by the jihadists, but IS fighters have been moving stealthily across the northern Nineveh province and making surprise gains.

At the weekend, IS units took over most of the Mosul hinterland which the peshmerga had occupied after government forces retreated in June.

Among its conquests was the Sinjar area, from which tens of thousands of civilians fled, including many families from the Yazidi minority who are still hiding in barren nearby mountains.

The Yazidis, and other local residents, have been stranded in the mountains since Saturday with little food and water.

View galleryIraqi displaced families, who fled violence in the …
Iraqi displaced families, who fled violence in the northern city of Tal Afar, gather at Khazer refug …
The leaders of the small minority, who practise a 4,000-year-old faith rooted in Zoroastrianism, have warned that their entire community risks being massacred or starved into extinction.

Turkish officials said hundreds of Yazidis had crossed into Turkey but did not specify how they got there.

Rights activist Ali al-Bayati told AFP around 1,500 people had reached Fishkhabur, near the spot where the borders of Iraq, Syria and Turkey meet.

IS, which proclaimed a "caliphate" straddling Syria and Iraq in late June, boasted of its latest victories.

"We are pleased to announce to the Islamic nation a new liberation in Nineveh province, teaching the secular Kurds a lesson," a statement said.

It denied reports that an unprecedented alliance of Kurdish fighters from Iraq, Syria and Turkey was clawing back lost territory around Sinjar and elsewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 12:05 PM

BAGHDAD (Reuters) - Kurdish forces attacked Islamic State fighters near the Kurdish regional capital of Arbil in northern Iraq on Wednesday in a change of tactics supported by the Iraqi central government to try to break the Islamists' momentum.

The attack 40 km (25 miles) southwest of Arbil came after the Sunni militants inflicted a humiliating defeat on the Kurds on Sunday with a rapid advance through three towns, prompting Iraq's prime minister to order his air force for the first time to back the Kurdish forces.

"We have changed our tactics from being defensive to being offensive. Now we are clashing with the Islamic State in Makhmur," said Jabbar Yawar, secretary-general of the ministry in charge of the Kurdish peshmerga fighters.

The location of the clashes puts the Islamic State fighters closer than they have ever been to the Kurdish semi-autonomous region since they swept through northern Iraq almost unopposed in June.

Shortly after that lightning advance, thousands of U.S.-trained Iraqi soldiers fled. Kurdish fighters, who boast of their battles against Saddam Hussein's forces, stepped in as did Iranian-trained Shi'ite militias.

But the Islamic State gunmen's defeat of the peshmerga, whose name means "those who confront death", has called into question their reputation as fearsome warriors.

The Islamic State poses the biggest threat to Iraq's security since the fall of Saddam Hussein in 2003.

The group, which believes Shi'ites are infidels who deserve to be killed, has won the support of some Sunnis who don't agree with their ideology but share a fierce determination to topple Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki.

Maliki, a Shi'ite, is seen as an authoritarian figure with a sectarian agenda whose alienation of Sunnis is destabilizing.

DARK DAYS

Iraq, an OPEC member, has returned to the dark days of 2006-2007 when a civil war peaked. Bombings, kidnappings and executions have again become part of daily life.

On Wednesday, 60 people were killed by an Iraqi government air strike on a Sharia court set up by Islamic State militants in a juvenile prison in Mosul, the office of Maliki's military spokesman said.

The Islamic State judge who ran the court, which routinely orders beheadings, was among those killed in the northern Iraqi city, the spokesman said.

Hospital officials and witnesses said earlier the strike killed 50 people in a prison set up by the Islamic State, making no mention of the court.

In Baghdad, car bombs exploded in crowded markets in several Shi'ite districts, killing 47 people, police said.

A roadside bomb killed three Shi'ites who volunteered to fight the Islamic State on a road between the town of Samarra and Mosul, a police official said.

In Taji, 20 km (12 miles) north of Baghdad, authorities found the bodies of six people who had been handcuffed and shot in the head and chest execution-style, medical sources said.

The Islamic State has declared a 'caliphate' in swathes of Iraq and Syria that it controls and threatens to march on Baghdad. Islamic State fighters and their Sunni militant and tribal allies also hold parts of western Iraq.

Maliki has ordered his air force to help the Kurds in their fight against the Islamic State, which seized an array of weapons including tanks and anti-aircraft guns from the Iraqi soldiers who fled in June.

Maliki was at odds with the Kurds over oil, budgets and land, but both sides put their differences aside, alarmed by the Islamic State's latest gains - a fifth oilfield and three more towns in the north. The group also reached Iraq's biggest dam.

Yawar confirmed the Kurds had re-established military cooperation with Baghdad.

"The peshmerga ministry sent a message to the Iraqi defense ministry requesting the convening of an urgent meeting on military cooperation. The joint committees have been reactivated," Yawar said by telephone.

MALIKI

Maliki, who has been serving in a caretaker capacity since an inconclusive election in April, has rejected calls by Kurds, Sunnis, some fellow Shi'ites and even regional power-broker Iran to step aside and make room for a less polarizing figure.

In his weekly televised address to the nation on Wednesday, he warned that any unconstitutional attempt to form a new government would open "the gates of hell" in Iraq.

Maliki rejected any outside interference in the process, an apparent reference to Tehran, which Iranian officials have said believes Maliki can no longer hold Iraq together.

Iran is now backing calls by Iraq's top cleric Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani for Maliki to go and is looking for an alternative leader to combat the Sunni Islamist insurgency, the Iranian officials said.

The United States, which was a key backer of Maliki when he first came to office as an unknown in 2006, has urged Iraqi politicians to form a more inclusive government that can unify Iraqis and take on the Islamic State.

The Islamic State has put Iraq's survival as a unified state in jeopardy.

The capture of one of the towns, Sinjar, home to many of Iraq's Yazidi minority sect in a weekend offensive could lead to a humanitarian crisis.

Yazidis, ethnic Kurds who follow an ancient religion derived from Zoroastrianism, are at high risk of being executed because the Islamic State militants view them as devil worshippers.

Yawar said 50,000 Yazidis now hiding on a mountain risked starving to death if they were not rescued within 24 hours.

"Urgent international action is needed to save them. Many of them, mainly the elderly, children and pregnant women, have (already) died," he said.

"We can't stop the Islamic State from attacking the people on the mountain because there is one paved road leading up to the mountain and it can be used by them. They (Islamic State fighters) are trying to get to that road."

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 12:07 PM

Kirkuk (Iraq) (AFP) - Iraqi government forces, Shiite militiamen and Kurdish troops launched a large operation Thursday to free Amerli, a Turkmen town that has been besieged by jihadists for 50 days, officials said.

"The Iraqi army, (Shiite) volunteers and (Kurdish) peshmerga, equipped with heavy artillery and backed by the air force, have launched an operation to break the siege of Amerli and clear the neighbouring town of Sulaiman Bek," the mayor of neighbouring Tuz Khurmatu, Shallal Abdul Baban, told AFP.

He said four Shiite militiamen and two Iraqi soldiers had already been killed in the offensive, which began before dawn.

Abdul Baban also said 39 other Iraqi troops and volunteers, as well as four peshmerga, were wounded.

A regional security official and a peshmerga source confirmed the information.

The anti-jihadist forces were said to be only three kilometres (two miles) from Amerli, a town of 20,000 mainly Shiite Turkmen that has been completely surrounded by Islamic State militants since June 18.

For weeks, residents had appealed for a military intervention and warned that food, medication and water were in short supply.

It was not immediately clear how close the pro-government forces were to breaking the siege imposed by jihadists who had been controlling all 34 villages around Amerli.

For weeks, government forces had remained south of Amerli, apparently unable to push any further, and peshmerga forces had maintained positions in Tuz Khurmatu, apparently unwilling to move.

The string of setbacks suffered by the peshmerga in recent days and the federal forces' inability to regain the ground it lost when IS launched its major offensive two months ago have led to mounting domestic and international pressure for Baghdad and the Kurds to set aside their differences and cooperate on the ground.

Iraq's Turkmen minority, of Turkic ethnicity, is one of the country's largest and lives exclusively in the north. It is mostly Sunni Muslim but its Shiite component has been systematically targeted by jihadists over the past two months.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 12:50 PM

France has called an emergency meeting of Security Council about Iraq.

Will there be any General Assembly resolutions denouncing Isis atrocities?
Of course not.
Like Mudcat they will be too busy just denouncing Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 12:55 PM

As for "lies" name them.

Here is your most recent on this thread Jim.
" you've proved that by taking up cudgels of behalf of a terrorist state's having used illegal weapons of a civilian population"

I have never defended the use of any weapons being used against civilians, nor the use of any illegal weapons at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 01:16 PM

WASHINGTON — President Obama is considering airstrikes or airdrops of food and medicine to address a humanitarian crisis among as many as 40,000 religious minorities in Iraq who have been dying of heat and thirst on a mountaintop after death threats from the Islamic State in Iraq and Syria, administration officials said on Thursday.

The president, in meetings with his national security team at the White House on Thursday morning, has been weighing a series of options ranging from dropping humanitarian supplies on Mount Sinjar to military strikes on the fighters from ISIS now at the base of the mountain, a senior administration official said.

"There could be a humanitarian catastrophe there," a second administration official said, adding that a decision from Mr. Obama was expected "imminently — this could be a fast-moving train."

The administration official said that "the president is weighing both passive and active options," defining passive action as dropping humanitarian supplies. He added, using an alternative name for ISIS, "More active, we could target the ISIL elements that are besieging the base of the mountain."

Mr. Obama made no mention of imminent military action as he traveled to Fort Belvoir in the Virginia suburbs on Thursday to sign legislation to overhaul the troubled Department of Veterans Affairs. Top officials were in the meantime gathering at the White House to discuss the possible Iraq action.

The administration had been delaying taking any military action against ISIS until there is a new Iraqi government. Both White House and Pentagon officials have said privately that the United States would not intervene militarily until Prime Minister Nuri Kamal al-Maliki stepped down.

But administration officials said on Thursday that the crisis on Mount Sinjar may be forcing their hand. About 40 children have already died from the heat and dehydration, according to Unicef, while as many as 40,000 people have been sheltering in the bare mountains without food, water or access to supplies.

The administration officials spoke on the condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to speak publicly. One official said that any military action would be "limited, specific and achievable," noting that Mr. Maliki's political party was supposed to announce a new candidate for prime minister on Thursday, but had not yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 01:16 PM

"I have never defended the use of any weapons being used against civilians, nor the use of any illegal weapons at all."
Yes you have Keith - you are the loudest and most persistent supporter of Israeli terrorism
You have denied the destruction of hospitals, then when your arguments were disproved, you justified these attacks because you claimed terrorists were hiding there - in other words, you have defended the slaughter of hostages (whether they were or not is immaterial)
You have denied the use of flechette weapons even though you were shown photographs of them.
You then went on to justify their use as being "legal" which they aren't when used on non-combatants.
all this on behalf of the Israelis, who have never denied their use and who have used them before
How far do you want me to go back Sabra/Shatila, selling chemicals to Assad, suggesting he be armed with riot control equipment i order to fill his torture chambers and gaols, condoning the asle of "a handful of sniper rifles(sic).... how long have you got?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 01:27 PM

Jimmy,

ANY civilians killed while being used as human shields are the responsibility OF THE PARTY USING THEM AS SHIELDS.


So either remember YOU are criticizing your friends in Hamas, or continue to lie about who is killing Palestinian civilians- Hamas, either by using them as shields, or by hitting them with anti-personnel rockets, or by shooting them in the back of the head.

"Hamas executions against its own people is back in the news.

Hamas has allegedly executed 20 Palestinians who participated in an anti-war protest in the Gaza Strip, according to Channel 10. The Palestinians allegedly were rounded up by Hamas and summarily executed as alleged Israeli collaborators.

There were also reports on July 28 that Hamas has allegedly executed 30 suspected collaborators so far, but it is not clear whether that number includes the 20 anti-war protestors.

Unnamed Palestinian security sources in Gaza told Palestine Press News Agency that Hamas has reportedly managed to apprehend dozens of suspected spies in the northern neighborhood of Shejaiya and summarily executed them after a short investigation. The sources allegedly said that many of the suspects were caught with weapons, telephones, and SIM cards from the Israeli cell provider Orange.

Hamas has undertaken numerous anti-collaboration campaigns in the Gaza Strip over the past few years, offering amnesty to repentant Israeli spies. In May, the Hamas government executed two condemned collaborators for divulging information that Israel used to kill two Palestinians.

In November 2012, Hamas men on motorcycles were filmed dragging the bodies of accused collaborators through the streets of Gaza.

Human Rights Watch and other watchdogs have condemned the summary execution of collaborators in Gaza."


But the stooges probably APPROVE of killing those that disagree with them.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 02:15 PM

BB - Is not what you say about ISIS not self contradictory. You complain that no-one criticises ISIS, then you produce swathes of press about the Isis crisis. You say that nobody is helping then produce details of a relief air-drop.

I asked you what could be done to STOP Isis - and you produce information that the US is ruling out military action and very ambivalent (at best) information about the land campaign.

You're starting to sound a bit like Akenhateon - everything is wrong but you cannot or will not specify what would be right.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 03:30 PM

Jim, same old false accusations.
No Keith - you say this shit - I cut and paste exactly what you say for you to deny
So, where is it?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 03:33 PM

"ANY civilians killed while being used as human shields are the responsibility OF THE PARTY USING THEM AS SHIELDS."
You mean all those Israli soldiers who sat children on their vehicles, or set up observer posts in Gazan homes (then shat in all the cooking utensils when they left - remember that one), or fired rockets from a kindergarten, o#r forced children to walk in front of them into suspected minefields all deserve to die.
Your opinion - not mine Pervy Brucie
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 03:37 PM

Richard, on BBC TV 6pm it got about one minute as the fifth item.
Gaza followed with another long report where Gazans vent their feelings and accusations against Israel with no reply.
BB had to search out coverage while Gaza has been wall to wall for weeks.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 03:40 PM

When did I say that Jim?
It is not opinion it is an explanation of international law.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 03:43 PM

That was a BB quote Jim!
No Keith - you say this shit - I cut and paste exactly what you say for you to deny
So, where is it?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 06:06 PM

The prevalence of warmongering in Israel - http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/06/gaza-israel-movement-that-dare-not-speak-its-name

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 07:01 PM

So what? Israel, unlike its neighbours, tolerates dissent. 95% of the population would disagree with Levy. How many Brits were supporters of Hitler?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 07:35 PM

What happened to R2P?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 09:15 PM

Good on the US but shame on Turkey, Iran, Saudi Arabia and Pakistan who have hundreds of aircraft and could easily have helped rescue the Christians, Shias and Yazidi Kurds, but chose not to.

President Obama approves humanitarian air drops in Northern Iraq

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 09:53 PM

Islam is not a religion of peace. The Islamic State is currently engaged in a campaign of genocide against the Yazidi minority in Iraq under the banner "there is no god but Allah."

Radical Islamist fighters captured the northern Iraqi town of Sinjar over the weekend, and in the process engaged in a campaign of unspeakable cruelty, butchering hundreds of Yazidi, and forcing tens of thousands of others to flee into the mountains in an attempt to escape the blood thirsty Muslims.

Yazidi men and boys were butchered in the streets, while the "women and girls are being used as concubines, and sold in the markets."

Secular Humanist

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 11:19 PM

Now that is blatant prejudice and should not be tolerated, Poo-bad. Your assertion "Islam is not a religion of peace" attributes the evils of ISIS to all Muslims. You put yourself beyond the pale.

Further, your attacks on Muslims - even if they were generically true - would be no reason not to criticise Israel for its inhumanity and land-grab of dubious legality or worse.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 01:27 AM

"I am now puzzled. You seem to say that the Iraqi forces and Shia militias can defeat ISIS and don't need outside help - yet you are bewailing the lack of outside help."

Ehmmmm no Richard, on the ground and in the air even with the tiny air force they have Iraqi forces and the Shia militias could defeat ISIS on their own but that would and will take time. But those under seige and threat of extermination from ISIS forces at present do not have that time so help from the International community is required - in short a humanitarian/military operation is required now, and the President of the United States has just announced that targeted airstrikes will now be made against ISIS as well as humanitarian relief flights to drop supplies of food water and medicine to those trapped in the mountains by ISIS.

>"In more detail - you admit that the Iraqis used air power against the Kurds, and above asserted that the Kurd were saved by a no-fly zone."

In 1991 the Kurds were not saved solely by the imposition of a "no-Fly Zone" - they were saved by physical intervention on the ground (Courtesy of 3 Commando Brigade Royal Marines) and British, US and French aircraft holding Saddam's air force off. Enforcing a "No Fly Zone" on its own over the Southern part of Iraq did not protect the Shia Arabs of Iraq as the Safwan ceasefire permitted Saddam to fly helicopters - supposedly for "humanitarian purposes" as bridges had been destroyed. Instead the helicopters flown were Mil-24 "Hind" Gunships and over 200,000 Iraqis died (Courtesy of Saddam Hussein).


"But ISIS has (pretty much) no air capability. It might have captured some aircraft but it has very few if any pilots. So Western air power cannot save from ISIS (unless they attack ISIS directly)."

Pssst Richard I think that that is precisely what is about to happen.


"I said "decimate or worse". Extermination is worse. So I was right in my formulation.   I nowhere said or implied that that was all right. My point was as above - that air power was an irrelevance."

No you did not say "decimate or worse" - you said "decimate (or worse)". Perhaps you should look up the literal meaning of the word "decimate", not the slack, inaccurate and idiotic way the word is used. As far as air power being irrelevant? ISIS is just about to find out exactly what air power when properly applied can do. All they have to do is review the coverage of airstrikes made on Saddam's forces during Desert Storm, or perhaps what happened to the Taliban in Afghanistan between October and December 2001 - perhaps we will have a "grainy photo" of ISIS leader Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi sat astride the pillion seat of a motor bike as he leaves Iraq for the "safety" of Syria.
   

"You are wrong that there is no outcry. The Guardian is covering it."

Oh WOW, that'll make all the difference then won't it - The Guinard FFS.

"In short you are simply saying "It's all right for Israel to be nasty because others are worse".    That's (a) pointless (b) silly.

Comparing apples to oranges Richard and you know it. Israel can be as nasty as it likes because it has been attacked and is defending itself against an enemy that has the full support of the people of Gaza and an enemy that has rejected any peace deal on offer and who has just refused to extend the current ceasefire. Whatever deaths and injuries caused in Gaza from this point forward are down to Hamas.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 02:58 AM

"It is not opinion it is an explanation of international law."
Do you not find that more than a little arrogant that you should take it upon yourself to explain anything to anybody - you are spectacularly ignorant of virtually everything you discuss - what makes you think you you are any more knowledgeable than anybody else here (we realise that we can't claim "infallibility", as you have on several occasions but we are capable of looking things up for ourselves")?
Your arrogance, combined with your ignorance makes you a very sad individual.
You have set out deliberately to offset, downgrade and deny the use of flechette weapons since it was first announced that they had been used.
You have been joined in that by your wannabe military moron friend.
It is no coincidence that you both did exactly the same when white phosphorus was used over Gaza - when you were show photographs of children with their faces burned to the bone by that shit, you passed it off as "harmless illuminations" - refusing to comment on the burned and permanently disfigured children.
Israel has now accepted that its use is illegal and declared that they would cease to do so, yet there are reports of it having been used again in the recent slaughter.
Your military nutcase, in his usual arrogantly sneery way, did the same thing with napalm and carcinogenic Agent Orange, both standbys of the United States in Vietnam and both used by Israel at one time or another against the Gazans and the Bedouins.
Terrytoon the Twat described 'Orange' as a harmless chemical spray, and in his inimitable way, refused to comment on the fact that U.S. pilots returned from Vietnam to find that they were displaying symptoms of cancer from coming into contact with this obscene weapon - we have graphic images of what it did to the Vietnamese people.
Harmless - legal - what kind of animals would even venture such arguments when this shit is used on human beings, particularly on non combatant men women and children,irrespective of their age, state of health or general situation?
You and he have made a point of displaying yourselves as exactly that sort of animal (the wrong word - animals don't behave in that despicable fashion).
As far as flechettes are concerned, don't you consider it a teensy-weensy bit grotesque that, given the fact that they have been a standard part of the Israeli arsenal for at least four years, that they are known to have been used by them in the past (according to the Israeli human rights group B'Tselem), and particularly that the Israeli's have never at any time denied their use - don't you find it disturbing that you should even bother to defend its use, downgrade it to "shrapnel", declare it "legal" or even question that it should have been used here by a regime that has seen fit to use tanks, bombs, heavy mortar-fire and all the means at their disposal to kill nearly two thousand human beings and reduce their homes, along with hospitals, schools and vital public facilities to rubble?
To a degree I understand Terrytoon - a frustrated wannabe warrior reduced to becoming a gun-nut happy to show us his penis-substitute 'weapon' on this forum and, no doubt, strutting his stuff with his mates nightly down the pub.
You claim to have been a teacher - is this what you taught your kids was right and wrong?
You say you are a "Christian" and proudly declare the you pray for us - is this your idea of Christianity?
Thank God I'm an atheist.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 03:05 AM

I know precisely what decimate means and the way I used it was perfectly accurate. You do not deserve rational discussion. Even you should know that, in war, the mere fact that one has been attacked (and you should realise that there are a number of grounds for saying that the "attacks" on Israel are justifiable self-defence) does not entitle one to be "as nasty as one likes".

So now that President Obama is considering military strikes against ISIS perhaps you will admit that the parallels with Korea and Vietnam are becoming more obvious. Perhaps now you will admit that you are wrong to say that no-one has noticed ISIS, and perhaps you will stop arguing that because people ought to condemn ISIS they should stop condemning Israel.

But I won't hold my breath.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 03:19 AM

"Terrytoon the Twat ... [with] his penis-substitute 'weapon'"

.,,.

You took some exception to my using the word of you once long since, IIRC, Jim; but if above formulations don't invite response in some such form as "Carroll the Cunt", then I'll take vanilla.

Pots'n'Kettles, Fair's Fair, 'n' all that jazz...

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 04:05 AM

"Even you should know that, in war, the mere fact that one has been attacked (and you should realise that there are a number of grounds for saying that the "attacks" on Israel are justifiable self-defence) does not entitle one to be "as nasty as one likes"." - Richard Bridge

You are obviously one of the fools that thinks that in war there are rules? If you were ever to find yourself in a situation where you are fighting for your very life then you appreciate one truth and the existence of only one rule - WIN.

Best put by Admiral Jackie Fisher in what he referred to as his 3 "R's" of war - Ruthless, Relentless, Remorseless.

Or - "The essence of war IS violence. Moderation in war is imbecility: Hit first; Hit hard; Keep on hitting."

By the way decimate does not mean extermination, it does even mean wipe out, to decimate means to reduce by one tenth.

In refusing to extend the ceasefire in Gaza, Hamas, in the eyes of the world have just thrown away any PR advantage they ever thought that they had won - they will be seen for exactly what they are.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 04:50 AM

"Decimate" originally meant "kill every 10th man"; done by Romans to subdue rebellious colonial elements, &c. But a word's original etymology doesn't always condition the way it becomes used, first perhaps idiomatically [perhaps due to misunderstanding or hyperbole], and eventually as standard., I should say that 'decimate' has probably just about past the idiomatic point of no return, and has acquired the meaning of "kill a great number of" as one of its possible standard usages, and it is in vain to go on being dogmatic about it.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 04:58 AM

You have set out deliberately to offset, downgrade and deny the use of flechette weapons since it was first announced that they had been used.

No Keith - you say this shit - I cut and paste exactly what you say for you to deny
So, where is it?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 05:04 AM

ISIS flag over London.
Guardian 1 hour ago.

"In a highly provocative gesture, the emblem was planted on top of the gates of the Will Crooks estate on Poplar High Street, and is surrounded by flags of Palestine and slogans.

The flag bears similar writing to the jihadi flags that have been flown by the extremist group in Iraq and other jihadi groups since the 1990s. When the estate was approached last night, a group of about 20 Asian youths swore at Guardian journalists and told them to leave the area immediately. One youth threatened to smash a camera.

When a passerby tried to take a picture of the flag on a phone, one of the gang asked him if he was Jewish. The passerby replied: "Would it make a difference?" The youth said: "Yes, it fucking would." Asked if the flag was an Isis flag, one local man said: "It is just the flag of Allah." But another man asked: "So what if it is?"

One local man said that the flag has been there for several days. "People were taking photos of it last night," he said. A Metropolitan police spokesman said on Thursday that they had received no complaints about offensive flags in the Tower Hamlets area. The Dutch government has banned the public display of the Isis flag, but it is not illegal in the UK."
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/07/flag-isis-jihadi-islamic-state-flown-poplar-east-london

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 05:17 AM

Ah but MGM-Lion they are not going to kill a great number they are going to kill them all (admittedly a great number if anyone wishes to be pedantic about it) so they are not going to be "decimated" they are going to be annihilated, or exterminated.

If people wish to use language incorrectly then that is up to them - but in the case of Richard Bridge I would have thought that someone trained in the law would know better.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 05:44 AM

Better than someone who read English at Cambridge & pursued a long joint career as teacher & journalist? Hmmmm!

Actually, I have remarked before that Richard obviously has certain knowledge & talents; but as to his views on semantics & linguistics, I wouldn't give you a dime a dozen for such...

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 05:50 AM

The American President has decided that ISIS is destabilising the region and has authorised action.

That shuts up (though they won't keep quiet) those who say nobody gives a shit about anything other than Israel bashing..

If a few people want to fly a flag, then getting upset about it furthers the cause they are duped into.

Same as if people want to defend Israeli aggression on Mudcat, it's a free country, do so. It isn't as if either are calling UK citizens second class.

Both stances are shunned by normal decent people though, as is their right too.




Am I dreaming, or did Poo Bad just say that Islam as a religion isn't peaceful? Well, no it isn't in the same way any other superstition is. Israeli terrorists hide behind the Jewish faith when it suits them, (even though many Jews oppose their aggression,) Christians try to colonise the world anyway, see US military for details, and the Caliphate scenario requires something that if it is the will of free choice would be a coincidence.

But to single out one superstition above others just shows the stupidity of otherwise intelligent people seeing imaginary friend nonsense to justify bigotry.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 05:57 AM

That shuts up (though they won't keep quiet) those who say nobody gives a shit about anything other than Israel bashing..

No.
US government was not accused of that.
Others were, and still are.
UN general assembly.
The liberal left, esp. on Mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 06:09 AM

"to single out one superstition above others just shows the stupidity of otherwise intelligent people seeing imaginary friend nonsense to justify bigotry."

.,,.

So to 'single out above the others' the only one whose 'bigotry' enjoins that they will judicially kill any of its members who change their mind and decide that another one might suit them better, as being even more mischievous and worthy of condemnation than any of the others, is 'stupidity', is it. I've heard of foolish relativism; but this is idiocy unworthy even of the egregious Mr Mouthie-Mather.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 06:09 AM

"So, where is it?"
Are you actually denying that you have claimed them to be "legal" when they are decidedly not when used indiscriminately in built-up ares, that they were probably from Hamas shells, that they are no different from shrapnel emitted from shells dating back to Napoleonic times, that there is no evidence of them having been used when photographs have been presented of spent ones and others embedded in walls.... all in the light of tha fact that Israel not only has them in their arsenal, has used them before and has not denied their use now
Then you add both stupidity and blatant dishonesty to your CV - they were there anyway.
You choose not to mention the other examples I gave of your despicable inhumanity - I assume you accept it without comment
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 06:15 AM

Can Mr Mouthie-Mather really not see that his relativistic foolishness is the equivalent of declaring that, as all illness is to be regretted, it will be 'stupidity' to be more worried about getting cancer than getting a cold?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 06:21 AM

NO WEAPON IS LEGAL " when used indiscriminately in built-up areas"!!!

(And I have never claimed they are.)

Flechette munitions ARE legal and ARE just a new kind of shrapnel.
Fact, not my opinion.

Same old false accusations.
" you've proved that by taking up cudgels of behalf of a terrorist state's having used illegal weapons of a civilian population"

I have never defended the use of any weapons being used against civilians, nor the use of any illegal weapons at all.

No Keith - you say this shit - I cut and paste exactly what you say for you to deny

So, where is it Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 08:11 AM

"And I have never claimed they are"
Yes you have - you made the point that they were "legal" after it had been pointed out to you that they had been used in built-up areas.
The obscene fact that they are legal in some circumstances has never been in question.
Your declaring they were, coupled with your comparing them to early nineteenth century and calling into question that they have ever been used or were the result of Hamas 'friendly fire' all constitutes support for their use.
Are you ever going to explain why you should adopt the role of spokesman for a terrorist state which has never suggested any of the above.
You are a fanatical Sickophant
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 08:22 AM

https://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=AqhTaNadeGV6H.zY6_ESqKKbvZx4?p=hamas+rockets+shrapnel&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF-8&fr=yfp-t-74

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 08:30 AM

Yes you have - you made the point that they were "legal" after it had been pointed out to you that they had been used in built-up areas.
The obscene fact that they are legal in some circumstances has never been in question.

I was correct then Jim.
They are not an illegal weapon, but it is illegal to use any weapons on civilians.

Your declaring they were, coupled with your comparing them to early nineteenth century
That is when shrapnel shells were first used.
Flechettes are just a new form of shrapnel.
Fact.

or were the result of Hamas 'friendly fire'
That was a reference to "nail shrapnel" reported in your link.
Nails are not used as shrapnel in commercially produced munitions, but Hamas have used them.

I have never defended the use of any weapons being used against civilians, nor the use of any illegal weapons at all.

No Keith - you say this shit - I cut and paste exactly what you say for you to deny

So, where is it Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 09:39 AM

"or were the result of Hamas 'friendly fire' all constitutes support for their use."

???? How does stating that HAMAS uses anti-personnel warheads, with enhanced shrapnel such as nails and ball bearings imply support for their use?


YOU have talked about massacres- Can we say that YOUR bringing them up implies that YOU support them?

Or is this ANOTHER case of you having two sets of values, one to apply to yourself, and one to apply to those who dare disagree with you?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 09:49 AM

"They are not an illegal weapon, but it is illegal to use any weapons on civilians."
Which was pointed out to you at the very beginning
To most human beings (find and ask one) the legality of such weapons in no way detracts from the fact that they are inhuman
"Flechettes are just a new form of shrapnel."
Nuclear weapons are just a new form of hand grenades - you are still downgrading the effect of these weapons
Flechettes are missiles deliberately designed to scatter dart-shaped, streamlined fragments into any human being who comes in their path - they have no function other than that - they are anti-personnel weapons
Fact
They were used indiscriminately in built-up areas making their use a war-crime
Fact
This has been pointed out by independents observers, including the Israeli B'Tsalem
Fact
Describing them as merely another form of shrapnel is to support their use - ie to support a war crime
Fact
"I have never defended the use of any weapons being used against civilians,"
You have supported the use of flecchettes by denying their use and by minimising their effect, as you are still doing.
Fact
I ask again WHY ARE YOU SUPPORTING THE USE OF THESE OBSCENITIES ON HUMAN BEINGS AND ATTEMPTING TO UNDERMINE THEIR EFFECT AND THE DFACT THAT THEY HAVE BEEN USED WHEN THE ISRAELIS HAVE MADE NO SUCH CLAIM - ARE YOU ON THEIR PAYROLL OR IS IT JUST A LITTLE HOBBY OF YOURS?
"So, where is it Jim?"
I have presented your having supported the use of this shit
I have presented your having supported white phosphorus
I have presented your having supported selling weapons, ammunition and riot control equipment to Assad (and your actually proposing he be sold more)
I have presented your having supported selling him chemicals which were capable of being turned into weapons
I have presented your supporting the sale of weapons to terrorist states
I have presented your supporting the use of chemicals on Bedouins in order to drive them off their land
And much, much more - in some cases several times over.
Where is what exactly?
Juicy Brucie:
What is the point of your link other than to reiterate their ineffectual and the incompetence of those using them?
Israel has just slaughtered around 2000 human beings in the name of 'defence' from these missiles - massive overkill in anybody's book, even if the 2000 were all fighters - they were not of course - the vast majority of the dead were non combatants, a large percentage of those being children.
Whose side are you on here - make up yur mind Weirdy Beardie!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 09:54 AM

"Can we say that YOUR bringing them up implies that YOU support them?"
As I did not bring them up - no you can not.
I find all such weapons obscene and condemn their use - whoever uses them.
Unlike you people who have openly supported the slaughter of nearly 2000 hman beings using all the weapons at their disposal
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 09:58 AM

Sorry - didn't quite finish
Friendly fire is a term coined by the U.S. to neutralise the killing of ones own troops.
It is what Keith described and it is how you have depicted the firing of rockets that (apparently) were worth slaughtering nearly 2000 people over.
Keep up, O Belligerent One
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 10:03 AM

Twisting my words just reinforces the relevance of them, you silly old sod.

A gaggle of old biddies singing "Fight the good fight" is no better than the raising of a flag to a rational person.

Neither kill, both state that allegiance to their imaginary friend comes above allegiance to the law of the land.

Both potentially disturbing. Both irrelevant in reality. Only one seen as unacceptable.

Anyway, at least when you were pretending I didn't exist, you missed so many opportunities to give us a laugh.

As I said before,

Some say good old Michael
Some say fuck him

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 10:03 AM

Jimmy boy,

"Flechettes are missiles deliberately designed to scatter dart-shaped, streamlined fragments into any human being who comes in their path - they have no function other than that - they are anti-personnel weapons
Fact"

TRUE


"They were used indiscriminately in built-up areas making their use a war-crime
Fact"

FALSE- NO indiscriminate use EXCEPT BY HAMAS has been claimed.


"This has been pointed out by independents observers, including the Israeli B'Tsalem
Fact"

FALSE- A SINGLE USE (6 shells, resulting in ONE WOUNDED WOMAN)


"Describing them as merely another form of shrapnel is to support their use - ie to support a war crime
Fact"

FALSE- But IF it were true, than YOUR claim as to Hamas rockets being so harmless is by YOUR definition supporting THAT war crime.


"Israel has just slaughtered around 2000 human beings in the name of 'defence' from these missiles "

FALSE- YOU are ignoring the FACT that a large number of those Palestinians civilians killed IN GAZA are being killed by HAMAS ROCKETS that misfire. I gave the numbers- your failure to comprehend factual information does not in any way impact it's validity.


160 dead children- Digging tunnels for Hamas
30 dead civilians - summarily executed by Hamas
600-1000 HAMAS antipersonnel warheads hitting Gaza - between 1 and 17 civilians killed for each warhead that was acknowledged by Hamas

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 10:07 AM

Jimmy,

YOUR lies area getting out of hand, boyo.

"As I did not bring them up - no you can not.
"

YOU did not bring up massacres?

"YOU have talked about massacres- Can we say that YOUR bringing them up implies that YOU support them?"


So someone else keeps posting those lies about Jenin?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 10:11 AM

Jimmy,

"the firing of rockets that (apparently) were worth slaughtering nearly 2000 people over."

THOSE ROCKETS have killed a significant number of the 2000 or so.

The majority of the rest were killed while launching this illegal anti-personnel rockets AT CIVILIANS-

Obviously, you and your fellow stooges APPROVE of launching anti-personnel rockets at civilians, in violation of the Geneva Conventions.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 10:15 AM

"YOUR lies area getting out of hand, boyo."
If that is true - and it certainly isn't, I have a lonfg way to go before I catch up to yours.
I posted the facts on Jenin in response to stupid claims about one form of propaganda being any more or less than any other form
I posted up the facts about Jenin as I understand them and I linked my statement.
Personally, I have no knowledge of the affair other than it was one of several attacks attack on a refugee camp by Isreal.
I notice that you, in all your honesty decline to comment on Sabra/Shatila and the buring of the evidence there.
Don't call me a liar you Antisemitic bastard
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 10:21 AM

Jimmy,

You have been shown to be a liar by your posts AFTER being given UN report data that proves your claims to be false.


YOU ARE A LIAR, you anti-Semitic bastard.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 10:24 AM

And you are a STU{PID liar, at that.

"The UN report to the Secretary General noted "Palestinians had claimed that between 400 and 500 people had been killed, fighters and civilians together. They {The Palestinians} had also claimed a number of summary executions and the transfer of corpses to an unknown place outside the city of Jenin. The number of Palestinian fatalities, on the basis of bodies recovered to date, in Jenin and the refugee camp in this military operation can be estimated at around 55 (27 of whom were combatants)."

The claim picked out in bold in the above passage was bollocks because:

"Amnesty International's report concluded "No matter whose figures one accepts, "there was no massacre." Amnesty's report specifically observed that "after the IDF temporarily withdrew from Jenin refugee camp on April 17, UNRWA set up teams to use the census lists to account for all the Palestinians (some 14,000) believed to be resident of the camp on April 3, 2002. WITHIN FIVE WEEKS ALL BUT ONE OF THE RESIDENTS WAS ACCOUNTED FOR."

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 10:54 AM

I have presented your having supported the use of this shit

Yes, you are good at that Jim, but it is bollocks.
What you can not do is produce a single quote of me doing it.
You claimed you could,
No Keith - you say this shit - I cut and paste exactly what you say for you to deny

So, where is it?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 11:49 AM

I could ask old Mather·the·Mouthie·titz to demonstrate where & how he thinks I have "twisted his words"; but really can't be arsed any further with the deceitful & evasive (& foulmouthed) little swine at present. Our exchange is there for anyone who wants to be bothered to read it. I rest my case entirely on our previous exchange. However, I might continue to read some of his fatuous posts [no predicting which], as it appears he preferred it when I didn't -- & so robbed him of the delight of explicitly expressing the desire that I might be "fucked".

Worrer Charmer, in't he just! So articulate and cultured...

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 12:25 PM

"but it is bollocks."
Shit - you've just lost me a bet.
A couple of mates here have been observing all this, and they siad you'd deny it outright without evidence - I thought you'd attempt to talk your way out of it or blame somebody else - I'll be buying the pints all night.
YOU HAVE YET TO EXPLAIN WHY YOU ARE STILL PUTTING UP ARGUMENTS ON BEHALF OF ISRAEL THAT THEY HAVEN'T EVEN PUT UP IN THEIR OWN DEFENCE
Jim Carroll
Incidentally, I notice that the U.S. has pledged itself to oppose Islamic groups who threaten the lives and safety of other minorities AND THE INTERESTS OF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE
That's the American oil supply taken care of!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 01:49 PM

Name one country under a State Religion that is a stable peaceful nation.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 01:53 PM

Denmark (Church of Denmark)[18] Also the Church of the Faroe Islands is the state church of the Faroe Islands, a territory of Denmark.

Iceland (Church of Iceland)[19] (76.81% of population members at 1 January 2012) [20]

Norway (Church of Norway)[21][22][23]

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 02:08 PM

Liechtenstein        Roman Catholic Church[7]

Malta        Roman Catholic Church

Greece        Greek Orthodox Church

Monaco        Roman Catholic Church

England        Church of England

Tuvalu        Church of Tuvalu

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 03:13 PM

Jim, I have never defended the use of any weapons being used against civilians, nor the use of any illegal weapons at all.

No Keith - you say this shit - I cut and paste exactly what you say for you to deny

So, where is it Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 03:38 PM

News of Caliphate lost in all the ---- posted here.

The U. S. bombing ISIS to protect Erbil, and dropping food and supplies to Yazidis.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 04:49 PM

Gee, I wonder what THAT'S gonna cost the U.S. taxpayers?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 05:18 PM

What should we infer from that Greg?
Do you begrudge money spent to avert genocide?
You would let those Arab people die, by violence or thirst?
What are you Greg?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 05:27 PM

Bruce: Not entirely sure you have answered Donuel's question. I don't think that a state having a traditionally "established" church is quite what he will have meant by a "country under a State Religion"; by which I take him to mean one in which the religious authorities exercise political control: I am sure we can all think of examples, generally within that putative entity which gives its name to the thread. If that wasn't what he meant, it would certainly be what I meant if I used the formulation.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 05:32 PM

I should perhaps have written "principal political control". I don't think the presence of Bishops in the UK House of Lords would qualify; or even, these days, the influence of Catholicism in Italy or Spain or Ireland; tho that might have been so argued until fairly recently. In "caliphate"-style domains, OTOH...

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 06:21 PM

What should we infer from that Greg?

Infer whatever you like, Fuckwit. Never stopped you before.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Aug 14 - 03:49 AM

"Name one country under a State Religion that is a stable peaceful nation."
It is far easier to name dozens that aren't.
"Do you begrudge money spent to avert genocide?"
Nobody does - what we do worry about is that, in including "the interests of America" among its objectives, the U.S. has given itself a blank cheque 'to go where it has been before' and defend its own interests wherever it sees fit.
W.M.D all over again.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Aug 14 - 04:33 AM

So you are against US protecting those helpless, desperate people?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Aug 14 - 04:42 AM

"So you are against US protecting those helpless, desperate people?"
I have just said I am not - I am against the United States using the plight of those "suffering, desperate people" as a window of opportunity to protect its oil interests, as it has in the past and is now quite likely to do again as it has deliberately added that to its intentions.
You apparently are not - now there's a surprise!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Aug 14 - 04:44 AM

Human compassion Jim.
You and Greg will never understand.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Aug 14 - 05:52 AM

Hypocrisy Keith
Can I remind you that when some of us called for military intervention at the time when the people of Homs were being slaughtered by snipers who were probably trained using British sold ammunition - before the Arab Spring Protests ahd developed into a civil war, you referred to us as "war-mongerers and fascists" and told us the "we couldn't be expected to become involved in every dispute that happened on the planet".
Had the west become involved then none of this need never have happened.
Isis is a direct product of the West's inaction - they were able to step into the gap left and they used arm supplied by the west to fight Assad to do so.
This has enabled them to grow into a significant extremist force threatening numerous states.
At the time, you were the first to defend the sale of arms and equipment to Assad, even extending that support to providing him with equipment to continue his oppression.
You opposed any boycott of sales to Assed, or ven the confiscation by Britain of London property belonging to him and one of his henchmen.   
America's intervention might have been regarded as an attempt to make up for past mistakes, but the rider that it gives itself to protect "American interests" makes it nothing bot an act of cynical opportunism.
Talk about the past coming back to bite your bum - both Americas and yours, that is
Don't suppose you'll respond to any of this with anything more than more denials
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Aug 14 - 07:16 AM

Yes,pacifist Jim wanted another Western military intvasion in another Arab land.
It was not just me who thought that crazy!
You were on your own.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Aug 14 - 11:01 AM

Jim, you have finally, completely lost the plot.
"Isis is a direct product of the West's inaction - they were able to step into the gap left and they used arm supplied by the west to fight Assad to do so.
This has enabled them to grow into a significant extremist force threatening numerous states."

President Assad said right from the beginning that he was fighting fundamentalist extremists and nobody believed him. We supported his opponents.
Do you think the West's action in Iraq and Libya contributed to a "safer" world?
Billions wasted, hundreds of thousands killed and both countries are now suffering what amounts to genocidal civil war.

I warned many months ago of a Caliphate being set up, and it has come to pass.
The West is only to blame in that it is beginning to be controlled by "liberal" numbskulls with no idea who or what they are dealing with.    Mr T is correct when dealing with fundamentalist lunatics the only word that matters is survival.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST,#
Date: 09 Aug 14 - 12:14 PM

ISIS is worse than a lice infection and should be handled the same way.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST,William of Oakham
Date: 09 Aug 14 - 12:42 PM

It is a forlorn hope, but how much better the world would be were there no religion. Superstition based on the ramblings of ancient imbeciles and demagogues is used to justify the infliction of much of the suffering of mankind. It is past time we all grew up - Christian, Jew, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Mormon and every variation thereof. I'm sure that the contributors to this thread could find a more productive way to pass the time.

"So they argue through the night, black is black and white is white
Walk away knowing they are right! "

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 09 Aug 14 - 12:59 PM

"Isis is a direct product of the West's inaction - they were able to step into the gap left and they used arm supplied by the west to fight Assad to do so.
This has enabled them to grow into a significant extremist force threatening numerous states." Jim Carroll

I would take your statement a further step. Isis is not the result of 'inaction" by the west. It is the result of purposeful action by the west to withdraw from the conflict, leaving the defense of the country to an immature government and an immature military. Also, either the west's intelligence services are pitiful in this modern world, or their accurate information was being deliberately ignored. I lean toward the latter scenario.

I use the word 'immature' in the sense of not being fully developed or prepared.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Aug 14 - 01:18 PM

Isis is a direct product of the West's inaction

No, its a result of the cack-handed U.S. foreign policy in Iraq and Iran (not to say the whole Middle East) most recently exemplified by George Dumbya Bush & his lap-dog Tony Blair.

By their bogus Iraq war they've created this situation, and all the hand-wringing in the world won't change that fact.

Not to say that this situation is their responsibility alone; this clusterfuck goes back before Reagan and Iran-Contra.

Its the chickens coming home to roost one more time, a.k.a. blowback.

The U.S. didn't learn dick from the Vietnam experience, & its deja vu all over again.

"We're fighting in a war we lost before the war began, its the U.S. marching in an Arab land" -    (with apologies to Phil Ochs)

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Aug 14 - 04:00 AM

"President Assad said right from the beginning that he was fighting fundamentalist extremists and nobody believed him."
So now you are advocating for a mass murderer - out of the closet finally and not before time - I see you are addressing him with the honour his rank bestows on him!
The Syrian conflict began as part of the Arab Spring conflict, Assad the thus (to give him his correct title) reacted with extreme violence, as a dictator with track record of torture and murder whould be expected to react.
The West did nothing allowing extremists to fill the gap left by their inaction.
To suggest that the protesters were, as you quote "President" Assad as claiming is as gut-heaving as it gets and puts into perfect context your support for selling him ammunition, riot control equipment and the wherewithal to manufacture chemical weapons.
It would have saves so much time if you had made your position clear from the beginning.
Another item for your C.V. - it will look wonderful next to your "cultural implant" theory.
Have a good day now, I'm sure I will now you've got that off your chest.
Jim Carrol

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 10 Aug 14 - 04:35 AM

Just to correct those speaking of the term "state religion" using the term wrongly in order to justify their bullshit.

Whilst many countries are influenced by a religion, there are two countries where religion is constituted in the legislature.

The United Kingdom
Iran


That's it.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Aug 14 - 04:48 AM

Incidentally, regarding my "warmongering" and "pacifism"
I have never advocated "invading" anywhere - not would I
My suggestion was that, as the U.N. had refused to act and in the light of the massacres that were taking place, Britain, the U.S. and other willing nations should assist the Arab Spring protesters in the form of manpower and arms to stop the bloodbath as they had done in Libya - that was my analogy from the start.
I made the point that, if Syria had had a marketable oil supply, Britain and America would have had no hesitation in doing so, as they had done in Iraq and in Libya.
If that was "warmongering" and "fascism" as you suggest, then in was something the British Government was guilty of - it was exactly what Cameron tried and failed to get through Parliament - it's always given me more than a little discomfort to realise that I became that close to agreeing with a Tory Prime Minister!
Had they done so, and backed their actions with a call for a world-wide embargo of Syrian Trade and seizure of property abroad, Assad might have been stopped in his tracks, the Syrian Arab Spring protests might have developed into something worthwhile and the opportunity for the extremists to take over would not have taken place, thus closing a window of opportunity on ISIS, who was enabled to cut its teeth in that war.
As a pacifist (sort of, as I describe myself), like others who share by outlook, I baulk at the idea of taking life and have been lucky to never been put in the position of having to choose to do so.
In the light of what was happening in Syria, it would have been insane to allow Assad to continue as he was allowed to and as you appear to be happy that he was, 'champion of the fight against terrorism' as you seem to regard him.
Once again, have a good day now!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 10 Aug 14 - 07:48 AM

BEIRUT (AP) — A cleric read the verdict before the truck came and dumped a large pile of stones near the municipal garden. Jihadi fighters then brought in the woman, clad head to toe in black, and put her in a small hole in the ground. When residents gathered, the fighters told them to carry out the sentence: Stoning to death for the alleged adulteress.

None in the crowd stepped forward, said a witness to the event in a northern Syrian city. So the jihadi fighters, mostly foreign extremists, did it themselves, pelting Faddah Ahmad with stones until her body was dragged away.

"Even when she was hit with stones she did not scream or move," said an opposition activist who said he witnessed the stoning near the football stadium and the Bajaa garden in the city of Raqqa, the main Syrian stronghold of the Islamic State group.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Aug 14 - 07:55 AM

assist the Arab Spring protesters in the form of manpower

That sounds like invasion of Syria, which is what you specifically advocated at that time.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Aug 14 - 08:13 AM

"That sounds like invasion of Syria, which is what you specifically advocated at that time."
Where?
What I proposed is exactly what I said, which was what Cameron proposed which was what happened in Libya, which I gave as an example - piss off.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Aug 14 - 08:23 AM

"BEIRUT (AP) — A cleric read the verdict before the truck came and dumped a large pile of stones near the municipal garden"

Description of a hospital bombed by Israelis
Israel Bombs Gaza's Only Rehab Hospital: Staff Forced to Evacuate Paralyzed Patients After Shelling
DR. BASMAN ALASHI: Last night, just before 9:00, they sent us a warning over the phone that "We will bomb the hospital, so you need to evacuate." And we've been receiving these calls for the last 11 days, so we did not take that call, that issue and matter seriously, because of repeated calls from the Israeli forces that "We will bomb you, we will bomb you," but they haven't done anything. And we insisted that we cannot leave the hospital. Our patients are, all of them, paralyzed, unable—they're unconscious. They're unable to move, so we need to stay in this hospital. And this is the only rehabilitation hospital in Gaza and in the West Bank.
But just few minutes after the call, shells start falling down on the hospital—the fourth floor, third floor, second floor. Smoke, fire, dust all over. We lost electricity. Many of our nurses, they lost control of themselves. They were unable to stand up on their feet. They left the hospital. Patients were left alone, unknown what will happen to them. I was able to call many ambulances around the area, plus the fire department, and we were able to move all of them. Some of them needed an oxygen, so we have to wait until 11:00 until we receive that oxygen. So, the few patients that we have, luckily, nobody got hurt. Only burning building, smoke inside, dust, ceiling falling, wall broke, electricity cutoff, water is leaking everywhere. So, the hospital became [uninhabitable]. At that time, we said evacuation is much more healthier for the patients and for the nurses

EFFECTS OF WHITE PHOSPHORUS USED BY ISRAELIS
Hospitals across the Gaza Strip have reported increasing numbers of civilians with serious burns being admitted for emergency treatment, and the scale of injuries indicates that IOF are using these unidentified incinerating bombs to target civilians across the Gaza Strip. For example, on 10 January, 2009, residents of Khuza'a village, east of Khan Yunis, reported being attacked by IOF artillery shells which exploded into flames, dispersing shrapnel and dense white smoke that caused skin burns, suffocation, spasms and fainting. At least one hundred local civilians were injured by this IOF attack, including medical personnel who arrived at the scene. Civilians were subsequently admitted to hospitals in Khan Yunis, suffering from breathing difficulties and severe pains in their eyes.
VERMONTERS FOR PEACE IN PALESTINE
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Aug 14 - 12:03 PM

Jim, surely even you can see that what happened in Libya was an absolute disaster.
Hague and Cameron should be indicted for grievous crimes against reason.

The removal from power and murder of Gadaffi was one of the biggest foreign policy blunders ever made.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Aug 14 - 12:15 PM

Stoning to death for the alleged adulteress.

And that, Boo, differs from electrocution, lethal injection, hanging & etc how exactly? You can answer in the capital punishment thread if you prefer.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 10 Aug 14 - 01:11 PM

"And that, Boo, differs from electrocution, lethal injection, hanging & etc how exactly?"

And who does that for alleged adultery exactly?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 10 Aug 14 - 01:15 PM

Oh and Greg, your attempts at establishing moral equivalences are becoming more and more pathetic....I suggest you give it a rest.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Aug 14 - 01:46 PM

"Hague and Cameron should be indicted for grievous crimes against reason."
You mean Gadaffi should have been left where he was, the West should have continued to continue to trade with him until he snuffed it then his son, who was being groomed by the west, would be able to fill daddy's shoes?
If you know anything about politics you know you can't leave things as they are in these situations - you assist and encourage in the hope that the situation improves - unfortunately, the history of all these countries has been that they have been used by colonials until they are no use, then have been discarded as being of no value anymore.
A follow-up to the civil war might have helped, but it didn't happen - doesn't mean that Gadaffi was worse or better, just the The Arab Spring offered a chance for improvement
What do you suggest is done about Syria, let Assad continue his slaughtering, wait till the dust settles and let him get his torture chambers up and running again, then allow him to return to the fold as the 'valued British Trading partner he and his predecessors always were?
Given what was happening in Homs, the responsibility was with the United Nations to step in, failing, the Western Democracies should have been there st stop the slaughter - the didn't, we blew it and the extremists took over - then spread, crating a world-wide problem.
Like all these situations, you've got to win hearts and minds as well as wars - in Libya we helped do one but not the other - result chaos.
In Syria, we did neither - result utter disaster.
Until the West starts recognising these as potential friends and trading partners instead of petrol pumps this will continue to happen.
Might as well join up with Israel and do what General Westmorland proposed for Vietnam - "bomb them back into the Stoneage".
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 Aug 14 - 02:07 PM

Jim:

Re your post of 0823 am. Much exercised as to why you have headed an animadversion against the use of certain disagreeable forms of armament with the opening sentence of the report reproduced above about the woman stoned to death for alleged adultery. I cannot get my head around any possible connection. Some sort of elucidation would be welcome.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: pdq
Date: 10 Aug 14 - 02:11 PM

about the quote from above and its attribution...


        General CURTIS E. LEMAY, Mission with LeMay: My Story, p. 565 (1965).

In an interview two years after the publication of this book, General LeMay said, "I never said we should bomb them back to the Stone Age. I said we had the capability to do it. I want to save lives on both sides."          — The Washington Post, October 4, 1968, p. A8.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Aug 14 - 03:00 PM

2Much exercised as to why you have headed an animadversion against the use of certain disagreeable forms of armament with the opening sentence of the report reproduced above about the woman stoned to death for alleged adultery. I cannot get my head around any possible connection."
The poster has made a point for a long time now of putting up quote after quot showing that Muslims are baddies and Jews and Christians are all goodies - my religions are better than yours - it seems to have become his raison d'etre - a can't actually remember him ever making any other kind.   
As he is one of the foremost in defending Israeli atrocities using just this technique, I assumed this posting had the same purpose and was pointing our that it cuts both ways.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Aug 14 - 03:26 PM

So says LeMay, PeeDee- the facts say otherwise.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 Aug 14 - 04:54 PM

But, Jim; this is not primarily an Israel v Palestinians thread -- we have two of those running already -- but one about the Caliphate as a project. Surely the point of the stoned-to-death story was, that was what might be expected, if the Caliphate as proposed really took a hold, to happen over the whole region. Can't see it as any sort of comparable case to the enormities your pastes dealt with. So, I continue to think, more confusing than enlightening.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Aug 14 - 05:45 PM

"But, Jim; this is not primarily an Israel v Palestinians thread"
We've developed a situation where certain people use these threads however they choose util they get bogged down, then squeal "thread-drift".
So far on this thread Gaza has been mentioned 124 times, Palestine 245 times and Israel 485 times - suddenly its a problem...
Am I missing something here?
I have given my reasons.... and so to bed (if the conspiracy thriller's crap, that is!)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 01:43 AM

Yes, Jim. I am not denying, or even objecting to, the way the thread has drifted. Just pointing out that it has as a consequence two strands, the original & the drift. The paste you chose to head that post with belonged to the first; the main contents of the post to the second. So your claiming any sort of equivalence between the two elements was tendentious, provocative, & intentionally misleading: a blatant piece of inapplicable "wotaboutery"; implying that the violent stoning to death of a woman for what would not even be a legal offence in other parts of the world than that where these sort of objectionable regimes obtain is somehow equivalent to the use of weapons in a war situation which may be disproportionately deployed. I still fail to see any sort of equivalence of the sort you claim; and I think you are foolish to imply that any even exists.

I don't know whether you will get the point of my drawing attention to this incongruity. But I hope there are others who will.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 03:37 AM

"So your claiming any sort of equivalence between the two elements was tendentious,"
Not when the intention of the poster is to represent one particular brand of extremism as being superior to another, as it has been from the beginning by this particular poster.
The problem with all these 'discussions'(sic) has been, from the beginning, that there has been no genuine attempt to discuss them, rather, it has been examples of defences of personal preferences.
Your "wotterboutery" is an inevitable consequence of this
You want to discuss Muslim extremism in context of its causes - fine, I've always been game for this - you want to just to throw up example after of example in order to present extremism as being 'Muslim' - expect counterbalance.
These subjects have become little more than diatribes of hate and intolerance and Booboo with his persistent drawing of examples from some of the most extreme sources, is one of the main culprits.
Not really prepared to sit on my hands while he turns these discussions into hate-fests, sorry, and all that.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 04:30 AM

1. I know the accurate meaning of the word "decimate". Historically it means to kill one in ten, as Meyer says. I do not agree with him that the prevalence of ignorance makes ignorance wisdom. I said "decimate (or worse)". Any attempt to assert that there is a material difference between that and "decimate or worse" is a manifest stupidity. To exterminate a set of people is in many respects worse than killing one in ten of them. I was, therefore, right in what I said.

2. Yes, there are rules of war. Anyone who asserts that that is not so, or that that should not be so, is an actual or potential war criminal.

3. Whatever their religion, Isis are criminals. Their actions, not their religion, make them legitimate targets. The problem is how to stop them. No-one here has ever suggested that what Isis are doing is right or justified. What some have appeared to argue is that if not enough is done about Isis it somehow justifies Israel's (actual or alleged) war crimes. That is another manifest stupidity.

4. It might be interesting to examine whether the sources of Islam (see here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_holy_books) - and as to the forms (yes, plural) of teh Quran see here: http://answering-islam.org/Nehls/tt1/tt4.html - including the Sunnah and the Hadith - do support the establishment by force of a caliphate and the "conversion" by force of those conquered.   I doubt whether any of us here are sufficient Islamic scholars or could in the available time become sufficient Islamic scholars to spread light, rather than heat, on that subject.

5. A side question would be the reliability of the text of the Quran. It is wholly unintelligent to assert that its form is divinely cast and certain in that there is no single text that predates Uthman's consolidation of previous texts.   

6. What is the best way to stop Isis? Previous US reliance on air power has largely led to disaster, or, over time, the worsening, in one way or another, of the situation, in many different places. Is a ground war likely to be more effective? The Nigerian experience with Boko Haram is a poor parallel because of the systematic weakening of the Nigerian army, over a considerable period, for political reasons - but the experience of ground forces in Afghanistan should worry those who want armies sent in.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 05:38 AM

"it means to kill one in ten, as Meyer says. I do not agree with him that the prevalence of ignorance makes ignorance wisdom".
.,,.

I* do not agree that acceptance of the evolution of the meaning of a word to differ from its original meaning necessarily constitutes 'ignorance'. It is a familiar process with regard to much of our vocabulary. A nice point, one might think: by which I don't mean a pleasant one, but one with certain distinctions of meaning to be observed. I would suggest trying to trace the history of that word "nice", before inaccurately attributing opinions which they do not in fact hold to those who might just know better than oneself. I have mentioned before how much confidence I consider it would be appropriate to place in the linguistic & semantic opinions of Mr Bridge (or, as he would himself so courteously put it, "of Bridge".)

≈M≈


*[who am called Myer as it happens; it is generally regarded as a courtesy to get people's names correct; I always try to take care to do so myself]

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 08:12 AM

What I proposed is exactly what I said, which was what Cameron proposed

I supported that too Jim.
You me Bobad BB and Teribus were the only ones here who did.

Long before that you (alone) were advocating a Western invasion.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 08:26 AM

Sorry, Myer, about your name. Your adoption of a conflation of the names of British Lion Films and Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer boggles my mind. I infer it indicates some conceit or other: something not alien to you.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 08:31 AM

PS - every so often one still hears uses of "nice" that do to some extent reflect the first English uses.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 08:36 AM

"I supported that too Jim."
No - Cameron proposed sending armed assistance, which you opposed and described as "fascism" and "warmongering" -
You supported selling him "riot control equipment because ""even democracies have to be able to maintain law and order".
Cameron's problem was that he sold ammunition to Assad, as well as riot control equipment, armoured cars, tear gas and water cannon which you supported
Two weeks into the Arab Spring protests he opened a massive arms sale aimed at some of the dictators under fire by the protesters - that nice Mr Cable said it was common policy, so we ca have more to look forward to in the future
In the middle of the Homs carnage one of Cameron's ministers declared that the the conflict must in no way interfere with future British trade - Rule Britannia, eh?
Never advocated invasion and how could you support anything long before as Britain never mentioned acting in any way until they put it to a vote in parliament - your nose must be ten times as long as Pinocchio Blair's by now
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 08:42 AM

No - Cameron proposed sending armed assistance,
I think you made that up Jim, but he did support Obamas' proposed intervention over chemical weapons like You and I did.

Cameron's problem was that he sold ammunition to Assad,
No he did not.

In the middle of the Homs carnage one of Cameron's ministers declared that the the conflict must in no way interfere with future British trade - Rule Britannia, eh?
Made up.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 08:52 AM

Thank you for apology, Richard. My Californian relations do spell it Mayer: & in fact Louis B Mayer of MGM was my 1st cousin twice removed, ie my paternal grandfather's first cousin. So my initials, and the use I put them to for my current Mudcat name, are not entirely adventitious. Sorry if you got confused.

I suppose that means that delectable Judy Garland must have been some sort of mistress-in-law of mine. & much good may that do me!

I wasn't thinking of British Lion, but of the creature who always gives those three "Grr·ROARrr·Rrr!'s at the beginning of all Cousin Louis's films.

FWIW, the only one I have actually met is my [can't work out how
many·℔] cousin Danny Mayer, who was a dancer who always came over as part of Judy Garland's company for her annual season at the Dominion in Tottenham Court Road, during one of which she died. A couple of years before, he contacted my grandmother, then in her 80s and living in Kensington, & we all went to tea to meet him. He was one of the dancers in the crap-game-in-the-sewer sequence in Guys & Dolls. Next time you see it, watch out for the one in the big green fedora hat; that's my cousin Danny!

All of which has a great deal to do with the Caliphate, eh?


                   ~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 09:18 AM

Islamic State has crushed a pocket of resistance to its control in eastern Syria, crucifying two people and executing 23 others in the past five days, a monitoring group said on Monday.
The insurgents, who are also making rapid advances in Iraq, are tightening their grip in Syria, of which they now controls roughly a third, mostly rural areas in the north and east.

The group, an al-Qaida offshoot, has fought the Syrian army, Kurdish militias, and Sunni Muslim tribal forces.

The Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, a Britain-based monitoring organization, and residents in Syria's east said that fighters from the al-Sheitaat tribe in eastern Deir al-Zor had tried to resist Islamic State's advance this month.

In al-Shaafa, a town on the banks of the Euphrates river, Islamic State beheaded two men from the al-Sheitaat clan on Sunday, the Observatory said, and gave residents a 12-hour deadline on Monday to hand over members of the tribe.

In other parts of Deir al-Zor province, the militants crucified two men for the crime of "dealing with apostates" in the city of Mayadin, and two others for blasphemy in the nearby town of al-Bulel, the Observatory said.

Islamic State has made rapid gains in Syria since it seized northern Iraq's largest city, Mosul, on June 10, and declared an Islamic caliphate on territory it controls in Syria and Iraq.

The Observatory said a further 19 men from the al-Sheitaat tribe were executed on Thursday, 18 shot dead and one beheaded, on the outskirts of Deir al-Zor city. It said the men worked at an oil installation.

"No one will now dare from the other tribes to move against Islamic State after the defeat of the al-Sheitaat," said Ahmad Ziyada al-Qaissi, an Islamic State sympathizer contacted by Skype from Mayadin.

Tribal sources say the conflict between Islamic State and the al-Sheitaat tribe, who number about 70,000, flared after Islamic State took over of two oil fields in July.

One of those, al-Omar, is the biggest oil and gas field in Deir al-Zor and has been a lucrative source of funds for rebel groups.

The head of the al-Sheitaat tribe, Sheikh Rafaa Aakla al-Raju, called in a video message for other tribes to join the fight against Islamic State.

"We appeal to the other tribes to stand by us because it will be their turn next ... If (Islamic State) are done with us, the other tribes will targeted after al-Sheitaat. They are the next target," he said in the video, posted on YouTube on Sunday.



WINNING RESPECT

A Syrian human rights activist from Deir al-Zor who fled for Turkey last year said rebels opposed to President Bashar al-Assad had retreated to al-Sheitaat tribal areas from which they had been trying to mount resistance to Islamic State's expansion.

He said, on condition of anonymity, that the resistance had been crushed in the past few days. "The situation is very bad, but the people can't repel them," he said.

He said that in tandem with their violent campaign, Islamic State was distributing gas, electricity, fuel, and food to garner local support.

"It is a poor area. They are winning support this way. They won a lot of support this way. They are halting theft and punishing thieves. This is also giving them credibility."

More than 170,000 people have been killed in Syria's civil war, which pits overwhelmingly Sunni Muslim rebels against Assad, a member of the Shi'ite-derived Alawite minority, backed by Shi'ite militias from Iraq and Lebanon.

The insurgency is split between competing factions, with Islamic State emerging as the most powerful.

In Raqqa, Islamic State's power base in Syria, its hold appears to be growing only firmer even as Syrian government forces intensify air strikes on territory held by the group.

One Syrian living in an area of Islamic State control near Raqqa said the number of its fighters in the streets had grown dramatically in the past few weeks, particularly since it captured the army's 17th Division at the end of July.

The group has carried out beheadings, levied a tax on non-Muslims, and settled foreign fighters in confiscated homes, said the resident, who asked for anonymity because of security concerns.

But despite that, as in Deir al-Zor, it has won a degree of respect among locals by curbing crime using its version of law and order. For youths without work, salaries offered by Islamic State are one of the few sources of income.

"The (Islamic) State has respect and standing, and its voice is heard," said the resident, speaking by Skype.



Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/r-islamic-state-beheads-crucifies-in-push-for-syrias-east-2014-11#ixzz3A5abtQKb

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 09:29 AM

Richard,
What some have appeared to argue is that if not enough is done about Isis it somehow justifies Israel's (actual or alleged) war crimes. That is another manifest stupidity.

No.
It is the massive emphasis only on attacking Israel for its actions.
Guardian 3 days ago,

"Why the disproportionate coverage of Israel? "Jews are news" many say, with a shrug. But this obsession with Israel's conduct tacitly encourages the easy slide into hostility towards Jews.

First, the reporting gives the false impression that the situation in Gaza, though tragic, is uniquely horrific. Compare it to the silence surrounding Isis's frightening rampage through Iraq: Mosul has been emptied of its ancient Christian community; hundreds of thousands of Yezidis have been cleansed from Nineveh province. Compare it also to coverage of the plight of Palestinians in Syria, where thousands of Palestinians have been killed and the Yarmouk refugee camp remains under siege. How many newspaper front pages have been devoted to these events?"

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/aug/07/gaza-coverage-rise-antisemitic-attacks-europe

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 10:03 AM

BAGHDAD (Reuters) - Islamic State militants have killed at least 500 members of Iraq's Yazidi ethnic minority during their offensive in the north, Iraq's human rights minister told Reuters on Sunday.

Mohammed Shia al-Sudani said the Sunni militants had also buried alive some of their victims, including women and children. Some 300 women were kidnapped as slaves, he added.

"We have striking evidence obtained from Yazidis fleeing Sinjar and some who escaped death, and also crime scene images that show indisputably that the gangs of the Islamic States have executed at least 500 Yazidis after seizing Sinjar," Sudani told Reuters.

Sinjar is the ancient home of the Yazidis, one of the towns captured by the Sunni militants who view the community as "devil worshipers".

"Some of the victims, including women and children were buried alive in scattered mass graves in and around Sinjar," Sudani said.

The Islamic State, which has declared a caliphate in parts of Iraq and Syria, has prompted tens of thousands of Yazidis and Christians to flee for their lives during their push to within a 30-minute drive of the Kurdish regional capital Arbil.

The Yazidis, followers of an ancient religion derived from Zoroastrianism, are spread over northern Iraq and are part of the country's Kurdish minority.

A deadline passed at midday on Sunday for 300 Yazidi families to convert to Islam or face death at the hands of the Islamic State. It was not immediately clear whether the Iraqi minister was talking about the fate of those families or others in the conflict.

The militant group, which arrived in northern Iraq in June, has routed Kurds in its latest advance, seizing several towns, a fifth oilfield and Iraq's biggest dam - possibly gaining the ability to flood cities and cut off water and power supplies.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 10:07 AM

Washington (AFP) - Former secretary of state Hillary Clinton blamed the rise of Islamist militants in Iraq and Syria on failures of US policy under President Barack Obama, in an interview published Sunday.

Clinton specifically faulted the US decision to stay on the sidelines of the insurgency against Syria's President Bashar al-Assad as opening the way for the most extreme rebel faction, the Islamic State.

"The failure to help build up a credible fighting force of the people who were the originators of the protests against Assad —- there were Islamists, there were secularists, there was everything in the middle -— the failure to do that left a big vacuum, which the jihadists have now filled," Clinton told the Atlantic.

Clinton, widely considered an undeclared presidential candidate, was an unsuccessful advocate of arming the Syrian rebels when she was secretary of state during Obama's first term.

She was interviewed before the US president's decision Thursday to order limited air strikes to check an IS offensive into Kurdistan, which threatened US nationals and facilities and sent thousands of refugees fleeing into the mountains.

Obama, who oversaw the US withdrawal from Iraq in 2011, vowed not to send US troops back into the country and said Iraqis needed to confront the jihadist threat by forming an inclusive unity government.

Clinton, however, suggested in the interview that Obama lacked a strategy for dealing with the jihadist threat.

"Great nations need organizing principles, and 'Don't do stupid stuff' is not an organizing principle," she said referring to an Obama slogan.

She said the United States must develop an "overarching" strategy to confront Islamist extremism, likening it to the long US struggle against Soviet-led communism.

"One of the reasons why I worry about what's happening in the Middle East right now is because of the breakout capacity of jihadist groups that can affect Europe, can affect the United States," she said. "Jihadist groups are governing territory. They will never stay there, though. They are driven to expand. Their raison d'etre is to be against the West, against the Crusaders, against the fill-in-the-blank—and we all fit into one of these categories.

"How do we try to contain that? I'm thinking a lot about containment, deterrence, and defeat," she said.

Her arguments, seen as an attempt to distance herself from Obama, echoed those of Republican critics who accuse Obama of allowing a power vacuum to develop by failing to bring US leadership to bear in conflicts from Syria to Iraq to Ukraine.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 11:41 AM

It is the massive emphasis only on attacking Israel for its actions.
It's fairly obvious that the Israeli propaganda factory is getting its act together in presenting opposition to the Gazan massacre as 'Antisemitic' - it's a ploy that will backfire on every Jew on the planet
"I think you made that up Jim, but he did support Obamas' proposed intervention over chemical weapons like You and I did"
You have opposed all intervention in Syria and you described my doing so as "invasion" (which you continue to do) "warmongering and fascism"
Why do you make these statements publicly if you intend to lie about them later, and if you supported intervention, why did you propose providing anti-riot equipment and defend the sale of sniper rifles and chemicals for weapons
The lobotomy obviously didn't work!
Jim Carroll

Jews for Justice
American Liberl Zionist Response
Jewish blogs
Independant Jewish voices - Canada
Crisis among American Zionists
Global Jewry
Stop the War Coalition
Jewish Voice for Peace

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 11:47 AM

Former secretary of state Hillary Clinton blamed the rise of Islamist militants in Iraq and Syria on failures of US policy under President Barack Obama

Bullshit, Bullshot.

Blame lies with the failed interventionist policies of U.S. Presidents Bush I, Ronnie RayGun & Bush II.

This one ain't down to Obama. Hillary is just starting her presidential campaigning a bit early.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 11:52 AM

Jim, I did support Obama's proposed intervention over CW.
So did France's socialist government, both US parties and all 3 UK main parties.
Against were the Tea Party, UKIP, and all your Mudcat mates.
Remember?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 11:53 AM

TONY Abbott has denounced as "hideous" and "barbaric" a photograph of Australian terrorist Khaled Sharrouf's son holding the severed head of a slain Syrian soldier.

The shocking photograph — posted on Twitter by a proud father with the words "Thats my boy!" - drew condemnation from across the political divide after being published in The Australian today. The picture has attracted worldwide news coverage.

Barbaric image of Khaled Sharrouf's son a warning to the world: Tony Abbott

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 12:20 PM

I guess Mr. Abbott has forgotten about the "trophies" that soldiers - U.S, British, Austrlian, etc - took in Vietnam, eh Boo?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 12:21 PM

You are a ******* liar Keith
Not only did you not support intervention, but you expressed fears at what would happen if Assad fell - you actually supported the bastard while at the same time wringing your hands for what he was doing.
Correction - you are a hypocritical liar
Jim Carroll

"Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 04:25 AM
I am criticised for not having any solutions to the crisis in Syria.
That puts me in good company with the world's greatest statesmen and leaders!
I DO NOT FAVOUR A MILITARY INTERVENTION.
I ALSO FEAR FOR SYRIA'S CHRISTIANS IF AND WHEN THE REGIME FALLS.

I started the thread to express horror at the indiscriminate attacks on civilians (hand=wringing sympathy according to the Hard Left), and anger that all attempts to secure a Security Council resolution were being blocked by Russia and China who also continued to arm the regime.
The Hard Left seemed not to share in that anger, reserving it all for Britain."

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 12:40 PM

Yes Jim, but Obama's proposed intervention over CW was over a year later, and I supported it.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 12:52 PM

Oh and Greg, your attempts at establishing moral equivalences are becoming more and more pathetic....I suggest you give it a rest.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 12:54 PM

BS: chemical weapons in Syria
From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 28 Aug 13 - 09:27 AM

"The weapons inspectors have resumed their work."
Excellent - hope they get finished before the Brits and US invade, as they seem to have decided (at long last) to do
Jim Carroll

chemical weapons in Syria
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 30 Aug 13 - 01:31 PM

If we do not treat nerve gas as different to every other form of violent oppression, it will become just as common.

At the moment it is still a "red line."
A "game changer."

If we lose that we condemn unknown thousands to death by nerve gas because any tyrant can get it cheap.

They might hesitate if they know it will cost them their presidential palace.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 12:56 PM

BS: chemical weapons in Syria
From: GUEST,keith A - PM
Date: 08 Sep 13 - 10:36 AM

If only all those people and politicians now opposing any intervention had expressed that view back when Obama first announced that he regarded chemical weapons as a red line.

If only they had objected at the time that they actually did not care what methods of slaughter were used on Syrians, Obama would have known what to expect.

No-one on Mudcat came out and said it was not our concern whether gas, germs or radionucleides rained on innocent families, but now they are outraged that Obama assumed decent people would support him.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 01:11 PM

Keith, you are imagining that predominantly only Israel is criticised. There were pages on ISIS in the Mirror just recently.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 01:17 PM

There has been much coverage since Quraqosh and Sinjar fell, but little previously.
Guardian,
""Why the disproportionate coverage of Israel? "Jews are news" many say, with a shrug. But this obsession with Israel's conduct tacitly encourages the easy slide into hostility towards Jews.

First, the reporting gives the false impression that the situation in Gaza, though tragic, is uniquely horrific. Compare it to the silence surrounding Isis's frightening rampage through Iraq: Mosul has been emptied of its ancient Christian community; hundreds of thousands of Yezidis have been cleansed from Nineveh province. Compare it also to coverage of the plight of Palestinians in Syria, where thousands of Palestinians have been killed and the Yarmouk refugee camp remains under siege. How many newspaper front pages have been devoted to these events?"
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/aug/07/gaza-coverage-rise-antisemitic-attacks-europe

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 01:26 PM

Oh and Greg, your attempts at establishing moral equivalences are becoming more and more pathetic...

Amusing, Boo, especially as you, Bullshot & FKWT constantly do the same thing when you can spin it to Israel's favor.

Have you got a mirror in the house?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 01:33 PM

Greggie,,

ANd if we do, YOU COMPLAIN ABOUT IT.

Are you still claiming that YOU get to do things tat the rest of us are forbidden to do? That you and your stooges have special privileges, and don't have the same rules to follow as those you DEMAND of the rest of us?


WHO DIED AND MADE YOU GOD???

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 01:45 PM

Special privileges like you Boo & etc. grant to Israel you mean, Bullshot?

WHO DIED AND MADE YOU GOD???

You really could benefit from psychiatric help, you know.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 01:54 PM

Greggie boy,

As you are the certified insane resident bigot, I ams sure you know far more about needing psychiatric help than the rest of us.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 01:59 PM

Keith, you are trying to grant absolution to Israel for irrational reasons. Even if there should be more coverage of Isis and Boko Haram, none of that exculpates Israel, and the insistence that it is "antisemitism" frankly does those suffering from real antisemitism a disservice.


I would however ask why it is that you and your fellow travellers decry what you allege to be a PC reluctance to investigate alleged wrongdoing by Muslims, or their prevalence on schoolboards - but support a definition of antisemitism that (by way of my paraphrase) includes as a form of antisemitism the questioning of whether Jews have excessive influence or control of media or the law or of legislation.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 02:41 PM

I am not claiming "absolution" for anyone.
I am just questioning why Israel's actions are so much more discussed than the much worse behaviour of others.

Guardian,
"Tiny Israel ranks fifth in the list of foreign countries most reported on by the Guardian. Gaza is an important news story – but the wall-to-wall coverage leaves many scratching their heads. Nobody seems to recall similar attention devoted to the far greater civilian casualties of the UK's operations in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Why the disproportionate coverage of Israel? "Jews are news" many say, with a shrug. But this obsession with Israel's conduct tacitly encourages the easy slide into hostility towards Jews.

First, the reporting gives the false impression that the situation in Gaza, though tragic, is uniquely horrific. Compare it to the silence surrounding Isis's frightening rampage through Iraq: Mosul has been emptied of its ancient Christian community; hundreds of thousands of Yezidis have been cleansed from Nineveh province. Compare it also to coverage of the plight of Palestinians in Syria, where thousands of Palestinians have been killed and the Yarmouk refugee camp remains under siege. How many newspaper front pages have been devoted to these events?"

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 01:42 AM

" I am against the United States using the plight of those "suffering, desperate people" as a window of opportunity to protect its oil interests."

What oil interests, Christmas?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 02:45 AM

"What oil interests, Christmas?"
When the U.S. announced its intentions to become involved in this, it did so on the basis that it was doing so on humanitarian grounds - excellent, pity it didn't apply in Syria or Gaza, but there you go.
It added the rider "and in order to protect the interests of the American people", which left it free go "go where no man ought to go" wherever and whenever it saw fit
Maybe Middle eastern oil is no longer of interest to the U.S. and we no longer have to concern ourselves with Gulf Wars or Weapons of Mass Destruction - what does your friend, who reads these things for you think, me little Tortoise?
Asleep on duty again, tsk, tsk, - you'll be put on a charge.
Back to your post.
"I am just questioning why Israel's actions are so much more discussed than the much worse behaviour of others"
No you are not - you are just claiming infallibility for Israel once again.
Israel has just slaughtered around 2000 people; in the past it engineered the rape and massacre of up to 3,500 unarmed refugees.
It has given itself the right to declare Israel to be wherever she wishes it to be, to evict or slaughter anybody who gets in her way.
She has the manpower and weapons, including nuclear facility, to carry out such a policy and is ruled by an extremist right-wing government driven by a mission and a 'God-given' right.
She has the power to reduce the Middle East to ashes, making her a far greater threat than all the other fanatical headbangers rolled together.
We've just seen what she is prepared to do to anybody who interferes with her ambitions.
She is the leading threat to world peace and safety today.
"You really could benefit from psychiatric help, you know"
Too late for that, I'm afraid - he's "infallible, don't forget - someone else with a Messianic Mission.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 02:54 AM

"Maybe Middle eastern oil is no longer of interest to the U.S."

In which case Christmas, my batty little fruit cake, why mention it, or does it have to be mentioned in accordance your little lefty-Stalinist script.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 03:20 AM

Sorry - did that actually mean anything, me little goose-stepper?
America, by announcing her policy in the way it was stated, gave herself the right to extend her action to wherever there are American interests
Isn't your reader up yet - maybe you should leave it till later!
Not one of you bunch of warriors has commented on the comments of the list of Jews who find all this as offensive as the rest of us
no surprise there
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 03:33 AM

And now the USA officially agrees with me - air power alone cannot stop Isis. Come on armchair warriors - how about a battle plan for a solution rather than simply saying "they are Muslims".

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 04:20 AM

If air power can not do it, and the Iraqi and Kurdish forces can not do it, what else is there?

By its charter the UN is bound to intervene to stop genocide.
Sadly, it never has before.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 04:29 AM

On paper US (and allied) ground forces might be some use - after all they spifflicated Saddam Hussein's ground forces who had something of a reputation as desert warriors - but there are several buts. First they would properly need the permission of the legitimate governments of all the territories involved, and second that is likely to involve a deal with Assad (devil, long spoon, etc), and third - is it not going to create more martyrs?

Second option, not an offensive ground war but simply a defensive one - but I am pressed to think of times this has been successful.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 04:31 AM

"By its charter the UN is bound to intervene to stop genocide."
There's always someone ready with a veto, used extensively by the U.s. and Russia, to stop such things happening if it doesn't suit them - maybe it's time they scrapped that right.
Still doesn't acknowledge the 'catch-all' rider added by the U.S. to protect its own interests
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 04:34 AM

I think Richard President Obama was saying that IS in Iraq is an Iraqi problem that they {The Iraqi Government} will have to come up with a solution to that problem - in the meantime the US will respond to the Iraqi Government's request for assistance in the form of supplying air power in support of both military and humanitarian operations.

Interesting map shown on the Beeb yesterday it showed IS "controlled" areas in Syria and in Western Iraq. It would appear that all they really control are lines along certain roads, and that apart from Aleppo in Syria they must be getting tanked there - Assad's forces are winning their battle.

Now should I find myself at the receiving end of the effects of "air power", the very last country I would want to have on my case would be the USA. Using certain parts of Iraq as a live firing area bit by bit over the coming days and weeks IS will find itself paralysed, unable to move anything by road or deploy and use any of these "toys" they have picked up along the way. The reverse will be true for their opponents. Hopefully there will be no intention of capturing the members of this Islamic State they need to be killed, the sooner the better.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 06:16 AM

"they need to be killed, the sooner the better"
What a mind-numbing piece of neanderthal stupidity on all counts
I would have thought that we could have learned from history that executing leaders has the reverse effect of what is trying to be achieved - 1916 Ireland should have thought Britain that
A bunch of religion-driven fanatics just need a bunch of martyrs to pour some petrol into their tank, and the world just needs to see the U.S, behaving just as brutally as Isis.
The Isis leadership should be put on trial bu the International Court of Human Rights, charged with war crimes and when found guilty, sentenced accordingly.
I do hope you wear gloves Terpsichore otherwise your knuckles must get very sore being dragged along the ground.
By the way - if that's what Obama meant, he should have said it and not have us all worrying when the next bunch of Marines were going to parachute into our back gardens
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 06:55 AM

"A bunch of religion-driven fanatics just need a bunch of martyrs to pour some petrol into their tank, and the world just needs to see the U.S, behaving just as brutally as Isis.
The Isis leadership should be put on trial bu the International Court of Human Rights, charged with war crimes and when found guilty, sentenced accordingly."

Kill every single IS "fighter" in existence and not one single person would rise up to avenge them - they are complete scum that not even their own co-religionists want any association with.

Why go to the trouble and expense of trials and incarceration they wish for, above anything else in the world, a "martyrs death" - every possible means in the world should be used to aid them in achieving that goal.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 08:12 AM

"Kill every single IS "fighter" in existence and not one single person would rise up to avenge them"
Yeah sure - just like happened in Ireland!!
You really are a brain-dead thus, aren't you?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 08:38 AM

I don't see that one can execute prisoner ex-combatants without due process, but I don't see much alternative to blasting the crap out of Isis from the air and on land. Air power only will not do the job, and so far local ground forces have proved ineffective.

However, we don't really want most of Iraq and Syria turned into fused glass, and Vietnam for example tends to show that where the enemy can hide in plain sight it can easily strike, vanish, and reappear to strike at will. Yes, I accept there are more trees in Vietnam.

I'm not at all sure that Ireland is an exact parallel, Jim. There the UK was vastly outnumbered on the ground AND the enemy could hide in plain sight. If one put enough forces on the ground against Isis it would probably be possible to take territory - but keeping it and keeping the occupying force safe could easily get a bit like Afghanistan - where I do not doubt that most people would dearly love to be rid of the Taliban and Taliban-alike but are oppressed by the greater firepower and inhuman viciousness that the religious fanatics can muster. Yes, there is some similarity to the IRA but not a huge amount.

What would you suggest, Jim, if land and air firepower cannot largely exterminate Isis?

The situation bears some resemblance to a parent with a delinquent child. How hard do you beat him or her and will it work?

I'd like to see that map, Terribilis. Have you a link?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 10:25 AM

Islamic State insurgents who seized a Lebanese border town this month planned to turn Lebanon into another Iraq by unleashing sectarian war between Sunnis and Shi'ites that would have endangered the nation's very existence, the army commander said.

General Jean Kahwaji told Reuters that radical Islamists on the march in Iraq and Syria still posed a "great threat" to Lebanon, which was torn apart by a 1975-90 civil war and has been badly buffeted by the Syrian conflict.

"The army hit them and continues to, smashing their plan," said Kahwaji, 37 of whose soldiers were either killed or captured in the battle for the border town of Arsal. "But this does not mean that the story is over," he said.

"They might think of another plan and try another time to cause Sunni-Shi'ite strife," said Kahwaji, 60.

The Aug. 2 attack marked the most serious spillover to date of Syria's three-year-old civil war into Lebanon and the first time a foreign invader has taken Lebanese territory since Israel entered the south during its 2006 war with Hezbollah.

Battle-hardened in Syria, the insurgents were members of radical Sunni groups including the Islamic State, which has redrawn the borders of the Middle East by seizing territory in Syria and Iraq. The group's advance has accelerated since it seized the Iraqi city of Mosul in June.

Dozens of the militants were killed in Arsal during a five-day battle with the Lebanese army, according to army estimates. The militants withdrew into the mountainous border zone last Thursday, taking with them 19 captive soldiers.

Kahwaji, dressed in military fatigues, said the Islamists' aim had been to turn the Sunni Muslim town of Arsal into a bridgehead from which to advance on surrounding Shi'ite villages, igniting a sectarian fire storm he said would have destroyed Lebanon.

"The strife in Iraq would have moved to Lebanon - 100 percent," said Kahwaji, a Maronite Christian.

He said he was basing his assessment on the confessions of an Islamist commander whose detention on Aug. 2 was the immediate trigger for the battle. The commander, Emad Gomaa, had been "fine tuning" the plan at the time of his arrest, Kahwaji said.

Gomaa, 30, was a member of the Nusra Front, al Qaeda's affiliate in the conflict, but had recently switched allegiance to the Islamic State. He had previously worked as a purveyor of dairy products, Kahwaji said.

His confessions had led to the arrest of a number of militant cells in different parts of Lebanon, he added.

"Would there have remained a state? It is a battle for the survival of the Lebanese entity," Kahwaji said.

Tensions between Lebanese Shi'ites and Sunnis are already running high, exacerbated by the role played by the powerful Shi'ite group Hezbollah fighting alongside President Bashar al-Assad's forces in Syria.

Lebanese Sunnis have broadly been supportive of the uprising against Assad, a member of the Alawite sect, which is an offshoot of Shi'ite Islam. Lebanon is also now home to an estimated 1.6 million Syrian refugees, most of them Sunnis.

Though its arsenal is more powerful than the Lebanese army's, Hezbollah stayed out of the Arsal battle, wary of wider sectarian strife in a country already hit by suicide bombings, gun battles and rocket attacks linked to the Syrian war.

The arrival of Islamic State fighters waving the group's black flag on the northeastern border triggered panic in a country that is home to many religious groups at risk from a movement that has beheaded and crucified its opponents.

Kahwaji said: "If the world and the people give up, then the black flag will arrive in Lebanon. But the people are with the army and they won't let them arrive."

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 11:01 AM

Source, Bullshot?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 11:05 AM

If you read it you would see that the source was Reuters Greg.
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/08/12/uk-lebanon-security-arsal-idUKKBN0GC0I020140812

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 12:05 PM

Greggie doesn't bother to read things before he lies about them.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 12:07 PM

Clearly true.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 12:42 PM

"I'm not at all sure that Ireland is an exact parallel, Jim."
Sorry Richard - I assumed everyoe knows what happened on Easter Week, 1916.
At the beginning of the week a group of rebels entered the GPO in Dublin, held it for a week and, following a period of bloody fighting, surrendered.
As a national rebellion it was a non-event.
They were regarded as a bunch of eccentrics and the British soldiers had to protect the rebels from an angry crowd of Dubs demanding to know why they weren't "in the trenches, fighting alongside our lads(WW1)".
Most of the rebels were imprisoned in Frongoch, in North Wales, but the leaders were all taken out and summarily executed - the prevailing image of the period is that of James Connolly who was so badly wounded, he had to be strapped into a chair in order to be shot.      
In a matter of months, an "eccentric adventure" had been transformed into a nation-wide war of Independence (more thuggish British brutality), leading to the signing of a treaty within 6 years because of Britain's neanderthal reaction to a valid political uprising.
"When will they ever learn?"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 01:02 PM

"When will they ever learn?"
....that violence is not the best way in a democracy.

Home rule had already been agreed.
Years of bloody civil war was the only result of that "rising."

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 01:28 PM

Oh, God, Jim PLEASE don't start FKWT off on his personal re-interpretation of Irish history. His bullshit about WW I was hard enough to take.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 02:08 AM

Sorry Richard no link the map only appeared on a report by the Beeb and has not been repeated.

Shifting ground for the Islamic State over the past few days:

1: US air support to Iraqi Government Forces and more importantly to the Kurdish Peshmerga Militia

2: US supplies of arms and ammunition to both Iraqi Government Forces and to the Kurdish Peshmerga Militia

3: Deployment of Special Advisors to Kurdish areas - As they did in Afghanistan operating with Northern Alliance forces in the period October to December 2001 they will identify, nominate and "paint" the IS targets to be hit from the air. In Afghanistan the combination of local ground forces, special advisors and air power ran the Taliban and their Al-Qaeda "guests" out of the country in seventy-one days (The Taliban had previously been unsuccessfully trying to defeat the Northern Alliance for seven years).

4: It would appear that the Iraqi Government is starting to get its act together re Nouri Al-Maliki. That will take time but it will be done and then they can proceed against IS "fighters" and any Sunni Tribes inside Iraq who support them.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 02:25 AM

As far as Ireland goes it would appear that Richard and Christmas are talking about two different periods in history.

Richard thought that Christmas was referring to 1969 - 2008, whereas Christmas was talking about 1916 - 1921. Neither comparison is relevant to the Caliphate or the Islamic State.

Tell me Christmas, what has been the response to Abu Bakr Al-Baghdadi's appeal for all Muslims to flock to his newly established "country"? As far as I can see most people do their level best to flee any territory threatened by this wanker and his "forces". Unfortunately IS, who to date have not fought against any rated opposition and who are apparently fleeing the fighting in Syria, are about to come up against the Kurds backed by the best and most experienced air force in the world, it will be an experience that they will not enjoy.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 03:06 AM

So Jim in what way were the Irish events of 1916 or any other time similar to the present situation with ISIS? You seem to make my point for me that the situations are really rather different.

Incidentally, it does indeed appear to be the case that the principle of home rule for Ireland had been accepted, and that the ball was rolling, after the Parliament Acts, by say 1912, so what the 1916 uprising (about which I did know) was remove the possibility of the whole of Ireland ruling itself right to the present day, and delay the possibility of Southern Ireland ruling itself until 1922.

And in any event, across most of Ireland, from long before 1916, English troops were islands in a sea of hostility, as I said.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 03:09 AM

"PLEASE don't start FKWT off on his personal re-interpretation of Irish history"
No intention whatever of doings so Greg - my hearing is far to precarious nowadays to be able to put up with yet another display of his Lambeg drumming.
He has displayed his spectacular ignorance of Irish history enough times in the past to make that particular exercise unnecessary, and his latest offering is more than adequate proof of his partisan approach to the subject.
I raised it to point out the consequences of Terry the Trooper's brutish suggestion of "kill them all and take no prisoners men" - classic comic-book soldiering.
I agree with Richard that there is no alternative to doing what is in the process of being done at the moment, but the idea of deliberately slaughtering them all, makes anybody who would carry out or even suggest such a thing no better than the extremists and it would have the Hydra effect I suggested it would - cut of one head and another would grow.
These people are not an army, they are a dangerous idea - you don't kill them or suppress them out of existence - you make them unsustainable and unnecessary to people they are influencing and oppressing.
Create martyrs en-masse, especially where religion is concerned, and you guarantee that it will survive and spread to fight another day.
God save us all from military half-wits, especially anonymous wannabe ones, crouched behind keyboards in the comfort and safety of their own homes or holding forth at the bar around throwing-out time - peacetime Dad's Armiers all.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 03:44 AM

Report saying some things like wot I sed...

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/08/12/iraq-militants-changing-tactics-complicating-us-airstrike-mission/

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 05:17 AM

Richard, I think Teribus' map is shown here.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-28222872

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 05:26 AM

across most of Ireland, from long before 1916, English troops were islands in a sea of hostility

A large proportion of the young male population volunteered for the British army from 1914 to 1916.
There were no hostilities against English soldiers before that.
Sinn Fein went broke for lack of support.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 06:06 AM

Young Irelander Rebellion?
Irish Republican Brotherhood?
Fenian Brotherhood?
1865 rebellion plans?
12 Feb 1967?
1879 Land War?
Phoenix Park Murders?


And some quotes: -

INTRODUCTION

"'Twas hard for mournful words to frame

To break the ties that bound us,

Ah but harder still to bear the shame

Of foreign chains around us.

And so I said: the mountain glen

I'll seek at morning early

And join the brave united men

While soft winds shake the barley."

Robert Dwyer Joyce (1830 - 1883) "The Wind that Shakes the Barley"

"To break the connection with England, the never-failing source of all our political evils, and to assert the independence of my country - these were my objects."

Wolfe Tone c.1790

"The entire ownership of Ireland, moral and material, up to the sun and down to the centre, is vested of right in the people of Ireland; that they and none but they are the landowners and law-makers of this island."

James Fintan Lalor, 1848

"We declare the right of the people of Ireland to the ownership of Ireland and to the unfettered control of Irish destinies...

...In every generation the Irish people have asserted their right to national freedom and sovereignty; six times during the past three hundred years they have asserted it in arms."

Proclamation of the Irish Republic, 1916.

The English ruling class first invaded Ireland in the twelfth century, when feudal barons staked out their territory. Over the centuries English landlords grew rich at the expense of the Irish people.

A settler population to rule on behalf of the English was established and penal laws kept the Irish in subservience. As well as taxes and rents, Ireland supplied England with farm produce and cheap labour. Famine, evictions and poverty were the lot of Ireland's rural population.

The United Irishmen fought for their country's independence in the wake of the French Revolution. In the nineteenth century the Fenian Brotherhood took up the struggle. Then in the early years of the twentieth century the movement would no longer be denied, though it was fought at every turn by the British establishment.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 06:15 AM

"The English ruling class first invaded Ireland in the twelfth century" - Richard Bridge

12th Century - they would most likely speak "French" and still see themselves as Normans then Richard.

As for the rest - Jayzus ever think of writing a song about all of that?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 06:21 AM

Took. 800 odd posts before Keith got into his "the micks loved us" routine.

I suppose I should congratulate his restraint.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 09:46 AM

Indeed, today's global events seem surreal and fictional in their evilness. The Yazidis of Iraq are facing genocide. Boko Haram and the Taliban continue their reign of terror: Horrifying, brutal, cruel and inhuman terror from beheadings to rape. Where is the outrage in the Muslim world over these atrocities?

I ask this as a Muslim activist who's exhausted, not from defending my faith, but from asking the same question over and over again for the past two decades. When I asked this question in the aftermath of 9/11, I was criticized for being a "fear-monger." Following the 7/7 terrorist attacks in the U.K., I called on the larger Muslim community to "wake up and smell the coffee before it's too late." For this, I was labelled a traitor. Later — as I uncovered and exposed the subversive agendas of Hamas, the Muslim Brotherhood, Al-Qaeda and Hezbollah — I was labelled a heretic.

Raheel Raza: In the Muslim world, silence falls

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 10:17 AM

Should some of that be in quotes? My quotes were specified to be so.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 10:35 AM

"We unequivocally condemn the violence committed by ISIS/L (Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant)."

from here

http://www.mcb.org.uk/muslim-council-of-britain-comments-on-the-situation-in-iraq/

Bigot, Poo-bad?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 10:38 AM

Hopefully there will be no intention of capturing the members of this Islamic State they need to be killed, the sooner the better.

Hmm. I seem to recall people saying similar things about the Taliban a few years ago. Then we found out that many members of the Taliban were actually young men who didn't have a clue about "the politics" who couldn't make money to send to their families any other way. Death is so bloody final, isn't it, in the immortal words of Basil Fawlty. It's always a shame when you kill someone then find out you might have made a mistake.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 12:23 PM

Extremist supporters of Islamic State have been handing out leaflets promoting the establishment of a "Kahlifah" and calling on Muslims to "obey the Kahleef", on the streets central London this week, becoming threatening and abusive when challenged, according to witnesses.

One of the leaflets given out by the supporters calls for Muslims to "spread the Khalifah [caliphate] across the world," forming a new Islamic State governed by an Imam executing Islamic Sharia law.

Asmaa Al-Kufaishi, a British-Iraqi doctor, tweeted images she said were of the group canvassing around the busy shopping area of Oxford Street on Saturday, with materials using symbolism associated with the fundamentalist militant group Islamic State, formerly known as ISIS, which has declared a "caliphate" across parts of Syria and Iraq.

"My sister noticed the circle logo ISIS use on its flags and we then asked them why they were using it," Al-Kufaishi told Newsweek. "Initially they were cagey but then a guy with the ginger beard said there was nothing wrong with ISIS or anything they were doing in Iraq and Syria. That's how it started because I took offence to that and when we questioned him and his colleagues we were abused regarding our Iraqi nationality and the fact we were a different Islamic sect to them. We were told that we were kuffar (non believers) and that we should be killed like those Christians and Muslims in Iraq."

"When asked basic Islamic knowledge they had no idea. They are just a bunch of ignorant people who have used Islam as a way of terrorising others. they honestly didn't have a clue about the basic Islamic teachings and history," she added.

The leaflet says it is the responsibility of Muslims from around the world to pledge "Bayah [religious oath of allegiance] to the Khaleef" and "obey the Khaleef according to the Shariah". The leaflet goes on to argue "all those who can migrate and resettle should migrate", as "Muslims with the help of Allah have announced the re-establishment of the Khalifah".

Ghaffar Hussain, managing director at the Quilliam Foundation told Newsweek that the men handing out the leaflets were well-known extremists from Luton, probably associated with the al-Muhajiroun extremist network.

Hussain, who had spoken to someone who had witnessed the group distributing the leaflets near Oxford Circus on Tuesday but didn't want to speak to journalists, named one of the men as Ibrahim Anderson, formerly known as Roger Anderson, a white British convert to Islam. He said that the group had responded with abuse when challenged by passers-by. Newsweek could not independently verify the identities of those present at the protest.

"This is a very disturbing development but one that should not come as a surprise since we are aware that around 500 British nationals have joined up with ISIS already, said Hussain. "We need to have a zero tolerance policy towards ISIS supporters and recruiters in the UK."

The Metropolitan Police said that they were looking investigating whether the leaflets contained any criminal material but said they were not aware of any threats made against members of the public.

Last month pro-Islamic State supporters were filmed protesting in the Netherlands on two separate occasions in the Hague. This marked the first time the group's black flags were flown in Europe. The Dutch government has since made public displays of the flag illegal.

Last Thursday a banner bearing similar insignia to ISIS was hoisted off the gates of London's Will Crooks estate on Poplar High Street, the Guardian reported.

Islamic State now controls large parts of north and eastern Syria and northern Iraq, and have recently clashed with the Lebanese army, briefly taking a border town in Lebanon. The US has recently launched air strikes against the group to attempt to free thousands of Yazidis that Islamic State had surrounded on a mountain in Iraq, telling them they must convert to Islam or face death.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 01:03 PM

The IS should provoke profound introspection in the Sunni Arab world. Instead, various forms of Baghdadi Denial Syndrome are getting all the attention.

One of the most alarming features of Arab responses to the rise of the Islamic State (IS) in Syria and Iraq is a persistent pattern of neurotic denial in the form of conspiracy theories and other escapist fantasies. But running away from the truth will only complicate the ability of Arab states and societies to comprehend where the IS came from, how it has unexpectedly managed to surge into so much power so quickly, and how it can be effectively countered.

One of the most persistent and widespread delusions is that the IS did not, in fact, emerge from Sunni Muslim communities in Iraq and Syria over the course of the wars there in the past decade. Instead, it is increasingly asserted, the IS is a creature of, and was established by, intelligence services such as the CIA or the Israeli Mossad. An extraordinarily large number of Arabs, Muslims and others appear to have taken refuge in these conspiracy theories. Call it Baghdadi Denial Syndrome.

The most outlandish version circulating online holds that IS leader and "caliph" Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi is, in fact, a Jewish actor named Elliot Shimon, or some such plausibly-Jewish name. Shimon, it's laughably alleged, was trained for a year by the Mossad in various skills, including theology and rhetoric.

Even some who don't embrace this detailed self-parody are still clinging to the notion that Baghdadi and the IS are, somehow, foreign impositions on the Sunni Muslim social and political landscape of Syria and Iraq. An astounding number and range of Arabs, in my own experience in recent weeks, embrace some version of a conspiracy theory holding that the IS and Baghdadi are not what they seem and are, in fact, the creations of Western or Israeli intelligence services.

In a way, this thinking reflects a positive impulse. There is a desire to reject Baghdadi and the IS, and an unwillingness to accept the fact that such vicious malefactors could actually have been organically produced by elements of Syrian and Iraqi society under extreme pressures. Like Arab and Muslim 9/11 conspiracy theories, it begins with a disavowal – "that can't have had anything to do with any of us" – that, rather than producing serious introspection, gives way to denial through conspiracy theory and a terror of the truth.

Hussein Ibish: Baghdadi Denial Syndrome

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 01:17 PM

Source of 13 Aug 14 - 12:23 PM , Bullshot?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 01:19 PM

Faysh Khabur, Iraq (CNN) -- In an exodus of almost biblical proportions, thousands trudge across a river to escape killers belonging to the Islamic State in Iraq and Syria, or ISIS.

Entire families carry nothing but the clothes on their backs. Some are barefoot.

Jamal Jamir, a 23-year-old university student from Sinjar, told CNN his family fled to the barren and windswept Mount Sinjar more than a week ago after ISIS captured their town. The group, which calls itself the Islamic State, has been on a rampage, killing members of various minorities, including Yazidis.

Jamir said after ISIS arrived in his town, Arab neighbors of his turned on the minorities and helped ISIS kill. "They join them, and actually they kill us."

"People you know?" CNN asked.

"Yes," he responded. "People -- our neighbors!"

CNN

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 01:35 PM

I really didn't intend to let Keith loose with his re-written version of Irish history
My example still stands - Irish leadership executed following an unpopular uprising - immediate war of Independence lasting five years up to an unsatisfactory treaty being signed, leading to 70 years of culminating in a bloodbath
Your dates are right Richard - Siege of Waterford.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 01:52 PM

http://www.newsweek.com/islamic-state-supporters-hand-out-leaflets-central-london-promising-dawn-new-era-264158


OK, Greggie boy.

Now YOU can provide the source of YOUR comments.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 02:29 PM

Here it is Greg.
Newsweek 1 day ago.
http://www.newsweek.com/islamic-state-supporters-hand-out-leaflets-central-london-promising-dawn-new-era-264158

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 02:43 PM

Sorry for duplication.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 05:04 PM

Hardly.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 05:24 PM

Hardly what Greg?
You asked for the source, and were given it.
What is your point?
What is the point of you?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 06:12 PM

Top Cat calling, Greg! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 08:12 PM

Breaking News: Defense officials said late Wednesday that United States airstrikes and Kurdish fighters had broken the siege on Mount Sinjar in northern Iraq, allowing thousands of Yazidis trapped there to escape.

NY Times

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 09:25 PM

Muslims Demonstrating Against ISIS

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 11:43 PM

Tut tut, bigot. I gave you the official UK Muslim condemnation of Isis, above.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Aug 14 - 04:42 AM

Yes, you are much better at playground name calling than debating.
If you could argue, you would.
You have nothing to say so its back to naughty words and names, as if you just learned them from the big boys.
You lose.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Aug 14 - 07:33 AM

U.S. air strikes continue against the terrorists of the so-called "Islamic State" -- formerly the "Islamic State of Iraq and Syria" or ISIS -- in the borderlands of Iraqi Kurdistan. American military action has been impelled by the genocidal ISIS threat to Christians and various small Kurdish and other religious minorities, including Yazidis, whose faith is linked to Zoroastrianism, and the ancient monotheistic community of Mandaeans. Meanwhile, questions about the extremist movement and its foreign recruits have spread throughout the Muslim lands and the Muslim minority communities in the West, from Belgium to Australia.

On Monday, August 11, authorities in the Kosovo Republic -- among the most pro-Western Muslim-majority states in the world -- announced the detention of 40 Kosovar citizens suspected of participation in terrorism in Iraq and Syria. The arrests came after raids at 60 locations in the Balkan country, and were carried out under procedures established by the Kosovo Penal Code protecting "constitutional order and security in the Republic."

The individuals jailed were identified only by initials and ages, and comprised eight in the Kosovo capital, Prishtina; seven in the eastern town of Gjilan, near the Serbian border; 11 from Ferizaj in the southeast; five from Prizren in the south; four from Peja in the northwest, and five from Mitrovica in the extreme north. The latter city is divided between Albanians and Serbs. Dates of birth ranged from 1962 to 1994.

Evidence seized included explosives, weapons and ammunition. Kosovo police noted that 16 Kosovar Albanians have been reported killed in fighting in Syria.

According to the Kosovar newspaper of record, Koha Ditore (Daily Times), police said the sweep followed a two-year investigation, which is ongoing. Koha Ditore quoted Sevdije Morina, Kosovo's acting chief special prosecutor, who declared that several local Muslim clerics are also under scrutiny. The same newspaper cited Blerim Isufaj, the prosecutor of the case, saying the majority of the suspects were affiliated with ISIS or Jabhat Al-Nusra, rival splinter groups from al Qaeda.

In Western Europe, alarm over ISIS and its appeal to the local Muslim diaspora emerged after the Brussels attack on the city's Jewish Museum on May 24. Four people were killed in that incident, allegedly by Mehdi Nemmouche, a French Muslim who had fought in Syria. French interior minister Manuel Valls had warned in January that the return of jihadists from distant combat zones to Europe is "the greatest danger that we must face in the coming years." Valls referred to ISIS influence in Muslim minorities as "a phenomenon of unprecedented size."

On August 11, Australia was shocked as its media reported that Khaled Sharrouf, a convicted terror conspirator in that country, who went to Syria last year, had posted an image on his Twitter account of a child believed to be Sharrouf's son holding the severed head of a Syrian soldier.

In between, both in time and space, Albanians were repelled when, on July 31, a Kosovar in the ranks of ISIS, Lavdrim Muhaxheri, posted photographs on his Facebook page of himself decapitating a Syrian soldier.

Muhaxheri has a history in Kosovo of supporting extremists in Syria. On May 12, the Kosovo daily web-portal Express, in a reportage signed by its intrepid investigator of radical Islam, Visar Duriqi, said that Muhaxheri had worked in the official Kosovo Islamic Community apparatus in Kacanik, a city near the southern Kosovo border with Macedonia. In Facebook posts before his atrocity photo was posted, Muhaxheri claimed he controlled the appointment of the imam at the Central Mosque in Kacanik, which has become a center of conflict between Islamist radicals and local traditional Muslims.

Muhaxheri threatened to kill Kacanik clerics as well as politicians and public figures in Kosovo who denounced incitement of young Albanian Muslims to fight in Syria.

As described by the Balkan Investigative Reporting Network (BIRN) on its portal, Balkan Insight, for July 31, Kosovo president Atifete Jahjaga summoned a meeting with security officials of the Balkan republic the day Muhaxheri's Facebook images appeared. She called for "treating this threat to the security of Kosovo as a priority." Jahjaga said, "It is our responsibility as institutions and as a society to condemn these ugly phenomena. We must distance ourselves from these brutal acts of criminals, and we must denounce and treat them as such."

Kosovo justice minister Bajram Rexhepi stated that an international arrest warrant had been issued for Muhaxheri.

The involvement of Albanians in ISIS has not escaped the attention of more influential global commentators. On August 7, David Gardner, a Middle East expert and reporter for the London Financial Times, pointed out that when, at the beginning of the Muslim fasting month of Ramadan, corresponding with the end of June, the "Islamic State" proclaimed its authority over all the Sunni Muslim believers in the world, the text was "translated into English, French, German, Turkish, Russian - and Albanian." Gardner asked, "Why... take the trouble?"

Gardner attributed the appeal of the "Islamic State" for Albanian Muslims to penetration of the Muslim communities in the Western Balkans by Wahhabism, the fundamentalist doctrine originating in Saudi Arabia.

Radio Free Europe reported on August 8 that Naim Maloku, a prominent veteran of the Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA) in the 1998-99 war for the territory, and now a military and security expert, said that Kosovo legal institutions must prevent local citizens from fighting abroad and that the official Islamic Community must be more involved in countering jihadist propaganda. "In their preaching, [Muslim] religious leaders should be more active in their statements," Maloku said.

During the fighting in Gaza, radical voices were heard in Kosovo demanding that Albanians support Hamas. On August 1, the "Islamic Movement to Unite," also known as "Join!," and by its Albanian initials as LISBA, was supported by fewer than 100 people in a pro-Gaza protest held in Prishtina.

Kosovar Albanians are sympathetic, within limits, to the Palestinians. Many Kosovars are bitter about close relations between Serbia and Palestine. Muhammad Nabhan, ambassador of the Palestinian Authority in Belgrade, the Serbian capital, since 1974, has stated repeatedly that Palestinians support Serbian claims to rule in Kosovo and has even denied that Serbia - which invaded and annexed Kosovo in 1912 -- ever "occupied" Kosovo. In 1999, the Palestinian Authority invited the late Slobodan Milosevic to visit Bethlehem for Orthodox Christian Christmas in January 2000. Israel then warned that if the Serbian dictator attempted to cross its borders, he would be arrested and sent to the International Criminal Tribunal for Former Yugoslavia at The Hague. The visit never took place.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 14 Aug 14 - 09:17 AM

I take it the cap fits?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Aug 14 - 11:38 AM

Why?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 14 Aug 14 - 01:51 PM

Brilliant piece about the second democracy in the Middle East that is just around the corner. It also talks about what Israel should do in reaching out to this new democracy.

The author of the article, Ofra Bengio, is an Israeli professor at Tel Aviv University, and she's an expert on Kurdish studies.

Why the Kurds will become the second non Arab state in the Middle East

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Aug 14 - 02:49 PM

BAGHDAD (Reuters) - Islamic State militants are massing near the Iraqi town of Qara Tappa, 122 km (73 miles) north of Baghdad, security sources and a local official said, in an apparent bid to broaden their front with Kurdish peshmerga fighters.

The Sunni militants have made a dramatic push through the north to a position near Arbil, capital of the semi-autonomous Kurdish region.

The movement around Qara Tappa suggests they are getting more confident and seeking to grab more territory closer to the capital after stalling in that region.

"The Islamic State is massing its militants near Qara Tappa," said one of the security sources. "It seems they are going to broaden their front with the Kurdish fighters."

Islamic State has also been using tunnels built by Saddam Hussein in the 1990s to secretly move fighters, weapons and supplies from strongholds in western Iraq to towns just south of Baghdad.

The group, made up of Iraqis, other Arabs and foreign fighters has threatened to march on Baghdad, part of its ambition to redraw the map of the Middle East and impose its radical version of Islam.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 14 Aug 14 - 06:25 PM

An employee of the Dutch Justice Ministry said the jihadist group ISIS was created by Zionists seeking to give Islam a bad reputation.

Yasmina Haifi, a project leader at the ministry's National Cyber Security Center, made the assertion Wednesday on Twitter, the De Telegraaf daily reported.

"ISIS has nothing to do with Islam. It's part of a plan by Zionists who are deliberately trying to blacken Islam's name," wrote Haifi, who described herself on the social network LinkedIn as an activist for the Dutch Labor party, or PvdA.

She later removed her original message, explaining, "I realize the political sensitivity in connection with my work. That was not my intention."

Two right-wing lawmakers have asked the ministry how a person with such views reached a prominent position within the ministry. The lawmakers, Joram van Klaveren and Louis Bontes of the VNL faction, asked whether the minister thought Haifi's employment constituted a security risk.

ISIS, which is considered a terrorist organization in many Western countries, has been in the news in the Netherlands because of a series of pro-ISIS demonstrations in the Hague in July and earlier this month. Some demonstrators called for violence.

Two of the demonstrations, on July 2 and 24, featured calls to kill Jews. When anti-ISIS demonstrators tried to march through the heavily-Muslim neighborhood of Schilderswijk on August 10 to express their disapproval, a crowd of approximately 200 men barricaded the neighborhood's main street and staged an illegal counter-demonstration in support of ISIS.

When riot police tried to remove the obstacles, some of the local protesters hurled stones at them. Six people were arrested.

Dutch Justice Ministry Employees Claims ISIS is a Zionist Conspiracy

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Aug 14 - 06:52 PM

Wouldn't it be interesting to know what proportion of minnow-bobad's and prancing-clown bb's posts are nothing but copy 'n' pastes? It is not debate, gents. It is lazy and tiresome and meaningless unless you have something to say about your links. Not to speak of biased, as, clearly, you select only sources that reinforce your own prejudices. You're doing what the Russians and Chinese used to do in the bad old days, dropping propaganda leaflets on their people or pasting posters up on street walls. Try standing on your own two feet. Your e-leaflets are no more than e-bumwipes.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 14 Aug 14 - 07:00 PM

And your opinions are what is harvested by the bumwipes and flushed to where you and your kind dwell.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 14 Aug 14 - 07:06 PM

Yazidi Kurdish girls being sold by ISIS jihadis for $10. Unbelievable, but Sharia permits taking non-Muslim female POWs as sex slaves.

Yazidis tormented by fears for women and girls kidnapped by Isis jihadis

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Aug 14 - 07:19 PM

Posted in two threads, I note, minnow. You should have worked in Stalin's propaganda department. I won't honour you by also putting in my response twice. There for the finding.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Aug 14 - 07:20 PM

And your opinions are what is harvested by the bumwipes and flushed to where you and your kind dwell.

Even I can't be in two places at once.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Aug 14 - 04:52 AM

Steve,
Not to speak of biased, as, clearly, you select only sources that reinforce your own prejudices.

That last quote about ISIS taking women and girls as sex slaves was from the Guardian on Monday.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Aug 14 - 05:44 AM

Made to do it unpaid at gunpoint, was she, do you think? Then what has sex-slavery got to do with it, you foolish jumped-up little oik? Take your unwanted self off this decent forum, you hear? We don't need stupid smartarses like WendellBum or whevs your stupid name snarling it up. If ever I read a fatuous irrelevant post, that one has to take the all-timeprize.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Aug 14 - 06:27 AM

What! At my age? Nice of you to say so.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Aug 14 - 06:38 AM

Was your last comment a bow drawn at a venture, BTW? Or do you know about my first wife's death?* In which case, what your point, exactly, I wonder?

≈M≈

*If not, google - grosvenor myer suicide -

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Aug 14 - 08:05 AM

BEIRUT (Reuters) - The leader of Lebanese group Hezbollah described the radical Islamist movement that has seized territory in Iraq and Syria as a growing "monster" that could threaten Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and other Gulf states.

Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah, whose group has been helping Syria's President Bashar al-Assad fight a Sunni Islamist-dominated insurgency, said Islamic State could easily recruit in other areas where its hardline ideology exists.

"Wherever there are followers of the ideology there is ground for (Islamic State), and this exists in Jordan, in Saudi Arabia, in Kuwait, and the Gulf states," Nasrallah said in an interview with the Lebanese newspaper Al-Akhbar published on Friday.

Nasrallah, whose group is backed by Shi'ite Muslim power Iran, said Islamic State was encountering resistance in some parts of Iraq and Syria. But he added: "It appears that the capabilities, numbers and capacities available to (Islamic State) are vast and large. This is what is worrying everyone, and everyone should be worried."

Saudi Arabia, a Sunni Muslim monarchy that has been in a state of cold war with Shi'ite Iran and its allies, has shown growing signs of alarm about the spread of Islamic State. Last month, it deployed 30,000 soldiers at its border with Iraq.

Saudi Arabia has also been a major sponsor of the anti-Assad uprising.

Hezbollah's role in Syria has helped Assad beat back the rebellion against his rule in critical areas of the country including Damascus and a corridor of territory stretching north from the capital. But large parts of Syria's less densely populated north and east have fallen to Islamic State.

"This danger does not recognise Shi'ites, Sunnis, Muslims, Christians or Druze or Yazidis or Arabs or Kurds. This monster is growing and getting bigger," said Nasrallah.

Nasrallah reiterated his defence of Hezbollah's role in the Syrian conflict, the focus of criticism from Lebanese opponents who say the group has provoked Sunni militant attacks in Lebanon.

Most recently, insurgents including members of Islamic State seized the town of Arsal at the Syrian border, battling the Lebanese army for five days before withdrawing with 19 soldiers and 17 policemen as captives.

Nasrallah said the insurgents would have advanced as far as the Lebanese coast were it not for Hezbollah's role fighting them in areas of Syria just east of the Lebanese border.

"Going to fight in Syria was, in the first degree, to defend Lebanon, the resistance in Lebanon, and all Lebanese," he said.

A Hezbollah commander was last month killed in Iraq near Mosul, a city seized by Islamic State in June, suggesting the group may also be helping pro-government forces there.

Hezbollah has not officially announced any role in Iraq.

Nasrallah linked the threat posed by Islamic State to the spread of Wahhabism, a puritanical school of Islam followed in Saudi Arabia that demands obedience to the ruler but which has been widely blamed for fuelling Sunni radicalism.

"(Islamic State) does not have borders. There is a real danger and a real fear among many states and authorities, because one of the advantages of this organisation is its capacity to recruit among followers of al Qaeda-Wahhabi thought," he said.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Aug 14 - 08:14 AM

Utah Muslim leaders condemn extremism as Iraqi fears mount
Religion » Islam requires moderation, compassion and tolerance, they say.

By Peggy Fletcher Stack | The Salt Lake Tribune

First Published Aug 14 2014 06:55 pm • Last Updated Aug 14 2014 09:37 pm

Islam is a compassionate and tolerant religion, Utah Muslim leaders say, so any group that terrorizes minorities, beheads children or kidnaps women while claiming to be Muslim would be violating tenets of the faith.

But that is what various news agencies have said Islamic State militants are doing in northern Iraq — attacking Christians and Yazidis (a Kurdish-speaking minority whose faith is linked to ancient Zoroastrianism), while driving thousands from their homes.

The Islamic State has been accused of attempting genocide against the area's religious minorities and committing untold atrocities in its attempt to take over the region.

"If they are persecuting minorities, religious or ethnic, then it is a bogus group and we have no sympathy for it," says Imam Shuaib Din, leader of Utah Islamic Center in Sandy. "If they are killing or allowing the suffering of people who don't agree with them, that goes against the common core of Islam."

The religion would not condone killing anyone, he says, especially for nonbelief.

Din stopped short of outright condemnation of the extremist group by name. He says he doesn't have enough "credible information" about the Islamic State to either critique or condemn it.

Imam Muhammed Mehtar, of the Khadeeja Islamic Center in West Valley City, was also circumspect in assessing the Islamic State's reported actions in Iraq.

Islam is "a moderate religion and a moderate group of people. Moderation is in everything we do," Mehtar says. "To do things that are extreme — whether in manner of hate or love — that is not in Islam."

Moderation, the imam reiterates, "represents our true values, our Muslimness."

Reports from the region around Kurdistan say that Islamic State militants have demanded that Christians and Yazidis either convert to Islam, pay a tax, leave or be killed.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Aug 14 - 08:20 AM

That last quote about ISIS taking women and girls as sex slaves was from the Guardian on Monday.

Yes Keith, and, just last week, the Guardian was rightly vilified for publishing a foul, lying, full-page ad bearing the name of Elie Wiesel. Gosh, nearly typed "weasel" there.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Aug 14 - 08:24 AM

Any more copy 'n' pastes to add, naturally without comment from you, prancing clown?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Aug 14 - 09:03 AM

Former Florida Rep. Allen West declared President Obama an Islamist who is intentionally working against the security of the United States.

"The only plausible explanation for many actions taken by President Obama and his administration is that they are working counter to the security of the United States of America," the former Florida congressman and retired U.S. Army lieutenant colonel wrote in the post published Wednesday.

Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2014/08/14/allen-west-declares-obama-an-islamist/#ixzz3ASvF6qjQ

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Aug 14 - 09:15 AM

Which lunatic asylum does he live in, Greg?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Aug 14 - 09:18 AM

Michael, thank you for sharing your story.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Aug 14 - 09:28 AM

Steve,

Sorry if you don't like cut and pastes- Maybe if you were interested in FACTS instead of your own opinion being discussed you would think otherwise.

If you cannot refute the FACTS that are presented, you are NOT entitled to think your opinion has any more value than anyone else-

If you have NO facts to support your opinion, it's value is far less than those of us who look at the facts FIRST, and THEN have an opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Aug 14 - 10:02 AM

Steve,

"naturally without comment from you, prancing clown?"


SOME of us think that presenting facts AND LETTING THE READER THINK WHAT IT MEANS is more important than telling other what they are supposed to think about some topic.

Too bad you are not among that group. Some of your posts show intelligence- But you fail to use it for any worthwhile purpose.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Aug 14 - 10:22 AM

Welcome, Keith. I actually put it there in response to a further post from that Wendell character, but he appears to have been a troll & his posts have been deleted, so my brief correspondence with him is rather floating there in a vacuum.

Heigh-ho.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Aug 14 - 12:19 PM

Which lunatic asylum does he live in, Greg?

Same one as the Three Mudcat Stooges; BooBad, FKWT & Bullshot.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Aug 14 - 12:21 PM

Sorry, The Islamists ate my cookie; last was me.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 15 Aug 14 - 12:50 PM

Religion...full stop!
Is the problem!

And, the decision to keep "In God We Trust" on your bank notes, will back-fire dreadfully somewhere down the line!

Don't forget the "God in which you trust" is the same God that Muslims prays to!

Referring to ancient texts - in any way - is not the way for a healthy society to run its affairs!

The West will pay dearly for not completely severing all ties with all - and every - religion.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Aug 14 - 02:52 PM

Given what awaits them under ISIS control, no wonder they are taking up arms.





"Hundreds of women stand armed and ready to bring the fight to the Islamic State on behalf of Iraq's Kurdish population.

The women peshmerga of the 2nd Battalion is a group of 550 women led by Col. Nahida Ahmad Rashid, the New York Post reports, which has been preparing for battle.

"It's an honor to be part of a modern Muslim country that allows women to defend the homeland," an unidentified mother in the battalion told the New York Post.

The battalion has not yet faced IS, but has been training in the Kurd city Sulaymaniyah in Northern Iraq.

Another member of the battalion, who is four months pregnant and has a 5-year-old daughter, told the Post she will go to the front lines if called. "This is my duty, no matter if I am bearing a child or not," she said.

According to the New York Post, peshmerga translates to "those who confront death."

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Aug 14 - 03:02 PM

"Don't forget the "God in which you trust" is the same God that Muslims prays to!"

.,,.,.

No. Or, anyhow, not necessarily. This is, in the true sense, begging the question. Whether Allah & Yahweh/Jehovah are to be regarded as cognate/identical, or separate entities at odds with one another, is the question to be established. Remember that to his worshippers, Yahweh is to be revered but loved; while to his, Allah is to be worshipped but feared. Same benign old guy with the long white beard? Shouldn't think so...

So assuming the answer is beginning at the wrong end -- "begging the question", that is, in philosophical terms. This has been a matter of some controversy for quite a long time now -- like 1500+ years.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Aug 14 - 04:15 PM

Well, prancing clown, anyone can copy 'n' paste and leave it without comment and claim it as "fact". But that is just lazy. I'd rather hear people's opinions, frankly. But we might have to let you off in your case, as you're clearly far too bigoted and inarticulate to actually possess an opinion about anything. And that's my opinion, beardie-weirdie goblin.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Aug 14 - 04:22 PM

In 1974, in the pub at Broadford on the Isle of Skye, I saw a circular sign propped up behind the bar, done in faux-yank style, which said around its edge "In God We Trust. The Rest Pay Cash." There was another sign in there that said "Credit available here to over-90s who are accompanied by both parents".

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 15 Aug 14 - 04:31 PM

MGM-Lion, don't talk nonsense!

"Yahweh is to be revered but loved"

Oh yes, this is the God who drowns the whole world ( apart from the Noah's clan) women, babies, innocents!

If anyone is not afraid of that megalomaniac, then they should be!!!!

But, good news, this God is just a fictional character created by ignorant, primitive people!

AND, followed by modern people who can't separate fact from fiction!

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Aug 14 - 12:40 AM

You might be a good Tunesmith, Tunesmith.

But any sort of a theologian is what you are not.

So let it go. You are just making a fool of yourself.

I shall not return to this topic. There is some nice new paint a few doors down for me to go and watch drying.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Aug 14 - 10:32 AM

I shall not return to this topic.

Promise?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Aug 14 - 10:50 AM

I only meant the topic of the relationship, if any, of the variously named deities.

No further promises.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Aug 14 - 01:29 PM

Another massacre of a minority people is reported today.
"At least eighty men" executed, and the women and children dragged off into slavery, victims of cruel, intolerant fanatics whose intention is to expand their caliphate ever wider.

Hundreds of thousands are fleeing for their lives from these brutal killers and slavers.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Aug 14 - 01:36 PM

Hundreds of British people are with Isis.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Aug 14 - 02:01 PM

Some reports say 350 Yazidis massacred and a thousand women and children abducted.
Also reports of seven hundred executed by ISIS in Syria.

The horror goes on.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Aug 14 - 02:32 PM

FKWT sems to have caught Bullshot's serial postarrhoea. Didn't realize it was communicable.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 16 Aug 14 - 04:10 PM

Greg F. - About a month or so ago you asked me, in essence, why I seemed to pick more on your posts as opposed to those of others. I didn't answer then, because I didn't want to get into a peeing contest with you, although I thought and and still think, I had good reason for calling you out. I have now decided to answer your complaint.

I have just finished reviewing all of your posts, to date, for the month of August. While I did not actually quantify them, it appears that the overwhelming majority (perhaps up to 90%) do not add to the discussions, or in anyway move them forward. You primarily try obstruct discussion by getting in zingers and snide remarks. Most of us, from time to, have done so; but with you it is a 'modus operandus'.

So as my grandmother (of blessed memory) might have said, "Stop being a 'nudge', be a 'mensch'."
Nudge (pronounced 'noodj') is a pest. Mensch is a gentleman (or a good boy in her Yiddish world.).

With all respect due, JotSC

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: pdq
Date: 16 Aug 14 - 04:42 PM

"all respect due"


That's not enough to fill the bladder of a piss ant.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Aug 14 - 03:49 AM

Cameron, the British Prime Minister has said that "The West is embroiled in a generational struggle against a poisonous brand of Islamic extremism that will bring terror to the streets of Britain unless urgent action is taken to defeat it,"

He warns that Britain will have to use its "military prowess" to help defeat "this exceptionally dangerous" movement, or else terrorists with "murderous intent" will target people in Britain.


The Prime Minister says he fears the struggle will last "the rest of my political lifetime".

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Aug 14 - 03:57 AM

And yet boobies of the likes of Mr Mouthie-Mather keep posting mockery of me, for saying that I am not an 'Islamophobe' but am just plain scared of Islamism — silly comments like how I had better go to bed with the sheet over my head, or such, just in case the might be a Muslim in the vicinity.

Well, my dears: if it's good enough for our Prime Minister to be scared...

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Aug 14 - 08:27 AM

About a month or so ago you asked me, in essence, why I seemed to pick more on your posts as opposed to those of others.

No John, I did not. I really don't give a fart in a high wind about you and/or your opinion way or the other. As MY grandmother WOULD have said: You're a real a putz.

Have a nice day.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 17 Aug 14 - 03:48 PM

"No John, I did not."--Greg F.

Well, as they say in sports, "Let's roll the tape."

*****
Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F. - PM
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 02:46 PM

Funny you don't get on your high horse when FW Keith & BooBad do this; its their stock & trade.
[this response to my criticism of your earlier post]
*****

So, Greg F, you did not ASK me anything...my bad. But your comment implies that I pick on you, and had I looked up your actual post prior to my comment of yesterday, I would have phrased mine differently. Otherwise I stand by what I wrote.

Finally, if your grandmother really would have used the P word, well I guess the apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

Hope you're having (you've had) a good Sunday.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 17 Aug 14 - 07:43 PM

Tunesmith is right on target. Archeologists and Oceanographers have studied the Persian Gulf north of the Strait of Hormuz and find evidence of settlements that were submerged after the glacial debris that had piled up at Hormuz eroded through and allowed water to rush into the marshy lowlands. I imagine the effect was rather the reverse of the draining of Lake Bonneville down the now Snake River (leaving behind the Great Salt Lake). Water moves into areas and floods (and becomes the thing of epic stories, like Noah's Arc) or it opens up regions (like scouring huge valleys and now-dry waterfalls in the Columbia River basin). Science often comes along and fills in the gaps where imagination and religion filled the void until the truth was discovered.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Aug 14 - 09:40 PM

But your comment implies that I pick on you,

No, John it does not - or perhaps it does only in what passes for your mind.

What it DOES do is highlight your willingness to look the other way when idiots post nonsense that agrees with your mindset.

And hey, a putz is a putz. Andyou obviously qualify

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Aug 14 - 12:26 AM

I don't usually read Greg.F's posts on principle -- life just too short for such a malevolent little gnome to impinge on any decent person's consciousness. But I happen to have read this last one (I'm no more obliged to be entirely consistent than anyone else), which confirms the views expressed by several above: that he is all bland self-satisfied assertiveness with not a jot or scintilla of any sort of intellectual argument, and can safely be ignored to go on chuntering away to himself. Why any sensible person wastes time trying to engage him in rational argument [a concept entirely alien to what passes for his 'intelligence'], I cannot imagine.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Aug 14 - 09:49 AM

BEIRUT/AMMAN (Reuters) - The Islamic State militant group has executed 700 members of a tribe it has been battling in eastern Syria during the past two weeks, the majority of them civilians, a human rights monitoring group and activists said on Saturday.

The Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, which has tracked violence on all sides of the three-year-old conflict, said reliable sources reported beheadings were used to execute many of the al-Sheitaat tribe, which is from Deir al-Zor province.

The conflict between Islamic State and the al-Sheitaat tribe, who number about 70,000, flared after the militants took over two oil fields in July.

"Those who were executed are all al-Sheitaat," Observatory director Rami Abdelrahman said by telephone from Britain. "Some were arrested, judged and killed."

Reuters cannot independently verify reports from Syria due to security conditions and reporting restrictions.

Proclaiming a 'caliphate' straddling parts of Iraq and Syria, Islamic State has swept across northern Iraq in recent weeks, pushing back Kurdish regional forces and driving tens of thousands of Muslims, Christians and members of the Yazidi religious minority from their homes, prompting the first U.S. air strikes in Iraq since the withdrawal of American troops in 2011.

The insurgents are also tightening their grip in Syria, of which they now control roughly a third, mostly rural areas in the north and east.

An activist in Deir al-Zor who spoke on condition of anonymity told Reuters that 300 men were executed in one day in the town of Ghraneij, one of the three main towns of the al-Sheitaat tribal heartland, when Islamic State stormed the town earlier this week.

Another opposition activist from Deir al-Zor said residents of al-Sheitaat towns had been given three days to leave.

"Those who were executed during the storming of the al-Sheitaat area are around 300. The rest were killed in the course of the battles," he told Reuters on condition of anonymity to protect his identity.

Civilians fleeing al-Sheitaat towns had either taken sanctuary in other villages or travelled to Iraq, he said.

More than 170,000 people have been killed in Syria's civil war, which pits overwhelmingly Sunni Muslim rebels against President Bashar al-Assad, a member of the Shi'ite-derived Alawite minority, backed by Shi'ite militias from Iraq and Lebanon.

The insurgency is split between competing factions in Syria, with Islamic State emerging as the most powerful.

Tribal powers in Syria and Iraq have had to make the choice between fighting Islamic State or pledging allegiance.

On Friday, a video posted on YouTube showed men who said they were from the al-Sheitaat towns of Kishkeih and Abu Hammam pledging full support for Islamic State.

"We say that what Islamic State stands for is justice," a tribal member sitting in a room with dozens of other men said in a statement that was read out.

The head of the al-Sheitaat tribe, Sheikh Rafaa Aakla al-Raju, called in a video message for other tribes to join them in the fight against the militants.

"We appeal to the other tribes to stand by us because it will be their turn next ... If (Islamic State) are done with us the other tribes will be targeted after al-Sheitaat. They are the next target," he said in the video, posted on YouTube.

Islamic State was condemned on Friday in a U.N. Security Council resolution for "gross, systematic and widespread abuses of human rights and violations of international humanitarian law."

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Mrrzy
Date: 18 Aug 14 - 10:45 AM

Is Noah's arc the direction thread drift is taking?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Aug 14 - 10:47 AM

I hope not. That deserves it's own thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Aug 14 - 10:55 AM

Stevie boy,

And MY opinion is that you have not been able to FIND any facts that support your stated viewpoint, and thus object when others do so.


If you don't like the contents of my posts, PROVIDE US WITH SUPPORTED FACTS to support YOUR viewpoint, or admit you are making judgements in the absence of evidence.

Calling names does NOT prove that your opinion has any wrath at all- Just that you have failed to provide any basis other than your bigotry to support it.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Aug 14 - 12:25 PM

So, Keith, now you have heard it twice. Responsible Islam condemns the actions of ISIS. Why do you carry on trying to tar all Muslims with the same brush? Is there a reason other than bigotry?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Aug 14 - 12:28 PM

You nailed it, Richard.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Aug 14 - 12:54 PM

"So, Keith, now you have heard it twice."

Where?

"Responsible Islam condemns the actions of ISIS"

Mandy Rice-Davies pouring from a chocolate teapot. Anyhow, where?, again.

"Why do you carry on trying to tar all Muslims with the same brush?"

Where? yet again.

"You nailed it, Richard."

Oh?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Aug 14 - 01:01 PM

Everyone condemns the actions of ISIS......until the knife is to the throat, or they become more powerful than your faction.....then you join them or die.

The world at present is in the balance, I hope the balance does not fall to the Muslim side.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Aug 14 - 01:04 PM

So, Keith, now you have heard it twice. Responsible Islam condemns the actions of ISIS. Why do you carry on trying to tar all Muslims with the same brush?

I do not, and never have.
British Imams unanimously condemned ISIS, as I did not doubt they would.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Aug 14 - 01:17 PM

"I hope the balance does not fall to the Muslim side."
.,,.

If it doesn't, it will be no thanks to this gaggle of sleepwalking ostriches...

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Aug 14 - 01:22 PM

IRBIL, Iraq (AP) — Islamic extremists shot scores of Yazidi men to death in Iraq, lining them up in small groups and opening fire with assault rifles before abducting their wives and children, according to an eyewitness, government officials and people who live in the area.

A Yazidi lawmaker on Saturday cited the mass killing in Kocho as evidence that his people are still at risk after a week of U.S. and Iraqi airstrikes on the militants.

Meanwhile, warplanes targeted insurgents around a large dam that was captured by the Islamic State extremist group earlier this month, nearby residents said.


In a statement, U.S. Central Command said the airstrikes Saturday were launched under the authority to support humanitarian efforts in Iraq, as well as to protect U.S. personnel and facilities.

Central Command says the nine airstrikes conducted so far had destroyed or damaged four armored personnel carriers, seven armed vehicles, two Humvees and an armored vehicle.

The U.S. began airstrikes against the Islamic State extremist group a week ago, in part to prevent the massacre of tens of thousands of Yazidis in northern Iraq. They fled the militants by scrambling up a barren mountain, where they got stranded. Most were eventually able to escape with help from Kurdish fighters.

Islamic State fighters had surrounded the nearby village 12 days ago and demanded that its Yazidi residents convert or die. On Friday afternoon, they moved in.

The militants told people to gather in a school, promising they would be allowed to leave Kocho after their details were recorded, said the eyewitness and the brother of the Kocho mayor, Nayef Jassem, who said he obtained his details from another witness.

The militants separated the men from the women and children under 12 years old. They took men and male teens away in groups of a few dozen each and shot them on the edge of the village, according to a wounded man who escaped by feigning death.

The fighters then walked among the bodies, using pistols to finish off anyone who appeared to still be alive, the 42-year-old man told The Associated Press by phone from an area where he was hiding. He spoke on condition of anonymity, fearing for his safety.

"They thought we were dead, and when they went away, we ran away. We hid in a valley until sundown, and then we fled to the mountains," he said.

A Yazidi lawmaker, a Kurdish security official and an Iraqi official from the nearby city of Sinjar gave similar accounts, saying Islamic State fighters had massacred many Yazidi men Friday after seizing Kocho.

All of them said they based their information on the accounts of survivors. Their accounts matched those of two other Yazidi men, Qassim Hussein and Nayef Jassem, who said they spoke to other survivors.

It was not clear precisely how many men were killed. Iraqi and Kurdish officials said at least 80 men were shot. Yazidi residents said they believed the number was higher, because there were at least 175 families in Kocho, and few were able to escape before the militants surrounded their hamlet.

Jassem said he was in touch with two wounded men, including a cousin, who fled the village. They called Jassem from the phone of a sympathetic shepherd and described what happened. On Saturday morning, Jassem's cousin called again, pleading for help.

"I can't walk, and we will die," Jassem said his cousin told him, his voice breaking. The 55-year-old said he called Yazidi rebels in the mountains, pleading with them to try to save the men. "They need first aid. Send them a donkey they can sit on, something to carry them." But Jassem said his cousin was a six-hour walk from the rebels and would die before help came. By evening, he lost contact with his relative.

The Yazidis are a centuries-old religious minority viewed as apostates by the Islamic State, which has claimed mass killings of its opponents in Syria and Iraq, often posting grisly photos online.

Yazidi lawmaker Mahma Khalil said the Yazidis in Kocho were given the choice to abandon their religion for that of the fighters. When they refused, "the massacre took place," he said.

Halgurd Hekmat, a spokesman for Kurdish security forces, said the militants took the women and children of Kocho to a nearby city.

Elsewhere in northern Iraq, residents living near the Mosul Dam told the AP that the area was being targeted by airstrikes.

The extremist group seized the dam on the Tigris River on Aug. 7. Residents living near the dam, which is Iraq's largest, say the airstrikes killed militants, but that could not immediately be confirmed. The residents spoke on condition of anonymity out of fears for their safety.

Tens of thousands of Yazidis fled earlier this month when the Islamic State group captured the town of Sinjar, near the Syrian border.

The plight of the Yazidis motivated U.S. and Iraqi forces to launch aid drops. It also contributed to the U.S. decision to launch airstrikes against the militants, who were advancing on the Kurdish regional capital Irbil.

But the Islamic State group remains in control of vast swaths of northeastern Syria and northern and western Iraq, and the scale of the humanitarian crisis prompted the U.N. to declare its highest level of emergency earlier this week.

Some 1.5 million people have been displaced by fighting since the Islamic State's rapid advance began in June.

The decision to launch airstrikes marked the first direct U.S. military intervention in Iraq since the last troops withdrew in 2011 and reflected growing international concern about the extremist group.

Khalil, the Yazidi lawmaker, said the U.S. must do more to protect those fleeing the Islamic State fighters.

"We have been calling on the U.S. administration and Iraqi government to intervene and help the innocent people," Khalil said. "But it seems that nobody is listening."

The United States was not alone in its efforts to ease the dangers in the region.

On Saturday, Britain's Ministry of Defense said it deployed a U.S.-made spy plane over northern Iraq to monitor the humanitarian crisis and movements of the militants. The converted Boeing KC-135 tanker, called a Rivet Joint, was to monitor mobile phone calls and other communication.

Germany's Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier was in Baghdad on Saturday, where he announced his government would provide more than 24 million euros ($32.2 million) in humanitarian aid to Iraq.

Also Saturday, two British planes landed in the Kurdish regional capital of Irbil carrying humanitarian supplies.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Aug 14 - 07:39 PM

Well, Metro Goldwyn Sheep, your post of 12.54 has absolutely nothing to say. Tell me: why do you bother?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Aug 14 - 02:02 AM

It was, if you look, Hen, in response to another post which asserted facts/opinions contained notionally in previous posts which didn't immediately appear locatable, so I was asking for some more precise refs. It wasn't ∴ trying to 'say' anything, in the sense of making a statement, but was interrogative. So what is your po·faced denunciation of it supposed to be 'saying'?

You needn't 'bother' to respond as I don't give a flying one for your piddling reactions in this instance.

But Best Regards in a general way as usual, of course

~The~

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Aug 14 - 08:01 AM

Riyadh (AFP) - Saudi Grand Mufti on Tuesday blasted Al-Qaeda and Islamic State jihadists as "enemy number one" of Islam, in a statement issued in Riyadh.

"The ideas of extremism, radicalism and terrorism ... have nothing to do with Islam and (their proponents) are the enemy number one of Islam," the kingdom's top cleric said.

He cited jihadists from the Islamic State, which has declared a "caliphate" straddling parts of Iraq and Syria, and the global Al-Qaeda terror network.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Aug 14 - 08:16 AM

15 Shocking Numbers That Will Make You Pay Attention To What ISIS Is Doing In Iraq
The Huffington Post         | By Nick Wing & Carina Kolodny
Email
Posted: 08/11/2014 10:57 am EDT Updated: 08/11/2014 1:59 pm EDT Print Article

Over the past few months, the Islamic State, an al-Qaeda offshoot formerly known as ISIS, has mounted a brutal campaign in Syria and Iraq that has allowed it to expand its ranks and win large swaths of new territory. With the stated goal of establishing a Sunni caliphate -- or an Islamic state governed by a religious figurehead -- the insurgent group's fighting has taken a heavy toll on Iraq's Shiite Muslim majority, as well as a number of minority groups, including Kurds and Christians.

While reports of the Islamic State carrying out mass executions, placing heads on fence posts and imposing harsh religious restrictions have sparked concern across the world, they haven't elicited military involvement until now. Over the weekend, U.S. warplanes began bombing Islamist fighters following an announcement by President Barack Obama that he had authorized airstrikes to prevent "genocide."

In light of the recent news, here's an update on the militant group by the numbers:
13,000
The number of square miles thought to be under Islamic State control, a stretch between Syria and Iraq that is roughly the size of Belgium. Other estimates suggest the Islamic State controls an area closer to 35,000 square miles, or roughly the size of Jordan.

1,922
The number of people killed in Iraq in June, according to government figures, making it the deadliest month since May 2007. Official figures report 1,393 civilians, 380 soldiers and 149 policemen among the dead. Another 2,610 people were wounded, the majority of them civilians.

30,000 - 50,000
The number of militants now fighting with the Islamic State, according to a recent estimate by Dr. Hisham al-Hashimi, an expert on the group. Many former Iraqi Army soldiers have been forced to join and others have been recruited from around the region and beyond.

5
The number of nations with which the Islamic State has engaged in direct fighting. In an effort to expand its holdings, insurgents have attacked soldiers from Iraq, Iran, Lebanon, Syria and Turkey this summer alone. The group is currently pursuing a large offensive against the Syrian Arab Army in the northeast of the country, snatching up large quantities of munitions from military bases.

$2,000,000,000
The approximate value of the Islamic State's cash and assets, according to estimates from terrorism experts. In the midst of its most substantial campaign in June, Islamic State fighters captured the city of Mosul, looting hundreds of million of dollars from banks and acquiring hundreds more in military assets from the Iraqi Army.

$3,000,000
The estimated daily revenue of the Islamic State, from its oil and gas resources alone. Fighters with the group have taken control of oil and gas fields across northern Iraq and Syria, and it "now controls a volume of resources and territory unmatched in the history of extremist organizations," according to Janine Davidson of the Council of Foreign Relations.

3
The number of high-profile jailbreaks carried out by Islamic State forces in the past several months, which led to the freeing of at least 1,500 insurgents, likely including leaders, bomb makers and other militants, according to reports. In an apparent response to these incidents and widespread brutality by Islamic State fighters, Human Rights Watch accused Shiite militia members and other Iraqi Army soldiers last month of having illegally executed at least 255 Sunni prisoners in at least five different massacres.

0
The number of openly practicing Christians thought to be left in the city of Mosul, where the Islamic State has made Christianity punishable by death. While it's impossible to know if Islamic State militants have actually chased every Christian out of the city, recent reports suggest that all remaining Christians had fled Mosul.

Up to 40,000
The number of civilians initially estimated to have been trapped on Mount Sinjar last week after the Islamic State captured the town of Sinjar, near the Kurdish region in northern Iraq, and drove people out of the surrounding areas. While at least 20,000 were reportedly rescued over the weekend by Kurdish rebels from neighboring Syria, the remaining Yazidis are still trapped.

At least 500
The number of Yazidis killed so far by Islamic State fighters in northern Iraq. An Iraqi government minister told Reuters on Sunday that militants had buried some of the Yazidis alive, while they killed others in a mass execution.

At least 300
The number of Yazidi women taken as slaves by the Islamic State, according to human rights minister Mohammed Shia al-Sudani. Sudani said there are still concerns that many of the victims will be moved outside of the country, which would make it harder to rescue them. Recent reports also suggest that at least two women were publicly stoned to death by the Islamic State, one of whom faced the punishment for adultery.

500,000
According to a 2011 report in Water Power magazine, this is the number of civilians who could die if the Mosul Dam, the largest dam in Iraq, stops working. Late last week, the Islamic State reportedly seized the dam, which lies on the Tigris River and provides power and water to Mosul and other parts of the region. It requires extensive engineering work to remain operational. It remains unclear what the Islamic State intends to do with it, but simply neglecting the required upkeep would potentially lead to large-scale structural failure.

65
The amount of water (in feet) that would roar toward the city of Mosul if the Islamic State decided to destroy the Mosul Dam, or if were to suffer a catastrophic collapse for any other reason, according to a 2007 letter from U.S. generals stressing the need to secure the dam.

1,500,000
The estimated population of Erbil, the capital of Iraqi Kurdistan. This number includes an unknown number of foreign workers, some of whom are American military personnel who were dispatched earlier this summer to aid Kurdish Peshmerga fighters in their resistance efforts against the Islamic State. On Saturday, American warplanes began launching airstrikes to help Kurdish forces fighting to defend Erbil.

2
The number of towns reclaimed by Kurdish forces on Sunday following U.S. airstrikes to protect the area from Islamic State militants.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Aug 14 - 10:38 AM

Lebanon's Hezbollah kills top jihadist in Syria: NGO
AFP
4 hours ago

Beirut (AFP) - Fighters from Lebanon's Hezbollah have killed a top jihadist from the Islamic State group in Syria who allegedly planned bloody attacks in Lebanon, a monitoring group said on Tuesday.

The Syrian Observatory for Human Rights said Hezbollah fighters had killed Abu Abdullah al-Iraqi in the Qalamun region in Syria, near the border with Lebanon.

He "was one of the officials in the Islamic State in charge of preparing suicide attacks", the group said.

"He was killed by a roadside bomb planted by Hezbollah that detonated as his vehicle passed by," the NGO added, saying three other jihadists were also killed in the blast.

Hezbollah's Al-Manar television station meanwhile reported Iraqi's death, but said he had been killed by the Syrian army.

"The Islamic State official Abu Abdullah al-Iraqi has been killed in a Syrian army operation in Qalamun," al-Manar said.

"He was in charge of preparing suicide bombers and the cars used in bomb attacks including those carried out in Lebanon," the station said, broadcasting a photo said to be of Iraqi's bloodied head.

Lebanon's Shiite Hezbollah movement is a close ally of the Syrian regime and has been fighting alongside government troops against an uprising there for more than a year.

Its involvement has helped the army to recapture key territory, but drawn the ire of many in Lebanon, where Hezbollah strongholds have been targeted multiple times by suicide and car bomb attacks.

The attacks have been claimed by jihadist groups who threatened to continue so long as Hezbollah remains in Syria.

In mid-April, the army and Hezbollah took control of most of the Qalamun region, but pockets of opposition fighters, including jihadists, remain in the mountainous border area there between Syria and Lebanon.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Aug 14 - 03:39 PM

The Islamic State is vowing retribution should U.S. airstrikes hit their militants.

According to Reuters, a newly released video by the Islamic State shows a picture of an American man who had been beheaded in Iraq during the initial U.S. invasion with a caption that translated into English reads, "we will drown all of you in blood."

The Islamic State has focused on its goal of establishing a caliphate by seizing land in Iraq in Syria before launching any potential attacks on the West. Osama Bin Laden famously warned of the risks of establishing a caliphate too early, writing in a document seized in the raid on his compound in Abbottabad, Pakistan that an Islamic State could have the adverse affect of dividing the Sunni population.

While Sunnis alienated by the Shia government of Nouri al-Maliki have actually helped the Islamic State's swift march through the northern part of the country, many suggest that defeating the Islamic State will only come with Sunni support.

In the meantime U.S. airstrikes have helped Kurdish and Iraqi Army forces take back some territory in the northern part of the country that had been seized by ISIL. On Monday, the Iraqis regained control of the strategically important Mosul Dam, which has previously been referred to as "the most dangerous dam in the world."

Part of the U.S. offensive in Iraq involves targeting millions of dollars of its own equipment given to the Iraqi Army during the U.S. occupation and later seized by Islamic State militants after they seized two Iraqi military bases this summer. According to Reuters, some of the hardware the U.S. is attempting to destroy includes M1 Abrams tanks (about $6 million per), Mine-Resistant Ambush Protected Vehicles (about $1 million per), and 53 M198 Howitzer cannons ($527,337 per).

Reuters estimates that the U.S. spends somewhere between $84,000 and $104,000 to destroy between $1 and $12 million of its own military hardware per airstrike.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Aug 14 - 04:25 PM

So now we know that ISIS are arseholes, and that several responsible Islamic sources condemn them. ISIS do not typify Islam. We all condemn them.


Is there any more to be said or do Keith and fellow travellers (oh, sorry, you don't like them either do you?) STILL want to try to tar all Muslims with the same brush?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Aug 14 - 04:40 PM

It's called unprincipled opportunism, Richard. And it's utterly unfair to the billion-plus Muslims in this world who want nothing more than peace and security.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Aug 14 - 04:46 PM

Of course it would be Steve.

So, Keith, now you have heard it twice. Responsible Islam condemns the actions of ISIS. Why do you carry on trying to tar all Muslims with the same brush?

I do not, and never have.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Aug 14 - 05:00 PM

Which is why you constantly try to deflect us to "stuff that Muslims do over the border that's much worse than anything Israel does". Come off it, Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Aug 14 - 08:08 PM

Hey, FKWTS is FKWTS, Steve. He can't help himself.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Aug 14 - 08:29 PM

So true, Greg.

Good interview on Newsnight tonight, Kirsty meets Daniel Barenboim. Daniel has ruffled many a feather in Israel over the years (I never agreed with him over his insistence on playing the music of that ultimate antisemite, Wagner, in Israel), but he has more than legitimised his stance by dint of his founding, with Edward Said, of the West-Eastern Divan Orchestra, composed of young musicians from Palestine and Israel and beyond.

Quoth Daniel: The Divan is not a love story, and it is not a peace story. It has very flatteringly been described as a project for peace. It isn't. It's not going to bring peace, whether you play well or not so well. The Divan was conceived as a project against ignorance. A project against the fact that it is absolutely essential for people to get to know the other, to understand what the other thinks and feels, without necessarily agreeing with it. I'm not trying to convert the Arab members of the Divan to the Israeli point of view, and [I'm] not trying to convince the Israelis to the Arab point of view. But I want to – and unfortunately I am alone in this now that Edward died a few years ago – ...create a platform where the two sides can disagree and not resort to knives.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 03:24 AM

you all seem to intentionally miss the point, "responsible Islam" can very quickly change to "radical Islamism", given the right conditions.

How do you think the ISIL faction made such swift and rapid advances?
Anyone who follows a religion which is so intolerant of other religions, is an easy convert to radicalism, or at least tacit acceptance of radicalism.

When they are further encouraged by the knife at the throat, there is no further argument.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 04:19 AM

Which is why you constantly try to deflect us to "stuff that Muslims do over the border that's much worse than anything Israel does". Come off it, Keith

I do not do that.
I just contrast the outrage and ask why the difference, when the carnage is so much worse on the other side of Israel.

Gaza is a big issue and I contribute to the discussion, while you people even subvert other discussion to Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 08:59 AM

"responsible Islam" can very quickly change to "radical Islamism", given the right conditions.

Yup- just like "responsible Christianiity".

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 09:12 AM

Isis- "one of thousands of Islamic militant groups" (NYTimes) beheads another. But by all means lets keep pretending all religions are alike

    — Bill Maher (@billmaher) August 20, 2014

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 09:51 AM

Greg, I don't think you deserve many of the responses you get, but it is just not reasonable to equate the actions of fundamentalist Christians, with the actions of radical Islamists.
Please stop insulting people and start using you brain in a positive manner.

The Islamists believe that all who oppose them, or blaspheme against them should be put to death.
No Christian could hold such beliefs and remain a Christian.

Without doubt we are facing a great danger, and one which we will ultimately lose through weakness. Our society is corrupt and debauched, we have lost our values and sense of direction.....we have no example to show the madmen.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 10:19 AM

Your first clause is the point, Ake. "Deserve" is the word; as in the incomparable Jane Austen's formulation, "she did not think he deserved the compliment of rational opposition."

He is short on real argument, but long on mere assertion. A troll who should not be fed, IMO. Why not just leave him to chunter away to his stupid self?

Thus another germane quotation to adduce: Beatrice to Benedick in first scene of Much Ado About Nothing: "I wonder you would still be talking, Signor Benedick. Nobody marks you."

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 11:02 AM

No Christian could hold such beliefs and remain a Christian.

Sorry Ake, but there's plenty of folks that CALL themselves "Christians" and DO hold such beliefs.

Just as there are plenty of folks who CALL THEMSELVES Muslims & do so.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 11:28 AM

So, we see Akenaton and Michael both saying that Muslims are all potential terrorists now. Michael not able to tell the difference between a newsagent in The UK and a member of The Taliban in Afghanistan, and Akenaton saying responsible Islam can turn to radical Islam or some such nonsense, whilst ignoring the Christians who kill for their superstition.

Fucking disgusting

His rambling nonsense on Christians is as funny to read as it must have been embarrassing to type. Hey Worm! You might wish to become a Muslim yourself! Like Christians, they are taught to hate gay dudes! But like anybody who is culturally religious, the vast majority live and let live.

By the way, you have already lost. I'll chuck the first stone at you when I come up to Inveraray in a couple of weeks time.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 11:54 AM

A troll who should not be fed, IMO.

Then why dost thou continue to do so, Leon?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 01:47 PM

to be rather more succinct M, Greg can be a right pain in the balls at times, but he has been here a long time and CAN make valid points when he wants to.

He has strong views and says it like he sees it, but he is not a phoney smart arse like our mutual friend.

Greg and Ian might seem similar in M.O., but they inhabit completely different universes.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 02:20 PM

Socialist French President Francois Hollande said Wednesday he would arrange a conference next month on the threat posed by Takfiri extremists in Iraq, describing the current international situation as "the most serious since 2001".

"I think we are in the most serious international situation since 2001..."

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 02:26 PM

"No Christian could hold such beliefs and remain a Christian."
This was an essential part of Christianity for many centuries - not just Christian versus non Christian, but Christians who kicked with the wrong foot.
Not so long ago a leading churchman being questioned on the Inquisition not only justified the deaths that had occurred over the centuries of its existence, but he said that, should it be necessary, he could see no reason why it should not happen again.
The killing of non-believers is an essential part of many religions including Christianity.
The only thing that has changed if the opportunity to carry out such a doctrine.
Prior to the start of World War One, 'Gallant little (Christian) Belgium didn't blink an eye when its government and commerce slaughtered 10 million 'heathen blacks' (Congolese) in pursuit of rubber.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 02:43 PM

"Prior to the start of World War One, 'Gallant little (Christian) Belgium didn't blink an eye when its government and commerce slaughtered 10 million 'heathen blacks' (Congolese) in pursuit of rubber."

Come on Jim, you cannot blame the results of greed and avarice on "Christian faith"

Of course there have been horrific things done in pursuit of booty,
Capitalism and colonialism have much to answer for.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 03:48 PM

"Come on Jim, you cannot blame the results of greed and avarice on "Christian faith""
I don't - I blame it on the Christian -and any other church.
The Empires were built on "civilising and Christianising" the world
"God" - whichever god, has been used as a conquering symbol down the ages.
The World War one bloodbath was fought for "God, King and Country" - i that order.
Wars are still fought "with God on our side" - didn't somebody write a song about it?
The written doctrines of Christianity are filled with stoning as a punishment for for sinful women - look up 'The Bad Bible' sometime.
Our moving away from the more primitive side of our religions has been a matter of the church having no choice.
When Belgium carried out its atrocities, it did so in the name of King Leopold (appointed by God" and with the full knowledge and blessing of the Church.
In the 1930s, Mussolini's bombers slaughtered the Abyssinian people with bombs blessed by the Pope.
Give us a break Ake - you claim to be a Marxist
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 07:30 PM

The Guardian reported Wednesday that, according to a former hostage, the British national who acted as executioner in the Foley murder video was one of three U.K. citizens known among jihadists as the "Beatles," who are in charge of holding foreign hostages in the Syrian city of Raqqa.

Shiraz Maher, a senior research fellow at the Center for the Study of Radicalization at King's College London, said he estimates that between 500 and 600 British citizens have gone to fight the Jihad in Syria, with the vast majority of these volunteers joining ISIS. He said that in his field research on the Turkish/Syrian border, rebel fighters have said the British foreign fighters are often the most extreme.

The UK Jihadists who Murdered Foley

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 08:34 PM

Do you have a point?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 05:24 AM

True Jim, the "state" has always sought to USE religion to further its aims, but that reflects badly on a secular establishment, perhaps more so than on a hypocritical "organised religion"?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 06:28 AM

No news of anyone organising protest demonstrations against the perpetrators of these horrific massacres on a scale not seen since the days of Pohl Pot.

The scale dwarfs anything seen involving Israel.
Plenty of demonstrations against Israel though.
What is the difference?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 07:19 AM

" perhaps more so than on a hypocritical "organised religion"?"
Certainly not
Organised religion has never made any bones about putting itself at the disposal of the establishment, particularly that of the far-right Franco - Mussolini- Pinochet.... any tinpot South American dictator you could care to name did what they did with 'God's blessing', and the scriptures were often used to justify their actions "doing God's work'.
Those churchmen unwise enough to stick their head above the parapet were soon given short shrift - the French worker-priest, Romero.... gone in a flash
The genuine faithful were not given the choice
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 08:30 AM

This was posted to Facebook by my friend Tarek Fatah:

"In the gruesome murder of American journalist Foley, it troubles me when I hear Muslims say, "beheading has nothing to do with Islam" and then people like president Obama validate that lie.

How can Muslims deny that Prophet Muhammad himself ordered the beheading of a poet in Mecca who mocked Allah in his poetry? That makes the beheading punishment a Sunnah .

Do we deny that later Muslims would behead the Prophet's dearest grandson and then parade the head through the streets of Damascus ?

Why do we pretend we don't know that centuries later in Baghdad, the agnostic Mansoor Hallaj was beheaded publicly?

Do Muslim leaders not know about Timurlane building pyramids of skulls as Sharia experts cheered him on?

We need to stop lying."

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 02:48 PM

Yeah, yeah, what about the Spanish Inquisition yadda yadda yadda. Fuck it. We've seen enough of this shit. The Yanks must know where these scumbags hide. A few nukes would probably work wonders in the long run.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: robomatic
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 03:31 PM

Guest, Chris B:
"Yeah, yeah, what about the Spanish Inquisition yadda yadda yadda. Fuck it. We've seen enough of this shit. The Yanks must know where these scumbags hide. A few nukes would probably work wonders in the long run. "

People would talk...

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 04:13 PM

The president of the world's most populous Muslim-majority country, Indonesia, on Thursday called the actions of Islamic State militants "embarrassing" to the religion and urged Islamic leaders to unite in tackling extremism.

Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono said the scale of the slaughter wrought by the extremists in overrunning large swathes of Iraq and Syria and the level of violence being used was appalling.

"It is shocking. It is becoming out of control," he said in an interview with The Australian, a day after IS released a video showing a masked militant beheading US reporter James Foley, provoking worldwide revulsion.

"We do not tolerate it, we forbid ISIS in Indonesia," he added, referring to the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant, as IS was formerly known.

"Indonesia is not an Islamic state. We respect all religions."

He urged international leaders to work together to combat radicalisation.

"This is a new wake-up call to international leaders all over the world, including Islamic leaders," he said, adding that the actions of IS were not only "embarrassing" to Islam but "humiliating", the newspaper reported.

"All leaders must review how to combat extremism. Changing paradigms on both sides are needed -- how the West perceives Islam and how Islam perceives the West."

Indonesia is home to the world's biggest Muslim population of about 225 million and has long struggled with terrorism. But a successful clampdown in recent years has seen the end of major deadly attacks.

Jakarta has estimated that dozens of Indonesians have travelled to Syria and Iraq to fight and Yudhoyono said he was concerned about their return, adding that he had tasked agencies to oppose the spread of extremist ideology in the sprawling nation.

"Our citizens here in Indonesia are picking up recruitment messages from ISIS containing extremist ideas," said the president, whose decade in office comes to an end in October.

"The philosophy of ISIS stands against the fundamental values we embrace in Indonesia. Last Friday, in my state of the union address to the nation, I called on all Indonesians to reject ISIS and to stop the spread of its radical ideology.

"My government and security agencies have taken decisive steps to curtail the spread of ISIS in Indonesia, including by prohibiting Indonesians to join ISIS or to fight for ISIS, and also by blocking Internet sites that promote this idea."

- 'Pure evil' -

Indonesia's neighbour Australia has also seen up to 150 of its nationals join the militants, with the photo of an Australian boy holding a severed head in Syria last week sparking global condemnation.

Australian Prime Minister Tony Abbott on Thursday said IS was "as close to pure evil as we're ever likely to find" and what happened to Foley was "sickening".

He also voiced concern that jailed Indonesian militant cleric Abu Bakar Bashir -- the chief ideologue of regional terror network Jemaah Islamiyah -- had pledged allegiance to IS.

JI is blamed for the Bali bombings in 2002, which claimed 88 Australian lives, although a successful crackdown over the past decade has weakened such groups.

"That does indicate the potential for increased terrorist activity in our region," Abbott told reporters when asked about Bashir's pledge.

Bashir, a vocal supporter of Al-Qaeda style jihad, has been in and out of prison for years and is currently serving a 15-year term for funding terrorism.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 04:43 PM

"The Norwegian news portal VG Nett is reporting that a Muslim terrorist group, Ansar al-Sunna', is threatening that if a section of the nation's capitol isn't transformed into a sharia-complaint Muslim nation, an attack rivaling 9/11 will be launched upon the Scandinavian nation.

"We do not wish to live together with dirty beasts like you."

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 05:36 PM

This was posted to Facebook by my friend Tarek Fatah:

Farcebook, Boo - then its gotta be true.

Just like Bearded Bullshot's anonymous bullshit of 21 Aug 14 - 04:13 PM - gotta be true too.

Not.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 07:03 PM

If bobad and beardie-boy have opinions at all, the poor souls are way too inarticulate to express them coherently (though beardie-boy does love his CAPITALS when he's trying to TELL you a FACT!), which is why they generally choose to post either Zionist links, without accompanying comment, or big tracts of unattributed copy and paste. There are some discussion forums that would throw them out for that type of brainless behaviour. We're quite nice to them here, aren't we?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST,Jebidiah LaCount
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 08:07 PM

Then methought,
the air grew denser,
perfumed by a Mudcat censor,
whose footfalls tinkled
on the cutting room floor.

This is my final post on the Mudcat forum, as I will take my genius where it is understood and appreciated, and not simply rabidly coveted. But before I bid the site adieu, I must impart to the humorless censor a final farewell of sorts, in the form of a hearty, "Bonk you!".

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 10:30 PM

We wish.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 03:08 AM

"What is the difference?"
The only difference is that the Israeli terrorists are being allowed a free hand to continue their terrorism and slaughter with the support of the U.S. and its British poodle, while on the other hand, there is little official support anywhere for Isis (except for that of the odd trading partner of Britain, such as Turkey, Qatar and Saudi Arabia (all British arms customers), who actually help arm Isis, so indirectly, we are part of that terror trail.
How about organising a demonstration, or even putting your head above the parapet and saying no to Britain's involvement in indirect arms sales to fanatical terrorism - no - didn't think so really !!
It is gratifying to see you are at last coming around to recognising the fact that there is very little difference between the two though -
"One step at a time, sweet Jesus", as the song says.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 05:18 AM

There clearly IS a difference.
Israel is condemned, boycotted and demonstrated against and massively posted against here, while the terror and horror that US now also says is a greater threat to us all than anything else in the world today gets not a murmur.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 06:46 AM

IS aren't getting a murmur?

Your journey to the dark delusion is complete young Slywalker.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 06:52 AM

"There clearly IS a difference."
Your concern for the victims of Isis doesn't quite extend to demanding that Britain stops selling weapons to those states who are arming Isis?
Now why am I not surprised?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 06:56 AM

In comparison Musket.
There have been countless anti-Israel demos., but not one anti-IS.

Why are so many outraged by Israel but not outraged by the real evil?
Why have YOU posted so many condemnations of Israel?
Have YOU posted anything at all criticising IS?
Why the difference?

Jim says it is because Israel has the support of EU, Canada, and US.
So not really because of what they do.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 07:07 AM

Some countries supported ISIS against Assad, I imagine with your approval Jim.
That has stopped now and Isis captures more arms than it needs.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 09:03 AM

Continue bombing ISIS where potentially efficacious, as heavily and for as long as needed. This week's bombing forced them to give up the dam they'd seized at Mosul, an act that left ISIS looking, for the first time in its history, reduced and stoppable. Go to Congress for authorization of force, showing the world we have gained at least some semblance of unity. Give the Kurds, our actual friends, every kind of help they need, from military to material. Use the threat of ISIS to forge new bonds with allies and possible allies, such as the leaders of nearby countries that are immediately threatened. Go to the U.N., pound the table, ask for the world's help. Let them humiliate themselves by doing nothing if that's what they choose. At least it will be clarifying.

And be prepared, to the degree possible, for a hit or hits on American soil or that of our longstanding allies. ISIS says it's coming. So far they've done pretty much everything they said they'd do.

Wall Street Journal

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 09:04 AM

Human cost of conflict in Syria/Iraq.
2.9m
Refugees have fled abroad to escape the fighting in Syria
1.2m
Iraqis have been internally displaced
10.8m Syrians in need of humanitarian aid
1m Iraqis living in refugee camps or receiving emergency supplies
2,410 tonnes Tents and equipment being sent to Iraq in massive UN aid operation
Source: OCHA

BBC.
"the war in Syria continues to rage and has spilled over into neighbouring states. The death toll is now approaching 200,000, according to activists.

The hope of salvation has now vanished for many Syrians.

Majed, an advocate of civil disobedience and opponent of armed rebellion, has left Syria.

"The world has failed the Syrian people," he says.

"After the chemical attack I saw many men around me turn to extremism. The disappointment caused by the West's inaction created a fertile recruiting ground for extremist groups, who told those who had lost their loved ones that they were their only hope."

"People want a way out of the violence Assad is inflicting on them."

Many other Syrians feel the same.

"No-one cares about us," is a complaint you often hear, as is: "They even stopped calculating the number of dead or refugees amongst us."
"The readiness of the US to launch air strikes against Islamic State fighters in neighbouring Iraq to protect members of the Yazidi religious minority has caused further disappointment to those who once took to the streets calling for freedom and are now left suffering atrocities carried out by both Assad's forces and IS."

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 11:10 AM

"Jim says it is because Israel has the support of EU, Canada, and US. So not really because of what they do."
What the **** are you talking about?
STILL NOT A WORD OF CRITICISM ON THE FACT THAT BRITAIN IS SELLING ARMS TO SAUDI ARABIA, TURKEY AND QATAR, ALL OF WHOM ARE SUPPLYING ARMS TO ISIS
America has just proposed joining forces with Assad to fight Isis, so instead of supporting the Arab Spring protests before Isis filled the gap they left, they will be fighting on the side of a mass-murderer in order to prevent another bunch of mass murderers from taking over.
If there is any serious opposition, Isis will quite likely be killing American troops with weapons that have been sold by Britain and America via Qatar, Turkey and Saudi Arabia, all major arms customers of Britain and America.
All very confusing - Jonathan Swift and Lewis Carroll could not have dreamed it up after a week on the batter!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 12:40 PM

STILL NOT A WORD OF CRITICISM ON THE FACT THAT BRITAIN IS SELLING ARMS TO SAUDI ARABIA, TURKEY AND QATAR, ALL OF WHOM ARE SUPPLYING ARMS TO ISIS.

No they are not.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 12:59 PM

Er... I know this sounds obvious, but I'll say it anyway.

Yes they are.

Saudi Arabia buys arms from us and is the sponsor and indeed origin of Wahabism, the literal interpretation of The Q'ran and supports those who profess it. IS being a prime example.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 01:17 PM

Guardian headline Monday,"Saudi Arabia does not support Islamic State terrorists – or any others"

"Let me make it perfectly clear. The government of Saudi Arabia does not support or fund the murderers who have collected under the banner of the Islamic State. Their ideology is not one that we recognise, or that would be recognised by the vast majority of Muslims around the world – whether they were Sunni or Shia.

Under the leadership of the Custodian of the Two Holy Mosques, King Abdullah, we launched an initiative for dialogue between all religions and cultures in 2008 with the establishment of the King Abdullah Bin Abdulaziz International Centre for Interreligious and Intercultural Dialogue in Vienna.

Following an international counterterrorism conference held in Riyadh in 2005, the UN counterterrorism centre was established with financial support of $200m from our government.

We have been and are fighting extremism within our own borders daily, indeed hourly"
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/17/saudi-arabia-not-support-islamic-state-terrorists

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 01:24 PM

The Independent,
"Fear of the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (Isis, who now refer to themselves the Islamic State) is the new uniting factor for states in the Middle East and beyond who normally hate each other. The sudden emergence of Isis's still expanding caliphate, with its terrifying blend of brutality, bigotry and military effectiveness, provides a common enemy for the US, Iran, EU states, Saudi Arabia, Turkey and, in Iraq, Shia, Kurds and anti-Isis Sunni."
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/fear-brings-the-enemies-of-isis-together-at-last-9673644.html

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 01:51 PM

"No they are not."
Oh yess they are

ISIS FUNDING

WHAT????
"Last year alone, the government approved the export of £1.6bn of arms to Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia is vital to BAE, which this year signed a deal a deal worth well over £4bn for 72 Eurofighter Typhoon jets. The company is hoping for a further £1bn-plus contract from the Saudis to upgrade the Typhoons."

KUWAIT

http://www.caat.org.uk/resources/countries/turkey/uk-arms-sales.php

Saudi helped Isis to take over Northern Iraq

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 02:18 PM

They are NOT selling arms to ISIS.

See my links Jim.
Your "ISIS funding" link, (except for the headline!) is all past tense.
"But in the years they were getting started,..."

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 02:58 PM

Saudi Arabia has supported Isis - if it has dried up recently they have still supplied arms to Isis from those bought from the U.S. and Britain.
The reason given by Saudi Arabia for no longer supporting Isis is not because they no longer oppose their aims but "they believe Isis will target them next"
If that threat to their sovereignty lessens they will return support their aims and Britain will continue to sell them arms..   
The situation has not changed in any way with Turkey, Qatar and Kuwait - all supporting Isis - all arms customers of Britain and the U.S.
We are back to your supporting arms sales to terrorist states - leopards - spots and all that.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 03:07 PM

Saudi Arabia are a rogue terrorist state. They support terrorism wherever it fits with Wahabi principles.

Sadly, we are too far in bed with them to be able to resist sucking their dick.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 05:22 PM

"SAUDI ARABIA, TURKEY AND QATAR, ALL OF WHOM ARE SUPPLYING ARMS TO ISIS"

No they are not.
Maybe they did early on when it was just another rebel group against Assad, but not since their real nature was revealed

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 05:26 PM

Musket.
Saudi Arabia are a rogue terrorist state. They support terrorism wherever it fits with Wahabi principles.

They do not support IS, so which do they support?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 02:34 AM

Personally I like the bit where he put "no they do not" followed by "well, maybe just a bit. In the early days etc,"

You aren't making a speech Keith. Once you type, it isn't out. You can go back and remove the contradictions before posting.

Snag is, without contradicting yourself, your posts wouldn't have any merit for reading them.

Back to reality on the level grown ups may be interested. I notice Assad is trying to get back in the good books of Western leaders by turning on the IS on his turf. Interesting dilemma all round?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 03:21 AM

"No they are not"
Yes they do - they have supplied arms to Isis in the recent past - those arms would possibly have come from Britain.
If they are no longer actually supplying arms it is, as Saudi Arabia has said, because of the fear that Isis will move in on them - they remain supporters of Isis.
Kuwait, Qatar and Turkey all purchase arms from Britain and have supplied or assisted in arming Isis - why are you ignoring these?
Britain's and America's arms policy is totally undiscriminating - they sell to whoever will buy, Britain's trade minister, Vince Cable, has admitted as much.
Indirectly, Britain and America have contributed to the rise of Isis, by failing to act against mass-murderer Assad and by selling him arms and equipment, and now, in selling arms to States which have supported Isis in their rise to power.
On the eve of the Arab Spring protests, David Cameron hosted a massive Arms fair in order to sell arms to the very despots who were being protested against.
In Libya, Britain actively supported the rebels who were fighting Qaddafi - whose forces were using arms sold to them by Britain.
Britain and America have helped arm and have given support to some of the most despotic States in the world, and are continuing to do so - they have now added Isis to that list.
Should Isis ever achieve its aims, there is little doubt that, should the present policies continue, they will become 'valued customers' - business has no principles as to who it sells to.
What are you doing Keith - why are you supporting a policy that has armed terrorist States by denying what is done and dusted - you have the facts of what has been done in the recent past and what is happening now.
You are a right-wing fanatic whose only interest is in supporting extremist right-wing policies and big business.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 04:08 AM

"SAUDI ARABIA, TURKEY AND QATAR, ALL OF WHOM ARE SUPPLYING ARMS TO ISIS"

No they are not.
You are wrong again.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 04:19 AM

"You are wrong again."
You have been given the information of their having done so
It has always been Britain's policy to sell arms to whoever will buy them - that nice Mr Cable said so himself
You have been given that information as well
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 04:22 AM

Let me remind you of something.

When those countries were supplying arms to the Syrian rebels including ISIS, pacifist Jim was demanding that Britain and the West should supply them arms too!

Deny that Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 04:45 AM

"When those countries were supplying arms to the Syrian rebels including ISIS, pacifist Jim was demanding that Britain and the West should supply them arms too!"
Let me remind you that this was when those rebels were fighting to overthrow Assad and weer not dominated by extremists - and nobody claimed that the were.
Britain, America and the rest of the western world actually debated whether to fill the gap that had been left by the U.N. veto - had there been oil involved, the U.S. would not have hesitated to fill that gap.
Let me also remind you that your proposed solution was to supply Assad with the wherewithal to quash the protests in the form of armoured cars tear gas, high pressure water cannons and other riot control equipment (this was at the time the citizens of Homs were being used as target practice by snipers possibly having been trained using ammunition sold to Assad by Britain - you thought they were "a handful of sniper rifles" and approved that too)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 06:35 AM

Another reminder
Isis cut its teeth in Syria on the basis of being able to step in and grow because of the refusal of the U.N. and the west to become involved.
Had they done so, there would be no basis for Isis to become involved.
Arms and manpower support for the Syrian opposition could and should have been backed up by economic sanctions and confiscation of the considerable Assad property and possessions in Britain - defectors from Assad's regime were urging that this should happen as he valued his contacts and his long-lasting relationship with Britain.
Not only did none of this happen, but at the height of the Homs massacre a British minister was publicly quoted as saying that the Syrian conflict should in no way effect future trade, whoever emerged as winner.
Isis is a Frankenstein creation of the West's own making.
Ji Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST,Teddyboy
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 08:08 AM

Contributors bickering among themselves doesn't alter the fact that the savages who are collectively known as Islamic State would have, eventually, gained arms from somewhere (anywhere?) with which to wage their 'Holy War'.

There is no possibility of negotiating with radical Islam, as it's adherents do not interpret the words of either the Quran or the somewhat doubtful record of the habits of their 'prophet', they are told exactly what Allah requires of them. Their fear of the various terrifying punishments for disobedience, or their pitiful, deluded, expectations of sexual gratification (that, of course, being the absolute peak of possible human experience!) from their promised virgins soon persuades naive and fearful, testosterone laden, young kids to pledge their lives for the cause of Allah! To them, anyone not Muslim is as dirt under their feet, and therefore their views, beliefs or opinions are completely irrelevant as they are obviously not subjugated to the words of Allah's Quran as recited by Muhammad.   

The fact that 'converts' (however converted) repeat the words of the shahada is good enough; actual belief is not really worried about as long as the new recruits bow down to the sacred stone in Macca 5 times a day and fill their conversation with insh'Allahs and al ham dulillahs, they're fine!

If they aren't stopped soon; it'll be us that will be repeating those words before long! Better get some practice in, eh? All together now, repeat after me "I bear witness that there is no god except Allah...."

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 08:20 AM

"Contributors bickering among themselves doesn't alter the fact that the savages who are collectively known as Islamic State would have, eventually, gained arms from somewhere"
Yes - of course the could, but when the two largest arms traders on the planet are happily trading arms with Terrorist states and feudal despots - especially ones who support groups like Isis, doesn't the job of arming themselves become that much easier?
As for your comments on Islam - religions are religions anywhere yo go and will do whatever they are allowed to get away in pursuit of their own particular product - the only thing that differentiate one from the other is opportunity.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 08:23 AM

Missed a bit:
""I bear witness that there is no god except Allah....""
Holy Bible New Living Translation
"I am the LORD; there is no other God. I have equipped you for battle, though you don't even know me,"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST,Teddyboy
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 01:04 PM

"Missed a bit:"

Don't know about you Mr Carroll, but I haven't heard of any Christian community which is currently forcing anyone else to convert at the point of a sword. Neither is there one which would actually kill another Christian if they ever denied their faith.

Furthermore; It's no use quoting the Old Testament at Christians, we live and die by the "New Covenant" which is Jesus (the Christ), that's why we are called "Christians", or didn't you realise that?

Whilst I wouldn't and couldn't argue with the point you make in the immediately previous answer, it's all a bit academic, isn't it? Which one of us hasn't made a bad commercial decision and lived to regret it? As we cannot change history, shouldn't we now be looking at how to protect these poor innocents and finding a way out of this dreadful situation, rather than trying to lay blame for something which is/was inevitable anyway?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 04:11 PM

"Don't know about you Mr Carroll, but I haven't heard of any Christian community which is currently forcing anyone else to convert at the point of a sword"
Didn't say they have, just that they would if they could just as they have in the past
I quoted the Christian doctrine in response to your Muslim one.
All churces, no mater which particular brand of superstition they drom in their shopping trolley, are a threat to the lives of believers and non-believers alike if they are given enough power.
Scriptures such as that you quoted are meaningless without that power.
In the past the Christian church hasn't bothered with the sword - they tortured them util they recanted then burned them alive before they could change their minds.
I spent a large part of my life associating with ordinary, down-to-earth Muslims - I have said a hundred times that I found virtually every one of them far easier to discuss my non-belief with that I did committed non-Christians.
No - Christians no longer burn non-believers, but you might have read about the long-term rape of children here in Holy Ireland, carried out by clergymen and covered up (and even facilitated) by the church - that particular brand of persecution lasted for many decades, possibly centuries.
Or the Magdalene Laundries for "fallen women" which were slave driving sweat shops for girls unlucky enough to fall pregnant - the last of these closed in 1996.
Or the Homes for sinners, with their appalling punishments and mass graves.
Or the Church inspired pregnancy laws existing in Ireland which killed one woman the year before last - we are in the throes of another case at the present time where a 16 year old rape victim in danger of suicide was refused a pregnancy termination (despite theoretically being entitled to one), went on hunger strike, was force-hydrated to keep her and the foetus alive, then finally had to endure a Caesarian operation - not bad for a sixteen-year old.
The laws that should have given her access to an early termination were introduced recently following the death of a young mother who died having been refused a life saving operation "Because Ireland is a Catholic country".
None of this in any way adds up to beheadings - but it just goes to show what a church is capable of when it puts its mind to it.
Please don't tell me about religions which persecute - most do when they are allowed to.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST,Teddyboy
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 07:21 PM

My, my Mr Carroll, you really don't like the Catholics, do you? Well, we're in the same boat there, I'm only glad that we had the Reformation, since when real Christianity has come on by leaps and bounds. I cannot answer any of your comments above, as they don't actually refer to anything remotely Christian, as far as I can see. But I will get back to you as soon as I'm able. It's now after midnight, and I'm off to bed. Good night and God bless! By the way, I've lived in a small Egyptian town for most of the last 7 years, where most of my friends are Muslim.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 03:16 AM

"My, my Mr Carroll, you really don't like the Catholics, do you? "
I have no religion, but I have no objection to anybody's else's beliefs, just how those beliefs are misused by those who choose to do so.
"Christianity has come on by leaps and bounds"
Your argument appears to be based on them and us - my God is better than yours - which is what makes the Caliphate the menace that it is.
The sooner that all religions are forcibly removed from having any say in anything other spiritual guidance - and that under the strictest scrutiny, the batter, as far as I'm concerned.
They can all go to their own chosen Hells in their own particular handcarts as far as I'm concerned.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 03:32 AM

Indeed, Jim; I agree entirely with that postulation. But would add that, altho they are all mischievous in their various ways, this does not lead to the conclusion sometimes asserted that they are all equally so, so one shouldn't try to 'demonise' any above the others. I say again that IMO Islam is one with the greatest potential for harm in its teachings, and that to say that we should not take measures to protect ourselves from some of the potential of its effects is equivalent to asserting that, as all illnesses are undesirable, it doesn't really matter if you get cancer or a cold. I have been accused of "twisting someone's words" in making this comparison, but I remain blowed if I can see how.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 03:47 AM

We seem to have a new god botherer in our midst.

Welcome to the fray teddyboy, although this thread is about the dangers of taking superstition seriously, not advocating it.

Your comment about Christians not blah blah. The Christian terror cult in China that murdered a person in McDonalds for not converting there and then. Their trial is on the news should you wish to learn more. Also, the role of American Christian groups in funding persecution of gay people in Uganda is coming ever more to light.

It isn't Islam this, Old Testament that, Wicca the other. It's the unhelpful excuse that religion gives to bigotry, division and ultimately atrocity.

Christianity is just a different arm. The only thing that does seem to distinguish it is that many people calling themselves Christian are too sophisticated and educated to actually believe in the nonsense bit.

That's why they no longer burn me and other normal people at the stake for heresy. Christianity in The UK is more of a tradition. Although of course you get the odd gullible disturbed fool for whom membership has become less than helpful for their mental state.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 04:37 AM

"Church of Almighty God, a cult that believes that Jesus has risen in the shape of a 40-something Chinese woman named Yang Xiangbin, also sometimes known as Lightning Deng."

Christians still await the second coming, so these a hardly Christians.

last time we discussed Uganda (!) you failed to find any evidence for your claim.
What do you have now?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 06:50 AM

" Jim; I agree entirely with that postulation"
My earlier post seems to have gone walkabout.
"I say again that IMO Islam is one with the greatest potential for harm in its teachings"
I don't know enough about Islamic teaching to dispute this one way or another and I very much doubt if you do, but you are welcome to enlighten m on this.
I very much doubt if it can match something like this in any of it's teachings.
EVIL BIBLE QUOTES
And there's plenty more where they come from.
The use and misuse of Christianity for persecution and gain has as long a track-record as any other religion from the three centuries of the Inquisition and the Crusades through 20th century Ireland, taking in the blessing of bombs and Hitler's Pope Pius XII who nodded thousands of Italian Jews through to the German death camps.
Closest to home and most recent is the two decade long bloody warfare in Britain over a country which was deliberately partitioned on religious grounds for political and economic reasons.
We are at present trying to get our heads around a massacre of over 2000 people over a territorial dispute prompted by an aggressively expansionist policy heavily influenced by claims of a 'Chosen People' demanding their God-given 'Promised Land'.
Put any religion at the disposal of politicians or financeers, or give any church any influence beyond spiritual guidance and you have a toxic mix.
I know for a fact that whatever their background, given the opportunity and the motivation, Muslims are as capable of accepting change as those of any other faith - one of the most recurring pieces of advice given to those moving to countries of other faiths is that the laws and customs of their host nations be obeyed and respected.
It is no coincidence that the problem Muslim areas are or recently have been run by feudal despots, often backed by the West out of self-interest.
The rise in power of Isis can be traced directly back to Syria, and the cynical failure of the West not to become involved until it was too late - little to do with religion or belief.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 07:12 AM

"I don't know enough about Islamic teaching to dispute this one way or another and I very much doubt if you do"

.,,.

I make no claim to do so, Jim. I merely rely on what the perpetrators of the sort of acts I refer to [you know perfectly well the sort of thing mean here] themselves claim as their motivations. Can you name an incident of recent occurrence in which an innocent pedestrian was hacked to pieces with machetes by a pair of Christians who then told a passer-by that they were acting in accordance with the injunctions contained in Malachi 3 or Zepheniah 13 or Nahum 2? -- or any even remotely comparable incident? I think not.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 08:29 AM

" themselves claim as their motivations."
God on our side you mean - haven't we heard that before somewhere?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 09:04 AM

Yawn.. Some say good old Keith. Some say fuck him.

Which claim was that then? You don't have to answer with more bollocks if you dont wish. By saying what you did, you possibly managed to carry out your aim of lying to slur people.

I don't blame you. You have no argument so it is all you can do.

I like you saying a Christian cult aren't Christians. pete reckons you aren't...

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 10:32 AM

The claim about Christians being behind Ugandan failed legislation.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 10:36 AM

How can it be a Christian cult if it believes in a different Christ?

Am I of the Jewish faith because they believe a Messiah is coming?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 10:46 AM

Not just "God on their side", Jim; but actual quoted Koranic injunctions for such actions. You are being disingenuous, and don't pretend not to know it...

eg -- chapter 9, verse 5 -- "fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem".

I am well aware that Muslims sometimes claim that these are being taken out of context, & can only be held to apply in conditions of war. But the killers of Mr Rigby claimed explicitly that such injunctions applied in their case because they were engaged in an act of war in killing him; which was notoriously the defence they adduced at their trial.

So summarising such explicit justifications as simply an instance of "God on our side" really won't do, Jim. &, again I say, don't pretend you don't realise it.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 11:27 AM

"Not just "God on their side", Jim; but actual quoted Koranic injunctions for such actions. You are being disingenuous, and don't pretend not to know it..."
I really am not and you are deliberately avoiding every single point being made to justify your now admitted bigotry.
For every quote from the Qran you could find its equivalent from the bible
Wanna try a pissing competition?
Jim Carroll

"fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem".

"If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst."   (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)"

"So Joshua conquered the entire region – the hill country, the Negev, the land of Goshen, the western foothills, the Jordan Valley, and the mountains and lowlands of Israel. The Israelite territory now extended all the way from Mount Halak, which leads up to Seir, to Baal-gad at the foot of Mount Hermon in the valley of Lebanon. Joshua killed all the kings of those territories, waging war for a long time to accomplish this. No one in this region made peace with the Israelites except the Hivites of Gibeon. All the others were defeated. For the LORD hardened their hearts and caused them to fight the Israelites instead of asking for peace. So they were completely and mercilessly destroyed, as the LORD had commanded Moses.   (Joshua 11:16-20 NLT)"

"The Canaanite king of Arad, who lived in the Negev, heard that the Israelites were approaching on the road to Atharim. So he attacked the Israelites and took some of them as prisoners. Then the people of Israel made this vow to the LORD: "If you will help us conquer these people, we will completely destroy all their towns." The LORD heard their request and gave them victory over the Canaanites. The Israelites completely destroyed them and their towns, and the place has been called Hormah ever since.   (Numbers 21:1-3 NLT)"

"Weep and moan, you evil shepherds! Roll in the dust, you leaders of the flock! The time of your slaughter has arrived; you will fall and shatter like fragile pottery. You will find no place to hide; there will be no way to escape. Listen to the frantic cries of the shepherds, to the leaders of the flock shouting in despair, for the LORD is spoiling their pastures. Peaceful meadows will be turned into a wasteland by the LORD's fierce anger. He has left his den like a lion seeking its prey, and their land will be made desolate by the sword of the enemy and the LORD's fierce anger.   (Jeremiah 25:34-38 NLT)"

"In that day those the LORD has slaughtered will fill the earth from one end to the other. No one will mourn for them or gather up their bodies to bury them. They will be scattered like dung on the ground.   (Jeremiah 25:33 NLT)"

"Then the LORD, the God of Israel, said to me, "Take from my hand this cup filled to the brim with my anger, and make all the nations to whom I send you drink from it. When they drink from it, they will stagger, crazed by the warfare I will send against them."   (Jeremiah 25:15-16 NLT)"

"And now the LORD Almighty says: Because you have not listened to me, I will gather together all the armies of the north under King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon, whom I have appointed as my deputy. I will bring them all against this land and its people and against the other nations near you. I will completely destroy you and make you an object of horror and contempt and a ruin forever. I will take away your happy singing and laughter. The joyful voices of bridegrooms and brides will no longer be heard. Your businesses will fail, and all your homes will stand silent and dark. This entire land will become a desolate wasteland.   (Jeremiah 25:8-11 NLT)"

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 01:17 PM

I didn't say you couldn't 'find an equivalent quote", DISINGENUOUS filthy stinking Carroll. I said you couldn't find an example of a non-Muslim murderer of an innocent passer-by on a public highway using any such quote to justify his action, both to a brave passer-by who had intervened and later as a defence in court.

You are not merely being disingenuous, you are being blatantly dishonest. I am bloody disgusted with you; & you should be bloody ashamed of yourself. But of course you are not. Much too disingenuous a bleeding liar for any such emotion. Be off with you, stinking Carroll, you nasty piece of filth. I have had enough of debasing myself even to be appearing to argue with the graceless likes of you.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 01:47 PM

" Be off with you, stinking Carroll"
Back to the schoolyard whenever you are at a loss for a response.
" I said you couldn't find an example of a non-Muslim murderer of an innocent passer-by on a public highway using any such quote to justify his action"
How about the thousand plus passers by who have had their highways, homes and schools taken away as well as being blasted to smithereens by Israeli artillery in the name of 'A promised Land'
Don't suppose that fits your bigoted bill though, does it?
Wish I could say I am disappointed - long past that I'm afraid
Off to report you to teacher!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Mrrzy
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 05:39 PM

I think that if you believe that *the* messiah promised by the Old Testament god to his chosen people is coming to save you, individually, as part of those chosen people, then yes, you are of the jewish faith.

If you believe some other random messiah is coming, then no, you're not.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Lighter
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 06:09 PM

But "the" messiah is sent by God, so he can't be random. A random messiah would be a false messiah. If you believe in a messiah.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 09:00 PM

Sounds more like mishigas than messiah.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 25 Aug 14 - 03:23 AM

Have you noticed that those saying all Muslims are potential Islamists are saying the Chinese Christians are different Christians to them?

You couldn't make it up.





Though Keith does try, to be fair.

Then he says the American Christian cults bankrolling homophobic Ugandan politicians don't exist, despite a couple of them being proud enough to be interviewed in a documentary...

Is there any point in discussing IS whilst such bullshit and bollocks is being spread over the thread?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Aug 14 - 04:16 AM

Have you noticed that those saying all Muslims are potential Islamists

I have not notices anyone saying that.
Made up.

Chinese Christians are different Christians to them?

They are not Christians.

Then he says the American Christian cults bankrolling homophobic Ugandan politicians don't exist,

No I did not.
Made up.
I just asked if there was any evidence for it.
Is there?
Last time you had none.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Aug 14 - 04:19 AM

"Chinese Christians."
There are many, and life is very difficult for them.
That sect you posted about are not Christians.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Aug 14 - 06:25 AM

"That sect you posted about are not Christians"
This is typival of your argument Keith - if their behaviour is inconvenient to your argument they are not Christians.
""I have seen some of their teaching material," said Peng Baoshun. "It begins just like normal Christianity, with no difference at all. But when you get more involved, they introduce the theory of (Yang) being 'Almighty God.'" Peng said the teachings were straightforward. "They just want you to repeat over and over that you obey 'God,' listen to her, and not fight back. And there are threats for those who think of quitting."
Jim Carroll
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_terrorismEXTREMIST CHRISTIANS

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Aug 14 - 07:51 AM

Whoops
CHRISTIAN TERRORISM
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Aug 14 - 12:04 PM

Muslims revere Jesus, but believe that their later prophet was greater.
Would you call them Christians?

This sect revere a Chinese lady who no other Christians accept as the Christ.
It is not how we believe the second coming will come about.
They are not Christians.
I can not stop you calling them Christians, but actual Christians know they are not.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 25 Aug 14 - 12:57 PM

Whereas they reckon you aren't a Christian...

You can't have it both ways. If you call "Islamists" people who follow Islam, then Christians are Christians, whether they are old biddies cramming for their finals between flower arranging and beetle drives or butchers murdering Muslims in CAR, they are Christians. I assume those in China will be ex Christians when the savage government over there execute them. Are they martyrs or deranged nutters?

Anyway, when you say something odd and irrational such as believing a second coming when a first one never actually happened because it physically can't how can any rational person take you seriously?

Even most vicars see it as stories with morals, you daft twat.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Aug 14 - 01:35 PM

"I can not stop you calling them Christians, but actual Christians know they are not."
You seem to have moved on from speaking on behalf of the Israelis to speaking on behalf of all Christians.
You have a list of the various brands of Extremist Christianity - next to them this particular bunch of nutters seems to be fairly small potatoes
ANOTHER ONE

AND ANOTHER

AND ANOTHER

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Aug 14 - 03:35 PM

Lots of wacky sects and cults.
The Chinese one is not Christian.
If you think some Christians might not agree with me, good luck, but I am likely to be a better judge than either of you on that.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 Aug 14 - 04:46 PM

BEIRUT: Islamic State militants stormed an air base in northeast Syria on Sunday, capturing it from government forces after days of fighting that cost more than 500 lives, a monitoring group said.

The Syrian observatory for human rights said at least 346 Islamic State fighters were killed and more than 170 members of government forces had died since Tuesday in the fight over Tabqa base, making it one of the deadliest confrontations between the two groups since the start of Syria's war.

The observatory, which monitors violence in Syria through sources on the ground, said fighting raged inside the air base on Sunday. It was the Syrian army's last foothold in an area otherwise controlled by Islamic State, which has seized large areas of Syria and Iraq.

In nearby Raqqa city, an Islamic State stronghold, there was celebratory gunfire and several mosques announced through their loudspeakers that the base had fallen to the Islamists and cheered "God is greatest", a witness told Reuters.

IS fighters displayed the severed heads of Syrian army soldiers in the city square, the witness said, adding that Syrian warplanes were heard over Raqqa following the air base attack. Earlier on Sunday the Syrian air force had bombed areas around the base.

Syrian state television said that after fierce battles, the military was "regrouping".

Citing a military source, it said there was a "successful evacuation of the airport" and that the army was continuing strikes on "terrorist groups" in the area, which it said had suffered heavy losses.

Syrian state media gave no figure for the number of people killed in the clashes.

Islamic State had also trapped around 150 retreating Syrian soldiers in an area near the base and was believed to be holding them captive, the Observatory said.

The Syrian army sent reinforcements to the base overnight on Friday to fight Islamic State, which controls roughly a third of northern and eastern Syria.

Syrian television had shown footage of army forces defending the base on Saturday who had said it was safe from Islamic State's advances. Many of the Islamic State fighters died after Syrian warplanes bombarded the area, the observatory said.

Military Bases

Islamic State, a radical offshoot of al Qaeda, has taken three Syrian military bases in the area in recent weeks, boosted by arms seized in Iraq.

Syria is calculating that the IS push to reshape the Middle East will eventually force the West to deal with President Bashar al-Assad as the only way to tackle the threat, sources familiar with Syrian government thinking have said.

Elsewhere in Syria, the group withdrew from northern areas it controlled outside the city of Homs on Sunday and retreated east after coming under attack from rival Islamist fighters, the Observatory said.

Fighters from the group withdrew from a headquarters north of Homs on the orders of their leader Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, the Observatory said, citing sources in the area.

They said IS gave up the territory to Nusra Front, al Qaeda's official wing in Syria.

As well as Nusra Front, Western-backed rebels have also been fighting IS in Syria but have regularly been defeated by the group, which in June declared an "Islamic caliphate" in the territory it controls.

Activists have accused the Syrian army of avoiding confrontations with IS because it has weakened rival rebel groups also battling Assad.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/south-asia/Hundreds-dead-as-Islamic-State-seizes-Syrian-air-base/articleshow/40864203.c

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 Aug 14 - 04:48 PM

KANO (NIGERIA): Boko Haram's leader said he has created an Islamic caliphate in a northeast Nigeria town seized by the insurgents earlier this month, in a video obtained by AFP on Sunday.

"Thanks be to Allah who gave victory to our brethren in (the town of) Gwoza and made it part of the Islamic caliphate," Abubakar Shekau said in the 52-minute video. He declared that Gwoza, in Borno state, now has "nothing to do with Nigeria".

"By the grace of Allah we will not leave the town. We have come to stay," said Shekau, who has been designated a global terrorist by the United States and sanctioned by the UN Security Council. The UN humanitarian office (OCHA) earlier this month confirmed reports that Gwoza was under rebel control.

Boko Haram is also believed to be in control of other areas near Gwoza in southern Borno, as well as large swathes of territory in northern Borno and at least one town in neighbouring Yobe state. Mapping the precise areas which have fallen into Islamist hands is nearly an impossible task.

There are few humanitarian workers on the ground in the northeast, travel is dangerous and the region, which has been under a state of emergency since May of last year, has poor mobile phone coverage.

Experts have described Boko Haram's gains in recent weeks as unprecedented, saying the group was closer than ever to achieving its goal of carving out a strict Islamic state across northern Nigeria. But many analysts believe that the military has the capacity to reverse the insurgents's advance.

Soldiers this week refused to deploy to Gwoza without better weapons in an apparent mutiny.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/rest-of-world/Boko-Haram-chief-declares-caliphate-in-Nigeria-town/articleshow/40862400.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Aug 14 - 02:26 AM

"but I am likely to be a better judge than either of you on that."
Why - if you are in any way representative of Christianity they'd all be screaming headbangers.
What gives you the slightest superiority over anbody else on a subject we've all been brought up under and are influenced by.
Decided to take the cloth - now there's a thought!!
There you go again - infallibility.
There is a cure, you know.
By the way - you blatantly lied about having access to the Haaretz article you have yet to produce (still welcome to do so).
Haaretz never opens up its full articles to non subscribers as you claimed when producing its headline as evidence for Israel claims.
Why do you have to invent things and claim infallibility if you arguments actually believe your bullshit?
Want to produce the contents of that article now - no? - didn't think so.
Moron
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 26 Aug 14 - 02:42 AM

Well, Keith seems to be a different wavelength to at least two vicars and a Chaplain I could mention. They are Christians, and have the payslips to prove it.

Mind you, be fair Jim. He certainly has the self righteous zeal of your average God botherer. The dozy bugger is dripping in mis placed sanctimony.

The only second coming I know of is down to style, technique and going bald at an early age.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 26 Aug 14 - 06:58 AM

Interesting piece in the LA Times from 1986 about how the Soviets dealt with Muslim extremists who kidnapped some Soviet diplomats in Lebanon:

QUOTE: "The Soviet secret police last year secured the release of three kidnaped Soviet diplomats in Beirut by castrating a relative of a radical Lebanese Shia Muslim leader, sending him the severed organs and then shooting the relative in the head."

"The KGB then apparently kidnaped and killed a relative of an unnamed leader of the Shias' Hezbollah (Party of God) group, a radical, pro-Iranian group that has been suspected of various terrorist activities against Western targets in Lebanon.

Parts of the man's body, the paper said, were then sent to the Hezbollah leader with a warning that he would lose other relatives in a similar fashion if the three remaining Soviet diplomats were not immediately released. They were quickly freed.

The newspaper quoted "observers in Jerusalem" as saying: "This is the way the Soviets operate. They do things--they don't talk. And this is the language Hezbollah understands."

LA Times

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 26 Aug 14 - 07:44 AM

I am presently sat outside a Costa Cafe. Across from me are two old men with sandwich boards and bibles shouting to shoppers to return to Jesus. (Bearing in mind most people they are shouting at gave never been to Jesus any more than they have been to the moon. )

One of them has starting shouting that Muslims bear false testimony and must be obliterated from the face of the earth. When a copper walks past I might just mention it.

It occurs to me that if I were of the Mohammedian persuasion and went over to kick the fuck out of the disgusting twat, Islamic hate of innocent old men might just reach page three of the local free press.

Funny thing superstition. You can disown your own if you are of the Christian cult but all Muslims get tarred with the same holy brush.

(An aside. Someone is reading The a Daily Mirror on the next table. The headline is that "Brit doctors will cure Ebola." Notwithstanding the stupidity of the headline in the first place, it occurs to me that when I helped the review of the hospital in Swansea (helping The Welsh Assembly with their flavour of quality regulation )where a doctor who had contracted it was sent for treatment, she would have been under the care of, amongst others, the two haematologists who share the call rota there. These particular Brits... One is from Syria and the other Iraq. They got microbiology advice from a prof appointed by the RC. Yes, Walid comes from Iraq cone to think of it.

Funny thing superstition. A bit like nationalism. Just as repugnant.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Aug 14 - 10:48 AM

Yes bobad, what goes around comes around.

Some people don't respond to reason....the old maxim of "don't get mad, get even" usually does the trick.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 26 Aug 14 - 11:26 AM

gave and cone...

should be have and come...

iPhone for sale

Nice to see torture and base instinct is popular with the less evolved scum around here...

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 28 Aug 14 - 01:00 PM

I don't recall subscribing to a newsfeed called beardedbruce and to be fair, I prefer ones with less bias towards the unfortunate, but thanks for supplying it anyway.

if anyone knows how to stop news feeds on threads expecting opinions of members.. Oh, hang on. Scrub that. I prefer cut & paste to braidedbeardedbruce's take on situations he doesn't understand in the first place.

---

Mod butting in here.
While it's acceptable to quote from an article or provide a link to support one's posting of their own opinion, quoting entire articles or simply giving a link is not. Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 31 Aug 14 - 12:36 PM

Brilliant!

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 02 Sep 14 - 06:27 AM

"The Islamic State (IS) armed group is carrying out a campaign of ethnic cleansing in northern Iraq, targeting religious and ethnic minorites with mass killings and abductions, Amnesty International says.

In a report released on Tuesday, the global rights body said systematic violence in Iraq had increased to a historic scale.

"The massacres and abductions being carried out by the Islamic State provide harrowing new evidence that a wave of ethnic cleansing against minorities is sweeping across northern Iraq," said Donatella Rovera, Amnesty International's Senior Crisis Response Adviser currently in northern in Iraq."

Al Jazeera

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Sep 14 - 10:17 AM

And Bobad's contribution in that post is..?

Why, more horseshit, of course!

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 02 Sep 14 - 10:27 AM

It's a hell of a lot more informative and relevant to the thread than the previous two posts, that's for sure.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 02 Sep 14 - 10:49 AM

Well, I must revise my comment to "the previous post" as one has been removed due to the poster's ill mannered invective.

Another objective for the posting was to see if the report of ethnic cleansing by the IS would garner thousands of posts of condemnation despite the lack of a Jewish component to the report. So far it has, as expected, produced two ad hominem attacks from the usual suspects.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Sep 14 - 10:59 AM

despite the lack of a Jewish component to the report.

Idiot.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 02 Sep 14 - 11:23 AM

Awww......Greggie's got a little butt hurt from truth biting him on the ass.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 02 Sep 14 - 12:51 PM

I don't know...

You have a pop at a sick bastard and the bloody moderators remove your post?

Best bit is, the moderators allow the sick stuff on the basis of free speech.

This is what happens I suppose when the site is moderated by foreigners. You just can't trust the buggers.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Sep 14 - 02:13 PM

Yo, Boo- you can't HANDLE the truth!

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 02 Sep 14 - 07:18 PM

So, no interest in the REAL ethnic cleansing being carried out by the IS, eh? But what about them Jews and the ethnic cleansing they're perpetrating, eh boys? Isn't it horrible what they're doing!

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Sep 14 - 08:08 PM

Isn't it horrible what they're doing!

Sure is. And what ISIS is or isn't doing has no bearing on what Israel is doing.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 02 Sep 14 - 08:18 PM

And what is Israel doing Greg?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Sep 14 - 09:53 PM

And what is Israel doing Greg?

Idiot.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Sep 14 - 03:01 AM

"And what ISIS is or isn't doing has no bearing on what Israel is doing." - Greg F

But what ISIS is, or isn't, doing does have a massive bearing on the subject of this particular thread, while what Israel is doing has got nothing to do with THIS thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 03 Sep 14 - 04:49 AM

When your mind is so fucked up and twisted, and you can't see two wrongs...

IS being wrong doesn't make Israel right. They are both terrorising in order to inflict their way onto others. Civilised countries and The UN are condemning both.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Sep 14 - 09:04 AM

while what Israel is doing has got nothing to do with THIS thread.

Take it up with Boo, T-Bird. He's the one keeps dragging Israel into the conversation at every opportunity.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Sep 14 - 04:20 PM

There are many wrongs.
IS is about as evil an entity as anything in the world today.
The paradox is that Israel, much less evil if evil at all, is so much more attacked both in UN and here.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 04 Sep 14 - 12:46 PM

Perhaps Israel gets a mention because of the inferred shroud of respectability they drum up?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Sep 14 - 04:37 AM

No different to Egypt next door.
like Israel supported by US taxes.
Guilty of apartheid against Bedouin, persecution of minorities and execution of political prisoners.
Also settling Bedouin land in Sinai.

lots of views posted about Israel, almost none about Egypt.
No Jews no views?

---

Everyone, please see this post, including moderator comment - Mod

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Sep 14 - 05:04 PM

BIG difference next door, FKWT - check the amount of aid each recieves and what sort.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Sep 14 - 05:50 AM

So it is just the amount of aid?
That is why you endlessly attack Israel and ignore, for instance, Egypt who is guilty of blockading GAza plus all those other things I listed?!!

Why do you not just criticise the aid package?
Egypt is also kept afloat by US aid.

No.
That does not explain why you endlessly and only attack Israel while ignoring the far worse crimes of its neighbours.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Sep 14 - 09:36 AM

That does not explain why you endlessly and only attack Israel while ignoring the far worse crimes of its neighbours.

Simple explanation FKWT: I don't.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 06 Sep 14 - 10:34 AM

Civilians, including women, have been killed after Iraqui forces launched an offensive against IS in Kirkuk. Will we be hearing charges of genocide, indiscriminate killing and disproportionality? Will the UN launch an investigation into war crimes and human rights violations? I will be waiting.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 06 Sep 14 - 10:41 AM

"No jews, no views."

Just when you think he can't sink any lower....

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Sep 14 - 02:27 PM

So, why do you always attack Israel but never, say, Egypt.
Greg, how can you deny that you do?
Where are your posts attacking Egypt?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Sep 14 - 04:17 PM

"It all depends on whose ox is being gored"
---------------------------------
"Daddy, he hit me first"

carry on....

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Sep 14 - 05:24 PM

Where are your posts attacking China, FKWT?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Sep 14 - 05:29 PM

Oh and FKWT: here, Educate Yourself

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 06 Sep 14 - 05:32 PM

Odd that on threads about Israeli atrocities, decent people appear to be berated for mentioning Israel rather than, say, Egypt.

What silly pork sausages we are....

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Sep 14 - 06:05 PM

Egypt, or Timbukto for that matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 06 Sep 14 - 08:24 PM

Syria's military kills 35 civilians in Raqqa as Damascus launches airstrikes against Islamic State held areas: http://aje.me/1lO6Yqf

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Sep 14 - 04:41 AM

Israel is raised on many dedicated threads and also on unrelated threads by you people.
There are no dedicated threads about Egypt and you people never criticise it on threads where its behaviour could be raised.

Greg, I criticised China a lot on the thread I started about Syria.

The things Egypt does would have you hammering the keys if Jews did it.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Sep 14 - 05:16 AM

Ain't that the truth! I carry the opposite of a brief for many current Israeli goings-on: the great disappointment of my life, as I never tire of saying. But this obsession with Israel even on threads like this where it is irrelevant or at most marginal, little as its expressers might like to acknowledge the fact, is nothing but antisemitism, pure & simple. As that character in Shaw's play would have put it so succinctly: they think it isn't, but it is.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Sep 14 - 06:25 AM

I think you are wrong on that particular point M.

I don't think anti-Semitism is the driving force of all of the unrealistic posters, rather a desperate attempt by "liberals" to claim some political credibility.

Israeli retaliation has been disproportionate, their policy of expansion is blunt and cruel, the "Palestinian problem" is never properly addressed.
Of course as has been explained by yourself and Keith, there is rabid hypocrisy at work by so called liberals on this forum, but it is a last line of ideological defence rather than anti-Semitism.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Sep 14 - 08:57 AM

"So, why do you always attack Israel but never, say, Egypt."
Two reasons.
The two greatest threats to world peace today are from Islamist extremism and from Israeli expansionism, Israel's nuclear capability making her the greater threat.
They are both inexorably linked because they have their groundings in religion.
Egypt doesn't even come into the running at the present time.
Had the West and particularly the U.N. handled the Arab Spring differently, Egypt might just have put its own house in order - ISIS would certainly never have gained a toe-hold in Syria.
"Greg, I criticised China a lot on the thread I started about Syria."
While at the same time proposing that Assad be supplied with weapons and equipment to suppress any attempts at democratisation in Syria.

"rather a desperate attempt by "liberals" to claim some political credibility"
Liberal definition - a person with liberal views - obviously still a problem with Ake, despite former protestations that he had nothing against them.
Jim Carroll

MEDICAL PERSONNEL CLAIM ISRAEL TESTED NEW WEAPONS DURING ATTACKS ON GAZA
Lara Marlowe in Gaza   Irish Times Sept 6th.
Doctors describe injuries inconsistent with previously used ammunition
Doctors and an ambulance officer believe Israel tested new weapons during its July 8th - August 26th assault on the Gaza Strip.
Ambulance officer Ibrahim Abu Kas of the Palestinian Red Crescent Society has worked through the last three wars between Israel and Hamas. "In this war, I saw things I never could have imagined," he says. "The five children from the al-Jaal family in Zeitoun were the strangest thing I ever saw in my life."
The room where three girls and two boys were sleeping was hit by an Israeli tank shell while their mother, father and grand¬mother sat in another room. "Their bodies were hot. Their hair and skin were black liked charred wood. When their parents arrived at the hospital, they didn't recognise them," Abu Kas continues. "But there had been no fire, only white smoke."
'Third-degree burns'
Abu Kas's account corroborates what Dr Sobhi Skaik, chief surgeon and medical di¬rector at Shifa hospital and a member of the Royal College of Surgeons in Edinburgh, told me earlier: "We saw third-degree burns that cannot be explained; neither flame burns nor chemical burns. It was as if the patient became mummified, and most of them died. Their skin blackened and their tissue became tough and solid. I saw dozens of patients like this in the intensive care unit, from the Ajour and Hijazi families, among others."
Abu Kas worked 24 hours on/24 hours off for the first 40 days of the war, then round the clock, with brief naps in the Red Crescent office for the last 10 days. "I saw more than a dozen bodies that looked normal, with no marks or wounds. But when we touched them they were slip¬pery. If you tried to pick them up, the flesh fell off like jelly. We had to roll them in blankets."
Doctors at Shifa hospital heard rumours of chemical weapons or gas. "I saw a man whose limbs were jerking and he could not breathe before he died, but he had no wounds," Abu Kas recounts. Earlier, he had picked up people who were suffocating but survived.
Also early in the conflict, Abu Kas found a man sitting frozen in a chair, dead, but with no apparent wounds. When Israeli ground troops began pulling out, his ambulance followed in their wake. He discovered the bodies of five Palestinian fighters, seemingly frozen like the man in the chair, at least two of whom still clutched guns. Each had a small bullet hole in the forehead. "I think they were already dead when they were shot point blank," Abu Kas continues.
"The Israelis listen to our communications, and they must have known we were talking about chemicals or gas. I think they shot the dead fighters to hide how they died."
In the previous war, Israel was criticised for extensive use of white phosphorous, which causes horrific burn wounds. Dr Skaik saw 90 per cent of the 4,500 wounded brought to Shifa, Gaza's biggest public hospital. He did not find white phosphorous wounds in this war, though two eyewitnesses told me they saw the characteristic white jellyfish-like clouds over Shujaiya. Two sources confirmed the use of flechettes, tiny darts fired in anti-person¬nel tank shells, which cut their victims into mincemeat.
Whatever new weapons Israel may have used, "The worst illegal weapons are the siege, which is illegal collective punishment, the disproportionate use of force and the lack of discrimination between civilian and military targets," says the Norwegian doctor Mads Gilbert, who worked at Shifa during the war.
An emergency worker at Shifa called al-Yazdi found the bodies of his father and mother in the back of an ambulance.
"One day, I didn't carry a single living body - only dead people for 24 hours," says Abu Kas. "In previous wars, we could treat most of the wounded," says Dr Skaik. "This time, the number and magnitude of wounds was far greater. One third were dead on arrival."
Hospitals closed
More than a dozen ambulances were destroyed - "51 per cent of all major clinics and hospitals were damaged, and 27 per cent remain closed because of damage or lack of personnel," says Anders Thomsen ofthe UN Population Fund.
Abu Kas lists four places where the Israelis returned and attacked civilians and rescue workers who rushed to the site of a bombing. "The pilots can see my wristwatch from the cockpit, so they can certainly see the ambulances, fire engines and police cars," he says.
At about 5.30pm on July 30th, Abu Kas's ambulance was called to Shujaiya, one of the worst hit areas. "There were two bodies lying on the ground, and civilians brought me a girl with a head wound. It didn't look too bad, so I put her in the ambulance and went into a building where there were severely wounded people."
During a nightmarish hour of Israeli tank fire, Abu Kas was wounded in the hand and leg and the Palestinian news photographer Rami Rayan was killed beside the ambulance.
The girl was on Abu Kas's mind as he administered first aid to the wounded. By the time he returned, the ambulance had been hit and the wounded child's brains were spilling out. "I carried her body to another ambulance," Abu Kas says. He is crying. "I think about her all the time. If I die, it doesn't matter, because I've lived 35 years. But she was only 12-years-old."

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Sep 14 - 09:51 AM

But it is precisely because they are 'liberals', Ake, that they are not really cognisant of — cannot face up to the reality of — their true motivations. I say again: it is, so, antisemitism, at that.

They think it isn't, but it is.

YOU think it isn't, but it is.

Regards

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 07 Sep 14 - 10:00 AM

Tell you what Keith. Using your logic, its got fuck all to do with jews.

We all hate you because you are a fucking christian so oppose anything and everything you say or stand for eh?

If you want to be paranoid, at least do it in style, sick fucker.

Michael just said that not hating others makes you antisemitic. At least he has the excuse of going senile..

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Sep 14 - 10:26 AM

Perhaps you are right M, but I would hate to think that anyone on this forum was anti-Semitic or racist.

I do know that there are many liberals and a handful of "liberals" here, many of the liberals are regarded as racists by the "liberals", who are themselves Fascists!

If that seems convoluted, I apologise, but constructing a sensible society is a complicated business. :0)

Likewise Regards...A

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Sep 14 - 12:40 PM

Israel has been shrinking, not expanding since 1972!
How is it a threat to anyone's peace?


Egypt next door.
Like Israel supported by US taxes.
Guilty of apartheid against Bedouin, persecution of minorities and execution of political prisoners.
Also settling Bedouin land in Sinai and blockading Gaza.

Lots of views posted about Israel, almost none about Egypt.
No Jews no views?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 07 Sep 14 - 01:07 PM

Fuck me. He even repeats it. Have you no sense of shame?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 07 Sep 14 - 01:25 PM

"No Jews no views? "

Exactly!

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 07 Sep 14 - 04:32 PM

Not to mention the unfortunate echo.

If you have no argument, play the holocaust card.

Sick bastards.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Sep 14 - 04:09 AM

My argument is that it shows bias that you only and always criticise Israel while ignoring the worse behaviour of its immediate neighbours.
Why do you do that?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Sep 14 - 04:14 AM

Keith A of Hertford's post of Date: 07 Sep 14 - 12:40 PM

Makes a point and asks as valid question, which none of the "usual suspects" has answered - but that is about par for the course.

Israel expanding? Yet no comments about Jordan's expansion into the West Bank and East Jerusalem, or Egypt's into Gaza that resulted in "Palestinians" being shut up in refugee camps for decades and purposely kept in poverty to be used as political pawns, those refugee camps being located on "Palestinian" Land - no explanation or answer given for that little anomaly either although I have asked repeatedly.

Israel took in over 820,000 refugees and integrated them into the fabric of their country - Now why couldn't their Arab neighbours do the same for the Arab refugees?

Stop fighting, stop threatening Israel with annihilation and there will be peaceful co-existence and prosperity for all in the region - since 1848 the Arab side of the equation has NEVER given peace a chance.

Now as far as the Caliphate goes:

1: Anyone here in this community amazed by the millions of Muslims flooding to join the Caliph in his Islamic Paradise?

2: What has happened since the US has decided to provide Iraqi and Kurdish forces with air support?

3: What do think will happen to IS/ISIL/ISIS once the new Iraqi Government, their Arab neighbours and the full weight of US air power gets going to combat and challenge the "Caliphate"?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Sep 14 - 04:46 AM

At a recent Oireachtas (Irish parliament) special committee meeting attended by the Israeli Ambassador to Ireland, it was revealed that it has been proposed that that those who are protesting at the 'Gazan adventure' should not only all be treated as Anti-Semites, but their sexual orientation should be made public where necessary - gay Senator David Norris, a leading opponent of Israeli terrorism, reacted as would be expected!
The Ambassador assured the committee that the photograph of the statue of Molly Malone with her wheelbarrow, dressed in a burkah, has now been removed from the Embassy's website.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Sep 14 - 05:39 AM

Some of the atrocities you people appear to be supporting, actually or with your silence.
Jim Carroll

From this Morning's Irish Times
GAZA FAMILY DEVASTATED BY SERIES OF ATTACKS
Lara Marlowe
in Beit Hanoun, Gaza Strip

Decomposing bodies remain unburied in rubble of destroyed building
Israeli ground troops, surviving family members claim, sequesered eight members of the Wahdan family, ranging in age from an 18-month-old girl to a 70-year-old grandfather, then dynamited their house in Beit Hanoun, killing all inside.
Four members of the same family were subsequently killed when Israeli drones fired three rockets at the house where they took refuge in Jabaliya camp. The dead included Sanioura Wahdan (20). Her three small boys were sleeping beside her and were among 30 relatives wounded in the second attack. The boys' father, Ali, has been sent to Egypt for medical care and may not survive. His left leg was amputated and he has a severe head wound.
Eighteen-month-old Mohamed has burn and suture scars on his face and abdomen and cries constantly. His brothers Omar (3) and Mussab (5) were also badly wounded. Mussab refuses to speak or engage with other people. The entire family are descendants of Zaki Wahdan, who was killed along with his wife, a daughter-in-law, four grandchildren and a great grand-daughter when Zaki's house was blown up on July 27th.
DRIVEN OUT
Wahdan was four when his family were driven out of Wadi Hanin, near Ramla, in the newly formed state of Israel. He had 10 sons and more than 100 grandchildren. The extended family lived with or near their patriarch, as is the custom among Palestinians. The men were construction and agricultural workers and beekeepers. They have no affiliation with Hamas.
Zaki Wahdan's home was less than 1km from Israel. From the rubble of his house, one can see the Israeli town of Sderot, which has often been targeted by Hamas rockets. "In the 2012 war, we saw soldiers on the dunes over there," says Ayman Wahdan. "They never shot at us. We don't understand why they attacked us this time."
On July 20th, Israeli special forces entered Beit Hanoun. More than 40 children and grandchildren had already fled Zaki Wahdan's four-storey building to seek safety in schools and in Jabaliya. Of the 15 who remained, the soldiers took seven men at gunpoint to the Erez crossing point, where they were questioned for three days about Hamas and why they had stayed in the house. Then they were given laissez passer documents and warned not to return to Beit Hanoun, so they joined other family members in Jabaliya.
During the night of July 26th-27th, Mohamed Wahdan (20) received a call from his sister Zeinab, who had stayed in the Beit Hanoun house. Mohamed was one of the seven men taken to Israel.
"Zeinab said: 'There is something strange going on. We are frightened,'" Mohamed recalls. "She said: 'The Israelis put us all in one room and said we would be safe if we didn't go out. They said don't open the door for anyone. I think they put dynamite in the house.'"
ONLY LIMBS FOUND
When Mohamed Wahdan re¬turned to Beit Hanoun, he found seven charred legs in the rubble. He knew immediately which brother or sister they belonged to. He recognised one leg to be that of his grandmother, Soaad. The limbs were bur¬ied in a single grave in Beit Lahi-ya cemetery.
From the pile of rubble comes a smell of decomposing flesh. The family last week appealed to a leading Hamas official and to the head of the municipality to send a bulldozer so they can retrieve the rest of the bodies, to no avail.
The Consolidated Contractors Company estimates that the war left 2.5 million tonnes of rubble. But there are only two bulldozers in the entire Gaza Strip, says the economist Hamed Jad. "There were four before the war, but the Israelis bombed two," Jad explains.
Mohamed Wahdan lost two grandparents, his mother, four siblings and a niece in the house. His father, Hatem, who had been taken to Israel with Mohamed and five others, was killed in the August 3rd rocket attack that killed four more Wahdans in Jabaliya.
Khadija Wahdan (29) recounts the Jabaliya attack: "We were sleeping in two rooms. I was in the one where the rock¬ets exploded. I was surrounded by dead bodies. I called their names and they didn't answer. I ran outside with my face burning and my hair on fire. There was a cement block on my moth¬er's head..."
Mohamed Wahdan chain-smokes and shows little emotion. "I come here every day to talk to my family and to look for their things," he says, standing in the rubble. "I know they are below me when I'm here, and I tell them to rest in peace."

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Sep 14 - 05:52 AM

supporting, actually or with your silence.

No one is supporting any atrocity, but explain why on a thread about IS you only post criticism of Israelis' behaviour while ignoring the far worse atrocities of the Caliphate.

No Jews no views?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Sep 14 - 05:54 AM

The Irish Times has published many reports about IS atrocities.
Why have you never pasted a single one Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Sep 14 - 06:55 AM

"Why have you never pasted a single one Jim?"
Booboo has posted enough to rest most of us the rest of our lives.
You crowd have deliberately set out to make Muslims the enemy while at the same time reffusing to accept or respond t s ingle criticism of isreal
You take sides - we say they are as bad as one another - doesn't get mor complicated than that.
You put up onlu Isreali criticism - making Israeli atrocities "Jewish" makes you an anti-Semite
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Sep 14 - 07:18 AM

Stop fighting, stop threatening Israel with annihilation and there will be peaceful co-existence and prosperity for all in the region.

Give it a go:

1: Egypt tried it and found that it worked
2: Jordan tried it and found that it worked
3: To a certain extent Mahmoud Abbas has tried it and has found in general terms that it works.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Sep 14 - 07:52 AM

Jim, this thread is about the Caliphate, so why post attacks on Israel while remaining silent about the horrific atrocities committed by the Caliphate?

Convince us it is not simply because there are no Jews in the Caliphate.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Sep 14 - 10:38 AM

I have not said any of those things.
I just asked why you endlessly and only criticise Israel while ignoring greater evil all around.
Even on threads not about Israel, like this one.

So, why do you do it?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 08 Sep 14 - 11:00 AM

I'm criticising you at this point.

And your mates.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Sep 14 - 11:44 AM

Avoiding the question.
I just asked why you endlessly and only criticise Israel while ignoring greater evil all around.
Even on threads not about Israel, like this one.

So, why do you do it?

Why did Jim ignore all the Irish Times reports on the Caliphate, but paste in one about Israel ?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Sep 14 - 12:06 PM

Keith, don't feed that potty-mouthed irrational little booby who calls himself Musket. He's like the little boy in the Duchess's song in Alice -- he only does it to annoy because he knows it teases. Just ignore his posts: don't even read them; I don't. Occasionally a word or two might obtrude as I scroll thru, but in general his hobby of abusing me is harmless AFAIAC, as his insults don't impinge. Or every now & then, maybe every 15th or so, I might read one just out of curiosity to see if it's still at it. I did notice somewhere back that he asseverated that I was getting senile. That from him; well har-har-har, that's the best laugh I've had for a while!

He claims to have a PhD but likes to present himself as ignorant as piggi-pooze. Wow, there is rational!

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Sep 14 - 07:10 PM

The word "Palestine" is wrong at this link, but it clearly shows the continuing land grab by Israel. https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=historical+Israel+borders&espv=2&biw=1280&bih=677&tbm=isch&imgil=vCrgkPz-Vk73CM%253A%253BE4vXUeulg7itxM%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.juancole.com%25252F2010%25252F03%25252Fmap-story-of-palestinian-nationhood.html&source=iu&fir=vCrgkPz-Vk73CM%253A%252CE4vXUeulg7itxM%252C_&usg=__vC2REyIxjMWz-lTXeMoncsVH8gI%3D&sa=X&ei=6zYOVKGDApDraJaYgdAL&ved=0CDUQ9QEwAw#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=vCrgkPz-Vk73CM%253A%3BE4vXUeulg7itxM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.juancole.com%252Fimages-ext%252F2010%252F03%252Fmap-story-of-palestinian-nationhood.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.juancole.com%252F2010%252F03%252Fmap-story-of-palestinian-nationhood.html%3B809%3B539

More to follow

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Sep 14 - 07:13 PM

Meanwhile - "Caliphate" - all theocracies are evil. Oh, that also goes for the stealth theocracy in Egypt where the Muslim Brotherhood pretended to be a civil government while planning not ethnic but religious cleansing. Army bad, but better than god-botherers.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 08 Sep 14 - 08:23 PM

Incredible shrinking Israel

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Sep 14 - 06:07 AM

"Jim, this thread is about the Caliphate, so why post attacks on Israel while remaining silent about the horrific atrocities committed by the Caliphate?"
I have not remained silent abut the Caliphate - on the contrary - I have directly attributed their rise to prominence to the West's refusal to help the Arab nations to modernise and to bring some semblance of democracy to their countries.
You, on the other hand, have supported the despots of these countries by opposing the idea that it is wrong to sell them weapons - even to the extent of suggesting that the worst of them, Assad, be supplied with weapons to suppress attempts at modernisation - a view you have continued to put forward.
"while ignoring greater evil all around." There is no greater evil than a religion inspired terrorist regime with nuclear capability and a will to expand.
"Convince us it is not simply because there are no Jews in the Caliphate."
This is not about "Jews" you Antisemitic shitbag - it is about the behaviour of a religion-inspired fascist state with the power to cause this planet to be blown to dust.
Those who hide behind a people who lost millions of their number to a regime not unsimilar to those ruling Israel at the present time by blaming the "Jews" for Israeli atrocities are scum, as are those who defend them.      
"Stop fighting, stop threatening Israel with annihilation and there will be peaceful co-existence and prosperity for all in the region."
Surrender and allow Israel to continue to take over or destroy the homes of Gazans and slaughter everyone who gets in the way of their objective of setting up an apartheid state appears to be what you are trying to say
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Sep 14 - 07:49 AM

"Stop fighting, stop threatening Israel with annihilation and there will be peaceful co-existence and prosperity for all in the region." - Teribus

"Surrender and allow Israel to continue to take over or destroy the homes of Gazans and slaughter everyone who gets in the way of their objective of setting up an apartheid state appears to be what you are trying to say" - Christmas

Since 2005 and Israel's forced eviction of Israelis from Gaza what territorial gains in Gaza have been made by the Israelis?

What apartheid state is being set up and where? The civil rights and privileges of all are protected inside Israel's borders - the same cannot be said for those living under Hamas rule in Gaza

Since signing the Camp David Agreement with Egypt what territorial gains at the expense of the Egyptians have the Israelis made?

"I have not remained silent abut the Caliphate - on the contrary - I have directly attributed their rise to prominence to the West's refusal to help the Arab nations to modernise and to bring some semblance of democracy to their countries." - Christmas

And this is the West's responsibility how exactly? Who was responsible for helping us here in the big, bad, capitalist, "West" to modernise and become democratic? Because you see Christmas if all that was down to self help then the same applies to those Arab nations you are wittering on about, exactly as it was up to those Israelis - Big difference was that while the Israelis managed it quite successfully, the Arabs under leaders such as Tosser Arafat and his Uncle didn't primarily because those leaders were too damned busy getting rich.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Sep 14 - 08:12 AM

Jim, you have not attacked IS behaviour as you have Israel even on this thread!
Massacres.
You only rage about them if you think you can blame Israel.
Beheadings.
Mass Executions.
Enslavement of women.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Sep 14 - 08:34 AM

"Jim, you have not attacked IS behaviour as you have Israel even on this thread!"
I have made my view of ISIS clear - an extremist, terrorist organisation.
I have never uttered a word of support for what they do, I have placed the blame for the them having the power that they have where t belongs
Unlike you, I do not differentiate between one form of religion inspired terrorism - I recognise it for what it is - extreme terrorism - all the same.
"You only rage about them if you think you can blame Israel."
Fuck off Keith.
"what territorial gains in Gaza have been made by the Israelis?"
Israel has just scuppered the possibility of a two state solution with its announcement of the seizure of one thousand acres of land for settlements
Israel have been systematically been driving Be#douins off their lands with chemical weapons and water cannons in order to bulid settlements
Israel is in the process of becoming an apartheid state - no surprise that they tried to sell nuclear weapons to Apartheid South Africa
How about responding to some of those facts me little chocolate soldier?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Sep 14 - 11:47 AM

You do not rage against IS atrocities but endlessly attack Israel, even on unrelated threads like this one.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 09 Sep 14 - 11:56 AM

Michael claims to have a teapot for that matter, but like his brain, the output has an important element missing.

I doubt my academic credentials help me in these threads Michael. I doubt your posts helps the threads for that matter.

Give my regards to your newsagent eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Sep 14 - 12:11 PM

I just asked why you endlessly and only criticise Israel while ignoring greater evil all around.

You don't realise what you've finally admitted, do you, Keith? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Sep 14 - 12:25 PM

It would be so nice to have the remotest idea of what old uno-who is on about re my teapot & my newsagent; anyone any idea? assuming anybody cares! But, please sir, he's trying to wind me up again and he's a hobbible big BULLY trying to wind poor little me up all the time when he knows how I hate being wound up it makes me all tense and sad and, er, well - wound up, so don't let him do it any more please sir or I'll THCWEAM the forum down. I will. I can....

aaaaaarrrrrrgggggggghhhhhhh!!!!!

☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Sep 14 - 02:03 PM

I'm a bit puzzled about the Xtian fundie god-botherers here. Is anyone defending IS or Boko Haram or Al-Shabbab? So no need to shout at people who are not here. A lot of the Xtian fundie god-botherers, and some career menschen seem to want to defend Israel's claim to lebensraum. So there is a need to shout at them.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Sep 14 - 06:16 PM

No one is supporting them, but they are not subject to endless attack like Israel is.
Neither are neighbours like Syria, Egypt and Hamas.
Why the bias?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Sep 14 - 10:20 PM

It is dealing with the arguments presented. You and a small coterie defend Israel. Thus there is something to argue about. Nobody is defending IS etc so there is nothing to shout about there. Some of you try to smear Islam by association and then there is something to shout about. Simple.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Teribus
Date: 10 Sep 14 - 02:26 AM

"I have never uttered a word of support for what they do" - Christmas

And significantly not a single word of outright condemnation either Christmas

"I have placed the blame for the them having the power that they have where t belongs" - Christmas

You apparently think that the fault is OURS - Well Christmas old son IT AIN'T

Christmas if you cannot answer a simple and direct question why not just state that? The answer of course to my question relating to the   territorial gains (Taking over the homes of Gazans) you claim has happened is that there have been none. The borders of GAZA have remained the same since the unilateral and complete withdrawal of the Israelis in 2005 - That by the way Christmas is a fact - and if those in Gaza want the borders open and the blockade lifted then all they have to do is stop attacking Israel - It really is THAT SIMPLE.

No apartheid state - not now, not in the past and not in the future - Same cannot be said for those who "govern" the Caliphate - but no Jews so no news eh Christmas?

You seem to have a penchant for living in the past Christmas - fancy in 2014 quoting alleged past co-operation between Israel and South Africa which ended 25 years ago as being relevant today? I'd call that idiotic.

"You and a small coterie defend Israel. Thus there is something to argue about." - Richard Bridge

You deny Israel the right of self-defence?

"Nobody is defending IS etc so there is nothing to shout about there." - Richard Bridge

Nobody is condemning them either are they Richard, condemnation on this forum is reserved for the big,bad west and for Israel - all others irrespective of the atrocities they commit are given a free ride.

"Some of you try to smear Islam by association and then there is something to shout about. Simple." - Richard Bridge

What IS do is done in the name of Islam Richard so it is IS who besmirches the name of Islam - seen the latest IS flag burning craze amongst moderate Muslims Richard?

"some career menschen seem to want to defend Israel's claim to lebensraum. So there is a need to shout at them." - Richard Bridge

I find your use of the word "lebenstraum" rather offensive but that was your deliberate intent wasn't it? But there again Richard you have never lived in a small country surrounded by it's enemies all calling for and threatening your annihilation. A small country that for the last nine years has been subjected to a barrage of thousands of projectiles and rockets aimed indiscriminately at sections of your civilian population - which is why you witter on about "Israel's claim to lebenstraum" - I personally would call it Israel's right of self-defence. I would sincerely hope that if I lived in Dover and the French launched as much as one single missile at the community in which I lived that the British Government would do something about it - wouldn't you? But we are not talking about one single missile here Richard are we? We are talking about thousands launched over a protracted period - so get your head out of your arse and accept that if Israel is attacked it is perfectly justified in striking back - that is called self-defence.

But to get back to this "lebenstraum" thing of yours. There happens to be an enormous flaw in your argument. I previously asked Christmas to show me any map of what the Palestine Authority/Hamas/Fatah/Hezbollah/Islamic Jihad perceived as being the borders for this "Two State" solution which they say they are fighting for. All I got from Christmas was "Fuck the maps". I now challenge you to come up with a map that shows what the Arabs of Palestine say would be "their" country. I won't hold out any hope of ever seeing one because the map does not exist because they have no interest whatsoever in a two state solution.

Simply put, because the Arabs of Palestine rejected the UN's offer in 1947 there are no recognised borders. The Arabs of Palestine were given their "homeland" for their exclusive use in 1923 (77% of the Mandate of Palestine) they rejected the UN's proposal in 1947 because they wanted more, and after their humiliating defeat in 1967 they then wanted it all - that remains as being the case today.

By the way Richard if you doubt me on there being "no borders" just read through all the past ceasefires brokered by the UN and broken by the Arabs and you will find common to all that the ceasefires are agreed with the exception of them constituting in any way acceptance of borders. So the next time you hear any Palestinian spokesperson talking about 1967 borders just remember that no such border exists to define any state of Israel or any State of Palestine. Besides the 1967 borders defined borders between Israel, Egypt + Egyptian occupied Palestine, Jordan + Jordanian occupied Palestine, Syria and Lebanon. And should there ever be a lasting agreement, the one thing that you will be able to guarantee will be that Israel will be defined by borders she can defend.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Sep 14 - 04:22 AM

Richard, these exchanges always start with an attack on Israel.
Those responsible never attack any other groups in the same way.
When others do, they raise the issue of Israel anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Sep 14 - 04:34 AM

"And significantly not a single word of outright condemnation either Christmas"
As far as \I am concerned, describing these people as extremist murderous nutters is outright enough for me
You crowd hape openly supported Israeli terrorism, the use of chemiccal weapons and heavy artillery on civilians, you have defended Israel's role in facilitating the massacre of three and a half thousand unarmed refugees.... and you have done so using the argument that the Palestinian people have no right to the land they have occupied for thousands of years.
I recently posted a cutting describing the effects some of the weapons have had on people - particularly children - their flesh turned to jelly, new corpses mummified - not a peep from you or yours.
ISIS has been the product of inaction on the part of the West - that is the subject that needs to be discussed - our Government's part in the creation of a maniacal religion-driven force that threatens world peace.
You have chosen to discuss ISIS as a means of attacking Muslims and their religion as a whole - that is why you don't get any takers to your campaign - not because anybody supports ISIS but because we don't want to be part of your Islamophobic shit.
Of course these people are dangerous - so is Israel - even more so because it has the support of powers like America, who are just as capable of using terrorism to fulfill their own ends
What also makes Israel a greater threat is that even though it is ruled by an extremist right-wing regime, it is now being claimed that the majority of Israelis don't believe it to be right-wing enough and what has just happened in Gaza didn't go far enough - that is what puts the shits up me far more than the potential threat to Britain and the West from ISIS.   
To top all this - Israel has nuclear weapons - if it hadn't been for an Israeli hero Mordechai Vanunu, we would be totally unaware of this fact - see below.
You people have taken the side of a killer terrorist regime with a nuclear weapon and you have the gall to accuse us of taking sides by not speaking out loud enough against a bunch of nutters little different from the extremists you shout for and a damn sight more dangerous
What are you people on?
Jim Carroll      

"Vanunu spent 18 years in prison, including more than 11 in solitary confinement. Released from prison in 2004, he became subject to a broad array of restrictions on his speech and movement. Since then he has been arrested several times for violations of those restrictions, including giving various interviews to foreign journalists and attempting to leave Israel. He says he suffered "cruel and barbaric treatment" at the hands of Israeli authorities while imprisoned, and suggests that his treatment would have been different if he had not converted to Christianity from Judaism.[6]
In 2007, Vanunu was sentenced to six months in prison for violating terms of his parole. The sentence was considered unusual even by the prosecution who expected a suspended sentence. In response, Amnesty International issued a press release on 2 July 2007, stating that "The organisation considers Mordechai Vanunu to be a prisoner of conscience and calls for his immediate and unconditional release."[7] In May 2010, Vanunu was arrested and sentenced to three months in jail on a charge that he met foreigners in violation of conditions of his 2004 release from jail."

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Teribus
Date: 10 Sep 14 - 05:59 AM

Your typical hysterical rant in response there I see Christmas. Do you have them stored? You should it would save you a great deal of time and effort.

Care to name some democratic countries in the region? I mean apart from Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Sep 14 - 06:47 AM

Can anyone believe or explain why BBC has done this?!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-29120308

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Sep 14 - 08:56 AM

Posted in haste.
I thought he was someone still being held.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 10 Sep 14 - 09:06 AM

The use of of words such as lebenstraum [sic] and other Nazi era terminology and allusions in the context of Israel by the usual Jew haters is indeed offensive, it is also a libel and marks the users for what they are.

Teribus is 100% correct in stating that there is no such thing as the 1967 borders, what there is is the so called "Green line" which is the demarcation line set out in the 1949 Armistice Agreements between Israel and its neighbors (Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon and Syria) after the 1948 Arab–Israeli War. It is also used to mark the line between Israel and the territories captured in the Six-Day War, including the West Bank, Gaza Strip, Golan Heights and Sinai Peninsula.

The original armistice agreements were clear (at Arab insistence) that they were not creating permanent borders. The Egyptian-Israeli agreement stated "The Armistice Demarcation Line is not to be construed in any sense as a political or territorial boundary, and is delineated without prejudice to rights, claims and positions of either Party to the Armistice as regards ultimate settlement of the Palestine question." From Wiki.

The territorial boundary or border will be determined by negotiation when the Palestinians accept a two state solution.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Sep 14 - 01:53 AM

""I have made it clear that we will hunt down terrorists who threaten our country, wherever they are. That means I will not hesitate to take action against ISIL in Syria, as well as Iraq," - Barack Obama: 10-09-2014

No safe haven.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Sep 14 - 01:45 PM

"That means I will not hesitate to take action against ISIL in Syria, as well as Iraq,"

Although I would like to see the decapitators wiped out, this is a very dangerous course for us all.
Mr Obama could sanction bombing of president Assads forces as well as IS, bringing us into another confrontation with Russia.

Russia backed Assad because he was prepared to stand up to the Islamist Militias,   the FSA was simply a cover or at best "useful idiots" for the extremists.
If the West removes Assad under cover of an attack on the Islamists, the results could be grave.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Sep 14 - 01:49 PM

Islamic fundamentalism is even more of a danger to Russia, than it is to America.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Sep 14 - 03:04 PM

"The use of of words such as lebenstraum [sic] and other Nazi era terminology and allusions in the context of Israel by the usual Jew haters is indeed offensive,"

"THE HOLOCAUST MAKES ISREAL THINK INTERNATIONAL LAW DOESN'T APPLY TO THEM
Lara Marlow in Tel Aviv
Irish Times Thursday 11th September

JOURNALIST GIDEON LEVY IS ISRAELS MOST OUTSPOKEN CRITIC OF ITS WAR ON GAZA
Gideon Levy is preaching in the wilderness. Week after week, the columnist for Haaretz news¬paper tells his compatriots what they do not want to hear: that the siege of Gaza and the occupation of the West Bank are immoral and counter-pro¬ductive; that the continued sei¬zure of Palestinian land and the construction of settlements is a "criminal enterprise" intended to foil any chance for peace.
"What Israeli interest does it serve to put two million people in a cage?" Levy asks. "Tens of thousands of Palestinian chil¬dren will never forget what Isra¬el has done to them and their parents in this [July 8th-August 26th] war. That is something Is¬rael should have taken into ac¬count: another generation of ha¬tred like never before, and very justified hatred."
Levy is grateful to Amos Schocken, the third-generation owner of Haaretz, for standing by him. Some 2,000 readers cancelled subscriptions be¬cause of his July 14th column criticising Israeli air force pi¬lots who bombed Gaza. "They have never seen an enemy plane coming toward them," Levy wrote. "They never saw the whites of the eyes and the red blood of their victims . . . They are heroes battling the weakest, most helpless peo¬ple ..."
Israeli leaders portray their war on Hamas as a fight against terrorism. "Any Palestinian terrorist would rather sit in an Apache helicopter or an F16 and fly over Tel Aviv and push a button to bomb civilians," Levy replies. "Nobody would call it terrorism. Terror is always the weapon of the weak."

TREASON ACCUSATION
During the war, Levy was threatened, heckled and spat upon. Haaretz hired body¬guards to protect him. Yariv Levin, the leader of the Likud Yisrael Beiteinu coalition in the Knesset, said he should be tried for treason, which carries the death penalty in time of war.
"Nobody condemned Lev¬in," Levy says. "That tells you a lot about Israeli democracy
Irael's supporters boast that it is "the only democracy in the Mid¬dle East".
"By definition, an occupying state is not a democracy," Levy says. "Israel was always a full and liberal democracy for its Jewish citizens. It was a partial democracy for its Arab citizens, and a totalitarian tyranny in the West Bank and Gaza. In this war, I started to think it is not even a full democracy for its Jewish citizens; only for those who think like the majority."
Opinion polls showed that up to 95 per cent of Israelis sup¬ported the assault on Gaza. While attention focused on Gaza, the Israel Defence Forces killed 20 adults and three children in the West Bank, mostly during demonstrations against the war in Gaza. Israeli soldiers wounded 2,218 people, 38 per cent of them with live fire.
"In the West Bank, you see the real face of the IDF, the so-called most moral army in the world," Levy says. "You can't claim those soldiers' lives were in danger. You can't claim there were tunnels and rockets and terrorists. But look how they killed."
During the first intifada (1987-1993),_a Palestinian woman who tried to reach a materni¬ty hospital in East Jerusalem was turned round at three Israe¬li checkpoints, and gave birth in a car. "It was cold and stormy," Levy recalls. "She begged the soldiers to take the baby to hos¬pital. They refused. Eventually, she carried the baby, and it died." The incident marked a turning point for Levy. "I could believe there were bad soldiers at one checkpoint. But three? I realised their inhumanity was not an exception, but deeply rooted policy. Ninety nine per cent of Israelis do not see Pales¬tinians as human beings like themselves."
Impunity is a huge problem, Levy says. "Soldiers know that nothing will happen to them if they kill a 10-year-old child like a cockroach."
Israeli officials invariably an¬nounce they are investigating. "It's a joke," says Levy. "A way| of buying time until people for¬get. Nobody takes it seriously. I The army investigates itself?
You have to have a sense of hu¬mour."
On a national level, "Golda Meir said that after the Holo¬caust, Jews have the right to do anything they want," Levy con¬tinues. "The Holocaust makes Israelis think international law doesn't apply to them, because they are the ultimate victims of history; the only victims."
Israel killed more than 1,400 Palestinians in Gaza in Decem¬ber 2008-January 2009. "I was sure that Israel would never dare do it again," Levy says. "That the international commu¬nity would not let them do it again. But this time, it was even more brutal. Israel feels, right¬ly, that no one will stop it. They believe the only language Ar¬abs understand is the language of force. It never works."
Levy believes a "two-state so¬lution" has become impossible, because 700,000 settlers are the most powerful force in Israe¬li politics. Israel and the West Bank "are already one state with two regimes," he says. Op¬ponents of a single state for Is¬raelis and Palestinians say Isra¬el would lose its Jewish charac¬ter. "Where were you all those years when you could have saved the Jewish state by going for a two-state solution?" he asks. "We've missed that train. The struggle now should be for equal rights for Palestinians in one state."
Westerners should support the "Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions" campaign, he ar¬gues, "because there won't be a change from within, because Is¬rael will not be punished for the occupation, because in South Africa it was very effective ... It's the only way to shake Israe¬lis out of their blindness and in¬difference."

HISTORY OF ATROCITIES
When Israel drove more than 700,000 Palestinians from their homes in 1948, "There were many atrocities, some avoidable, some not," Levy says. "The problem is that 1948 never ended. Israel never changed its attitude towards Palestinian rights. Therefore, 1948 is today; 1948 is the confis¬cation of 4,000 dunums [988 acres] on August 31th; 1948 is Gaza."
Levy's parents emigrated from the Sudetenland and Czechoslovakia in 1939. He has lived his entire life in Tel Aviv. "I am very attached to this place. I struggle to make it more just, unsuccessfully, but the struggle has some meaning for me."

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 11 Sep 14 - 03:45 PM

To settle it semantically, please. It is LEBENSRAUM [=living-space]. LEBENSTRAUM would mean 'dream of life'.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Sep 14 - 05:29 PM

Israel democratic, Teribus? You mean, like South Africa under apartheid was democratic, for whites? Like Rhodesia under Iain Smith was democratic, for whites? That kind of democratic? Do you think the Arab second-class citizenry in Israel, that nation which prides itself on calling itself a Jewish state, or the Palestinian families divided by the apartheid wall, or the people made to wait for three days at road-blocks, would agree with your take on what makes a country "democratic"?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Mrrzy
Date: 11 Sep 14 - 09:37 PM

It's a jewish state democratic for the jews... Kind of like the US is democratic for... wait. Oops. Never minnd.

Jordan is a kingdom but their king has been on The Daily Show, so he can't be all bad...

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Sep 14 - 01:31 AM

Unlike old S Africa, all citizens of Israel, Arab and Jew, have equal rights.
The wall was built as a lesser evil, to stop the incursion of mass murdering suicide bombers and as such has been a success.
It will come down as soon as that threat is lifted.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Sep 14 - 01:35 AM

Once again an unrelated thread has been hijacked to attack Israel and prevent discussion of the Caliphate which unprejudiced people like Obama recognise as the real threat to the region and the world.

Why do you people always and only attack Israel while ignoring the far worse behaviour of its neighbours?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Sep 14 - 03:39 AM

&, as you say, "once again" --

We know what the answer to that really is, don't we, Keith?

&, hohum-'once·again'-hohum


They think it isn't but it is...

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Sep 14 - 04:24 AM

"Care to name some democratic countries in the region? I mean apart from Israel."
Care to name a country in the region deliberately creating an Apartheid state - and using heave artillery and chemial weapons to acheive those ends?
I tend to go with Issac Newton on the difference between democracy and freedom:
"Democracy is a lamb and two wolves discussing what they are going to have for dinner.
Freedom is when the lamb takes up a gun and says, "it ain't gonna be me".
Israel is as great a threat to world peace as ISIS - the fact that they have the wherewithal to blow us all to smithereens makes them even more so, and the facts of the number of people they have just slaughtered (mainly non combatants), the homes and facilities they have destroyed and their continued aggression and land seizure showws that they have no regard for the lives and well-being of anybody who gets in their way.
The fact that both isreal and ISIS are driven by a religion-based mission makes them an inseparable subject which you peole are happy to discuss until your stupidity, bigotry and ignorance lands you in the klarts.
Live with it
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Sep 14 - 05:02 AM

Care to name a country in the region deliberately creating an Apartheid state

Not Israel, but Egypt denies basic citizenship right to its Bedouin population.
That is apartheid and none of you ever criticise it.
Several Arab states around Israel keep the descendants of the Palestinian refugees in camps and deny them citizenship rights.
That is apartheid and none of you ever criticise it.

No Jews no views?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Sep 14 - 05:29 AM

"I tend to go with Issac Newton on the difference between democracy and freedom:
"Democracy is a lamb and two wolves discussing what they are going to have for dinner.
Freedom is when the lamb takes up a gun and says, "it ain't gonna be me". - Christmas

Wrong again Christmas Issac Newton said nothing of the sort

The precise quote comes from Benjamin Franklin as reads:

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."

Israel only represents a threat to anyone who would threaten and attack Israel - their track record since the country declared independence in 1948 demonstrates this - Fact clearly substantiated and easily verified - simple matter of record.

An Apartheid State eh? Here is another simple matter of record for you Christmas:

Demographics of Israel:
Population of Israel 1949 to 2008

Almost 21% of Israel's 8.2 million population are Arabs that has grown from only 10% in 1948. Today the make-up of the population consists of:
Jews - 75%
Arabs - 20.7%
Christians & Druze - 4.3%

Demographics of Palestine - West Bank:
Muslim - 80-85%
Christian - 1.0-2.5%
Jewish - 12-14%

Demographics of Palestine - Gaza:
Muslims - 98-99%
Christian - 0.7%

(Wot - No Jews??)

Demographics of Jordan:
Muslim - 92%
Christian - 6%
Others - 2% (Minute communities of Shia Muslims and Druze)

(Wot - No Jews??)

Demographics of Lebanon:
Muslims - 54%
Christian - 40.5%
Druze - 5.5%

(Wot - No Jews??)

Demographics of Syria:
Muslims - 87%
Christians - 10%
Druze - 3%

(Wot - No Jews??)

Demographics of Egypt:
Muslim - 90%
Christian - 10%

(Wot - No Jews??)

Seems to me Christmas that the only State in the region that demonstrates tolerance, equality and respect for all the religions and people of the region is ISRAEL. Which blows rather a large hole in your contention that:

"The fact that both isreal and ISIS are driven by a religion-based mission makes them an inseparable subject which you peole are happy to discuss until your stupidity, bigotry and ignorance lands you in the klarts."

Now I can see the "religion-based mission" clearly in the behaviour of ISIS in any area they rumble into - that message is clear and as plain as a pikestaff - Convert or Die - those being offered the choice only being given brief seconds to comply. Any even remotely similar instances you can give demonstrating that the Israeli's have ever done anything like that? - Don't tax yourself Christmas that was a rhetorical question plainly answered by the demographics of Israel and by the demographic trends over the last 66 years.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Sep 14 - 05:56 AM

Thank yo for the correction - doesn't invalidate the quote though nor alter its significance in any way.
"Israel only represents a threat to anyone who would threaten and attack Israel "
Israel has threatened and attacked anyody who got in the way of the setting up of a Jewish state from the beginning - the British left Palestine to the sound of Arab homes being rippred apart by hand-granades, many still with the occupants in them
It does not demonstrate tolerance, equality and respect in any way for anybody other than the Israeli people - The Equality report shows that in detail, the setting up of an Apartheid State has formalised that fact and offering to sell nuclear weapons to Apartheid South Africa is a clear indication that the Israeli regime has no problem with the system or its behaviour.
The setting up of a State for 'The Chosen People' as a god given right declared my Zionist extremists is indication enough of the religious content of its policy
This has nothing to do with Judaism any more than the behaviour of Islamic fanatics has to do with the Muslim religion - in both cases it is the action of religious extremists.
These facts have been stated by Jews and non-Jews alike - you fail even to mention Gideon Levi's statement, let alone respond to it.
"Not Israel, but Egypt denies basic citizenship right to its Bedouin population."
Israel has shown its attitude to the Bedouins in the shape of spraying them with chemicals in order to drive them off their farms and attempting to drive them onto toxic sites
No nation has a monopoly on the abuse of itinerate people - Britain being among the worst offenders.
If we can't discuss Israel on this thread - how come we can discuss Egypt
Thought virtually every discussion on Israel/Palestine, you have attempted to divert the discussion to elsewhere, Egypt included in order not to discuss Israeli atrocities.
Now, when we discuss a Muslim Extremism, Israel, another state influenced by religious extremism, becomes thread-drift.
And now you want to talk about Egypt again.
Israel is in the process of creating an Apartheid State - that fact has been condemned by Jews and non-Jews alike - you don't bother to comment when you are given examples of Jews criticising the Israeli regime
You people are a joke
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 12 Sep 14 - 08:01 AM

Israel is by far the most racially mixed and tolerant nation in the entire Muslim Middle East. Arabs, who are about 20% of Israel's population, enjoy, without any exception, the same rights and opportunities in all fields as their Jewish fellow citizens. The total equality of all Israelis is assured in Israel's founding document. All non-Jews (which means primarily Muslim Arabs) have full voting rights. At present, eleven Arabs sit in Israel's Knesset (parliament): Three Arabs are deputy speakers. Arabs are represented in Israel's diplomatic service all over the world. Arab students may and do study in all Israeli universities. All children in Israel are entitled to subsidized education until graduation, without any restrictions based on color or religions. In short, Muslim Arabs and other non-Jews are allowed everything that Jews are allowed, everything that non-Whites were not allowed in apartheid South Africa.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Sep 14 - 08:46 AM

Your quote came from Flame - Facts and logic About the Middle East
This is how Israel and spokesmen likeFlame display their tolerance
Jim Carroll

ISRAELI TOLERANCE

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Sep 14 - 09:37 AM

Do you dispute anything in Bobad's post Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Sep 14 - 10:16 AM

"Do you dispute anything in Bobad's post Jim?"
Absolutely
Don't suppose you do though.
Do you dispute what Mondoweiss has to say about Israeli equality?
What do you think of what Mr Levi has to say about Israeli war crimes
How about The Inequality report - you've never shared your infallibility on that one?
How about all those children turned to jelly or mummified - not a peep?
You claime Israel isn't creating an Apartheid state - many Jews do - Anti-Semites, no doubt.
Have you decided which one of you is Laurel and which one Hardy yet?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Sep 14 - 10:23 AM

Please identify which fact(s) in Boberts post that you dispute Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Sep 14 - 11:23 AM

"Please identify which fact(s) in Boberts post that you dispute Jim."
Pleae respond to the pints I have put up over and over again and you have chosen to ignore
And before you accuse me of avoiding your question - count how many you have refused to answer.
If you don't feel you want to respond to awkward questions, I suggest you go somewhere you are able to cherry-pick only the ones you want
Your starter for ten:
"Do you dispute what Mondoweiss has to say about Israeli equality?
What do you think of what Mr Levi has to say about Israeli war crimes
How about The Inequality report - you've never shared your infallibility on that one?
How about all those children turned to jelly or mummified - not a peep?
You claim Israel isn't creating an Apartheid state - many Jews do - Anti-Semites, no doubt."
Left out the Laurel and Hardy one - it doesn't matter, you're both a pair of clowns.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Sep 14 - 11:55 AM

In any country with freedom of speech there will be many voices raised in condemnation of their own country.
I acknowledge that you have found a few Jews and Israelis who do that.
So what?
Bobad's post is factually correct.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 12 Sep 14 - 12:06 PM

Take subjective writings by people with agendas, copy and paste them into Mudcat and call anyone a liar who disputes them.

I wonder how any of you would fare at actually debating this subject? To date, your immaturity has been fucking hilarious, or would be if some of it wasn't so odious.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Sep 14 - 05:26 PM

Lying again Musket?
Bugger. I missed it this time.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST,Iznogoud
Date: 12 Sep 14 - 05:41 PM

Je veux etre Calife au place du Calife!

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Sep 14 - 06:30 PM

Arabs, who are about 20% of Israel's population, enjoy, without any exception, the same rights and opportunities in all fields as their Jewish fellow citizens.

Yeah, right, minnow. Ask the guys who get held up for three days at road blocks, the people who are prevented from visiting their families, the thousands held without charge in Israeli jails, the Palestinian farmers whose land was slashed in half by the apartheid wall, whether they think that they enjoy "the same rights and opportunities in all fields as their Jewish fellow citizens". None so blind...

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Sep 14 - 04:52 AM

You seem to be calling the West Bank Israel, you old reactionary.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Sep 14 - 05:14 AM

Still no comment on children burned to jelly and all the other thinks you have refused to answer on the grounds thet "it might incriminate Israel"
A bit more about Israeli "Antisemites" for you to ignore.
Jim Carroll

IRISH TIMES Sat 13th Sept
ISRAELI RESERVES REFUSE TO SPY ON PALESTINIANS
Dozens of reserve soldiers from Israel's top electronic surveillance unit say they will no longer spy on Palestinians living under occupation, in an unprecedented rebuke to prime minister Binyamin Netanyahu's security policies.
A protest letter signed by 43 veterans of Unit 8200, sent to Mr Netanyahu and armed forces chiefs and excerpted by Israel's biggest-selling news-paper yesterday, was dismissed by the military as a publicity stunt by a small fringe.
Criticising eavesdropping on Palestinians and the role such espionage plays in set¬ting, up air strikes that have of¬ten inflicted civilian casualties, the move opened a window on clandestine practices.
It also tapped into wider international debate over the ethics of state surveillance following last year's media leaks by Edward Snowden, a former contractor with the National Security Agency (NSA), the US counterpart to Unit 8200.
"We refuse to take part in actions against Palestinians and refuse to continue serving as a tool for deepening military rule in the occupied (Palestinian) territories," Yedioth Ah-ronoth daily quoted the letter as saying.
"Intelligence allows ongoing control over millions of people, thorough and intrusive monitoring and invasion into most aspects of life. All of this does not allow for normal living, fuels more violence and puts off any end to the conflict."
No signatories' names.were published but several were interviewed anonymously by Yedioth and by Israel's Army Radio. They complained about what they described as the abusive gathering of Palestinians' private information such as sexual preferences or health problems "that might be used to extort people into becoming informants".

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 Sep 14 - 05:38 AM

I was going to stay out of this: esp as Israel, as I said before, is only marginally relevant to this thread, & seems to me to have been dragged in doctrinairely by some with motives which I find -- let's say, somewhat amibivalent ["They think they're not but they are!"].

But I must point out to Keith that the West Bank is not any sort of separate enclave, and what is going on there is part of a distressing gestalt of unnecessarily restrictive roadblocks, destruction of livelihoods & property, aggressive expansion; which as is known has driven me into the camp of Levy & those "count-us-out" reservists in Jim's last paste. Israel is still where I wish my traditional & longstanding loyalties could remain; but the goings-on of it these days militate strongly against this. The faults are not all on one side. Israeli reactions are historically based, going right back to Arab neighbour reactions in 1948, 1967, et al; and understandable therefore up to a point -- but that 'point' has been far surpassed IMO. Wish I could accept their present actions & attitudes with as much defensive insouciance as Bobad & Keith & Teribus.

But alas I cannot. The place remains, as I never tire of saying, one of the major griefs and disappointments of my long life.

Where is it all going to end? Don't expect I shall live to find out. But my hopes are not sanguine.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Sep 14 - 10:20 AM

Jim, burned children is an obscenity.
Michael, we had been comparing human rights in Israel and elsewhere.
West Bank is not in Israel and things are different there.

The roadblocks may be "unnecessarily restrictive" but that is arguable.
Do you doubt that lives would be lost if they were removed altogether?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 Sep 14 - 12:13 PM

I'm not objecting to the checkpoints & roadblocks in themselves, Keith. They probably serve an essential purpose, and are among the things which some dissident elements have brought on themselves [and everyone else] by persistent unnecessary intransigence. But it's the well-authenticated stories of sadistic jumped-up lower-rank Israeli jacks-in-office keeping harmless and perfectly co-operative ordinary Palestinians hanging about for three days for clearance thru checkpoints, "just becoz they can", so that they might miss the family celebration they are on their way to or whatever, that stick right in my craw and fill me with despair as to the actual real outcome of all the dreams of my long-ago youth. Apart from the real aggression and oppression, there seems to be so much pettiness -- which is why I was so upset about those uprooted olive groves that symbolically as well as literally represented people's livings, which Jim can never get the point of what he seems to regard as my both excessive and "lip-serving" grief over. Can hardly go on posting for moist eyes -- and that's not just a form of words...

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 13 Sep 14 - 12:59 PM

You know, in 1984, I had views on roadblocks. Views that don't come from sitting in a wingback chair pontificating on experiences of others. Arabs in Israel have to live with it all the time, and for us in North Notts / South Yorkshire a few months till the local police stopped their bussed in mates from doing it was bad enough.

Come to think of it, in Israel our agent's best salesman was desk bound because as an Arab, he suffered from harassment by police etc when going about his lawful business.   (On their Sabbath, everybody is harassed in some areas, so a bit less of the "aren't they multicultural and normal" shit, because they certainly are not. Not even to rational people of Jewish ancestry."

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Sep 14 - 04:25 PM

Where the hell is BullShotBruce? Is he still sulking? Or holding hs breath 'till he turns blue?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Sep 14 - 05:17 PM

I so enjoy your stories Musket.
Michael, officious petty officials abuse their power everywhere, not just in Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 13 Sep 14 - 05:19 PM

Greg, this thread is about the Caliphate, if you want to discuss Bruce start your own thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 Sep 14 - 05:29 PM

There would be redress for such abuses of power in any worthwhile society, Keith: channels available for complaint. Don't tell me you, yourself, would put up with any such obstrucionism from any officious official (even if you came across an instance of it — the particular sort of abuses I rubricate just wouldn't happen here, for all your "everywhere" — tell me, please, where "everywhere" else they happen in the manner , and to the extent, that I relate). But what channels of complaint do you imagine would be open to as Palestinian Arab who had been spitefully delayed for days at a checkpoint, over some imagined or invented lacuna in his papers or whatever? I fear I think you are being naif and obstructive in your argument here.

And don't forget that I am on your side, dammit -- or wish I could be...

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 Sep 14 - 05:39 PM

You are not allowing for the fact that, whatever inefficiencies or pettinesses might occur "everywhere", the sort I am complaining of here are those that occur only when a particular "victim" demographic has been identified by convention who can be thus treated with impunity. Are you happy that Israel should contain such a demographic? Because I am not. It's not a factor of the sort of society I thought I was devoting all those youthful energies to creating, back in my Zionist 1940s youth. My sister organised the Federation of Zionist Youth branch in our part of N London; the organisation used to meet every week in our house. This wasn't what we were striving for, believe me...

Oh, bugger it, you are making me emotional again. I really can't maintain this line of argument. It is just too intolerably painful and distressing to me

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Sep 14 - 06:36 PM

Greg, this thread is about the Caliphate, if you want to discuss Bruce start your own thread.

Boo, absolutely the LAST thing I want to discuss is BullShot himself.
That's been dealt with elsewhere, and I tyhink we've all got his number sevaral times over.

I was just wondering about his absence. Not complaining, mind you - its a refreshing change.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Sep 14 - 04:39 AM

Michael,
Don't tell me you, yourself, would put up with any such obstrucionism from any officious official (even if you came across an instance of it — the particular sort of abuses I rubricate just wouldn't happen here,

In 1914 and 1940, yes I would put up with it, and people here did.
Also the rounding up of mostly harmless German families and incarcerating them in remote camps.

People accepted it because our very national survival was threatened, and it was understood that as soon as the threat was removed we would become a tolerant welcoming country again.

Israel has had to live under threat all its years. That inevitably forces them to be more authoritarian than they would like to be while the threat persists.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Sep 14 - 05:18 AM

I was there in 1940, Keith. Were you?

Yes; there were petty regulations in the national defensive interest. My father was an air raid warden [just like Mr Hodges] who would knock on people's doors to tell them they were showing a light and insisting they switch it off or adjust their blackout. But he didn't have the power to prevent their leaving the house for three days, if he felt like it. You are really not comparing like with like. These regulations did not involve wilful abrogation of basic rights, or the kind of sadistic assertion of authority for the sole purpose of causing maximum inconvenience which Israel's checkpoints operate. I don't think you remember it. I do: I was in London right thru the blitz, and having to have lessons is air raid shelters was, I assure you, not the same sort of experience you are trying to compare it with. I am getting incoherent again. All becoz of what stinking Israel has turned into has done to my life & aspirations! You try living with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Sep 14 - 08:18 AM

In 1914 and 1940, yes I would put up with it, and people here did.

Yup, FKWT, and in the U.S. folks "put up with" the Palmer Raids, the "Red Scare", the Dies Committee, etc. because of hysteria and an imagined threat.

Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
    ...Benjamin Franklin

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Sep 14 - 09:38 AM

The difference in Britain Greg was that the threat was very real and our survival was indeed a close run thing both times.

Michael, I think you are judging too hard a small nation at constant threat of mass murder, a threat that all too often has become horrific reality.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Sep 14 - 09:45 AM

constant threat of mass murder, a threat that all too often has become horrific reality.

Like the Palestinians in Gaza have to put up with, ya mean?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 14 Sep 14 - 09:53 AM

Jordanian-Palestinian Politician: There Is No ISIS Ideology – It's Islam

YouTube

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Sep 14 - 10:11 AM

No Greg.
Gaza chooses to be at war with Israel and could stop it anytime.

Enough about Israel.
This thread is about the evil Caliphate.
They just beheaded an aid worker simply because of his nationality.
Why do you people never want to talk about the real threat to the region and to the world?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Sep 14 - 10:48 AM

No I'm not, Keith. I recognise the threat[s]. But I feel that this vindictive picking on Arabs by petty officialdom can only exacerbate an unfortunate situation, & is going to prove counter-productive in terms of international image and support, and any hopes of eventually reaching any sort of settlement. And I repeat that your comparisons with the sort of necessary and reasonable regulations which any administration has to introduce in times of national emergency, as eg the nuisance I found it in 1940 having to carry my bloody gas-mask everywhere, and always have my identity card, and the fiddling piddling biznis of ration books & coupons, will not hold against the sort of wilful spitefulness I have instanced, like people kept hanging about for days at checkpoints just because the jacks-in-office can, and know they won't be held accountable -- which I note you have not contradicted.

You haven't answered my question -- did you experience it all in the 1940s? Because, if not, I think you ill-advised to argue with one who did.

Best regards

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 14 Sep 14 - 12:11 PM

MGM, not saying that it's right or wrong but perhaps it's incidents like this CLICK that create the conditions where psychological warfare is employed as a tool to maintain some degree of stasis in a society where simply taking a wrong turn can get you and your family killed.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Sep 14 - 01:04 PM

I am not arguing Michael, and I was not meaning you re. ignoring the threat posed by Islamism while attacking Israel.
I was born in 1950, but I know that German people were forcibly interned and that some of those given power over others,like Home Guard on check points, let it go to their heads.
Did that never happen?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Sep 14 - 01:09 PM

let it go to their heads.

Hmmm... like certain people allow their faith in their own erudition and infallibility to go to their heads.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Sep 14 - 01:45 PM

Not to any extent that I ever heard of, Keith. There are always a few who will let temporary authority go to their heads. But certainly nothing like on the scale I am on about!

Of course some of Germans living here, or happening to be here at the outbreak of war, would be interned as "enemy aliens", after appearing before risk-assessing boards &c. So were British subjects of dubious loyalty in their political records, like the Mosleys &c. That would be fully in accord with Geneva Convention, &c. I believe they lived quite comfortably in camps set up for the purpose on the Isle of Man. But seriously, you couldn't have enemy nationals of ex members of the British Union of Fascists living at large within the community, could you? Both the community and they themselves would have felt threatened, uncomfortable, anomalous.

see

http://www.airfieldinformationexchange.org/community/showthread.php?6891-WWII-Internment-Camps-in-the-Isle-of-Man

where some amazing facts can be found about internees buying local properties &c.

It really isn't relevant, or in any way comparable, to bona fide Arab citizens of Israel going about their lawful occasions being harrassed and inconvenienced for the sake of it.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: robomatic
Date: 14 Sep 14 - 07:05 PM

It really isn't relevant, or in any way comparable, to bona fide Arab citizens of Israel going about their lawful occasions being harrassed and inconvenienced for the sake of it.

You mean like Jews in Europe these days?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Sep 14 - 09:51 PM

You mean like Jews in Europe these days?

No. Don't be sophomoric.

Or are you alluding to criticism of Israeli government policy?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Sep 14 - 09:54 PM

Why do you people never want to talk about the real threat to the region and to the world?

Oh but we DO, FKWT - and many times the real threat is gullible idiots like yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Sep 14 - 12:30 AM

Afraid cannot make heads or tails of what point robomatic is making.

Clarification?

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Sep 14 - 08:27 AM

Greg, Independent today.

"John Woodock, a Labour member of the Commons Defence Committee, described the "twisted" ideology of Isis as the greatest threat to global and British values since Nazi Germany. Joining Conservative MPs in calling for Britain to lead the fight against extremism in the Middle East, he said: "Just like the rise of the Nazis, we will all ultimately be held to account for what we did or did not do in confronting the threat when we had the chance." "
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/islamic-state-government-must-heed-lessons-from-previous-iraq-war-says-ken-clarke-

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Sep 14 - 09:52 AM

So who's John Woodock when he's home, FKWT, and why is his opinion superior to anyone else's?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Sep 14 - 09:54 AM

PS: your link don't work.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Sep 14 - 09:57 AM

You think you know better?
And you call me rude names!

BBC today Greg.
"Opening the summit, French president Francois Hollande said IS "threatens the whole of the Middle East and the rest of the world", adding: "Every country is involved and we have to do everything to stop the indoctrination of our young, break the jihadi networks and remove the group's funding."

"About 30 countries are gathered for the talks which are aimed at coordinating a strategy against IS militants who have taken control of parts of Northern Iraq and Syria."

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Sep 14 - 10:00 AM

Sorry about the Independent link greg.
Use this,
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/islamic-state-government-must-heed-lessons-from-previous-iraq-war-says-ken-clarke-9724858.html

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Sep 14 - 10:02 AM

1200!

And a BBC link if you need it,
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-29201765

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: robomatic
Date: 15 Sep 14 - 05:10 PM

In answer to a question above (MGM Lion) a severely truncated NY Times article:

Why Jews Are Worried
Deborah E. Lipstadt on the Rising Anti-Semitism in Europe

ATLANTA — AN old Jewish joke goes like this: "What's the definition of a Jewish telegram? 'Start worrying. Details to follow.' "
I am often asked by fellow Jews about contemporary manifestations of anti-Semitism, particularly in Europe. "Is this just like 1939? Are we on the cusp of another Holocaust?" Until now, my answer has been an unequivocal "no." I have criticized community leaders who, either out of genuine concern or to advance their own purposes, use Holocaust analogies to describe contemporary conditions. These claims are ahistorical. They overstate what is going on now and completely understate the situation in 1939.
The differences between then and now are legion. When there is an outbreak of anti-Semitism today, officials condemn it. This is light-years away from the 1930s and 1940s, when governments were not only silent but complicit. Memory also distinguishes the present from previous events. Now, in contrast to the 1930s, we know matters can escalate. Jews today are resolute in their determination: "Never again."
And despite all this I wonder if I am too sanguine. Last month, pro-Gaza protesters on Kurfürstendamm, the legendary avenue in Berlin, chanted, "Jews, Jews, cowardly swine." Demonstrators in Dortmund and Frankfurt chanted, "Hamas, Hamas; Jews to the gas!" And a pro-Hamas marcher in Berlin broke away from the crowd and assaulted an older man who was quietly standing on a corner holding an Israeli flag.
On the eve of Bastille Day, a group of Parisian Jews were trapped in a synagogue by pro-Palestinian rioters and had to be rescued by the police. A few weeks ago signs were posted in Rome urging a boycott of 50 Jewish-owned businesses. In central London last week, anti-Israel protesters targeted a Sainsbury's grocery, and the manager reflexively pulled kosher products off the shelves. (The supermarket chain later apologized.)
......
The article ends with:
......
The telegram has arrived. Jews are worrying. It is time for those who value a free, democratic, open, multicultural and enlightened society to do so, too. This is not another Holocaust, but it's bad enough.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Sep 14 - 05:37 PM

Ah, thanks, robomatic. Got your point now.

But answer to your question is:- no, I do not mean like that at all. Unfortunate social trends containing violence & threats, condemned & suppressed by the authorities, do not seem to me the same thing at all as petty abuses carried out by the competent authorities, to keep certain demographics "in their place" & remind them who is boss; which seems to me a fair summary of what those obstructive Israeli checkpoint operators are up to. I didn't work so hard all my youthful days to watch from afar such nasty goings-on as that.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Sep 14 - 03:07 AM

The main Sunni Arab tribes in Iraq are now backing Iraq's new Unity Government, a new coalition has been formed with the objective of taking on IS and the US has widened the scope of what are viewed as being legitimate targets for air strikes. There are sufficient Iraqi and Kurdish "Boots-on-the-ground" and offers of additional troops by fellow Arab coalition states have been declined.

Sit back and watch what happens.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Sep 14 - 04:46 AM

The UN General Assembly and committees plus Jim, Steve and Greg always and only attack Israel.

Those who have to make real decisions in the real world understand that the real threat is Islamism not Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Sep 14 - 09:15 AM

Why Jews Are Worried...

And, of course, this has nothing whatsoever to do with the atrocities committed by Israel, right?

And here we go, once again, conflating opposition to the activities of the right-wing zionist Government of Israel with anti-semitism.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Sep 14 - 09:19 AM

the real threat is Islamism not Israel.

Unless, of course, you just happen to be Palestinian.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 16 Sep 14 - 09:29 AM

"Unless, of course, you just happen to be Palestinian."

The Palestinians living in Gaza, who are victims of the Islamist group Hamas, would beg to differ.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Sep 14 - 10:10 AM

Greg, some Palestinians are obviously a threat to Israel (suicide bombs, murders, tunnels, missiles, etc.) but I dispute that Israel is a threat to any Palestinians except in defence against all that.

Islamism really is a threat to the whole region and the whole world.
It should get more attention from Mudcat and UN, and Israel should get less.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Sep 14 - 11:13 AM

The Palestinians living in Gaza, who are victims of the Islamist group Hamas,

Yeah, right. So Israeli armed forces didn't kill anyone in Gaza.

Which parallel universe do you inhabit,Boo?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 16 Sep 14 - 11:33 AM

If Hamas hadn't fired hundreds of rockets and mortars into Israel there wouldn't have been one Palestinian killed. Why did Hamas fire those rockets and mortars into Israel?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Sep 14 - 11:38 AM

Do you inhabit a universe where all Gazans love Hamas Greg?
What about those Gazan men and women who were hooded and shot in the crowded streets after Friday prayers?
And what about the Caliphate Greg?
It actually is the subject of this thread and the subject of an unprecedented international effort against it.
Any views?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Mrrzy
Date: 16 Sep 14 - 01:20 PM

A small gesture, but I am not going to call ISIS or ISL or whatever the islamic anything. They shall not be linked in my terminology to the thing they claim to represent but which repudiates them.

And repudiate is a great word. I used to think it was redupiate and you did it to punish duplicity. Made sense to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Sep 14 - 02:09 PM

f Hamas hadn't fired hundreds of rockets and mortars into Israel there wouldn't have been one Palestinian killed

Please, Boo- that's simply one more excuse for Israeli imperialism. "But Johnny hit me first". How many Israelis were killed bu Hamas rockets, by the way?

My view? Get a life, FKWT.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 16 Sep 14 - 04:22 PM

Why did Hamas fire those rockets and mortars into Israel, Greg?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Sep 14 - 05:21 PM

Hey, Boo, review all of the atrocities Israel has perpetrated upon the Palestinians in Gaza & then get back to me, OK?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 16 Sep 14 - 05:26 PM

Just as I thought.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Sep 14 - 06:21 PM

But you still have no answer or facts to refute 'em have ya, Boo ?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 16 Sep 14 - 06:26 PM

Why did Hamas fire those rockets and mortars into Israel, Greg?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Sep 14 - 07:51 PM

Boo, Why did Israel indescriminately shell and anihalate Gaza hospitals, schools, & civilian neighborhoods resulting in sevaral thousands of dead civilians?

Of course, being Palestinians, in your world, they don't count.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 16 Sep 14 - 07:57 PM

Thank you Greg, you need not say more.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: robomatic
Date: 16 Sep 14 - 09:51 PM

Let's stick with Iraq and the Caliphate, we've already got a couple threads with the back and forth over Israelis and Palestinians, and it's full of good arguments and a bit of invective. Let's have some good insights into whether or not the land-holding group known as ISIS, ISIL, or IS, is indeed evil, a threat to the United States, and whether it's an over-reaction to be planning to bomb their asses, and whether or not there will inevitably be a need for 'boots on the ground' which President Obama has indicated will not happen.

As for the past, I'm wondering why the Iraqi Army backpedaled so fast when faced with the I S pouring over the border from Syria, why they let so much materiel fall into their hands.

As for the present, I S attempted genocide (see the Yazidi thread) and is basically enslaving the population of Mosul under their version of Sharia law.

As for the future, I believe they present at least the same kind of threat to the world as the Taliban, by giving room and opportunity for terrorists who wish to export their violence. And of course they are a re-infection point to Syria.

I think it's worthwhile to question what we can do simply by air attacks. I don't think it will be enough. Someone said we'll run out of F16s before they run out of teenagers in pickup trucks.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Sep 14 - 02:02 AM

By all means - "Let's stick with Iraq and the Caliphate".

As to insights into:

1: "whether or not the land-holding group known as ISIS, ISIL, or IS, is indeed evil

For my money it most certainly is, and I would peg that label on any terrorist group who thinks that they can impose their will and their beliefs on any other group of people at gunpoint irrespective of nationality, race, colour or creed.

2: "whether or not it poses a threat to the United States

IS in declaring the establishment of "their" Caliphate have openly threatened the United States, the United Kingdom and other states in the same way that Al-Qaeda did. They have taken hostage foreign nationals and murdered them. The US largely ignored and dismissed threats from such a source before and it learned to bitterly regret it - the same mistake will never be repeated.

3: "whether it's an over-reaction to be planning to bomb their asses

The people to ask about this are those currently and most at risk of suffering under IS "rule" - I do not think for a second that they would say that it is an over-reaction.

In Afghanistan after the Russians had quit the country the Pakistani ISI and Government wanted to put in place an Afghan Government that would do their bidding, an Afghan Government that they could control. Initially their hopes were pinned on Gulbuddin Hekmatyar (Who they had been grooming since 1975) but he proved to be a dead-end. So late in 1994 the Pakistani ISI created "The Taliban" under Mullah Muhammad Omar and set it on its way to take Afghanistan. Opposing the Taliban were the warlords who controlled the various factions of the Mujahideen who had fought the Russians. The Taliban backed to the hilt by the Pakistani Government, Army and Intelligence Services fought that group which came to be known as "The Northern Alliance" for seven years and failed to defeat them. It was this "civil war" that the US and GWB used to drive the Taliban and Al-Qaeda out of Afghanistan and they did it by providing the Northern Alliance with air power, the only "boots-on-the-ground" required were 1,200 Special Advisors - the combination of ~35,000 men from the Northern Alliance, ~65 combat aircraft from two USN Aircraft Carriers and those 1,200 Special Advisors succeeded in running the Taliban and their Al-Qaeda guests out of Afghanistan in 71 days - today the "leadership" of both the Taliban and Al-Qaeda are still hiding out in Pakistani ISI supplied "safe houses" in Pakistan.

As long as the Iraqi Army and the Kurdish Peshmerga forces are supported by US air power and supplied and armed by members of the international community, IS will get nowhere, particularly now that the main Sunni Arab tribes in Iraq are behind the new national "unity" Government. The method is being unveiled in the North of Iraq. Because of the presence of US aircraft IS cannot move (Any time they attempt to do so in any number they get hit) the villages, and towns they occupy are isolated and surrounded, then Iraqi or Peshmerga forces go in. The process is slow but sure. Merely the threat of air strikes inside Syria prevents any serious or effective IS attempt at reinforcement of their troops inside Iraq.


4: "whether or not there will inevitably be a need for 'boots on the ground'

General Dempsey has raised the point that IF he thought it necessary and it became apparent that US ground forces were required for specific operations then he would have no hesitation in recommending that course of action to the President and request the troops required. Personally I do not think such troops will prove necessary.

5: "As for the past, I'm wondering why the Iraqi Army backpedaled so fast when faced with the I S pouring over the border from Syria, why they let so much materiel fall into their hands."

In December 2011 US Forces left Iraq leaving behind it an Iraqi Army that was fairly well trained and competent. Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri Al-Maliki then started meddling with it and replaced many officers and senior commanders with his Shia factions favourites - these were the Iraqi Army Officers and Commanders who ran from IS Forces. That is now no longer a problem, as the Iraqi Army has demonstrated.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Sep 14 - 05:03 AM

whether or not the land-holding group known as ISIS, ISIL, or IS, is indeed evil

They obviously do not believe themselves to be the bad guys.
By our values they are, but I would say they are in absolute terms too.
Cruelty is evil and they revel in it.
Taking women and girls as sexual slaves is condoned in the Koran so that is less clear cut absolute evil.
Likewise killing people because of their nationality or faith.

Good or evil, they declare us to be their enemies and threaten us so of course we must resist them.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Sep 14 - 09:23 AM

They obviously do not believe themselves to be the bad guys.

Nor did the U.S. of A. when it supported dictatorships in the region for years, or when Iraq was invaded in Bush's Bogus War & etc.

Blowback. Chickens coming home to roost.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Sep 14 - 09:30 AM

So what, Greg. One can never start anywhere but here, where one is. All this feeble piddling about trying to apportion blame, instead of finding some way to deal with the situation as it exists, helps no-one, & is merely a distraction. What possible satisfaction are you getting from your everlasting "Yah sux-boo, tu quoque", for crying out loud!

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Sep 14 - 09:41 AM

Sorry, M, but if ya don't know and admit how ya got where you are today, ya won't be able to come up with a valid plan to deal with the situation tomorrow.

Just deja vu, all over again.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Sep 14 - 09:50 AM

Agreed that knowledge of history, and of how we got where we are, may be relevant in dealing with any situation; but don't think that quite the same as constant cries of ""U-dun-it": "No it was U..." ad ∞.

Still, take your point; but surely time to move on?

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Sep 14 - 10:19 AM

finding some way to deal with the situation as it exists

Well, first the U.S. needs to realize that it lost the war in Iraq quite some time ago. The situation there, pre-ISIS, was considerably worse that it was under Saddam, thanks to the U.S. And its probably a forgone conclusion that Baghdad will fall. And the civil war in Syria WILL continue, whether the U.S. "does something" or not.

The U.S. (and the world?) has apparently forgotten that it went thru this same business in Vietnam, with the same result.

The way for the U.S. to "deal with the situation" is to accept the fact that the best course of action is to do nothing.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 17 Sep 14 - 10:32 AM

"The situation there, pre-ISIS, was considerably worse that it was under Saddam,"

Tell that to the two million killed under Saddam.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Sep 14 - 10:37 AM

I don't have to "tell it" to anyone, Boo - its a fact, like global warming, acepted by about 99% of folks.

But not you, apparently.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Sep 14 - 05:09 AM

Australian security forces have made arrests over a plot from IS to snatch people off the street and behead them in Australia.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-29245611

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Sep 14 - 05:21 AM

Story in Independent today.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/australasia/isis-plan-to-behead-random-member-of-the-public-in-sydney-thwarted-by-australian-police-9739844.html

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 18 Sep 14 - 08:58 AM

Greg, Greg.....you are now stretching your false equivalences to absurd lengths and making a fool of yourself....thanks for giving me my morning laugh though.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Sep 14 - 09:05 AM

Greg, the atrocities of IS are more than just a couple of beheadings.
How little you seem to know about these things.

What is this "FKWT" thing?
I read it as Formidable Keith, Wise Teacher.
Or is the F fantastic?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Sep 14 - 09:23 AM

stretching your false equivalences

No equivalence implied, Boo - one was a much greater atrocity than the other.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Sep 14 - 10:05 AM

I have always expressed outrage when civilians are targeted.
You have been silent on the killings in syria that dwarf anything seen elsewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Sep 14 - 12:53 PM

I have always expressed outrage when civilians are targeted

Amusing. You can't apparently remember what you've posted.


that dwarf anything seen elsewhere.

Really? When was the last time you went to an occulist?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Sep 14 - 02:46 PM

How many dead in syria in two years?
How many killed by IS in just a couple of months?
What compares Greg?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Sep 14 - 02:18 PM

Syria Death Toll 100 Times Higher Than Gaza

Outgoing UN rights chief Navi Pillay slams her organisation for 'paralysis' on Syria as death toll edges towards 200,000; Ban warns UN losing credibility.

Still churning out resolutions denouncing Israel.
Very like Mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Mrrzy
Date: 19 Sep 14 - 02:30 PM

I said a while back that I wouldn't call ISIS or ISL the islamic anything, they give islam a bad name etc, and now the French have decided not to call them islamic anything either, but something like daesh which means something akin to "those assholes" in arabic? Blicky

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Sep 14 - 04:34 PM

Syria Death Toll 100 Times Higher Than Gaza
Where are the resolutions denouncing IS or Assad?
Where are your posts denouncing IS or Assad?
There are no Jews in Syria.
No Jews, .........

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Sep 14 - 02:39 AM

We had a thread about the horrific slaughter in Syria.
It ran to nearly 2000 posts, not one from you.
That shows how much you care about Arab deaths when they can't be used to attack Israel.

Syrian Jews.
"There were large communities in Aleppo (the Halabi Jews) and Damascus (the Shami Jews) for centuries, and a smaller community in Qamishli on the Turkish border near Nusaybin. In the first half of the 20th century a large percentage of Syrian Jews emigrated to the U.S., Latin America and Israel. Most of the remaining Jews left in the 28 years following 1973, due in part to the efforts of Judy Feld Carr, who claims to have helped some 3,228 Jews emigrate; emigration was officially allowed in 1992.[3] The largest Syrian Jewish community is located in Brooklyn, New York and is estimated at 75,000 strong.[4] There are smaller communities elsewhere in the United States and in Latin America.
Today, there are about 50 Jews still living within Syria, mostly in Damascus"

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Thompson
Date: 20 Sep 14 - 06:08 AM

The Palestinians have a homeland.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 20 Sep 14 - 07:59 AM

Anyone see Mock the Week? "I have an Israeli lodger. He has occupied three fucking bedrooms already."

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 20 Sep 14 - 10:46 AM

Would that Israeli lodger be an Arab Israeli, a Christian Israeli or a Druze Israeli by any chance?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Sep 14 - 10:46 AM

I don't get it.
Perhaps you misheard and it was a Russian or an IS lodger.

Israel only occupied land in response to attempts to occupy Israel, and that was half a century ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Sep 14 - 12:31 PM

I took in an Israeli lodger.
All the other tenants tried to break in to his room, throw him out the window and take it over.
He had to occupy the corridor to stop them, and they call him greedy!

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Sep 14 - 04:46 AM

Right now the Caliphate is again expanding its borders and occupying even more land, driving out tens of thousands of Kurds who are fleeing in terror before it into Turkey.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Sep 14 - 07:15 AM

Guardian today.
" But in recent days, Isis extremists have seized a series of settlements close to the town of Kobani itself, sending more than 70,000 mostly Kurdish refugees streaming across the border into Turkey.

A Kurdish politician from Turkey who visited Kobani on Saturday said locals told him Isis fighters were beheading people as they went from village to village.

"Rather than a war this is a genocide operation … They are going into the villages and cutting the heads of one or two people and showing them to the villagers," Ibrahim Binici, a deputy for Turkey's pro-Kurdish HDP, told Reuters.

"It is truly a shameful situation for humanity," he said, calling for international intervention. Five of his fellow MPs planned a hunger strike outside UN offices in Geneva to press for action, he said.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Sep 14 - 02:50 AM

1: "Well, first the U.S. needs to realize that it lost the war in Iraq quite some time ago."

Did it really Greg? How? IIRC the reasons the USA launched the invasion in 2003 were as follows:

a) Enforce Iraqi compliance to the Safwan Ceasefire Agreement terms and conditions - In doing that they were 100% successful

b) Remove Saddam Hussein and the Sunni dominated Ba'athist regime from power - In doing that they were 100% successful

c) Replace the Ba'athist minority regime of Saddam Hussein by process of democratic elections based upon universal suffrage - In doing that they were 100% successful

d) Assist in the formation and training of Iraqi national police and security forces capable of defending their country - In this they were successful up to a point. The Iraqi Army and National Police that were in existence between March 2008 and December 2011 would not have run from ISIS. Post US withdrawal in December 2011 the elected Prime Minister of Iraq Nouri Al-Maliki basically screwed up right royally, he was not a unifying influence, he believed greatly in sectarianism and favouritism, in the Army he replaced extremely capable commanders with mainly Shia friends and those to whom he owed "political" favours. These were the Iraqi Commanders and Officers who ran from ISIS - they like Nouri Al-Maliki have now all been replaced.

Remember on this forum who stated that the USA was there {In Iraq} to:

- Steal their oil - didn't happen
- Stay and maintain a permanent military base - didn't happen They left 100% when they were asked to.
- Use Iraq as a base from which to attack Iran - didn't happen

2: "The situation there {Iraq}, pre-ISIS, was considerably worse that it was under Saddam, thanks to the U.S.

That would not be the opinion you would get from anyone who has voted in any of the country's elections since 2003. It would not be the opinion held by the majority Shia community, the Madaan, or the Kurds. It would not be the opinion of the Iraqi business community Per capita income before Saddam Hussein came to power was US$12,300 - During the tenure of Saddam Hussein that per capita income fell steadily through war and mismanagement to just US$507 - Since 2003 it has steadily increased and now stands at US$7,100.

3: "And its probably a forgone conclusion that Baghdad will fall."

Greg let's make a deal, if you are so convinced that "Baghdad will fall" - you stop posting until the day that Baghdad falls, then come and tell me that I was wrong.

4: "And the civil war in Syria WILL continue, whether the U.S. "does something" or not."

Of course it will Greg old son and you will continue to ignore it, and the excesses perpetrated against it's civil population (Many of them perpetrated by those you support in their struggle against Israel). I do not believe that the US has stated that it would do anything or take any side in the civil war now currently raging in Syria - it has said that it would consider hitting identified ISIS targets inside Syria.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 22 Sep 14 - 03:06 AM

He was waving a four thousand years old tenancy agreement.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Sep 14 - 04:23 AM

No he was not.
Ancient History has no bearing on it.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 22 Sep 14 - 07:39 AM

Try telling that to superstitious peo...

Oh.

Sorry, I forgot.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Sep 14 - 08:17 AM

Neither is superstition an issue.
The date on the lease is 1948 and there is no expiry date.
Clear-cut.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Sep 14 - 09:39 AM

Did it really [lose the war]Greg?

You bet T-Bird. And the U.S. won the war in Vietnam as well, according to you?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Sep 14 - 04:00 AM

Ah I see Baghdad must have fallen then Greg? Funny that as I seem to have missed that item on this mornings news. What is on the news this morning is that ISIS/ISIL/IS or whatever anybody wants to call them are now not only receiving the message load and clear throughout Iraq but are now getting hit in Syria as well. Seems these "Fighters" are very good at gunning down defenceless civilians in their pursuit of "genocide" within this Caliphate of theirs that is supposed to be open to all Muslims, but they aren't so hot when it comes to facing "combat" involving confrontation with armed opposition - par for the course for all terrorist organisations.

Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi can now join the same club as Ayman al-Zawahiri and Mullah Mohammed Omar. Just imagine it Greg spending the rest of their lives scuttling from one supposed "safe house" to the next never being able to look up at the sky fearful as each day dawns in case you are targeted by a "Drone" launched Hellfire Missile or by a Tomahawk Cruise Missile. Fearful as each night approaches in case you are visited by a HVT Team from US Special Forces.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Sep 14 - 09:45 AM

It ain't over 'til its over, T-Bird. Your screed misses the point.Keep watching.

In the meantime, why not explain for us how the U.S. "won" the war in Afghanistan.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 23 Sep 14 - 03:53 PM

About time they got hit hard. But I also worry that it ain't over 'til-----

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 02:07 AM

So over the last few days you have had a US President speak about US intervention as part of a "coalition" of the willing, about the "terrorist" threat to both the USA directly, the allies of the USA and to nations in the middle-east region. A threat that must be addressed and addressed urgently.

Excuse me but didn't his immediate predecessor state exactly the same thing just over a decade ago only to be ridiculed and slated for it? GWB was right then and so is Barack Obama now - high time everybody else woke up to smell the coffee.

What is happening now has got nothing whatsoever to do with what America has done in Afghanistan, in Iraq or in Libya - radical Islam and the Islamists have been at war with, and attacking, the "big, bad West" since 1971.

I am afraid to disappoint you Greg but there is still no sign of Baghdad falling - and the prospect of it doing so get more remote with the passing of each day.

Aims of US-OEF Mission in Afghanistan were more or less achieved in full 71 days after the decision was made to assist the Northern Alliance - The Aim? To drive the Taliban from power and then push them and their Al-Qaeda guests out of Afghanistan and back over the border into Pakistan from whence both organisations originally came.

Aims of the UNAMA & ISAF Missions in Afghanistan was to return the country to stable governance by extending the footprint of central government, assist in the UN/Afghan Government's nation-wide programme of reconstruction and assist in the creation, establishment,recruitment, training and equipping of Afghan National Security Forces capable of defending the country and enforcing the rule of law and order within its borders. The UNAMA mission is ongoing, while ISAF's mission was by and large completed by July last year when responsibility for national security and law enforcement throughout Afghanistan was handed over to the Afghan Government and the ANSF. The ANSF, non-existent in 2001, have been fighting the Taliban since 2006, their track record to date is that they have not been defeated once by Taliban forces against them.

Afghanistan today is light years down the road in terms of improvement to what it was under the Taliban in 2001.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 04:18 AM

Meanwhile, racism in Israel - http://countercurrentnews.com/2014/09/huge-race-riot-in-israel-as-african-immigrants-are-beaten-in-the-street/

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 04:35 AM

Richard, every country has a few racists, so why do you only and always attack Israel even on threads like this not even about Israel?
It smacks of racism.
Why do you never attack the institutional racism of Israel's neighbours including the subject of this thread, the Caliphate.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 04:43 AM

"Meanwhile, racism in Israel"

Basically Richard "racism in Israel" has got S.F.A, to do with, or have any bearing whatsoever, on the subject of this thread, so instead of bringing it up here, why not start your own thread:

Subject: RE: BS: Racism in Israel

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 09:05 AM

Afghanistan today is light years down the road in terms of improvement

Pull the other one, Colonel Blimp - it's got bells on.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 09:49 AM

Awwwww come on diddums at least quote the entire sentence:

"Afghanistan today is light years down the road in terms of improvement to what it was under the Taliban in 2001."

But on a brief selection of metrics and we could compare:

Education compare children in full time education now compared to during the "rule" of the Taliban.

Life Expectancy Now it is 60.7 years compared to 41 under Taliban "rule"

Healthcare compare access to healthcare now for all to what was an extremely restricted access under the Taliban

Agriculture vastly improved since 2001

Infrastructure vastly improved since 2001

Foreign Investment non-existent in 2001 now massive from China, India, Japan and Iran.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: robomatic
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 02:43 PM

I want to express my appreciation of Greg F.
The kneejerk responses, the failure to miss any cheap shots and to insist on 'equivalency' between contending parties, as well as the example of insisting on racist comments as a premeditated strike against a charge of racism has given flavor and life to this thread, and a few other threads. The rational responses Greg F. has elicited have been well worth reading.
Thus the provocateur has provoked some excellent arguments.
(Could it be that's the motivation?)

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 05:28 PM

No

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 07:31 PM

Love you guys, too.

Now, back to the reality of the situation......

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Mrrzy
Date: 25 Sep 14 - 06:54 PM

Ah, the reality of the situation.

For once the French have it right... Don't call them the Islamic anything or the anything State; call them Daesh, which is Arabic, and which they hate.

Then we can get back to talking about the issue instead of each other.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Lighter
Date: 25 Sep 14 - 09:10 PM

Arab lady blasts jihadists:

a href="http://news.yahoo.com/female-uae-pilot-leads-strikes-jihadists-130519981.html">http://news.yahoo.com/female-uae-pilot-leads-strikes-jihadists-130519981.html

Triumph for Arab women? Or one more innocent female brainwashed by violent macho culture? Or meaningless propaganda stunt? Or perhaps it never even happened....

Mudcat spinmeisters will decide....

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 05:12 AM

Good point Mrrzy. Snag is, some of the "us v them" bigots here judge people by appearance, religious heritage or their attitude to a particular rogue state they love fawning at the exclusion of all others.

If you wish to know who I mean, their spokesthickcunt will issue a communique shortly no doubt.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 05:33 AM

Plight of Yazidi women and girls taken by Caliphate.

"Meanwhile, experts say some 4,500 individuals - including about 3,000 women and children - remain in IS hands.

The young women and girls are being treated as spoils of war and trafficked around the region. Only a few have managed to escape.

Adla has just been reunited with her husband at a camp in the town of Zakho. She was taken with others from her village and held for 38 days.

"At first I was taken to a big house in Mosul. It was full of women," says Adla, trembling. "They locked all the windows and doors and surrounded it with guards."

"Every day or two, men would come and make us take off our headscarves so they could choose which of us they wanted. Women were dragged out of the house by their hair."

Adla was taken from her village by IS militants and held for 38 days until she eventually fled to safety
As Adla was moved from place to place, she saw her friends being violently beaten and raped. One was forced to leave with her little son at gunpoint."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-29333327

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 05:39 AM

"us v them" bigots here judge people by appearance, religious heritage or their attitude to a particular rogue state

Who are these people Musket, or have you made up imaginary straw people to knock down?

Can you give one example of anyone doing any of those things?
Of course not!

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 06:18 AM

In Algeria a French tourist is beheaded by a group claiming allegiance to the Caliphate.

Guardian, 24 sept.
"President François Hollande has confirmed that a French citizen kidnapped in Algeria was beheaded by militants linked to Islamic State (Isis), and said the murder would only serve to reinforce his determination to support efforts against the jihadists.

The group calling itself Jund al-Khilafah – or Soldiers of the Caliphate – released a video that appeared to depict the beheading of Hervé Gourdel, 55, a mountain guide from Nice who had only arrived in Algeria the previous day. The video was entitled Message in Blood for the French Government."
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/24/french-tourist-beheaded-algeria-isis-linked-jihadis

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 06:24 AM

So Musket, do you have any contribution to make on this issue, or are you only interested in smearing actual contributors?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 09:08 AM

See? I told you the communique wouldn't take long being issued..

It also includes newsfeeds at no extra cost...

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 09:10 AM

No contribution then.
Just lying smears against anyone who disagrees with Musket on anything.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 11:54 AM

😸😸😸

💩



💤💤💤💤💤💤💤💤

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 05:00 PM

Anyone who thinks "job even slightly done" in Afghanistan is ignoring both history and current reality. Karzai has been no more than the mayor of Kabul for over a decade. And just wait until we've all gone home.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Lighter
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 05:26 PM

Undercover footage:

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/trending-now/new-video-uncovers-life-in-is-controlled-syrian-city-of-raqqa-185906172.html

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 06:00 PM

Anyone who thinks "job even slightly done" in Afghanistan is ignoring both history and current reality

And the winner is...... TERIBUS the TERRIBLE!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 06:35 PM

ISIS?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 06:58 PM

"ISIS?"

So, you see absolutely no difference at at all between that event and ISIS, right?

And before you say "I didn't say that" that is what you are implying.....it's just another one of your lame attempts at creating a false equivalency and it's getting old and rather sad but whatever floats your boat I guess.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 08:03 PM

G'night, Boo- keep up the flood of BS.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 08:45 PM

Ha, ha Greg....gotcha!

G'night to ya too and a mighty fine night it is in our neck of the woods ain't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Mrrzy
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 11:36 PM

Musket, which of my many good points did you mean (*BG*)?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Sep 14 - 01:33 AM

Of course that was a false equivalency, most dubiously motivated, of Greg F's. The Oklahoma incident related was a recognisedly illegal beheading by a criminal individual, in no way comparable to these quasi-judicial ones perpetrated by a disputedly but self-claimingly competent organisation, of the sort with which we are concerned. A blatantly irrelevant attempt at deflection from the topic.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 27 Sep 14 - 03:53 AM

Greg and Steve, and I don't know who else:
"Anyone who thinks "job even slightly done" in Afghanistan is ignoring both history and current reality".

Yeah, We learned from Iran/Contra....this time we're guarding the opium poppy fields ourselves....and need a larger force to guard the guards!"

Same shit...different flies!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 27 Sep 14 - 12:50 PM

Mrrzy. The bit about not confusing the ISIS crowd with Islam per se.

You see, there are some on here who judge all Middle East concerns on which imaginary friend you have and tar all Muslims as bad whilst saying Christians would never this and that and criticising Israel is anti semitic.

One of them even says that UK bodies representing groups of mosques don't exist, whilst at the same time they are on the telly deploring ISIS.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Sep 14 - 01:05 PM

Sorry M & Boo-

but a lopped off head- ...................................................................................................................................................is a lopped off head, no matter who does the lopping.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 27 Sep 14 - 01:22 PM

Greg F: "but a lopped off head- .........................is a lopped off head, no matter who does the lopping."

But in the case of this guy....but this one was just a cop shooting a black man for no reason.... according to the libs on another thread!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Sep 14 - 02:57 PM

You see, there are some on here who judge all Middle East concerns on which imaginary friend you have and tar all Muslims as bad whilst saying Christians would never this and that and criticising Israel is anti semitic.

Made up slur.
There is no-one here who does any of that.

One of them even says that UK bodies representing groups of mosques don't exist, whilst at the same time they are on the telly deploring ISIS.

If you mean me, you are wrong.
Most large towns have councils of mosques.
There is a Muslim Council of Britain.
There is just no British Council of Mosques which you claimed to quote.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 Sep 14 - 02:06 AM

Oh come on, Greg. Think of the saying that "Circumstances alter cases". Obviously "a lopped off head is a lopped off head". But do you really think them all equally to be considered, or deplored, whether they belong to Charles I or Mary Queen Of Scots or Sir Walter Ralegh or Danton or Robespierre or M Verdoux or a Boxer rebel or an ISIS hostage or a recent middle-aged female murder victim in Oklahoma?

Away you...

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Sep 14 - 10:06 AM

But do you really think them all equally to be considered, or deplored

They're pretty much the same to the victim. And yup - dead is dead & murder is murder.

The politics is something else entirely, but it doesn'tmodify the result.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 28 Sep 14 - 07:25 PM

""Richard, every country has a few racists, so why do you only and always attack Israel even on threads like this not even about Israel?
It smacks of racism.
Why do you never attack the institutional racism of Israel's neighbours including the subject of this thread, the Caliphate.""

so, K A of H, why do you only and always attack Israel's neighbours, including the subject of this thread, the Caliphate.

It smacks of racism.

Why do you never admit the institutional racism of Israel, even on threads about Israel?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Sep 14 - 08:15 PM

Because he's probably Bibi's uncle. Can't think of any other rational explanation for Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Sep 14 - 04:10 AM

Do you not think that the Caliphate deserves criticism?
Or Assad's regime?
I criticise evil where I see it.
You people ignore all that evil all around Israel, and only and always single Israel out.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Sep 14 - 06:09 AM

I think even the mods have given up on Ian....perhaps it's better to leave his nonsense in place to let future readers see just what he is made of.

Back to the point, only a fool would fail to realise the danger posed by the lunatics who run the Caliphate, but it is obvious that we contributed to their rise by support of regimes like Saudi Arabia.
We are still working with them.
There is no centre ground in the Middle East, affectations of democratic government are a sham....a cover for the decapitators to do their worst. Assad warned of the danger while we armed his opponents, "useful idiots" for IS.

Democracy itself is a sham......power politics rules...pressure groups or bribery....

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Sep 14 - 01:41 AM

Perhaps Akenaton you should have been a bit more specific:

"There is no centre ground in the Middle East, affectations of democratic government are a sham"

While that may well apply to the Arab states in the region it most certainly does not apply to the state of Israel, which is a democracy albeit one that has existed as a democracy under constant threat of attack and annihilation since the date of its inception.

You also ignore balance which is vital for the peace and stability of the region, a region which up until the last few years was vital to the developed economies of this planet - it still is to some in varying degrees.

If indeed democracy is a sham, I have yet to see a better alternative to live under - the same applies to capitalism. Both have outlasted and survived where all the other "isms" have failed miserably.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 30 Sep 14 - 03:07 AM

Contribution from a prime example of intolerance and ignorance, just what this thread needs.

I'm going to get a shower.

If anyone wants to read the final few posts on the Scotland/England thread, they are hilarious.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Sep 14 - 04:01 AM

Can't disagree with the points you make Teribus, but how many other "isms" have actually been put into practice?

Looking to the future there must be better ways of governance than "democracy" which is obviously manipulated by powerful pressure groups, and even more so by the "social media".....not to mention the interests of capital or personal greed.

Take "Socialism", a great theory, but to be put into practice it requires the demolition of the whole apparatus of Capitalism....a mammoth task to provide a level playing field...and a realisation that many people perhaps the majority are going to be worse off financially, with a lower MATERIAL standard of living.

Just like the Scottish referendum, most people don't want to make that leap of faith, so we continue to sink into the mire of greed ignorance and waste.

If the underclass are to be inspired into contributing to society, then the obscenity at the other end of the spectrum must be addressed

If we do not plan for the future, we will have NO future.


Ian takes a lot of showers, doesn't he......must be a right stinker?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 Sep 14 - 04:35 AM

And does anyone else share my distinct impression that, despite his exemplary personal cleanliness, and his ever·so·right·on stances, Musket's posts [that last one being an admirable examplar] are ever so long on assertiveness, but somewhat short in intellectual content or argument. Anyone can say authoritatively "This is so, because it's so, because I say it's so... ad ∞∞∞ in ♠♠♠". But how about some actual convincing arguments to maintain these assertions; eh, Ian?

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Sep 14 - 05:11 AM

"we continue to sink into the mire of greed ignorance and waste."

All personal life choices Akenaton

1300 up

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Sep 14 - 05:33 AM

long on assertiveness, but somewhat short in intellectual content or argument.

Amusingly, he accuses others, mostly me, of not debating properly.
He thinks it unfair to produce evidence to support your case.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Sep 14 - 06:33 AM

This e mail is being circulated to churches and reached mine.
I can not verify it but see no reason to think it fake.

From: [e-mail]
To: Undisclosed-Recipient:;
Sent: 20/09/2014 18:52:42 GMT Daylight Time
Subj: Urgent Prayer Needed




Dear All,
I have received these two emails from our missionary friends, one yesterday and one this morning. I just wanted to pass it on so that as many people as possible can pray specifically for our brothers and sisters. Much love and blessings

This is so sad...
A friend just got a text message from her brother asking her to shower him and his parish in prayer. He is part of a mission and ISIS has taken over the town they are in today. He said ISIS is systematically going house to house to all the Christians and asking the children to denounce Jesus. He said so far not one child has. And so far all have consequently been killed. But not the parents. The UN has withdrawn and the missionaries are on their own. They are determined to stick it out for the sake of the families - even if it means their own deaths. He is very afraid, has no idea how to even begin ministering to these families who have seen their children martyred. Yet he says he knows God has called him for some reason to be his voice and hands at this place at this time. Even so, he is begging prayers for his courage to live out his vocation in such dire circumstances. And like the children    accept martyrdom if he is called to do so. She asked me to ask everyone we know to please pray for them. These brave parents instilled such a fervent faith in their children that they chose martyrdom. Please surround them in their loss with your prayers for hope and perseverance.

She was able to talk to her brother briefly by phone. She didn't say it but I believe she believes it will be their last conversation. Pray for her too. She said he just kept asking her to help him know what to do and do it. She told him to tell the families we ARE praying for them and they are not alone or forgotten -- no matter what. Her e mail broke my heart. Please keep all in your prayers. Thanks

This came this morning... Just a few minutes ago I received the following text message on my phone from Sean Malone who leads Crisis Relief International (CRI). We then spoke briefly on the phone and I assured him that we would share this urgent prayer need with all of our contacts.

"We lost the city of Queragosh (Qaraqosh). It fell to ISIS and they are beheading children systematically. This is the city we have been smuggling food too. ISIS has pushed back Peshmerga (Kurdish forces) and is within 10 minutes of where our CRI team is working. Thousands more fled into the city of Erbil last night. The UN evacuated it's staff in Erbil. Our team is unmoved and will stay. Prayer cover needed!"

Please pray sincerely for the deliverance of the people of Northern Iraq from the terrible advancement of ISIS and its extreme Islamic goals for mass conversion or death for Christians across this region. May I plead with you not to ignore this email.

Do not forward it before you have prayed through it. Then send it to as many people as possible. Send it to friends and Christians you may know. Send it to your prayer group. Send it to your pastor and phone him/her to pray on Sunday during the service - making a special time of prayer for this. We need to stand in the gap for our fellow Christians.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 Sep 14 - 08:43 AM

Ian: No -- I shower every day and quite a lot of my years have passed.
Grasp some of your points now & again; but find your enigmatic gnomic utterances ofttimes make little communication.
When that happens, I usually download a cryptic crossword, one of my main pastimes nowadays. Beats Mudcat most of the time.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Sep 14 - 08:49 AM

So now the 'Cat is a forum for passing on chain letters?

Jesus wept.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Sep 14 - 08:54 AM

If the christians could also show concern for the vast majority of people caught up, that'd be a start.
They do.
For example,

Christian Aid in Iraq

Our work

We work across the Middle East, with programme work spanning Egypt, Israel and the occupied Palestinian territory (oPt), Iraq and Lebanon, and we are responding to the Syrian humanitarian crisis.

We began working in the Middle East in the 1950s, supporting the Middle East Council of Churches' assistance to Palestinian refugees.

Discrimination

Our Iraq programme was set up in the early 1990s, initially in response to the impact of the attacks against the Kurdish population in the north and the crisis emerging after the Gulf War. In 2013, our Syria emergency response programme was expanded to include work inside Syria through an ACT sister agency.

Discrimination and exclusion take many forms in the Middle East. Gender discrimination is widespread, and national and ethnic discrimination are prevalent, with Palestinians and Kurds both denied statehood and the right to self-determination. Refugees and migrants are particularly vulnerable, given their exclusion from protection and many official social provisions.

http://www.christianaid.org.uk/whatwedo/middle-east/iraq.aspx?Page=2

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 30 Sep 14 - 09:26 AM

"We"??

Gosh. Can I have your autograph?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Sep 14 - 09:52 AM

Who said we?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Sep 14 - 09:56 AM

Oh I see.
That was a piece from Christian Aid website.
A quote, silly.
You have made that mistake before!

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Sep 14 - 07:26 PM

I also got that email, Keith, at least two weeks ago. What is so horrible about it is that it concentrates on "Christians" in the middle east. All those Iraqi children who died thanks to sanctions in the 90s and those hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians in the 2000s, not to speak of the horrors gone through by the imprisoned people of Gaza - not a mention. Where were these supplicants then, I ask myself. As for this bit: Send it to friends and Christians you may know. Send it to your prayer group. Send it to your pastor and phone him/her to pray on Sunday during the service - making a special time of prayer for this. We need to stand in the gap for our fellow Christians. - it's disgusting and just a wee bit racist. And thoroughly unchristian.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 30 Sep 14 - 07:33 PM

Looks like not all the bible-banger missionaries were boiled in the pot, unfortunately.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Sep 14 - 07:46 PM

While that may well apply to the Arab states in the region it most certainly does not apply to the state of Israel, which is a democracy albeit one that has existed as a democracy under constant threat of attack and annihilation since the date of its inception.

Perhaps Israel would be a somewhat finer "democracy" if it refrained from serial invasions of its neighbours' sovereign territories, from referring to itself as the Jewish state when a very large minority of its citizens are not Jewish, from imprisoning hundreds of Palestinians, including many women and children, without charge, from dividing the land of Palestinian families going back hundreds of years with an apartheid wall, from setting up remote-control sniper fire aimed across the Gaza border with children in its sights, from stealing all the best Palestinian land (shades of Smith's Rhodesia and apartheid South Africa there) for illegal settlements, from detaining Palestinians (but never Israeli Jews) at checkpoints without cause for up to three days...and let's not even get started on what they do in Gaza every couple of years, not to speak of the blockade. You make an implied excuse for Israel's imperfect democracy. So let's hear you making excuses, point by point if you don't mind, for the lapses referred to in my little litany. And perhaps you might reflect on which of the points in my litany the UK could get away with and still call itself a democracy. Not a one, I'd suggest. But perhaps you have a few excuses up your sleeve as to why we should hold Israel to a far lower standard.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Oct 14 - 03:58 AM

1: "Perhaps Israel would be a somewhat finer "democracy" if it refrained from serial invasions of its neighbours' sovereign territories"

What serial invasions? Do you mean the ones mounted in defence of their own territory? Please let me know if I am in error in recalling the following

(A) "On 15 May 1947, the General Assembly of the newly formed United Nations resolved that a committee, United Nations Special Committee on Palestine (UNSCOP), be created "to prepare for consideration at the next regular session of the Assembly a report on the question of Palestine". In the Report of the Committee dated 3 September 1947 to the UN General Assembly, the majority of the Committee in Chapter VI proposed a plan to replace the British Mandate with "an independent Arab State, an independent Jewish State, and the City of Jerusalem ... the last to be under an International Trusteeship System". On 29 November 1947, the General Assembly adopted a resolution recommending the adoption and implementation of the Plan of Partition with Economic Union as Resolution 181 (II). The Plan attached to the resolution was essentially that proposed by the majority of the Committee in the Report of 3 September 1947.

The Jewish Agency, which was the recognized representative of the Jewish community, ACCEPTED THE PLAN, but the Arab League and Arab Higher Committee of Palestine REJECTED IT. On 1 December 1947, the Arab Higher Committee proclaimed a three-day strike, and Arab bands began attacking Jewish targets."

(B) "On 14 May 1948, the day before the expiration of the British Mandate, David Ben-Gurion, the head of the Jewish Agency, declared "the establishment of a Jewish state in Eretz-Israel, to be known as the State of Israel. The following day, the armies of four Arab countries—Egypt, Syria, Transjordan and Iraq—entered what had been British Mandatory Palestine, launching the 1948 Arab–Israeli War"

(C) "After a year of fighting, a ceasefire was declared and temporary borders, known as the Green Line, were established. Jordan annexed what became known as the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, and Egypt took control of the Gaza Strip."

Now please note Mr. Shaw in all of that there is not one single mention of Tosser Arafat's "invention" and "creation" - i.e. "Palestinians"

Now please show me a map whether it be from Hamas, Fatah, Hezbollah or from the Palestine Authority that clearly shows the borders of this so-called sovereign territory of "theirs" and where the borders of the sovereign state of Israel are. Don't sweat too much on that Steve because no such map exists, so much for Arabs wanting a "Two State" Solution (They don't) IF they win then Israel is wiped from the map and the Jewish population will be annihilated.


2: "from referring to itself as the Jewish state when a very large minority of its citizens are not Jewish"

I do not think that they do refer to themselves as the Jewish State - That was terminology transferred from the Peel Commission Report of 1937 and from the 1947 UN Plan.

3: As for:
a: "imprisoning hundreds of Palestinians, including many women and children, without charge"
b: "dividing the land of Palestinian families going back hundreds of years with an apartheid wall"
c: "setting up remote-control sniper fire aimed across the Gaza border with children in its sights" Never heard of that one, but ask anyone who lived in Berlin - they lived with something similar to that for decades.
d: "stealing all the best Palestinian land (shades of Smith's Rhodesia and apartheid South Africa there) for illegal settlements" Basically Bullshit.
e: "detaining Palestinians (but never Israeli Jews) at checkpoints without cause for up to three days" - Probably because Israeli Jews are not attempting to kidnap and kill Israeli citizens?
f: "what they do in Gaza every couple of years, not to speak of the blockade." - Oh by all means let's, Israel unilaterally withdrew entirely from Gaza on the understanding that no further attacks would be mounted on Israel or it's population from Gaza. The attacks continued, to date tens of thousands of missiles, rockets and mortars have been fired indiscriminately into Israeli centres of population - Eh Steve Israel does have the right to defend itself from attack, and not to labour the glaringly obvious - If someone is firing missiles, rockets and mortars at you by the tens of thousands - You old son are under attack - and your best course of action is to do something about it

Now during the First and Second World Wars did the western democracies of France and Great Britain detain people without charge as a security measure? Was land requisitioned and were people forced to vacate their properties (Large chunks of Dorset are still retained in MOD hands), not to mention the disgraceful treatment that the Chagos Islanders have received at the hands of the British Government.

IF the "Palestinians" want all of the above to become things of the past then let the "Palestinians" just for once try peace as opposed to war - They are not going to defeat the Israelis they are not going to drive the Israelis into the sea, they are not going to wipe the stain of Israel from Arab soil - High time after 66 years they woke up to those facts - The Arabs chose to go to war, they lost (repeatedly), you seem to have no problems with Arabs invading, occupying and annexing land in time of war so I am sorry to tell you Mr. Shaw that that particular saw cuts both ways and until the Arabs are prepared to sit down and discuss borders then there is no such thing as an "illegal" settlement because there are no agreed borders.

If you want to compare "lower standards" Mr Shaw would you care to take a look at Israels neighbours in the region?

Egypt: Military Dictatorship since Nasser's coup in 1952. It was the driving force behind most anti-Israeli activity between 1952 and 1979 when Egypt made peace with Israel and that peace has held ever since.

Jordan: Weird sort of "constitutional Monarchy" with a two house system of representatives. The King holds extensive executive and legislative powers and while the lower house of representatives is democratically elected the upper chamber is totally selected by the King. Of all of Israel's neighbours Jordan is least objectionable. They made peace with Israel in 1994 and that peace has held.

Syria: Well now Steve what can I say - an absolute hell hole. Bashar al-Assad's father killed his own people in the tens of thousands - Bashar has killed them in the hundreds of thousands. {Some figures for you Steve in 66 years some 115,078 people have been killed in Arab-Israeli conflicts 21% have been Israeli soldiers and civilians [That works out at roughly five per day] - compared to 260,215 in three and a half years in Syria [And that works out at roughly 204 per day] }

Lebanon: Like "Palestine" Lebanon was set up to be a multicultural, multi-ethnic and multi-religious haven in the region. But the arrival of "Palestinians" in 1948 and in 1970 screwed things up a bit. Perhaps the Lebanese should have let those refugees integrate instead of imprisoning them in camps. Independent in 1943, Arab-Israeli War in 1948, armed insurrection in 1958, civil war in 1975 {Lasted 15 years with ~150,000-odd killed in that one Steve}, Syrian occupation from 1976 until 2005, Reprisal raids by Israel resulting from PLO & Hezbollah attacks on Israel in 1982 and in 2006. Since then conflicts both internal and external have torn the country apart and it now exists as a bomb just waiting to explode - absolute paradise compared to Israel eh Steve?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 01 Oct 14 - 04:13 AM

I'm sure that when my farm was dry and crops failing because Israel took all the water first, that I too would read that waffle and say "fair enough."

Mind you, my neighbour thinks there is another way to stop a foreign country starving us of natural resources.

I wonder if anybody else has any chain letters they wish to share? You can get all self righteous and indignant as intelligent people dismiss them out of hand. Christian Aid were working in a village in Kenya a few years ago when I went out to advise a different NGO on aspects of infrastructure. An offshoot of Red Crescent were there too. Whilst Christian Aid and the Red Crescent lot were arguing where to put the new church and new mosque, ITDG were more interested in irrigation, building strong homes and getting s school going before either set of God botherers decided to build one.

Possibly what tipped me from indifference to viewing superstition as a stain on society.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Oct 14 - 05:00 AM

What is so horrible about it is that it concentrates on "Christians" in the middle east.

No Steve.
It is from people in the middle of it describing their own experience to friends and asking to be prayed for.
What is horrible about that?
Did you not actually read it at all?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 01 Oct 14 - 07:54 AM

Israel is a Jewish state, and this is primarily in a national sense -- similar to the way that Arab states are Arab, Chinese states are Chinese, etc. Many atheists have a Jewish identity and/or support the existence of a Jewish state.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Oct 14 - 08:16 AM

I'd dearly love to know what water Israel took first Musket.

The aquifers that exist inside the old mandate of Palestine show that only the Coastal Aquifer lies inside Israel while the Northern, Western, Eastern and Mountain Aquifers all lie inside the West Bank.

Israel gets the bulk of its water from the Sea of Galilee and that is pumped via the Israeli National Water Carrier Pipeline throughout the country.

The solution to the regions water problems lie in financing the construction of infrastructure such as water treatment facilities and desalination plants. Water problems in the region as a whole result from poor management and the natural consequences of large numbers of people living in a semi-arid area - it is not because, or the result of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

Only thing is to provide water to the Palestinians involves giving them money with which to solve the problem. Give money to the Palestinians either in Gaza or in Ramallah and you can guarantee that not one brass razoo will be spent on improving the water supply - it will go into a Swiss Bank Account belonging to one of the "leaders" of the poor Palestinians.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Oct 14 - 06:30 PM

Nice load of bluster, Teribus, but it was all designed, as even the average thickie here (like me) could discern, to dishonestly divert from my question to you. What excuses do you have for Israel's bad behaviour, the sort of stuff that would never be tolerated here: pointless road blocks, land theft, serial incursions ("defence" my arse!) into neighbouring sovereign territory, the apartheid wall, the slaughter of innocent women and children, hundreds of thousands of cluster bomblets left all over southern Lebanon to blow off the legs of kiddies (nice one!), the white phosphorus, the blockade, remote sniper fire killing children...? Which one of those would the UK get away with and still be able to call itself a democracy? Why can't you answer, please? Because you're a mug who buys fully into the self-assumed mantle of victimhood espoused by successive Israeli regimes? And don't give me that withdrawal-from-Gaza-with-conditions revisionist guff. You know damn well that that is not why Sharon, God rot him, decamped from Gaza.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Oct 14 - 04:52 AM

Bluster Mr Shaw? I have provided hard facts that happen to be a matter of record. I notice that you do not dispute a single one - you were after all requested by me to do so where applicable.

If actions taken by an internationally recognised sovereign government in self-defence and actions taken in order to ensure the safety of its civilian population can be termed as "bad behaviour" then so many are guilty that the term becomes meaningless as they represent the norm.

In Israel's case the country has been under threat of attack or under actual attack since it's independence was declared on the 14th May 1948. Threaten any nation or any people with annihilation and generally that will be laughed off as a joke. Not so with the Jews and Israel primarily as down through history precisely that has been tried wherever they have settled ever since they were driven from their homeland. No joke to them, they take it deadly seriously - if you threaten Israel or attack Israel then you do so in the full realisation that retribution will follow as certainly as night follows day.

"the sort of stuff that would never be tolerated here" If here is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland then I have given you instances and detailed the circumstances under which such stuff has not only tolerated here but actively encouraged and supported by the vast majority of the population of the Kingdom.

As for a mug that has swallowed a line of complete and utter bullshit please contradict my assessment of the desire for a Two State Solution on the part of those representing the "Palestinians" - show me the borders of these two states as perceived by the "Palestinians".

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Oct 14 - 05:42 AM

serial incursions ("defence" my arse!) into neighbouring sovereign territory,

Right Steve.
Give us an example of a non-defensive one since 1948.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Oct 14 - 05:45 AM

Would you like some examples of non-defensive incursions into the sovereign state of Israel since 1948?
There are plenty of those.
Why do you never criticise them Steve?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Oct 14 - 11:28 AM

I wonder why you people think it more important to attack Israel than discuss the subject of the thread!
This is what UN said about IS today.

"GENEVA — The conflict in Iraq has killed and wounded at least 26,000 civilians this year, with the toll accelerating in recent weeks as Islamic State fighters sought to expand their control of parts of northern Iraq, the United Nations reported Thursday.

The casualty count includes 9,343 people killed from January to the end of September, the United Nations said in a joint report by its mission in Iraq and its human rights office in Geneva, which emphasized that the figures were "absolute minimums."

More than 5,500 deaths have occurred since the offensive by the Islamic State, also known as ISIS and ISIL, begun in June. Among the casualties were over 2,000 people slaughtered in mass executions and others killed in attacks that the United Nations said systematically targeted civilians and civilian infrastructure. The extremists' offensive has involved ethnic cleansing, abductions, rape, and other physical and sexual violence against women and children, the United Nations' human rights monitors said.


"The array of violations and abuses perpetrated by ISIL and associated armed groups is staggering, and many of their acts may amount to war crimes or crimes against humanity," Zeid Ra'ad Zeid al-Hussein, the human rights chief, said in a statement

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 02 Oct 14 - 02:27 PM

"I wonder why you people think it more important to attack Israel than discuss the subject of the thread!"

I don't.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Oct 14 - 08:11 PM

In Israel's case the country has been under threat of attack or under actual attack since it's independence was declared on the 14th May 1948.

Delusory. Israel has never been invaded since its inception. Yet Israel has invaded and/or annexed neighbouring territories on many occasions. Sinai. Negev villages. Gaza. All the best West Bank land. Lebanon. Golan Heights. Most of these incursions have had brutal consequences for thousands of innocent civilians. Let me rephrase your idiotic assertion: in Israel's neighbours' cases, they have been under attack, threat of attack, invasion, annexation or occupation since 1948. Always with consequences for innocent civilians that have far outweighed any injury to Israeli civilians (the deliberate policy of successive Israeli regimes).

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Mrrzy
Date: 02 Oct 14 - 11:43 PM

Oy vey. It may not have been successfully invaded but it has certainly been threatened. No excuse for their behavior, but one can't say they aren't under threat.

Egypt's gonna get one too, just to use on you-know-who
So Israel's getting tense
Wants one in self-defense
The lord's our sheperd says the psalm
But just in case, we better get the bomb
Who's next...

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Oct 14 - 02:50 AM

OK then Mr.Shaw let us talk about Delusory shall we:

1: "Israel has never been invaded since its inception."

Israel declared itself independent on the 14th May 1948 (Its inception)
Arab Armies from Egypt; Jordan; Syria and Iraq invade Israel on the 15th May 1948
Result Arab armies defeated. Egypt and Jordan however occupy and annex parts of the former mandated territory of Palestine where they proceed to shut their fellow Arabs up in refugee camps - inconvenient truth that Mr.Shaw and like minded "useful fools" somehow completely manage to ignore {Pssst Mr.Shaw Jordan's intention during this first invasion was to take over the whole of the mandated territory of Palestine and drive the Jews into the sea - do some research and read up on the subject}

Between 1949 and 1956 Egypt, Jordan, Syria and the Lebanon were used as bases from which the Fedayeen backed to the hilt by the governments of those countries raided and carried out attacks against Israel - Again Mr. Shaw simple matter of record if you would care to do the research.

In 1956 Egypt nationalised the Suez Canal closed both the canal and the Straits Tiran to Israeli shipping and vessels sailing to Israeli ports. This Mr.Shaw constitutes an act of war and Israel quite rightly responded to the threat. Egypt loses once again and in return for Gaza {Which it never had any right to in the first place} and the Sinai - Egypt agrees to freedom of navigation and demilitarisation of the Sinai Peninsula - This lasts of course only until 1967 when the Arabs once again break their promises and throw peace out the window again and threaten Israel with annihilation.

Six Day War Israel once again finds itself blockaded and threatened by the presence of five armies camped on it's borders. Israel mounts a pre-emptive attack and destroys the Air forces of Egypt, Jordan and Syria. This time when they take territory that was originally part of the former mandated territory of Palestine they hold onto it. They also hold onto territory belonging to their enemies just as the Egyptians and Jordanians did in 1948. The Israelis will now trade land for peace. The Arab leaders meet in Khartoum at the end of August 1967 and jointly issue their decree "That there should be no recognition, no peace, and no negotiations with the State of Israel" - Tell me Steve can you give any examples of such unequivocal language being used by Israel?

The Yom Kippur of 1973 was started with a two pronged attack on Israel by Egyptian and Syrian Forces. After initial Arab successes the Israelis go over onto the offensive sweep the Syrians from the Golan Heights and threaten Damascus and clear the Egyptians from the Sinai and drive over onto the west bank of the Suez Canal encircling the Egyptian Third Army around Suez. The Syrians and Egyptians agree to a ceasefire

In 1979 Egypt signs a peace treaty with Israel (Guess what Steve? Egypt has not attacked Israel since and Israel has not attacked Egypt).

In 1994 Jordan signs a peace treaty with Israel and guess what Steve? Jordan has not attacked Israel and Israel has not attacked Jordan - See any sort of trend here?

2: "Yet Israel has invaded and/or annexed neighbouring territories on many occasions. Sinai. Negev villages. Gaza. All the best West Bank land. Lebanon. Golan Heights. Most of these incursions have had brutal consequences for thousands of innocent civilians."

After the 1973 Yom Kippur War Syria still holds out but Syria on its own will not attack Israel the Syrian Army is good at killing unarmed civilians but against trained armed forces they do not fare so well, they know that and the Israelis know that. So Syria contents itself doing Iran's bidding acting as host to Hamas and as a supply conduit to Hezbollah both armed and financed by Iran. Iraq used to be in this equation but they were removed from the scene in 2003.

Since that reality has become accepted Israel has been subjected to missile and rocket attacks from both Southern Lebanon and from Gaza and from bombing attacks mounted from inside the West Bank. Incursions into South Lebanon and into Gaza and the building of the wall have reduced the effects of those attacks but had there been no attacks no incursions would have been carried out and no wall would have been built.

Yes Steve it is great that you realise that when leaders opt for war then there are consequences - brutal consequences if you lose. I would have thought that those Arab leaders, after 66 years of losing, might at least try some other approach, but they appear to be on a very slow learning curve with predictably brutal consequences and results.

3: "Always with consequences for innocent civilians that have far outweighed any injury to Israeli civilians (the deliberate policy of successive Israeli regimes)."

Ehmmmmm Steve, it is the duty and responsibility of any sovereign government to defend its territory and defend and guarantee the safety and security of it's citizens. This is not an exercise in equivalence, there is no rule that states if I kill 100 of yours you are only allowed to kill 100 of mine - the rule is that if you chose war then the other side is fully entitled to defend itself as best as it sees fit to stop and prevent you from ever attacking again. If I were a leader and every time I provoked an attack "my side" lost 2,000 and my "enemies side" only lost 79, "my side" suffered extensive destruction of vital infrastructure while my enemy was unscathed, then I would change my game plan wouldn't you? Until of course you view the tragedy as a casual observer and you realise that the leaders representing the "Palestinians" and the backers of the likes of Hamas, Fatah, Islamic Jihad and Hezbollah don't really give a flying F**K for the "Palestinians" - They never have, they never will.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 03 Oct 14 - 04:04 AM

Tell me, does UN have credibility now because of the united stand on ISIS or do they have credibility when they have a pop at Israel?

Talk about hypocritical posts...

In the meantime, ISIS have won a battle. See the Conservative party conference for details. Wanting to curb more human rights over here, playing to the tune of terrorists.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Oct 14 - 04:41 AM

General Assembly Musket?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Lighter
Date: 03 Oct 14 - 06:55 AM

Well said, T.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 Oct 14 - 12:58 PM

BRAVO!! Teribus!!..Well said, and concisely to the point!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 03 Oct 14 - 01:44 PM

Rarely attended them. Although I once got the cane at one in front of the whole house.

nice to see you have respect for UN after all, even if it is only when responsible decisions and views happen by chanve to suit your weird outlook on life.

🌽

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 Oct 14 - 02:13 PM

Musket: "nice to see you have respect for UN after all,..."

Let's not get TOO far ahead of yourself !!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Oct 14 - 03:44 PM

Well said, and concisely to the point!

Bloody Nora, Guffers, "concisely"? he's one of the most wordy and repetitive (and bigoted) people here! That what happens to one when one is probably Bibi's uncle (Keith's Bibi's other uncle. Possibly his great-great uncle. You're not one of Bibi's uncles because you don't understand anything about anything). Grab yerself a dictionary and investigate "concise", Mr Mad!

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Oct 14 - 06:34 PM

Capital bloody aitch.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Oct 14 - 06:41 PM

Oy vey. It may not have been successfully invaded but it has certainly been threatened. No excuse for their behavior, but one can't say they aren't under threat.

They are under threat because they are the most bellicose nation on the planet. They are not under threat because they are, as they wish to be defined, a nation of Jews. Let's not get suckered into buying into that victimhood thang. If you continually threaten, or more than threaten, your neighbours, you will feel threatened. One fine day the Jewish people of Israel will finally see that their successive regimes constantly put them, by their aggression towards neighbours, in harm's way.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 Oct 14 - 10:09 PM

It's amazing, what people will post in lieu of an intelligent post, responding to an intelligent post.

OK, we got it, Steve, you don't like Israel, you don't like Jews, and you don't like intelligent posts. You prefer ISIS and anyone who wants to wiped Israel off the map..which also means you must like Sharia law, over Israel's democracy...

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Oct 14 - 01:40 AM

Quite!

If you continually threaten, or more than threaten, your neighbours,.....

Israel does not.
It was invaded by five armies on the first day of its existence, and has only ever responded to attacks from outside.

What specific facts in Teribus' post do you not believe Steve?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Oct 14 - 02:05 AM

Steve -- what 'threats' do you perceive to have been uttered or implied; apart from "If you start on us, we will respond to whatever extent may be necessary to make you stop"? What "aggression towards neighbours" is occuring there?

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 04 Oct 14 - 02:52 AM

Yeah yeah. If you find Israeli aggression repugnant you therefore support ISIS.

I don't find the post strange, after all it came from Goofus. It is those who try to convince us of their intelligence agreeing with it that I find odd.

The world other than US politicians bankrolled by Israeli interests find their attitude to neighbours to be the main cause of the backlash. It doesn't mean you have to be part of that defence of the indefensible. You can be objective if you really really try.

Unless we have found one of the lobby idiots who wander around Washington saying anything other than unconditional support for Israeli aggression is anti Semitic?

😱

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 04 Oct 14 - 07:58 AM

"The world other than US politicians bankrolled by Israeli interests...."

Ah yes, the old shibboleth that Jews control the US through it's politicians and by extension run the world through their control of the banks, newspapers etc. Let me remind you again that The Protocols of the Elders of Zion is a proven hoax.......put it down.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Oct 14 - 09:48 AM

If you find Israeli aggression repugnant you therefore support ISIS.

Well, it IS strange that you always and only attack Israel, even on a thread dedicated to discussion of the most evil entity on Earth by a long way, and about which you have almost nothing to say.

Sorry, but it does suggest an irrational dislike of that country or its people.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 Oct 14 - 12:04 PM

...or in other words, what do those who oppose the existence of Israel, on here, propose?
any suggestions?..or are you just blowing hard??

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 04 Oct 14 - 06:28 PM

Taking a break from the hate agenda:

I was just watching the BBC 2 Genesis, commenting on Phil Collins' thinking about Steve Beco, when it struck me that in many ways, Alan Henning may become the kind of iconic image for the decade. A man of the streets, with more than a bit of baggage, but also doing something right - which got out of control.

Does the act of how he was killed mean that the reality of the ordinary man can or should be disassociated from his virtue, or is it part of it? He was killed because an icon, his British citizenship, was put in front of his humanity: he was held when his colleagues, of Arabic ethnicity, were freed, in many ways making him a victim of reverse racism: his colleagues don't see him that way, he was one of them and they were part of him. It makes this us-and-them rather nonsense, in fact.

In killing him, therefore, the ISxx put themselves up against humanity. They iconised someone to whom that icon did not apply, (one can see elements of Inquisition tactics there: People's Front of Judea, Judean People's Front, how right the Pythons were! The Judean Popular People's Front, the Campaign for a Free Galilee...) and so made a valid martyr icon. It's so tempting to do unto them...

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Mrrzy
Date: 04 Oct 14 - 08:37 PM

Daesh. Pronounced kinda like Dash.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 05 Oct 14 - 02:32 AM

It's the mental leaps that make debate here infantile.

So by criticising Israel you hate Israeli people? Yeah right. Perhaps the difference between you and I might just be that I do visit Israel, not as often as I used to but I do. I have friends there, good friends with views ranging from disgust at their government to quoting scripture regarding land grabs.

No I don't hate. Unlike you, I seem to have the ability to be objective. Perhaps, judging by the posts of some on here, if stems from a perspective of better understanding.

Mind you, even if I were as thick as some here, I would still have the advantage of agreement with most commentators.

Perhaps Keith would be happy if we ended each post with "and for balance here is a list of other countries whose foreign policy is suspect to say the least."

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Oct 14 - 04:30 AM

So by criticising Israel you hate Israeli people? Yeah right.

No, wrong.
No country is above criticism, least of all Israel.
All countries should be criticised.

I was commenting on people who ONLY criticise Israel while ignoring greater and worse misdeeds all around it.
Who even ignore the medieval barbaric evil of the Caliphate and just use it as another platform to attack Israel.

They always and only attack Israel, even on a thread dedicated to discussion of the most evil entity on Earth by a long way, and about which they have almost nothing to say.

Sorry, but it does suggest an irrational dislike of that country or its people.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Oct 14 - 08:59 AM

Despite all the coalition air strikes, more ground is lost.
They have entered Kobane and it will soon be in their hands.
It is within easy range of the Turkish army on the border, but they have not intervened.
They did prevent Kurds from crossing the border to help Kobane.
Kurds accuse Turkey of colluding with IS against them.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: robomatic
Date: 07 Oct 14 - 04:25 PM

Date: 03 Oct 14 - 06:41 PM Steve Shaw wrote:

They are under threat because they are the most bellicose nation on the planet.

Bothered to check out North Korea, lately. You've posted overblown attacks on Israel (in a thread not devoted to Israel), some outright falsehoods, and when you've been responded to point-by-point (at your own request) you've resorted to ad-hominem attack. You are welcome to say what you want on Israel but this thread is not supposed to be about Israel, there were two others going strong a couple weeks ago.

Back to the Caliphate:
Is there any information on tactical reasons why IS is so successful. I heard a snatch of radio play indicating that IS had tanks and artillery, which apparently the Kurds do not have.
I am wondering out loud why solid targets like tanks and artillery can't be destroyed from the air, and I'm wondering why the Kurds can't get hold of some of those readily transportable anti-tank weapons.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Oct 14 - 06:50 PM

Well, just about every thread I ever start on the interwebbie gets hijacked and I'm pretty cheerful about it. You do not get to tell me what I can post on what thread, thanks. My posts are nearly always reactions to what someone else has posted, as it happens. I note that you do not go for the jugulars in quite the same way of your pro-Israeli allies who post here about Israel. Don't be so uncomfortably sensitive is my advice. While you're at it, I note that, oddly, you wish to widen the discussion still further to North Korea, so may I take this opportunity of asking you in what way North Korea has been bellicose towards its neighbours recently? Everything I can think of is wrong with that silly regime except for bellicosity towards its neighbours. Unless, of course, you count a few damp squibs fired into the ocean and think that words can hurt as much as sticks and stones.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Oct 14 - 06:54 PM

You are welcome to say what you want on Israel but this thread is not supposed to be about Israel,

Yeah, except the machinations of the Israeli government, aided, abetted, and supported by the U.S. of A., has a great deal to do with creating the situation that is now being faced in the middle east.

Do look up "blowback", Robo.

Or not- just keep your head buried in the sand.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: robomatic
Date: 07 Oct 14 - 07:19 PM

You are both, Steve and Greg F. masters of selective attention.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Oct 14 - 07:56 PM

And you, Robo, are a master of selective IN-attention.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Oct 14 - 08:23 PM

Let's focus back on the question, therefore.
1. Turkey at the moment is defacto allied with ISxx, as they are knocking the stuffing out of the Kurds. The Turkish Government has nothing to fear from reproaches that they did nothing, as all they have to say is "we took in millions of you as refugees", and yet at the same time they are able to divide and conquer a possible problem.
2. That may seem shortsighted from a Western point of view. But at the same time, it is our self-interest which paints it that way, Turkey asked long enough to join the EU and was consistently told that they need to resolve their human rights policies such as this, and so no longer feels it owes Europe anything.
3. IS, having secured its rear, may either continue to milk Iraq, or more likely turn right into Jordan and Israel. King Abdulla's alignment with the UK from his Sandhurst days must make him an appealing target.
4. If it does continue through Iraq, it's next step will be into the Gulf, to increase its grip on fuel supplies. However, it is still small, and relies on mobility: towns tie their forces down, and make them vulnerable to attack. At the moment, the air forces are based too far away to respond tactically. However, if IS were to attack Turkey seriously (by which I mean the heartland, the Turks will be only too happy to see the refugee camps cleaned out - yes, that's genocide, but they won't be the ones perpetrating it), then IS might find they get bogged in.
5. In dealing with the Gulf, they deal with their brethren the Gulf Salafi, who are not the most genteel rulers. In this, they have to hold their heads high with a reputation for brutality, as they are dealing with the likes of Nasr al Khalifa, who's just made the headlines for butchery. I had the somewhat interesting pleasure of the Prince's hospitality ealier this year, as he needed my advice on something, and in prson he is both highly cultured when it pleases him and utterly lethal, very much the Medici Prince. Thankfully I did not have the duty of telling him where he got off, as he threw his toys out of the pram: he is now wondering exactly who he was talking to as he never expected to have an International Arrest Warrant against him. But never for a moment in dealing with these think that they have any interest other than their own as leaders of their tribe. Their money maskes them capricious at best, and homicidal at worst: and it is very likely that the idea of a viable Califate will pleaase them. However, it will also cause serious behind-the-scenes infighting as they will all see themselves as Calif and will NOT appreciate the power behind the throne being quite so apostate as IS.

One aspect the West needs to think about, and quickly, is that if it does not do something quickly to build the Kurds, then Turkey will have to clean the house, leaving them with a hegemonic claim over Syria and Iraq. Are we really happy with that thought?

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Oct 14 - 08:39 PM

Well I'm not over the moon about any of your thoughts to be honest, even though you seem to have your finger on the pulse a bit more than most of us. :-) I'm no fan of Erdogan but I can't for one minute think that Turkey could ever be in league with ISIS in a million years. They are just as worried as we are about getting boots-on-the-ground involved. It seems to me that we have only two options. Either we go in with our armies on the ground, big-time, or we assist the Syrian army to resist ISIS, again big-time. Unless you have a better idea. Discuss. I could agree with you about the threat to Jordan. Now that could be WW3. We have a battle on our hands but I'm not quite the Mr Apocalypse that you are. Not yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Oct 14 - 01:38 AM

"you do not go for the jugulars in quite the same way of your pro-Israeli allies who post here about Israel. Don't be so uncomfortably sensitive is my advice."
.,,.

You were not being quite fair here, Steve. The pro-Israel posters on here have been responding to drift-style hostile posts aimed at Israel; none of them has been the original hijacker of this thread to introduce Israel irrelevantly [or at best marginally] into the argument. e

Guest's excellent analysis above should get the thread back on track. Why don't we all just keep Israel out of it.

≈M≈

As to your truculent opening about how you will post about what you please, and no-one shall stop you --

I am sure you will like to know that our cat Cleo has stopped covering our patio with murdered mice & birds, as we did not appear to her to treat her gifts with the delight she had clearly expected.

And we had roast duck portions for our Sunday lunch this week, instead of a joint.

And I didn't think "Grantchester' on ITV was much cop.

And.........................

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Oct 14 - 04:29 AM

In response to GUEST - Date: 07 Oct 14 - 08:23 PM

"1. Turkey at the moment is defacto allied with ISxx, as they are knocking the stuffing out of the Kurds. The Turkish Government has nothing to fear from reproaches that they did nothing, as all they have to say is "we took in millions of you as refugees", and yet at the same time they are able to divide and conquer a possible problem."

Ehmmm NO – Turkey is at present dealing simultaneously with the following:
(a) - A massive humanitarian refugee crisis
(b) – Understandable civic unrest by a large minority ethnic group within its borders, the military wing of which is itself an acknowledged terrorist group proscribed by both the Turkish Government and by the USA.
(c) – Trying to seal a 900 kilometre long border with a country that is in a self-destructive downward spiral.
(d) – Turkey MUST tread very carefully with regard to Syria as the current regime in Syria is closely allied to Russia and Turkey is a member of NATO (Something that you appear to have completely failed to mention)

(THAT factor Steve Shaw is where the WW3 might come into things – NOTHING to do with Jordan)

The Kurds in Turkey, the Kurds in Iraq, the Kurds in Iran and the Kurds in Syria are of no concern at all to the Turkish Government – all three Kurdish groups are actively seeking political dialogue as the means to achieving their goals not as a united Kurdish Nation but as identities within their present countries (In the summer of 2012 President Bashar Al-Assad ceded control of the Kurdish area of Syria including several Kurdish cities to the PYD {Syrian affiliate of the PKK}).



"2. That may seem shortsighted from a Western point of view. But at the same time, it is our self-interest which paints it that way, Turkey asked long enough to join the EU and was consistently told that they need to resolve their human rights policies such as this, and so no longer feels it owes Europe anything."

Turkey as a NATO member can render humanitarian assistance and support – what it cannot do under any circumstances as a country is intervene unilaterally directly in Syria. If on the other hand they can provoke an IS attack on Turkish troops or on Syrian refugees on Turkish soil then IS falls into the NATO treaty Article 5 & Article 6 trap where an attack on one is an attack on all – the precedent is Al-Qaeda and 9/11.
Turkey can provoke this attack by providing support for the Kurds and it could use the situation to its advantage in negotiations with the PKK Leadership. The second the first IS shell lands on Turkish soil the game changes – The US/NATO/Turkey tell Assad in Syria to attack IS and tell Russia either to assist Assad in that attack or keep completely out of the picture. Up until now no real tactical air weapon capable of taking on troops deployed for an attack has been used – once Turkey has been attacked then A-10s and Helicopter Gunships can loiter and hunt out individual IS units.

"3. IS, having secured its rear, may either continue to milk Iraq, or more likely turn right into Jordan and Israel. King Abdulla's alignment with the UK from his Sandhurst days must make him an appealing target."
I would dearly like to know precisely what it is that IS "controls" in either Syria (A broken totally dysfunctional state) or Iraq (A fractured state in the process of reconstruction). There is absolutely no border, or territory for that matter that IS can "secure" as you call it. It is only a matter of time, the "boots-on-the-ground" have to be Iraqi, Kurdish, Syrian boots on the ground and they will take time to raise (particularly inside Syria) Oh and by the way what would make Jordan an appealing target "Guest" has got S.F.A. to do with " King Abdulla's alignment with the UK from his Sandhurst days" but might have a lot to do with:

(a) Robbing their "Anti-Assad" moderate opponents in Syria of attractive and potential training and support bases from which the FSA could attack IS in either Anbar Province in Iraq, or in central Syria.
(b) They might possibly tempt the Israelis into acting due to their presence and thereby enhance their appeal in the "Muslim World"
(c) Obtain for their Caliphate their first free access to a seaport (Aqaba)
(d) They would find themselves parked along the borders of the richest prize of all in the region – The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia.

"4. If it does continue through Iraq, it's next step will be into the Gulf, to increase its grip on fuel supplies. However, it is still small, and relies on mobility: towns tie their forces down, and make them vulnerable to attack. At the moment, the air forces are based too far away to respond tactically. However, if IS were to attack Turkey seriously (by which I mean the heartland, the Turks will be only too happy to see the refugee camps cleaned out - yes, that's genocide, but they won't be the ones perpetrating it), then IS might find they get bogged in."

They will not "continue through Iraq" as you put it, they have reached their "high water mark" there, from where they are now it is Shia all the way, and they will fight, in Iraq today it has been the Shia and the Kurds that have stopped them and it will be the Iraqi Shia, Iraqi Sunni and the Iraqi Kurds that will forcibly drive IS out of Iraq.
As stated above – If IS attack anyone on Turkish soil it will NATO that comes after them and unlike the Taliban in Afghanistan, IS have no "Pakistan" to run to and hide in in the region. The spin-off will be that NATO will effectively control the airspace over northern, central and eastern Syria and that will allow the moderate FSA further space to train, equip and attack Assad.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 08 Oct 14 - 08:32 AM

Teribus
I was part of a very small team entrusted with Western Europe's Article 5 commitment for ten years 2001-2011, and as a senior officer in a larger team for 8 years before that, 1993-2001: my late spouse was central to that team for five years before that. Article 5 is not meant to be a hair-trigger in the way you describe, but as a bottom-line buck-stops-here defence of the survival of a nation.
If it were invoked in the way you describe, it would be devalued. Politics and international relations requires a certain robustness, and during the Cold War, the Eastern Block was forever perpetrating minor incursions along the Iron Curtain border. These were on the same scale as may be envisaged from IS, and so i see no reason whatsoever for the Article to be invoked, not least because IS is amorphous and cannot therefore be treated with.
The existing provisions for response to terrorism are entirely adequate for any measures needed. The bombing is not undertaken in the Article 5 framework, for example, and it moreover demonstrates the Russian position on Syria is not as you describe: they have changed radically over the last month, as they are likely to be on the receiving end of whichever body wins in the IS vs Kurds battle, and so the vetos flung around with wild abandon in the UNSC a year ago are now strangely absent. Kurdistan also includes a chunk of Southern Russia, and IS aligning with the Chechens is an even worse nightmare to them, as they might suck in the rest of Muslim Central Asia.
Russia's support for Syria was never altruistic, as I've described here previously, but in defence of an interest in the Med ports. However, Syria no longer controls them, IS have cut them off from Damascus, and so Russia is less interested in Assad, whose past human rights record comes home to roost. Had Assad not provoked civil war, none of what has followed would have happened, and Russia will also ask him for its price.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Musket
Date: 08 Oct 14 - 08:40 AM

Serves you right for watching ITV

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Oct 14 - 07:50 PM

:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 09 Oct 14 - 03:59 AM

Watching the NATO Turkish News Conference, there is only one thing which is clear, that the removal of Assad remains on the table, and that Turkey will do nothing to promote it, not least because of the cost. The NATO SG maintains support for Turkey's defence, preferring to seek to reinforce Iraq's military, which IMHO is another way of saying he'll do nothing effective.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Oct 14 - 04:51 AM

Of what possible concern can it be to the officious Musket which tv channels my wife & I opt to view in our leisure times. Really is an old-womanly little bizziboddy, innit!

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Oct 14 - 04:53 AM

...with dear old Shaw as his toadying arslikkun assistant

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Oct 14 - 11:37 AM

IS continues to make gains despite coalition air strikes.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Oct 14 - 03:14 AM

Guest Rahere, articles 5 & 6 were most certainly invoked in the wake of the attacks on the USA on the 11th September 2001.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Oct 14 - 05:18 AM

US have airdropped weapons and stores to Kurds in Kobane, barely outside Turkish border.
Turks had refused to supply them because they regard them as terrorists.

Subject: RE: BS: Caliphate
From: bobad
Date: 20 Oct 14 - 08:00 AM

Turks are facilitating Turkish Peshmerga to cross border into Syria to fight IS.