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A worrying circular from a folk club
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Subject: A worrying circular from a folk club From: Vic Smith Date: 09 Jul 14 - 01:51 PM I have just received the following circular from a folk club just outside London. It is probably going to be controversial on Mudcat so may I apologise in advance for any unpleasantness that arises in advance of my starting this thread. However, I find the thoughts and actions behind the message deeply worrying, First of all the message: - Hi all, Let me give my reasons for concern - First of all the licensing authorities (advised by the police, I wonder?) - * Do they have the right to warn of potential trouble from one particular ethnic group? Is this permissible under any of Britain's Race Relations laws? Why cannot a group of people have a wake in a pub as other people can just because they are gypsies? Then the publican - * I suppose he has to think that if there were trouble in his pub following a funeral - whoever it was caused by - he might find his business in danger for not following what he probably takes to be police advice - And what about the folk club organiser? * How does he describe this traveller invasion - " a carriage with six white horses for the coffin, three truck-loads of floral tributes, twelve stretch Rolls-Royces plus innumerable other vehicles." Does this sound like a crowd of cut-throat thugs or does it sound like the funeral of a member of some successful traveller business whose family are spending a great deal of money to show their last respects to a member of their community. I ran a folk club for 50 years. We had many Scots, Irish and English travellers as guests; they are, after all, the outstandingly most important tradition bearers in these islands. Many of these lovely people stayed at our house after performing at our club. A large proportion of my song and tune repertoire was learned from gypsy traveller sources. Tina and I work with Shirley Collins on her "I'm a Romany Rai" show which we have presented at ours and other folk clubs, art centres and folk festivals, in schools and colleges. At many of these events, traveller groups have turned up and many have spoken to us afterwards saying how proud they were to know that their contribution to British traditional culture was being valued and praised. Never once did we feel that "If that lot decide to start anything, we'll be well outnumbered. Also we're concerned about our cars in the car park... " Never was there a suggestion of anything but an enjoyable evening. Does that folk club organiser allow material learned from traveller sources to be performed at his club? You never know what might 'kick off' if he does! |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: Les in Chorlton Date: 09 Jul 14 - 02:22 PM Perhaps it's a spoof? |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: GUEST,FloraG Date: 09 Jul 14 - 02:25 PM I worked in a school where the only exit was past a church that was used for gypsy funerals. There was never any trouble but they did tend to block the exit home - so we were advised if possible not to plan out exit home at that time. It was just a sensible thing to do. Most teachers tend to work late so we were advised to leave promptly for once if the funeral was after school leaving times. A number of our students were involved in the funerals as it was a school that had a number of gypsy students - and exeats were granted as part of our understanding of their culture. FloraG |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: GUEST,saulgoldie Date: 09 Jul 14 - 02:31 PM I guess it is mostly a lost cause, but they prefer to be called "Roma." Saul |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: GUEST,Raggytash Date: 09 Jul 14 - 02:37 PM Could I suggest, that if the word Gypsy had been omitted, not a word would have been said? |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: Vic Smith Date: 09 Jul 14 - 02:40 PM Could I suggest, that if the word Gypsy had been omitted, not a word would have been said? |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: GUEST,Raggytash Date: 09 Jul 14 - 02:46 PM Vic, am I correct to assume that is a positive reply? |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: Vic Smith Date: 09 Jul 14 - 02:51 PM Yes. Thumbs up indicates that I approve of the statement. |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: GUEST Date: 09 Jul 14 - 03:00 PM @Vic If you have a problem with the advice of the Metropolitan Police then I suggest that you write to the Commissioner or the Mayor. |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: Vic Smith Date: 09 Jul 14 - 03:26 PM The OP said "just outside London". |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: Manitas_at_home Date: 09 Jul 14 - 04:16 PM I have been to a gypsy funeral, of a friend, and it was HUGE. The circular could have been couched in less adversarial terms but the potential for traffic problems is there. There were not that many people at the wake after the funeral I attended so I guess most people went home and I expect that's what will have happened with this funeral. Re the preferred use of the term Roma. Why do we have the Gypsy Council and not the Roma Council or has that been changed now? |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: Vic Smith Date: 09 Jul 14 - 04:42 PM Why do we have the Gypsy Council and not the Roma Council or has that been changed now? I have been to a number of enjoyable events organised by The Romany and Traveller Family History Society. I am a friend of their Vice President and she was a regular at our folk club. In my experience, the term 'Roma' is not used by them and seems to be reserved for those from Eastern Europe. All my working life, I was in Special Education and came into frequent contact with English and Irish traveller families. Back in the 1960s the name 'gypsy' was hated by them and seen as a term of abuse but over the years I saw that change. Partly, I think that they reclaimed the word as a distinguishing mark; I used to hear things like, "We are a gypsy (or sometimes Romany Gypsy) family; nothing to do with that New Age lot." and partly because society has moved on and organisations such as the R&TFHS have encouraged people to take pride in their family roots. |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: Mr Red Date: 09 Jul 14 - 05:26 PM Half of the shops & pubs in Stow on the Wold close for Stow Fair. Slightly different circumstances, but let's face it criminal elements are attracted by large crowds, they can hide there. People will be offended if a similar attribute of unruliness is leveled at a large football crowd. As if Milwall didn't exist. Other drunken fans are available. Never mind any notional quality, quantity matters. |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: Tradsinger Date: 09 Jul 14 - 05:58 PM I agree with the above posters. The folk club circular sounds very racist to me. Try putting the word black or Muslim in the circular and so how that reads! Like some of the above posters, I have mixed a lot with gypsies without any trouble. They are a valid minority group who deserve our respect, not our suspicion, especially on the occasion of a funeral. Tradsinger |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: GUEST,mauvepink Date: 09 Jul 14 - 07:37 PM Good for you for posting this and having the courage of your convictions. Good to them who give support. I am fully in agreement with the points raised... but would not have been brave enough to post it up alone as you did. I commend your courage and those who have spoke up too. mp |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: Georgiansilver Date: 10 Jul 14 - 02:28 AM There is nothing racist in the circular... there is a mention of Gypsies of course but there are two types considered gypsies in the UK. The Romany Gypsies who originated in Romania and the 'travellers' who are largely borne from the 'hippies' and 'beatniks' of the 1960s. The latter from my experience are the ones who cause most trouble. We had a Gypsy funeral here around two years ago (travellers not Romanies) with Ford Transit vans and large engined cars lining the streets and many people decided to stay at home for the day for two reasons... the first that some of them are known to be violent when drunk and others to break into unoccupied houses. I personally believe that people should be allowed to take precautions of any sort they see fit for any reason.... We should be free to decide what we do and when we do it as long as it is within the law..... Sadly laws are changing to take away our basic human rights and will go on doing so as long as people are ready to criticise others for making what they see as sensible decisions! |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: Bonzo3legs Date: 10 Jul 14 - 02:41 AM No me importa un pepino!! |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: GUEST,Musket Date: 10 Jul 14 - 03:01 AM Georgiansilver doesn't mention the indigenous Irish contingent, far more prevalent around our neck of the woods. Part of me agrees that the poster could have mentioned disruption due to large event or other non stigmatising way of putting it. Another part of me used to be in business, manufacturing chiefly construction equipment. Whenever a camp was set up near or on an industrial estate we had a depot on, our premises tended to be coincidentally broken into by non discriminating thieves who usually had a shit on a desk or bench as a leaving present for us. Total coincidence of course. The police never bothered following up coincidences either. People have every right to be concerned where a reputation in the past leads to concern in the present. At the funeral of Tommy Coyne in Doncaster a few years ago, there were over 30 arrests and hundreds of thousands of pounds worth of damage to many premises. Equality includes equal responsibility. To use the facilities of society means to use them responsibly. |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: Jack Campin Date: 10 Jul 14 - 07:11 AM Presumably this circular was created and circulated by one or a few members of the club committee. Rather than blame the whole club for it, why not find who specifically did it, and get a clue inserted in them someplace they won't forget? |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: eddie1 Date: 10 Jul 14 - 07:25 AM Slightly off-topic - I always smile wryly at reference to what we owe travellers by way of music and song. Of course we do owe them a lot and I am proud to have claimed people like Jimmy MacBeth, Belle Stewart and Davy Stewart as friends but: Way back (probably a 100 years or so) I was at the TMSA festival at Blairgowrie. Held at that place and time because of the number of travellers there for "the berry-picking"! I wanted a change from the usual run of concerts and found a pub frequented by travellers. There was what we qualified folkies would refer to as an "Open Mike" I was treated to such gems as Bebop-a-lula, Nobody's Child and Little Bittie Tear! So travellers are not all sainted bearers of the traditional music torch. On the other hand, neither are they all drunken troublemakers - a bit like any other ethnic group! Eddie |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: Vic Smith Date: 10 Jul 14 - 07:52 AM Eddie, I wonder if I have met you! We were at all the festivals at Blairgowrie and then at Kinross. I can remember a conversation with Belle, who we got to know well, about just this subject and she said that she was saddened by the younger people turning away from the traditional culture to Country and Western - which all travellers seemed to love. I tried to give her the example of the fact that young American blacks were turning their backs on their heritage of the blues, which they often called 'Slave Music' and going overboard for Soul music which did not have these unfortunate associations and was regarded as 'cool'. Perhaps it was the same with the Scots travellers' rich cultural heritage. The young travellers associated this with the rejection and prejudice that their 'tinker' parents had suffered and as an alternative were embracing the mainstream. |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: Vic Smith Date: 10 Jul 14 - 08:19 AM Les In Charlton "Perhaps it's a spoof?" Sadly, this is authentic. I receive an email circular from this club every week telling of their events (though I have never been to it or even asked to be on their list) The email address of the sender is the same as all previous communications. Another folk club organiser read this message and sent me a PM correctly naming the club that the message had come from and added that he was not surprised. |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: GUEST,matt milton Date: 10 Jul 14 - 08:20 AM There's also an aspect of the C&W/rock'n'roll influence on traveller music that I really like. Some of the inflections and sliding-up-to-a-note that you hear in the singer Jasper Smith, for instance, strike me as a bit Elvis/Sinatra-ish. It's one of the things that made him a characterful and distinctive singer! |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: The Sandman Date: 10 Jul 14 - 08:37 AM The folk club CONCERNED has a right to reply, some people seem to know which club it is others, including myself do not. my opinion, is that the folk club concerned should be made aware, that this is being discussed on the net and the organiser should have the right to reply or not reply. I therefore think that Vic should contact the organiser directly and let his feelings be known, what is the point of discussing it behind someones back, that will not make the organiser change his/ her mind, yes, it will raise consciousness about traveller prejudice, but will it alter anyones way of thinking? |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: GUEST Date: 10 Jul 14 - 09:48 AM The licensing authority requested the closure not the club. The club decided that the option of a lock in wasn't realistic. The club had to advise their members of the closure and the reason. The email should have been rather more carefully worded but when I receivied it yesterday all I saw was the organiser's frustration rather than racism. Of course if you set out to be offended you will always find something offensive. |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: GUEST Date: 10 Jul 14 - 10:02 AM last minute event cancellations - don't it all usually boil down to institutional paranoid fear of potential risk of insurance claims ??? |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: meself Date: 10 Jul 14 - 10:58 AM From a North American perspective, which I have no reason to believe anyone wants - but sometimes it's helpful to have an outsider's perspective - which the White Southern Americans and the White South Africans never seemed to want either - whenever one of these 'traveller/gypsy' threads appears, I feel like I've fallen back fifty years into the North America of my childhood, when it was common to hear the same sorts of things said about Blacks (or 'Negroes' or 'Coloured People', the polite terms of the time). What it boiled down to was this: 'If THEY wouldn't be so [choose adjective: violent, lazy, stupid, dishonest, immoral, etc.], then we wouldn't be so prejudiced'. Such a statement would usually be preceded or followed by an illustrative anecdote. Gradually, and with much effort, consciousness was raised to the extent that it became generally accepted that racism was wrong in and of itself, and furthermore, had the effect of exacerbating the very anti-social behaviour complained of. Now back to our regular program ..... |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: Jim Carroll Date: 10 Jul 14 - 11:19 AM It is common practice here in The West of Ireland for police to visit all pubs in the area and instruct them to close their doors and only admit people the recognise onto the premises whenever Travellers are in the area. They are not forced to do so, but they are informed that, if there should be any trouble, the police will not respond to any calls for assistance. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: GUEST,Morris-ey Date: 10 Jul 14 - 11:23 AM Whilst the e-mail might verifiably have come from the "Club concerned" has anyone actually checked that the Local Authority made such an order? |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: GUEST Date: 10 Jul 14 - 11:30 AM .. adding another small thread drift...... back in the mid 70s there was at least one cafe in Glastonbury with the stern notice on it's door "No Hippies!!!"..... Glastonnbury ffs... How times have changed... ??? |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: Jack Campin Date: 10 Jul 14 - 11:53 AM It would be a constructive gesture if a delegation from the folk club went to the funeral to dissociate themselves from the local authority's ruling. They might also offer to sing requests. |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: GUEST,Raggytash Date: 10 Jul 14 - 02:24 PM Wonderful idea Jack ...............except the club shut on the day of the funeral .....................Duh!! |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: GUEST,Raggytash Date: 10 Jul 14 - 02:31 PM Apologises Jack, I've realised my contribution sounds patronising. Sorry no offence meant. |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: Vic Smith Date: 10 Jul 14 - 04:24 PM I therefore think that Vic should contact the organiser directly and let his feelings be known, I have, of course, been in contact with him and he with me. |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: Nigel Parsons Date: 10 Jul 14 - 04:44 PM Nothing new then: Surrey 19/11/2009 "Many landlords said they decided to close the pubs saying they acted on advice given to them by Surrey Police. Keith Huddlestone, the manager of The Running Horse, in Bridge Street, Leatherhead, claims he had a warning from police about the funeral." Henley 16/12/13 Conflicting reports: The pub, which normally opens at 11am, stayed closed until 4.30pm when the travellers had gone. Manager Joanne Burton said: "The decision to close was just a precaution because in the past we have had a little bit of trouble with travellers. "The police and the council let us know what was happening but it was our choice whether or not to open The Flowing Spring in Playhatch also closed amid fears the travellers might look for another pub to visit. Nick Willson, who owns the pub with his wife Hazel Lucas, said: "The information we got from police and pubs in Caversham was that there would be about 1,000 travellers and it would be advisable to close. Warrington 14/1/13"The road will be closed from King Edward Street to Padgate lane. Access will be maintained for residents and local businesses during this time although pubs have been told to close" It seems sometimes pubs are told to close, sometimes they are advised to, and sometimes they are left with the choice. Are the police abrogating their responsibility? Either there will be no trouble (pubs can stay open), or there is a small chance of trouble (police should handle it), or police believe that trouble is unavoidable, and should deal with it as they would any other event (Football match, protest rally) where they are expecting problems. What is the betting that the police/licensing authority's advice to these pubs is rarely in writing, so that they cannot be effectively quoted. |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: BobKnight Date: 10 Jul 14 - 07:57 PM Don't make the mistake of thinking "travellers," are gypsies, and please don't confuse REAL travellers, with New Age Travellers of the late sixties, seventies. The name, "Gypsy/Travellers" is merely a term of convenience for the authorites, a pigoen hole. Recent programmes on TV, referring to gypsy this and gypsy that are invariably about Irish travellers, with not a gypsy in sight, yet another term of convenience for the ignorant. |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: Jack Campin Date: 10 Jul 14 - 08:16 PM New Age travellers are just as real as any other human beings, and they are NOT a legitimate target for persecution just because they fail to be Gypsies or Scottish Highland travellers. "Go harass that other lot instead" isn't even going to work as a strategy for defending Gypsies' rights. |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: vectis Date: 10 Jul 14 - 11:52 PM I used to work in a town where the school had a large (very large) number of Romany, Irish traveller and Roma children from the locality. Whenever there was a funeral for any of these groups the town ground to a standstill because of the huge numbers that would turn out to said funeral. If staff wanted to get home they had to go out of the other end of town. I seem to remember that the schools and pubs were all notified (not warned) of the time and place of the funerals so that those who wanted to close could do so. Nearer London I can imagine that traffic chaos would ensue, people trying to get places would be delayed and get frustrated and a few hotheads could easily start an affray which opportunists could quickly inflame into real trouble. Adding alcohol into the mix just makes the likelihood of trouble greater. Folk organiser sounds pee'd off rather than racist in this instance. |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: meself Date: 11 Jul 14 - 01:53 AM No, he doesn't sound racist - he just sounds pee'd off at a certain racial/cultural minority. |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: The Sandman Date: 11 Jul 14 - 03:25 AM "From: Vic Smith - PM Date: 10 Jul 14 - 04:24 PM I therefore think that Vic should contact the organiser directly and let his feelings be known, I have, of course, been in contact with him and he with me." "why, of course",are we supposed to be mind readers. Vic, in my opinion contacting the organiser is the ONLY correct thing to do |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: GUEST,Desi C Date: 11 Jul 14 - 03:26 AM Umm, yes perhaps it does have a racist tint about it. On the other hand there is good reason why most pubs (certainly in my area Wolverhampton)display signs saying 'NO GYPSIES' The reason is there are a few Gypsy camps in the area and several pubs lost their licences due to Gypsy Violence. A fol club I was a member of had Gypsis regularly come in, in just 3 3weeks they caused so much trouble it had to close. Finally please don't equate Irish people with Gypsies/Romanies. I am Irish, and they are much LESS tolerated back home, their accents are I assure you the only Irish thing about them. This is not a racist rant against them, it's just some facts based on persnal experience. Gypsies seem to have an inherent problem with alcohol, the medical profession would bear that out and police do frequently warn pubs about Gypsy events |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: Jim Carroll Date: 11 Jul 14 - 03:28 AM "Don't make the mistake of thinking "Travellers," are gypsies, and please don't confuse REAL Travellers, with New Age Travellers of the late sixties, seventies." Not that it matters, even if it were true - they are all human beings and are being discriminated against. The supposed difference between Traveller groups have long been used to scapegoat 'not-real' Travellers. Changes of life style due to urbanization, abandonment of old customs, intermarriage.... and a host of other reasons, have made the 'difference' between all those on the road indistinguishable to the point of non-existence. Even 'real Gypsies' have been persecuted because they fail to live up to the romanticised George Borrow image of what Gypsies are supposed to be and how they should live and look. "No, he doesn't sound racist " I have been to dozens of Traveller weddings, funerals and christenings and have never at any time seen any more trouble than you might expect on a boisterous stag night or hen party. The fact that Travellers are picked out for discrimination makes this exactly what it is, a racist attack on a cultural minority. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: johncharles Date: 11 Jul 14 - 05:47 AM I doubt that the police would concede they were picking on a cultural minority. As with many events I suspect the police look at evidence of previous behaviour and make a risk assessment on the strength of this evidence. A classic example of this will be the championship football match between Leeds and Milwall. I have no doubt restrictions will be in force, on the basis of previous behaviour. If police were not to give advice and trouble occurred no doubt they would be pilloried in the press for neglecting public safety. john |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: BobKnight Date: 11 Jul 14 - 06:29 AM My post was intended to point out that not all travelling people are the same. Travellers are not gypsies and vice versa, although they share a nomadic, but dying lifestyle. |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: bubblyrat Date: 11 Jul 14 - 08:39 AM I used to live near the New Forest , a traditional home for Gypsies ,as we were wont to call them ( ......".play with the Roma in the wood " doesn't quite have the same ring to it ); I was interested in their historical "stewardship" of the Forest , and even had a namesake , "Brusher" Mills , who had lived in a woodpile,and caught adders which he sold to medical researchers to fund his far from moderate alcohol consumption ! I also learned of their attachment ,if that's the right word ,to the Gorse / Furze bushes, the dead wood of which really IS a good fuel! But then,whilst working as the Stage Door Keeper at The REgent Centre in Christchurch, I was rudely surprised to witness the APPALLING and lawless behaviour of a whole convoy of Irish "travellers" who invaded the theatre car-park in their unlicensed,untaxed vehicles, let their children defaecate and urinate opely on the ground,and went round testing the fuel-tank cap on every vehicle and dismantling the boundary fence ! The police didn't want to know. I complained to my employer (Christchurch Council ) who threatened me with disciplinary action if I said ONE WORD against the "travellers" who , I quote ,were " an ethnic minority group with their own culture and language " -----I pointed out that I, too, was a member of such a group ( The English !!) which didn't go down too well ! But as for being "Gypsies",these dreadful Irish people bore no resemblance at all .Eventually they left and set up shop in .....guess where ?? YES !! The Council Office Car Park ; HOORAY I cried !!! |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: Jim Carroll Date: 11 Jul 14 - 08:45 AM "As with many events I suspect the police look at evidence of previous behaviour" You mean if a rowdy group of footballers made a nuisance of themselves, then all football supporters would be automatically banned - sorry John - doesn't happen. Travellers we knew in London in the 70s and 80s campaigned to have 'no Travellers served', which were common in those days, removed from pubs - the campaign was largely successful in having them made illegal, but nowadays the discrimination exists in different forms, the end result being the same. Automatically assuming that all Travellers are troublemakers is every bit as racist as claiming that all black men have big willies and lust after white women. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: Vic Smith Date: 11 Jul 14 - 10:32 AM I believe that I am a fair-minded person so I must say that I was encouraged by the subsequent message from the organiser which includes these statements - "My e-mail was sent in haste to try to prevent our members travelling unnecessarily and reading it again this morning I can see that some of it was badly worded." and elsewhere "I had no intention of maligning gypsies in general." and again " I believe that all people should be treated equally regardless of race, religion, orientation, disability, age etc., and I believe that I do treat people so." Well, good, that's a great improvement on the first circular. He even has the grace to say that the slow pace of the cortege and the long traffic delay was being directed by the police though he did not realise it at the time |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: meself Date: 11 Jul 14 - 10:52 AM Jim - I believe you missed the irony in my post of 10 Jul 14 - 10:58 AM .... ************************************ I'm wondering where all those Mudcatters are who declare themselves such vigorous enemies of racism and bigotry ... ? |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: Tradsinger Date: 11 Jul 14 - 05:44 PM I'm sorry, but the organiser's explanation still does not wash with me. Does he mean that the pub would close for any big funeral, or for any large sporting event or street carnival etc in the area, for example, or is he specifically singling out gypsy funerals? Would he refer to other groups as "that lot"? If the police had specific information that there would be trouble, then so be it, but "trouble is anticipated" sounds like paranoia to me. It's a big event. So, it's up to the police to manage it, like they would any other big event. Tradsinger |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: selby Date: 11 Jul 14 - 06:03 PM What i find interesting is how we immediately fall into camps the for,s and the against,s what we seem to forget is like every race and creed there are good and bad. Experience tells what happened in the past then dictates the future.I live in a rural area and had a work mate who was the best mate a man could have BUT put a pint down his neck instant nut case and you did not want to be in his company Keith |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: Jim Carroll Date: 12 Jul 14 - 02:50 AM "Jim - I believe you missed the irony in my post of 10 Jul 14 - 10:58 AM ..." meself Didn't mis the point - missed the posting altogether - am in the middle of a week-long music event and snatching a peep into this when I can. Take your point entirely The attitude towards Travellers in Ireland is now being referred to openly as 'ethnic cleansing' in the press and during radio phone-ins. In Britain, Travellers have a degree of protection from harassment and prejudice under the law, though it has been seriously undermined by all Governments, from and including John Major's. Here in Ireland, they have no such protection; prejudice right though Irish society and includes the police, judiciary and Government bodies. A few years ago, a Traveller caught trespassing was killed by a farmer (shot, beaten with a stick whilst lying wounded, then, after the farmer went indoors to reload his gun, dispatched by a final shot to the head) At the trial, the farmer fully expected to be jailed for his crime, he said later he had made arrangements to cover his inevitable sentencing. He was acquitted - you can't say it clearer than that! Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: GUEST Date: 12 Jul 14 - 09:50 AM Jim, At the risk of being pedantic, could you name the case involved and the year. Thanks |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: meself Date: 12 Jul 14 - 10:32 AM Actually, Jim, your quote was from my post - not that it really matters. ****************** GUEST: " ... Tony Martin, the farmer, who was jailed for shooting dead a burglar who broke into his isolated home in Norfolk in 1999." |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: Jim Carroll Date: 12 Jul 14 - 11:21 AM "Actually, Jim, your quote was from my post " This was the case I was referring to. McNally was the farmer, John Ward was his victim. Jim Carroll Traveller murder |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: meself Date: 12 Jul 14 - 01:50 PM Whoops! Sorry, I assumed it was that other case that was the subject of some interest here (Mudcat) awhile back. (As to the quote - a lot of crossed wires here I'm not going to try to untangle.) |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: GUEST Date: 12 Jul 14 - 02:35 PM Fair enough Jim, I can see where you are coming from. I would like to see the remainder of the trial. From that report it would seem like a total miscarriage of justice. |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: GUEST Date: 12 Jul 14 - 02:57 PM Jim, I have read further on Wikipedia (not the best source I realise)and can understand the valid argument for a conviction. I also realise that McNally probably thought he could not rely on the Garda for realistic support and thought to take the law into his own hands. I can have a degree of sympathy for his position and sadly given a similar situation may have even reacted violently myself. |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: Jim Carroll Date: 12 Jul 14 - 03:31 PM The killing was an execution pure and simple. Ward was shot while fleeing from the premises, he had been wounded and severely beaten - totally incapacitated. McNally went into the house, reloaded his gun, came out and shot him in cold blood. Had his victim been anybody other than a Traveller, McNally would have been banged up for murder. A not unsimilar case happened around the same time in our Market town of Ennis. Two groups of youths, travellers and settled lads, got into a shouting match (no more than that) on the main street. One of the settled lads went home, got a knife, returned to the scene and stabbed an 18 year old Traveller lad to death - no dispute of any of this. The lad was tried for manslaughter and received piddling sentence considering the crime The killer was a policeman's son Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: GUEST Date: 12 Jul 14 - 04:01 PM Hi Jim, Truly shocking, however I would think similar evasions of justice have occurred in each group, both settled and travellers. |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: Jim Carroll Date: 13 Jul 14 - 02:06 AM You and everybody else knows damn well that if it had been settled people involved in these incidents and not Travellers, both of the culprits would have been banged up for their crimes. As it was their victims "got what was coming to them" on both occasions!! Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: GUEST Date: 13 Jul 14 - 02:49 AM Like I said Jim, Truly shocking but similar evasions of justice have occurred in each group, both settled and travellers. Not just on one side or the other. If you want to see justice done on behalf on the Traveller (which no-one should object to) you have to see justice done on behalf of the remainder of the population. |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: Jim Carroll Date: 13 Jul 14 - 04:12 AM Come off it - justice has always weighed against Travellers - at the present time by the local popul;ation as well as the police and judiciary. Some Christmases ago, a Travelling family here were burned out of their home by an accidental caravan fire (these fires are not always accidental). Totally out of character, our Council agreed to house them over the holiday period in an empty house. Local people set up a banner carrying picket outside their home over several days, demanding their removal and chanting "Travellers out, residents in". The couple and their seven children were going to brazen it out due to the extremely cold weather, until the woman was stopped while shopping in town and told that if they didn't make themselves scarce they would be needing the services of the fire department again. They spent their Christmas in a combination of a borrowed touring caravan, a small van and a tent made from a canvas sheet down at the local beach car park. Travellers are in the process of being ethnically cleansed in these islands; within a decade or so they will have disappeared altogether from our roads if the process isn't quickly reversed - if it is not already too late. Ignoring and denying the facts of what is happening to them makes you part of that 'cleansing' process. We've been through this sort of discussion so many times before. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: GUEST Date: 13 Jul 14 - 04:48 AM Please do not twist my words, which experience tells me you are apt to do when someone puts another side to a discussion. I am neither denying or ignoring the facts of anything. I clearly stated what had happened in the cases you mentioned was not acceptable. Justice abjectly failed the travellers on those, and probably many other, occasions However justice has to be equal for all of society not just one section that you have decided to champion. Finally do not accuse me of racism merely because I question your assessment of any given situation. That is unacceptable. |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: Jim Carroll Date: 13 Jul 14 - 05:58 AM "However justice has to be equal for all of society" Yes it has, and these examples and the general situation show it is not the case with Travellers Ward was killed when a farmer administered a coup de gráce while he was crawling away wounded - the defence was that the farmer was in fear of his safety - he was acquitted. The policeman's son was tried for manslaughter after it had been established that he walked home, armed himself with a knife and returned to settle a shouting argument. I the prevailing atmosphere towards Travellers here, the conclusion is that both results were due to the victims in each case being Travellers - these are not isolated incidents, but regular occurrences which I have been aware of throughout the the forty years I have been associated with Travellers - it is pretty well accepted here that this is the case. I don't know who you are, so I don't know if we have argued on those subject before, but I have argued with others proffering the same arguments. My "you" was generally aimed and not at you specifically. I approach these arguments with some degree of experience of the prejudice that is and has always been adopted to Travellers. I followed both of these cases with some interest at the time they happened and was actually involved in the incident of the family being driven out. Probably the most interesting aspect of all of them, the verdicts of the court case being a foregone conclusion, were the phone-in discussions that took place afterwards - the general wave of hatred towards Travellers was chilling. Failing to take these incidents out of the context surround them is to miss the point. I repeat - the verdicts in both of them would have been very different if the victims had not been Travellers, especially taking into consideration the proximity of both of them. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: GUEST Date: 13 Jul 14 - 06:15 AM Which part of my agreement with you do you not understand. I have stated quite clearly, in words that most people would comprehend, that the examples you gave are not acceptable. I have also stated that justice needs to be equitable to all in society. However you still infer that I am racist. I object most strongly to your assertion and would expect an apology from most people. Whether such would be coming from yourself is doubtful. |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: Jim Carroll Date: 13 Jul 14 - 06:40 AM "However you still infer that I am racist" And i point out that my accusation was a general one - not aimed at you specifically - which part of that do you not understand? "My "you" was generally aimed and not at you specifically." No apology needed - just a reiteration of my explanation Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: GUEST Date: 13 Jul 14 - 06:58 AM "Ignoring or denying the facts of what is happening to them makes YOU part of that 'cleansing' process" That to me looks exactly like an accusation of racism on my part. I object most strongly. I would expect an apology, not an attempt to avoid such with prevarication. |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: Jim Carroll Date: 13 Jul 14 - 07:04 AM Tell you what You have cast doubt throughout this argument that either of these cases had anything to do with the victims being Travellers It was not my intention to specify you as being a racist in regard to Travellers, but I'm happy to apologise if you are prepared to say that, in the light of the overall evidence, it probably was If not, I think my point stands that "Ignoring and denying the facts of what is happening to them makes you part of that 'cleansing' process." Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: GUEST Date: 13 Jul 14 - 07:24 AM Jim, Throughout my posts I have supported your argument that the travellers were not given the justice that we should all be able to expect, irrespective of our part in society. Yet you have again made the allegation that I by "ignoring or denying the facts of what is happening to them makes you part of the 'cleansing' process" Again I say you should have the decency to make an apology without obfuscation. |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: Jim Carroll Date: 13 Jul 14 - 08:41 AM Last post seems to have gone missing "I have supported your argument that the travellers were not given the justice" Throughout these you have cast doubt on whether these cases are connected in any way to the extreme prejudice that exists against Travellers here, and more-or-less everywhere else " similar evasions of justice have occurred in each group, both settled and travellers" That, as far as I can see, continues to be your case. My accusation was a general one aimed at those who either support that prejudice or refuse to recognise its existence. If I worded my statement as to leave the impression that it included you, of course I apologise; I was then and remain unclear on your own view on these particular cases. Whenever these arguments arise I'm always reminded of Jeannie Robertson's wry comment that she now had an O.B.E. to hang on her wall, but she or her family still couldn't get served in many of her country's pubs or shops. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: GUEST Date: 13 Jul 14 - 08:55 AM Jim, I have stated, twice, that the McNally case was "truly shocking" I have stated that I support your argument regarding the "justice" meted out to the Travelling community. I have stated it is not acceptable. What more can I say to convince you that I believe Travellers are, on many occasions, badly treated by the justice system. I cannot comprehend how you could find my attitude to these cases ambiguous. Finally Thank you for the apology. |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: Jim Carroll Date: 13 Jul 14 - 09:05 AM "truly shocking" - "justice" meted out to the Travelling community", two unconnected statements, both go without saying and unless they are addressed to specific issues, pretty meaningless in the light of this discussion. My apology was a qualified one and will remain so. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: GUEST Date: 13 Jul 14 - 09:14 AM What can I say but ........... astonishing arrogance |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: Vic Smith Date: 13 Jul 14 - 09:47 AM Could I suggest that you two get one another's email addresses and carry on you your nit-picking semantics using that method? You may find your interchanges - 21 posts of them so far - fascinating, but I can assure you that there are others of us who find them less than compelling. |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: Jim Carroll Date: 13 Jul 14 - 11:06 AM Sorry Vic - have said allI have to say on this matter Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: Fergie Date: 13 Jul 14 - 11:42 AM I'd support Jim Carroll's case. Travellers rarely get an even break in the mainstream media. And it is my experience that you don't have to probe to far into the attitude of many people who profess themselves to be tolerant, liberal and progressive to find deep-down racist opinions. Why does Mudcat tolerate anonymous GUEST posters to indulge in trolling, windup and baiting exercises? Please Mudcat make a stipulation backed by a software sentinel, that ensures that non-members are allowed to post once and once only to a post. That alone would go a long way to bringing a lot of this abuse of these threads to an end. Fergus |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: Vic Smith Date: 13 Jul 14 - 11:53 AM I'd support Jim Carroll's case I also support Jim on this matter and I have sent him a PM explaining why I posted as I did at 13 Jul 14 - 09:47 AM |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: GUEST Date: 13 Jul 14 - 02:08 PM I too support Jim's case. As I have said from the outset. However I dotake objection when it is suggested that I am racist, especially by someone who by his own comments on previous a thread is "guilty" of racism himself. I refer to his comment on 11 January 2013 AT 04.04am when he stated(and I quote)"I know that rubbish is only part of the traveller problem". My last post on that subject (Thread Title 'No travellers' common UK sign) was on the same day at 02.23pm. It was an observation that Jim was as guilty, as many of, are of racism without meaning to be. I do not doubt his care of, and concern for, the travelling community but I do strongly object when he accuses me of racism. |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: Tradsinger Date: 13 Jul 14 - 02:15 PM Without wishing to prolong the topic longer, I just want to say one thing. There seems to be a trend in humanity to look down on certain groups of people different from your group. These might be gypsies, or indeed Jews, Muslims or Christians. They might be immigrants or foreigners, or even a different colour from you. So you start to compile anecdotes of their bad/unsociable/ unacceptable behaviour, as they are somehow inferior to you, not conforming to your norms. This then seems to justify your treating them poorly, after all they are only gypsies....Jews....Romanians... etc. All people should be treated equally and fairly, that's all I say. Tradsinger |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: Fergie Date: 13 Jul 14 - 02:27 PM GUEST. If you are a member of Mudcat then please sign in. If you are not a member please signup. Otherwise go someplace else where you can flame away to your heart content. Goodbye |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: GUEST Date: 13 Jul 14 - 02:40 PM Fergie, I am a member of Mudcat and had no wish to be drawn into a personal "battle". However when someone who does not know me, my background, lineage, colour, creed, ethnic persuasion or religion suggests that I am racist I take exception. As I would suggest most people would. I have not put my name to my comments as even I understand they are tedious but I do retain the right to defend myself from thoughtless assertions from third parties who pontificate their "superior" knowledge of all things relating to the Travelling community. That's me done, Mr Carroll can have the floor to himself. |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: Musket Date: 13 Jul 14 - 03:11 PM Too true. All people need to be not only treated equally but but treat others equally too. There is a reason why crime rates go up over a only a few post code areas when travellers are camping locally. There is a reason why break ins to the industrial units we used to operate from from were only broken into when there was a camp nearby. There was a reason why police refused to investigate whenever travellers were nearby as it wasn't worth the effort. You will never get the vast majority of people seeing travellers as equal stakeholders whilst ever a large number of travellers use society without contributing. Uncomfortable truth, but there it is. |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: Vic Smith Date: 13 Jul 14 - 03:31 PM I do retain the right to defend myself from thoughtless assertions from third parties who pontificate their "superior" knowledge of all things relating to the Travelling community. Thank you GUEST for taking so much trouble, time and space to defend your good name.... even though we have no idea what that name is. |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: mayomick Date: 13 Jul 14 - 06:21 PM not me I'm with JC |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: GUEST, Guest Liberation Army Date: 13 Jul 14 - 06:43 PM "Without wishing to prolong the topic longer, I just want to say one thing. There seems to be a trend in humanity to look down on certain groups of people different from your group. These might be gypsies, or indeed Jews, Muslims or Christians. They might be immigrants or foreigners, or even a different colour from you. So you start to compile anecdotes of their bad/unsociable/ unacceptable behaviour, as they are somehow inferior to you, not conforming to your norms. This then seems to justify your treating them poorly, after all they are only gypsies....Jews....Romanians... etc. All people should be treated equally and fairly, that's all I say." Spot on Tradsinger - excellent post !!! Now, in the context of mudcat, in place of the listed down trodden & unjustly despised minorites - substitute the subgroup Guests... oh dear.... "Why does Mudcat tolerate anonymous GUEST posters to indulge in trolling, windup and baiting exercises? Please Mudcat make a stipulation backed by a software sentinel, that ensures that non-members are allowed to post once and once only to a post. That alone would go a long way to bringing a lot of this abuse of these threads to an end." Fergus, please consider Trad's pertinent contribution. |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: GUEST,Guest Liberation Army Date: 13 Jul 14 - 06:50 PM BTW - The Guest Liberation Army does not condone acts of extremism in defense of the international rights and dignity of all Guests. Please contact your nearest Rock Against Guestism organizer for further information. |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: Stilly River Sage Date: 13 Jul 14 - 07:20 PM GUEST,Guest Liberation Army you're taking liberties with the number of guest names you use. Choose one and stick with it. There's a nice guest . . . SRS |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: GUEST,Guest Liberation Army Date: 13 Jul 14 - 09:27 PM Hello, Stilly River Sage .. of course it's 'me'.. that should be pretty obvious to some regular mudcatters by now. Though, I am trying to stick to a one 'jokey name' per thread rule. That's only fair and sensible for clarity of communication. But, as I hope you understand , the underlying serious message of what I have to say [mostly expressed in irreverent daft humour] is consistent from thread to thread. I thank you for a little patience and toleration. After all, for some folks, the message always matters more than the messenger conveying it. If that makes me sound like a bit of an old idealist tosser, well sorry, I probably am... |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: Jim Carroll Date: 14 Jul 14 - 02:32 AM "You will never get the vast majority of people seeing travellers as equal stakeholders whilst ever a large number of travellers use society without contributing. " You cannot demand that someone contributes to a society that they are not allowed to be part of. Travellers are denied the basic rights of existence - a secure place to stop, clean, drinkable water, sanitation... the things we take for granted - sort those things out and you will then have cause to complain that they don't contribute - it really is as simple as that. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: GUEST,Old Folker Date: 14 Jul 14 - 04:53 AM I think it is quite possible that any useful information regarding the music and lifestyle of Gypsy folk or Travellers of any persuasion has been faithfully recorded at Cecil Sharpe House years ago. The remnants of the true travellers are fading as they are absorbed into the wider society. In my childhood days, visitations from folk selling clothes pegs and "Lucky White Heather" was the norm. As farming becomes more technical, the need for mobile workers is now mainly taken up by people from outside the UK. Most of them return home after a well paid season on various crops. As the benefit net tightens, many will find the attraction of the free and airey life on the road less attractive. |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: TheSnail Date: 14 Jul 14 - 05:54 AM Travellers are denied the basic rights of existence - a secure place to stop, clean, drinkable water, sanitation... Bridies Tan Site Assessment for Lewes District Council |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: Jim Carroll Date: 14 Jul 14 - 06:40 AM Sorry Bryan - don't get your point. There are sites legal sites available for less than a quarter of the number of Travelling families on the road today which means that over three quarters of the Travelling population have no place to stop. Idyllic sites such as those pictured are few and far between with usually oversubscribed waiting lists. At one time, Travellers camped illegally were entitled to be given fourteen days notice before eviction and all boroughs were obliged to provise stopping places for a pitiful number of Travelling families (though ecery council was entitled to apply for exemption. John Major's Government did away with that law, causing a panic throughout the Travelling community. Here in Ireland, Travellers stopping illegally are liable to having their trailers seized, leaving them homeless and forcing them into state accommodation (if available) Where sites such as yours (though nowhere near idyllic) are proposed, any attempts to build them are met with massive resistance by locals, using both legal means, threats, and vandalism to ascertain that they are not established - several politicians go to the polls on an anti-Traveller ticket and the police usually do their bit to ascertain that Travellers are not made welcome. Unfortunately, as with folk-clubs, the world doesn't start and end at Lewes. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: Vic Smith Date: 14 Jul 14 - 08:07 AM mayomick wrote - not me I'm with JC I think that you missed the ironic nature on my comment, mayomick. I will not get into a slanging match on Mudcat, but I am not above the use of sarcasm. |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: Richard Mellish Date: 14 Jul 14 - 08:26 AM Musket reports increased crime when travellers are around, and says "You will never get the vast majority of people seeing travellers as equal stakeholders whilst ever a large number of travellers use society without contributing. " And Jim responds "You cannot demand that someone contributes to a society that they are not allowed to be part of. Travellers are denied the basic rights of existence - a secure place to stop, clean, drinkable water, sanitation... the things we take for granted - sort those things out and you will then have cause to complain that they don't contribute - it really is as simple as that." And there we have it: it's a vicious circle. Perhaps the blame is more on one side in England and more on the other in Ireland. And there may be differences between different groups of travellers, both in how they are treated and in how they behave. But overall the picture is of each side (or, more correctly, some individuals on each side) regarding all of the other side with contempt and treating them accordingly. Breaking a vicious circle is difficult. Overcoming prejudice is difficult. There are plenty of similar and worse cases elsewhere in the world. I heard a horror story from a chap who comes from Iran. When he was living in Bradford he befriended and helped an elderly English woman. Then one day one of his Pakistani neighbours told him off for doing so and said that the woman had no right to be living in a Moslem area. |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: Fergie Date: 14 Jul 14 - 08:40 AM MOVING ON SONG (Ewan MacColl and Peggy Seeger) Born in the middle of an afternoon In a horse-drawn wagon on the old A5 The big twelve wheeler shook my bed You can't stop here the policeman said You better get born someplace else So move along, get along, move along, get along, Go, move, shift Born in the tatie lifting time In an old bow tent in a tatie field The farmer said, The work's all done It's time that you were moving on. So move along, get along, move along, get along, Go, move, shift Born in a wagon on a building site Where the ground was rutted by the trailer's wheels The local people said to me, You'll lower the price of property. So move along, get along, move along, get along, Go, move, shift Born at the back of a blackthorn hedge When the white hoarfrost lay all around No wise men came bearing gifts Instead the order came to shift. So move along, get along, move along, get along, Go, move, shift The winter sky was hung with stars And one shone brighter than the rest The wise men came so stern and strict And brought the order to evict. So move along, get along, move along, get along, Go, move, shift Wagon, tent, or trailer born Last week, last year, or in far off days Born here or a thousand miles away There's always men nearby who'll say. So move along, get along, move along, get along, Go, move, shift. |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: TheSnail Date: 14 Jul 14 - 08:44 AM Travellers are denied the basic rights of existence I take it you didn't follow my second link, Jim. The world doesn't start and end in the west of Ireland either. |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: Jim Carroll Date: 14 Jul 14 - 08:56 AM "Perhaps the blame is more on one side in England " Not really Richard - British Governments, (mainly labour) following intense protesting, in the sixties, often assisted by students, took steps to at least pay lip-service to the problem. The Major Government virtually dismantled those measures. Crime figures then showed that the overwhelming offences by Travellers was petty theft and having no tax and insurance for vehicles. Urbanaisation has led to Traveller youth becoming involved in settled crimes, drugs being a case in point. We understand that many of the inter-Traveller disputes surfacing at present are often directly connected with the shortage of sites - families having nowhere to stop resenting those who have. The tragedy of all this is the cost of providing halting sites, which seem to work fairly successfully, is far less than forcing Travellers onto the roads. I smiled at Bryan's 'site assessment for Lewes Council. Hackney Council, an area we worked in for fifteen years, drew up such a plan shortly after we began work there. It remained an "assessment" throughout the time we visited the area and was abandoned shortly after we stopped, without a yard of concrete ever having been laid. I'm sure it will gall many here to learn that the greatest progress in assisting Travellers was carried out by the London County Council under the leadership of Ken Livingstone (until it was 'democratically' abolished by General Pinochet's girlfriend, Lady T). One of the worst areas of London was Westminster, under Lady Porter, who - during her time off from moving council tenants out of their homes in order to sell them off to the wealthy (she housed them in asbestos-filled unwanted slums 'temporarily') - fulfilled her legal obligation by setting up a Travellers site under the Westway flyover, where it was found that the air pollution from lead-filled petrol fumes was the highest in Europe. Good days!1 Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: Richard Bridge Date: 14 Jul 14 - 09:09 AM Snail - I don't follow your point about your second link. Can you state it, succinctly, please? |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: TheSnail Date: 14 Jul 14 - 09:34 AM Hackney Council - Equality and Diversity - Gypsy, Roma and Traveller Communitie |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: TheSnail Date: 14 Jul 14 - 09:51 AM Richard Bridge Snail - I don't follow your point about your second link. Can you state it, succinctly, please? Jim responded as if Bridies Tan, mentioned in my first link, was the only site in Lewes District and ignored the extensive work on finding suitable sites carried out bu the Council as described in my second link. |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: Jim Carroll Date: 14 Jul 14 - 10:30 AM Bryan I'm sure your Hackney link had a point - it won't open for me. I know there was some good will there - mainly from Labour politicians, but no action up to the mid nineties apart from assistance in making the 'no Traveller signs' illegal - much appreciated. We learned of an hilarious event which, unfortunately we didn't witness. Mikeen McCarthy, a Traveller friend of long-standing, along with other local Travellers, started up a collection for the 'Save the Children' fund, and managed to raise a fair amount of money for it, which they sent off. In return, Mikeen received a thank-you note along with a request that their President, Princess Anne, wished to visit the site and thank him, a organiser, personally; they were stopping in a small rented yard surrounded by a high, barred fence adjacent to Mare Street, at the time. H.R.H. arrived on cue, along with two 'suits' as bodyguards, the gate was locked and the 'suits' stood on guard at the gate. Unbeknownst, the Mayor of Hackney had got wind of the visit and, as there was an election due, decided to contact the press and make a photo-opportunity of the visit. He turned up at the site, only to be given his marching orders by the 'suits', so he walked around the fence until he spotted a small child, who he instructed to tell 'the lady' that the Mayor would like a word with her. The child went off, opened the door of Mikeen's caravan and shouted, "Eh, missus, someone wants to talk to you". The incident was reported in The Hackney Gazette, late tha week under the headline, "Eh Missus" - we still have a photo of Mikeen and H.R.H. Mikeen's family was among those forced to flee London shortly afterwards, following John Major's abandoning the legal obligation to provide sites - they ended up in a field outside Thetford. Good days! Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: TheSnail Date: 14 Jul 14 - 10:46 AM Sorry about that my blunder - Hackney Council - Equality and Diversity - Gypsy, Roma and Traveller Communitie but no action up to the mid nineties ...er...? |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: Jim Carroll Date: 14 Jul 14 - 11:08 AM Bryan - I have no intention of making this another of our arfuments - the 'pitches' in Hackney are overwhelmingly yards with a single stand pipe and shared toilet - compare it to your tree-lined Nirvanah. The Hackney report mentions 15 Travellers accommodated for, there were around 500 when we worked there - it post dates 2010, possibly ten years later, 25 years later than it drew up the plns I mentioned which were similar to the one you produced for Lewes. And hackney was far in advance of all the other London Boroughs. Thanks for making my point - nuff sed, by me anyway. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: TheSnail Date: 14 Jul 14 - 11:49 AM Wonderful. I prove he's lying and he declares victory. Have it as you want to Jim. The best of luck in your campaign to promote hatred between the settled and traveller communities. |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: Vic Smith Date: 14 Jul 14 - 02:41 PM he declares victory. For this thread, victory is not achieved by Bryan or Jim winning their argument on Mudcat. I stated my reasons and concerns in my opening post. Victory as far as this thread is concerned would be achieved if - a) the club organiser is made to re-consider his attitudes and the way he expresses himself in his circulars. b) Consciousness is raised of the institutional racism still manifesting itself in the knee-jerk reaction of the police/licensing authorities which runs "Gypsy Funeral...Close the pubs" As far as a) is concerned, I reported that the folk club organiser circulated that his first message was "badly worded". That's a start; he has been made to think about what he said and is likely to give more thought to public statements in the future. As far as b) is concerned the admirable post by Nigel Parsons back on 10 Jul 14 - 04:44 PM demonstrates that the incident in question is far from isolated and everyone who has read this thread and read Nigel's links will be more aware of this wrong in our society and should have their thinking and opinions influenced by it. Very small steps, I'll admit - but this is only an internet chat group that is not widely read or quoted. |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: Jim Carroll Date: 14 Jul 14 - 02:52 PM Can I suggest that any steps in matters such a these should be taken should be taken in consultation with any Travellers who might be affected - they are aware of the problems far more than the rest of us and prefer to handle them i their own way As you say - not a matter of victory - I've dealt with my side of our dispute offline. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: TheSnail Date: 14 Jul 14 - 04:00 PM I've dealt with my side of our dispute offline. Really? I haven't replied yet. Sorry, Vic. I simply replied to a sweeping statement by Jim with some actual facts and it escalated from there. |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: GUEST Date: 14 Jul 14 - 05:40 PM Vic, did you ever have the courtesy to contact ther club organise in question? We know from his subsequent email that you posted here without doing so. |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: Vic Smith Date: 14 Jul 14 - 06:00 PM Yes, see my post 10 Jul 14 - 04:24 PM and I have tried her to express satisfaction at his response. |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: Vic Smith Date: 14 Jul 14 - 06:01 PM "her"?.... I mean "here". |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: meself Date: 14 Jul 14 - 11:49 PM I must commend Vic Smith on his measured response to a gratuitously insulting post from an anonymous guest. |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: The Sandman Date: 15 Jul 14 - 06:15 AM From: Vic Smith - PM Date: 14 Jul 14 - 02:41 PM he declares victory. For this thread, victory is not achieved by Bryan or Jim winning their argument on Mudcat. I stated my reasons and concerns in my opening post. Victory as far as this thread is concerned would be achieved if - a) the club organiser is made to re-consider his attitudes and the way he expresses himself in his circulars. b) Consciousness is raised of the institutional racism still manifesting itself in the knee-jerk reaction of the police/licensing authorities which runs "Gypsy Funeral...Close the pubs" As far as a) is concerned, I reported that the folk club organiser circulated that his first message was "badly worded". That's a start; he has been made to think about what he said and is likely to give more thought to public statements in the future. As far as b) is concerned the admirable post by Nigel Parsons back on 10 Jul 14 - 04:44 PM demonstrates that the incident in question is far from isolated and everyone who has read this thread and read Nigel's links will be more aware of this wrong in our society and should have their thinking and opinions influenced by it. Very small steps, I'll admit - but this is only an internet chat group that is not widely read or quoted ok, Vic, Iagree it is good to raise concsiousness and not to prejudge as this organiser was doing. However it does not alter the fact that on occasions travellers can cause problems ,the same applies to football supporters, I agree with you that it is wrong to generalise from particular occasions, it is nonsense for example to say all football supporters cause trouble it is in my experience a minority that do, the same applies to travellers or any ethnic group. it is also wrong for anyone to pretend that football supporters or travellers or muslims or any other ethnic group never cause trouble. but you are absolutely right , when you say that we must not be prejudice or prejudge the actions of any ethnic group before an event. |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: The Sandman Date: 15 Jul 14 - 06:34 AM here is another example, a white settled non traveller or a white taxi driver commits a burglary, do any of us turn round and say, oh you cant trust those white non settled travellers and white taxi drivers they commit burglaries, no we do not, but if a travellers commits a burglary, then some people turn round and say oh those travellers they committ burglaries, they generalise from one or two occasions. of course that does not mean travellers do not committ burglaries, but so do taxi drivers or all sorts of people from different backgrounds including one sussex folk club organiser, who used to live in Lewes. at the same time if i was harassed consistently by any individual whatever their ethnic group, I cannot say that my reaction would be any different from Tony Martin. my attitude is this , I will try to give anyone a chance regardless of their colour,religion or ethnic group, i try not to prejudge. |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: zozimus Date: 15 Jul 14 - 12:49 PM I'm curious to know if the funeral passed off peacefully. I presume it did as the media is only interested in giving us negative reports about travellers,and I can't find a mention. Meanwhile, keep an eye on the Miss Ireland competition July 19th. Sarah Jane Dunne, daughter of Pecker Dunne, becomes the first from the travelling community to enter, representing Kilkenny. What's the odds? |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: Vic Smith Date: 15 Jul 14 - 01:12 PM I'm curious to know if the funeral passed off peacefully. Searched the website versions of the two weekly local newspapers for that area - no mention. |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: GUEST,OldNicKilby Date: 16 Jul 14 - 08:59 AM Vic, that proves absolutely nothing. Such events are frequently censored. There was no coverage when there was a Traveller Funeral in my village when the W M C was totally trashed and there were scores of Police to quell the ensuing riot. Perhaps the main problem is that Folkies in the main wear "Rose Tinted Specs" . They have never had to deal with violent abuse and threats from Travellers. Unfortunately I have |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: GUEST Date: 16 Jul 14 - 09:47 AM OldNicKilby "Perhaps the main problem is that Folkies in the main wear "Rose Tinted Specs"" If so, and if this is a significant factor in this issue, it might also be interesting to consider: - just to what extent any substantially middle class 'folkie' social demographic that deplores prejudice against travellers, may not be so 'progressive' in their snobish attitudes to working class council estate tenants dismissively regarded as 'chavs' and 'scroungers' ? Double standards ?, hypochrisy ? - what us folkies.. no, never.. perish the thought.... |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: GUEST Date: 16 Jul 14 - 09:51 AM .. and at risk of over pressing the point:- Romantic folkie fantasies about running away ro live in a gypsy caravan.. Romantic folkie fantasies about running away ro live in a high rise block of council flats...????? hmmmm... |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: meself Date: 16 Jul 14 - 11:06 AM It might also be interesting to consider whether racism has any place in a modern liberal democracy - a number of posters here seem to feel it does. |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: GUEST Date: 16 Jul 14 - 11:30 AM Brings to mind the old student/feminist politics tenet "The personal is political" ? Which informed many a politicized radical agit pop new wave / punk band and theatre group back in the good old days. As individuals, we really do need to be scrupulously aware of and constantly rexamine the smallest everday aspects of our ingrained values and attitudes. Be totally honest with ourselves, if we were to discover discrepencies and contradictions between our 'big political issue' beliefs and our casually held day to day attitudes and interactions with other individuals and social groupings. |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: Jim Carroll Date: 16 Jul 14 - 11:30 AM "Rose Tinted Specs" A little more revealing than blinkers. Your story of a funeral being trashed brought to mind an evening a couple of us were sitting in our local bar with a couple of Travellers (shortly after the "Travellers out, residents in" incident I described. Out of blue a bunch of locals came in and went for the two lads, fists swinging - no reason given. You may have read that Ireland has just been hauled up before a U.N. Human Rights court and slated for its attitude to pregnancy termination and treatment of Travellers. It will be interesting to see what happens Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: The Sandman Date: 16 Jul 14 - 11:41 AM occasionally travellers behave badly, occasionally football supporters behave badly. but if some football supporters behave badly it is incorrect, to state that all football supporters behave badly, the same applies to travellers. old nickelby has had one bad experience with travellers.old nick, i have had one good experience with travellers, that does not make me think all travellers are angels, neither should your one bad experience make you prejudice, I am sure you are not prejudice against travellers. |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: GUEST Date: 16 Jul 14 - 11:43 AM As an aside illustration, I well remember one of my political ideology lecturers 35 years ago, who had history in the workers revolutionary party. I saw her once sat near the back seats of a bus surrounded by council estate teenagers, and she looked absolutely horrified to be anywhere near in contact with such 'loutish noisy oiks'.... Well sorry yer ladyship, but you can't just be fighting for the workers revolution in the confines of lecture halls and middle class dinner parties... |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: Jim Carroll Date: 16 Jul 14 - 12:51 PM "Just to what extent any substantially middle class 'folkie' social demographic" Bit of stereotyping going on here. We spent thirty odd years in the company of Travellers. I worked as an electrician and went off to record them after climbing out of someones loft, going home to have a bath and a meal, then driving across London to see if they were still around or had been evicted. Can't ever remember one of them calling me a 'Chav" (I assume you know that is a Gypsy word?) or a "scrounger" Romaticism doesn't arise from "double standards or class-driven insularity, just from ignorance - often self-inflicted. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: The Sandman Date: 16 Jul 14 - 01:29 PM guest, you appear to be suggesting all council estate teenagers are loutish noisy oiks, based on one incident, your post inadvertently reveals your prejudice. furthermore you never asked your lecturer, her opinion, you made an assumption, perhaps your lecturer would have been equally annoyed by loutish behaviour of anyone regardless of whether they were upper class or working class, but you do not know because you never asked, but jumped to your own conclusion. |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: GUEST Date: 16 Jul 14 - 01:40 PM Sorry, didn't mean you Jim - on this issue your positive credentials are way beyond reproach. Yes, and you are right to point out and criticise me for the 'prejudice' in my generalising about the 'middle classes'. All stereotyping and denigration of races cultures and sub cultures is inherrently wrong. Like every one else I'm not perfect, and may not always meet the high progressive standards I try to live by... However, there does seem to be a high proportion of hypocritical self rightious pillocks amongst the trendy radical 'folkie' middle classes. |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: GUEST Date: 16 Jul 14 - 01:55 PM .. Good Soldier Schweik, the phrase you seek to find offence in was presented in inverted commas.. If you'd spent as many hours as I did, in that particular shrewish patronising lecturers company, you might not be so quick to jump to concocting an artificial defence on her behalf to support you misconstrued arguement. [oh yeah, forgot to mention I was a working class mature student, son of a factory shop steward - council estate upbringing] Still, it's all about ideas, and debating ideas is healthy. |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: Jim Carroll Date: 16 Jul 14 - 03:02 PM "may not always meet the high progressive standards I try to live by..." Who is? No apology necessary, just thought it worthwhile making the point. I the 1960s the broad and often very active support for Travellers came from "the students" gawd luv them. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: The Sandman Date: 17 Jul 14 - 03:23 AM there are two ways of approaching life and people, the best way , in my opinion is to try and see the best in people, and to try and appeal to the better nature of people, being confrontational is not a good way to achieve this in my opinion. |
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Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: mayomick Date: 17 Jul 14 - 11:03 AM Vic , I did see and appreciated your irony . I was making the point that the mysterious guest wasn't me and that I was in agreement with what Jim C had written. |
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