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Which songs are really sung?
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Subject: Which songs are sung by many? From: GUEST,Grishka Date: 31 Aug 14 - 10:39 AM The recent thread titled "What makes a new song a folk song?" has generated the usual categorizing once again. The label "folk song" suffices to put us on that well-trodden track. What I find more interesting is the question "Which songs are sung by many people without musical training, and why?" Conditions:
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Subject: RE: Which songs are really sung? From: GUEST,Ed Date: 31 Aug 14 - 11:21 AM Given that 'Rise Up Singing' is estimated to have sold over a million copies, I doubt there are many at all here in the UK that meet your criteria. I'm not sure why you exclude carols. I'm an atheist, but I like singing them. Why doesn't that count? The Beatles yes, but I'm pretty sure Yesterday isn't sung here by millions... |
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Subject: RE: Which songs are really sung? From: Musket Date: 31 Aug 14 - 11:52 AM You aren't supposed to enjoy them, that's why! They are group penance... Sorry, I'd promised myself I wouldn't join in on this thread. Did you know? Most successful artistes haven't had musical training, which widens your search somewhat. See Michael's Youtube offerings for details. Is he biting yet? |
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Subject: RE: Which songs are really sung? From: Jim Carroll Date: 31 Aug 14 - 02:31 PM "Yesterday isn't sung here by millions.." Might have been yesterday - or the day before maybe? Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Which songs are really sung? From: Bill D Date: 31 Aug 14 - 03:10 PM When I first moved to Wash. D.C. in 1977 and began attending music gatherings (mostly with people in the Folklore Society), the one song that almost everyone knew and would join in on was Utah Phillips' "The Goodnight-Loving Trail". It is still almost universally known in this arena. I seldom go where people are singing most pop songs, so I can't comment on what the average 'person on the street' might sing. |
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Subject: RE: Which songs are really sung? From: GUEST,john routledge Date: 31 Aug 14 - 04:52 PM I am reminded of Julie Walters' lovely line "There must be a better song" towards the end of Educating Rita. |
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Subject: RE: Which songs are really sung? From: GUEST Date: 31 Aug 14 - 05:04 PM Other than carols and singing along with the radio, the only song I can think of that a lot of non-musicians in the US ever sing is "Happy birthday to you." That's a sad thought. I've been to other places where there were dozens of songs that seemingly every person over the age of 10 could sing well, and would sing on the slightest encouragement. What does "RUS" mean? |
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Subject: RE: Which songs are really sung? From: Bill D Date: 31 Aug 14 - 05:37 PM RUS = Rise Up Singing,,, a book of lyrics used almost as a hymn book by some and reviled as inaccurate and silly by many. It 'appears' at sings and it often held in front of the face as a crutch. One of the most hotly debated items in 'folk' circles. I have a copy and haven't opened it for several years after finding really odd versions of songs and bad lyrics. |
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Subject: RE: Which songs are really sung? From: Joe Offer Date: 31 Aug 14 - 07:31 PM I lead a caroling group that hits 10 nursing homes every Fourth of July and Christmas. I suppose many or most won't get past Grishka's restrictions, but most of the songs we sing have the universality he's seeking. Some that will qualify even with Grishka are "I've Been Working on the Railroad," "You Are My Sunshine," and "Jingle Bells." Would "Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer" pass your muster, Grishka? What about "Yankee Doodle"? "Daisy, Daisy"? "Don't Fence Me In"? "Red River Valley"? People also seem to respond to "America the Beautiful," "Battle Hymn of the Republic" (and parodies), "Silent Night," "O Come All Ye Faithful" (and many know the Latin). On July 4, they respond to "God Bless America," "You're a Grand Old Flag," "I'm a Yankee Doodle Dandy," and "This Land Is Your Land." I don't know how it is in other countries, but older people in the U.S. know and sing patriotic and religious songs for pleasure. They often know the songs well, and can have a really good time singing them. I tried popular songs of the 30s and 40s, and the people didn't respond as well as I hoped they would. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: Which songs are really sung? From: GUEST Date: 31 Aug 14 - 09:43 PM If this is RUS: Rise Up Singing - Table of Contents, that's a lot of songs for one book. There are over 1,300 titles in that list. I counted 1,316, but some were duplicate titles. And there were many instances of two titles on one line; I may not have found all of those. I've collected and sung at least that many songs over the past 50 years, and my collection is a similar mix of traditional songs, new and old pop songs, and hymns. But only 91 of the 1,300 Rise Up Singing titles have ever been in my notebooks, and only 27 of them are in the notebooks that I use currently. How uncool does that make me? I studied the list because I thought it might give me some ideas for new songs to add to my notebooks. But I only found 9 that I would consider singing, and so many of the others were such horrible songs that I'm not sure it would be worth doing research on the several hundred that I've never heard of. |
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Subject: RE: Which songs are really sung? From: Joe Offer Date: 31 Aug 14 - 11:54 PM I'm doing proofreading and licensing contacts for Rise Again, the sequel to the Rise Up Singing songbook. I'm sure many of you will hate the second songbook almost as much as the first, but there really are some pretty good songs in each of them. And there are some songs in each that I don't like at all. Such is life. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: Which songs are really sung? From: Don Firth Date: 01 Sep 14 - 12:17 AM Barbara and I used to go to Seattle Song Circle every Sunday evening and thoroughly enjoyed it. Then gradually, after it met for some years, some members, mostly newcomers, started bringing song sheets and song books and singing from the sheet or book songs they apparently couldn't be bothered to learn. Jacque Brel was really big with a couple of people one year. Then copies of "Rise Up Singing" began appearing, and it was not long before it was "We will now sing hymn number 136…." And instead of going around in a circle (so everyone could get a chance) and singing individually, sometimes with the group joining in on choruses, everybody sang together with their noses in the book! I have a copy of "RUS," but I don't use it much as a song source. The editors or compilers have gone through the book and bowdlerized the words, editing them. From the usual versions that you might find in the Lomax collections or Sandburg's "Songbag," they are all so "politically correct" that it makes one want to gag!! Barbara and I haven't gone to Song Circle for several years. Boooooring!! Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: Which songs are really sung? From: Bert Date: 01 Sep 14 - 12:49 AM Here are some of the songs that I sing. I certainly can't perform all of them, but I sing them for personal pleasure from time to time. A - You're Adorable A Father's song (A Monkey fart should smell like a banana) A New Jerusalem A Nightingale Sang In Berkeley Square A Roving According to the Act Ace In The Hole Acres of Clams Adam in the Garden Adeste Fidelis Aiken Drum Ain' No Mo' Cane on de Brazos Ain't Gonna Grieve My Lord No More Ain't it Grand to be Bloomin Well Dead Alabama Bound Alice Blue Gown All for me Grog All I Have To Do Is Dream All through the night Alouette Amazing Grace Among my Souvenirs Ancient and Old Irish Condom D Annie Laurie Another Broken Heart Any Old wind that blows Are You Lonesome Tonight Ariseli Around the World As I go Rambling 'Round Ash Grove - The As Time Goes By Auld Lang Syne Aunt Rhody Away in a Manger Away Out on the Mountain Back Home Again Ballad of Bethnal Green Banana Boat Song Band Played Waltzing Matilda - The Banks of Newfoundland Banks of the Ohio Barbara Allen Barky's Farm A Bathing Angel A Battle of New Orleans Bear Went Over the Mountain Beer Glorious Beer Believe Me If All Those Endearing Young Charms Bestest Friend A Bheir Me O Bibbidi-Bobbidi-Boo Big Iron Big River Billy Boy Bless 'em All Blow the Candle Out Blow the Man Down Blow Ye Winds in the Morning Blowing in the wind Blue Christmas Blue Eyes Crying in the Rain A Blueberry Hill Bonnie Lass of Fyvie Botany Bay A Both Sides Now Bring a Little Water Sylvie British Workman's Grave A Brown Eyes why are you Blue Buffalo Girls Butterfingers Bye Bye Love Cailin mo rùin-sa Car Behind - The Careless Love Carlton Weaver Carolina In My Mind Carolina Moon Catch A Falling Star Cathewsalem Chandler's Wife - The Changing Partners Chivalrous Shark Cigareets and Whiskey Cindy City of New Orleans Cleaning Windows Clementine Click Go The Shears A Cold Cold Heart Colorado Girl A Columbus Landed Here D Columbus Stockade Come Inside Coming 'Round the Mountain Congo River Copper Kettle Cornish Nightingale - The Could I Have This Dance Country Vicar Crawdad Crazy Crazy Arms Cripple Creek Cuckoo's Nest A Daddy And Home Dahn the Plug'Ole Danny Boy Dark As the Dungeon Dashing Away With the Smoothing Iron Davy Crockett -- B. Hayes Daydream Believer D-Day Dodgers Dead or Alive Dear Ol' Dutch Dear Old Shannon Shore Deportees Derby Ram Did She Mention My Name Ding Dang Dong go the Wedding Bells Dirty Old Town Do Ye Ken John Peel? Donkey Riding Don't Dilly Dally Don't Fence Me In Don't Forbid Me Don't Laugh at Me 'cos I'm a Fool Don't Make Her Choose Don't Make me Love You Don't Put Your Finger Up Your Nose Don't You Hate it When... A Doodle Let Me Go Down by the Riverside Down in the Valley Dream Lover Dressed in the Sixties Drunken Sailor Early One Morning Earth Angel -- Penguins Eat Worms Ebeneezer - The Edmund Fitzgerald - The El Paso Espresso Machine Every Day Exponential Blarney Far Away Places Fearsome Phallic finial Fields of Athenry - The Fireship - The First Time - The Flag with a thousand stars. - The Foggy Dew Foggy Mountain Top Follow Me Follow the Band Folsom Prison Four Old Whores Fox - The Frankie and Johnny Free From the Chaingang Now A Freight Train Frere Jaques Froggy Went A Courting D Frozen Logger F-Word Galloping Major Gentle On My Mind Gentleman Soldier Give My Love To Rose Gnat - The Gold Rush is Over - The Golden Vanity Go to Sea Once More Good King Wenceslas Good Luck to the Barley Mow Goodbye Goodbye Old Ship of Mine Goodnight Irene Goodnight Ladies Goodnight-Loving Trail Grace Darling Grand Coulee Dam Grandfather's Clock Grandma Got Run Over By A Reindeer Grandma's Feather Bed Great Pretender Green Door Green Green Grass Of Home Green Grow the Rushes Oh Greenland Fisheries Gypsy Rover Half as Much Hallelujah I'm a Bum Halls Of Montezuma Happy Wanderer Harbour Le Cou A Harry Pollitt Have I Told You Lately That I Love You? Have You Ever been Lonely Headed For Nashville A Heart of the Appaloosa Heartaches By The Number Heartbeat Help Me Make It Thru the Night Henry the Eighth Her Hair Hung Down in Ringlets D He's Got The Whole World In His Hands He's in the JailHouse Now Hey hey Good Lookin Highway 202 Hippopotamus Song Hit the Road Jack Hobo Bill Home On The Range Honey Comb Horrible Song D Horsey Horsey Hot Buttered Rum Hound Dog House of the Rising Sun How I wish Hullabaloo belay Hush L'il Baby I Believe I Can't Help but Wonder Where I'm Bound I can't help falling in love with you I can't help it if I'm still in love with you I don't want to join the Army I fall to pieces I Got Stripes I know where I'm going I Like to get my Loving I love you because I Ride an Old Paint I Saw Mommy Kissin' Santa Claus I Still Miss Someone I walk the line I Was Born Ten Thousand Years Ago I was born under a wandering star I Wish I Was Single Again I Wonder Who's Kissing Her Now If I was the marrying kind Ilkley Moor Baht 'At I'll Never Get Out of This World Alive I'll Take the Legs I'll Take You Home Again Kathleen I'm a Bold Policeman I'm a Little Teapot I'm not Saying that I Love You I'm so lonesome I could cry I'm walking behind you I'm Your Flag A In Eleven More Months and Ten More Days In Me Liverpool Home A In Mobile In the Middle of the House In the Old Bazaar in Kabul Incy Mincy Spider Island Woman It Doesn't Matter Anymore It's a Long way to Tipparary It's Almost Tomorrow I've Got a Lovely Bunch of Coconuts I've Got Sixpence Jamaica Farewell Jambalaya A Jellied Eels John B John Hardy John Henry Johnny I Hardly Knew Ye Johnny Todd Jug of Punch Just a Texas Cowhand Kawliga Am Keeper - The Kentucky Moon Kilgarry Mountain Kiss for the Road A Kisses Sweeter Than Wine Knees up Mother Brown Lambeth Walk Lambton Worm - The Last Farewell - The Last Thing on My Mind Leave Her Johnny Leaving of Liverpool Let it be Me Let Me Go Lover Let's all sing Like the Birdies Sing Lilt of a Grandmother's Song - The Little Boxes Little Sally Racket Lively Liverpool Judies D Liverpool Lullaby Living Doll London Derriere Lonely Woman A Long Black Veil Love Is A Many Splendored Thing Love is a Teasing A Love is Strange Love Letters In The Sand Lowlands Lucille Maggie May D Mairzy Doats Mama Don't 'Low Man in Black - The Manchester Rambler Manura Manyah A Marrow Bones Mary Ellen Carter - The Master McGrath A Maybe it's Because I'm a Londoner Mayor of Bayswater's Daughter McDonald's Deformed Farm D McDonald's Kitchen Me And Bobby McGee Mercedes Benz Mermaid -The - Shel Silverstein Mermaid -The - Traditional Michael Finnegan Michael Row The Boat Ashore Mid-Life Crisis Midnight Special Minstrel Boy - The Miss the Mississippi and You Molly Malone Momma Spit A Morning Has Broken Mother the Queen of my Heart Mountain Dew Mr Bojangles Mr. Tambourine Man Muddy River Catfish Mush Mush Music! Music! Music! My Bonnie Lies Over the Ocean My Gal's a Corker My God How the Money Rolls In D My Old Man's a Dustman My Rough and Rowdy Ways My Sweetheart's The Mule in the Mines D My Truly Truly Fair New York Girls Nice Quiet Day Night Visiting Song D No More Booze No Particular Place To Go Nobby Hall Nobody Loves Like an Irishman D Noreen Bawn Nutting Girl O the Shearing's Not for You Oh Boy Oh how he lied Oh Little Town of Bethlehem Oh Lonesome Me Oh Sir Jasper Old 97 A Old Chizzum (Chisholm) Trail Old Dan Tucker Old Dun Cow Old Joe Clark Old Kent Road Old King Cole Old Orange Flute Old Pals Old She-Crab Old Sow Song On a Monday Morning Oh On Top of Old Smoky On Top of Spaghetti Once in Royal David's City One Man Went to Mow One More River One Piece at a Time Only You -- The Platters On Wings of Song Oohjah Tree Oon Pah Pah Orange and the Green Orange Blossom Special Oranges and Lemons O'Reilly's Daughter Out of Town Paddy Lay Back Paddy McGinty's Goat Paddy Works on the Railway Paper of Pins Parabolical Parting Glass Patriot Game Peach Pickin Time in Georgia Philadelphia Lawyer Pick a Bale of Cotton Picking in the Wind Pig and the Inebriate Plastic Flower Seeds E Precious Lord Pub with no Beer Puff the Magic Dragon Putting on the Style A Que Sera Queen of the Chesapeke Bay Railroad Bill Raining In My Heart Rambles of Spring Ramblin Boy Ramblin Rover Ranzo Ranzo Rattling Bog Real Old Mountain Dew Red Red Redneck Red River Valley Red Sails in the Sunset Reuben James Ribbon of Darkness Riders in the Sky Riding on a Camel Right Said Fred Ring of Fire Road to Nowhere Robert Emmett D Rock Around The Clock -- Bill Haley Rock Island Line Roddy McCorley D Roll Alabama Roll Roll in My Sweet Baby's Arms Roll Your Leg Over Rose - The Rose of Tralee - The Rudolf the Red Nosed Reindeer Running Bear Running 'round the Fountains Sail Away Ladies Save the Last Dance for Me Scarborough Fair Scarlet Ribbons Seven Dear Old Ladies A Seven Lonely Days Sexual Desires of a Camel She Wore a Yellow Ribbon Shenandoah Shine Eye Girl Shoals of Herring Shopping Cart Silicone Cindy D Simple Gifts Sing it pretty sue Sing Me That Song Sing Something Irish to Me Singing The Blues Sixteen Tons Size Doesn't Matter A Skip to My Lou Skye Boat Song Slow Boat to China Smoke Gets In Your Eyes Snowbird Soldier Soldier Won't You Marry Me Some Days Are Diamonds Song for a Winter's Night Song of the Thrush Sourwood Mountain South Australia A Spanish Ladies D Spare Time A Springtime in Alaska Star Spangled Banner Stars & Snowflakes A Starving to Death on My Government Claim Stewball Still I Love Him A Stormalong Streets of Laredo Streets of London Sugartime Summer Wages Swansea Town Once More Sweet Betsy From Pike Swing Low Sweet Chariot Take a Whiff on Me Take these chains from my heart Take This Hammer Tanqueray Martinis Tara's Harp Teddy Bears Picnic Ten Green Bottles That's Not My Colorado That's What You Get for Loving Me There is a Tavern in the Town There was a Little Sparrow There's a Hole in my Bucket There's never a Good time for Leaving Theresa's Back in Town D Thing - The This Land is Your Land This Old Man This Ole House -- Rosemary Clooney Thrashing Machine A Three Lovely Lasses from Banion Three Minute Man Three Score and Ten Tie Me Kangaroo Down Till we Meet Again Times Are Getting Hard Times They Are a Changing Tom Dooley Tom Pierce D Too Young Tumbleweeds Turkey in the Straw Tweedle Dee -- Georgia Gibbs or LaVerne Baker Twelve Days of Christmas Twinkle, twinkle, little star Ukulele D Unchained Melody Unicorns Vase - The Vicar of Bray -The Wabash Cannonball Waiting for a Train Walking In The Rain Waltzing Matilda A Waltzing With Bears Waters of Tyne A Wayward Wind - The Wee Kirkcudbright Centipede - The Well - The Welly Boot Song - The West Virginia Snow What a Mouth When Irish Eyes are Smiling When they sound the Last All Clear When your Pickle Glows at night A Where Have All the Flowers Gone Whiffenpoof Song While London Sleeps Whip Jamboree Whiskey Johnny D Who's Sorry Now Why Don't Women Like Me Why Oh Why Wild Mountain Thyme A Woad Wonderful Crocodile Worried Man Wraggle-Taggle Gypsies - The Wreck of Old 97 Ye Canna Shove yer Granny off a Bus D Yellow on the Broom Yellow Rose Of Texas -- Mitch Miller You Are My Sunshine You Belong to Me You can take a silver dollar Your Cheatin' Heart |
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Subject: RE: Which songs are really sung? From: Joe Offer Date: 01 Sep 14 - 01:09 AM Hi, Don - To their credit, Rise Up Singing editors Peter Blood and Annie Patterson recognized the Error of their Ways and corrected most of those bowdlerized lyrics. Recent editions of the book have better versions of the lyrics. But I gotta admit that the songs in Bert's list are generally more singable than what's to be found in Rise Up Singing. There are many variables that make a singaround sink or swim - use of a book or lyrics sheet can bring a session down, but not necessarily. I suppose the biggest factor is the singing ability and experience of the singers. A singaround group can accommodate a few non-singers and can help them to grow. But if the majority of people in a group are nonsingers, it's going to be hard to have a good time making music. When I'm singing with a bunch of nonsingers, I prefer to be in charge, like when I'm leading songs at a campfire. I can get people to sing almost every song, but in a way that can be alive and fun. Our nursing home caroling sessions are like that. In the best venues, everybody sings, and everybody has a good time. When a nursing home has us sing during a meal or strolling through hallways, it's a lot harder. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: Which songs are really sung? From: Don Firth Date: 01 Sep 14 - 02:36 AM That's good to hear, Joe. I picked up a copy in a local bookstore, read the title list, and bought it. I was when I got it home that I discovered how much of the material in the book had been rendered "politically correct." Including the illustrations. Everybody has dark skin. But not too dark. And their features were sort of indefinite. Racially not quite this, not quite that. And miscellaneous other things. If the book has been "de-bowdlerized," I might see if I can find a copy of the new edition. Because it would have been a good source if you could trust the lyrics. Seattle Song Circle flushed a lot of good people out on Sunday evenings. Merritt Herring was up from California and living on Vashon Island in Puget Sound, Sally and John Ashford, Mary Wilson, Mary Garvey, John Dwyer—all kinds of good people. We About the only group songs we did were sea chanteys, and the bunch got so good at those that we were invited to sing at the Moss Bay Sail and Chantey festival—on the deck of the Wawona, a schooner that used to sail various kinds of cargo up and down the West Coast. I got a chance to sing a bunch of fo'c'sle chanties in a genuine fo'c'sle. And on one of the nights of the festival, we did a concert in a theater in Kirkland, Wash., across Lake Washington from Seattle, on Moss Bay. A whole bunch of Canadians came down from Vancouver, B.C., Paddy Hernon, Paddy Graber, and a bunch of others, adding their prodigious talents to the event. And then we started getting a bunch of newcomers, which would have been a good thing, were it not that instead of wanting to learn the songs as we did, they insisted on using song sheets and coming with an armload of books they sang from. Looking back on it, we could have been hard-nosed about drawing some guidelines for the group, but . . . didn't happen, and things pretty much went to pot. The "old timers" like Merritt, John and Sally, John Dwyer, et al got pretty fed up and dropped out. Last I heard, the Seattle Song Circle is still sitting around singing together out of "Rise Up Sinking." But I'll see if I can rustle up a new copy and give it a look. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: Which songs are really sung? From: Bert Date: 01 Sep 14 - 03:37 AM Yes Joe, you can certainly get people to sing. I remember you around the campfire, standing on one leg, with a flower pot hat on your head, leading us all in a song. One of my treasured memories. If anyone needs a copy of my songbook, send me a PM. |
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Subject: RE: Which songs are really sung? From: Joe Offer Date: 01 Sep 14 - 04:05 AM Hmmm.... I don't remember the flower pot, but I have been known to sport unusual headgear.... The biggest thrill I've ever had singing, is singing for people with dementia and having them sing along - knowing the words from memory. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: Which songs are really sung? From: Haruo Date: 01 Sep 14 - 04:25 AM Don exaggerates by hearsay the failings of the Seattle Song Circle. Some do use RUS there, but some don't. Some sing things they really know, others don't. And they're pretty good about going around the circle. It's a mixed bag. |
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Subject: RE: Which songs are really sung? From: Joe Offer Date: 01 Sep 14 - 04:52 AM I suspected that, Haruo. If you believe that people should sing, you also have to accept the fact that they may not sing perfectly when they're just beginning. Accomplished singers might find themselves more interested, if they'd put positive effort into improving the quality of singarounds instead of complaining about the beginners. If a singaround is dead, sing something that gives it life. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: Which songs are really sung? From: Les in Chorlton Date: 01 Sep 14 - 02:19 PM You will find some of the songs we sing Cheers |
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Subject: RE: Which songs are really sung? From: GUEST,Grishka Date: 01 Sep 14 - 02:24 PM I do not object against using RUS and other songbooks (- note that I am not talking about ritualized singarounds like the one Joe wrote about where RUS was banned explicitly -), but there are some songs in them that I suspect are only sung by the owners. This indicates to me that they are not popular in the sense of quasi folk songs. Other songs have grown wings so that their (copyrighted) songbook origin is not even known to most singers; that is real folklore. "Happy Birthday" and many similar songs, notably children's songs, are folk songs by all standards, even if formally copyrighted. What I find most interesting, in the light of that other thread "... new song ...", is pop songs that made it into de-facto folklore. "You Are My Sunshine" is a good example. Musical folklore is still alive beyond the "Folk" genre and scene, but not as alive as it could be. "They don't write them like that any more ..." As for hymns and anthems, they inevitably have an un-folkish component, particularly when sung at rituals. This is true even if the singers may not wish to profess their faith in the lyrics taken literally. In a recent thread about football, national anthems of questionable lyrics were discussed, notably the Marseillaise. Like the "Battle Hymn", they are often sung by drunkards in pubs with great laughter - still, they don't have that real folk song character in my ears. Any more pop songs that are sung in your pubs by young people? From Bert's long list, I do not see many that I remember ever to have heard in such a context. "Blowing in the Wind," OK, but that usually counts as "Folk". |
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Subject: RE: Which songs are really sung? From: Brian Peters Date: 01 Sep 14 - 02:49 PM It's a good question but, if 'You Are My Sunshine' is the kind of thing you're looking for, I'd love to know whether there's a difference in how well-known it is between 'ordinary people' in (a) the 60+ age-group, (b) the 40-60s, and (c) the 20-40s. Plenty of pop festival goers can sing along with every song in the repertoires of the bands onstage, but what's more interesting is how many songs survive through succeeding generations without the continuing stimulus of the artist or band being around to perform them, or TV ads usage, etc. And lots of people know the chorus of 'Yellow Submarine', but how many could sing a whole verse without a crib sheet? |
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Subject: RE: Which songs are really sung? From: GUEST,Anne Neilson Date: 01 Sep 14 - 05:27 PM As a Scot, I'd have to go with Auld Lang Syne (even if the singers muddle some of the verses!) and the Metrical Psalms version of Psalm 23 -- The Lord's My Shepherd. |
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Subject: RE: Which songs are really sung? From: Bert Date: 01 Sep 14 - 06:38 PM Les in Chorlton - it is scary just how many of those songs that I don't know. |
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Subject: RE: Which songs are really sung? From: Joe Offer Date: 02 Sep 14 - 01:15 AM I found it interesting to see how many songs on the list from Les in Chorlton, are sung regularly in the folk music clubs of San Francisco and Washington, DC. |
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Subject: RE: Which songs are really sung? From: DMcG Date: 02 Sep 14 - 03:20 AM And lots of people know the chorus of 'Yellow Submarine', but how many could sing a whole verse without a crib sheet? I am reminded of an Alex Glasgow song "Geordie the Professional": He sings "The Blaydon Races", (which he needed to rehearse) But cannot quite remember if there is a second verse. And that does seem to be the fate of many composed songs that become highly popular. The chorus may well be near universal (in some sizeable area), the verses all disappear. I bet you could read many of the verses as poetry without them being recognised. "Down at the Old Bull and Bush" verses, for example. A very few verses have greater recognitions for some reason, and I think "It's a long road the Tipperary" is in that category. |
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Subject: RE: Which songs are really sung? From: Les in Chorlton Date: 02 Sep 14 - 03:21 AM Intrestin Bert - We put them together because we think they are amongst the most often sung songs in UK folk clubs, singarounds and folk festivals where people sing mostly but not exclusively traditional songs. Clearly I have drifted quite away from the OP. Well Joe - what did you find? |
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Subject: RE: Which songs are really sung? From: Marje Date: 02 Sep 14 - 04:54 AM I know dozens and dozens of folk(ish) songs, including most of those listed by Les, and can sing them by heart, but if asked to lead a group of non-folkies in song -this is in England - I'd be scraping around to find many that they knew more than a few lines of. Apart from hymns, carols, God Save the Queen, and Happy Birthday, there's not much of a central core. I supppose there are: Ilkeley Moor Clementine Molly Malone You are my Sunshine Auld Lang Syne (but only one verse) You'll Never Walk Alone (and this only because of its use in football) When the Saints (ditto) Drunken Sailor Tipperary Pack up Your Troubles Daisy Daisy ... but I'm not sure whether young people would all know even those now. And it's sad to note how few of the above are even English or traditional, let alone both. Nor do I think (to answer Grishka's question above) that young people sing pop songs - or indeed anything else except perhaps a football anthem - in pubs, at least not in my hearing. There are a lot more songs that other people will recognise and even request, and they may join in with choruses and refrain lines, but in most cases they won't be able to sing more than about half a verse, and would need a competent person (teacher, scout leader,folkie) to lead them. Marje |
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Subject: RE: Which songs are really sung? From: GUEST,Grishka Date: 02 Sep 14 - 05:59 AM Good point, Brian (01 Sep 14 - 02:49 PM). If a song that once was in vogue is sung later only by the same generation, it may count as nostalgia rather than true popularity. I remember "You Are My Sunshine", first published in 1939, sung in 2005 by middle-aged pub singers in England. Of course, I do not know whether this is statistically representative, hence my question in this thread. As for "Yesterday" (1965), it is today sung by teenagers, e.g. in Germany, where I currently live. Typical question: "Grishka, what is the second chord of Yesterday in D major?" Crib sheets are not necessarily an indicator of lack of popularity. I think they always accompanied folk singing, since the advent of literacy. Often we read that a folk song cannot be reconstructed in its original state because it had never be written down - chances are that many crib sheets existed, but none survived. Singing for pleasure need not be atoned for by avoidable exercises of memory. The same applies to song books, as I wrote, unless they are treated as hymnals of the Folk Faith. (The relation between faith or patriotism and pleasure is a complex one, often sharply differing with culture and tradition.) |
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Subject: RE: Which songs are really sung? From: GUEST Date: 02 Sep 14 - 06:17 AM What you haven't mentioned in Rise Up Singing is the publishers, Quaker Song of Amherst MA. It's taken the US in the same direction the UK went in the 1920s, with the National Songbook, where a group of well-meaning but fundamentally ignorant middle-class Captain Mainwarings decided that folksong belonged to everyone, regardless of background, and so we had a generation of Gypsy Rovers. Fair enough, it gave something for the Revival to work off, but it's also put us 20 years back in the UK as we had to eliminate both that and the Garfunkels, with all respect to our American colleagues. It's the persistence of that second dynamic which gave rise to the "What is" thread, as it opened the door which had hitherto been firmly closed to original composition, and the Trad/Prog question, which thankfully isn't as virulent as it was in Jazz. What is interesting is the crossover of showtunes into the populist repertoire. This is not new, of course, one of the earliest useful collections is the corpus of The Beggars Opera. One interesting aspect of why people don't sing is because commercial pop is not singable. I've just trawled through the UK airwaves at the moment to listen to what is actually being played, and it has the following features: strong percussion, piano, nasal. Nothing is singable by the population. People don't go to church, so in most of the UK women don't sing, and so don't teach their children to. All is not lost, however: I sing with London's Southbank VoiceLab and was roped in by Radio 3 earlier this year at the end of their Southbank Residency to lead half the bar in a rendition of Pharrell Williams' Happy - it's ballad-form, no instrumentals, and a relatively simple structure, and although the thing was impromptu (what happens when a choir over-hypes itself), virtually nobody copped out and some people really surprised themselves. Another event this last weekend made it possible for couples to get married almost en mass, saving the cost of huge receptions - VoiceLab was all over the shop, getting them involved. People want to sing, but have nothing to sing with. Perhaps it's time to get out of the back room of the pub and into the street. |
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Subject: RE: Which songs are really sung? From: Les in Chorlton Date: 02 Sep 14 - 08:27 AM We were on a Ramblers Holiday in Italy. One night we sang Happy Birthday to our friend. A collection of 20 or so local Italian people sang an Italian 'Happy Birhtday' type song back. So we sang The Manchester Rambler and they sang what sounded like a 'community singsong' song. And so it went on for about an hour us singing mostly English Folk Songs and the Italians sing what I can only describe as 'community singsong' songs. Not Italian pop songs that I have ever heard. Then someone suggested a Beatles song - and off we went - they knew them as well as we did - for about half an a hour which included a international duet on Eleanor Rigby - tears all round. Our average age was probably 60+ and theirs 50+ |
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Subject: RE: Which songs are really sung? From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 02 Sep 14 - 12:58 PM Last year I was at a tableful of American Scout leaders, people mostly in their 40's, I think. I was asked to play dulcimer a bit. When I said I would play "My Grandfather's Clock," they looked worried. But when we got to the chorus: "But it stopped...short... never to go again, Till the old man died," they brightened up, straightened up, and sang with a will. (That's odd. Windows doesn't think 'tableful' is a word. It is now.) |
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Subject: RE: Which songs are really sung? From: GUEST,Anne Neilson Date: 02 Sep 14 - 01:53 PM Leeneia, I have often taught a parody of 'Grandfather's Clock' orally to primary school pupils aged 8/9 -- and within three repetitions of the first verse of 'My Grandfather's Socks' (written by James Curran, an immigrant from Ireland to Glasgow in the 1870s, and the man who was also responsible for 'Fitba Crazy'), they have pinned both tune and text fairly securely! Just confirms for me that people like to sing a real tune with words that are pleasing to them -- because of the story, the emotion or even the joke! |
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Subject: RE: Which songs are really sung? From: GUEST,Grishka Date: 02 Sep 14 - 03:33 PM Guest 02 Sep 14 - 06:17 AM is of course right that most pop songs are not singable without percussion etc. After all, they are meant to be bought, and the singers are sold as stars with supernatural power. If pop songs became folklore nevertheless, they had to be seized by the folks, which was successful only in rare cases. Barriers of different kinds, but equally high, are around classical music and many other genres. Funny parodies can make their way under those barriers, as described by Anne. I hope we will get more songs like the best ones mentioned above, that are singable without conforming to a "folk" cliché. All Mudcatters value tradition, but whenever a tradition is consciously upheld, it means that it is crumbling. The imperative "Rise Up!" suggests a heroic effort (Arabic: jihad), not pleasure and confidence. |
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Subject: RE: Which songs are really sung? From: GUEST Date: 02 Sep 14 - 04:33 PM Marje: but I'm not sure whether young people would all know even those now. I know all of those, some with all verses, some not quite so complete, but I'm probably of the last generation that *would* (I'm 59). My own children would know very few of those songs, and even for me, Tipperary, Pack up Your Troubles and Daisy Daisy are "songs of my grandparents' generation" so I'm not surprised that they're disappearing from the "collective memory". Not sure why it's a bad thing.....these type of songs would naturally have a mainstream lifetime of only 2-3 generations, IMO, except for the odd one that has stuck around much longer. In fact I'm surprised they've gone on as long as they have....they're still sung to an extent by the people who visit care homes and do Sunday afternoon recitals to the old folks....but the "old folks" currently in such places are (except for the most senior) much more likely to think of those songs as being from their parents' generation, with songs by Elvis Presley and contemporaries being much stronger in current care home denizens' collective memory than these songs. |
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Subject: RE: Which songs are really sung? From: Rob Naylor Date: 02 Sep 14 - 06:23 PM "Guest" above was me with a dead cookie. |
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Subject: RE: Which songs are really sung? From: Herga Kitty Date: 03 Sep 14 - 04:06 AM Les's story reminds me of one of our trips to the Flanders battlefields (with various folkies from the Maidenhead, Herga and other folk clubs), when we stayed in Talbot House in Poperinge (Tubby Clayton's original Everyman's club for R&R during WW1). On Saturday evening we had a concert party / singaround, with Belgian guests from Poperinge and Ypres. We sang "Little Cottage in a Wood" (with actions) and our Belgian friends then sang it in Flemish (with actions)! Kitty |
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