Info on Cider Vinegar please.

Subject: Info on Cider Vinegar please.
From: RoyH (Burl)
Date: 06 Jul 14 - 04:02 PM

The combined effects of Diabetes,Arthritis of hips and spine, and old age, now combine to make walking a painful experience for me. I grieve about this because in my life I have enjoyed walking for recreation, it was one of my great pleasures. Nowadays all I can manage is a slow shuffle with frequent rests. Going uphill is torture, so is climbing stairs. I don't want to remain housebound, or to forgo interesting travel, so have tried every kind of painkiller my DR can prescribe, all to no effect.
An aquaintance has told me of a 'folk' remedy his family swore by, namely Cider Vinegar. I must admit I've never heard of this before but I'm ready to try anything that might make me walk pleasurably again.
Can any 'Catter advise me on this? How much to take? Neat ot with water or mixer? How often, etc? I will be very grateful for any advice. Especially if it works. Thank you in advance. Roy.

Subject: RE: Info on Cider Vinegar please.
From: Jeri
Date: 06 Jul 14 - 04:13 PM

This article in Arthritis Research UK has some suggestions. It sounds like "snake oil" to me, but cider vinegar is inexpensive, and so wouldn't hurt to try. I'm sorry for you pain, Roy, and I hope it helps you.

Subject: RE: Info on Cider Vinegar please.
From: Mr Red
Date: 06 Jul 14 - 05:04 PM

I have been told that Neatsfoot Oil is a palliative. Rubbed on joints. The problem is that although you can buy neatsfoot compound at any equestrian centre, the "compound" is adulterated with mineral and other oils to ensure it remains fluid in the cold (say 5 degC). Pure Neatsfoot is available on line and not that expensive. Not all vendors are too honest but I have found a few who are proud of their "purity".
At about the price of a cheap meal the stuff lasts a long time. It is not a miracle cure & I can't report its effects on severe cases, but it helps me dance without thinking about any limitations. We will see if Sidmouth reveals how efficacious it is. Ibuprofen tablets & Ibuprofen cream helped last year but the quack was not impressed with using both. But it will be a severe test.

The neatsfoot story relates to ostlers' noticing they had less of a problem than their contemporaries. It was also rubbed on broken bones after the plaster was removed.

Cider vinegar - I only know of its use in NZ to give a daily dose to sheep. As one guy pointed out - they fare much better when they are not neglected any way!

Best of luck.

Subject: RE: Info on Cider Vinegar please.
From: sciencegeek
Date: 06 Jul 14 - 06:10 PM

if the arthritis is causing bone spurs to form, I would suggest trying the combination of glucosamine & chondrotin - easy to find in tablet form... but take it a serving of activated yogurt. Bone is naturally made and absorbed by the body, so having the ingredients for repair at hand, so to speak, has helped me deal with normal wear & tear.

That said, be sure that your cartilage & joints are OK... that means a check up with doctor or chiropractor. being out of alignment will aggravate a problem and sometime steroids help prevent further damage to a joint.

Small doses of vinegar can't hurt... maybe use in a salad dressing so you can get your greens as well.

Subject: RE: Info on Cider Vinegar please.
From: Musket
Date: 06 Jul 14 - 06:22 PM

Sometimes a lot to be said for mind over matter and placebo.

Tesco sell it. I use it in cooking. Mrs Musket, a doctor, has had patients ask her about it's effect as an anti inflammatory so she looked up trials. There have been a couple of blinded trials but no evidence to suggest improvement over whatever they used as placebo.

I used to chair the local NHS body with an office next door to Arthritis Research UK HQ in Chesterfield and we had good links with them. They do have good information for people suffering from arthritis. I suggest you browse their website.

One thing I can say.. Many GPs wish there were alternatives and improvements to how they address it, and if something actually worked, the pharma industry would have dived in by now.....

Subject: RE: Info on Cider Vinegar please.
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 01:07 AM

Some people are helped by eating jello.

Subject: RE: Info on Cider Vinegar please.
From: Ed T
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 06:09 AM

I have been told it is helpful for gout.

Subject: RE: Info on Cider Vinegar please.
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 07:35 AM

Of no relevance to your condition but Cider Vinegar does help keep Red Mites off hens. A capful added to their water (5 litres)works a treat.

I've heard that cannabis can help with Arthritis, see your GP for legal access.

Subject: RE: Info on Cider Vinegar please.
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 09:00 AM

if something actually worked, the pharma industry would have dived in by now.....

Not likely. Pharma looks for patentable products which can
bring in big bucks and keep competition down. They can't
do that with cheap, reaily available "folk remedies" like cider vinegar, be it ever
so effective.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Info on Cider Vinegar please.
From: GUEST,rb
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 09:12 AM

"Vermont Folk Medicine" by Dr. Jarvis (an old book)has a lot of good info on the health benefits of this. I use it almost daily for the past few decades now. A couple of spoonfuls in Apple juice works. Great stuff

Subject: RE: Info on Cider Vinegar please.
From: freda underhill
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 09:41 AM

It's a traditional remedy and considering the apple has been given special status in some societies and religions, the hype may be based on superstition. I drink a few drops of apple cider vinegar in a glass of water several times a day. Yes, it seems to help my arthritis, no, I'm not sure if its the placebo effect, but, because it works, I don't care.

Here's some info from Dr Mercola:
One possible explanation for apple cider vinegar's health benefits is its high concentrations of acetic acid. Like other acids, acetic acid can increase your body's absorption of important minerals from the foods you eat, such as green leafy vegetables.

Read more in this article on what the research really says about apple cider vinegar

the article also cites research suggesting that apple cider vinegar may lower blood glucose levels. Good luck, I hope it or something else can ease the pain of your arthritis.

freda

Subject: RE: Info on Cider Vinegar please.
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 09:57 AM

Most conditions of the body either cure themselves with time or they get better in response to the weather, diet or stress in one's life. Therefore, there's plenty of chance for people to try a naive or fraudulent 'cure', then praise it for any improvement that occurred naturally.

Me, when evaluating a treatment, I'm impressed by two things.

   1. Is there a logical, observed chemical or physical reason why the 'cure' helps the body?

For example, aspirin works because it neutralizes the acids produced by inflamed muscles and makes the muscles stop hurting. Simple.

A brace for the wrist at night keeps me from putting weight on my sore wrist.

   2. Has it proved definitely helpful in a double-blind test?

As for you, RoyH, you tell us you have diabetes. Mudcatters have no business suggesting 'cures' which might affect the treatment of your diabetes. All I can do is suggest that you talk to your doctors about your longing for mobility and see what they can do for you.

Encouraging story: I came back from a trip to France with one foot and ankle in bad pain. The foot doctor said, "You've overworked it." I wore a special boot for two weeks, and my foot has been fine ever since - a period of one year.

Subject: RE: Info on Cider Vinegar please.
From: Musket
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 10:14 AM

Dave. The pharma industry aren't interested in cider vinegar but we do rely on them to find combinations of active ingredients, change a few consistencies and begin trials. Not necessarily cynical, just amplifying to a therapeutic dose, and that is patentable,trust me...

As there have been trials of cider vinegar by academic institutions, I guarantee there will have been commercial interest.

Leeneia, braces are non invasive. Nothing wrong in proper clinical trials for them but no legal compunction either.

Anybody interested in the good, bad and ugly of clinical trials, google Dr Ben Goldacre, and better still, buy his excellent "Bad Science" book. Amongst other things, it gives credence to folk cures in that believing in the merit of a potion guarantees 20% of the population will benefit from it. (Placebo effect.)

Subject: RE: Info on Cider Vinegar please.
From: bobad
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 10:30 AM

So much unscientific mumbo jumbo in this thread it boggles the mind.

To address just one:

"aspirin works because it neutralizes the acids produced by inflamed muscles and makes the muscles stop hurting."

Erm, no. Aspirin itself is an acid - acetylsalicylic acid so it cannot and does not do any such thing. The anti-inflammatory effect of aspirin is due to it's inhibition of an enzyme, cyclo-oxygenase, a mediator in the production of prostaglandins which are substances responsible for inflammation. Dr. John Vane received the Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine in 1982 for his role in discovering the mode of action of aspirin.

Subject: RE: Info on Cider Vinegar please.
From: gnu
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 11:51 AM

Read second last paragraph first.

Tips on using vinegar

Several people have suggested I try cider vinegar and honey to help with my arthritis. In Arthritis Today 149 a letter was written by David Vautier on the same subject. Unfortunately I'm unable to find any reference to the dosage, and I would be very grateful if anyone could help me in this matter.
Mrs H M Coombes, Caerleon, Newport

Editor's Note: We have no scientific evidence to suggest that cider vinegar and honey is helpful. However, previous correspondents have suggested dissolving a teaspoon of honey in boiling water in a drinking glass. Add cold water and a teaspoon of cider vinegar, mix thoroughly, and take before food three times a day.
I've had osteoarthritis since my early sixties (I'm now approaching 90). I've had two hip replacements and very stiff knees. I used to be able to walk for about 20 minutes, or 30 with difficulty, after which time my back became increasingly uncomfortable. Then a friend recommended cider vinegar, which she had read about in a newspaper. You take a dessertspoonful in a glass of water, three times a day. The taste isn't more than mildly unpleasant, but if you prefer, you can add honey, then it's a pleasant drink. My health food shop sells Honegar, which is cider vinegar with honey. The result is miraculous! I can now walk as much as I want to. Several of my friends have tried it with good results, so I warmly recommend it to your readers.
P J Raikes, Oxford, Oxfordshire
Last year I read an article in the Daily Mail about curing arthritis. I passed this information on to two friends who had crippling pain in their swollen joints and had been under the doctor for months – but no drugs they were given eased the pain. They took the advice and tried apple vinegar and honey in hot water four times a day. The arthritis has completely left them. John is now playing lawn bowls again: before he could not even hold a bowling ball. George is now able to work his garden, and I have just received a bag of Jersey potatoes from him. I've seen the proof that this remedy works.
David Vautier, Beaumont St Peter, Jersey

Please note that views expressed in the Hints Box are those of readers and are not necessarily the views of Arthritis Research UK.

- See more at: http://www.arthritisresearchuk.org/arthritis-information/hints-and-tips/diet/cider-vinegar.aspx#sthash.ubyqHkZ8.dpuf

Subject: RE: Info on Cider Vinegar please.
From: gnu
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 12:34 PM

Got a question about nightshade veggies. In particular, tasty stewed tomatoes. I am in pain. It was worse yesterday. The day before, I cooked up an easily slapped together old fav, macaroni, hamburger and tomatoe (canned Roma) laced with garlic and onions powders and pepper. I immediately recalled the last time I made it because the pain jogged my brain.

Subject: RE: Info on Cider Vinegar please.
From: gnu
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 12:39 PM

8 cherries = one aspirin. No proof and I can't remember where I read it. Dunno if it's good for arthritis but 32 cherries a day knocks my blood pressure down.

http://www.healthline.com/health-slideshow/apple-cider-vinegar-cherry-juice-arthritis

Subject: RE: Info on Cider Vinegar please.
From: Musket
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 12:42 PM

Not surprised the pressure lowers. All those cherries, your pressure release valve will have kicked in when you ran to the toilet.

Subject: RE: Info on Cider Vinegar please.
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 12:46 PM

we had a friend who learned that he was allergic to nightshades...

pretty traumatic for an Italian who grew up on tomatoes & eggplant.

For an unlucky few it seems that the chemicals have adverse affects.

from site listed below:
One of the major problems attributed to nightshades is arthritis. In fact, one in three arthritics will react badly to nightshades. Some researchers believe that arthritis is often misdiagnosed in people who may in fact only be experiencing the effects of nightshade consumption.

Alkaloids appear to affect the metabolism of calcium. Though not yet understood how, nightshade foods may remove calcium from bones and deposit it in soft tissue, setting the stage for arthritis. For this reason, researchers have recommended that all individuals with osteoarthritis, rheumatoid arthritis or other joint problems like gout eliminate nightshade foods from their diet.



Learn more: http://www.naturalnews.com/027978_nightshade_vegetables.html#ixzz36nmBk7TW

Subject: RE: Info on Cider Vinegar please.
From: Jeri
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 01:37 PM

Gnu, about cherries. Presumably, since this article mentioned the study at Michigan State U, one might be able to find the study, and there will likely be others.

Subject: RE: Info on Cider Vinegar please.
From: gnu
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 02:05 PM

Good info guys. Thanks.

Subject: RE: Info on Cider Vinegar please.
From: Irene M
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 02:13 PM

Dilute it well in water and drink. Quite refreshing. It does not require the addition of honey.
Also look into extract of Green Lipped Mussels. Worked wonders for a friend with non-advanced arthritis. You have to avoid booze though, as it cancels out the effects of the GLMs.

Subject: RE: Info on Cider Vinegar please.
From: Ed T
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 02:29 PM

"Recommended to remove the cherry pits before you swallow 'em. "
Signed machine gun kelly.
:)

Subject: RE: Info on Cider Vinegar please.
From: Mr Red
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 05:49 PM

Cannabis has has a lot of anecdotal evidence. In the New Scientist there was a report on research that found it to work by suppressing the immune system. Given that arthritis is an auto-immune disease it does seem likely.
But other research shows that at the 7 day level after dosage, all that mellowness that is alleged, turns into aggression, and I have seen it in a work colleague and had it confirmed by the wife of a lorry driver. The proponents of the weed don't tell you that, they wouldn't correlate the effect & the dose.
And then nicotime is an immuno-suppresant so e-ciggies might have a similar effect.
Personally I'll stick with Neatsfoot oil until my walking is seriously compromised then go for the naproxen the quack prescribed.

Subject: RE: Info on Cider Vinegar please.
From: Ebbie
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 06:09 PM

Interesting.

Once, after suffering a 'charley horse' (a severe cramp) in my upper thigh, I was told by my doctor to put a cupful or two (I've forgotten) of cider vinegar in bath water and soak my leg. He said that cider vinegar is a muscle relaxant. I've never heard that anywhere else.

I wonder if vinegar-soaked compresses applied over aching joints would help?

Subject: RE: Info on Cider Vinegar please.
From: bobad
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 06:49 PM

"Given that arthritis is an auto-immune disease"

Not necessarily so. There are many types of arthritis the most common being osteoarthritis which is not of auto-immune etiology. It is caused by wear and tear of joint cartilage which occurs most commonly because of aging, excessive weight, injury and there is perhaps an inherited tendency. Rheumatoid arthritis, on the other hand, is an auto-immune disorder typically affecting the joints of the hands and feet which exhibit painful swelling and deformity.

Subject: RE: Info on Cider Vinegar please.
From: Gurney
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 07:00 PM

There is a well-known book by P.C. and P. Bragg, called simply 'Apple Cider Vinegar,' published in California. It recommends unfiltered product, which looks awful.
Green-lip Mussel Extract is produced here in N.Z., and is expensive as it is B.S. pharmaceutical grade, although the live mussels are available cheaply in supermarkets.

Subject: RE: Info on Cider Vinegar please.
From: Ed T
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 07:15 PM

Gout is also recognized as a form of  -- an inflammation of the joints. Oes acv work? No studies saying yes or no, that I can find. But, many folks say it has helped them.

gout and apple cider vinegar 

Subject: RE: Info on Cider Vinegar please.
From: Ed T
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 08:20 PM

New research:

Chinese herbal remedy for treating rheumatoid arthritis 

Subject: RE: Info on Cider Vinegar please.
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 05:40 AM

In the Nursey rhyme of Jack and Jill, Jack mends his head with Vinegar and brown paper. Any relevance?

Subject: RE: Info on Cider Vinegar please.
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 06:52 AM

Anyonecremember Dr. Mirkin from radio broadcasts? He suggests research indicates some forms of arthritis can be helped by antibiotics.

Dr. Gabe Mirkin 

Subject: RE: Info on Cider Vinegar please.
From: kendall
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 10:38 AM

I use vinegar as a balm for hellish leg cramps at night.
My doctor just cut my statins in half to combat the pains.
They are unbelievably painful, 9 to 10 on the pain scale.

Subject: RE: Info on Cider Vinegar please.
From: GUEST, topsie
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 11:25 AM

There is an old saying that "an apple a day keeps the doctor away". So is it the fact that it is made of apples that is the important part, or is it because it is vinegar (as used by Jack with his brown paper), or does it have to be both?

Subject: RE: Info on Cider Vinegar please.
From: gnu
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 12:26 PM

Great info!

Irene M... "You have to avoid booze though, as it cancels out the effects of the GLMs." Tsk-tsk says I. >;-)

Ed T... you crack me up!

Subject: RE: Info on Cider Vinegar please.
From: RoyH (Burl)
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 07:24 AM

Thank you to all who have posted on here. You have given me plenty of info, and much to think about. Will report progress later. ROY

Subject: RE: Info on Cider Vinegar please.
From: gnu
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 03:50 PM

So... apple cider vinegar or cider vinegar? That's the choice I found up the street. What's the difference?

Subject: RE: Info on Cider Vinegar please.
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 04:00 PM

Cider vinegar is made from cider which is made from apple, apple cider vinegar is made from cider which is REALLY, REALLY, REALLY made from apples!

Subject: RE: Info on Cider Vinegar please.
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 04:13 PM

since vinegar can be made from either the pressed juice (cider) or from the apple must (the mashed remains from the apple press), I'd wager that the vinegar made from must is just referred to as cider vinegar... but just a guess. The must is pretty dry, so water has to be added before any chance of making vinegar.

Subject: RE: Info on Cider Vinegar please.
From: bobad
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 06:44 PM

This is a pretty good review of the purported health benefits of cider vinegar which references actual peer reviewed scientific journals: http://jdc325.wordpress.com/2007/09/24/apple-cider-vinegar/

Subject: RE: Info on Cider Vinegar please.
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 11:51 PM

My wife the chiropractor says drinking large quantities can cause stomach and intestinal disorders, but it has many curative qualities if used in moderation.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: Info on Cider Vinegar please.
From: RoyH (Burl)
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 07:32 AM

Thanks for these postings, and Joe, my apologies for posting my original message on the wrong side of the line.

Subject: RE: Info on Cider Vinegar please.
From: gnu
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 08:04 AM

Thanks, bobad.

Subject: RE: Info on Cider Vinegar please.
From: GUEST, topsie
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 08:33 AM

Well, unsure whether it is the appliness or the vinegariness that is the important ingredient, I am plumping for a remedy somewhere in between - I have decided to drink some cider every day. I'll report back later on as to whether there is any improvement.

Subject: RE: Info on Cider Vinegar please.
From: Dorothy Parshall
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 08:34 PM

Apples contain pectin which a bunch of potters have found useful for their arthritis. Apple Cider vinegar, contains pectin which can also be obtained as a capsule or powder if one is so inlcined, in moderation is good for all sorts of things, including indigestion, food poisoning and arthritis. I have been using it for about 40 years, almost daily in a glass of water. Hold the honey as it gives me too much sugar. At 77, I am still potting with only an occasional twinge in the fingers lately. The pain in my hip and knee which sent me into a tailspin two years ago, stopped in a week when I started taking magnesium citrate = 1/4 t/day. Also prevents leg and foot cramps. MSM and glucosamine has healed the unidentified pain in my shoulder; six months ago I had to pick up my right hand with my left in order to brush my hair. Now I have full range of movement.

That is how I have dealt with, and continue to deal with arthritis and other maladjustments of my aging body. It is cheap and includes no poisonous and expensive prescription drugs. I have not seen a doctor in about 10 years and hope not to have occasion to do so in the future - unless I break a bone.

Subject: RE: Info on Cider Vinegar please.
From: Bert
Date: 11 Jul 14 - 02:34 AM

I did read a book years ago which claimed that Cider vinegar and honey would cure just about anything.

As Jeri says, It sounds like snake oil.

BUT, small amounts of any kind of vinegar can help digestion and so improve absorption of nutrients from your food.

Honey contains an antibiotic which stops it fermenting, but would probably not be too good for a diabetic.

Lou tried green lipped mussel pills for her arthritis but they didn't help. They smelled good though and I threatened to steal them to use in gumbo.

Two other folk remedies that you might try are laughter and stress relief. One study 'found' that putting a pillow in a corner and kicking the shit out of it, helped relieve arthritis pain.

I was singing my usual silly songs at The Doylestown Arts Festival one year and a woman came up to me after and told me that her arthritis had been hurting that morning, but she laughed so much that the pain had all gone away.

Subject: RE: Info on Cider Vinegar please.
From: GUEST,marmdad
Date: 11 Jul 14 - 10:24 PM

Reference to gout, six cherries a day takes care of that, and they are good.

Subject: RE: Info on Cider Vinegar please.
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 11 Jul 14 - 11:49 PM

Fermented foods in general are considered very healthy, not just vinegar. This book (The Art of Fermentation) offers a lot of information, including vinegar.

SRS

Subject: RE: Info on Cider Vinegar please.
From: LadyJean
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 12:27 AM

Back when I was a Scottish highland dancer, my teacher taught me a great remedy for leg cramps. Put the sole of your foot on something cold. It works. Ice works, so will a cold piece of metal, or the rim of a bathtub.

I wonder how cherry cider, once a farmstand staple, would work. It's delicious stuff. But you don't see it as often as you used to.

Subject: RE: Info on Cider Vinegar please.
From: Dorothy Parshall
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 11:45 PM

I never heard of cherry cider but cherries are incredibly good for me so I can see where it would be helpful.

Subject: RE: Info on Cider Vinegar please.
From: Dorothy Parshall
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 09:38 PM

Useful for many things

Subject: RE: Info on Cider Vinegar please.
From: Dorothy Parshall
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 09:40 PM

http://www.mnn.com/health/fitness-well-being/stories/12-health-benefits-of-apple-cider-vinegar


Might get the hang of the "blue clicky" someday.

Subject: RE: Info on Cider Vinegar please.
From: GUEST, topsie
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 02:48 PM

I have drunk some cider nearly every day for two weeks now. I am sorry to have to report that I didn't even manage a placebo effect - if anything, the arthritis is worse. I suppose I should now go in search of cider vinegar, to see if that works.

Subject: RE: Info on Cider Vinegar please.
From: Rumncoke
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 08:17 AM

Adding a few very thin slices of fresh ginger root to the tea pot has helped my joints - I stopped it to see if the improvement was permanent - it wasn't.

One bit of root lasts a long time as I reuse slices for several days until all the pep is just about gone - then I eat it, there is usually a hot bit in the middle.