BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine

Subject: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 12:57 PM

News services are reporting a Malaysian passenger jet with 298 people aboard was shot down neat Donetsk in the eastern Ukraine.
Parts of the plane were scattered over a 15 mile area.

A missile from pro-Russian fighters in the eastern Ukraine is blamed in some reports but nothing certain as yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Rapparee
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 01:02 PM

I hope that the reports aren't true, but I suspect they are -- that the plane was shot down by a Bak missile.

Why in the name of God, Yahweh, and Allah would someone DO such a thing?

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 01:06 PM

The flight from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur last reported from Ukraine.

A Russian GRU separatist leader named Strelkov reportedly admitted that he ordered the missile strike, thinking the plane was Ukrainian. Not verified at present.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 01:09 PM

Another report- pictures of wreckage



A Malaysia Airlines passenger plane went down today after the airline said it had "lost contact" with one of its flight over Ukraine near the Russian border.

The Boeing 777 plane -- Flight MH17 from Amsterdam to Kuala Lampur with 280 passengers and 15 crew members on board -- had its "last known position was over Ukraine airspace," the airline said.

The plane had left Amsterdam at 12:15 p.m. (local time) and was estimated to arrive in Kuala Lampur International Airport on Friday at 6:10 a.m. (local time), according to Malaysia Airlines.

Flight radar shows the plane was lost somewhere on the eastern border of Ukraine.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 01:37 PM

Associated Press journalists reported seeing Buk missile launchers near the eastern Ukrainian town of Snizhde. The system is effective to 25000 metres.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 01:44 PM

Terror for terror's sake?! I hope the folks who did this are swiftly caught, tried,and punished by being put in a drone at 30000', and shot down so they can feel the horror they caused by they're cowardly action.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 01:56 PM

GRABOVO Ukraine (Reuters) - Dozens of bodies were scattered around the smouldering wreckage of a passenger jet that crashed in a field in eastern Ukraine on Thursday, a Reuters reporter said.

An emergency services rescue worker said at least 100 bodies had so far been found at the scene, near the village of Grabovo, and that debris from the wreckage was spread across an area up to about 15 km (nine miles) in diameter.

Broken pieces of the wings were marked with blue and red paint - the same colours as the emblem of the Malaysian airline which lost track of a Boeing 777 en route from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur that was carrying almost 300 people.

"I was working in the field on my tractor when I heard the sound of a plane and then a bang and shots. Then I saw the plane hit the ground and break in two. There was thick black smoke," said a witness, who gave his name only as Vladimir.

A separatist rebel from nearby Krasnyi Luch who gave his name only as Sergei said: "From my balcony I saw a plane begin to descend from a great height and then heard two explosions.

He denied the rebels had shot the plane down.

"This could happen only if it was a fighter jet or a surface-to-air missile (that shot it down)," he told Reuters, saying the rebels did not have weapons capable of shooting shoot down a plane at such a height.

All 295 people aboard the plane were killed, a Ukrainian interior ministry official said, blaming "terrorists" using a ground-to-air missile.

Ukraine's prime minister called the downing of the flight from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur a "catastrophe".

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 01:59 PM

On Wednesday, the Russian separatists shot down two Ukrainian Sukho1-25 fighter jets, one by Suk missile, the other by a portable air-missile device.
The Separatists have sophisticated equipment that has been supplied by Russia.

In an allied report, the Buk missile system is being supplied to Syria by a Russian supplier.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 02:15 PM

The Washington Post pushed that out to my phone app this morning - deja vu for Malaysian Airlines - what a horrible year. And for the Russian's encroaching on Ukraine, this could be the mistake to push them back out again because they eyes of the world are all the more upon them.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 02:34 PM

A Ukrainian transport plane was shot down today by Separatists. The Ukrainian air forces can't operate in Russian Separatist-held areas.

Rebels in the Donetsk Peoples Republic denied any responsibility for the attack on the Malaysian aircraft.

23 Americans were aboard the downed Boeing 777 plane. British passports were found on some victims and there were at least four French nationals and a number of Dutch.

Reports from Reuters and Associated Press.


Increased sanctions against Russia are expected and have been threatened by Obama if Russia doesn't change course in Ukraine.
Hundreds of civilians have been killed.
(Reuters)

Without outside help, a large portion of eastern Ukraine may be lost; a region with much of Ukrainian industrial output.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: bobad
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 04:12 PM

The mysterious leader of Ukrainian separatist rebels boasted of shooting down a Ukrainian military aircraft just before news broke that Malaysian Airlines MH17 crashed, according to reports.

An hour before news of the crash, Igor Strelkov reportedly wrote on Vkontakte, a popular Russian social media website, "In the district of Torez an An-26 was just shot down. It crashed somewhere near the Progress mine. We warned them not to fly in our skies."

The message was sent about 30 minutes after the plane is believed to have gone down. The post was later deleted and another post went up, blaming Ukrainian government forces for shooting down the passenger plane.

National Post

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Wesley S
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 04:32 PM

I'm just waiting for Fox News to blame this on Obama's weakness. You know it's coming.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 04:52 PM

The Russian Separatists have announced that they have the flight recorder (black box). We may never find out what it recorded.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: GUEST,Mrr at work
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 06:23 PM

Last time this happened it was the US who shot, and I had one of the most embarrassing finding-out-you-are-a-racist moments of my life because of it...

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 08:24 PM

Truly shocking: the fact that it's Malaysian Airlines again (after the disappearance of the other plane in March) has you wondering if it's sheer coincidence or some sort of conspiracy.
Having flown from Europe to various Asian destinations on a number of occasions it did cross my mind that you would almost inevitably cross one or other war zone at some point - Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, and now Ukraine. I understand that airlines are already altering their flight paths to avoid that part of Ukraine.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Musket
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 03:18 AM

Err.. That wasn't Musket...

Musket is 100% signed in rather than guest as of last week.

I didn't read what it said. Was I being eloquent?

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 05:03 AM

There can be little doubt what happened.
The separatist rebels have been shooting down government aircraft using Russian supplied missiles for some time.
It would not have been deliberate, and they will never admit responsibility.

Apart from the human tragedy, the most concerning issue is Putin's reckless enthusiasm for supplying advanced weapons to inflame such conflicts.
Without Putin's weapon supplies Assad would have been overthrown before Syria became such a catastrophe with no end remotely in sight.

If he starts interfering in the Baltic states there is a real threat to all our futures.

Why is Mudcat so obsessed only with Israel?

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 05:08 AM

Some odd turns of grammar in the spoof post, Musket: not like you!

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 07:38 AM

I would tend to agree with you Keith that there is little doubt as to what happened, especially considering the intercepted radio exchanges between "Separatists" and "Russian" Security Forces shortly after the aircraft was shot down. The culprits would most probably be "Separatists" operating a missile system smuggled to them by the Russians or looted from a Ukranian Army base (As the "Separatists" do not have aircraft there is no reason for the Ukranian Armed Forces to have such systems deployed in the area - there being no air threat).

Trouble is these missiles are normally part of a larger integrated air defence system with quite complex and comprehensive command and control networks. Deployed in isolation and being operated in "local" control it becomes very difficult to positively identify your target before firing.

The aircraft should have been safe at its normal cruising altitude and its route was considered safe as the flight plan must have been filed and approved.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Musket
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 07:46 AM

Once reasonable people know more, there will be reason to say "little doubt." Until then leave it to those for whom a blame in one direction is convenient for their agenda.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: bobad
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 08:03 AM

A tragedy on many levels including the fact that there were as many as 100 people heading to the AIDS 2014 conference in Melbourne among them scores of leading AIDS research experts.

"The cure for AIDS may have been on that plane, we just don't know," Trevor Stratton, an AIDS consultant who was attending a pre-event in Sydney, told the ABC network.

"You can't just help but wonder about the kind of expertise on that plane."

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 10:15 AM

What "agenda" musket?
I have none.

"little doubt" was accurate.
Only Russia disputes it, as they would.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: mayomick
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 11:15 AM

Not at all, Keith. China disputes it as well- as I'm sure Syria does.The people who said last year that there was "little doubt" about who gassed civilians in Ghouta are the same ones who say today that there is little doubt that Ukraine rebels are responsible .

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Rapparee
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 11:21 AM

It would have been quite reasonable for the Ukraine to have had a Bak missile system deployed in the Eastern Ukraine, which could have been captured by the rebels. But I am no expert on the Ukrainian air defense system.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Stu
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 11:28 AM

"Why is Mudcat so obsessed only with Israel?"

If you need to ask that question, you probably won't understand the answer.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: mayomick
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 12:30 PM

They say that the Buk weapons system is very difficult to work . If the rebels did have them they would have needed expert support - the missiles are guided by a radar station . The rebels couldn't have used BUKs without Russian back-up . If the Russians were involved they would have known that it wasn't a military aircraaft.
I read a comment to an article this morning saying "Putin's plane was scheduled to take the same route only one hour later."
Did anyone else see anything on this?

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 12:32 PM

Q:Why is Mudcat so obsessed only with Israel?

A: It isn't. Certain folks like yourself, FW, may be.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: robomatic
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 12:37 PM

Stu- Why don't you give it your best shot?

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Musket
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 01:33 PM

Curious that Keith thought i meant him.

I did, amongst others, but nice to him recognise his faults, even if he is too far up his own arse to address them.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 01:51 PM

it could be anyone who wishes to inflame the situation, even the CIA.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: pdq
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 03:39 PM

I will not guess who dunnit. Proof should come out eventually.

I just feel that it is no coinsidence that this is the second Maylasia Airlines Boeing 777 to fall out of the sky in the past few months.

Maylasia is 62% Muslim.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 03:52 PM

I suspect that Putin now finds himself with a big, big problem over this foul atrocity; and, up to this point, from his point of view, the Ukrainian situation was all going reasonably well.

There is no doubt that the revolution in Ukraine presented Russia and Putin with big problems. The most urgent and pressing was the potential for losing the warm water ports of the Crimean peninsula. Putin acted quickly, decisively and ruthlessly and annexed Crimea. This was almost certainly an illegal act but who was going to stop him?

Eastern Ukraine represented a bigger problem but Putin took the route of arming Russian-speaking Ukrainian separist insurgents (the sort of thing that the west regularly does in other parts of the world). The trouble is, as the west regularly finds, such insurgents can be unpredictable, ill-disciplined and impulsive. Now they've gone and shot down a civilian aircraft with missiles that Putin, almost certainly, supplied them with. Whatever the truth of the matter is, most of the world community is pointing the finger of blame at Putin and Russia. What are you going to do, Vladimir? For all our sakes, it better be something good!

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 04:09 PM

Curious that Keith thought i meant him.

Well, you did actually quote me in the post!

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Musket
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 04:39 PM

Amongst others, you aren't that special. Daft as a brush and can't help letting your Col. Blimp persona betray you, but just one of too many to be honest.

For instance, not even you would come out with what pdq just put.

Malaysia is also 46% men.

What's more, it is 54% women!

I thought the sick twats were posting on Mail Online, not Mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 04:52 PM

Inevitably I find myself thinking of previous times this kind of lethal stupidity has happened, mosr especially the time when Iran Air Flight 655, with 290 people on board, including 60 children, was shot down by US Navy cruiser USS vincennes, on July 3 1988.

Trigger happy military stupidity, rather than calculated terrorism, i suppose, as will no doubt turn out to be the case this time also, whoever turns out to have been responsible. The men of the Vincennes all received Combat action Ribbons, and the commander was given a Navy Commendation Medal at the end of the tour. I hope the people who did this will get treated a bit more fittingly. I rather suspect they will, if Putin has any say in it...

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 18 Jul 14 - 06:21 PM

sep-a-ra-tist ... I think ...? But definitely not "separist"!

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jul 14 - 05:24 AM



No.
You only quoted me.
That is how I knew you were referring to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jul 14 - 05:25 AM

That last referred to Musket's statement, "Amongst others"

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: mayomick
Date: 19 Jul 14 - 06:54 AM

up to this point, from his [Putin's]point of view, the Ukrainian situation was all going reasonably well.
The same happened in Syria last year . The situation was "all going reasonably well" for the Syrian army when the chemical attack on Ghouta occurred, which the Western media immediately blamed on the Syrian government . The media said at the time that it was "probably" a Syrian army commander acting without direct orders from Assad but that the regime that Assad headed was responsible
" Kerry publicly cited last week: intercepted communications telling Syrian military units to prepare for the chemical strikes.
"The Obama administration maintains it intercepted communications from a senior Syrian official on the use of chemical weapons.........."
The statement from Kiev yesterday :
"SBU intercepts phone conversations of separatists admitting downing a civilian plane...."

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: GUEST,SB
Date: 19 Jul 14 - 08:52 AM

Now the scum are stealing items from the passengers.

"Reports of looting have also emerged as victims' bodies and belongings remain strewn across the area two days after the crash.

Sky's Michelle Clifford, in Donetsk, said: "These reports are gaining currency about looting, that valuables, credit cards are being taken from bags from the wreckage, and in some cases from bodies."

====

Putin and his cronies should HANG for this. And in London all we get is pro-Russian biased news because the Evening Standard is owned by the f'ing Russian KGB. 'Boycot RT' is an active group on Facebook too. Lies, lies and propaganda. And #$%$ - now we hear that the terrorists are stealing "valuables, credit cards are being taken from bags from the wreckage, and in some cases from bodies." Absolute #$%$. Appalling country, appalling people. Marx must be turning in his grave.

====

This site will be desecrated and pillaged by both the terrorists and Russians. Only way to secure it is with a MASSIVE show of force by the international community - ideally flown in and supported by as much air power as possible.. Provocative - so was shooting down an airliner then making up BS excuses. The evidence will be destroyed and that will end all investigations. The Ukrainian "rebels/terrorists / Russians have no respect for human life - their history shows this all too well!

According to news the black boxes have been confiscated and are now in Russia - any bets they will have been "damaged beyond repair" in the crash.

====

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: GUEST,SB
Date: 19 Jul 14 - 08:54 AM

And was there a "MASSIVE show of force by the international community" - NO!!

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: GUEST,Wolfgang
Date: 19 Jul 14 - 09:12 AM

"Last time this happened it was the US who shot..." (Mrr)

Shooting down of civilian airliners between 1988 (the shooting down Mrr recollects) and today I could find:

September 1993: "...three Tupolev civilian airliners belonging to Transair Georgia were hit by missiles fired by rebels in Sukhumi, Abkhazia, Georgia. A total of 136 perished in the attacks." (Wikipedia)
The Abkhazian war of secession from Georgia was strongly supported by Russia. That might ring a bell.

October, 20th, 1998, "Rebels in eastern Congo shot down a Congo Airlines passenger jet" (Boston Globe). No Russian involvement!

October, 4th, 2001. A Ucrainian missile downs an Air Siberia plane killing all 78 on board.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jul 14 - 10:48 AM

When an Albanian refugee caravan was bombed in Kosovo, the US government/press insisted that it was done by the Yugoslav air force; until independent journalists went to the scene and photographed the bomb casings. After that they admitted it was a US bombing but claimed that it was a mistake. They never mentioned the fact that this particular caravan had been going farther inside Kosovo, as ordered by the Yugoslav government to get them out of a probable war zone near the border, and contrary to KLA orders to go across the border.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jul 14 - 10:51 AM

The rebels' stated position is that they have missiles which can shoot down low-flying aircraft such as attacking fighter jets and military transport planes coming in for a landing, but none that can hit a plane at the much higher altitude of the Malaysian airliner.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Stu
Date: 19 Jul 14 - 10:59 AM

"Stu- Why don't you give it your best shot?"

What's the point?

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Rapparee
Date: 19 Jul 14 - 11:49 AM

More than 250 people -- including infants and children -- are killed by a missile attack on an civilian aircraft. There is international outrage, but no hard evidence yet as to who fired the thing and such may never be released.

So you argue from media reports and rumors. You call each other names, insult each other. Why? Because you are impotent to do anything else.

Like so many before me, I shall never post again to any thread that has the slightest political overtones.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 20 Jul 14 - 05:36 AM

Politics makes me want to puke!

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 20 Jul 14 - 10:15 AM

politics is what people do - you can't get away from what people do

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: mayomick
Date: 20 Jul 14 - 10:53 AM

This is from a Russian facebook friend.

First traces of the warhead. This was not BUK-M1

Source: http://guruinterneta.livejournal.com/32590.html

Pin warhead! Missiles used to hit air targets use a special warhead, which is only characterisitc for them with very specific traces. It consists of a bundle of sharpened pins, which are sometimes welded together (sometimes not). An opening charge is installed behind this bundle, this is basically what the "pin and shrapnel" warhead consists of. When it approaches the target at the minimal distance the warhead explodes the opening charge and this bundle of pins flies to the target at almost cosmic speed. When hitting the target such pin – only by its kinetic energy – is capable to shoot through the plane destroying the internal structure of the aircraft and completely crashing the on-board equipment. The pin kinetics is so powerful that it can even split the titanium spar in halves. Such warhead has one big advantage – the missile does not need to be perfectly accurate – it explodes before contacting the target and the pins are shot in the direction of the airplane n a cone. Even if only 2-3% of these pins hit the target, the plane is doomed – a hole in the wing or fuselage, or simply damaged cladding of the plane flying at trans-sonic speed the enormous relative airflow will destroy the damaged wing up to the very spar in less than a minute. If there is a dozen of such holes – there is simply no chance for anything.

But this is not the main point. Pin and shrapnel warheads are mainly used on air-to-air missiles because of their compact size. The anti-aircraft defense systems prefer to use high explosive and shrapnel warheads, because in a number of cases they are more efficient than pin and shrapnel ones. The picture we have here shows cladding damage characteristic for pin and shrapnel warheads. High explosive and shrapnel warhead damage looks different. This means that no BUK system hit this aircraft. Here we are dealing with either R-27 Topor or R-73 missiles, which Ukrainians have plenty of and which are installed on MIG-29 and SU-27
Photo: First traces of the warhead. This was not BUK-M1

Source: http://guruinterneta.livejournal.com/32590.html

Pin warhead! Missiles used to hit air targets use a special warhead, which is only characterisitc for them with very specific traces. It consists of a bundle of sharpened pins, which are sometimes welded together (sometimes not). An opening charge is installed behind this bundle, this is basically what the "pin and shrapnel" warhead consists of. When it approaches the target at the minimal distance the warhead explodes the opening charge and this bundle of pins flies to the target at almost cosmic speed. When hitting the target such pin – only by its kinetic energy – is capable to shoot through the plane destroying the internal structure of the aircraft and completely crashing the on-board equipment. The pin kinetics is so powerful that it can even split the titanium spar in halves. Such warhead has one big advantage – the missile does not need to be perfectly accurate – it explodes before contacting the target and the pins are shot in the direction of the airplane n a cone. Even if only 2-3% of these pins hit the target, the plane is doomed – a hole in the wing or fuselage, or simply damaged cladding of the plane flying at trans-sonic speed the enormous relative airflow will destroy the damaged wing up to the very spar in less than a minute. If there is a dozen of such holes – there is simply no chance for anything.

But this is not the main point. Pin and shrapnel warheads are mainly used on air-to-air missiles because of their compact size. The anti-aircraft defense systems prefer to use high explosive and shrapnel warheads, because in a number of cases they are more efficient than pin and shrapnel ones. The picture we have here shows cladding damage characteristic for pin and shrapnel warheads. High explosive and shrapnel warhead damage looks different. This means that no BUK system hit this aircraft. Here we are dealing with either R-27 Topor or R-73 missiles, which Ukrainians have plenty of and which are installed on MIG-29 and SU-27
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Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jul 14 - 11:04 AM

You are very gullible Mick.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 20 Jul 14 - 11:39 AM

This is one act of war that I expect will never be definitively proven because the primary evidence will not be made available to Western countries. Much looting of the scene has apparently taken place, and Ukraine separatists are impeding expert investigation, according to various news sources.

I am saddened by the useless deaths of the passengers and crew of the plane by trigger happy thugs.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: bobad
Date: 20 Jul 14 - 02:05 PM

Just when the news out of eastern Ukraine couldn't get any worse, it did. Separatists controlling the area of of the MH17 wreckage have declared that they can only ensure international investigators will have access to the crash site if Ukraine agrees to a truce: "We declare that we will guarantee the safety of international experts on the scene as soon as Kiev concludes a ceasefire agreement," said Andre Purgin, a senior leader of the self-declared Donetsk People's Republic. The declaration amounts to blackmail, as Nina Ivanovna put it; The separatists are holding the bodies of MH17 passengers hostage in exchange for territory.

New Republic

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 20 Jul 14 - 02:28 PM

Saw film strip on BBC news today, showing a Separatist carrying what looks like the flight recorder (black box). It has been previously reported that they took the recorder. The rebels say that they will hand over the recorder to the International team. ? Could it be compromised? Inn any case, it will have indication of loss of all systems, but that would be expected.

BBC and Al Jazeera both had film clips of what looks like the missile launcher system that fires Buk missiles being moved, but questionable as to where the film was shot. It was indicated that it was being removed from Separatist territory to Russia.

The Inspection group was not allowed complete access to the sites (kept out by armed gunmen) until after it had been picked over by the Separatists. (See BBC news) Any missile fragments may have been removed.

200 of the bodies have been put in refrigerated box cars by the Separatists. (BBC news)

Ukrainian forces do not currently have access to Separatist-held territory; it is doubtful that Ukraine will ever be able to reclaim their eastern territories.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: mayomick
Date: 21 Jul 14 - 08:18 AM

I am very gullible , Keith but not as gullible as the people who got on board that plane.

I assume they were gullible but it could be the case that they were not advised at check-in that they were going to be flying over a war zone whose airspace was controlled by "terrorists". Perhaps they hadn't been warned before getting aboard that these terrorists were in possession of Russian-supplied missiles capable of bringing down their aircraft . It could be they were not aware of the fact that the US civil aviation authority had forbidden flights over the Ukraine war zone .

I posted that thing I was sent by a facebook friend to give some indication of what is being said outside of the Western media, which had already concluded within 12 hours that the downing of the aircraft was the work of "Putin's missile". The pro-Russian piece sounds reasonable but I don't have the expertise to judge . I was hoping that the military types here might give their opinions.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jul 14 - 08:25 AM

It was in Russian.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: mayomick
Date: 21 Jul 14 - 08:33 AM

The stuff in yesterday's papers and on Rupert Murdoch's Sky News channel about people in east Ukraine looting the corpses reminded me of the treatment given by Murdoch to the Liverpool soccer club fans who they accused of corpse looting after nearly a hundred fans were crushed to death at Hillsborough in 1989 . Murdoch's paper apologized for its Hillsborough headline only last year .Some people still believe whatever the Sun says as if it's the gospel and Murdoch is Jesus .

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Musket
Date: 21 Jul 14 - 08:38 AM

Shh.. Don't let Keith know that! His total social intercourse comprises of quoting from right wing reactionary press and defying people to laugh at him.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: mayomick
Date: 21 Jul 14 - 08:55 AM

The source is Russian , Keith , but do you think what it says in translation sounds reasonably accurate ? Other reports linked to by the same Russian fb friend say that a missile from a BUK missile system would have blown the plane up in the sky and caused a highly visible explosion in the sky. There would have been no passengers seen falling as was the case with Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 because the passengers would have blown up with the aircraft if it had been hit by a BUK missile. Do you think that sounds true ?

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Jul 14 - 10:25 AM

Keith , but do you think

Absolutely not.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jul 14 - 11:16 AM

Lusitania parallels, anyone???

Waiting for Mr Putin to come up with denials similar to those of the German Government in 1915.

Just thinking out loud....

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: mayomick
Date: 21 Jul 14 - 12:26 PM

the line coming from Kiev is that rebels thought they were shooting down a troop carrier. It seems to me that the jet was flying too high for it to have been a troop carrier bound for some place in the Ukraine .The crash site is about 30 miles from the Ukraine-Russia border, the plane was flying at over 30,000 ft . If the rebels did shoot it down they must surely have known it was heading towards Russia , which a Ukraine military troop carrier obviously would not have been doing .

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jul 14 - 01:12 PM

Other reports linked to by the same Russian fb friend say that a missile from a BUK missile system would have blown the plane up in the sky and caused a highly visible explosion in the sky

The BUK missile explodes 60m before impact sending a hail of fragments at the target.
This would cause the fuselage to break up and produce exactly what was seen.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: GUEST,hg
Date: 21 Jul 14 - 06:08 PM

I wonder if it was an attempt to shoot Putin down as he returned from the BRICS conference. His jet was in the area 30 minutes earlier. The planes do look alike.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 02:48 AM

Its all about the missile launcher.
Ukrainians say it was heading for Russia after the incident, Russians say they have proof that it went back into Ukrainian "government" controlled area.

When we know for sure who pressed the button, the reasons will become more apparent.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: GUEST,giovanni
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 03:37 AM

And for those involved in the blame game, whether there's "little doubt" in your mind or not - remember that Lockerbie happened 6 months after the US shot down an Iranian airliner.

Then after several years of legal procedures, most of which have now proven to have been faulty and/or corrupt and directly in breach of international law, Libya got the blame. Because someone needed them to be blamed.

As indeed someone had previously needed to blame Libya after a known Congolese terrorist brought down a French airliner going from Brazzaville to Paris, with zero link to anything Libyan.

As of now, the West's propaganda machine is still in cold war mode, so will take any opportunity to blame Russia for stuff (even though Putin was one of very few to recognise that the Libyan "revolution" was not all it might have seemed. And he was right about that).

So don't be too hasty.......

g

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Musket
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 03:48 AM

Gather round and read the post above.

One of those internet conspiracy theories that we read about... PM it to Michael rather than post it, he is into that sort of thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 05:01 AM

Re post above: I avoid, as is known, even reading posts from the egregious Mather, let alone responding; but as I have said before, one's own name leaps out, and one has read before being aware who the poster is, which is what has happened here; and for once in a way, I feel a response to the general point is required in my own interests.

Far from being a pushover for trendy conspiracy theories, I despise pretty well every one of them. I am sure that Neil Armstrong walked on the Moon not on the Utah desert. I am convinced that Myra Hindley died in Holloway & was buried, and that they didn't surreptitiously release her and bury a coffin full of bricks because they knew that public opinion would not countenance her ever getting out...

Nevertheless: as to both Marilyn Monroe & ex-Princess Diana, OTOH, their deaths were just too peculiarly convenient to certain well-placed personages, and both died in a fashion that any apprentice special-agent could engineer in his sleep; to say nothing of such awkward questions as, would a trusted and experienced professional driver ever have allowed himself to get drunk while at work with a distinguished passenger, unless his drinks had been spiked or interfered with in some way? So I continue, to put it no higher, to suspect that both these not dissimilar deaths were probably not accidental or suicidal, but contrived. That is the current limit of my alleged addiction to belief in any such nefarious phenomena.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Musket
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 05:21 AM

Eeh. As Bob Hoskins once famously said, "It's nice to talk."

Perhaps you could review some of my essays, as you like reading what I put?

I reckon I am going to hide a few cherry bombs inside long paragraphs for you. We'll soon have you off the sulking step...

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Lighter
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 08:30 AM

Even Wackipedia goes only so far as to say there that MM and JFK "reportedly" had an affair.

Doesn't quite add up to murder, does it?

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: mayomick
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 10:43 AM

I can understand people mocking conspiracy theories after official inquiries have concluded . In the case of Flight MH17, people who pointed to the lack of proof about the downing being the work of pro-Russian rebels were being called conspiracy loons within hours of the plane hitting the ground .

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Musket
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 10:59 AM

It isnt just an excuse to mock, not that I for one need an excuse for pointing and laughing at people who should know better..

Its how unhelpful they can be. A teacher friend told of when talking of Newtonian concepts, he spoke of the relative weight and constant mass of the astronauts on the moon and one boy pointed his father, who was not to be contradicted, told him it was a desert in Arizona etc. The poor boy ran schoolboy cruelty for months after that.

Granted, I told mine the first wind farms we ever saw were to combat global warming by cooling the fields and that the large black plastic sacks in fields after cutting the hay were in fact sleeping bags for cows on night shift.

The time such things become dangerous is when conspiracy grows legs and muddies the search for truth.

The relatives of Princess Diana and Dodi al Fayed must hurt like fuck whilst irresponsible insensitive bastards enjoy their little games, getting a hard on from upsetting others.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: bobad
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 11:08 AM

U.S. publishes trajectory of missile it says downed MH17

Video of Buk missile launcher in the town of Snizhne

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 11:33 AM

Caught the tailend of another bit of Musketry -- can't always help it. It's bits like

"getting a hard on from upsetting others"

that deter me from reading any of his posts if my eye can avoid them. Can he really not find more seemly modes of expression? Nasty little vulgarian. Did he, I wonder, carry on like that in meetings of all those important bodies [NHS Trusts & suchlike IIRC] that he never tires of telling us he used to chair, & was honoured by HMQ for doing so? If not, then why should we have to put up with it? Still up on the sulky step till he learns to behave something like a gentleman.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Musket
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 11:56 AM

Fook me, he can't even ignore people successfully..

Sorry, I shouldn't accuse old codgers of getting a stiffy. Double insult and all that. Luckily, it was a metaphorical stiffy eh?

The problem is, he wants me to behave like a gentleman. Presumably wants me to take a glove off, waft it in his face and call him a cad for joining in the encouragement of Israeli bombing of civilians.

Gentleman... Let me see now.

"If you were a gentleman, you wouldn't have done that!"

"If you were a lady, you wouldn't speak with your mouth full."

Whoops, that's buggered my chances of vacating his sulky step.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: robomatic
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 12:32 PM

I think enough of the facts are in, and now the mud is being spread. You can identify the parties and the spreading ink. From this point, the argument will be over what constitutes 'fact'.

My sympathies to the Netherlanders! And everyone on Malaysian Air Flight 17, and to their relatives and loved ones.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: bobad
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 01:41 PM

It doesn't get much more disgusting than this: The Malaysia Airlines Corpses Were Used as a Sickening PR Stunt for the Ukrainian Rebels' Fake Republic

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 01:48 PM

What have the rebels been doing to the wreckage, so busily all these days?
Nothing should have been touched before the investigation team got there.
I can think of no innocent explanation.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 03:01 PM

The wreckage was picked over not only by the rebels but by nearby dwellers seeking cash and valuables. BBC news and photos.

Now two experts have found a piece of wreckage with evidence of fragments from a Buk missile. NY Times, today.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: GUEST,Iain
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 03:03 PM

Surely the real question to be asked is why a commercial airline was overflying a known warzone? To put passengers's lives at risk just to save a bit of jet fuel strikes me as being crimminally irresponsible.
Whenever a ragtag semi guerilla army has it's hands in the toybox of modern munitions it is a pretty safe bet that events will occurr that should not. To further add to the confusion many varied agendas are being pursued in the area. This makes pointing the finger accurately almost impossible. Perhaps the real truth will emerge several decades down the road.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 03:20 PM

IATA represents some 240 major carriers; it has complained, but did not warn its members away from the Ukraine.

The U. S. and I believe the UK forbid flights over the territory.

Iain, I agree, I can't understand why IATA didn't issue a general warning.

Perhaps, because the path is used by many carriers, they failed to act because jet fuel costs would have increased for the airlines using that path.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 03:56 PM

The last several posts seem to be blaming the victims (the Airline and IATA) for MH17 being shot down. Civilian aircraft had been flying that route, just outside the hot zone without incident. Some trigger happy Russian or Russian proxy fired that missile either on purpose or by mistake...the result is still the same. Period end of story; don't blame the victims.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 04:19 PM

Hey, John: ya gotts to assume some intelligence on the part of the airline folks not to route flights thru a war zone -

Or in this case, not.

Stupidity has its consequences.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 03:29 AM

The decision is left to individual airlines.
BA did not overfly.

Had this not happened, we should still be concerned about Putin's policy towards Ukraine, especially his supplying powerful weaponry to the separatists.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Musket
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 03:43 AM

If I think of recent flights over the last year alone I have been on, I noticed we have flown over the disputed Azeri / Armenian zone, Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, Yemen, Sudan, Somalia, Northern Thailand... (For Abu Dhabi, Dubai, Bangkok and Durban.). Looking at Google Earth, I am sure Ukraine too, the others are ones I noticed when looking at the in flight "where the hell are we" screens.

You like to think something flying at 38,000' at almost 600 mph needs hardware only government forces have access to....

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 11:41 AM

You like to think something flying at 38,000' at almost 600 mph needs hardware only government forces have access to..

Agree Musket.
The real issue is Putin delivering powerful and sophisticated weaponry to rag-tag militias.
Also to Assad's Syria.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 02:22 PM

The pro-Russian fighters are well-armed and dressed, and under a unified command. Some division leaders may act too much on their own, but I would not call these rebels "rag-tag."

With the formation of the Donetsk Peoples Republic, and the Lugansk Peoples Republic, now merged into the Federal State of Novorossiya, they are the advance forces of the Russian takeover of the eastern part of Ukraine.

Igor Girkin is in charge of the military forces.

The region is known as Donbass to Russians, and by them has long been considered an integral part of Russia.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 02:41 PM

They are very well armed and dressed, but they are untrained civilians in Russian army kit.
They are indisciplined and unaccountable to anyone.
The aviation inspectors were turned back by some who were drunk and firing in the air.
It is scary that they are playing around with such things as high-altitude sams.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 02:49 PM

Southern Oblasts, from Kharkiv on the east, Odessa on the south, and Moldova on the west, are considered by Separatists to be part of Novorossiya.

This area probably will be united with Russia in the next three years. The Crimea already has been absorbed.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 02:56 PM

I know.
I do not think that Putin should arm them.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 04:08 PM

Here's something I think should be taught in high school in all countries:

It's easy to hire criminals to do your dirty work, it's very hard to get them to stop when you want them to. This applies whether you are an industrialist, a rebel, a prime minister or a mob boss.

Examples from history should be provided.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 04:40 PM

The rebel forces are soldiers recruited from the Russian segment of the Ukraine, some with advanced training in Russia. According to some reports, actual citizens of Russia are involved, especially in the operation of the more sophisticated hardware.
They may be regarded as "terrorists" (Ukraine government) or "criminals" (some of the western press) or rebels, but they consider themselves to be Russian patriots.

Their missiles shot down two more Ukraine jets today; the Ukraine seems unable to use airpower against the Separatists.

Here in Alberta, with a large Ukrainian population (350,000) in the central belt centered on Edmonton, events are being closely watched. The fear is that the entire Ukraine will eventually be reabsorbed by Russia.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 04:54 PM

Over 1.2 million Canadians are of Ukrainian origin.

The leaders of the Donetsk Republic are Russian citizens from Moscow. Edmonton Journal (Alberta).

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 07:07 PM

Examples from history should be provided.

The U.S. alone provides thousands! e.g. Noriega. Iran-Contra. Bay of Pigs. Pinochet. The Mujahideen. & etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: GUEST,Little Robyn
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 10:32 PM

Greg F the news has been showing that many planes flew over a similar route within the past week - it's a normal route and considered safe.
Normal commercial plane routes.
If you do Facebook, you can follow events as a memorial to one of the passengers, Cornelius, known as Cor Pan
Robyn

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: mayomick
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 11:48 AM

No it wasn't a normal route or considered safe :America's aviation authority had forbidden planes flying over that route. I don't know whether or not airplanes from other countries have since been banned .

It seems absolutely crazy that passengers have to spend hours going through airport check-ins , are not allowed to carry liquids aboard a flight and generally get snooped on by organizations like the NSA and GCHQ . At the same time airlines are allowed fly passengers over a war zone where these same state agencies claim armed terrorist militias operate who have the resources and mentalities to bring down airplanes.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 11:57 AM

Would you say the plane was asking for it?

What is your view of girls who are raped walking after dark?

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: mayomick
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 12:10 PM

The lack of satellite pics from the US suggests and reliance on youtube pics videos by American diplomats suggests to me that the information in this article may have substance to it.
"A source within the Ukrainian defense department claims that Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 was accidentally shot down by Ukrainian troops during a military exercise in near Donetsk which took place on July 17.

'"On July 17 the commanding officer of 156th Anti-Aircraft Regiment was instructed to conduct a training exercise of ground troops stationed near Donetsk, which involved deploying the troops, and carrying out a routine tracking and destroying of targets with the Buk-M1 missile," the source told RIA Novosti.

"Although actual use of the rockets was not intended, they were accidentally fired off when two Sukhoi Su-25 combat aircraft flew parallel with but at a different altitude than the Boeing 777, claims the source. When the three aircraft merged and became a single dot on the missile 's radar system, the Buk-M1 automatically chose the larger target, leading to the demise of MH17.

It is worth noting that RIA Novosti is Russian state media, although the veracity of the story is no less credible than YouTube videos uploaded by the Ukrainian government, which have been relied upon by both Kiev and Washington as the main source of evidence for the contention that separatist rebels were responsible for downing the airliner.

"In addition, the information correlates with what former AP and Newsweek investigative journalist Robert Parry was told by his intelligence source, which was that the U.S. is in possession of satellite imagery which shows men wearing Ukrainian army uniforms firing the missile system that brought down MH17.

"Given that Parry won awards for his work exposing the Iran Contra scandal, one would imagine that he has built up some credible and influential sources over the past few decades.

"Kiev has failed to release transcripts from air traffic control communications which were seized by Ukrainian security services immediately after the incident, although pilots on board an Air India Dreamliner which was flying just 90 seconds behind Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 say they heard Ukrainian air traffic control give the order for the doomed plane to change route minutes before MH17 was shot down by a missile.

"Russia has presented radar evidence which it claims shows Ukrainian fighter jets in the vicinity of MH17 shortly before it was shot down.

http://www.infowars.com/kiev-source-ukraine-accidentally-shot-down-mh17-during-exercises/

*********************

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 01:42 PM

Your "infowars" site is run by Alex Jones.

"] He has accused the U.S. government of being involved in the Oklahoma City bombing,[9] the September 11 attacks,[10] the filming of fake Moon landings to hide NASA's secret technology[11] and the killing of "thousands of astronauts".[12] He believes that government and big business have colluded to create a New World Order through "manufactured economic crises, sophisticated surveillance tech and—above all—inside-job terror attacks that fuel exploitable hysteria".[13] Jones describes himself as a libertarian and a paleoconservative. The Southern Poverty Law Center describes Jones as "the most prolific conspiracy theorist in contemporary America."[14]

In January 2013, Jones was invited to speak on Piers Morgan's show after promoting an online petition to deport Morgan due to his support of gun control laws.[48] The interview turned into "a one-person shoutfest, as Jones riffed about guns, oppressive government, the flag, his ancestors' role in Texan independence, and what flag Morgan would have on his tights if they wrestled".

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: GUEST,UKIE GUEST
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 02:59 PM

If you want the truth about what is behind the "Ukraine Crisis should go here 

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 03:48 PM

"Consortiumnews"-- unverified blogs.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 05:01 PM

Robert Parry is a highly respected journalist. Btw, the only proof the US has presented so far has been provided by the Ukraine government and consists of social media which is highly malleable and very easily manipulated. Read the transcript of this briefing: Zero Evidence from a highly based source.
Is this your "verified source"?

This is a false flag operation to vilify Russia and the separatists. It has an underlying agenda that has nothing to do with democracy in Ukraine. Recall the intelligence on Iraq weapons of mass destruction? It was false in tell used to get us into an ill advised war. Obviously the government can't be trusted when they say they have intelligence unless they present it.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Jul 14 - 12:12 PM

Mr. Parry now seems to be an apologist for the Russians.

The objective of Putin is obvious; having taken Crimea, he wants to add the Donbass region to Russia. The Separatists are well-armed with Russian equipment, and are the advance element of the move by Putin.
Russian aid has been well-documented by reporters from most media.

The Ukrainian government seems hopeless in attempting to deal with the pro-Russians and the Donetsk and Lugansk regions seem firmly under Separatist control.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: GUEST,iain
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 05:09 AM

In most parts of the world an airline passenger is subjected to all sorts of humiliating ordeals before being allowed to board a plane, in case they are potential shoebombers ot underpants bombers or terrorists of a similar ilk. Having carefully vetted all the passengers to ensure the aircfraft cannot be destroyed by any of the passengers, the governments responsible totally abrogate their responsibilities and allow the plane to fly through contested airspace where there is a war occurring 24/7.
This would seem a total disconnect to me.
What is the true function of all the security for boarding if the powers that be could not give a s***t once the plane is airbourne?

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 11:41 AM

The US reaps what it sows.

It set the standard for blowing civilian airliners out of the sky way back in 1988. And it set a precedent for Crimea's secession when it agitated for Kosovo's secession from Serbia.

It is interesting to recall what George Bush Snr said after Iranian Air Flight 655 was shot down with the loss of 290 lives, mainly women and including 60 children: ""I will never apologize for the United States—I don't care what the facts are." Whether he was speaking for all the American People I don't know, but it didn't do his presidential election campaign any harm.

There are times when the US would be well advised to keep quiet.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 01:22 PM

George H.W. Bush was and is a jackass & his son was and is an asshole. Sounds like the old "My country right or wrong" bullshit.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 01:35 PM

Iranian Flight 655 is still generating controversy. According to the commander of the Vincennes, they confused it with a Tomcat F-14A fighter (supplied to Iran by Grumann in the 1970s). They shot it down when they received no response to radio messages. The plane was emitting the typical signal, Mode III Civilian Code, but not Military Code II.

Although the U. S. did not apologize or admit legal responsibility for the blunder, it paid $61.8 million in compensation to relatives of passengers and crew.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 04:23 PM

The commanding officer of another IS warship in the vicinity of the Vincennes said the atrocity "marked the horrifying climax to Captain Rogers's aggressiveness, first seen four weeks ago."

The way the US has behaved - the Pentagon's initial tissue of lies; VP Bush's crass response; honouring Captain Rogers; the refusal to apologise for a catastrophe entirely and unequivocally of its own making - is shameful. That the US now presumes to lecture Putin just beggars belief.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: robomatic
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 04:28 PM

The shooting down of the Iranian jet by the Vincennes was uniquely horrible because it was due to poor or misidentification. The shooting down of KAL007 was uniquely horrible because it was properly identified as civilian and yet the Russian interceptor obeyed orders to shoot it down anyway. The shooting down of Malaysian MH17 was uniquely horrible because it was shot down almost casually with barely an attempt at identification.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 04:56 PM

So was it "poor" identification or "misidentification" robomatic? The Iranian plane was signalling on a civilian channel (contrary to one of the Pentagon's lies), and contrary to the Vincennes crew's claims it was climbing towards 12000ft not diving towards the Vincennes from lower altitude. Big difference. Sounds like the US Navy was too confused to attempt much in the way of identification.

KAL007 was shot down by a Soviet interceptor. And yes, I suppose the US is not as bad as the USSR. You must be proud.

What does "barely an attempt at identification" mean, and on what is that claim based? Maybe it would be wiser to wait till we know a bit more/ The Pentagon's behaviour re IAF655 should have taught us to be wary of early claims by one vested interest or another.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: bobad
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 05:14 PM

There is overwhelming, but largely circumstantial evidence that Russian-backed rebels mistakenly brought down the Boeing 777, killing all 298 people on board, having mistaken it for a Ukrainian military aircraft.

It is almost certain the aircraft was brought down by a Russian-made SA-11 missile fired from a Buk mobile launcher that had crossed into Ukraine from Russia.

A spokesman for McCue & Partners said in a statement: "There has been talk of civil suits against Malaysia Airlines, but those immediately responsible are not only the separatists who are alleged to have fired the rocket at Flight MH17, causing the death of hundreds of innocent victims, but those, be they states, individuals or other entities, who provided them with financial and material support and the means to do so.

Vladimir Putin facing multi-million dollar lawsuit for aiding separatists who shot down MH17, lawyers say

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 07:10 PM

argely circumstantial evidence

Circumstantial evidence at least 50% of the time isn't, Boo.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 09:30 PM

"Circumstantial evidence at least 50% of the time isn't, Boo."

Greg F., where did you get that statistic? Please provide the source for your statement, or did you just pull it out of thin air?
Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 03:41 AM

The Iranians were advised not to let the aircraft take off on it's flight from Bandar Abbas to Dubai - They ignored that advice.

There was Iranian Air Force activity in the area as well as an ongoing maritime incident that involved the USS Vincennes, a USN Aegis Missile Cruiser.

The Aegis System on the USS Vincennes automatically "identifies" and prioritises threats that it "sees" then fires automatically and that is what happened to the Iranian Airbus in 1988. Under the "Rules of Engagement" in force at the time the USS Vincennes was justified in firing.

In the 1960s during the Indonesian confrontation with Malaya, the Guided Missile Destroyer HMS Devonshire was advised enroute to Singapore that attack by Indonesian "Badger" Tu-16 bombers was likely and that it was not known whether or not these aircraft were armed with "stand-off" Kelt Missiles. Devonshire's missile systems relied on manual firing and only the Commanding Officer could give that command. An airborne radar was detected operating in "Search" Mode and the ship went to action stations with both Director and Launcher tracking the target, at this point the General Operations Plot was started. As the target closed to a point where a "stand-off" weapon could be fired the characteristics of the airborne radar went from "Search" to "Acquired" Mode. The Gunnery Officer asked for permission to fire, the Captain refused and stated that he wanted visual confirmation as to the identification of the target aircraft. By this stage the 4.5" Guns on the Devonshire were also tracking the target. After a few minutes the Director Operator for the 4.5" Guns reported - "Aircraft, Aircraft, Aircraft, bearing whatever it was - aircraft identified as Boeing 707 - Civilian aircraft, repeat civilian aircraft". The Captain ordered all weapons systems to train on safe bearings. When the General Operations Plot was examined, the juncture at which the airborne radar went from Search to Acquired the aircraft, the ship and the radar beacon for Kuala Lumpur Airport were in line, the Captain of HMS Devonshire would have been perfectly justified in firing at that point, he chose not to.

Time had moved on a great deal from 1964 to 1988 the Captain of the USS Vincennes potentially faced a far higher threat level and did not have the luxury of choice open to the Captain of HMS Devonshire - It was why the Aegis Defence System was invented.

The Missile system that brought down the Malaysian Airliner is supposed to be used as part of an integrated air defence system designed to protect mobile armoured formations, used as it is supposed to be used and operated the target aircraft would have been identified, but if that mobile missile launcher was operated as I believe it was in this case "In Local" control then no such target identification would have been possible all the operator would have seen would have been a blip on his radar with no further information. He fired thinking that this was a Ukrainian Military Transport.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: mayomick
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 06:07 AM

John from Sunset Coast . I don't know how accurate the 50% figure is but this from the wiki entry on circumstantial evidence deals with the perception of such evidence being of less value than direct evidence :

"Indeed, the common metaphor for the strongest possible evidence in any case—the "smoking gun"—is an example of proof based on circumstantial evidence. Similarly, fingerprint evidence, videotapes, sound recordings, photographs, and many other examples of physical evidence that support the drawing of an inference, i.e., circumstantial evidence, are considered very strong possible evidence."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumstantial_evidence

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 09:58 AM

Oh, Greg F., while you're compiling your references to circumstantial evidence, you also might tell us what you mean by "50% of the time isn't."

Are you saying that 50% of the time circumstantial evidence isn't circumstantial evidence? Are you saying that 50% of the time circumstantial evidence is actually direct evidence? Are you saying that 50% of the time circumstantial evidence is actually no evidence at all? Is it possible that circumstantial evidence can be so overwhelming, as to overcome substantial and convincing doubt as to guilt?

You might want to start, if you haven't already, with mayomick's post of earlier this morning. However, I do recall from many of your posts over the years that you are not a fan of wikipedia. Well, ya gotta start somewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 11:12 AM

It troubles me that all the "evidence" the US has for the claims they are making are coming through social media. Do you know how easy it is to manipulate public opinion through social media?- With no real accountability I might add. With all the info that the NSA has at its disposal, it could hack to its heart's content. Does anyone recall Operation Mockingbird? Seems to me that the CIA is having a field day with the internet.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 11:31 AM

Are you saying that 50% of the time circumstantial evidence isn't circumstantial evidence? Are you saying that 50% of the time circumstantial evidence is actually direct evidence? Are you saying that 50% of the time circumstantial evidence is actually no evidence at all? Is it possible that circumstantial evidence can be so overwhelming, as to overcome substantial and convincing doubt as to guilt?

All of those possibilities are worth thinking, about, John - all worth thinking about. Let us know if you come to any conclusions.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 12:30 PM

I'm guessing by your not posting a source, you have none. I'm also guessing that you don't really understand what you wrote the other day...it really made no sense. You couldn't even give an opinion as to what you meant, except to say its (they're) possibility worth thinking about. It's not for me to tell you what you mean...its your job to be clear.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 01:00 PM

Terribus, a good summary.
In the Vincennes incident, there also seems to have been confusion on the part of the Iranian crew, who may have thought that the messages were aimed at another aircraft. In a war zone, there is little time for procrastination.

The missile launch system for the Buk missiles has been described as too complicated for a force such as the Separatists. The system was invented by the Russians in the 1970s, and would be familiar to many soldiers trained for it in the last 30 years.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 01:21 PM

Latest news suggests - from the flight recorder on MH17 - that the plane was hit by shrapnel from an exploding rocket rather than a direct hit by rocket, causing massive "explosive decompression" of the plane.
So no doubt "they" will now say "of course we weren't aiming at the plane"...............

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 01:22 PM

Yes, John, you are most certainly guessing. Nothing new there.

But your guiesses are not correct. Nothing new there, either.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 02:30 PM

"But your guiesses[sic]are not correct."

Oh, then you have post a source. I must have missed it. Sure I did.
You can bob and weave and duck, but you can't run and hide. Either provide us with back up, or reasoned answers as to what YOU mean, or we'll know you got nothin'.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 03:08 PM

Either provide us with back up, or reasoned answers as to what YOU mean

Like you do? Yeah, right.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 03:28 PM

A s noted before, the Buk missiles explode in proximity, showering the target with shrapnel-type fragments.
They do not make a "direct hit."

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 03:29 PM

I just want to know what you meant when you wrote, "Circumstantial evidence at least 50% of the time isn't, Boo." You just float around it providing no explanation, because you don't even understand what you yourself type. Oh, I really didn't and don't expect a source for that statement, which, of course, you now ignore.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: bobad
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 04:09 PM

Greg coherent at least 50% of the time isn't.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 02:14 AM

"from the flight recorder on MH17 - that the plane was hit by shrapnel from an exploding rocket rather than a direct hit by rocket, causing massive "explosive decompression" of the plane.
So no doubt "they" will now say "of course we weren't aiming at the plane" - Tattie Bogle

"As noted before, the Buk missiles explode in proximity, showering the target with shrapnel-type fragments." - Q

It is called a TTB (Target Triggered Burst) missiles can either make a direct hit or be triggered by a proximity fuse. This feature allows the missiles to be test fired against extremely expensive "Pilot-less Target Aircraft" without blowing them out off the sky.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 10:52 AM

Thanks for the explanation, Teribus. - you obviously know a lot more about these things! (not being sarcastic, in case you might think that!)

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 12:37 PM

The Buk missile and its launcher, the M1-2 system, is clearly described in Wikipedia, "Buk Missile System."
It is a mobile system, with both aquisition and targeting radar, a command unit, missile launchers and logistics element, mounted on a tracked vehicle.
"In general, the system identifies potential targets (radar), selects a particular target (command), fires a missile (launcher) at the target, and resupplies the system (logistics)."
A proximity fuse aboard the missile determines when it will detonate

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 12:46 PM

Oops ! Finish the last sentence-
"creating an expanding fragmentation pattern of missile components and warhead to intercept and destroy the target. ...."The more capable missile can hit targets as far as 30 miles (48 km), and more than 80,000 feet (24000 m) in altitude."

Good illustrations with the article.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 01:05 PM

Ukrainian "govt" forces are also supplied with Russian made BUK missiles and launchers, we still do not know who's finger pressed the button.
The video on youtube, of a launcher could have been anywhere with any timeframe and under any control.

Surely satellite recordings should show where the missile was fired from and where the launcher went after firing its weapon?

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 01:24 PM

Seemingly the U. S. and the UN have that data, according to their words and the sanctions that they are applying to the Russians. Moreover, the crash site has been picked over by the Separatists, who are still denying full access to the site. This is the action of a guilty party.

BP is worried about the sanctions, because an important part of their production comes from Russia (BBC news today).

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 03:53 PM

Here is the truth (if you can handle it).

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 06:41 PM

A conspiracy theory a day........

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 06:47 PM

Duke, Duke, Duke, Duke of Oil, Oil, Oil...

Same old song.......

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: GUEST,#
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 08:40 PM

"Seems to me that the CIA is having a field day with the internet."

The various letter agencies in the USA have been having a field day with the internet since the internet.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 09:09 PM

Under the "Rules of Engagement" in force at the time the USS Vincennes was justified in firing.

Then the "Rules of Engagement" in force at the time were wrong. When you kill almost 300 innocent people, it's high time you revised your rules. We'll be hearing next that the slaughter of children in Gaza is similarly justified. Western atrocity: shrug. Non-western atrocity: it's terrorism.

In any case, why should any "rules of engagement" have been in force?

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Jul 14 - 02:16 AM

"why should any "rules of engagement" have been in force?" - Steve Shaw

In 1988? In the Persian Gulf? Are you kidding?

Look up The Tanker War - 1984 to 1988 in which 546 commercial vessels were damaged and 430 civilian merchant sailors were killed.

The "Tanker War" began in the spring of 1984, started by the Iraqis in an attempt at provoking the Iranians into closing the Straits of Hormuz, which would have brought the USA directly into the conflict. The Iranians responded as follows:

"The Iranian Navy imposed a naval blockade of Iraq, using its British-built frigates to stop and inspect any ships thought to be trading with Iraq. They operated with virtual impunity, as Iraqi pilots had little training in hitting naval targets. Some Iranian warships attacked tankers with ship-to-ship missiles, while others used their radars to guide land-based anti-ship missiles to their targets. Iran began to rely on its new Revolutionary Guard's navy, which used Boghammar speedboats: fitted with rocket launchers, RPGs, and heavy machine guns, these speedboats would launch surprise attacks against tankers and cause substantial damage. Iran also used aircraft and helicopters to launch Maverick missiles and unguided rockets at tankers."

This ultimately resulted in the following:

"Iranian speedboat attacks on Kuwaiti shipping led Kuwait to formally petition foreign powers on 1 November 1986 to protect its shipping. The Soviet Union agreed to charter tankers starting in 1987, and the United States Navy offered to provide protection for foreign tankers reflagged and flying the U.S. flag starting 7 March 1987 in Operation Earnest Will."

In a live shooting environment where there are innocent third parties present "Rules of Engagement" are always required.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Jul 14 - 03:12 AM

Thanks Q interesting and informative link it shows that the full "System" as it should be deployed requires three specialist, dedicated vehicles:

1: Buk Missile System Complete

2: Command & Control Vehicle

This is the vehicle fitted with communications and medium range air defence radar. It is this radar that would find and identify any potential target and then pass it on to the:

3: Missile Launch Vehicle

The large smooth dome seen on the right of the vehicle's "turret" houses the missile's fire control radar (Initial "gathering beam" and target acquisition radar) and the "camera-like" piece of kit mounted above, and just behind it possibly provides early flight guidance until the missile's own sensors lock onto target. The fire control radar has no means of interrogating a target but in local control, i.e. in use without the Command & Control Vehicle, the fire control radar will lock onto a target if pointed in the direction of an aircraft. This capability is built into the system so that launchers can afford some degree of protection should Command vehicles get knocked out (Priorities in attacking any armoured formation from the air is to take out the air defence component first then take out the armour - In attacking the air defence component the priority is to identify and take out the command vehicles first then the launchers themselves)

As Akenaton says the video is inconclusive and could only show a Launcher Vehicle repositioning.

The most damning "evidence" to date is the recorded voice traffic between a "Separatist" Commander, Igor Bezler, and a Russian Intelligence Officer, Colonel Vasily Geranin of the GRU in which the former reports the shooting down of a Ukrainian aircraft at around the same time Flight MH17 was shot down.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 30 Jul 14 - 04:30 AM

The Russians received an upgraded Buk M-3 system, with six missile tubes, in 2009.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Jul 14 - 06:27 AM

That does not necessarily mean that they no longer have earlier marks of the system. It was policy in the Red Army to retain equipment, in the event of war as reserve groups were called up to replace losses in action the "reservists" were reunited with the equipment that they trained and used during the time of their conscription. This policy had certain advantages and certain drawbacks, the upper echelons of the Red Army obviously thought that the former outweighed the latter.

"Inside the Soviet Army (ISBN 0-241-10889-6; Hamish Hamilton, 1982; also published in the United States, Prentice Hall, ISBN 0-02-615500-1), by Viktor Suvorov, which describes the general organisation, doctrine, and strategy of the Soviet armed forces"

They haven't changed.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jul 14 - 10:43 AM

Q, it is apparent that critical thinking is not your strong suit.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 30 Jul 14 - 12:31 PM

Of course you are right, Terribus. I was pointing at the recent upgrade of this weapon system, whose first models were issued by the Russians in the 1970s.

According to ABC (Australian) news today, the black boxes show shrapnel damage from a rocket explosion. The recorders are being "decrypted" in Britain.

Investigators are being held back from examining the crash site by fighting. Foreign minister for Australia is hopeful that the Ukrainian government will permit AFP officers to carry weapons on site.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: mayomick
Date: 09 Aug 14 - 07:40 AM

Malaysian media have concluded that the Ukraine government shot down MH 17, according to this article on wsws today:
http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2014/08/09/mala-a09.html
"Given the tightly controlled character of the Malaysian media, it appears that the accusation that Kiev shot down MH17 has the imprimatur of the Malaysian state. ......These charges from Malaysia are all the more significant, in that Malaysia is not a strategic adversary of the United States ........Unlike Russia, which already presented evidence suggesting Ukrainian involvement in the crash, Malaysia has no political motive for trying to discredit the US, the European powers, or their puppet regime in Kiev."

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Aug 14 - 09:00 AM

Just the World Socialist Website quoting "an article" in a Malaysian newspaper!

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Aug 14 - 12:35 PM

I tried to trace down the "article" which is being circulated by something called the World Socialist Network.

In New Straits Times I found an article (08/07/2014) describing damage to aircraft parts from a missile. It is in Malaysian, but Google translation says "experts" suggest the plane was shot down by a Sukhoi Su-25 fighter, quoting Novosti RIA (Russian News Service).
The article goes on to describe and post a picture of a circular hole in addition to fragmentation explosion damage on a piece of debris and suggest the plane was shot down by warplanes.

I went to the The Straits Times which has an English edition and is the premier English source in the region and did not find any mention of this. ANe article says nothing about damage particulars, and is without any speculation, but is devoted to calls for an international investigation (AFP service, July 18.)to determine cause.

On August 6, The New Straits Times said that a Dutch contractor will take over the search for flight MH 370, lost in the Indian Ocean. The search will start in September, and will cost an estimated $48 million dollars.

The airline has been taken over by the Malaysian government and trading in shares has been suspended.
The airline, which had a 5-star rating, will be reorganized.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Acorn4
Date: 10 Aug 14 - 04:47 AM

We were promised the results of the study of the second black box but so far these have not been forthcoming.

Is there something that our governments don't want us to know?

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: mayomick
Date: 10 Aug 14 - 07:15 AM

Yes, Keith just an article pointing to the significance of the Malaysian media reaching the conclusion that the murders were committed by the people you support in Ukraine
 "Given the tightly controlled character of the Malaysian media, it appears that the accusation that Kiev shot down MH17 has the imprimatur of the Malaysian state. "

Q , there was no need for you to trace down the article - I provided a blue clicky to it . There was no need for you put the word "article" in quotation marks - unless you didn't agree that it was an article.

"An article is a written work published in a print or electronic medium. It may be for the purpose of propagating the news, research results, academic analysis or debate." ...........wiki

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Aug 14 - 07:57 AM

One "article" in one paper.
Q said it was not printed in the English language version.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: mayomick
Date: 10 Aug 14 - 09:41 AM

You don't want to find the New Straight Times article (sorry Q "article" ) - anymore than the Ukraine gvt wants to find the cockpit voice recording lol! Here it is anyway:

MH17: Pockmarks look like from very, very heavy machine gun fire, says first OSCE monitor on-scene



KUALA LUMPUR: INTELLIGENCE analysts in the United States had already concluded that Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 was shot down by an air-to-air missile, and that the Ukrainian government had had something to do with it.

This corroborates an emerging theory postulated by local investigators that the Boeing 777-200 was crippled by an air-to-air missile and finished off with cannon fire from a fighter that had been shadowing it as it plummeted to earth.

In a damning report dated Aug 3, headlined "Flight 17 Shoot-Down Scenario Shifts", Associated Press reporter Robert Parry said "some US intelligence sources had concluded that the rebels and Russia were likely not at fault and that it appears Ukrainian government forces were to blame".

This new revelation was posted on GlobalResearch, an independent research and media organisation.

In a statement released by the Ukrainian embassy on Tuesday, Kiev denied that its fighters were airborne during the time MH17 was shot down. This follows a statement released by the Russian Defence Ministry that its air traffic control had detected Ukrainian Air Force activity in the area on the same day.

They also denied all allegations made by the Russian government and said the country's core interest was in ensuring an immediate, comprehensive, transparent and unbiased international investigation into the tragedy by establishing a state commission comprising experts from the International Civil Aviation Organisation (ICAO) and Eurocontrol.

"We have evidence that the plane was downed by Russian-backed terrorist with a BUK-M1 SAM system (North Atlantic Treaty Organisation reporting name SA-11) which, together with the crew, had been supplied from Russia. This was all confirmed by our intelligence, intercepted telephone conversations of the terrorists and satellite pictures.

"At the same time, the Ukrainian Armed Forces have never used any anti-aircraft missiles since the anti-terrorist operations started in early April," the statement read.

Yesterday, the New Straits Times quoted experts who had said that photographs of the blast fragmentation patterns on the fuselage of the airliner showed two distinct shapes — the shredding pattern associated with a warhead packed with "flechettes", and the more uniform, round-type penetration holes consistent with that of cannon rounds.

Parry's conclusion also stemmed from the fact that despite assertions from the Obama administration, there has not been a shred of tangible evidence to support the conclusion that Russia supplied the rebels with the BUK-M1 anti-aircraft missile system that would be needed to hit a civilian jetliner flying at 33,000 feet.

Parry also cited a July 29 Canadian Broadcasting Corporation interview with Michael Bociurkiw, one of the first Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) investigators to arrive at the scene of the disaster, near Donetsk.

Bociurkiw is a Ukrainian-Canadian monitor with OSCE who, along with another colleague, were the first international monitors to reach the wreckage after flight MH17 was brought down over eastern Ukraine.

In the CBC interview, the reporter in the video preceded it with: "The wreckage was still smouldering when a small team from the OSCE got there. No other officials arrived for days".

"There have been two or three pieces of fuselage that have been really pockmarked with what almost looks like machinegun fire; very, very strong machinegun fire," Bociurkiw said in the interview.

Parry had said that Bociurkiw's testimony is "as close to virgin, untouched evidence and testimony as we'll ever get. Unlike a black-box interpretation-analysis long afterward by the Russian, British or Ukrainian governments, each of which has a horse in this race, this testimony from Bociurkiw is raw, independent and comes from one of the two earliest witnesses to the physical evidence.

"That's powerfully authoritative testimony. Bociurkiw arrived there fast because he negotiated with the locals for the rest of the OSCE team, who were organising to come later," Parry had said.

Retired Lufthansa pilot Peter Haisenko had also weighed in on the new shootdown theory with Parry and pointed to the entry and exit holes centred around the cockpit.

"You can see the entry and exit holes. The edge of a portion of the holes is bent inwards. These are the smaller holes, round and clean, showing the entry points most likely that of a 30mm caliber projectile.

"The edge of the other, the larger and slightly frayed exit holes, show shreds of metal pointing produced by the same caliber projectiles. Moreover, it is evident that these exit holes of the outer layer of the double aluminum reinforced structure are shredded or bent — outwardly."

He deduced that in order to have some of those holes fraying inwardly, and the others fraying outwardly, there had to have been a second fighter firing into the cockpit from the airliner's starboard side. This is critical, as no surface-fired missile (or shrapnel) hitting the airliner could possibly punch holes into the cockpit from both sides of the plane.

"It had to have been a hail of bullets from both sides that brought the plane down. This is Haisenko's main discovery. You can't have projectiles going in both directions — into the left-hand-side fuselage panel from both its left and right sides — unless they are coming at the panel from different directions.

"Nobody before Haisenko had noticed that the projectiles had ripped through that panel from both its left side and its right side. This is what rules out any ground-fired missile," Parry had said.


http://www.nst.com.my/node/20961

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 10 Aug 14 - 03:39 PM

Quote from New Straits Times Online, August 9, 2014:

"Flight Mh-17 Unlikely Shot Down By Fighter Jets: Hishammudden."

"Defence Minister ...Hishammudden Hussain today denied reports in the social media that Malaysia Airlines (MAS) Flight MH-17 was shot down by fighter jets.
He said intelligence and evidence gathered from the fragments of the ill-fated aircraft clearly showed it was shot down by missiles that were launched to the air from the ground. ....
"Whether these were owned by Ukraine or the Rebels who supplied by Russia, the bullets must have come from BUK System and this matter cannot be denied by Europe, NATO, or Russia, he told reporters ...."

He advised people not to be easily influenced by speculation and rumours being spread in the media social.
http://www.nst.com.my/node/21682

The report about the fighter jet did not come from the Malaysian government.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Aug 14 - 04:42 PM

It might be wise to wait until there's real evidence from the black boxes, however long it takes. The rest is spin and supposition: if they are bullet holes, there's no knowing when they got there, for sure. I judge by deeds, and the deeds incriminate those obstructing the investigation.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Aug 14 - 05:06 PM

If there are entry and exit bullet holes in the fuselage, they certainly did not come from the ground.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 10 Aug 14 - 07:50 PM

Two days after a reporter wrote toe bullet-hole story (mayonmick), the statement made by the Malayan Defense Minister said evidence was clear that a ground to air missile knocked out the plane. (Q, Aug 10)
I would tend to give more weight to his statement than to the reporter's summary of various opinions.

However, as Guest suggested, eventually a commission report will be issued. Disturbing are the reported comments by one of the commission monitors- they are not supposed to give opinions ahead of the report. He said (the interview on line) that pockmarked holes 'looked like" machinegun fire, but that there would be experts to analyze the data.
The writer of the news item seems to have embellished what was actually said.

Video Malaysia Airlines MH-17: Michael Bociurkiw talks about being first at the crash site.

It is unfortunate that the rebels disturbed the crash site. Evidence could have been removed or added.

The black boxes may or may not provide helpful evidence.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: mayomick
Date: 18 Aug 14 - 05:32 AM

Q, the Malaysian Defence Minister rebuttal of speculation "on social media" is disingenuous .The issue pointed to by wsws in the
"article" that I linked to was the intelligence agencies' views being carried by the Malaysian New Straight Times itself, which is widely seen as a propaganda mouthpiece for the ruling Barisan Nasional party.

Another wsws "article" today on the downing of Flight MH17 is titled


"Why have the media and Obama administration gone silent on MH17?

The same question could be asked of those who wrote here in the atrocity's immediate aftermath blaming pro-Russian separatists - Teribus, Keith, John on the Sunset Coast et al. The whole wsws "article" is worth reading , see link below .
"If pro-Russian separatists had fired a ground-to-air missile, as the US government claims, the Air Force would have imagery in their possession confirming it beyond a shadow of a doubt. The US Air Force's Defense Support Program utilizes satellites with infrared sensors to detect missile launches anywhere on the planet, and US radar posts in Europe would have tracked the missile as it shot through the sky. These satellite and radar data have not been released, because whatever they show does not fit the storyline concocted by the US government and media."
""What has emerged, instead, is a drumbeat of evidence pointing to the US-backed regime in Kiev's role in the MH17 shoot-down. The day after Kerry made his remarks, the Russian military presented radar and satellite data indicating that a Ukrainian SU-25 fighter jet was in the immediate vicinity and ascending towards MH17 as it was shot down. This claim has not been addressed, let alone refuted by the American government."

http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2014/08/18/ukmh-a18.html

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Aug 14 - 05:56 AM

Do we at least have all of our bodies back? It's really suspicious that the ones which were recovered have disappeared into the same black hole the black boxes are in, and nobody's had a chance to get the rest, which are going to be harder to find now the bodies have burst - sorry, but that's the truth, unvarnished by sensibility because their erstwhile owners deserved better than what the politicos have given them. Truth is yet again becoming the slave of political expediency, and perhaps it's time for our songwriters to start in on this.
Or is it being massaged to be released when it's politically most advantageous?
We're a month in and no data has been released, Worse, nobody's fussing for it, because the problems on the ground are worse yet. But as a historian, I find that more than curious, I find it reprehensible.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 18 Aug 14 - 06:45 AM

Do we at least have all of our bodies back? It's really suspicious that the ones which were recovered have disappeared into the same black hole the black boxes are in, and nobody's had a chance to get the rest,

The Dutch/Australian/Malaysian search team that was withdrawn when the area becane too dangerous for them to continue their search for belongings and body parts did not find any remains during the last part of their search, prompting them to issue a statement the 'locals' seemed to have done a more thorough search and retrieval than was initially believed.

The identification of the returned bodies continues, a total of 127 having been identified, according the last (weekly) press release last friday. No black hole there.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Aug 14 - 03:08 PM

That's not exactly what the OSCE team found after they left, I think you'll find. If I was next of kin to one of those, I'd be in training, as there's now bad blood involved.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 Aug 14 - 04:25 PM

There are still bodies to be recovered, but until fighting stops, those that ended up in 'bush' may not be recovered for some time to come. 228 coffins have arrived in the Netherlands. Wall Street Journal (their map of debris distribution covers some 10 miles).

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: mayomick
Date: 19 Aug 14 - 04:49 AM

I still wouldn't say for certain Q, but it's looking to me like it was your side that shot it down and not the dread Ruskies .

Meanwhile it's all quiet from Mudcat's resident Corporal Blimps .They are probably scouring the internet for some other excuse for launching World War Three at the moment. It's a wonder none of them latched onto the phantom Ruskie convoy incursion yet ! Come on now Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Aug 14 - 08:35 AM

OK Mick. Note that the Telegraph says its own people witnessed the incursion.
The Daily Telegraph Friday.
"There was growing concern over the Ukraine crisis on Friday night after Kiev claimed to have destroyed parts of a column of Russian military vehicles, with Nato accusing Moscow of launching an "incursion".

Petro Poroshenko, the Ukrainian president, told David Cameron, the Prime Minister, that government artillery had destroyed a "considerable part" of a small military convoy that entered the country. The Telegraph witnessed a convoy of Russian armoured vehicles and military trucks crossing the border on Thursday night, but it was not clear whether it was the same convoy Ukraine claimed to have attacked.

Russia's government denied its forces had crossed into Ukraine, calling the Ukrainian report "some kind of fantasy". "
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/11038156/Ukraine-destroys-parts-of-convoy-of-Russian-military-vehicles.html

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Aug 14 - 10:17 AM

One aspect of it is that in WWI, at least there were intermittent informal truces to recover the bodies. These swine don't rank as human.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 19 Aug 14 - 12:14 PM

Putin wants the Donbass region (centered on Donetsk) and the Ukraine doesn't seem to have the ability to fight the Russian-backed separatists. Eventually Putin will get his way.
About 40% of the residents claim Russian identity according an article in Wikipedia. That percentage is increasing as those who are Ukrainian identity move out as refugees.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: bobad
Date: 28 Aug 14 - 01:37 PM

The Russians have now invaded Ukraine. I can't wait for the thousands of posts of condemnation that are sure to be forthcoming. Maybe even a flotilla will be sent.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: mayomick
Date: 29 Aug 14 - 04:39 AM

did you ever work as a groundsman , Keith?

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: mayomick
Date: 29 Aug 14 - 07:01 AM

even Obama hasn't called it an invasion, Bobad .The evidence certainly points to a Russian incursion , but so long as Western media continues its silence about the downing of the Malaysian flight , its reporting and analysis on the Ukraine crisis lacks credibility - q.v. Keith's referencing of Russian media reports in his previous comment

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Leadbelly
Date: 29 Aug 14 - 07:11 AM

How long is the "sound of silence" concerning the downing of the Malaysian flight going on?

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 29 Aug 14 - 07:32 AM

The Russians completed its takeover of Ukraine in 1921 and has never really departed since - the idea of independence when it still had the Russian Black Sea Fleet on its territory is a nonsense.
That is half the problem: where should that fleet go if Ukraine is no longer an option. The first response in this was the Russian incursion into South Ossetia in Georgia in 2008, in response to the French placing Salome Zourabishvili (someone I've worked with in the past, I should declare - her former secretary is a faily friend) as Georgia Foreign Minister in 2005. Part of the rationale of that was to warn Georgia not to get too chummy with the West, as the land occupied is about 5k, from the Oligarchs favourite summer holiday beaches at Sochi, where the Winter Olympics happened. Part of my thinking there was to observe what happened to the Olympic Village, as retasking for the Fleet?
The second option for the Russians was Rostov, on the Don. It has the disadvantage of being on the wrong side of the Kursk Straight into the Sea of Kharkov, adding a third bottleneck to the exit for the Fleet (Istanbul/Dardanelles and Gibraltar being the others).
The third was to move the fleet out into the Med, operating from a port in Syria - whence their support for Assad.

Then, finally, the other concern. This is that Romania is now part of Europe, is protected by the Treaty of Lisbon self-defence commitment, and now has a major US base on its land. That is an even bigger threat to Russia than the outdated missiles in Turkey during the Cuban Missile Crisis in 1963, and possibly rules out the Syria option, as having both Turkey and Romania between them and their Fleet is not conducive to happy thoughts about stability of the supply line in the heads of its military High Command. That being said, it is also predicated in the concept of Russia as a quasi-Imperial hegemonic power, which is what this is really about.

So, to claim that this is an invasion of a fully autonomous nation is a bit much, on a pragmatic realpolitik basis. On the other hand, the iron grip on the balls of a Nation which has the theoretical right to self-determination is even more offensive. Perhaps Ukraine should ally itself with Georgia to ensure that if Russia attacks one, it has to deal with the other.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: mayomick
Date: 29 Aug 14 - 07:32 AM

I hope the anonymous guest who referred to the people of East Ukraine region being "swine" can access this facebook link:
https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=418015264938957

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: mayomick
Date: 29 Aug 14 - 08:02 AM

Yes Rahere it's getting complicated - history up for grabs again but this time as farce : Victoria Nuland stumbles into an Alan Furst novel I'm sure most pre-ww2 statesmen would have been able to find Roumania on the map

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: bobad
Date: 29 Aug 14 - 09:38 AM

"Russian troops are involved in "direct military operations" inside Ukraine, NATO Secretary-General Anders Fogh Rasmussen said Friday. "Despite Moscow's hollow denials, it is now clear that Russian troops and equipment have illegally crossed the border into eastern and south-eastern Ukraine," he said in a statement. "This is not an isolated action, but part of a dangerous pattern over many months to destabilize Ukraine as a sovereign nation."

NATO Chief Rasmussen: Russian Troops Are Fighting Inside Ukraine

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: GUEST,hw
Date: 29 Aug 14 - 11:11 AM

the sky is falling, the sky is falling, a big chunk just landed in the Gulf of Tonkin

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: bobad
Date: 30 Aug 14 - 10:00 AM

Re. "invasion"

"The more you hype it, the more you diagnose the severity of the illness, the more you're obligated, either morally, politically or practically, to find a cure," said Aaron David Miller, a foreign policy expert and scholar at the Woodrow Wilson International Centre for Scholars

"And there's a certain reality here. There's a tendency on the part of this administration to allow its rhetoric to exceed its capacity to deliver," Miller said "We're not going to be able blunt or stop Putin's objectives in eastern Ukraine any more than we could stop the aggrandizement of Crimea."

Elliott Abrams, a senior fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations, said officials avoid using the word for the same reason the U.S. wouldn't call Egypt's military ouster of former president Mohammed Morsi a coup or why some mass slaughters aren't referred to as genocide.

"Some words have both legal and emotional effects. And in the case of invasion, it's emotional and political," Abrams said.

"I think they don't want to use the word invasion because it makes harder the next question: And what are you going to do about it?"

source: CBC Canada

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 30 Aug 14 - 01:33 PM

And what can the U. S. or NATO do? Sanctions have a limited effect.

The next step is military threats and action, and the EU and U. S. aren't going to go that far. The people don't want war. The Ukraine itself can do little.

So Putin will eventually get his corridor to Crimea and perhaps a lot more.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Acorn4
Date: 30 Aug 14 - 02:10 PM

Apparently Putin has said that negotiating with Obama is like playing chess with a pigeon - it knocks all the pieces over then flaps about pretending it's won.

Whatever you make of him at least he'd got a sense of humour!

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: mayomick
Date: 31 Aug 14 - 04:44 AM

"The people don't want war"
Most people on the planet don't want war between nuclear-armed powers, but as can be seen on this thread, many people seem to be looking for any excuse - or "mistake" as one poster put it- to confront Russia.If you seriously wanted to avoid war you'd be questioning or challenging your own governments' version of what took place on July 17 instead of instantly believing whatever the media instantly tells you was "beyond doubt". World leaders are said to have sleepwalked into war in 1914, nowadays they're wide awake avidly watching Fox News .

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Aug 14 - 05:32 AM

The whole "crisis", has its roots in EU and NATO expansion into the Russian sphere of influence.
On TV today, I heard President Putin, say, "We don't want war, war would be unthinkable, but we must show the Western powers that we will not be pushed around"

Seems to me that there are parallels with the Cuban missile crisis here......lessons should have been learned.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Leadbelly
Date: 31 Aug 14 - 03:39 PM

akenaton,

thanks for your comment!

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Sep 14 - 08:03 AM

Mayomick perhaps you can tell me exactly how long the Russians and their "Russian Separatists" had sole access to bits of wreckage to put whatever holes they liked into it?

Care to explain how a Ukrainian aircraft shot the civilian airliner down without anyone except the Russians noticing it? Ukrainian Air Force bases and sorties from those bases would have been noted - the launch of the SAM that shot the plane down certainly was, as was the recorded conversation between a Separatist Commander and a Russian Military Intelligence Officer - Now why no similar recording of a fighter pilot talking to his director? I mean none at all - take-off; climb out; vector to target - absolutely nothing.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Sep 14 - 08:57 AM

Why dobn't YOU explain it for us, T-Bird?

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: robomatic
Date: 01 Sep 14 - 11:28 AM

I heard President Putin, say, "We don't want war, war would be unthinkable, but we must show the Western powers that we will not be pushed around"
I'm not surprised Putin said that, but Putin's idea of "not be pushed around" is the ability to push around, 'bully', his weaker neighbors, such as Georgia, Ukraine, and if he continues to get away with fomenting war in lands that share his boundries, the Baltic States.
I agree that war is unthinkable, but Russia is endangering European, thus world stability by playing master of the flea circus.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: mayomick
Date: 01 Sep 14 - 12:52 PM

Yes , and Teribus , perhaps you would care to explain exactly how long ago it was you stopped beating your wife !I can't explain how the atrocity happened and I'm not going to make it all up on the basis of anti-American prejudice . Really if you have any evidence to show that the rebels shot down the plane ,produce it.


Any recorded conversation between a bragging separatist Commander and a Russian Military Intelligence Officer ,which is said to have taken place within twenty minutes of the plane hitting the ground ,of course need to be investigated.The Western media reported a Ukraine intelligence source at the time saying the jet had been brought down not by rebels but by Russian forces on the border. That needs to be thoroughly examined as - as do all claims made by Ukraine's intelligence services.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: mayomick
Date: 01 Sep 14 - 01:32 PM

the Russians haven't claimed that the plane was shot down by the Ukrainian jets , btw Teribus. They have produced evidence to show that military jets were in close proximity at the time and asked for an explanation . None has been forthcoming.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: mayomick
Date: 01 Sep 14 - 01:33 PM

The Russians haven't claimed that the plane was shot down by the Ukrainian jets , btw Teribus. They have produced evidence to show that military jets were in close proximity at the time and asked for an explanation . None has been forthcoming.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: mayomick
Date: 01 Sep 14 - 02:54 PM

Robomatic agrees with the one clearly illogical point that the Russian president made. i.e that war is "unntinkable". Putin is thinking about war,otherwise he wouldn't have mentioned war.So are Western politicians and military planners..

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Sep 14 - 03:34 PM

Well, Newport is already in nigh-on lockdown: Putin was careless in bringing this to a head so shortly before a NATO Ministerial, as his policy has now moved from head item on the agenda, to become objective no 1 of the construction of an emergency intervention force. The game of weasel words has ended: he pulled the tail of the tiger once to often and the claws are coming out. The debate as to whether this is a good thing or a bad thing is not my concern, I simply describe the facts: Putin's bluster about not messing with a nuclear power worked both ways, and it took us straight back to 1974, with the exception that Russia no longer has the buffer states to drain financially.
Of course, Putin's not the man who's paying the bill, but his oligarchs, which may have consequences for him.
There may be no end of bluster from all sides, but unless you are at the table it's just so much hot air. I at least have worked with those doing the planning and they are not warmongers: but sometimes nipping a small problem in the bud preemptss a larger one, the least worst option.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Sep 14 - 09:04 PM

the ability to push around, 'bully', his weaker neighbors,

You mean like the U S of A has consistently done since the late 19th Century?

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Sep 14 - 02:08 AM

"Any recorded conversation between a bragging separatist Commander and a Russian Military Intelligence Officer ,which is said to have taken place within twenty minutes of the plane hitting the ground ,of course need to be investigated." - mayomick

Oh mayomick don't be so coy, both the "separatist" commander and the Russian Miltary Intelligence Officer have been identified, they have names, there have been no denials that the conversation took place, no claims that it was "constructed" by some other party, so there is no "said to have taken place" about it. By the way mayomick as the conversation did take place can you offer any reason why a "Separatist" Commander in Eastern Ukraine should be reporting back to a serving Russian Military Intelligence Officer? Anything possibly to do with "borrowed" Russian military hardware being used? After all that is most certainly how they managed to take over the Crimea.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: mayomick
Date: 02 Sep 14 - 06:05 AM

Teribus Would you agree with the point I made here the day after the crash?


"They say that the Buk weapons system is very difficult to work . If the rebels did have them they would have needed expert support - the missiles are guided by a radar station . The rebels couldn't have used BUKs without Russian back-up . If the Russians were involved they would have known that it wasn't a military aircraaft."

There have been several denials of the claim about the "separatist" commander and the Russian Miltary Intelligence Officer . But if you accept that the bragging conversation did take place,
what of the mistakenly-shot-down-by-rebels explanation offered by Keith and others?

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Sep 14 - 05:13 AM

Would you agree with the point I made here the day after the crash?


"They say that the Buk weapons system is very difficult to work . If the rebels did have them they would have needed expert support - the missiles are guided by a radar station . The rebels couldn't have used BUKs without Russian back-up . If the Russians were involved they would have known that it wasn't a military aircraft."

In short no I would not. But dealing with what you say point by point:

1: "the Buk weapons system is very difficult to work"

Not if you have been previously trained on Russian/Soviet weapons systems as all conscripts attached to Air Defence Regiments kitted out with the BUK weapons system would have been.{Remember this piece of kit has been in service with Warsaw Pact/Soviet/Russian Forces since 1979}

2: "If the rebels did have them they would have needed expert support"

Not without the bounds of possibility that the Russians sent "specialists" across the border to operate those systems under "local" control.

3: "the missiles are guided by a radar station"

As normally deployed yes, but all tactical missile weapons systems are fully capable of being operated under "local" control in the event that if anything happens to their main command and control systems the weapons system can provide a reduced operating capability. Had the Russians provided a full system then that would have been easily detected by third parties.

"what of the mistakenly-shot-down-by-rebels explanation offered by Keith and others?"

Oh I am convinced entirely that the airliner WAS shot down by mistake, the Rebels thought that the aircraft they heard but could not see was a Ukrainian military transport aircraft similar to the one they had shot down previously.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Sep 14 - 06:39 AM

If this is the case Teribus, why the news blackout?

The Kiev "govt", Cameron, Holland, Obama, uncle Tom Cobbley and all, were lightning fast in pinning blame on the Russians, before the plane had stopped burning.

Stop pressurising the "bear" or he will bite......I doubt if Mr Putin can be bought.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Sep 14 - 08:57 AM

The investigation will take time.

The crash site, the wreckage and the remains were heavily compromised as "rebels" dashed in and poured and trampled over it for days before anyone else was allowed near it.

Wait and see.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 03 Sep 14 - 01:41 PM

What news blackout?
The press has nothing to chew at this time; pieces and victims are still being sought, and the investigation report always is slow in coming out, sometimes after several months. Reports at this time would only be repetition.

Hundreds of specialists would be able to operate the three-part Buk system; it has been in use for over 30 years.

The system was purchased by Syria ($1 billion contract), Venezuela and Ajerbaijan among others, and was demonstrated in shows in Indonesia, Malaysia and Chile as well as Russia. The Buk M2E series can engage 24 targets at one time.

See www.army-technology for a good article on its capabilities;" Buk-M2E air defense missile system, Russia."

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: mayomick
Date: 03 Sep 14 - 03:09 PM

I've been re-reading the Daily Mail article of 18 July, Teribus. It really couldn't have been a mistake if the Mail and other Western media reports at the time were accurate . Pentagon experts said that "it was impossible to imagine that the missile could not have been fired without Russian support ". Rear Adm. John Kirby said: 'It strains credulity to think that it could be used by separatists without at least some measure of Russian support and technical assistance.'A former commander of Russian Air Force Special Operations Command, a Colonel-General, went further stated in an interview that "the separatists did not have the expertise to operate the BUK launchers, that only Russian personnel could do so."



After shooting the civilian aircraft down with a BUK missile , the terrorist commander , Igor Bezler, who is also a Russian military intelligence officer and commander of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People's Republic " reported back" to a Russian military intelligence officer gleefully bragging about his success . A Ukrainian intelligence officer said it was likely that " the 'direct performers of the terrorist attack' would also have been killed to avoid any witnesses.". And the stupid Russian news agency RIA Novosti reported the crash at 16.13 Moscow time, several minutes before the crash actually happened - at 16.20.I bet the head of RIA Novosti and the production crew got quickly dispatched after their blunder was exposed by the Daily Mail.Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2696847/They-shouldnt-f-g-flying-There-war-going-Ukraine-intelligence-officials-release-

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: mayomick
Date: 03 Sep 14 - 04:45 PM

'We warned you – do not fly in 'our sky'........ The after-crash "triumphant war cry " of Strelkov  – dubbed 'Igor the Terrible' – on Twitter , as reported in the Mail
"The Iranians were advised not to let the aircraft take off on it's flight from Bandar Abbas to Dubai - They ignored that advice". .........Teribus the Terrible , 28 July

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Sep 14 - 02:50 AM

Now then mayomick care to take a look at the differences in both instances?

Over Eastern Ukraine:
1: No IATA restrictions in force
2: Not suspected that a civilian airliner flying as high as they do would be under threat of attack
3: Not suspected that the "separatists" had the capability to shoot down aircraft at the high flown by civilian airliners {Civilian air traffic routinely flies over Syria, Libya, Iraq and Afghanistan - and they have done for decades}
4: The warning mentioned was not made to the world at large but to the Ukrainian Government after the rebels shot down the first Ukrainian military transport aircraft.

Over the Persian Gulf:
1: The warning not to take off was issued by the US whose forces were already involved in action in the area over which the airliner was about to fly
2: The warning was given as weapons systems fully capable of shooting down an aircraft flying an extensive envelope in terms of altitude and speed were engaged and likely to be used {A fully automatic and autonomous USN AEGIS system}
3: The Iranians deliberately ignored a specific warning before the event.

Do you always compare apples to oranges, or do you only do this this when it suits your purposes in order to deflect mayomick?

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: bobad
Date: 04 Sep 14 - 01:22 PM

To understand Putin read Orwell: Ukraine, Russia and the Big Lie

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Sep 14 - 02:24 PM

More to the point: To understand BooBad, read Orwell.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Sep 14 - 05:31 PM

As things stand, there is no news blackout, just careful work being done - the preliminary Dutch findings are due in a couple of weeks. Of course, that doesn't suit Russia, they were peeing on the results by saying a decent read could have produced a resulty in under three days. That presumes two things: firstly, that there's no need to interpret the results, that raw data is all that's needed, and secondly, that the data was trustworthy in the first place. Given that it had been in the hands of the people suspected of causing the problem in the first place, they almost certainly had to read not just the top write, but the layers under that, to prove the data was contiguous. If it wasn't, then the layers below had to be read, and that takes time.
When you write data to any magnetic record, you leave a field which the next reader can follow. But when you write over it, even erasing it, you don't get rid of it perfectly, you leave sidebands which the data can be reread from. Remove the top signal, you get a weak layer on top - the previous write is still readable, if done slowly and carefully. The third, even harder - but doable. That, I think, is what took the time, the careful check and recheck, and then the interpretation. The full report won't be there until 2017, and that's scientists for you, dotting the "i"s long after the boat has sailed.
What that report says, I have absolutely no idea of. But don't jump the gun just because you have an agenda.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: mayomick
Date: 04 Sep 14 - 05:44 PM

Ok thanks for that guest. We all knew who did it from the word go, but let's not jump to conclusions nods as good as a wink
Bobad : 1984 wasn't set in Russia , you know?
Teribus
In April, the International Civil Aviation Organization warned governments that there was a risk to commercial passenger flights over Ukraine
On 14 June, an Air Force Ilyushin Il-76 aircraft was shot down on approach to Luhansk International Airport; all 49 people on board died.[48] After that incident, on 29 June, Russian news agencies reported that insurgents had gained access to a Buk missile systemafter having taken control of a Ukrainian air defence base (possibly the former location of the 156th Anti-Aircraft Rocket Regiment [156 zrp] of the Ukrainian Air Force).[49][50][51] On the same day, the Donetsk People's Republic claimed possession of such a system in a since-deleted tweet. .........wiki

According to NBC News: "Pro-Moscow rebels were said to have used a similar system to shoot down a Ukrainian Antonov AN-26 aircraft on Monday." The crash occured four days later, on Thursday .

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Sep 14 - 06:26 PM

"But don't jump the gun just because you have an agenda."

:0)....That's funny,    Who were the first to "jump the gun", yes that's right, the Ukranian puppet government and its string pullers in the US,UK, and most other NATO countries.

I remember MR Kerry, Hillary the Hawk, Mr Hague and latterly Mr Obama, "jumping the gun" quite spectacularly!

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Sep 14 - 06:49 PM

Ah, so you ARE Mr Spook - I claim my £5.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Sep 14 - 02:51 AM

"In April, the International Civil Aviation Organization warned governments that there was a risk to commercial passenger flights over Ukraine"

Care to name the other parts of the world such warnings are posted for? These tend to be "Cover-your-ass" announcements.

"On 14 June, an Air Force Ilyushin Il-76 aircraft was shot down on approach to Luhansk International Airport; all 49 people on board died.[48] After that incident, on 29 June, Russian news agencies reported that insurgents had gained access to a Buk missile system after having taken control of a Ukrainian air defence base (possibly the former location of the 156th Anti-Aircraft Rocket Regiment [156 zrp] of the Ukrainian Air Force).[49][50][51] On the same day, the Donetsk People's Republic claimed possession of such a system in a since-deleted tweet. .........wiki"

"On approach to" indicates low altitude so MANPADS system probably used

"Russian news agencies reported" - and we all know these to be totally reliable, free from any government influence and totally unbiased - and the band played believe it if you can.

Immediately the "Separatist" claim came in relating to the capture of such systems from the the Ukrainian armed forces the Ministry of Defence in Kiev issued a statement that all their systems were accounted for. A date for when the Tweet about the "captured" BUK systems was deleted would indicate that it was deleted so that the Russians and the "Separatists" could claim that they did not have any system capable of shooting down the airliner. Bit pointless really as the BUK Launcher was spotted on no less than three occasions in the vicinity of where the missile was launched, the launch plume that brought down the airliner was spotted and the jubilant reports of the "confirmed kill" were recorded and those speaking were identified as being a rebel separatist commander located in the area from which the missile had been fired and a serving Military Intelligence Officer in the Russian Army.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: mayomick
Date: 05 Sep 14 - 05:40 AM

Teribus , the Ukrainian government says the missile was launched by "Russian professionals and coordinated from Russia" .Would it in your opinion be reasonable to assume that whoever shot MH17 down would have known by the plane's close proximity to the Russian border and by its height and trajectory , that it would be flying over Russian airspace within a minute or so?

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: mayomick
Date: 05 Sep 14 - 05:47 AM

Yes, I have acknowledged that , Keith . Where have you been for the last week btw ? I thought I'd put you on jankers

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: mayomick
Date: 05 Sep 14 - 06:45 AM

sorry re my last comment. I must have seen an old comment from Keith about my gullibility and got my drawers cellular in a twist. Keith must still think he's in jankers. Teribus,ffs tell him it's ok .

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Sep 14 - 05:59 AM

Drawers cellular!
Not many of us would remember those Mick.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: bobad
Date: 08 Sep 14 - 01:31 PM

"New evidence has been found that shows the Buk missile system that was used to shoot down MH17 on the 17th of July came from Russia, and was most likely operated by Russian soldiers. Using videos posted by locals in Russia's Belgorod region back in June it has been possible to identify the Buk missile launcher seen in Ukraine on July 17th as part of a convoy of Buk missile launchers. It has also been possible to identify the Russian brigade the Buk is likely to have belonged to, and who may have operated the Buk missile launcher when it was in Ukraine."

Bellingcat

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 08 Sep 14 - 02:43 PM

A news story today on the BBC, CTV, etc. But really just more verification of the use of the Buk missile system.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Sep 14 - 04:09 AM

Preliminary Interim Report due to be issued to day with Full Report due sometime next year.

This will state what caused the crash.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Sep 14 - 04:56 AM

Blame will not be attributed.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 09 Sep 14 - 05:11 AM

Interim report now out: it was hit by shrapnel from outside. It was not hit by machine-gun fire, which some of the Russian apologists here have claimed. There is no explanation for the origin of the shrapnel, but there is little doubt but that it was from the explosion of a surface-to-air missile, as already concluded.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Sep 14 - 07:54 AM

"Interim report now out: it was hit by shrapnel from outside. It was not hit by machine-gun fire, which some of the Russian apologists here have claimed. There is no explanation for the origin of the shrapnel, but there is little doubt but that it was from the explosion of a surface-to-air missile, as already concluded."

Perhaps now mayomick will re-enter the discussion with some sort of credible explanation for these heavy machine gun bullet holes found by the Russians?

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Sep 14 - 12:25 PM

The report uses the phrase "high energy objects" which struck the plane and caused it to "break apart in mid-air."
As noted by Teribus and others, this is consistent with the explosion of a surface-to-air missile; there are no machine gun bullet penetrations.

Dutch officials have launched a "criminal investigation" and hope to file charges in a Dutch court.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 09 Sep 14 - 04:05 PM

Well, if high energy objects are not shrapnel, then they must be unidentified flying objects. Occam's Razor rules.