 sj |
||
|
||
A worrying circular from a folk club
|
|
|
Subject: A worrying circular from a folk club From: Vic Smith Date: 09 Jul 14 - 01:51 PM I have just received the following circular from a folk club just outside London. It is probably going to be controversial on Mudcat so may I apologise in advance for any unpleasantness that arises in advance of my starting this thread. However, I find the thoughts and actions behind the message deeply worrying, First of all the message: - Hi all, Let me give my reasons for concern - First of all the licensing authorities (advised by the police, I wonder?) - * Do they have the right to warn of potential trouble from one particular ethnic group? Is this permissible under any of Britain's Race Relations laws? Why cannot a group of people have a wake in a pub as other people can just because they are gypsies? Then the publican - * I suppose he has to think that if there were trouble in his pub following a funeral - whoever it was caused by - he might find his business in danger for not following what he probably takes to be police advice - And what about the folk club organiser? * How does he describe this traveller invasion - " a carriage with six white horses for the coffin, three truck-loads of floral tributes, twelve stretch Rolls-Royces plus innumerable other vehicles." Does this sound like a crowd of cut-throat thugs or does it sound like the funeral of a member of some successful traveller business whose family are spending a great deal of money to show their last respects to a member of their community. I ran a folk club for 50 years. We had many Scots, Irish and English travellers as guests; they are, after all, the outstandingly most important tradition bearers in these islands. Many of these lovely people stayed at our house after performing at our club. A large proportion of my song and tune repertoire was learned from gypsy traveller sources. Tina and I work with Shirley Collins on her "I'm a Romany Rai" show which we have presented at ours and other folk clubs, art centres and folk festivals, in schools and colleges. At many of these events, traveller groups have turned up and many have spoken to us afterwards saying how proud they were to know that their contribution to British traditional culture was being valued and praised. Never once did we feel that "If that lot decide to start anything, we'll be well outnumbered. Also we're concerned about our cars in the car park... " Never was there a suggestion of anything but an enjoyable evening. Does that folk club organiser allow material learned from traveller sources to be performed at his club? You never know what might 'kick off' if he does! |
|
Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: Les in Chorlton Date: 09 Jul 14 - 02:22 PM Perhaps it's a spoof? |
|
Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: GUEST,FloraG Date: 09 Jul 14 - 02:25 PM I worked in a school where the only exit was past a church that was used for gypsy funerals. There was never any trouble but they did tend to block the exit home - so we were advised if possible not to plan out exit home at that time. It was just a sensible thing to do. Most teachers tend to work late so we were advised to leave promptly for once if the funeral was after school leaving times. A number of our students were involved in the funerals as it was a school that had a number of gypsy students - and exeats were granted as part of our understanding of their culture. FloraG |
|
Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: GUEST,saulgoldie Date: 09 Jul 14 - 02:31 PM I guess it is mostly a lost cause, but they prefer to be called "Roma." Saul |
|
Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: GUEST,Raggytash Date: 09 Jul 14 - 02:37 PM Could I suggest, that if the word Gypsy had been omitted, not a word would have been said? |
|
Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: Vic Smith Date: 09 Jul 14 - 02:40 PM Could I suggest, that if the word Gypsy had been omitted, not a word would have been said? |
|
Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: GUEST,Raggytash Date: 09 Jul 14 - 02:46 PM Vic, am I correct to assume that is a positive reply? |
|
Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: Vic Smith Date: 09 Jul 14 - 02:51 PM Yes. Thumbs up indicates that I approve of the statement. |
|
Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: GUEST Date: 09 Jul 14 - 03:00 PM @Vic If you have a problem with the advice of the Metropolitan Police then I suggest that you write to the Commissioner or the Mayor. |
|
Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: Vic Smith Date: 09 Jul 14 - 03:26 PM The OP said "just outside London". |
|
Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: Manitas_at_home Date: 09 Jul 14 - 04:16 PM I have been to a gypsy funeral, of a friend, and it was HUGE. The circular could have been couched in less adversarial terms but the potential for traffic problems is there. There were not that many people at the wake after the funeral I attended so I guess most people went home and I expect that's what will have happened with this funeral. Re the preferred use of the term Roma. Why do we have the Gypsy Council and not the Roma Council or has that been changed now? |
|
Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: Vic Smith Date: 09 Jul 14 - 04:42 PM Why do we have the Gypsy Council and not the Roma Council or has that been changed now? I have been to a number of enjoyable events organised by The Romany and Traveller Family History Society. I am a friend of their Vice President and she was a regular at our folk club. In my experience, the term 'Roma' is not used by them and seems to be reserved for those from Eastern Europe. All my working life, I was in Special Education and came into frequent contact with English and Irish traveller families. Back in the 1960s the name 'gypsy' was hated by them and seen as a term of abuse but over the years I saw that change. Partly, I think that they reclaimed the word as a distinguishing mark; I used to hear things like, "We are a gypsy (or sometimes Romany Gypsy) family; nothing to do with that New Age lot." and partly because society has moved on and organisations such as the R&TFHS have encouraged people to take pride in their family roots. |
|
Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: Mr Red Date: 09 Jul 14 - 05:26 PM Half of the shops & pubs in Stow on the Wold close for Stow Fair. Slightly different circumstances, but let's face it criminal elements are attracted by large crowds, they can hide there. People will be offended if a similar attribute of unruliness is leveled at a large football crowd. As if Milwall didn't exist. Other drunken fans are available. Never mind any notional quality, quantity matters. |
|
Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: Tradsinger Date: 09 Jul 14 - 05:58 PM I agree with the above posters. The folk club circular sounds very racist to me. Try putting the word black or Muslim in the circular and so how that reads! Like some of the above posters, I have mixed a lot with gypsies without any trouble. They are a valid minority group who deserve our respect, not our suspicion, especially on the occasion of a funeral. Tradsinger |
|
Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: GUEST,mauvepink Date: 09 Jul 14 - 07:37 PM Good for you for posting this and having the courage of your convictions. Good to them who give support. I am fully in agreement with the points raised... but would not have been brave enough to post it up alone as you did. I commend your courage and those who have spoke up too. mp |
|
Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: Georgiansilver Date: 10 Jul 14 - 02:28 AM There is nothing racist in the circular... there is a mention of Gypsies of course but there are two types considered gypsies in the UK. The Romany Gypsies who originated in Romania and the 'travellers' who are largely borne from the 'hippies' and 'beatniks' of the 1960s. The latter from my experience are the ones who cause most trouble. We had a Gypsy funeral here around two years ago (travellers not Romanies) with Ford Transit vans and large engined cars lining the streets and many people decided to stay at home for the day for two reasons... the first that some of them are known to be violent when drunk and others to break into unoccupied houses. I personally believe that people should be allowed to take precautions of any sort they see fit for any reason.... We should be free to decide what we do and when we do it as long as it is within the law..... Sadly laws are changing to take away our basic human rights and will go on doing so as long as people are ready to criticise others for making what they see as sensible decisions! |
|
Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: Bonzo3legs Date: 10 Jul 14 - 02:41 AM No me importa un pepino!! |
|
Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: GUEST,Musket Date: 10 Jul 14 - 03:01 AM Georgiansilver doesn't mention the indigenous Irish contingent, far more prevalent around our neck of the woods. Part of me agrees that the poster could have mentioned disruption due to large event or other non stigmatising way of putting it. Another part of me used to be in business, manufacturing chiefly construction equipment. Whenever a camp was set up near or on an industrial estate we had a depot on, our premises tended to be coincidentally broken into by non discriminating thieves who usually had a shit on a desk or bench as a leaving present for us. Total coincidence of course. The police never bothered following up coincidences either. People have every right to be concerned where a reputation in the past leads to concern in the present. At the funeral of Tommy Coyne in Doncaster a few years ago, there were over 30 arrests and hundreds of thousands of pounds worth of damage to many premises. Equality includes equal responsibility. To use the facilities of society means to use them responsibly. |
|
Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: Jack Campin Date: 10 Jul 14 - 07:11 AM Presumably this circular was created and circulated by one or a few members of the club committee. Rather than blame the whole club for it, why not find who specifically did it, and get a clue inserted in them someplace they won't forget? |
|
Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: eddie1 Date: 10 Jul 14 - 07:25 AM Slightly off-topic - I always smile wryly at reference to what we owe travellers by way of music and song. Of course we do owe them a lot and I am proud to have claimed people like Jimmy MacBeth, Belle Stewart and Davy Stewart as friends but: Way back (probably a 100 years or so) I was at the TMSA festival at Blairgowrie. Held at that place and time because of the number of travellers there for "the berry-picking"! I wanted a change from the usual run of concerts and found a pub frequented by travellers. There was what we qualified folkies would refer to as an "Open Mike" I was treated to such gems as Bebop-a-lula, Nobody's Child and Little Bittie Tear! So travellers are not all sainted bearers of the traditional music torch. On the other hand, neither are they all drunken troublemakers - a bit like any other ethnic group! Eddie |
|
Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: Vic Smith Date: 10 Jul 14 - 07:52 AM Eddie, I wonder if I have met you! We were at all the festivals at Blairgowrie and then at Kinross. I can remember a conversation with Belle, who we got to know well, about just this subject and she said that she was saddened by the younger people turning away from the traditional culture to Country and Western - which all travellers seemed to love. I tried to give her the example of the fact that young American blacks were turning their backs on their heritage of the blues, which they often called 'Slave Music' and going overboard for Soul music which did not have these unfortunate associations and was regarded as 'cool'. Perhaps it was the same with the Scots travellers' rich cultural heritage. The young travellers associated this with the rejection and prejudice that their 'tinker' parents had suffered and as an alternative were embracing the mainstream. |
|
Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: Vic Smith Date: 10 Jul 14 - 08:19 AM Les In Charlton "Perhaps it's a spoof?" Sadly, this is authentic. I receive an email circular from this club every week telling of their events (though I have never been to it or even asked to be on their list) The email address of the sender is the same as all previous communications. Another folk club organiser read this message and sent me a PM correctly naming the club that the message had come from and added that he was not surprised. |
|
Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: GUEST,matt milton Date: 10 Jul 14 - 08:20 AM There's also an aspect of the C&W/rock'n'roll influence on traveller music that I really like. Some of the inflections and sliding-up-to-a-note that you hear in the singer Jasper Smith, for instance, strike me as a bit Elvis/Sinatra-ish. It's one of the things that made him a characterful and distinctive singer! |
|
Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: The Sandman Date: 10 Jul 14 - 08:37 AM The folk club CONCERNED has a right to reply, some people seem to know which club it is others, including myself do not. my opinion, is that the folk club concerned should be made aware, that this is being discussed on the net and the organiser should have the right to reply or not reply. I therefore think that Vic should contact the organiser directly and let his feelings be known, what is the point of discussing it behind someones back, that will not make the organiser change his/ her mind, yes, it will raise consciousness about traveller prejudice, but will it alter anyones way of thinking? |
|
Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: GUEST Date: 10 Jul 14 - 09:48 AM The licensing authority requested the closure not the club. The club decided that the option of a lock in wasn't realistic. The club had to advise their members of the closure and the reason. The email should have been rather more carefully worded but when I receivied it yesterday all I saw was the organiser's frustration rather than racism. Of course if you set out to be offended you will always find something offensive. |
|
Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: GUEST Date: 10 Jul 14 - 10:02 AM last minute event cancellations - don't it all usually boil down to institutional paranoid fear of potential risk of insurance claims ??? |
|
Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: meself Date: 10 Jul 14 - 10:58 AM From a North American perspective, which I have no reason to believe anyone wants - but sometimes it's helpful to have an outsider's perspective - which the White Southern Americans and the White South Africans never seemed to want either - whenever one of these 'traveller/gypsy' threads appears, I feel like I've fallen back fifty years into the North America of my childhood, when it was common to hear the same sorts of things said about Blacks (or 'Negroes' or 'Coloured People', the polite terms of the time). What it boiled down to was this: 'If THEY wouldn't be so [choose adjective: violent, lazy, stupid, dishonest, immoral, etc.], then we wouldn't be so prejudiced'. Such a statement would usually be preceded or followed by an illustrative anecdote. Gradually, and with much effort, consciousness was raised to the extent that it became generally accepted that racism was wrong in and of itself, and furthermore, had the effect of exacerbating the very anti-social behaviour complained of. Now back to our regular program ..... |
|
Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: Jim Carroll Date: 10 Jul 14 - 11:19 AM It is common practice here in The West of Ireland for police to visit all pubs in the area and instruct them to close their doors and only admit people the recognise onto the premises whenever Travellers are in the area. They are not forced to do so, but they are informed that, if there should be any trouble, the police will not respond to any calls for assistance. Jim Carroll |
|
Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: GUEST,Morris-ey Date: 10 Jul 14 - 11:23 AM Whilst the e-mail might verifiably have come from the "Club concerned" has anyone actually checked that the Local Authority made such an order? |
|
Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: GUEST Date: 10 Jul 14 - 11:30 AM .. adding another small thread drift...... back in the mid 70s there was at least one cafe in Glastonbury with the stern notice on it's door "No Hippies!!!"..... Glastonnbury ffs... How times have changed... ??? |
|
Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: Jack Campin Date: 10 Jul 14 - 11:53 AM It would be a constructive gesture if a delegation from the folk club went to the funeral to dissociate themselves from the local authority's ruling. They might also offer to sing requests. |
|
Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: GUEST,Raggytash Date: 10 Jul 14 - 02:24 PM Wonderful idea Jack ...............except the club shut on the day of the funeral .....................Duh!! |
|
Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: GUEST,Raggytash Date: 10 Jul 14 - 02:31 PM Apologises Jack, I've realised my contribution sounds patronising. Sorry no offence meant. |
|
Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: Vic Smith Date: 10 Jul 14 - 04:24 PM I therefore think that Vic should contact the organiser directly and let his feelings be known, I have, of course, been in contact with him and he with me. |
|
Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: Nigel Parsons Date: 10 Jul 14 - 04:44 PM Nothing new then: Surrey 19/11/2009 "Many landlords said they decided to close the pubs saying they acted on advice given to them by Surrey Police. Keith Huddlestone, the manager of The Running Horse, in Bridge Street, Leatherhead, claims he had a warning from police about the funeral." Henley 16/12/13 Conflicting reports: The pub, which normally opens at 11am, stayed closed until 4.30pm when the travellers had gone. Manager Joanne Burton said: "The decision to close was just a precaution because in the past we have had a little bit of trouble with travellers. "The police and the council let us know what was happening but it was our choice whether or not to open The Flowing Spring in Playhatch also closed amid fears the travellers might look for another pub to visit. Nick Willson, who owns the pub with his wife Hazel Lucas, said: "The information we got from police and pubs in Caversham was that there would be about 1,000 travellers and it would be advisable to close. Warrington 14/1/13"The road will be closed from King Edward Street to Padgate lane. Access will be maintained for residents and local businesses during this time although pubs have been told to close" It seems sometimes pubs are told to close, sometimes they are advised to, and sometimes they are left with the choice. Are the police abrogating their responsibility? Either there will be no trouble (pubs can stay open), or there is a small chance of trouble (police should handle it), or police believe that trouble is unavoidable, and should deal with it as they would any other event (Football match, protest rally) where they are expecting problems. What is the betting that the police/licensing authority's advice to these pubs is rarely in writing, so that they cannot be effectively quoted. |
|
Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: BobKnight Date: 10 Jul 14 - 07:57 PM Don't make the mistake of thinking "travellers," are gypsies, and please don't confuse REAL travellers, with New Age Travellers of the late sixties, seventies. The name, "Gypsy/Travellers" is merely a term of convenience for the authorites, a pigoen hole. Recent programmes on TV, referring to gypsy this and gypsy that are invariably about Irish travellers, with not a gypsy in sight, yet another term of convenience for the ignorant. |
|
Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: Jack Campin Date: 10 Jul 14 - 08:16 PM New Age travellers are just as real as any other human beings, and they are NOT a legitimate target for persecution just because they fail to be Gypsies or Scottish Highland travellers. "Go harass that other lot instead" isn't even going to work as a strategy for defending Gypsies' rights. |
|
Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: vectis Date: 10 Jul 14 - 11:52 PM I used to work in a town where the school had a large (very large) number of Romany, Irish traveller and Roma children from the locality. Whenever there was a funeral for any of these groups the town ground to a standstill because of the huge numbers that would turn out to said funeral. If staff wanted to get home they had to go out of the other end of town. I seem to remember that the schools and pubs were all notified (not warned) of the time and place of the funerals so that those who wanted to close could do so. Nearer London I can imagine that traffic chaos would ensue, people trying to get places would be delayed and get frustrated and a few hotheads could easily start an affray which opportunists could quickly inflame into real trouble. Adding alcohol into the mix just makes the likelihood of trouble greater. Folk organiser sounds pee'd off rather than racist in this instance. |
|
Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: meself Date: 11 Jul 14 - 01:53 AM No, he doesn't sound racist - he just sounds pee'd off at a certain racial/cultural minority. |
|
Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: The Sandman Date: 11 Jul 14 - 03:25 AM "From: Vic Smith - PM Date: 10 Jul 14 - 04:24 PM I therefore think that Vic should contact the organiser directly and let his feelings be known, I have, of course, been in contact with him and he with me." "why, of course",are we supposed to be mind readers. Vic, in my opinion contacting the organiser is the ONLY correct thing to do |
|
Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: GUEST,Desi C Date: 11 Jul 14 - 03:26 AM Umm, yes perhaps it does have a racist tint about it. On the other hand there is good reason why most pubs (certainly in my area Wolverhampton)display signs saying 'NO GYPSIES' The reason is there are a few Gypsy camps in the area and several pubs lost their licences due to Gypsy Violence. A fol club I was a member of had Gypsis regularly come in, in just 3 3weeks they caused so much trouble it had to close. Finally please don't equate Irish people with Gypsies/Romanies. I am Irish, and they are much LESS tolerated back home, their accents are I assure you the only Irish thing about them. This is not a racist rant against them, it's just some facts based on persnal experience. Gypsies seem to have an inherent problem with alcohol, the medical profession would bear that out and police do frequently warn pubs about Gypsy events |
|
Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: Jim Carroll Date: 11 Jul 14 - 03:28 AM "Don't make the mistake of thinking "Travellers," are gypsies, and please don't confuse REAL Travellers, with New Age Travellers of the late sixties, seventies." Not that it matters, even if it were true - they are all human beings and are being discriminated against. The supposed difference between Traveller groups have long been used to scapegoat 'not-real' Travellers. Changes of life style due to urbanization, abandonment of old customs, intermarriage.... and a host of other reasons, have made the 'difference' between all those on the road indistinguishable to the point of non-existence. Even 'real Gypsies' have been persecuted because they fail to live up to the romanticised George Borrow image of what Gypsies are supposed to be and how they should live and look. "No, he doesn't sound racist " I have been to dozens of Traveller weddings, funerals and christenings and have never at any time seen any more trouble than you might expect on a boisterous stag night or hen party. The fact that Travellers are picked out for discrimination makes this exactly what it is, a racist attack on a cultural minority. Jim Carroll |
|
Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: johncharles Date: 11 Jul 14 - 05:47 AM I doubt that the police would concede they were picking on a cultural minority. As with many events I suspect the police look at evidence of previous behaviour and make a risk assessment on the strength of this evidence. A classic example of this will be the championship football match between Leeds and Milwall. I have no doubt restrictions will be in force, on the basis of previous behaviour. If police were not to give advice and trouble occurred no doubt they would be pilloried in the press for neglecting public safety. john |
|
Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: BobKnight Date: 11 Jul 14 - 06:29 AM My post was intended to point out that not all travelling people are the same. Travellers are not gypsies and vice versa, although they share a nomadic, but dying lifestyle. |
|
Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: bubblyrat Date: 11 Jul 14 - 08:39 AM I used to live near the New Forest , a traditional home for Gypsies ,as we were wont to call them ( ......".play with the Roma in the wood " doesn't quite have the same ring to it ); I was interested in their historical "stewardship" of the Forest , and even had a namesake , "Brusher" Mills , who had lived in a woodpile,and caught adders which he sold to medical researchers to fund his far from moderate alcohol consumption ! I also learned of their attachment ,if that's the right word ,to the Gorse / Furze bushes, the dead wood of which really IS a good fuel! But then,whilst working as the Stage Door Keeper at The REgent Centre in Christchurch, I was rudely surprised to witness the APPALLING and lawless behaviour of a whole convoy of Irish "travellers" who invaded the theatre car-park in their unlicensed,untaxed vehicles, let their children defaecate and urinate opely on the ground,and went round testing the fuel-tank cap on every vehicle and dismantling the boundary fence ! The police didn't want to know. I complained to my employer (Christchurch Council ) who threatened me with disciplinary action if I said ONE WORD against the "travellers" who , I quote ,were " an ethnic minority group with their own culture and language " -----I pointed out that I, too, was a member of such a group ( The English !!) which didn't go down too well ! But as for being "Gypsies",these dreadful Irish people bore no resemblance at all .Eventually they left and set up shop in .....guess where ?? YES !! The Council Office Car Park ; HOORAY I cried !!! |
|
Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: Jim Carroll Date: 11 Jul 14 - 08:45 AM "As with many events I suspect the police look at evidence of previous behaviour" You mean if a rowdy group of footballers made a nuisance of themselves, then all football supporters would be automatically banned - sorry John - doesn't happen. Travellers we knew in London in the 70s and 80s campaigned to have 'no Travellers served', which were common in those days, removed from pubs - the campaign was largely successful in having them made illegal, but nowadays the discrimination exists in different forms, the end result being the same. Automatically assuming that all Travellers are troublemakers is every bit as racist as claiming that all black men have big willies and lust after white women. Jim Carroll |
|
Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: Vic Smith Date: 11 Jul 14 - 10:32 AM I believe that I am a fair-minded person so I must say that I was encouraged by the subsequent message from the organiser which includes these statements - "My e-mail was sent in haste to try to prevent our members travelling unnecessarily and reading it again this morning I can see that some of it was badly worded." and elsewhere "I had no intention of maligning gypsies in general." and again " I believe that all people should be treated equally regardless of race, religion, orientation, disability, age etc., and I believe that I do treat people so." Well, good, that's a great improvement on the first circular. He even has the grace to say that the slow pace of the cortege and the long traffic delay was being directed by the police though he did not realise it at the time |
|
Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: meself Date: 11 Jul 14 - 10:52 AM Jim - I believe you missed the irony in my post of 10 Jul 14 - 10:58 AM .... ************************************ I'm wondering where all those Mudcatters are who declare themselves such vigorous enemies of racism and bigotry ... ? |
|
Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: Tradsinger Date: 11 Jul 14 - 05:44 PM I'm sorry, but the organiser's explanation still does not wash with me. Does he mean that the pub would close for any big funeral, or for any large sporting event or street carnival etc in the area, for example, or is he specifically singling out gypsy funerals? Would he refer to other groups as "that lot"? If the police had specific information that there would be trouble, then so be it, but "trouble is anticipated" sounds like paranoia to me. It's a big event. So, it's up to the police to manage it, like they would any other big event. Tradsinger |
|
Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club From: selby Date: 11 Jul 14 - 06:03 PM What i find interesting is how we immediately fall into camps the for,s and the against,s what we seem to forget is like every race and creed there are good and bad. Experience tells what happened in the past then dictates the future.I live in a rural area and had a work mate who was the best mate a man could have BUT put a pint down his neck instant nut case and you did not want to be in his company Keith |
| Share Thread: |