BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 05:01 PM

Robert Parry is a highly respected journalist. Btw, the only proof the US has presented so far has been provided by the Ukraine government and consists of social media which is highly malleable and very easily manipulated. Read the transcript of this briefing: Zero Evidence from a highly based source.
Is this your "verified source"?

This is a false flag operation to vilify Russia and the separatists. It has an underlying agenda that has nothing to do with democracy in Ukraine. Recall the intelligence on Iraq weapons of mass destruction? It was false in tell used to get us into an ill advised war. Obviously the government can't be trusted when they say they have intelligence unless they present it.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Jul 14 - 12:12 PM

Mr. Parry now seems to be an apologist for the Russians.

The objective of Putin is obvious; having taken Crimea, he wants to add the Donbass region to Russia. The Separatists are well-armed with Russian equipment, and are the advance element of the move by Putin.
Russian aid has been well-documented by reporters from most media.

The Ukrainian government seems hopeless in attempting to deal with the pro-Russians and the Donetsk and Lugansk regions seem firmly under Separatist control.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: GUEST,iain
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 05:09 AM

In most parts of the world an airline passenger is subjected to all sorts of humiliating ordeals before being allowed to board a plane, in case they are potential shoebombers ot underpants bombers or terrorists of a similar ilk. Having carefully vetted all the passengers to ensure the aircfraft cannot be destroyed by any of the passengers, the governments responsible totally abrogate their responsibilities and allow the plane to fly through contested airspace where there is a war occurring 24/7.
This would seem a total disconnect to me.
What is the true function of all the security for boarding if the powers that be could not give a s***t once the plane is airbourne?

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 11:41 AM

The US reaps what it sows.

It set the standard for blowing civilian airliners out of the sky way back in 1988. And it set a precedent for Crimea's secession when it agitated for Kosovo's secession from Serbia.

It is interesting to recall what George Bush Snr said after Iranian Air Flight 655 was shot down with the loss of 290 lives, mainly women and including 60 children: ""I will never apologize for the United States—I don't care what the facts are." Whether he was speaking for all the American People I don't know, but it didn't do his presidential election campaign any harm.

There are times when the US would be well advised to keep quiet.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 01:22 PM

George H.W. Bush was and is a jackass & his son was and is an asshole. Sounds like the old "My country right or wrong" bullshit.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 01:35 PM

Iranian Flight 655 is still generating controversy. According to the commander of the Vincennes, they confused it with a Tomcat F-14A fighter (supplied to Iran by Grumann in the 1970s). They shot it down when they received no response to radio messages. The plane was emitting the typical signal, Mode III Civilian Code, but not Military Code II.

Although the U. S. did not apologize or admit legal responsibility for the blunder, it paid $61.8 million in compensation to relatives of passengers and crew.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 04:23 PM

The commanding officer of another IS warship in the vicinity of the Vincennes said the atrocity "marked the horrifying climax to Captain Rogers's aggressiveness, first seen four weeks ago."

The way the US has behaved - the Pentagon's initial tissue of lies; VP Bush's crass response; honouring Captain Rogers; the refusal to apologise for a catastrophe entirely and unequivocally of its own making - is shameful. That the US now presumes to lecture Putin just beggars belief.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: robomatic
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 04:28 PM

The shooting down of the Iranian jet by the Vincennes was uniquely horrible because it was due to poor or misidentification. The shooting down of KAL007 was uniquely horrible because it was properly identified as civilian and yet the Russian interceptor obeyed orders to shoot it down anyway. The shooting down of Malaysian MH17 was uniquely horrible because it was shot down almost casually with barely an attempt at identification.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 04:56 PM

So was it "poor" identification or "misidentification" robomatic? The Iranian plane was signalling on a civilian channel (contrary to one of the Pentagon's lies), and contrary to the Vincennes crew's claims it was climbing towards 12000ft not diving towards the Vincennes from lower altitude. Big difference. Sounds like the US Navy was too confused to attempt much in the way of identification.

KAL007 was shot down by a Soviet interceptor. And yes, I suppose the US is not as bad as the USSR. You must be proud.

What does "barely an attempt at identification" mean, and on what is that claim based? Maybe it would be wiser to wait till we know a bit more/ The Pentagon's behaviour re IAF655 should have taught us to be wary of early claims by one vested interest or another.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: bobad
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 05:14 PM

There is overwhelming, but largely circumstantial evidence that Russian-backed rebels mistakenly brought down the Boeing 777, killing all 298 people on board, having mistaken it for a Ukrainian military aircraft.

It is almost certain the aircraft was brought down by a Russian-made SA-11 missile fired from a Buk mobile launcher that had crossed into Ukraine from Russia.

A spokesman for McCue & Partners said in a statement: "There has been talk of civil suits against Malaysia Airlines, but those immediately responsible are not only the separatists who are alleged to have fired the rocket at Flight MH17, causing the death of hundreds of innocent victims, but those, be they states, individuals or other entities, who provided them with financial and material support and the means to do so.

Vladimir Putin facing multi-million dollar lawsuit for aiding separatists who shot down MH17, lawyers say

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 07:10 PM

argely circumstantial evidence

Circumstantial evidence at least 50% of the time isn't, Boo.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 27 Jul 14 - 09:30 PM

"Circumstantial evidence at least 50% of the time isn't, Boo."

Greg F., where did you get that statistic? Please provide the source for your statement, or did you just pull it out of thin air?
Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 03:41 AM

The Iranians were advised not to let the aircraft take off on it's flight from Bandar Abbas to Dubai - They ignored that advice.

There was Iranian Air Force activity in the area as well as an ongoing maritime incident that involved the USS Vincennes, a USN Aegis Missile Cruiser.

The Aegis System on the USS Vincennes automatically "identifies" and prioritises threats that it "sees" then fires automatically and that is what happened to the Iranian Airbus in 1988. Under the "Rules of Engagement" in force at the time the USS Vincennes was justified in firing.

In the 1960s during the Indonesian confrontation with Malaya, the Guided Missile Destroyer HMS Devonshire was advised enroute to Singapore that attack by Indonesian "Badger" Tu-16 bombers was likely and that it was not known whether or not these aircraft were armed with "stand-off" Kelt Missiles. Devonshire's missile systems relied on manual firing and only the Commanding Officer could give that command. An airborne radar was detected operating in "Search" Mode and the ship went to action stations with both Director and Launcher tracking the target, at this point the General Operations Plot was started. As the target closed to a point where a "stand-off" weapon could be fired the characteristics of the airborne radar went from "Search" to "Acquired" Mode. The Gunnery Officer asked for permission to fire, the Captain refused and stated that he wanted visual confirmation as to the identification of the target aircraft. By this stage the 4.5" Guns on the Devonshire were also tracking the target. After a few minutes the Director Operator for the 4.5" Guns reported - "Aircraft, Aircraft, Aircraft, bearing whatever it was - aircraft identified as Boeing 707 - Civilian aircraft, repeat civilian aircraft". The Captain ordered all weapons systems to train on safe bearings. When the General Operations Plot was examined, the juncture at which the airborne radar went from Search to Acquired the aircraft, the ship and the radar beacon for Kuala Lumpur Airport were in line, the Captain of HMS Devonshire would have been perfectly justified in firing at that point, he chose not to.

Time had moved on a great deal from 1964 to 1988 the Captain of the USS Vincennes potentially faced a far higher threat level and did not have the luxury of choice open to the Captain of HMS Devonshire - It was why the Aegis Defence System was invented.

The Missile system that brought down the Malaysian Airliner is supposed to be used as part of an integrated air defence system designed to protect mobile armoured formations, used as it is supposed to be used and operated the target aircraft would have been identified, but if that mobile missile launcher was operated as I believe it was in this case "In Local" control then no such target identification would have been possible all the operator would have seen would have been a blip on his radar with no further information. He fired thinking that this was a Ukrainian Military Transport.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: mayomick
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 06:07 AM

John from Sunset Coast . I don't know how accurate the 50% figure is but this from the wiki entry on circumstantial evidence deals with the perception of such evidence being of less value than direct evidence :

"Indeed, the common metaphor for the strongest possible evidence in any case—the "smoking gun"—is an example of proof based on circumstantial evidence. Similarly, fingerprint evidence, videotapes, sound recordings, photographs, and many other examples of physical evidence that support the drawing of an inference, i.e., circumstantial evidence, are considered very strong possible evidence."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumstantial_evidence

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 09:58 AM

Oh, Greg F., while you're compiling your references to circumstantial evidence, you also might tell us what you mean by "50% of the time isn't."

Are you saying that 50% of the time circumstantial evidence isn't circumstantial evidence? Are you saying that 50% of the time circumstantial evidence is actually direct evidence? Are you saying that 50% of the time circumstantial evidence is actually no evidence at all? Is it possible that circumstantial evidence can be so overwhelming, as to overcome substantial and convincing doubt as to guilt?

You might want to start, if you haven't already, with mayomick's post of earlier this morning. However, I do recall from many of your posts over the years that you are not a fan of wikipedia. Well, ya gotta start somewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 11:12 AM

It troubles me that all the "evidence" the US has for the claims they are making are coming through social media. Do you know how easy it is to manipulate public opinion through social media?- With no real accountability I might add. With all the info that the NSA has at its disposal, it could hack to its heart's content. Does anyone recall Operation Mockingbird? Seems to me that the CIA is having a field day with the internet.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 11:31 AM

Are you saying that 50% of the time circumstantial evidence isn't circumstantial evidence? Are you saying that 50% of the time circumstantial evidence is actually direct evidence? Are you saying that 50% of the time circumstantial evidence is actually no evidence at all? Is it possible that circumstantial evidence can be so overwhelming, as to overcome substantial and convincing doubt as to guilt?

All of those possibilities are worth thinking, about, John - all worth thinking about. Let us know if you come to any conclusions.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 12:30 PM

I'm guessing by your not posting a source, you have none. I'm also guessing that you don't really understand what you wrote the other day...it really made no sense. You couldn't even give an opinion as to what you meant, except to say its (they're) possibility worth thinking about. It's not for me to tell you what you mean...its your job to be clear.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 01:00 PM

Terribus, a good summary.
In the Vincennes incident, there also seems to have been confusion on the part of the Iranian crew, who may have thought that the messages were aimed at another aircraft. In a war zone, there is little time for procrastination.

The missile launch system for the Buk missiles has been described as too complicated for a force such as the Separatists. The system was invented by the Russians in the 1970s, and would be familiar to many soldiers trained for it in the last 30 years.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 01:21 PM

Latest news suggests - from the flight recorder on MH17 - that the plane was hit by shrapnel from an exploding rocket rather than a direct hit by rocket, causing massive "explosive decompression" of the plane.
So no doubt "they" will now say "of course we weren't aiming at the plane"...............

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 01:22 PM

Yes, John, you are most certainly guessing. Nothing new there.

But your guiesses are not correct. Nothing new there, either.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 02:30 PM

"But your guiesses[sic]are not correct."

Oh, then you have post a source. I must have missed it. Sure I did.
You can bob and weave and duck, but you can't run and hide. Either provide us with back up, or reasoned answers as to what YOU mean, or we'll know you got nothin'.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 03:08 PM

Either provide us with back up, or reasoned answers as to what YOU mean

Like you do? Yeah, right.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 03:28 PM

A s noted before, the Buk missiles explode in proximity, showering the target with shrapnel-type fragments.
They do not make a "direct hit."

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 03:29 PM

I just want to know what you meant when you wrote, "Circumstantial evidence at least 50% of the time isn't, Boo." You just float around it providing no explanation, because you don't even understand what you yourself type. Oh, I really didn't and don't expect a source for that statement, which, of course, you now ignore.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: bobad
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 04:09 PM

Greg coherent at least 50% of the time isn't.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 02:14 AM

"from the flight recorder on MH17 - that the plane was hit by shrapnel from an exploding rocket rather than a direct hit by rocket, causing massive "explosive decompression" of the plane.
So no doubt "they" will now say "of course we weren't aiming at the plane" - Tattie Bogle

"As noted before, the Buk missiles explode in proximity, showering the target with shrapnel-type fragments." - Q

It is called a TTB (Target Triggered Burst) missiles can either make a direct hit or be triggered by a proximity fuse. This feature allows the missiles to be test fired against extremely expensive "Pilot-less Target Aircraft" without blowing them out off the sky.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 10:52 AM

Thanks for the explanation, Teribus. - you obviously know a lot more about these things! (not being sarcastic, in case you might think that!)

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 12:37 PM

The Buk missile and its launcher, the M1-2 system, is clearly described in Wikipedia, "Buk Missile System."
It is a mobile system, with both aquisition and targeting radar, a command unit, missile launchers and logistics element, mounted on a tracked vehicle.
"In general, the system identifies potential targets (radar), selects a particular target (command), fires a missile (launcher) at the target, and resupplies the system (logistics)."
A proximity fuse aboard the missile determines when it will detonate

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 12:46 PM

Oops ! Finish the last sentence-
"creating an expanding fragmentation pattern of missile components and warhead to intercept and destroy the target. ...."The more capable missile can hit targets as far as 30 miles (48 km), and more than 80,000 feet (24000 m) in altitude."

Good illustrations with the article.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 01:05 PM

Ukrainian "govt" forces are also supplied with Russian made BUK missiles and launchers, we still do not know who's finger pressed the button.
The video on youtube, of a launcher could have been anywhere with any timeframe and under any control.

Surely satellite recordings should show where the missile was fired from and where the launcher went after firing its weapon?

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 01:24 PM

Seemingly the U. S. and the UN have that data, according to their words and the sanctions that they are applying to the Russians. Moreover, the crash site has been picked over by the Separatists, who are still denying full access to the site. This is the action of a guilty party.

BP is worried about the sanctions, because an important part of their production comes from Russia (BBC news today).

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 03:53 PM

Here is the truth (if you can handle it).

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 06:41 PM

A conspiracy theory a day........

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 06:47 PM

Duke, Duke, Duke, Duke of Oil, Oil, Oil...

Same old song.......

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: GUEST,#
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 08:40 PM

"Seems to me that the CIA is having a field day with the internet."

The various letter agencies in the USA have been having a field day with the internet since the internet.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 09:09 PM

Under the "Rules of Engagement" in force at the time the USS Vincennes was justified in firing.

Then the "Rules of Engagement" in force at the time were wrong. When you kill almost 300 innocent people, it's high time you revised your rules. We'll be hearing next that the slaughter of children in Gaza is similarly justified. Western atrocity: shrug. Non-western atrocity: it's terrorism.

In any case, why should any "rules of engagement" have been in force?

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Jul 14 - 02:16 AM

"why should any "rules of engagement" have been in force?" - Steve Shaw

In 1988? In the Persian Gulf? Are you kidding?

Look up The Tanker War - 1984 to 1988 in which 546 commercial vessels were damaged and 430 civilian merchant sailors were killed.

The "Tanker War" began in the spring of 1984, started by the Iraqis in an attempt at provoking the Iranians into closing the Straits of Hormuz, which would have brought the USA directly into the conflict. The Iranians responded as follows:

"The Iranian Navy imposed a naval blockade of Iraq, using its British-built frigates to stop and inspect any ships thought to be trading with Iraq. They operated with virtual impunity, as Iraqi pilots had little training in hitting naval targets. Some Iranian warships attacked tankers with ship-to-ship missiles, while others used their radars to guide land-based anti-ship missiles to their targets. Iran began to rely on its new Revolutionary Guard's navy, which used Boghammar speedboats: fitted with rocket launchers, RPGs, and heavy machine guns, these speedboats would launch surprise attacks against tankers and cause substantial damage. Iran also used aircraft and helicopters to launch Maverick missiles and unguided rockets at tankers."

This ultimately resulted in the following:

"Iranian speedboat attacks on Kuwaiti shipping led Kuwait to formally petition foreign powers on 1 November 1986 to protect its shipping. The Soviet Union agreed to charter tankers starting in 1987, and the United States Navy offered to provide protection for foreign tankers reflagged and flying the U.S. flag starting 7 March 1987 in Operation Earnest Will."

In a live shooting environment where there are innocent third parties present "Rules of Engagement" are always required.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Jul 14 - 03:12 AM

Thanks Q interesting and informative link it shows that the full "System" as it should be deployed requires three specialist, dedicated vehicles:

1: Buk Missile System Complete

2: Command & Control Vehicle

This is the vehicle fitted with communications and medium range air defence radar. It is this radar that would find and identify any potential target and then pass it on to the:

3: Missile Launch Vehicle

The large smooth dome seen on the right of the vehicle's "turret" houses the missile's fire control radar (Initial "gathering beam" and target acquisition radar) and the "camera-like" piece of kit mounted above, and just behind it possibly provides early flight guidance until the missile's own sensors lock onto target. The fire control radar has no means of interrogating a target but in local control, i.e. in use without the Command & Control Vehicle, the fire control radar will lock onto a target if pointed in the direction of an aircraft. This capability is built into the system so that launchers can afford some degree of protection should Command vehicles get knocked out (Priorities in attacking any armoured formation from the air is to take out the air defence component first then take out the armour - In attacking the air defence component the priority is to identify and take out the command vehicles first then the launchers themselves)

As Akenaton says the video is inconclusive and could only show a Launcher Vehicle repositioning.

The most damning "evidence" to date is the recorded voice traffic between a "Separatist" Commander, Igor Bezler, and a Russian Intelligence Officer, Colonel Vasily Geranin of the GRU in which the former reports the shooting down of a Ukrainian aircraft at around the same time Flight MH17 was shot down.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 30 Jul 14 - 04:30 AM

The Russians received an upgraded Buk M-3 system, with six missile tubes, in 2009.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Jul 14 - 06:27 AM

That does not necessarily mean that they no longer have earlier marks of the system. It was policy in the Red Army to retain equipment, in the event of war as reserve groups were called up to replace losses in action the "reservists" were reunited with the equipment that they trained and used during the time of their conscription. This policy had certain advantages and certain drawbacks, the upper echelons of the Red Army obviously thought that the former outweighed the latter.

"Inside the Soviet Army (ISBN 0-241-10889-6; Hamish Hamilton, 1982; also published in the United States, Prentice Hall, ISBN 0-02-615500-1), by Viktor Suvorov, which describes the general organisation, doctrine, and strategy of the Soviet armed forces"

They haven't changed.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jul 14 - 10:43 AM

Q, it is apparent that critical thinking is not your strong suit.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 30 Jul 14 - 12:31 PM

Of course you are right, Terribus. I was pointing at the recent upgrade of this weapon system, whose first models were issued by the Russians in the 1970s.

According to ABC (Australian) news today, the black boxes show shrapnel damage from a rocket explosion. The recorders are being "decrypted" in Britain.

Investigators are being held back from examining the crash site by fighting. Foreign minister for Australia is hopeful that the Ukrainian government will permit AFP officers to carry weapons on site.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: mayomick
Date: 09 Aug 14 - 07:40 AM

Malaysian media have concluded that the Ukraine government shot down MH 17, according to this article on wsws today:
http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2014/08/09/mala-a09.html
"Given the tightly controlled character of the Malaysian media, it appears that the accusation that Kiev shot down MH17 has the imprimatur of the Malaysian state. ......These charges from Malaysia are all the more significant, in that Malaysia is not a strategic adversary of the United States ........Unlike Russia, which already presented evidence suggesting Ukrainian involvement in the crash, Malaysia has no political motive for trying to discredit the US, the European powers, or their puppet regime in Kiev."

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Aug 14 - 09:00 AM

Just the World Socialist Website quoting "an article" in a Malaysian newspaper!

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Aug 14 - 12:35 PM

I tried to trace down the "article" which is being circulated by something called the World Socialist Network.

In New Straits Times I found an article (08/07/2014) describing damage to aircraft parts from a missile. It is in Malaysian, but Google translation says "experts" suggest the plane was shot down by a Sukhoi Su-25 fighter, quoting Novosti RIA (Russian News Service).
The article goes on to describe and post a picture of a circular hole in addition to fragmentation explosion damage on a piece of debris and suggest the plane was shot down by warplanes.

I went to the The Straits Times which has an English edition and is the premier English source in the region and did not find any mention of this. ANe article says nothing about damage particulars, and is without any speculation, but is devoted to calls for an international investigation (AFP service, July 18.)to determine cause.

On August 6, The New Straits Times said that a Dutch contractor will take over the search for flight MH 370, lost in the Indian Ocean. The search will start in September, and will cost an estimated $48 million dollars.

The airline has been taken over by the Malaysian government and trading in shares has been suspended.
The airline, which had a 5-star rating, will be reorganized.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Acorn4
Date: 10 Aug 14 - 04:47 AM

We were promised the results of the study of the second black box but so far these have not been forthcoming.

Is there something that our governments don't want us to know?

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: mayomick
Date: 10 Aug 14 - 07:15 AM

Yes, Keith just an article pointing to the significance of the Malaysian media reaching the conclusion that the murders were committed by the people you support in Ukraine
 "Given the tightly controlled character of the Malaysian media, it appears that the accusation that Kiev shot down MH17 has the imprimatur of the Malaysian state. "

Q , there was no need for you to trace down the article - I provided a blue clicky to it . There was no need for you put the word "article" in quotation marks - unless you didn't agree that it was an article.

"An article is a written work published in a print or electronic medium. It may be for the purpose of propagating the news, research results, academic analysis or debate." ...........wiki

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Aug 14 - 07:57 AM

One "article" in one paper.
Q said it was not printed in the English language version.

Subject: RE: BS: Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine
From: mayomick
Date: 10 Aug 14 - 09:41 AM

You don't want to find the New Straight Times article (sorry Q "article" ) - anymore than the Ukraine gvt wants to find the cockpit voice recording lol! Here it is anyway:

MH17: Pockmarks look like from very, very heavy machine gun fire, says first OSCE monitor on-scene



KUALA LUMPUR: INTELLIGENCE analysts in the United States had already concluded that Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 was shot down by an air-to-air missile, and that the Ukrainian government had had something to do with it.

This corroborates an emerging theory postulated by local investigators that the Boeing 777-200 was crippled by an air-to-air missile and finished off with cannon fire from a fighter that had been shadowing it as it plummeted to earth.

In a damning report dated Aug 3, headlined "Flight 17 Shoot-Down Scenario Shifts", Associated Press reporter Robert Parry said "some US intelligence sources had concluded that the rebels and Russia were likely not at fault and that it appears Ukrainian government forces were to blame".

This new revelation was posted on GlobalResearch, an independent research and media organisation.

In a statement released by the Ukrainian embassy on Tuesday, Kiev denied that its fighters were airborne during the time MH17 was shot down. This follows a statement released by the Russian Defence Ministry that its air traffic control had detected Ukrainian Air Force activity in the area on the same day.

They also denied all allegations made by the Russian government and said the country's core interest was in ensuring an immediate, comprehensive, transparent and unbiased international investigation into the tragedy by establishing a state commission comprising experts from the International Civil Aviation Organisation (ICAO) and Eurocontrol.

"We have evidence that the plane was downed by Russian-backed terrorist with a BUK-M1 SAM system (North Atlantic Treaty Organisation reporting name SA-11) which, together with the crew, had been supplied from Russia. This was all confirmed by our intelligence, intercepted telephone conversations of the terrorists and satellite pictures.

"At the same time, the Ukrainian Armed Forces have never used any anti-aircraft missiles since the anti-terrorist operations started in early April," the statement read.

Yesterday, the New Straits Times quoted experts who had said that photographs of the blast fragmentation patterns on the fuselage of the airliner showed two distinct shapes — the shredding pattern associated with a warhead packed with "flechettes", and the more uniform, round-type penetration holes consistent with that of cannon rounds.

Parry's conclusion also stemmed from the fact that despite assertions from the Obama administration, there has not been a shred of tangible evidence to support the conclusion that Russia supplied the rebels with the BUK-M1 anti-aircraft missile system that would be needed to hit a civilian jetliner flying at 33,000 feet.

Parry also cited a July 29 Canadian Broadcasting Corporation interview with Michael Bociurkiw, one of the first Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) investigators to arrive at the scene of the disaster, near Donetsk.

Bociurkiw is a Ukrainian-Canadian monitor with OSCE who, along with another colleague, were the first international monitors to reach the wreckage after flight MH17 was brought down over eastern Ukraine.

In the CBC interview, the reporter in the video preceded it with: "The wreckage was still smouldering when a small team from the OSCE got there. No other officials arrived for days".

"There have been two or three pieces of fuselage that have been really pockmarked with what almost looks like machinegun fire; very, very strong machinegun fire," Bociurkiw said in the interview.

Parry had said that Bociurkiw's testimony is "as close to virgin, untouched evidence and testimony as we'll ever get. Unlike a black-box interpretation-analysis long afterward by the Russian, British or Ukrainian governments, each of which has a horse in this race, this testimony from Bociurkiw is raw, independent and comes from one of the two earliest witnesses to the physical evidence.

"That's powerfully authoritative testimony. Bociurkiw arrived there fast because he negotiated with the locals for the rest of the OSCE team, who were organising to come later," Parry had said.

Retired Lufthansa pilot Peter Haisenko had also weighed in on the new shootdown theory with Parry and pointed to the entry and exit holes centred around the cockpit.

"You can see the entry and exit holes. The edge of a portion of the holes is bent inwards. These are the smaller holes, round and clean, showing the entry points most likely that of a 30mm caliber projectile.

"The edge of the other, the larger and slightly frayed exit holes, show shreds of metal pointing produced by the same caliber projectiles. Moreover, it is evident that these exit holes of the outer layer of the double aluminum reinforced structure are shredded or bent — outwardly."

He deduced that in order to have some of those holes fraying inwardly, and the others fraying outwardly, there had to have been a second fighter firing into the cockpit from the airliner's starboard side. This is critical, as no surface-fired missile (or shrapnel) hitting the airliner could possibly punch holes into the cockpit from both sides of the plane.

"It had to have been a hail of bullets from both sides that brought the plane down. This is Haisenko's main discovery. You can't have projectiles going in both directions — into the left-hand-side fuselage panel from both its left and right sides — unless they are coming at the panel from different directions.

"Nobody before Haisenko had noticed that the projectiles had ripped through that panel from both its left side and its right side. This is what rules out any ground-fired missile," Parry had said.


http://www.nst.com.my/node/20961