A worrying circular from a folk club

Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club
From: mayomick
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 11:03 AM

Vic , I did see and appreciated your irony .   I was making the point that the mysterious guest wasn't me and that I was in agreement with what Jim C had written.

Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 03:23 AM

there are two ways of approaching life and people, the best way , in my opinion is to try and see the best in people, and to try and appeal to the better nature of people, being confrontational is not a good way to achieve this in my opinion.

Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 03:02 PM

"may not always meet the high progressive standards I try to live by..."
Who is?
No apology necessary, just thought it worthwhile making the point.
I the 1960s the broad and often very active support for Travellers came from "the students" gawd luv them.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 01:55 PM

.. Good Soldier Schweik, the phrase you seek to find offence in was presented in inverted commas..

If you'd spent as many hours as I did,
in that particular shrewish patronising lecturers company,
you might not be so quick to jump to concocting an artificial defence on her behalf to support you misconstrued arguement.

[oh yeah, forgot to mention I was a working class mature student, son of a factory shop steward - council estate upbringing]

Still, it's all about ideas, and debating ideas is healthy.

Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 01:40 PM

Sorry, didn't mean you Jim - on this issue your positive credentials are way beyond reproach.

Yes, and you are right to point out and criticise me for the 'prejudice' in my generalising about the 'middle classes'.

All stereotyping and denigration of races cultures and sub cultures is inherrently wrong.

Like every one else I'm not perfect, and may not always meet the high progressive standards I try to live by...

However, there does seem to be a high proportion of hypocritical self rightious pillocks amongst the trendy radical 'folkie' middle classes.

Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 01:29 PM

guest, you appear to be suggesting all council estate teenagers are loutish noisy oiks, based on one incident, your post inadvertently reveals your prejudice. furthermore you never asked your lecturer, her opinion, you made an assumption, perhaps your lecturer would have been equally annoyed by loutish behaviour of anyone regardless of whether they were upper class or working class, but you do not know because you never asked, but jumped to your own conclusion.

Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 12:51 PM

"Just to what extent any substantially middle class 'folkie' social demographic"
Bit of stereotyping going on here.
We spent thirty odd years in the company of Travellers.
I worked as an electrician and went off to record them after climbing out of someones loft, going home to have a bath and a meal, then driving across London to see if they were still around or had been evicted.
Can't ever remember one of them calling me a 'Chav" (I assume you know that is a Gypsy word?) or a "scrounger"
Romaticism doesn't arise from "double standards or class-driven insularity, just from ignorance - often self-inflicted.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 11:43 AM

As an aside illustration, I well remember one of my political ideology lecturers 35 years ago,
who had history in the workers revolutionary party.

I saw her once sat near the back seats of a bus surrounded by council estate teenagers,
and she looked absolutely horrified to be anywhere near in contact with such 'loutish noisy oiks'....

Well sorry yer ladyship, but you can't just be fighting for the workers revolution
in the confines of lecture halls and middle class dinner parties...

Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 11:41 AM

occasionally travellers behave badly, occasionally football supporters behave badly. but if some football supporters behave badly it is incorrect, to state that all football supporters behave badly, the same applies to travellers.
old nickelby has had one bad experience with travellers.old nick, i have had one good experience with travellers, that does not make me think all travellers are angels, neither should your one bad experience make you prejudice, I am sure you are not prejudice against travellers.

Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 11:30 AM

"Rose Tinted Specs"
A little more revealing than blinkers.
Your story of a funeral being trashed brought to mind an evening a couple of us were sitting in our local bar with a couple of Travellers (shortly after the "Travellers out, residents in" incident I described.
Out of blue a bunch of locals came in and went for the two lads, fists swinging - no reason given.
You may have read that Ireland has just been hauled up before a U.N. Human Rights court and slated for its attitude to pregnancy termination and treatment of Travellers.   
It will be interesting to see what happens
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 11:30 AM

Brings to mind the old student/feminist politics tenet "The personal is political" ?

Which informed many a politicized radical agit pop new wave / punk band
and theatre group back in the good old days.

As individuals, we really do need to be scrupulously aware of and constantly rexamine
the smallest everday aspects of our ingrained values and attitudes.
Be totally honest with ourselves, if we were to discover discrepencies and contradictions between
our 'big political issue' beliefs and our casually held day to day attitudes and interactions
with other individuals and social groupings.

Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club
From: meself
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 11:06 AM

It might also be interesting to consider whether racism has any place in a modern liberal democracy - a number of posters here seem to feel it does.

Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 09:51 AM

.. and at risk of over pressing the point:-

Romantic folkie fantasies about running away ro live in a gypsy caravan..

Romantic folkie fantasies about running away ro live in a high rise block of council flats...?????

hmmmm...

Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 09:47 AM

OldNicKilby

"Perhaps the main problem is that Folkies in the main wear "Rose Tinted Specs""

If so, and if this is a significant factor in this issue, it might also be interesting to consider: -

just to what extent any substantially middle class 'folkie' social demographic
that deplores prejudice against travellers,
may not be so 'progressive' in their snobish attitudes to working class council estate tenants
dismissively regarded as 'chavs' and 'scroungers' ?


Double standards ?, hypochrisy ? - what us folkies.. no, never.. perish the thought....

Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club
From: GUEST,OldNicKilby
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 08:59 AM

Vic, that proves absolutely nothing. Such events are frequently censored. There was no coverage when there was a Traveller Funeral in my village when the W M C was totally trashed and there were scores of Police to quell the ensuing riot. Perhaps the main problem is that Folkies in the main wear "Rose Tinted Specs" . They have never had to deal with violent abuse and threats from Travellers. Unfortunately I have

Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club
From: Vic Smith
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 01:12 PM

I'm curious to know if the funeral passed off peacefully.

Searched the website versions of the two weekly local newspapers for that area - no mention.

Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club
From: zozimus
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 12:49 PM

I'm curious to know if the funeral passed off peacefully. I presume it did as the media is only interested in giving us negative reports about travellers,and I can't find a mention. Meanwhile, keep an eye on the Miss Ireland competition July 19th. Sarah Jane Dunne, daughter of Pecker Dunne, becomes the first from the travelling community to enter, representing Kilkenny. What's the odds?

Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 06:34 AM

here is another example, a white settled non traveller or a white taxi driver commits a burglary, do any of us turn round and say, oh you cant trust those white non settled travellers and white taxi drivers they commit burglaries, no we do not, but if a travellers commits a burglary, then some people turn round and say oh those travellers they committ burglaries, they generalise from one or two occasions. of course that does not mean travellers do not committ burglaries, but so do taxi drivers or all sorts of people from different backgrounds including one sussex folk club organiser, who used to live in Lewes.
at the same time if i was harassed consistently by any individual whatever their ethnic group, I cannot say that my reaction would be any different from Tony Martin.
my attitude is this , I will try to give anyone a chance regardless of their colour,religion or ethnic group, i try not to prejudge.

Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 06:15 AM

From: Vic Smith - PM
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 02:41 PM

he declares victory.

For this thread, victory is not achieved by Bryan or Jim winning their argument on Mudcat. I stated my reasons and concerns in my opening post. Victory as far as this thread is concerned would be achieved if -

a) the club organiser is made to re-consider his attitudes and the way he expresses himself in his circulars.

b) Consciousness is raised of the institutional racism still manifesting itself in the knee-jerk reaction of the police/licensing authorities which runs "Gypsy Funeral...Close the pubs"

As far as a) is concerned, I reported that the folk club organiser circulated that his first message was "badly worded". That's a start; he has been made to think about what he said and is likely to give more thought to public statements in the future.

As far as b) is concerned the admirable post by Nigel Parsons back on 10 Jul 14 - 04:44 PM demonstrates that the incident in question is far from isolated and everyone who has read this thread and read Nigel's links will be more aware of this wrong in our society and should have their thinking and opinions influenced by it.

Very small steps, I'll admit - but this is only an internet chat group that is not widely read or quoted
ok, Vic, Iagree it is good to raise concsiousness and not to prejudge as this organiser was doing. However it does not alter the fact that on occasions travellers can cause problems ,the same applies to football supporters, I agree with you that it is wrong to generalise from particular occasions, it is nonsense for example to say all football supporters cause trouble it is in my experience a minority that do, the same applies to travellers or any ethnic group. it is also wrong for anyone to pretend that football supporters or travellers or muslims or any other ethnic group never cause trouble. but you are absolutely right , when you say that we must not be prejudice or prejudge the actions of any ethnic group before an event.

Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club
From: meself
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 11:49 PM

I must commend Vic Smith on his measured response to a gratuitously insulting post from an anonymous guest.

Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club
From: Vic Smith
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 06:01 PM

"her"?.... I mean "here".

Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club
From: Vic Smith
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 06:00 PM

Yes, see my post 10 Jul 14 - 04:24 PM and I have tried her to express satisfaction at his response.

Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 05:40 PM

Vic, did you ever have the courtesy to contact ther club organise in question?

We know from his subsequent email that you posted here without doing so.

Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 04:00 PM

I've dealt with my side of our dispute offline.

Really? I haven't replied yet.

Sorry, Vic. I simply replied to a sweeping statement by Jim with some actual facts and it escalated from there.

Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 02:52 PM

Can I suggest that any steps in matters such a these should be taken should be taken in consultation with any Travellers who might be affected - they are aware of the problems far more than the rest of us and prefer to handle them i their own way
As you say - not a matter of victory - I've dealt with my side of our dispute offline.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club
From: Vic Smith
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 02:41 PM

he declares victory.

For this thread, victory is not achieved by Bryan or Jim winning their argument on Mudcat. I stated my reasons and concerns in my opening post. Victory as far as this thread is concerned would be achieved if -

a) the club organiser is made to re-consider his attitudes and the way he expresses himself in his circulars.

b) Consciousness is raised of the institutional racism still manifesting itself in the knee-jerk reaction of the police/licensing authorities which runs "Gypsy Funeral...Close the pubs"

As far as a) is concerned, I reported that the folk club organiser circulated that his first message was "badly worded". That's a start; he has been made to think about what he said and is likely to give more thought to public statements in the future.

As far as b) is concerned the admirable post by Nigel Parsons back on 10 Jul 14 - 04:44 PM demonstrates that the incident in question is far from isolated and everyone who has read this thread and read Nigel's links will be more aware of this wrong in our society and should have their thinking and opinions influenced by it.

Very small steps, I'll admit - but this is only an internet chat group that is not widely read or quoted.

Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 11:49 AM

Wonderful. I prove he's lying and he declares victory.

Have it as you want to Jim. The best of luck in your campaign to promote hatred between the settled and traveller communities.

Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 11:08 AM

Bryan - I have no intention of making this another of our arfuments - the 'pitches' in Hackney are overwhelmingly yards with a single stand pipe and shared toilet - compare it to your tree-lined Nirvanah.
The Hackney report mentions 15 Travellers accommodated for, there were around 500 when we worked there - it post dates 2010, possibly ten years later, 25 years later than it drew up the plns I mentioned which were similar to the one you produced for Lewes.
And hackney was far in advance of all the other London Boroughs.
Thanks for making my point - nuff sed, by me anyway.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 10:46 AM

Sorry about that my blunder -
Hackney Council - Equality and Diversity - Gypsy, Roma and Traveller Communitie

but no action up to the mid nineties ...er...?

Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 10:30 AM

Bryan
I'm sure your Hackney link had a point - it won't open for me.
I know there was some good will there - mainly from Labour politicians, but no action up to the mid nineties apart from assistance in making the 'no Traveller signs' illegal - much appreciated.
We learned of an hilarious event which, unfortunately we didn't witness.
Mikeen McCarthy, a Traveller friend of long-standing, along with other local Travellers, started up a collection for the 'Save the Children' fund, and managed to raise a fair amount of money for it, which they sent off.
In return, Mikeen received a thank-you note along with a request that their President, Princess Anne, wished to visit the site and thank him, a organiser, personally; they were stopping in a small rented yard surrounded by a high, barred fence adjacent to Mare Street, at the time.
H.R.H. arrived on cue, along with two 'suits' as bodyguards, the gate was locked and the 'suits' stood on guard at the gate.   
Unbeknownst, the Mayor of Hackney had got wind of the visit and, as there was an election due, decided to contact the press and make a photo-opportunity of the visit.
He turned up at the site, only to be given his marching orders by the 'suits', so he walked around the fence until he spotted a small child, who he instructed to tell 'the lady' that the Mayor would like a word with her.
The child went off, opened the door of Mikeen's caravan and shouted, "Eh, missus, someone wants to talk to you".
The incident was reported in The Hackney Gazette, late tha week under the headline, "Eh Missus" - we still have a photo of Mikeen and H.R.H.
Mikeen's family was among those forced to flee London shortly afterwards, following John Major's abandoning the legal obligation to provide sites - they ended up in a field outside Thetford.
Good days!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 09:51 AM

Richard Bridge
Snail - I don't follow your point about your second link. Can you state it, succinctly, please?

Jim responded as if Bridies Tan, mentioned in my first link, was the only site in Lewes District and ignored the extensive work on finding suitable sites carried out bu the Council as described in my second link.

Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 09:34 AM

Hackney Council - Equality and Diversity - Gypsy, Roma and Traveller Communitie

Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 09:09 AM

Snail - I don't follow your point about your second link. Can you state it, succinctly, please?

Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 08:56 AM

"Perhaps the blame is more on one side in England "
Not really Richard - British Governments, (mainly labour) following intense protesting, in the sixties, often assisted by students, took steps to at least pay lip-service to the problem.
The Major Government virtually dismantled those measures.
Crime figures then showed that the overwhelming offences by Travellers was petty theft and having no tax and insurance for vehicles.
Urbanaisation has led to Traveller youth becoming involved in settled crimes, drugs being a case in point.
We understand that many of the inter-Traveller disputes surfacing at present are often directly connected with the shortage of sites - families having nowhere to stop resenting those who have.
The tragedy of all this is the cost of providing halting sites, which seem to work fairly successfully, is far less than forcing Travellers onto the roads.
I smiled at Bryan's 'site assessment for Lewes Council.
Hackney Council, an area we worked in for fifteen years, drew up such a plan shortly after we began work there.
It remained an "assessment" throughout the time we visited the area and was abandoned shortly after we stopped, without a yard of concrete ever having been laid.
I'm sure it will gall many here to learn that the greatest progress in assisting Travellers was carried out by the London County Council under the leadership of Ken Livingstone (until it was 'democratically' abolished by General Pinochet's girlfriend, Lady T).
One of the worst areas of London was Westminster, under Lady Porter, who - during her time off from moving council tenants out of their homes in order to sell them off to the wealthy (she housed them in asbestos-filled unwanted slums 'temporarily') - fulfilled her legal obligation by setting up a Travellers site under the Westway flyover, where it was found that the air pollution from lead-filled petrol fumes was the highest in Europe.
Good days!1
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 08:44 AM

Travellers are denied the basic rights of existence

I take it you didn't follow my second link, Jim.

The world doesn't start and end in the west of Ireland either.

Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club
From: Fergie
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 08:40 AM

MOVING ON SONG
(Ewan MacColl and Peggy Seeger)

Born in the middle of an afternoon
In a horse-drawn wagon on the old A5
The big twelve wheeler shook my bed
You can't stop here the policeman said
You better get born someplace else

So move along, get along, move along, get along,
Go, move, shift

Born in the tatie lifting time
In an old bow tent in a tatie field
The farmer said, The work's all done
It's time that you were moving on.

So move along, get along, move along, get along,
Go, move, shift

Born in a wagon on a building site
Where the ground was rutted by the trailer's wheels
The local people said to me,
You'll lower the price of property.

So move along, get along, move along, get along,
Go, move, shift

Born at the back of a blackthorn hedge
When the white hoarfrost lay all around
No wise men came bearing gifts
Instead the order came to shift.

So move along, get along, move along, get along,
Go, move, shift

The winter sky was hung with stars
And one shone brighter than the rest
The wise men came so stern and strict
And brought the order to evict.

So move along, get along, move along, get along,
Go, move, shift

Wagon, tent, or trailer born
Last week, last year, or in far off days
Born here or a thousand miles away
There's always men nearby who'll say.

So move along, get along, move along, get along,
Go, move, shift.

Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 08:26 AM

Musket reports increased crime when travellers are around, and says
"You will never get the vast majority of people seeing travellers as equal stakeholders whilst ever a large number of travellers use society without contributing. "

And Jim responds
"You cannot demand that someone contributes to a society that they are not allowed to be part of.
Travellers are denied the basic rights of existence - a secure place to stop, clean, drinkable water, sanitation... the things we take for granted - sort those things out and you will then have cause to complain that they don't contribute - it really is as simple as that."

And there we have it: it's a vicious circle. Perhaps the blame is more on one side in England and more on the other in Ireland. And there may be differences between different groups of travellers, both in how they are treated and in how they behave. But overall the picture is of each side (or, more correctly, some individuals on each side) regarding all of the other side with contempt and treating them accordingly.

Breaking a vicious circle is difficult. Overcoming prejudice is difficult.

There are plenty of similar and worse cases elsewhere in the world.

I heard a horror story from a chap who comes from Iran. When he was living in Bradford he befriended and helped an elderly English woman. Then one day one of his Pakistani neighbours told him off for doing so and said that the woman had no right to be living in a Moslem area.

Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club
From: Vic Smith
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 08:07 AM

mayomick wrote -
not me I'm with JC

I think that you missed the ironic nature on my comment, mayomick. I will not get into a slanging match on Mudcat, but I am not above the use of sarcasm.

Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 06:40 AM

Sorry Bryan - don't get your point.
There are sites legal sites available for less than a quarter of the number of Travelling families on the road today which means that over three quarters of the Travelling population have no place to stop.
Idyllic sites such as those pictured are few and far between with usually oversubscribed waiting lists.
At one time, Travellers camped illegally were entitled to be given fourteen days notice before eviction and all boroughs were obliged to provise stopping places for a pitiful number of Travelling families (though ecery council was entitled to apply for exemption.
John Major's Government did away with that law, causing a panic throughout the Travelling community.
Here in Ireland, Travellers stopping illegally are liable to having their trailers seized, leaving them homeless and forcing them into state accommodation (if available)
Where sites such as yours (though nowhere near idyllic) are proposed, any attempts to build them are met with massive resistance by locals, using both legal means, threats, and vandalism to ascertain that they are not established - several politicians go to the polls on an anti-Traveller ticket and the police usually do their bit to ascertain that Travellers are not made welcome.
Unfortunately, as with folk-clubs, the world doesn't start and end at Lewes.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 05:54 AM

Travellers are denied the basic rights of existence - a secure place to stop, clean, drinkable water, sanitation...
Bridies Tan
Site Assessment for Lewes District Council

Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club
From: GUEST,Old Folker
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 04:53 AM

I think it is quite possible that any useful information regarding the
music and lifestyle of Gypsy folk or Travellers of any persuasion
has been faithfully recorded at Cecil Sharpe House years ago.
The remnants of the true travellers are fading as they are absorbed into the wider society.
In my childhood days, visitations from folk selling clothes pegs and "Lucky White Heather" was the norm.
As farming becomes more technical, the need for mobile workers is now
mainly taken up by people from outside the UK. Most of them return home after a well paid season on various crops.
As the benefit net tightens, many will find the attraction of the
free and airey life on the road less attractive.

Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 02:32 AM

"You will never get the vast majority of people seeing travellers as equal stakeholders whilst ever a large number of travellers use society without contributing. "
You cannot demand that someone contributes to a society that they are not allowed to be part of.
Travellers are denied the basic rights of existence - a secure place to stop, clean, drinkable water, sanitation... the things we take for granted - sort those things out and you will then have cause to complain that they don't contribute - it really is as simple as that.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club
From: GUEST,Guest Liberation Army
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 09:27 PM

Hello, Stilly River Sage .. of course it's 'me'.. that should be pretty obvious to some regular mudcatters by now.
Though, I am trying to stick to a one 'jokey name' per thread rule.
That's only fair and sensible for clarity of communication.

But, as I hope you understand , the underlying serious message of what I have to say
[mostly expressed in irreverent daft humour]
is consistent from thread to thread.

I thank you for a little patience and toleration.

After all, for some folks, the message always matters more than the messenger conveying it.


If that makes me sound like a bit of an old idealist tosser, well sorry, I probably am...

Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 07:20 PM

GUEST,Guest Liberation Army you're taking liberties with the number of guest names you use. Choose one and stick with it. There's a nice guest . . .

SRS

Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club
From: GUEST,Guest Liberation Army
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 06:50 PM

BTW - The Guest Liberation Army does not condone acts of extremism
in defense of the international rights and dignity of all Guests.

Please contact your nearest Rock Against Guestism organizer for further information.

Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club
From: GUEST, Guest Liberation Army
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 06:43 PM

"Without wishing to prolong the topic longer, I just want to say one thing. There seems to be a trend in humanity to look down on certain groups of people different from your group. These might be gypsies, or indeed Jews, Muslims or Christians. They might be immigrants or foreigners, or even a different colour from you. So you start to compile anecdotes of their bad/unsociable/ unacceptable behaviour, as they are somehow inferior to you, not conforming to your norms. This then seems to justify your treating them poorly, after all they are only gypsies....Jews....Romanians... etc.

All people should be treated equally and fairly, that's all I say."

Spot on Tradsinger - excellent post !!!

Now, in the context of mudcat, in place of the listed down trodden & unjustly despised minorites - substitute the subgroup Guests...



oh dear....

"Why does Mudcat tolerate anonymous GUEST posters to indulge in trolling, windup and baiting exercises? Please Mudcat make a stipulation backed by a software sentinel, that ensures that non-members are allowed to post once and once only to a post. That alone would go a long way to bringing a lot of this abuse of these threads to an end."

Fergus, please consider Trad's pertinent contribution.

Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club
From: mayomick
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 06:21 PM

not me I'm with JC

Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club
From: Vic Smith
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 03:31 PM

I do retain the right to defend myself from thoughtless assertions from third parties who pontificate their "superior" knowledge of all things relating to the Travelling community.
Thank you GUEST for taking so much trouble, time and space to defend your good name.... even though we have no idea what that name is.

Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club
From: Musket
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 03:11 PM

Too true. All people need to be not only treated equally but but treat others equally too.

There is a reason why crime rates go up over a only a few post code areas when travellers are camping locally. There is a reason why break ins to the industrial units we used to operate from from were only broken into when there was a camp nearby. There was a reason why police refused to investigate whenever travellers were nearby as it wasn't worth the effort.

You will never get the vast majority of people seeing travellers as equal stakeholders whilst ever a large number of travellers use society without contributing.

Uncomfortable truth, but there it is.

Subject: RE: A worrying circular from a folk club
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 02:40 PM

Fergie, I am a member of Mudcat and had no wish to be drawn into a personal "battle". However when someone who does not know me, my background, lineage, colour, creed, ethnic persuasion or religion suggests that I am racist I take exception. As I would suggest most people would. I have not put my name to my comments as even I understand they are tedious but I do retain the right to defend myself from thoughtless assertions from third parties who pontificate their "superior" knowledge of all things relating to the Travelling community. That's me done, Mr Carroll can have the floor to himself.