Songs in minor key that aren't sad?

Subject: RE: Songs in minor key that aren't sad?
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 19 Oct 17 - 07:14 AM

Surely, surely this has to qualify?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7vk5keNbRc

Enjoy!

Subject: RE: Songs in minor key that aren't sad?
From: GUEST,Kenny B Sans Kuku
Date: 15 Oct 17 - 12:25 PM

Red Rose Caf? a happy wee song although it does go from minor to major for the chorus
I find Aimee McPherson a happy weew song and Olga from the Volga has mixed emotions

Subject: RE: Songs in minor key that aren't sad?
From: Acorn4
Date: 14 Oct 17 - 04:11 AM

Someone mentioned "Dance me to the end of Love" earlier.

Ironic that what is probably Laughing Len's happiest song is in a minor key.

Subject: RE: Songs in minor key that aren't sad?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 13 Oct 17 - 03:48 PM

Many of the songs mentioned in this thread are done in minor keys because they are comic takes upon themes which, when treated seriously, are often done in minor keys. Adopting the minor key is a very broad form of parody.

Any song about, say, the supernatural is apt to be in a minor key, whether it treats the subject seriously or not.

Subject: RE: Songs in minor key that aren't sad?
From: Merritt
Date: 13 Oct 17 - 01:04 PM

+1 the Erie Canal Song or Low Bridge, Everybody Down first published in 1905. When I was growing up, and then when my kids were growing up, this was a go-to family-sings-together-in-the-car and campfire song. I always thought of it as Not Sad. Now that I play/sing it regularly (verses in Am w/ bridge and chorus built around C major) for an unlicensed material-only gig, I did some research cause I wanted to be able to tell acoupla stories about it. Well, darned if it ain't a Sad Song; Although it's sometimes tagged as an early-20th century "comic song," the author, Thomas Allen, wrote it (and likely stole some of it) as a nostalgic lament for a lost era when barges on the canal were moved by mules and mule drivers; steam cars proved to be more efficient.

Subject: RE: Songs in minor key that aren't sad?
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 13 Oct 17 - 10:07 AM

My friend Anja's "Slow Night For Crime" is definitely not sad, and in a minor key:

Anja graefe (Anju) Slow Night For Crime

Subject: RE: Songs in minor key that aren't sad?
From: Amos
Date: 13 Oct 17 - 09:27 AM

High Barbaree
Township 19
The Trail of the Buffalo
The Ox Driver's Song
Whiskey in the Jar

Dozens of "come all ye's"

I think it's a non-question, really.

Subject: RE: Songs in minor key that aren't sad?
From: Cool Beans
Date: 11 Oct 17 - 07:33 PM

Joshua Fit the Battle of Jericho.
Puttin' on the Ritz

Subject: RE: Songs in minor key that aren't sad?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 02:57 PM

You can't go back to Constantinople.

Subject: RE: Songs in minor key that aren't sad?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 02:55 PM

Here are the non-sad tunes I play on my dulcimer in DAG tuning.


Are you sleepin', Maggie?                              

Black is the color of my true love's hair E 5th
Blow the candle out A 1st

Can't help but wonder where I'm bound E 5th
Cantigas de Santa Maria (to be researched)
Charade (movie theme) E 5th

Come you merry lads & lasses D 4th
Darlin' Corey G 0

the Dove she is a pretty bird E 5th (6.5)

Drunken sailor   E 5th (6.5)
Elm tree branches C 3rd
Froggie went a-courting A 1st
God rest ye merry, gentlemen A 1st

Gwcw fach   E 5th (6.5)

I got a mule and her name is Sal A 1st
If you miss the train I'm on C 3rd

Let all mortal flesh keep silence A 1st

Masters in this hall A 1st

My lord, what a morning F-6/5
Now the grn blade rises
   (Noel nouvelet)A 1st
Nyth a gog   E 4th
O come, o come, Emmanuel A 1st
Old Chisholm trail A 1st
Row yr boat to Jesus' side D 4th
Scarborough Fair   A 1st (6.5)
Scheherazade themes
Singers, sing E 5th
Star of the County Down C 3rd
Summertime Porgy & Bess A hi 8th
Sweet the evening air of May A 1st

Swing low, sweet chariot F# 6 1/2
Turn ye to me A 1st

Wayward wind D 4th
Wild Rover E 5th (House Band version)

Subject: RE: Songs in minor key that aren't sad?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 02:48 PM

Well, I always think of "Sultans of Swing" as being an "up song".

Young Sultans

Subject: RE: Songs in minor key that aren't sad?
From: GUEST,seldiora
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 10:43 PM

Feeling Good - Michael Buble; Uptown Funk - Bruno Mars; Hello - OMFG

Subject: RE: Songs in minor key that aren't sad?
From: Amos
Date: 25 Sep 15 - 11:46 AM

The Days of '49 and Blue Mountain Lake are both based in a minor key and are rollicking and funny tunes.

A

Subject: RE: Songs in minor key that aren't sad?
From: GUEST,Joe Rodgers
Date: 25 Sep 15 - 12:42 AM

Who stole the Keeshka ? ( on You Tube, I would think)

Subject: RE: Songs in minor key that aren't sad?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 24 Sep 15 - 11:20 PM

Human beings constantly set up systems and then tinker with them. Sometime in 1200's, somebody finished up and major scale, the minor scales, and the modes. Two weeks later, somebody started tinkering with them.

If a song is accompanied mostly by chords with an 'm' in them, then for all practical purposes it's a minor song. It could be modal, but who cares, really?

There are hundreds of tunes that start out minor, go to major to create some interest, then go back to minor. The reverse is also true.

Speaking of tinkering, that song by Thomas Mudd looks to be in G/Em, but it includes several G#'s and D#'s.   It's a real original. Thanks for the link.

I have another song for the list: Drill, Ye Tarriers, Drill.

Subject: RE: Songs in minor key that aren't sad?
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Sep 15 - 04:39 PM

Rhapsody in Blue

Subject: RE: Songs in minor key that aren't sad?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Sep 15 - 05:30 AM

Johnny Jump Up.

Subject: RE: Songs in minor key that aren't sad?
From: Long Firm Freddie
Date: 24 Sep 15 - 05:09 AM

Love Potion No 9 (Clovers/Searchers)

LFF

Subject: RE: Songs in minor key that aren't sad?
From: GUEST,Brendan R.
Date: 23 Sep 15 - 07:45 PM

You Should Be Dancing (Bee Gees)
Boogie Wonderland (Earth, Wind and Fire)

Subject: RE: Songs in minor key that aren't sad?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 02 Dec 14 - 02:46 AM

"Misirlou" is in the hijazkar scale - E F ^G A B c ^d e going up, with a D natural sometimes going down. That's a major mode because the third (^G) is major.

Subject: RE: Songs in minor key that aren't sad?
From: GUEST,J S Bach
Date: 01 Dec 14 - 08:46 PM

Just curious, can one of the major-key Misirlou people post a link to a recording showing what they're talking about?

The version that I sing, accompanied with E, Am, and Dm, is sung here by Sofia Vembo, and here by a modern group.

Subject: RE: Songs in minor key that aren't sad?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Dec 14 - 07:24 PM

Has anyone mentioned Bonny Ship The Diamond ?-fairly jolly and definitely Aeolian.

Subject: RE: Songs in minor key that aren't sad?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 01 Dec 14 - 05:30 PM

That's in ahavoh rabboh (minor with a sharp 7th), I think? It's a better example, as it certainly isn't sad.

Subject: RE: Songs in minor key that aren't sad?
From: GUEST,Choirmistress
Date: 01 Dec 14 - 05:17 PM

I forgot Heiveinu Shalom Aleichem.

Subject: RE: Songs in minor key that aren't sad?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 01 Dec 14 - 03:48 PM

The first part of "Hava Nagila" is in the freygish mode, which has a sharpened third. In most people's music theory it's the third that determines whether a tune is major or minor. The freygish flat second doesn't count either way.

Probably the commonest seven-note mode worldwide throughout history has been the dorian, which is a minor mode by the same reasoning. It's been used for every kind of music imaginable. You can't claim that people only sang sad songs until the major scale came along in the Middle Ages.

I'm not sure where this "minor=sad" cliche came from. In 18th century music it doesn't fit at all; composers often associated *particular* scales with particular moods, but the key centre mattered as much as the intervals in the scale (since it was both together that determined what kind of sounds you got from the instruments of the time). For Mozart, D minor is associated with dramatic action (as in Don Giovanni, where it predominated); G minor was predominantly gloomy and introspective; C minor had much the same associations as E flat, used for static and solemn ritual (as in The Magic Flute); E minor had the same uses as D and G, used for light dance music, the sort of thing that most easily fitted on the flute. A few composers used F minor for really dark stuff (like Haydn in his piano variations) but by the time you get to Beethoven, F major was generally dragged in along with it and you couldn't really tell which mode any nominally F minor piece was really in (just as Beethoven's Fifth is nominally in C minor, but he uses that the same dramatic-announcement way as Mozart before shifting into C major for most of the composition).

Subject: RE: Songs in minor key that aren't sad?
From: GUEST,Choirmistress
Date: 01 Dec 14 - 03:07 PM

Hava Nagila.

Minor key, yet the meaning of the first two words is: "Let's rejoice!"

There have, until the past three or so decades, been more minor-key Jewish songs (whether Hebrew, Yiddish, or otherwise) than major-key.

Until this thread started me thinking about it, I always thought of Miserlou as minor key, and I was shaking my head "No!" as I was reading some of the posts.

The thing is, it SOUNDS minor -- until you think the very last chord in your mind's ear:

Ab -- -- G Ab / B -- -- G B / C   -- -- -- / --
And that last C definitely has E and G as harmonics.

Regards,

Choirmistress

Subject: RE: Songs in minor key that aren't sad?
From: Thompson
Date: 01 Dec 14 - 03:39 AM

Samhradh, samhradh, bainne na gamhna…

Subject: RE: Songs in minor key that aren't sad?
From: Cool Beans
Date: 30 Nov 14 - 11:45 AM

Who Stole the Kishka?

Subject: RE: Songs in minor key that aren't sad?
From: Mr Red
Date: 30 Nov 14 - 06:31 AM

At the risk of evoking (good word for the thread) a deluge from the knowledgeable:

I have seen treaties on why a particular key is sadder or melancholic comapared to (say) C (major). The true-temper scales (aka piano notes) are cited because the octave is 8 notes compromised as a subset of what (on say a guitar) would be 12 notes spaced (as a frequency) consequetively by the twelfth root of 2.

But then I is a drummer and wud not no abart such fings. But as an Electronic Engineer..................

Subject: RE: Songs in minor key that aren't sad?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Nov 14 - 12:35 PM

Why do Minor Chords Sound Sad?

The Theory of Musical Equilibration states that in contrast to previous hypotheses, music does not directly describe emotions: instead, it evokes processes of will which the listener identifies with.

A major chord is something we generally identify with the message, "I want to!" The experience of listening to a minor chord can be compared to the message conveyed when someone says, "No more." If someone were to say the words "no more" slowly and quietly, they would create the impression of being sad, whereas if they were to scream it quickly and loudly, they would be come across as furious. This distinction also applies for the emotional character of a minor chord: if a minor harmony is repeated faster and at greater volume, its sad nature appears to have suddenly turned into fury.

The Theory of Musical Equilibration applies this principle as it constructs a system which outlines and explains the emotional nature of musical harmonies. For more information you can google Theory of Musical Equilibration.

Bernd Willimek

Subject: RE: Songs in minor key that aren't sad?
From: PHJim
Date: 08 Oct 14 - 01:40 PM

Always a good idea GUEST,J S Bach.
I posted for a while as "GUEST,Jim", till I realised that there were other "GUEST,Jim"s posting and, not wanting to either take credit or blame for the other GUEST,Jim's posts, I decided to join.
Just posting as GUEST, can't help but get confusing, since anyone who doesn't pick a consistent name, at least for a given thread, will become confused with others who do the same.

Subject: RE: Songs in minor key that aren't sad?
From: GUEST,J S Bach
Date: 08 Oct 14 - 10:05 AM

A name, to distinguish myself from the other guest(s) who made a couple of recent posts (I originally thought I was going to make just the one post, adding minor key calypsos and Misirlou), and also to make use of my new-found knowledge that musicians can sign things any way they want.

I nearly always use at least some of the relative minor chords in a song that I think of as being in a major key. In my own pidgin version of music theory, I've come to think of a minor key as simply one that doesn't use two of the three major chords of the key, so that it's a kind of sub-set of the major key.

Of course, that was before I heard about the minor and major third, which I guess means that a minor key uses a different set of notes than a major key, if I understand that correctly. Unless the person who writes the score decides not to use those different notes, as I gather from the more recent posts. Busy, busy, busy.

Subject: RE: Songs in minor key that aren't sad?
From: PHJim
Date: 08 Oct 14 - 07:08 AM

GUEST, I'd think that Little Sadie would fall into the "sad lyrics, happy tune" category. It's also a minor tune.

Subject: RE: Songs in minor key that aren't sad?
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Oct 14 - 07:05 AM

Reading over the thread, I see that a sog can have sad words, but when played instrumentally, sounds quite cheerful. It can probably have a sad sounding tune, but the message of the lyrics can be quite up-lifting.

Which one are we talking about here?

Subject: RE: Songs in minor key that aren't sad?
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Oct 14 - 07:01 AM

Is not the final chord of the song usually an indication of the key. If a song ends on a GMa chord, it's usually in the key of GMa. If it ends on a Gmi chord it will usually be I the key of Gmi.

I've just had it pointed out that Four Strong Winds ends on the dominant seventh of the key it's played in.

Subject: RE: Songs in minor key that aren't sad?
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 08 Oct 14 - 05:47 AM

As you've indicated, andrew, Music tends to be notated in a way that is useful for the performers, and that is not necessarily the most useful for analysis. Also, the conventions of
performance often add to that which is actually written.

It is my understanding that the tierce de picardie was often not notated, and used at the discretion of the performers--as I mentioned above--following that line of thought, the piece could easily be in e minor, with the sharped note being an embellishment that was once a convention of performance, and was later notated.

Subject: RE: Songs in minor key that aren't sad?
From: Jason Xion Wang
Date: 08 Oct 14 - 01:17 AM

I think "Glassical Gas" by Mason Williams is not a sad tune - but I'm not sure since it's instrumental... Did it use "Tierce de Picardie"?

Subject: RE: Songs in minor key that aren't sad?
From: andrew e
Date: 08 Oct 14 - 01:01 AM

I was wondering what others made of that little anthem.
I don't think you can really say if it's major or minor, it's a bit of both, and also you can't really say what key it is in. Starts on an E major chord and moves around, ends on E major.
I think the F# in the key signature could easily not be there, and when I notated this for a choir I had no key signature. It made more sense for reading.
I've seen music from this era notated with one flat, which is definitely in G minor [2 flats].
There's some anthems by Thomas Tomkins which also move all over the place, so one can't really say what key they are in.
Coming back to the original question, Happy Together by the Turtles starts in a minor key, moves to major for the chorus, and finishes in the minor key, ending though on a major chord for the last note.

Subject: RE: Songs in minor key that aren't sad?
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Oct 14 - 10:53 PM

Very interesting, Stim. Or, as a Bokononist would say, "Busy, busy, busy!" I think that if I were to spend the rest of my life doing nothing but studying music theory I would end up where I am now, i.e. knowing very little about it.

I wonder if Andrew asked about the key of that hymn so he would know what chords to play on the guitar when accompanying it. If so, would knowing that it's in E minor help toward that goal? I don't believe the melody would work with the chords I normally associate with that key. Can he use the chords formed by the 4 voices as a clue?

Subject: RE: Songs in minor key that aren't sad?
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 07 Oct 14 - 06:46 PM

Although I enjoy this sort of music, I haven't ever performed it, and have only "studied" bits that come up as examples in composition texts. I can tell you the key that it is written in, and that it ends on with a major chord, even though it is written in a minor key, and I can, as you have, count the instance of the accidental. Those are superficialities.

Why it is there is a different question, and requires reflection on the motion of the piece, a bit of understanding of the musical conventions of the genre, and a certain amount of speculation.

There are some who maintain, for instance, that there was a tendency to sharp a note in order to create a major rather than minor harmony because using the intonation of the time, the major sounded better. Some will point our that the note may be a product of voice leading and would argue that it is foreground detail and the focus should be on the underlying root progression syntax(!)

I am slightly embarrassed to admit that I know what that means, at least sort of, but that kind of discussion is above my pay grade--

Subject: RE: Songs in minor key that aren't sad?
From: GUEST,Pete Kiddle
Date: 07 Oct 14 - 03:48 AM

My daughter goes spare when I sing Bird in the Bush, but the minor tune is so achingly beautiful that I can't imagine going major on it.
Maybe we need to lose the minor/sad major/happy strait jacket and see the song and tune as a glorious team that helps get the emotional content across, as well as the story.

Subject: RE: Songs in minor key that aren't sad?
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Oct 14 - 01:10 AM

Tierce de Picardie! Good to know. I use that in a few songs, but I never knew what to call it. The only current one I can think of is "Una Rosa de Francia." And the Beatles' "And I Love Her," which I haven't sung since about 1970.

But in the Mudd piece, I think I see 12 instances of an E major chord, not just at the ends of phrases: Let... mer-ci... O... prayers... that... -tain... -tain their pe-... -ons... ask... thee... Lord... -men. And only 3 instances of an Em chord: to/such/make... make/such/as... through Je-sus. Am I reading that right? It's hard for me to read dots, especially on the bass clef.

Subject: RE: Songs in minor key that aren't sad?
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 06 Oct 14 - 08:58 PM

As I may have mentioned above, music from different places and times can follow different sets of rules.

This particular piece is roughly from the Tudor period, before classical music theory had evolved, and doesn't always follow the "classical" rules.

The G#, rather than defining the piece as being in E major, indicates a "Tierce de Picardie"
which is a major chord that occurs at the end of a minor or modal phrase, where you'd expect it to resolve to a minor triad.

Subject: RE: Songs in minor key that aren't sad?
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Oct 14 - 10:34 AM

Stim: Great find! That St Anthony site will be a tremendous help for me. Thank you.

What I know about music theory is written on a 3x5 card that I carry around with me. It helps me a lot in figuring out the chords for a song. It shows the patterns I've noticed of what chords often go together. Each line on the card has chords I often find in the same song. There's also something important about the order of the chords on each line, but I don't know how to say what that is. The chords in parentheses are for blues only. I add and alter a lot of individual notes in the chords, which I guess makes other chords, but I don't know the names of those other chords.
A F#m D Bm (B) E C#m A
C Am F Dm (D) G Em C
D Bm G Em (E) A F#m D
E C#m A F#m (F#) B G#m E
F Dm Bb Gm (G) C Am F
G Em C Am (A) D Bm G

Andrew E: This page has a score that looks similar to the one in the video, and the download page says it's in E minor. Funny, it looks like the final chord formed by the voices is an E major. But what do I know about it.

Subject: RE: Songs in minor key that aren't sad?
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 06 Oct 14 - 10:04 AM

By the way, GUEST/Misirlou--even though you say that you don't know anything about music theory, the fact that you can work out chords to some fairly unusual melodies shows that you have a good, practical working understanding of music theory.You just don't know the names for things.

The names are very helpful when you're communicating with others, but, people can learn the names without understanding the underlying process. Worse, people can teach the names without really explaining the underlying process, and often do.

Subject: RE: Songs in minor key that aren't sad?
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 06 Oct 14 - 09:55 AM

Was that question for me? If it is, I looked at the key signature, there is one sharp, and looked at the last note which an e. The convention is that this would nominally be E minor.
Does that give you what you want?

Subject: RE: Songs in minor key that aren't sad?
From: andrew e
Date: 06 Oct 14 - 02:38 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcSEi2VpgiQ

Is this major or minor, and what key is it in?

Subject: RE: Songs in minor key that aren't sad?
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 06 Oct 14 - 01:12 AM

Sorry, I messed up the link. Check this one. There is a lot of explanation, including names and interval structure of the eight modes. If you look under "Vespers", you'll find an option to download music, with notation, and a little pull-down that lets you choose Western or Byzantine notation. If you choose the Western, you'll get music that has chords marked above the staff, which, I think, is what you're looking for.

St. Anthony's Monastery.org

I pulled this from the home page. It may help you to understand why you're having a bit
of trouble.

"Strictly speaking, it is incorrect to refer to the eight divisions of the Byzantine octoechos as "scales." While some of their musical gestures are reminiscent of those in modern Western scales, the Eastern melodies, like their counterparts in the old Latin musical repertories, behave in ways entirely alien to contemporary scale-based tunes. In order to differentiate between the two, chants are said to belong to one of the eight "modes."

Subject: RE: Songs in minor key that aren't sad?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Oct 14 - 08:18 PM

I once took a course in Byzantine chant -- all day every day for a week. But I didn't learn a thing. It was all theory. We hardly sang at all. And the theory was explained in terms of western musical theory.

I was so surprised. For one thing, they hadn't mentioned any pre-requisites for the course. And it seems unlikely that the Byzantines learned to chant that way. I thought we were going to learn by listening and practicing.

In the years since then I've learned well enough on my own how to do that kind of chanting. I'm just surprised that I can't always find chords to accompany it. I realize that they didn't know about chords back then, but I would have thought that we who do know about chords could add them in. And in fact I was able to do it with the other 4 tones.

Subject: RE: Songs in minor key that aren't sad?
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 05 Oct 14 - 06:52 PM

Those would be written in Byzantine modes--they use a whole different set of musical rules that those in the major/minor classic theory. In some of the music, the pitches assigned to notes don't even correspond to the ones we use.

This site has way more than you need to know.St. Anthony's Monastery