USA, Black Lives Lost in Police Actions

Subject: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: wysiwyg
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 04:01 PM

Today the grand jury declined to indict the white cop who shot John Crawford III in Beavercreek, Ohio's WalMart around the same week Michael Brown was gunned down in Missouri. Crawford was on his cell phone with his wife who had just given birth to their 2nd child when shots were fired. His father was with her seeing his grandbabies and they heard his last gasps together.

Tears. Lots of them. Some inside info later.... I'm in the town where that indictment failed to be brought.

~S~

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 04:05 PM

:(:( Thanks for informing us...

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Lighter
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 04:29 PM

Your point is what?

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 04:34 PM

That another unarmed black man was shot by a cop. Perhaps you think this is a trivial matter, Lighter?

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 07:29 PM

Hey, c'mon - the U.S.of A. - "greatest country in the world" - can't possibly have a racist component, can it???

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: michaelr
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 09:02 PM

The fuckers are out of control. With all the national attention the Ferguson murder and its aftermath received, you'd think they'd be a bit more circumspect, at least for a little while.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: wysiwyg
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 09:13 PM

Here's where the profiling started:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/07/ohio-black-man-killed-by-police-walmart-doubts-cast-witnesss-account

Folkies used to protest this sh#t, not shoot the messenger.

Remember?

Black life matters. That's the point.

~S~

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 11:38 PM

I suspect there are some archetypes to expose in this situation. Paging Dr. Jung.

Not all cops are bad, but the bad ones make it really horrid for everyone else. Ego, power, insecurity, maintaining control, thinking they can get away with it.

SRS

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 25 Sep 14 - 03:06 AM

Trouble is, Stilly, you can't tell which are which. They won't kick out the rotten apples, which taints even the good ones, because it's a case of us-and-them. We have the same problem in the UK, but we are firing them: for example, the Police Commissioner for South Yorkshire, for past misdemeanours covering up massive child abuse.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Sep 14 - 03:56 AM

I am sure that US police-caused deaths are disproportionately of Afrikan-Americans and other BMEs. But a major driver is the media-promoted "Robocop" mentality that real men dominate and bully others (for example Danielle Watts), shoot first and shoot to kill.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 25 Sep 14 - 04:06 AM

Here's the link Wysiwyg gives above.
It seems to raise more questions than it answers.
The witness (Ritchie) seems to have seen the video CCTV footage & tailored his testimony accordingly, and this is "wrong".
The victim's father also seems to have watched the footage, but there is no suggestion that this is "wrong".
Crawford's father and attorneys said that the footage showed the 22-year-old walking from one aisle to the next with the BB rifle at his side and in his left hand, pointed at the floor except for one notable movement. Why remove it from the original aisle? surely you can inspect it in situ and replace it on the shelf, either to leave it, or to pick one which is still boxed if you want to make a purchase.

I have to wonder what would have happened if it had been a white man who'd been in this position:
1, He wouldn't have been shot because the police are racist & don't shoot white men?
2, He would have responded to the police challenge (which they claim they made) and put the gun down?
3, He would have been shot, but there would have been no media frenzy because "White man shot by cop" is not newsworthy?

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Jack Campin
Date: 25 Sep 14 - 06:48 AM

Isn't racist killing a federal crime?

If not why not?

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Sep 14 - 07:42 AM

Blacks shot by cops are the lynchings of today in the USA. My two best black friends HAVE BOTH both shot, one fatally.

I once had a boss that was cut from the DC police department only after killing 3 black youths. His recounting of the fatal shooting incidents were demeaning and degrading to his victims. He laughed at the funny sounds two of the youths made when then were shoot while hiding under an automobile.

The ex cop cleverly worded his account of the killings, all except one time...

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: GUEST,#
Date: 25 Sep 14 - 07:47 AM

"Isn't racist killing a federal crime?"

Crimes of most types are a State responsibility to prosecute. The races of the people involved are often coincidental to the fact of the crime itself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_crime_laws_in_the_United_States

That link deals with hate crimes.

http://www.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_difference_between_a_federal_and_a_state_crime

An easier read than many sites on the net.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 25 Sep 14 - 09:35 AM

Civil Rights and hate crimes come under federal jurisdiction, and I think it isn't just prosecutors deciding - grand juries are involved in this. Determining the type of crime (along a sliding scale from simple self-defense up to hate crime) for a lot of people makes prosecuting these shootings difficult.

SRS

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Jack Campin
Date: 25 Sep 14 - 10:10 AM

So it looks like the Feds would have the law on their side if they had the guts to go after killers like this.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: GUEST,#
Date: 25 Sep 14 - 11:03 AM

Hate crimes and what that means in terms of law and jurisdiction

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/investigate/civilrights/hate_crimes/overview

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 25 Sep 14 - 12:21 PM

In the UK, each and every police shooting is automatically investigated by the Federal-level IPCC, which is pretty close to a Grand Jury. There have been doubts about its neutrality (I worked for someone who went on to head it, and a less objective person I would find hard to imagine), but these days they have become more objective, albeit still impossibly lethargic.
The robocop mentality is caused by two vectors, Procedure and incompetence. This reduces the Police to the kind of befehl-ist-befehl (Orders is Orders) mentality which caused no end of trouble in WWII, the military have long outgrown it by requiring their people to know the Law and apply it.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: pdq
Date: 25 Sep 14 - 12:31 PM

...news article about this incident:


"BEAVERCREEK, Ohio - The gun held by a 22-year-old man who was shot dead Tuesday night at a southwest Ohio Walmart was just a realistic-looking toy, a law enforcement source told CBS affiliate WHIO.

Police in the Dayton suburb of Beavercreek fatally shot John Crawford for allegedly waving what appeared to be a rifle at customers in the store. The station reports the "weapon" may only have been some type of BB or pellet gun that Crawford got and opened in the Walmart.

April and Ronald Ritchie, of Riverside, told WHIO that they were in the hardware department Tuesday around 8:20 p.m. when they saw a man walking the aisles carrying what they thought was a real gun, pointing it toward the sky. The couple called 911.

The couple said they followed Crawford at a safe distance. "Anytime I saw people walking his way, I would get their attention," April Ritchie said. She said the man was cradling a cellphone between his left ear and shoulder while he messed with the rifle.

"He just kept messing with it and I heard a clicking," April Ritchie said.

Ronald Ritchie said Crawford "was just waving [the gun] at children and people...I couldn't hear anything that he was saying. I'm thinking that he is either going to rob the place or he's there to shoot somebody.

"He didn't really want to be looked at and when people did look at him, he was pointing the gun at them. He was pointing at people. Children walking by," Ronald Ritchie said.

The station reports that police arrived and told Crawford to put the weapon down. The Ritchies said two shots were fired, knocking the suspect backward. When Crawford reportedly tried to get up, he was tackled by an officer who then handcuffed him and turned him on his back.

The Montgomery County coroner's office confirmed that Crawford died at the hospital as a result of the gunshots fired by police.

According to WHIO, 37-year-old Angela D. Williams was at the store at the time and collapsed while running away from the situation. She was taken to the hospital and pronounced dead. The coroner's office reported that Williams had a medical condition which was the cause of her death. The woman's coworkers told the station she was to be married on Saturday"

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: GUEST,hg
Date: 25 Sep 14 - 12:35 PM

Our political approach to guns and the racism which the white male community aims on the president has unfortunately contributed greatly to police willingness to shoot black men when no reason exists. This reflects the stance of the NRA on guns, the Tea Party's racist invective towrds the president, and the militrization of the police wiith no community control over those whomare supposed to protect and serve. A racist militaristic white male gun culture is the problem.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Sep 14 - 01:10 PM

Thanks for the summary, pdq. I found the same in reports I read.

If I had been the cop and the man did not drop the gun, I would have fired too.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Sep 14 - 01:15 PM

Of course you would, Q - and you'd have been just as wrong as the cop was.

And PeeDee- what point, exactly, are you trying to make with this particular article (one of many, all differing in particulars) and the "eyewitness testimony" of the Ritchies.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Sep 14 - 01:25 PM

To protect the public, there is no alternative.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Sep 14 - 01:35 PM

You, bet, Q - protect the public from a man with an unloaded BB gun. Probably should pin a medal on both you & the murdering SOB. Or maube the Nathan Bedford Forrest Achievement Award.

Nothing scares white folks in the U.S. (and Canada?) as shitless as 'Niggas With Guns'.

That's the "post-racial society" we're liing in. Right back to the last quarter of the 19th century.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Sep 14 - 01:41 PM

Would have shot the man with the weapon (you walk up and identify the presumed weapon!), white, black or polka-dot.

Nothing scares folks like a shithead waving a gun.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Jack Campin
Date: 25 Sep 14 - 02:21 PM

I take it Q wants it to be open season on anybody in Ohio walking around with a gun (or toy version thereof)?

Could be fun given their open carry law. No shortage of targets. Just go to any Walmart and wait for somebody to buy one off the shelves.

Going beyond the US situation, this article is pretty good:

Yiannis Baboulias of Al Jazeera on Robocop policing

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Sep 14 - 02:30 PM

And here is another: -

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/09/25/1332260/-Dash-Cam-video-of-South-Carolina-Trooper-Sean-Groubert-shooting-Levar-Jones-an-unarmed-black-man?detail=email

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Sep 14 - 02:53 PM

Nothing scares folks like a shithead waving a gun.

No, Q - nothing scares folks like persons like yourself condoning an unnecessary murder and trying to parley it into a positive good.

Come to think of it, that was the tack of the slave-holders of the Southern U.S. - claiming SLAVERY as a positive good.......

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Sep 14 - 03:50 PM

Oh, yes-

Down in de cornfield
hear dat mournful sound
All de darkies am a'weeping
Massa's in de cold, cold ground.

Which has bugger-all to do with the police acting in the public interest.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Mrrzy
Date: 25 Sep 14 - 05:08 PM

Another man done gone (lyrics in the trad)

And I can't believe the lyrics to There's Anger in the Land, with the phrase There's been another lynchin', aren't in the trad, I shall Add them forthwith and then come back and make the blicky.

Odd - the only lyrics I can find online are PP&M and skip the verse with the line about lynching! O horror of clean internet! Luckily I remember the verse!

Sorry for the thread creep.

I was thinking Has nothing changed? but something has; unfortunately it doesn't seem to be the total amount of racism running around.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Sep 14 - 05:20 PM

Which has bugger-all to do with the police acting in the public interest.

'Cept that "the police acting in the public interest" has bugger-all to do with the case in point.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: wysiwyg
Date: 25 Sep 14 - 05:50 PM

Witnesses saw thaf he was so focused on his fone call that he had no idea he was being told to drop a gun-- BECAUSE HE WASN'T HOLDING A GUN. As he fell he was screaming, "It's not real!" That was when he realized police meant HIM. He was not pointingbit at anyone when the officer started with a kill shot instead of a disabling shot. Their 911 info was wrong and Ritchie has already admitted this and changed his story-- he's wherecthe profiling started.

This neck of the woods is both Old South and New South. It was and is hotly-contested Klan and Abolition/Equality territory. Right under the surface, within an economically-challenged are whose major employers have closed or moved right vdfore tge housibg bubble burst. So-- it can get tense, here, apparently fatally and quicker than the speed of thought.

~S~

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Mrrzy
Date: 25 Sep 14 - 06:51 PM

It is appalling indeed.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Sep 14 - 06:52 PM

Old South - New South ..... The "New South" being the Klan in business suits instead of hoods.

Rock on.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Sep 14 - 08:34 PM

Beavercreek is an affluent (median family income about $89,000) suburb of Dayton, Ohio. The Black population is small, about 2.5 percent. Its demographics are far removed from Ferguson.
Money Magazine rated it among the 100 best places to live in the U. S.

It is typical of middle class America, far removed from areas with Klan influence.
The big source of jobs is Wright-Patterson.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Jack Campin
Date: 25 Sep 14 - 09:01 PM

Googling "kkk dayton ohio" immediately contradicts that.

Ohio had a larger number of KKK members than any other state. And not all Klan activity in Ohio was in the distant past.

Try a Google image search for "kkk dayton ohio photo" too. Like this:

http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/736x/96/65/14/966514736a9128a4fc6e9286cde573be.jpg

The recent stuff is far too repulsive for me to want to provide links to it, but it's easy to find.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 10:51 AM

Ah jeez, Q - another ooops. Klan's apparently alive and well.

Money Magazine rated it among the 100 best places to live in the U. S.

Did Money Magazine query any Black folks in making that derermination, Q?

Oh and by the way - in light of the subject of this thread, posting a Black-Face Minstrel Song is in pretty poor taste. Do do you see yourself as Mr. Bones, or Mr. Interlocutor?

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 02:06 PM

Trying to project 1920s KKK membership into present day Ohio, as Mr. Campin attempts, is nonsense.

Following WW1, Klan membership was at an all-time high in the U. S. and Canada, because of the backlash against immigration policies allowing southern European and Irish Catholics and the extension of rights to the Asian community. Some Protestant groups not associated with the Klan and its ilk attacked the easy access of Irish Catholics and Jews to the U. S. and Canada.

Canada had large Klan memberships in the western cities in the 1920s.
I have a photo taken in a large assembly hall in Calgary of attendance at a KKK rally. In Canada, many business men, as well as tradespeople, were Klan members at the time.
By 1928, the Klan had members in 100 communities in Saskatchewan (historians estimate 25000-50000 members. Their main target in western Canada was the Catholic immigrant, and to some extent Catholics from Quebec.

Last year, a Klan in North Carolina distributed flyers in Hillsboro, Ohio (near Cincinnati in the far south) apparently with no effect). This is the only current report of activity in Dayton that I found.

In the 1920s, the Klan made attacks on the University of Dayton, regarded by them as a center of "Catholic subversion."

I doubt if there are more than a handful of KKK members in the Dayton area.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Mrrzy
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 02:15 PM

Dayton, Ohio is also home to LexisNexis, you'd think all them lawyers would want a piece of this...

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 02:20 PM

Uh Hunh. "apparently" & similar weasel words. And you apparently missed the recent incidents thet Mr. Casmpin referred to.

You DOUBT it - but can you PROVE it? Have you any evidence to back this silly claim up other than an internet search?

Apparently not.

(PS: Dayton isn't in Alberta or Saskatchewan.)

Why not just post some more "Darkey" songs to "entertain" us?

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 02:23 PM

And Q, since you're incapable of finding it yourself, here's some factual matter:

http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/hate-map#s=OH

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 02:24 PM

Poor sentence- I was looking for current reports of the Klan in Dayton, but the only report I found was the one from Hillsboro, OH.

Back to the subject, the finding of the grand jury was that the police acted within the limits of the Police Act, seeing a perceived threat. The Police Chief and the Mayor of Beavercreek have asked the Federal Justice Department to review their actions.
No action has been taken so far by the Justice Department.

Walmart has been asked to not allow customers to handle air rifles without a salesperson being in attendance, and all guns should be behind the counter.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 03:17 PM

I was looking for current reports of the Klan in Dayton, but the only report I found was the one from Hillsboro, OH.

Look harder.

Walmart has been asked to not allow customers to handle air rifles without a salesperson being in attendance

So aside from the Police over-reacting, ya think maybe MalWart might also be partly responsible for this travesty of justice, Q?

No action has been taken so far by the Justice Department.

Yet. And since the TeaPublicans have forced Holder out with a tsunami of BS, it may not take any. But it should.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 27 Sep 14 - 12:09 PM

Oh??..We're deleting threads that don't pander to the =so-called' liberal spins, again....figures!!

Such open minds!

GfS

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 27 Sep 14 - 12:14 PM

Today the grand jury declined to indict the white cop who shot John Crawford III in Beavercreek, Ohio's WalMart around the same week Michael Brown was gunned down in Missouri. Crawford was on his cell phone with his wife who had just given birth to their 2nd child when shots were fired.

The topic is the frequent occurrence of American police officers shooting unarmed young black men.

Holder was one of the longest-serving U.S. Attorney Generals - perhaps the longest, I haven't looked it up but I think I heard that factoid this week. It is a common occurrence for the gradual departure of those in the president's cabinet and inner circle to leave office before the end of the second term. It is a political decision probably months in the planning. But I'm sure the GOP/Teaparty would love to claim credit for something they had nothing to do with if they think they can spin it during the upcoming elections.

The failure to indict is distressing, and signals that it is still open season on young black men.

SRS

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 27 Sep 14 - 12:56 PM

SRS: "The failure to indict is distressing, and signals that it is still open season on young black men."

Hogwash!

GfS

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Sep 14 - 01:09 PM

You mean "whitewash", dontcha, GeistInsanity?

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 27 Sep 14 - 01:10 PM

SRS: "The failure to indict is distressing, and signals that it is still open season on young black men."

But they let this one   have a chance....but later caught up with him...those unfair, biased cops!...or ..and this one was shot just because he was black!!!..Ya' think??

Racism isn't just a one way street.....only to some!

GfS

P.S. Dearest moderator, who keeps deleting my posts, why do you NOT want people to look at both sides of an issue, and ONLY the side YOU PREFER??..Do you think all Mudcat readers are stupid???...or are you insisting that they should be??

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 27 Sep 14 - 02:03 PM

Guest from Sanity, your predatory posts at Mudcat are designed to disrupt discussions you don't like and to turn the attention to yourself. Get over yourself and go find something better to do.

SRS

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 27 Sep 14 - 02:06 PM

Walmart Security video clearly shows the youth with a rifle in his hands just before he was shot by police.
How would one tell without close inspection what kind of gun it was?
www.wksu.org/news/story/40578

I may be in the minority, but it seems to me that the only option is to shoot if the weapon is not dropped immediately.
What other options are there when the public is under possible threat?

Canada prohibits the open display of air rifles, BB-guns; both dangerous to the public.

The incident in Walmart could not happen in a Walmart in Canada where the items must be behind the counter and superintended.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 27 Sep 14 - 03:15 PM

SRS: "Guest from Sanity, your predatory posts at Mudcat are designed to disrupt discussions you don't like and to turn the attention to yourself."

Nice try...but the thread title is, "Another Black Man Shot by Cop". My posts are NOT a diversion....making EVERYTHING racist, about another shooting, IS!! The topic is not about picking and choosing, 'discussions you don't like'...it's about presenting all sides, and calling attention to misrepresentation about false, selective spins...

GfS

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 27 Sep 14 - 03:27 PM

You don't present sides, you dredge up what you think are hot button side topics that can derail a discussion. And it ends up being about you. Go make some of your muzak, leave the threads alone for a while. There you go, on your way now.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Sep 14 - 05:01 PM

What other options are there when the public is under possible threat?

The public was not under any sort of threat. This is just another knee-jerk reation to "niggaz with guns" - God Bless Amerika.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 27 Sep 14 - 05:12 PM

Anyway, the guns thread makes it fairly rational to argue that the racial distinction might well be done away with: most rational people are afraid of people of any colour or function waving guns. As that is most often Americans, perhaps they should show more sympathies with other minority groups (the US having less than 5% of the world population).

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 27 Sep 14 - 06:25 PM

SRS: "You don't present sides...."

Sides???
There are no 'sides'...only stupid decisions that people make by shooting each other OR doing things that might get you, or someone else, shot....white? black?..makes no difference..stupid is stupid...SENSATIONALIZING IT, for political agendas ranks right up there with more stupid....SENSATIONALIZING IT, and claiming 'sides', only fosters more polarizing animosity.....

...and you are defending, and/or encouraging THAT!!??

Maybe YOU should run along, and re-think how you've been manipulated into more manipulations, of other people!

Warmly,

GfS

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Sep 14 - 06:29 PM

the guns thread makes it fairly rational to argue that the racial distinction might well be done away with

Rational? Bullshit. You need to take a look at the statistics before making a fool of yourself.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 27 Sep 14 - 08:15 PM

white? black?..makes no difference..stupid is stupid...

Yes, it makes a difference. A big difference. But you want to grind whatever ax will upset the most people.

Strange fruit. Now it is guns, not the noose.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 28 Sep 14 - 01:19 AM

SRS: "Yes, it makes a difference. A big difference...."

And, just what is that difference?...Another dead body is another dead body..and that person was probably valued and loved by at least 'someone'...what does skin color have to do with it??

Fair question.

GfS

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 28 Sep 14 - 10:53 AM

You're changing the topic. Everyone should ignore the posts from Guest from Sanity. Read past anything he posts and keep up with the original topic.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 28 Sep 14 - 11:08 AM

There is a lot of prevarication and obfuscation when it comes to the power play that mostly-white police officers are exerting when they shoot, beat, or otherwise abuse minority subjects.

Right-Wing Media Push "Black-On-Black" Crime Canard To Deflect From Ferguson Police Shooting

Right-wing media emphasized the supposed prevalence of "black-on-black" violence in response to the shooting death of unarmed black teen Michael Brown by a police officer in Ferguson, Missouri. But such emphasis takes the crime statistics out of context in order to hype the racial aspect.

Scroll to the bottom of the collection of citations and you'll find this blockquote:

Nearly two times a week in the United States, a white police officer killed a black person during a seven-year period ending in 2012, according to the most recent accounts of justifiable homicide reported to the FBI.

On average, there were 96 such incidents among at least 400 police killings each year that were reported to the FBI by local police. The numbers appear to show that the shooting of a black teenager in Ferguson, Mo., last Saturday was not an isolated event in American policing.

The reports show that 18% of the blacks killed during those seven years were under age 21, compared to 8.7% of whites. [USA Today, 8/15/14]

Those who don't want their motives examined, who are bigots, practice a form of social bigotry by trying to change the subject and suggest it is part of a different issue. Thus removing the gaze from the white police officers and instead blaming the victims.

SRS

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 28 Sep 14 - 11:27 AM

There is another principle in play, SRS. In Europe, we've made steps in establishing that power needs to justify itself, that the Law cannot forever favour the big guns. If you hold authority and the power that accompanies it, then you must be accountable for its use, and it is utterly insufficient to use it to hush up its abuse.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Sep 14 - 12:53 PM

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/09/29/1333114/-Dear-White-Folks-Please-Stop-Being-So-Surprised-When-White-Cops-Shoot-Unarmed-Black-People?detail=email

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Oct 14 - 12:31 AM

So if a cop kills three innocent people but Internal affairs finds that he is not to be charged or handed over to a grand jury,
what happens if additional evidence, such as his confession to me. Could he be charged with murder 20 years later?

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: meself
Date: 01 Oct 14 - 12:41 AM

No Statute of Limitations on murder ....

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 01 Oct 14 - 03:55 AM

I don't know how this quote helps the argument
Scroll to the bottom of the collection of citations and you'll find this blockquote:

Nearly two times a week in the United States, a white police officer killed a black person during a seven-year period ending in 2012, according to the most recent accounts of justifiable homicide reported to the FBI.

On average, there were 96 such incidents among at least 400 police killings each year that were reported to the FBI by local police. The numbers appear to show that the shooting of a black teenager in Ferguson, Mo., last Saturday was not an isolated event in American policing.
"96 incidents out of at least 400 killings" seems to show that more than 75% of victims of police killings were white. I don't know what percentage of the US population is "black", but without that sort of information the statistics quoted are pointless.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Oct 14 - 04:27 AM

See my simultaneous post on the "Gun Law" thread, on the irony of these two threads running so tenaciously side-by-side.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: wysiwyg
Date: 01 Oct 14 - 04:52 AM

Nigel, another study in 2012 put it as 1 Black killed by police every 28 hours.

The number of Blacks makes it clear that even the "milder" statistic you cited reflects a police mindset disproportionately targeting them.

~S~

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Oct 14 - 08:54 AM

The fastest percentage growth is among multiracial Americans, followed by Asians and Hispanics. Non-Hispanic whites make up 63 percent of the U.S.; Hispanics, 17 percent; blacks, 12.3 percent; Asians, 5 percent; and multiracial Americans, 2.4 percent.
Census: White majority in U.S. gone by 2043 - U.S. News
usnews.nbcnews.com/_.../18934111-census-white-majority-in-us-gone-by-...

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: GUEST,#
Date: 01 Oct 14 - 06:51 PM

"Could he be charged with murder 20 years later?"

Yes. There is no statute of limitations on murder.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: wysiwyg
Date: 13 Oct 14 - 09:51 AM

Why does the St. Louis PD keep changing their story about the killing of VonDerrit Myers?

http://thefreethoughtproject.com/st-louis-pd-changing-story-killing-vonderrit-myers/


RIJ VonDerritt Myers

~S~

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: wysiwyg
Date: 13 Oct 14 - 09:58 AM

"....the spokesperson for the St. Louis police union, Jeff Roorda, already chiming in on this case, was himself fired as a police officer for falsifying reports and has admitted that he is behind the fundraiser for Darren Wilson...." who is Mike Brown's l
killer.....

~S~

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Oct 14 - 12:19 PM

Methinks that the ubiquity of cell phones' recording ability has not yet become fully internalized in sufficient numbers of individual cops. Can you visualize the meetings and briefings in police departments these days? It would be interesting to be the proverbial fly on the wall.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Oct 14 - 12:25 PM

That, plus the ongoing unnecessary and idiotic militarization of U.S. police forces, providing them with full-auto assault weapons, armored personnel carriers and all kinds of hardwre that has no business being in the hands of civilian law enforcement.

My tax dollars at work.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 Oct 14 - 01:01 PM

Four Latino men have been shot by police in Salinas, California.
An investigation is being sought.

Unarmed white man, Dillon Taylor, shot to death in Salt Lake City, Utah in August. Washington Times and NY Times reports on protests.

Forty-four percent of men killed in the last 33 years have been white.
Huffington Post, Black Voices 10-10-2014.

In the last few years, blacks stand a 21 percent greater chance of being shot dead by police than whites. Huffington Post.

These figures need to be classified by type of offence, weapons involved, &c.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: wysiwyg
Date: 13 Oct 14 - 02:09 PM

Q, can't classify that way when cops can and often do lie about exactly those details-- that's why racial profiling is so dangerous.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Oct 14 - 12:51 AM

Shot while being black is todays lynching.

and another is shot and another is shot, another black shot by cop.

As I wrote earlier a DC cop I knew was not out until, like baseball, he had shot and killed 3 black kids "hiding under cars" in SE DC. He would say , you gotta hear the funny sound they make when shot in the head.

Without even an indictment, cops go free when and if the kids they shoot are black.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: wysiwyg
Date: 25 Nov 14 - 07:30 PM

RIP Tamir Rice, Cleveland, Ohio, age 12, 11/22/2014.

~S~

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Nov 14 - 07:53 PM

Armed with an air pistol.
Meanwhile, a report the body of someone else shot dead had been found late Tuesday night 300m from where Michael Brown died has magically disappeared from the web...

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Nov 14 - 08:11 PM

It appears you don't have to be a black man to be shot by the police in the States.

Of course it isn't just in the States it happens. But it's not quite so frequent here in England. I imagine if we gave the cops all guns it might be more likely to happen. And at the same time probably lead to more cops being killed in the course of duty. What you might call a lose-lose situation.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Nov 14 - 08:15 PM

This is what I was referring to:
Tamir Rice: US police kill boy, 12, carrying replica gun




Make another link

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 Nov 14 - 11:23 PM

An interesting read, for all those 'racists' out there....

Deaths of black men in the inner cities: These gun deaths don't make the headlines. The country doesn't come to a dead halt, wailing at the murder of innocents, demanding an end to gun violence. The NRA won't appear on TV to suggest putting armed guards in inner city schools. There is no public outcry. It is the astonishing number of black men killing other black men. This is a true gun crisis in inner cities across our country.

The "other" gun deaths we never hear about: young black males and homicide.

A few days ago, Chicago had its 500th homicide. Its' a sad testament to a world chained to poverty, lack of opportunities, joblessness and other societal factors.

Black men have the highest death rate to gun violence in this country. While the overall murder rate is declining, deaths due to gun violence among black males is on the rise. There is no national outcry, but there should be.

The Department of Justice figures from 1980 to 2008, showed that blacks were more likely to be victims as well as offenders. The same study shows that the highest rates were for victims were those in the age group 18-24 and 25-34. The study also showed that during those years, 93% of black victims were killed by black perpetrators. In all homicides from 1980-2008 for black and white, a gun was the weapon of choice.

Two of every 5 deaths for young black men are caused by homicide. In contrast, that rate is twice of Hispanic male deaths and 15 times the rate of white male homicides.

There is anger and rage boiling in inner cities. Factors such as higher incidences of inter-generational poverty, social disorder, gang strongholds, single-parent or no parent households, lack of jobs, alcoholism, drug abuse or child neglect are part of the entire scenario which breeds violence.

......................................................................

So, I don't think it matters if you're blue with orange polka-dots, a sure way to get your ass blown away is to reach into a cop car, punch the cop's mug, and try to get his gun from him!

Don't believe me??....Try it!

The 'outrage' over this being a white on black 'joy-shooting' is absolutely preposterous.

Nobody is bitching about the convenience store owner that got strong-armed, by Brown....I guess he get's a pass, 'cuz he's black...it's all excusable..after all, WE'RE LIBERALS!

GfS

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 03:42 AM

The fact that the victims of police violence in the States are particularly liable to be black is of course striking - but the thing that is in a way most horrifying to outsiders is the fact that so many of your police seem so casual about killing unarmed people, and that your legal system appears to accept it.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: wysiwyg
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 08:27 AM

RIP Eric Garner, July 17, 2014, Staten Island, New York, age 43.

~S~

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: IamNoMan
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 05:03 PM

"From: GUEST,Rahere - PM
Date: 28 Sep 14 - 11:27 AM

There is another principle in play, SRS. In Europe, we've made steps in establishing that power needs to justify itself, that the Law cannot forever favour the big guns. If you hold authority and the power that accompanies it, then you must be accountable for its use, and it is utterly insufficient to use it to hush up its abuse."

I agree with you. The Grand Jury in Ferguson determined that Criminal proceedings were not justified. We will see what happens when the Civil "Wrongful Death" aspects are raised. Both public opinion and hitting the "corporate power wielders" in the pocket book seem to have a way of changing how the authorities act and react in these cases. Ferguson, MO was incorporated in 1884 IIRC.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: wysiwyg
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 05:21 PM

Wilson's story to the Grand Jury is not the same story he gave the day of the shooting.

~S~

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Nov 14 - 05:48 AM

Clip of 12 year old Tamir Rice playing and being shot.

I don't imagine anyone is going to be tried for this killing either.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 28 Nov 14 - 04:01 AM

Boy...it seems he went right down just after the car pulled up...not much time to be telling him to 'Drop it"...

GfS

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: GUEST,Dáithí
Date: 28 Nov 14 - 08:28 AM

forgive my ignorance of the details, but how exactly does the Grrand Jury system operate in the US? Is it public knowlege for example as to who was on that jury - for it is they who decided no case to answer, surely?

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: GUEST,#
Date: 28 Nov 14 - 09:57 AM

http://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-law-basics/difference-between-grand-jury-and-trial-jury.html

Daithi, there is a good, concise explanation.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: wysiwyg
Date: 28 Nov 14 - 07:37 PM

Mr. Omar Edwards, age 25, May 2009, NY, NY.

"This is always a black cop's fear, that he'd be mistaken for a [suspect]," a source said.

Obit/description of incident:
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/OBITUARIES/2009-08/1249483405

~S~

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: wysiwyg
Date: 29 Nov 14 - 07:05 PM

Interesting detail about the Brown shooting:

Darren Wilson Was Fired From 'Corrupt' Department, Disbanded For 'Racial Discrimination'

~S~

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Nov 14 - 08:12 PM

Dude stopped and questioned by cop for "walking with his hands in his pockets" while black.

Police state

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 01 Dec 14 - 11:47 AM

"Walmart Security video clearly shows the youth with a rifle in his hands just before he was shot by police.
How would one tell without close inspection what kind of gun it was?
www.wksu.org/news/story/40578

I may be in the minority, but it seems to me that the only option is to shoot if the weapon is not dropped immediately.
What other options are there when the public is under possible threat?"

The Walmart video shows very clearly that he never once pointed that gun in the general direction of, let alone directly at, a single human being. In fact, for most of the eight minutes he carried that gun, he wasn't in direct line of sight of any human being. The only time he lifted the muzzle was to poke at products on the shelf about knee high.

The 911 caller flatly LIED, bigging himself up, and has admitted as much.

Also the Grand Jury didn't have the Walmart tape when they decided not to prosecute. If they had, they would know that the cops entered, shouted and fired all in the space of one second, hardly enough time for their victim to respond, even if he had the resctions of a Formula One driver.

It was an execution, plain and simple. They were wound up by the lies of the caller and went in shouting and shooting at the same time.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: GUEST,#
Date: 01 Dec 14 - 01:07 PM

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/h-a-goodman/three-reasons-why-black-m_b_6245962.html

Worth the read.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: wysiwyg
Date: 02 Dec 14 - 12:06 PM

Mr. Dontre Hamilton, April 30, 2014, Milwaukee, WI, age 31.

Hamilton was sleeping on the ground in the Milwaukee park where he was fatally shot.

FIRED OFFICER'S STORY VS AUTOPSY

A little glimpse of Mr. Hamilton (beyond his victimization) is in the comments at his
OBIT.

~S~

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: olddude
Date: 02 Dec 14 - 12:15 PM

I put some of the blame on Hollywood. Do you ever see a white drug dealer in the movies or a white gang member? Not often. Hollywood is the first to speak out about profiling yet they consistently do it.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: olddude
Date: 02 Dec 14 - 12:23 PM

Actors get paid millions of dollars to star in an action movie where they shoot black and hispanic guys then in real life cry profiling. Wh. Not refuse to be in such things. Likewise wwith gun control yet make movies they star in shooting minorities.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Dec 14 - 12:26 PM

All very good points, Dan. Good thing there's no systematic racism in the U.S, eh?

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: olddude
Date: 02 Dec 14 - 12:30 PM

We need a study also to find out how many of these cops were bullies in high school

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: olddude
Date: 02 Dec 14 - 12:35 PM

Here is a good example absolutely true. I was in Chicago over thanksgiving in swank hotel downtown. I was outside sneaking a smoke in the alley. A cop pulled in and stopped the black guy ten yards from me also having a cig. He did nothing wrong but got the 20 questions. Not me I guess I looked saintly or something else in play here

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: olddude
Date: 02 Dec 14 - 12:38 PM

Don't rat me out to my Mrs about the cig or else

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 02 Dec 14 - 04:44 PM

The shooting of Levar Jones was almost identical in nature.

The cop claims he approached him about a seat belt volation. The dash cam shows him coming up to Jones, who had just exited his vehicle, calling on him to produce his driving licence.

When Jones turned to the car to get it, the cop screamed "Get out of the car" and immediately fired three shots.

Jones came out of the car with a wallet in both hands and held it up to show the ID, and the cop fired again.

Off camera he could be heard yelling at the wounded Jones to turn over and put his hands behind his back. Then he came back into view picked up the wallet which Jones had dropped, examined it and threw it into the car. At no time did I hear him call for medical assistance.

He was quite correctly fired and prosecuted, Grand Jury and Supreme Court please note and do likewise.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: GUEST,sawzaw
Date: 02 Dec 14 - 06:28 PM

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/09/04/rochester-ny-officer-killed/15086621/

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Dec 14 - 07:42 PM

Police departments across the US are being militarized.

Blacks are being urged to violently protest court decisions.

Blacks are being set up for suppression and round up. By other blacks.

Fascism knows no skin color.

Don't fall for the Obama reverse racism sucker punch.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: wysiwyg
Date: 02 Dec 14 - 08:06 PM

What nice posts some of you wrote!

Don't fall for trolls in this thread. Please. Just assume they're being deleted.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Dec 14 - 08:36 PM

Indeed.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Dec 14 - 04:46 PM

A grand jury today cleared a white New York City police officer Wednesday in the videotaped chokehold death of an unarmed black man, Eric Garner, who had been stopped on suspicion of selling loose, untaxed cigarettes.

Another Lynching

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: olddude
Date: 03 Dec 14 - 05:53 PM

Oh I guess we have a new law its ok to kill for selling tax free injun cigs. Maybe the 2nd admendment isn't so bad after all about tyranny and such and rights to self defense against such.. Jefferson was right.
Ya know that vast majority of cops are really good people but the bad ones are really really bad

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Dec 14 - 06:15 PM

"Ya know that vast majority of cops are really good people"

I do indeed, Dan, but this is getting ridiculous. Starting to remind me of the 1890-1930 period down south when Black folks were regularly lynched and grand juries determined they died "at the hands of persons unknown" and even when the persons WERE known and arrested, juries refused to convict them.

"Post-Racial Country" my ass.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: olddude
Date: 03 Dec 14 - 06:44 PM

I just watched the video the man Did not resist arrest his hands were up and the cop put a death lock on him crushing his wind pipe. And the grand jury throws it out. JESUS GOD
Put that cop in a ring with me give me ten minutes alone. For fuck sake what have we become

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: olddude
Date: 03 Dec 14 - 06:57 PM

That man was murdered plain and simple that hold is not a restraint it is designed to kill. The mma fighter's use a variation like in judo that shuts off the blood stream. It will put you unconscious but that death lock can and will kill as we seen. He was murdered by the cops who never once ordered him down. Only when they grabbed him did he move and never once fought back or hit an officer he was murdered period

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Dec 14 - 06:58 PM

I'm afraid it's not a case of what we've BECOME, Dan, but rather a case of what we've always BEEN, and have pretended not to be.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: olddude
Date: 03 Dec 14 - 06:58 PM

Over a fucking pack of cigs

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: olddude
Date: 03 Dec 14 - 10:42 PM

Greg I can't believe everyone is not outraged over that video. I am a trained ex agent. I know whatiI am talking about and they murdered that big guy for no reason

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: olddude
Date: 03 Dec 14 - 10:42 PM

Greg I can't believe everyone is not outraged over that video. I am a trained ex agent. I know whatiI am talking about and they murdered that big guy for no reason

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: wysiwyg
Date: 03 Dec 14 - 11:54 PM

[Phoenix, AZ] Rumain Brisbon, father of four and resident of Phoenix, AZ was killed by an unnamed Phoenix Police Officer on Tuesday December 2, 2014.

~S~

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: olddude
Date: 04 Dec 14 - 12:04 AM

Cnn has wide spread protesting in nyc thank god. Breaks my heart. All they had to do was give him a summons. He died for a small fine. My god

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: olddude
Date: 04 Dec 14 - 12:17 AM

Youccould hear him saying you guys have to stop me every time you see me. Why I get sick of it. Who would not. I can understand that. Every time I go to the airport I get searched I got pissed one day and took my shirt off to show the surgery scars and metal. When you go outside and are treated like dirt after a while you do get pissed. Even so he never resisted and died for a simple summary offence because he was murdered. Just heard some police captain say the officers did nothing wrong. That tells me it will continue and their dept will continue to hire racist thugs

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: olddude
Date: 04 Dec 14 - 12:28 AM

Protect and serve who just us light skin people I guess. Other fellow Americans get murdered

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: wysiwyg
Date: 04 Dec 14 - 07:07 AM

Mr. Akai Gurley, November 2014, NY,NY., age 28, totally innocent'.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/11/22/akai-gurley-nypd_n_6205492.html

~S~

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Dec 14 - 08:59 AM

NYC = Mississippi North??

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Dec 14 - 09:20 AM

50 Years Ago

Pay particular attention to the last verse.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Dec 14 - 01:03 PM

Looks like good old-style Southern lynching may be Making A Comeback

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: olddude
Date: 04 Dec 14 - 01:45 PM

They could not just write him a ticket no had to knock him down and choke him against their dept policy not to arrest people for trival offences yet they then say the cops were justified even when we all see the video. I been so mad I am spitting nails

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: GUEST,sawzaw
Date: 04 Dec 14 - 01:48 PM


A police officer was cleared of wrongdoing on Friday by a grand jury who said he was defending himself when he shot and killed unarmed 18-year-old freshman Gil Collar

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: olddude
Date: 04 Dec 14 - 02:29 PM

Last year when I got into a confrontation with the creep that was filming my daughter breast feeding I put him down with a wrist lock. There was no reason for a choke hold especially that one. Murdered

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 04 Dec 14 - 08:28 PM

OK, let's take this on a level. As certain police are obviously doing something even a certifiable cretin would have doubts about, and yet nothing is being done about it, and this has been going on for years, WHY does the US put up with it. Yes, I know, it's the same circles and "We are the State and you do not question Us" logic that we saw in the gun law abuse. Power which corrupts and has reached the point where the checks and controls, which were supposed to operate to stop it, don't, because they've either started to idenitfy with the systems they are supposed to monitor with prudent caution through over-familiarity or because they've been actively subverted, or at the very least they've been allowed to fall into disuse because they never found anything because they were never expected or allowed to find anything. It is equally obvious they cannot actively monito everything all the time, but when nothing happens, then it's time to replace the Watchers, the quis custodiet over the ipsos custodies.
The FBI is charged with prosecuting the Civl Rights Act 1964 as it's fifth Priority, and public Corruption as its fourth. Its first, counter-terrorism, is farmed out to Homeland Security, its second, counterintelligence, and third, cyberwarfare, to a number of other Agencies, so one might begin to wonder what it is actually doing - and why it has been silent in these questions.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Dec 14 - 10:48 PM

The Obama administration's Justice Department says that it's OK to act out against jury verdicts. Meanwhile the administration is militarizing police departments. Deadly conflict is inevitable.

Another Obama legacy.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: wysiwyg
Date: 04 Dec 14 - 11:01 PM

Thanks, Komesia Umstead.
From NAACP Legal Defense Fund:

2014: Tamir Rice (Cleveland, OH)
2014: Akai Gurley (Brooklyn, NY)
2014: Victor White III (Iberia Parish, LA)
2014: Dante Parker (San Bernardino County, CA)
2014: Kaijeme Powell (St. Louis, MO)
2014: Ezell Ford (Los Angeles, CA)
2014: Michael Brown (Ferguson, MO)
2014: McKenzie Cochran (Southfield, MI)
2014: Tyree Woodson (Baltimore, MD)
2014: John Crawford III (Beavercreek, OH)
2014: Eric Garner (New York, NY)
2014: Yvette Smith (Bastrop, TX)
2014: Jordan Baker (Houston, TX)
2013: Kayla Moore (Berkeley, CA)
2013: Barrington Williams (New York, NY)
2013: Andy Lopez (Santa Rosa, CA)
2013: Carlos Alcis (New York, NY)
2013: Deion Fludd (New York, NY)
2013: Jonathan Ferrell (Bradfield Farms, NC)
2013: Kimani Gray (New York, NY)
2013: Kyam Livingstone (New York, NY)
2013: Larry Eugene Jackson, Jr. (Austin, TX)
2013: Miriam Carey (Washington, DC)
2012: Chavis Carter (Jonesboro, AR)
2012: Dante Price (Dayton, OH)
2012: Duane Brown (New York, NY)
2012: Ervin Jefferson (Atlanta, GA)
2012: Jersey Green (Aurora, IL)
2012: Johnnnie Kamahi Warren (Dothan, AL)
2012: Justin Slipp (New Orleans, LA)
2012: Kendrec McDade (Pasadena, CA)
2012: Malissa Williams (Cleveland, OH)
2012: Nehemiah Dillard (Gainesville, FL)
2012: Ramarley Graham (New York, NY)
2012: Raymond Allen (Galveston, TX)
2012: Rekia Boyd (Chicago, IL)
2012: Reynaldo Cuevas (New York, NY)
2012: Robert Dumas Jr (Cleveland, OH)
2012: Sgt. Manuel Loggins Jr (Orange County, CA)
2012: Shantel Davis (New York, NY)
2012: Sharmel Edwards (Las Vegas, NV)
2012: Shereese Francis (New York, NY)
2012: Tamon Robinson (New York, NY)
2012: Timothy Russell (Cleveland, OH)
2012: Wendell Allen (New Orleans, LA)
2011: Alonzo Ashley (Denver, CO)
2011: Jimmell Cannon (Chicago, IL)
2011: Kenneth Chamberlain (White Plains, NY)
2011: Kenneth Harding (San Francisco, CA)
2011: Raheim Brown (Oakland, CA)
2011: Reginald Doucet (Los Angeles, CA)
2010: Aaron Campbell (Portland, OR)
2010: Aiyana Jones (Detroit, MI)
2010: Danroy Henry (Thornwood, NY)
2010: Derrick Jones (Oakland, CA)
2010: Steven Eugene Washington (Los Angeles, CA)
2009: Kiwane Carrington (Champaign, IL)
2009: Oscar Grant (Oakland, CA)
2009: Shem Walker (New York, NY)
2009: Victor Steen (Pensacola, FL)
2008: Tarika Wilson (Lima, OH)
2007: DeAunta Terrel Farrow (West Memphis, AR)
2006: Sean Bell (New York, NY)
2005: Henry Glover (New Orleans, LA)
2005: James Brisette (New Orleans, LA)
2005: Ronald Madison (New Orleans, LA)
2004: Timothy Stansbury (New York, NY)
2003: Alberta Spruill (New York, NY)
2003: Orlando Barlow (Las Vegas, NV)
2003: Ousmane Zongo (New York, NY)
2001: Timothy Thomas (Cincinnati, OH)
2000: Earl Murray (Dellwood, MO)
2000: Malcolm Ferguson (New York, NY)
2000: Patrick Dorismond (New York, NY)
2000: Prince Jones (Fairfax County, VA)
2000: Ronald Beasley (Dellwood, MO)
1999: Amadou Diallo (New York, NY)

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 05 Dec 14 - 09:24 AM

I make that 77!

One victim every 4.7 days.

And SoreJaw thinks that posting two cases with white victims balances the books.

Shows what he thinks of the value of black lives. About the same as the police and the Grand Jury, apparently!

Are all US law enforcement drawn from the Deep South Ku Klux Klan community? It sure looks that way!

We watched on TV last night as a peaceful demonstration in the streets, with people walking slowly, hands in the air, chanting "We're Black! Don't Shoot!", was met by several lines of heavily armed police in full riot gear!

Says it all really! The police default position is overwhelming force in all situations involving black protesters.

Their motto should be "Subdue, or Kill!"

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: GUEST,sawzaw
Date: 05 Dec 14 - 10:08 AM

Line of Duty Deaths 2014: 107
Assault: 2
Automobile accident: 24
Drowned: 1
Fire: 1
Gunfire: 43
Gunfire (Accidental): 2
Heart attack: 15
Motorcycle accident: 3
Struck by vehicle: 3
Vehicle pursuit: 3
Vehicular assault: 10

By State
Alabama: 4
Alaska: 2
Arizona: 2
Arkansas: 1
California: 14
Colorado: 1
Florida: 5
Georgia: 4
Illinois: 1
Indiana: 4
Kansas: 1
Kentucky: 1
Louisiana: 1
Massachusetts: 1
Michigan: 1
Minnesota: 1
Mississippi: 1
Missouri: 2
Montana: 1
Nebraska: 2
Nevada: 2
New Hampshire: 1
New Jersey: 3
New Mexico: 1
New York: 5
North Carolina: 2
Ohio: 1
Oklahoma: 2
Pennsylvania: 3
Puerto Rico: 5
South Carolina: 3
Tennessee: 5
Texas: 11
Tribal Police: 2
U.S. Government: 6
Utah: 1
Virginia: 3
Wisconsin: 1

Male: 103
Female: 4

Average age: 41
Average tour of duty: 12 years, 10 months

More here

Cameron Tillman:
On the evening of September 21 2014, police were called to check on reports of trespassers with weapons going into an abandoned home in Terrebonne, Louisiana. Cameron Tillman, a 14-year-old boy was shot dead on the scene by a sheriff's deputy. His brother, who was there, said he was shot opening the door and was unarmed, but the police said he was armed and that a gun was recovered near his body. It was later reported that the weapon was a BB gun that appeared to be a .45-caliber pistol.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Dec 14 - 10:15 AM

So friggin' what?

Does that justify killing one unarmed black person every five days?

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 05 Dec 14 - 10:26 AM

Incidentally SoreJaw, in one of the cases you cited, the cop shot a white teenager who was both unarmed and bloody naked.

Did he think the kid might have a .44 Magnum concealed up his arse?

When the cops shoot first, shoot without thinking, and shoot to kill, as well as shooting black people for little more than being BLACK and being THERE, I should have thought you would be at least a little bit aware that something is wrong with the cops, not their victims.

Perhaps I'm expecting too much in the way of rational thought on your part?

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 05 Dec 14 - 10:43 AM

Are you seriously including the 15 heart attacks, 2 accidental shootings, the 3 M/cycle and 24 Auto accidents and one each, fire and drowning, in your feeble defense of shooting unarmed black people?

46 deaths out of 107 not due to enemy action in any form.

Only 43 reported deliberate gun deaths, without any clue as to circumstances.

So are you trying to claim that 15 black people caused those heart attacks, presumably by coming up behind a cop and yelling BOO?

Don't get me wrong! I have sympathy for every one of those 107 cops and for their friends and families.

I have no sympathy or respect for an arsehole who tries to use their deaths to justify a bunch of gung ho killers in uniform, setting out to even the score by killing black people indiscriminately.

They and you disgrace the memory of those dead policemen.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Dec 14 - 11:36 AM

SoreJaw is, and always has been, brain-damaged white trash. Ignore it.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: wysiwyg
Date: 05 Dec 14 - 01:34 PM

"Criminal justice experts note that, while the federal government and national research groups keep scads of data and statistics— on topics ranging from how many people were victims of unprovoked shark attacks (53 in 2013) to the number of hogs and pigs living on farms in the U.S. (upwards of 64,000,000 according to 2010 numbers) — there is no reliable national data on how many people are shot by police officers each year....

...Law enforcement watchdog groups and think tanks say that the lack of comprehensive data on police shootings hampers the ability of departments to develop best practices and cut down on unnecessary shootings."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2014/09/08/how-many-police-shootings-a-year-no-one-knows/

~S~

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: wysiwyg
Date: 05 Dec 14 - 01:39 PM

Wall Street Journal analysis finds that HUNDREDS of homicides by law enforcement agencies in the U.S. between 2007 and 2012 are not included in FBI records, WSJ's Rob Barry reports... and (duh!), what's the racial breakdown, one wonders?!?!?!

OK. Numbers. Assume that "hundreds" means "200", at a minimum...
divided by the max of 6t years this report covers
(depending on precise start and end dates).
200/6 = an average of AT LEAST 33 lives LOST per YEAR....
"The reports to the FBI are part of its uniform crime reporting program. Local law-enforcement agencies aren't required to participate."

http://m.wsj.com/articles/hundreds-of-police-killings-are-uncounted-in-federal-statistics-1417577504?mobile=y&mod=djemalertNEWS

~S~

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 05 Dec 14 - 08:31 PM

The statistics are immaterial. Each victim is unique to their family, and if there is even one, then that is one too many. We rely on the police to be the first level of justice, and if they are not just, then there is no justice. The first problem they have is that they have been sold the line that the Law is just, and that's obviously not true: the Law needs to be applied with sound judgement, and it doesn't always happen. Taking the Law into their own hands because of a minor disagreement shortcircuits the provisions built into the Law to ensure common sense is brought to bear at the earliest opportunity, and that then results in what is happening. It means the fine sense of injustice I discussed above, when it takes a while for true justice to be found (which is the flip side of the old saw that justice delayed is justice denied), becomes a course sense of injustice when such obvious abuse as has happened - both in the US and in the UK, let me hasten to add, lest anyone think I am letting the UK police off the hook - is allowed to pass uncorrected.
Reducing injustic to a game of statistics is an inhummanly cruel twist of the knife, dismissing the value of a human life as irrelevent, a mere cipher. It is not whether you can quantify it, it's whether you should quantify it. It's irresponsible, and denies the blame for allowing it.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: wysiwyg
Date: 05 Dec 14 - 10:52 PM

Rahere, I completely disagree because to me, each name is the beginning of a search to find out what happened and what that individual's life was about as separate from the remaking of their legacy. To me this is the required NAMING of people who are so often treated as nameless. It's a way of NOT benefiting from the displaying of their bodies, by looking past the smeared and blamed image the cops in most cases gave them.

I understand your point, Rahere, but it misses my heart. It misses also the reality that friends who are people of color expect me to take that journey and are waiting for what I wll learn on it. And not a one of them sees it your way. I'll be happy to check with them if you don't mind my quoting your post.

Would you have objected in the same way to the memorialization of lives lost by shipwreck? I think (I hope) you would stand by respectfully while name after name tolled, not interrupt to correct the one memorializing.

~S~

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: wysiwyg
Date: 06 Dec 14 - 07:24 PM

Regarding statistics and leaving people unnamed-- Historically, slavers would throw Black enslaved human beings overboard sometimes.

Individually, they might do this as a "quarantine" strategy if people were ill or inciting rebellion, or corporately-- to the whole "cargo" of hundreds of captives-- to avoid being caught with slaves on board after the abominable trade was outlawed. Or to collect on the insurance. Picture: ABOUT 1/4 WAY DOWN PAGE (I do not endorse the article itself)

To fail to note the stats and the names is a similar modern-times sinking of people into nameless martyrdom.

To fail to recognize the power of collecting and distributing the data is to fail to see how change actually happens-- one has to know the problem in order to solve it!

~Susan

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 06 Dec 14 - 07:43 PM

WYSIWYG, i think you misunderstand me: I started out saying that each of those harmed in this failure of justice is an individual and must be treated as such, which is your point. We must not treat them as part of a class, but as individuals, with their successes and failures. The failures of the justice systems are not something which can be addressed by yet another program, that has happened and if it still fails, anything more is putting a sticking plaster on a suppurating wound, more radical measures are needed, and that starts with the Police dealing with citizens as people. Not as minorities, not as perps or crims (not even gracing them with a presumption of innocence or even the real word, because the real word condemns them for failing to do so), nor even as us-and-them, but as individuals. The real failing is that we allow the headline of the meme being "Another black man shot by cop" rather than "Another man shot by a racist cop". It's not the colour which matters, but the racism, and collecting your data according to the wrong criterion lets those really responsible off the hook.
I think, therefore, that what you may have fallen victim to is reflecting your own weaknesses in your reading of what I posted.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: wysiwyg
Date: 06 Dec 14 - 10:02 PM

Nope.

The reality is and has been that Black folks (who mostly these days are choosing to sekf identify as such) are disproportionately victimized-- fatally-- in the US system which could only exist in its present form as a result of the slave labor this country was founded upon... and the genocide of much of that reproductive labor pool's skns and daughters once their labor had to be bought, not stolen.

In THAT sense, being "colorblind" only perpetuates that system, by covering it up.

~S~

Subject: any mod help request
From: wysiwyg
Date: 06 Dec 14 - 10:05 PM

Typos in my post just previous...

Should be

self
sons

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: wysiwyg
Date: 06 Dec 14 - 10:32 PM

Given the realities Black folks face, it would be great if more white folks could start to hear how it really feels most if not all of the time. Here is some input from them as distilled by Tim Wise in an extended simile. Wise can be hard to hear in person-- he yells a lot because he's so fed up with Racism-- but IMO this may be his best writing, for degoofing privileged white denial.

"Can we just put aside all we think we know about black communities (most of which could fit in a thimble, truth be told) and imagine what it must feel like to walk through life as the embodiment of other people's fear, as a monster that haunts their dreams the way Freddie Kreuger does in the movies? To be the physical representation of what marks a neighborhood as bad, a school as bad, not because of anything you have actually done, but simply because of the color of your skin? Surely that is not an inconsequential weight to bear. To go through life, every day, having to think about how to behave so as not to scare white people, or so as not to trigger our contempt---thinking about how to dress, and how to walk and how to talk and how to respond to a cop (not because you're wanting to be polite, but because you'd like to see your mother again)---iswork; and it's harder than any job that any white person has ever had in this country. To be seen as a font of cultural contagion is tantamount to being a modern day leper."

http://m.dailykos.com/story/2014/11/24/1345457/-Repetitive-Motion-Disorder-Black-Reality-and-White-Denial-in-America

~S~

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 07 Dec 14 - 05:37 AM

Stop and think a little, while what you say is not untrue, it completely misses the target through the hurt. It's not being black which is wrong, it's the consequence of that which is. You've got to get past this black-and-white dichotomy if we're ever going to make headway, and that might require a short period of reverse discrimination to highlight the people who can't cope with it. I too (don't we all? if not, why not, you're losing out) have black friends in one of the most deprived areas of London, and we treat each other as people whose skin just happens to be of different colours.
Problems only come from those who see the skin as a short-cut identifier of a fundamental difference in culture in a negative way. It's the reaction which is wrong and has to be sorted, not saying it like it is allows them to get away with it. In that headline, it either suggests all cops are racist - and I hope not - or that the authority of the cop is such that the question cannot be addressed - which may be true, thanks to the idea that Grand Juries can be led by the nose in the States and the track record in the UK of malfeasance in public office in places like Oldham. If so, it's wrong, and that is the question under examination: in the UK the first hearing is almost always before a magistrate who's been around the block a few times, addressing the US question.
Emphasising the race rather than the discrimination just victimises further, and actualy plays the racists game for them. Criminals exist in all communities, at least potentially in the eyes of the Law which treats all equally, and to say "I can't be held to account because I'm black" is also in and of itself racist - and that may also be an element of the pproblem in Ferguson. Not the critical part, but a part none the less. To say "Your judgement, Mr Policeman, is wrong because you (among others, but we'll start with you because you're sheltering them) don't apply the Law equitably (in equal proportion to all)" is addressing the heart of the problem, and the question then becomes whether Mr Plod is capable of getting the balance right, after the training he's had, and if not how the hell he can be allowed to continue with the extra authority his post brings with it, as it turns the entire society racist to a degree.
In the UK, we've passed the point where we've asked the first question, asking the Police to correct their racist culture, in the 1999 Macpherson Report into the killing of Stephen Lawrence by a quasi-fascist gang operating under the shelter of the local police, which described the Police Force as a whole as institutionally racist. If they have not got it right fifteen years later, then next time there can be no mercy. We are currently asking the same question about widespread kowtowing at the very least to a bunch of paedophiles certainly highly-placed in certain communities and possibly in Parliament as well. That widens the question from "stop being racist" to "start doing your bloody jobs of applying the law equally". So fundamental is that challenge, though, that I think that if the evidence brings us to that position, then there may be cases for summary dismissals for gross misconduct, not least in public office.
But when things happen, they are reacted to. As I type, a deputy District Judge at Preston Magistrates Court has just steppped down after making some grossly disparagingly racist comments about an Asian witness. In this country (UK), we are becoming actively anti-racist not in a psotively-discriminatory way, but purely and simply by not accepting it in any shape or form. Indeed, we are becoming slightly anti-positive discrimination, because it has served its time: the need is to lift black communities which have suffered. It's not entirely there yet, though, Tottenham still has abusive landlords, but they are being exposed. The question is rather one of access to services - the queue for the support services at the local Council has to be seen to be believed. At least the distribution of public financing is weighted to address the question, discretionary money going to neighbourhoods proportionately to need.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: wysiwyg
Date: 07 Dec 14 - 11:32 AM

How wonderful that you have the benefit of hindsight!

Rahere, what you don't have is the US legacy of an economy built upon slavery from its outset. We are where we are. I'm fine with following the leadership of Black leaders who have chosen which white US voices to work with, incorporate, and showcase. I haven't heard them rely on any white UK leaders, tho one of the best pieces in my training kit's resource library includes Black UK voices and, I believe, was UK-produced.

You might be surprised that no one in that piece agrees with how much progress you seem to think has been made. I hope someday the US will get where it needs to go, and that the UK will too.

~S~

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: wysiwyg
Date: 07 Dec 14 - 12:18 PM

My friend Nick Peterson is one of many Black voices I follow. He wrote this essay soon after the Garner grand jury decision. It reflects all the historical material I absorbed last year, about the US's actual beginnings-- I don't just 'parrot' what I have not first done my homework about.

[language warning]

The historical function of policing in America, even in the colonial days was to protect the bodies, property, and wealth of white men, particularly British imperialists. Under this premise white women and children become extensions of white men - worthy of protection. Black men, women and children become, on one hand, the property of and wealth producers for white men, and on the other, threats to white bodies, property, and wealth. The black body as an object embodies the blessing and the curse holding life and death, the survival of whiteness. Black resistance, then, the kind that would necessitate policing, becomes any act that would challenge a notion of black bodies as more than objects - making it criminal to claim humanity- or that would disrupt wealth production - making it criminal to be a free black body.

Policing of black bodies from the 17th century forward has been rooted in the premise that black bodies are a) property and b) obligated to fulfill the will and work in the best interest [of] white power. You cannot tease racism out of economic disenfranchisement in America, because the entire function of race has been to create, not a "class" - but a plantation of wealth-producing objects. Objects who are not human, whose bodies are only worth what they can be whipped into harvesting.

POTUS is shining example of how this works. PBO can be ANYTHING but Black. He can be educated, articulate, hardworking, a dad, a husband, a lawyer, a politician, a BlackAmerican, and even bi-racial, but he cannot embody Blackness, because that would undermine a founding value of the American Enterprise. In his position he must uphold what has always been upheld - the protection of white bodies, property, and wealth. And any black body that poses a threat to the institutionalized embodiment of whiteness is a black body that MUST be cut down and shown for the object it is in death - a nigga/er.

So for folks who think racism is only about tending to how one individual white person treats one individual black person, or having a black friend, or liking black music, or finding black babies so cute, or white cop hugging a black kid, you simply perpetuate the black-body-as-an-object racist ideology established hundreds of years ago.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: olddude
Date: 07 Dec 14 - 01:23 PM

As we learned how to treat minorities from the British it continues. Some day I hope we treat all Americans as Americans

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Dec 14 - 02:19 PM

Rahere, I suspect from what you say that you live somewhere fairly nice.

My village has a pub that was featured on the front page of the Torygraph with the loathsome Farage drinking in it.

My girlfriend lives in West Croydon. Visit it some time.

You don't seem to get it.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: wysiwyg
Date: 07 Dec 14 - 04:30 PM

Here are 5 things white folks can all start doing, do more, o better, and/or put into tangible action.

All 5 are also common threads running thru every anti-racism activity or program I've ever taken or presented. All 5 elements have been part of every relationship I've ever had with a POGM (person of the global majority) that survived my racist conditioning. All 5 can create change larger than they probably feel like at the time. In other words, you can take these to the bank.

I'd love to hear other's stories about when you did any of these 5, what happened, how it felt at the time, and/or what changed.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/12/05/franchesca-ramsey-video-ally_n_6275680.html

~Susan

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Dec 14 - 10:26 PM

I thought I'd make a blicky to assist the hard of understanding.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/12/05/franchesca-ramsey-video-ally_n_6275680.html

It's a shame to see the grammatical nonsense that "ally" is not a noun but only exists as a verb.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: wysiwyg
Date: 08 Dec 14 - 08:49 AM

Thanks RB. When I'm posting from the fone it's not feasible to create links so I always appreciate an assist, there.

Songs have started coming out about some of these recently-lost lives. I hope if folks see these, they'll post them here.

~S~

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 08 Dec 14 - 09:09 AM

I do: let's post them here.

1. Understand your privilege.
2. Listen and do your homework.
3. Speak up, not over   
4. You'll make mistakes, apologize when you do.
5. Ally is a verb -- saying you're an ally is not enough.

We must each speak for ourselves: here are my answers
1. I do - and I don't, as I disparage it. We're humans and should value each other for what's inside, not what's behind us. I think that might be where we can come together, the past is written, it's the future which matters and if you go forwards believing you can't, you won't. It's the step of faith Churches go on about, self-belief and working from the ground up.
2. Better yet, feel it and make it as much your hurt as you can, it'll never match the pain of those who suffer every day. In my case, it's family: my aunt by marriage was Yvonne Ruddock's aunt by blood.
3. I do, I do.
4. Indeed, humility is where it starts from.
5. I spent about a month this summer putting a project together to get rowing into London's sink estates, Downham, Thamesmead, Broadwater Farm and Edmonton, to act as a core to build character and get some recognition and self-respect into those areas. It fell through when the upper class backers wouldn't put up as they said they would, didn't have the hurt: they were starting from the top down and, lacking foundations, shifted. If anyone has the interest?

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Dec 14 - 09:33 AM

Rowing? FFS Rahere, how out of touch can you be? Whatever next? Fencing? Real Tennis? Polo?

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: wysiwyg
Date: 08 Dec 14 - 10:21 AM

No, wait a minute RB. Let's not turn this thread into the usual pissing contest between white folks. Rahere is at specific ,today-only point on a continuum of growing past racism, we all are. Sometimes it's better to encourage people forward rather than entomb them under invective-- no one makes real progress on one's self that way. Let me have time to understand what was posted, and respond, OK? This is a thread about Black lives lost, let's keep it on track. Pretty please.

~S~

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: wysiwyg
Date: 08 Dec 14 - 08:44 PM

Rahere, there is much I agree with from a US perspective, in your post-- I'll just start by making those I agree with boldface. I'm adding a little open space between your points.

1. Understand your privilege.
2. Listen and do your homework.
3. Speak up, not over   
4. You'll make mistakes, apologize when you do.
5. Ally is a verb -- saying you're an ally is not enough.

We must each speak for ourselves: here are my answers

1. I do - and I don't, as I disparage it. We're humans and should value each other for what's inside, not what's behind us. I think that might be where we can come together, the past is written, it's the future which matters and if you go forwards believing you can't, you won't. It's the step of faith Churches go on about, self-belief and working from the ground up.

2. Better yet, feel it and make it as much your hurt as you can, it'll never match the pain of those who suffer every day. In my case, it's family: my aunt by marriage was Yvonne Ruddock's aunt by blood.

3. I do, I do.

4. Indeed, humility is where it starts from.

5. I spent about a month this summer putting a project together to get rowing into London's sink estates, Downham, Thamesmead, Broadwater Farm and Edmonton, to act as a core to build character and get some recognition and self-respect into those areas. It fell through when the upper class backers wouldn't put up as they said they would, didn't have the hurt: they were starting from the top down and, lacking foundations, shifted. If anyone has the interest?


Where I see things a little differently:

1. White folks already think they know how Black folks "should" think and perceive. In the US, to stay on that course eliminates any relationship beyond the superficial, if even that much is possible. Our whole system is based upon Black equating to "can't." To encourage Black folks past that is only feasible when one first honors their views about reality where, as you point out, each must speak for oneself. The Black "oneself" in the US cries out to be heard and not evaluated. Empathy more than information. Listening more than assuming one can even start to understand. Listening quietly and then mulling over what has been heard.

2. What is asked in the US is exactly what the blogger emphasized: LISTENING. If one then ALSO finds one's empathy engaged, so much the better, but IN THE U.S., the legacy is such that insisting that one can empathize in parallel, again, eliminates relationship. This is because here, insistence equates to power-- misused yet another time.

No idea what this means: "my aunt by marriage was Yvonne Ruddock's aunt by blood."

3. I just want to learn more here. It's a tantalizing possibility to me that any white person could do this really, really well; that one's default setting could really be this, and that people of color would agree that it is genuine. So I have to ask, how is this possible? What is in your personal history that leads you to be able to do this? Is it not part of UK conditioning to 'speak over', as it is in the US? I will say that UK Blacks seem to lack an edge of... self-abuse that is part of the legacy here. Does that lead to less "trumping" by whites, over there? If it does, I envy you all even more.

4. Amen, and your open spirit did lead me to spend this time exploring your thoughts.

5. This whole section is Greek to me. It's so NOT my culture, I'd love to know more.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Dec 14 - 09:44 PM

White Florida deputy shoots black man who witnesses say had hands up
Reuters
By Barbara Liston 1 hour ago 8 Dec 2014

ORLANDO, Fla. (Reuters) - A Florida sheriff called for calm after a 28-year-old unarmed black man in a stolen car was shot and critically wounded early on Monday by a white officer, after witness reports that the man had his hands up and amid racially charged protests nationwide about police violence.

http://news.yahoo.com/white-florida-deputy-shoots-black-man-witnesses-had-004052289.html

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: wysiwyg
Date: 08 Dec 14 - 10:49 PM

Sigh....

Information about large numbers of Black women is coming out now. I haven't seen names yet.

~S~

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Dec 14 - 04:03 AM

About Yvonne Ruddock's death

I am I hope in tune with the 5 ally points.

My point about rowing in inner-city deprived and largely black estates is that rowing is a sport in England dominated by Oxford, Cambridge, Eton and Millfield. Wanting Afrikan youth to participate is surely contrary to points 1 and 3. It would be part of a make-over of Afrikan youth in the style of the most privileged Oyinbo.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: GUEST,sawzaw
Date: 09 Dec 14 - 09:17 AM

More than 100 people protest at the Orange County Courthouse. The group, who said they are seeking Justice for James Whitehead - an Orange man fatally shot by an off-duty police officer in July - is angry that the officer was not indicted by a grand jury. The protesters blame Orange County District Attorney John Kimbrough, claiming he did not present a fair case to grand jurors...........

More here

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: wysiwyg
Date: 09 Dec 14 - 11:04 AM

Thanks sawzaw.

A friend of mine leads a justice-oriented nonprofit in Rochester, torn by 'riots' in the 60's and still trying to heal. Steve blogs from his years' work in building alliances that last, across the color line, at the Rochester Democrat and Chronicle which has taken on giving those healing efforts a diverse voice.

His words of this last few weeks are apt for recent posts' themes:

American history is more one sided than textbooks would have us believe. It takes humility to go deep, learn the truth, and grieve for all that [our people] have done. When we acknowledge our painful past we are better able to heal, make restitution and adjust the scale of justice toward equity.

I had a relaxing chat with my white friends in our suburban neighborhood recently. We shared updates about our European Heritage families, new Caucasian restaurants we'd like to try, and the latest student achievements in our Anglo school districts. Come to think of it, most of our close friends are white, too. We didn't speak of color. We didn't even think about it. We didn't have to.

We're proud to say we don't see color and that our Caucasian children are totally color blind. To truly see color would be an inconvenience, an impediment to our comfortable lives. We pretend that color is irrelevant.

So when I attended a local rally to protest police profiling in Ferguson, Cleveland and New York City, I was somewhat confused by the signs reading 'Black Lives Matter.' White lives matter, too, I silently protested. All lives matter.

Then it hit me. Everything in my world tells me that white lives matter. If Black lives mattered, I'd do something about the inequity between failing city schools and my white privileged suburban schools. I'd look for ways to reduce disproportionate employment rates of people of color. I'd confront my family stereotypes. I'd take in the rich diversity of urban culture.

My behavior at the rally is no different from police practices I'm here to protest. No one gets killed, yet my behavior impacts the lives of those I'm here to support. The point is BLACK LIVES MATTER.

And the death toll among Black women killed by white police is enumerated with links to details HERE, as SPEAK NAMES, KNOW STORIES.

The names and any details I have so far are:

Adaisha Miller, Detroit Woman, Hugged Cop From Behind

LAPD cop charged with assault in death of Alesia Thomas

7-year- old Aiyana Stanley-Jones – Detroit Free Press

17 Year Old Darnesha Harris Dead after Run-In with Breaux

Mackala Ross and Delores Epps

Eleanor Bumpurs

Erica Collins family files lawsuit against Cincy Police

Jacqueline Culp

Karen Day

Kendra James remembered at Portland rally | KOIN.com

Laporsha Watson

Malissa Williams

Elderly Woman Shot & Killed By Hearne Police Officer (Pearlie Golden)

Rekia Boyd Settlement: Family Of Unarmed Chicago Woman

Former Pa. trooper pleads guilty in fatal accident (Robin T. Williams)

Shantel Davis Killed By NYPD Cop In Car Chase | News One

Friends: Woman killed by police was nonviolent | Las Vegas (Sharmel Edwards)

Suspected Walmart Shoplifter Shot To Death In Front Of Kids (Shelly Frey)

The NYPD's Poor Judgment With the Mentally Ill | Village Voice (Shereese Francis)

Harrisburg woman identified as victim in police SUV crash (Shulena S. Weldon)

No Charges in Killing of Tyisha Miller – Los Angeles Times

Texas Police Admit Officer Shot & Killed Unarmed Woman (Yvette Smith)

Where is the Outrage in the Police Killing of Tanesha Anderson? (Tanesha Anderson)

Judge drops involuntary manslaughter in Aiyana shooting (Aiyana Stanley Jones)

New Brunswick man charged in 20-year-old murder case | NJ.com (Carolyn "Sissy Adams" Adams)

I'll Be Remembering Eula Love's Death (Eula Love)

Cooley's Office Declines to Charge Officer in Mitchell Shooting (Margaret Mitchell)

Aura Rosser: Police Kill Mich. Woman After Responding To Domestic Violence Call

Mourners remember Phoenix woman killed in police shooting (Michelle Cusseaux)

Ex-Atlanta officers get prison time for cover-up in deadly raid (Kathryn Johnston)

Atlanta police officer accused of killing woman he met on Craigslist (Vernicia Woodard)

Anna Brown: 29-year-old Black Woman Dies in Jail After Being Dragged By Police Out of Hospital

~S~

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Dec 14 - 09:00 PM

http://cms.fightforthefuture.org/illinois-just-made-it-felony-film-cops/

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Dec 14 - 09:21 PM

I'm not clear what "speak up, not over" means here.

It seems to imply they are alternatives, or have much to do with each other. Speaking up is about refusing to be silent in the face of stuff like racism, and too few of us do that, speaking over is about being discourteous when someone else is speaking and it happens too often in all kinds of contexts.

Rowing? Well there are an awful lot of rowing machines in body building gymnasium settings. It'd make a lot of sense to make it possible for kids who've built up the strength and skills that way to try them out with real boats, and show what they could do.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 14 - 12:16 AM

The technique of infamy is to invent two lies and get people to argue over which one is true.

It's absurd to suggest that Darren Wilson is a racist. Any white person who robbed a store, assaulted the clerk, slugged a cop, tried to take his gun, then ran away, and then turned back and charged the cop would have been shot repeatedly until he fell and stopped moving.

But it's equally absurd to suggest that we're not a racist culture, or that life isn't a great deal harder here for people of color, or that the incidence of shootings of young black men isn't a national disgrace, or that we white Americans aren't collectively guilty of turning a blind eye to all that. We should do whatever it takes, and spare no expense, to create a culture in which black youth aren't prone to find themselves in the position that Michael Brown was in.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 10 Dec 14 - 01:04 AM

Sometimes the police are justified...sometimes not..but before you all reach some popular mindset, one should look at each individual case(if you REALLY care to), and not lump all of them into some racist conspiracy.....but I guess if you're bored, and want to 're-live- the good ol' days', and want to pretend to give a shit...at least be fair.

GfS

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Dec 14 - 09:38 AM

Maryland used have the KKK but after two years of a black musician writing a book having talks with the leader of the KKK and his body guard, both KKK leaders quit and the clan disbanded..

Hate isn't even skin deep.
Its fear that can creep.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Dec 14 - 09:44 AM

Despite your heart-warming story, Donuel, there are plenty of other Klaverns out there still doing business as usual and a plethora of white supremecist groups. You may care to visit the Southern Poverty Law Center website for a reality check.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Dec 14 - 09:59 AM

By the way, Donuel, have you a reference for your heart-warming story? All I was able to find was:

One of the best examples of the closeness between the National Socialist Movement and Klan groups occurred in late November 2006, when the Maryland-based World Knights of the KKK disbanded due to factional infighting. Its leader, Gordon Young, took his followers into the NSM and became its Maryland state leader.

From Here

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 10 Dec 14 - 11:51 AM

Thanks Donuel.....music CAN change people, and influence politics....my, do you think music can be more powerful than bullshit politics?....Beethoven's music has already outlasted SEVERAL radical political changes and regimes, and forms of government in Austria and Germany.....meanwhile, back at the Mudcat peanut gallery, factions, trying to divvy up the hate and discontent along bogus political folly, are completely ignoring the power we, as musicians, can REALLY do!.... but N-o-o-oooo....you'd give your abilities over to party bosses, who tell you what to think and say.......

Hurray for creativity!.....only on here, creativity begins and ends with trying to be mentally blocked...and therefore STUPID!

GfS

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Dec 14 - 12:00 PM

Say good-night, Goofus.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Dec 14 - 12:20 PM

Brown, albeit a nasty thug, was not "charging" Wilson when shot to death. He was staggering slowly, with several bullet hole in him, and bleeding. Check the sound tapes and the timings.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 10 Dec 14 - 01:23 PM

Greg F: "Say good-night, Goofus."

Why??...You're already asleep!


GfS

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Dec 14 - 01:53 PM

"Any white person who robbed a store, assaulted the clerk, slugged a cop, tried to take his gun, then ran away, and then turned back and charged the cop would have been shot repeatedly until he fell and stopped moving."

Even though the U.S. is widely known to be very uncivilised in its treatment of offenders, I never realised that the Death Penalty without trial applies to robbery or resisting arrest.

Thank God I live in a civilised country.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: wysiwyg
Date: 10 Dec 14 - 02:34 PM

RE- Even though the U.S. is widely known to be very uncivilised in its treatment of offenders, I never realised that the Death Penalty without trial applies to robbery or resisting arrest.....

Statistics are clear that this applies disproportionately only to People of the Global Majority (AKA in USspeak the Darker Nation).

~S~

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 14 - 05:03 PM

Death penalty without trial is usually reserved for foreigners, like Osama Bin Laden, and wedding parties in Afghanistan and journalists in Iraq. It's occasionally used on Americans, like the people in the Move On project in Philadelphia, or the Branch Davidians in Waco, Texas, but much less often. In either case it has to be authorized by someone high up in the federal government, cabinet level or above. An individual cop can't do it.

But cops can shoot if it's the only way to protect themselves or prevent other people from being killed. Everyone knows this, so when it happens it's either a case of suicide by police, which we have a lot of, or just plain old Darwinian elimination of the mentally less fit.

I personally have known two people who fought with cops, both of them white, and both of them violent-natured idiots. One was no real threat so he just got his butt kicked. The other was a professional boxer, who was able to inflict some damage. His face afterward was hard to look at.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 10 Dec 14 - 06:20 PM

"It's not the colour which matters, but the racism, and collecting your data according to the wrong criterion lets those really responsible off the hook."

With all due respect Rahere, it most definitely IS the colour which matters, if, as we see in the USA, the crime is predominantly White on Black.

I believe the ratio, based on the last year or so, is more than 14 Black deaths for every 1 White death.

COLOUR therefore MATTERS,................GREATLY!

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 10 Dec 14 - 11:58 PM

Hey Troubadour, just like those feeding the biases, you say, "With all due respect Rahere, it most definitely IS the colour which matters, if, as we see in the USA, the crime is predominantly White on Black." is a false and intentionally misleading statement...you should correct it, or get clued in...most black homicides in the USA, are blacks on blacks.....and that IS a fact...look it up...do your homework, before trying to fan the fires of bigotry and racism.

GfS

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Dec 14 - 02:57 AM

Duh, goofball - the vast majority of murder by cop in the USA is white kills black. Face up to it.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 11 Dec 14 - 03:45 AM

How come you aren't concerned with black on black crimes?????
Somebody ends up dead.....and the number is far greater, than white cop on black!!.....That is IF you are actually 'concerned' at all......other than something to beat your gums about!


GfS

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Dec 14 - 05:00 AM

How stupid are you? It's the use of force by the state against citizens. The discrimination by the state against citizens.

As for the rest of US gun crime, if you started taking guns out of circulation that gun crime would fall - but you're too scared (or supportive) of the NRA and the make-believe military communities to do that.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: wysiwyg
Date: 11 Dec 14 - 07:07 AM

One of the biggest mechanisms inhibiting the ending of Sytemic Racism is the divisiveness amongst White folks who, when they successfully resist the conditioning to engage in what Mudcatters call 'pissing contests,' can find commonalities of self-interest making possible large, effective social movements.

'White privilege' is a term used to describe the power vested in white society. If white folks have all that power we certainly *could* use it to stop Systemic Racism-- if only those pissing contests didn't seem like so much fun.

~S~

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Dec 14 - 08:45 AM

Friendly, Liberal, Neighborhood KKK

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Dec 14 - 09:01 AM

U.S. Racist?? NAAAAAH.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 12 Dec 14 - 12:43 AM

Richard Bridge: "As for the rest of US gun crime, if you started taking guns out of circulation that gun crime would fall - but you're too scared (or supportive) of the NRA and the make-believe military communities to do that."

Blaming guns???...That's like Rosie O'Donnell blaming her spoon for being so fat.


GfS

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 Dec 14 - 12:50 AM

No, not even close, Gust. As usual.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Dec 14 - 08:55 PM

"Any white person who robbed a store, assaulted the clerk, slugged a cop, tried to take his gun, then ran away, and then turned back and charged the cop would have been shot repeatedly until he fell and stopped moving."

Not in the country I live in. Even assuming those are the actual facts of the case, which is disputed, and appear to rest primarily on the assertions of Mr Wilson.

If American cops killed unarmed civilians on an equal opportunities basis that would in some ways be a step forward. But not all that much forward.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: wysiwyg
Date: 13 Dec 14 - 11:24 AM

GOOD NEWS

Police oversight bill headed to Obama:

http://thehill.com/blogs/floor-action/senate/226732-senate-sends-police-oversight-bill-to-obama

~S~
 

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Dec 14 - 11:30 AM

McGrath, thank you for reminding us that England has strict gun control laws, so that policeman have nothing more dangerous to deal with than drunken football fans. Now, do you have anything to say relevant to the topic of this thread?

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 13 Dec 14 - 11:49 AM

Here, I'll repeat myself, as to addressing the foolishness of the knee-jerk re-actions, which you were supposed to be, by design, having!

Oh goodie...we're federalizing our police......idiots!

GfS

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Dec 14 - 03:45 PM

NOT "federalizing!" Government oversight and investigation of local police forces whenever someone in police custody dies.

That's not the same as "federalization."

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: GUEST,sawzaw
Date: 14 Dec 14 - 08:20 AM

What do we want? Dead cops! When do we want it? Now!

Campbell beat up an armed guard outside the store and stole his gun. While he was waiting for police to arrive, Campbell apologized to a woman in the store for his conduct, but explained that she should watch the news because he was going to be famous.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: wysiwyg
Date: 14 Dec 14 - 10:30 AM

Stephon Watson: "He was autistic and had a kitchen knife in his hand. Instead of trying to disarm him police shot him and killed him dead. The officer had a cut
on his arm and feared for his life so ach officer shot one time. One
bullet hit the leg and the other in the boy's head..

~S~

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Dec 14 - 11:08 AM

"Federalizing"- please.

Anybody remember Reconstruction and the 1950's/60's when the Federal Gov't had to intervene to protect constitutional rights because the States couldn't be bothered to do it?

Its just deja vu all over again.

The U.S. sure has come a long way from 1875, hasn't it?.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: wysiwyg
Date: 14 Dec 14 - 02:51 PM

Perhaps we can agree to keep this thread focused on Black lives lost and troll/react elsewhere.....

People would be more than welcome to look up and post the story for any of the many lives now listed upthread, for example. AFAIK that resource has not been compiled anywhere else online.

~S~

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Dec 14 - 04:32 PM

If that's directed at me, Susan, I'll be more than happy to step out. Sorry to bring up the long history of institutionalized racism in the U.S. which is obviopusly very much with us toady.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Dec 14 - 05:15 PM

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/crime-courts/third-ohio-man-wrongly-accused-1975-murder-exonerated-n264821

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 15 Dec 14 - 01:09 PM

Greg F.
"Federalizing"- please"

Yes!..They start with giving 'grants' to local police departments, then dictate to them, as to what to 'enforce'...or lose the grants...THEN...make a bigger burden on them by not enforcing THEIR jurisdiction..like enforcing our borders!!!...Which to distract people from, they blow up the racial issues!!!

"Anybody remember Reconstruction and the 1950's/60's when the Federal Gov't had to intervene to protect constitutional rights because the States couldn't be bothered to do it?"

Nonsense! They are moving us into a global government, run by the bankers..not 'by the people'!!.....Get used to it....and BTW, the political parties are owned lock stock and barrel by the bankers, and multinational corporate heads. Our 'votes' don't mean shit...if they did, they'd take that away, too!!~~~ (Apologies to Mark Twain, for the paraphrase).

GfS


An, P.S......Don't you just love it when WHITE Anglos, who play mostly WHITE folk music, with their WHITE friends, converse with other only WHITE 'so-called liberal' WHITE folk singers, about the bias against blacks???...and go so far as blaming ALL white cops for being ready to shoot 'innocent' black people, for no reason...other than being black???!!!
Oh my!...such true 'concern'.....it worked during the '60's, when there were real issues with segregation....now instead of 'growing up', the whiners just figure that white on black shootings is equal to the REAL struggle of blacks....and ignore the far greater number of black on black homicides!!!!!!!

Greg F: "The U.S. sure has come a long way from 1875, hasn't it?."

Can't say as much for the political hack, nut-jobs....keep up!

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: wysiwyg
Date: 15 Dec 14 - 01:10 PM

Greg F, it was a general comment suggesting I could use a hand with the main thrust of the thread I started, as it has grown into an ever-growing necrology/memorial of stories about precious lives lost.

RB, thanks so much.

~S~

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 16 Dec 14 - 10:38 AM

Just to keep things balanced

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: wysiwyg
Date: 16 Dec 14 - 02:40 PM

Rahere, our parallel charge in the US would be 'depraved indifference.' I like your better. It seems much more provable.

.....

Dunno if I already posted this:
http://gawker.com/unarmed-people-of-color-killed-by-police-1999-2014-1666672349

~S~

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 16 Dec 14 - 05:58 PM

I've now heard the report of the hearing: the Jury was not told that racist text messages were found on the cellphones of two of the accused, Terence Hughes and Stuart Tribelnig, and that Hughes subsequently to the death posted racially offensive photographs on Facebook. As the BBC report says, given the Inquest jury returned a verdict of unlawful killing, and the CPS is not willing to prosecute their employers G4S, then who exactly is responsible for the death? My own comment is that this is within a hair's breadth of a similar death at Zaventem airport in Brussels some ten years ago or more, where the person being deported was smothered with a pillow and the guards, similarly orientated, took an equally long time to discover they had killed their charge. Surely in the light of that, G4S should not have had procedures in place which caused this, procedures which have since been radically overhauled.
When a former neighbour of mine in Brussels, fallen on hard times by his own stupidity and the avarice of a certain religieuse, took up with the Russian mafia, driving a van with a kidnapped German businessman in the back, who died because he was trussed up so tightly he could not breathe, he was sent down for murder. I don't see the difference here, other than that the death was not in the pursuit of a crime, a difference taken into account in the charge of Manslaughter.
From a legal point of view, I hope the Prosecution appeals (we have the right in the UK where such errors in Law have been made): there are three tests for the different degrees of murder-manslaughter, motive, means and opportunity. The last two were there, they got off by claiming they had no motive and never heard their prisoner complaining, although others did. The evidence that the Judge suppressed bears on motive: they had a duty of care, and motive not to attend to it diligently, and that caused the death. I seriously wonder about the competence of some UK Lawyers...

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Dec 14 - 08:02 PM

GfS:   "… the political parties are owned lock stock and barrel by the bankers, and multinational corporate heads. Our 'votes' don't mean shit...if they did, they'd take that away, too!!~~~"

A handy excuse for people with no more intelligence and ambition than Goofus not to bother to study the issues, learn what is really going on, and summon up enough ambition and energy to go and vote.

I remember my father receiving unsolicited stuff in the mail back in the Forties and Fifties spewing the same "international conspiracy" stuff that Goofus is regurgitating now (only written in better English). It wound up in the trash. And I get the same stuff (unsolicited) every morning in my e-mail. After a quick glance, it gets zapped. I've seen it all many times before.

By saying, essentially, that "the fix is in" and it doesn't matter who you vote for, he's claim to be a pundit and above it all. But he's just making excuses for not bothering.

Stick with it Goofus. It is probably best that people like you don't bother to vote. Leave it to those of us who care—and who are willing to take the time, the effort, and the responsibility.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Dec 14 - 03:20 AM

http://countercurrentnews.com/2014/12/cop-handcuffs-and-beats-african-american-military-police-officer/

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Sawzaw
Date: 17 Dec 14 - 10:03 AM

This is a racist statement:

"Perhaps we can agree to keep this thread focused on Black lives lost and troll/react elsewhere....." Isn't focusing on one race racist?

This statement is also racist:

"SoreJaw is, and always has been, brain-damaged white trash. Ignore it."

I have been very careful not to disparage anyone personally and not to concentrate on race. Yet others seem to believe something can be accomplished buy making racist remarks and using ad hominem logical fallacy to discredit others and nullify the facts they present.

These racist remarks only justify, support and perpetuate racism.

Also efforts to silence any other point of view no matter how polite, logical or factual is a form of fascism where no opposing views areallowed.

Teacher who told youth "You are nothing but white trash" is found guilty of racial hatred

Racism has existed throughout human history. It may be defined as the hatred of one person by another -- or the belief that another person is less than human -- because of skin color, language, customs, place of birth or any factor that supposedly reveals the basic nature of that person.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Dec 14 - 11:16 AM

SoreJaw, try looking up the definition of "race" and of "racist".

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 17 Dec 14 - 12:24 PM

Don the Foaming Froth: "A handy excuse for people with no more intelligence and ambition than Goofus not to bother to study the issues, learn what is really going on, and summon up enough ambition and energy to go and vote.
I remember my father receiving unsolicited stuff in the mail back in the Forties and Fifties spewing the same "international conspiracy" stuff that Goofus is regurgitating now (only written in better English). It wound up in the trash. And I get the same stuff (unsolicited) every morning in my e-mail. After a quick glance, it gets zapped. I've seen it all many times before."

Gosh wasn't remembering your father sorta cool, to be able to relate to in your life??..Too bad you wouldn't return the favor!..
Too busy being self absorbed!

GfS

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: wysiwyg
Date: 17 Dec 14 - 12:27 PM

Sawzaw,

The people whose work record reflect the ability to create actual, systemic CHANGE, are usually practicing general agreement with the following discussion of definitions. Although I do not endorse the writer's personal speaking style, he does actually know what he is talking about when it comes to the racism in the USA, which is the perspective from which I am writing.

============================================================

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS – AND THEIR ANSWERS

1. How do you define racism?

As with other "isms" (like capitalism, communism, etc.), racism is both an ideology and a system. As such, I define it in two ways.

As an ideology, racism is the belief that population groups, defined as distinct "races," generally possess traits, characteristics or abilities, which distinguish them as either superior or inferior to other groups in certain ways. In short, racism is the belief that a particular race is (or certain races are) superior or inferior to another race or races.

As a system, racism is an institutional arrangement, maintained by policies, practices and procedures — both formal and informal — in which some persons typically have more or less opportunity than others, and in which such persons receive better or worse treatment than others, because of their respective racial identities. Additionally, institutional racism involves denying persons opportunities, rewards, or various benefits on the basis of race, to which those individuals are otherwise entitled. In short, racism is a system of inequality, based on race.

4. Do you think people of color can be racist against whites?

At the ideological level, anyone can be racist because anyone can endorse the kinds of thinking that qualifies as racism, as defined above.

At the systemic level, people of color can be racist in theory, but typically not in practice, and certainly not very effectively. Although a person of color in an authority position can discriminate against a white person, this kind of thing rarely happens because, a) such persons are still statistically rare relative to whites in authority, b) in virtually all cases, there are authorities above those people of color who are white, and who would not stand for such actions, and c) even in cases where a person of color sits atop a power structure (as with President Obama), he is not truly free to do anything to oppress or marginalize white people (even were he so inclined), given his own need to attract white support in order to win election or pass any of his policy agenda. Ultimately, there are no institutional structures in the U.S. in which people of color exercise final and controlling authority: not in the school systems, labor market, justice system, housing markets, financial markets, or media. As such, the ability of black and brown folks to oppress white people simply does not exist.

Having said that, it is certainly true that in other [than US] countries, people of color could have power sufficient to discriminate against others, including whites. Although even anti-white bias in those places is somewhat limited by the reality of global economics and the desire for good relations with the West, it is possible for persons of color in those places to mistreat whites individually and, occasionally, collectively. But it is absurd to believe that anti-white racism, practiced by people of color, remotely equates as a social problem to white racism against people of color. While all racism is equally objectionable morally and ethically, they are not practically equivalent by a long shot.
============================================================

Now, I'm not sure which kind of racism you're trying to point out, sawzaw, but I freely acknowledge that like all US whites since the 'founding' of the country as a British colony-- which brought a well-established system of class oppression and genocide to these shores-- I'm as ideologically racist, by conditioning, as the next white person. I agree with this excerpt from the above link:

3. Do you think all whites are racist?

I believe that all people (white or of color) raised in a society where racism has been (and still is) so prevalent, will have internalized various elements of racist thinking: certain beliefs, stereotypes, assumptions, and judgments about others and themselves. So in countries where beliefs in European/white superiority and domination have been historically embedded, it is likely that everyone in such places will have ingested some of that conditioning. I think all whites — as the dominant group in the U.S. — have been conditioned to accept white predominance in the social, political and economic system, and to believe that white predominance is a preferable arrangement for the society in which they live, the neighborhoods in which they live, the places where they work, etc.

However, this doesn't mean that all whites, having been conditioned in that way, are committed to the maintenance of white supremacy. One can challenge one's conditioning. One can be counter-conditioned and taught to believe in equality, and to commit oneself to its achievement. These things take work — and they can never completely eradicate all of the conditioning to which one has been subjected — but they are possible.

In other words, we can be racist by conditioning, antiracist by choice. That racism is part of who we are does not mean that it's all of who we are, or that it must be the controlling or dominant part of who we are. By the same token, just because we choose to be antiracist, does not mean that we no longer carry around some of the racism with which we were raised, or to which we were and are exposed.
============================================================

Nonetheless, in my own modest way I have been working in the field of AntiRacism, with some success in seeing change to local institutions with which I have been involved, since..... 1990. So I've gotten pretty good at navigating what is and is not racist, according to folks who know me well and are not focused on blowing smoke up my ass or tearing down the work.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Dec 14 - 12:49 PM

Susan - He comes over to me (in the UK) as a really nasty person.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 17 Dec 14 - 12:56 PM

Don Froth: "I remember my father receiving unsolicited stuff in the mail back in the Forties and Fifties spewing the same "international conspiracy" stuff that Goofus is regurgitating now (only written in better English). It wound up in the trash. And I get the same stuff (unsolicited) every morning in my e-mail. After a quick glance, it gets zapped. I've seen it all many times before."

Would you then say that Fascism was defeated in WWII???...and all Fascists are done 'conspiring'????????????

Maybe your stubborn, empty-headed brain-lock is genetic!!...after all, you seem to want to claim other mental/emotional disorders are.

So, according to you, Fascism is, or was not ever a 'conspiracy'...and you became a wannabe activist, for opposing....ummm...what???

GfS

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: wysiwyg
Date: 17 Dec 14 - 01:34 PM

So many segments of white America are coming forward these days. The mostly-white Jews for Racial Justice publicized this Channukah activism:

ChanukahAction: A Jewish Day of Action to End Police Violence
http://chanukahaction.org/

What is so great about this coalition-swell is that it's coming from the group that has had a disproportionately huge amount of the power in the US. It's as big a change as the toppling of the Berlin Wall. No thinking person these days denies that whites have had Privilege (and thus power) for hundreds of years. That power has been building silently for a long time, but now we hear those voices and see those faces moving for justice for ALL.

~S~

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Dec 14 - 01:36 PM

Sorry, Goofball, I can't talk to you right now. My son is here, visiting over Christmas.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: GUEST,sawzaw
Date: 17 Dec 14 - 01:55 PM

Why does racism persist? I believe it is perpetuated by people that make racist statements. Making ugly personal attacks only perpetuates racism.

Making lists of what people of a certain race need to do is racist. If it is good for one race why not for the other races? All men are created equal and therefore all need to do the good things on the list. Separating out which race needs to do what indicates that they are different.

The first thing on the list is to stop attacking each other. Probably the only thing that needs to be on the list.

People seem to think I am upset or unhappy in some way and make up names to reflect it. I am not. It is the people attacking each other here that are upset and unhappy about something.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Dec 14 - 02:35 PM

Persist? Most racism in the UK has evolved since the 1950's. Before that most of the population had never met anyone 'of colour'. It would happen again if one group found a racial tag for a group which it resented in some way.

Which is why I find the person that W y s i w y G ! quoted mapping a myopic US view of racism onto the rest of the world offensive.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: GUEST,sawzaw
Date: 17 Dec 14 - 02:57 PM

How does this statement help to end racism?

"Instead of slamming the police, I prefer a Kenny Fort approach. Every time an unarmed black man is killed, you kill a decorated white officer, on his door step in front of his family." Aaron Hodges

Whom is the "you" he was referring to?

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: wysiwyg
Date: 17 Dec 14 - 03:00 PM

Why does racism persist?

Sawzaw, It persists because it usually operates below the level of conscious thought, because the rank and file who benefit from it in small ways daily remain silent about it, and because an entire system of money requires it to stay in business as structured (with only a few majorly profiting from it).

Guest, I'm so pleased that Racism is dead in the UK! I didn't know you'd finally gotten rid of your BNP.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Dec 14 - 03:12 PM

@W y s i w y G ! I never said it was dead. My meaning was that it had built due to particular social circumstances and could do so again, rather than being due to people having racism as some sort of cultural inheritance.

BNP ? There you are see, things change, you are out of date already, there are others who would not say no to the racist vote.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: GUEST,Sawzaw
Date: 17 Dec 14 - 03:24 PM

This statement is absurd:

"But it is absurd to believe that anti-white racism, practiced by people of color, remotely equates as a social problem to white racism against people of color. While all racism is equally objectionable morally and ethically, they are not practically equivalent by a long shot."

This statement indicates that people of one race are prone to act differently from people of another race and that they are created different. Racism by any race is still racism unless all men are not created equal. The statement contradicts itself.

Perhaps you are subconsciously thinking one race may be inferior in their capabilities and need to be sheltered from another race.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Dec 14 - 04:32 PM

Fuck do you not understand racism? ONLY ONE SET OF PEOPLE THROUGHOUT HISTORY HAVE BEEN DEEMED TO BE SLAVES BECAUSE OF THEIR SKIN COLOUR. They are still adversely treated as a result.

There is another set of people who have been since about 600BC treated less favourably by reason of their membership of that set - but by and large they seem to have transcended that treatment and by and large are no longer adversely treated and in many cases are economically successful.

Racism can only be experienced if you are part of a disadvantaged set. To speak of racism against people with white privilege is moronic.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Dec 14 - 06:16 PM

Is that bit in capitals correct ? Across the whole globe ? Or don't different shades of brown or pink count ?

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: wysiwyg
Date: 17 Dec 14 - 06:55 PM

Many people think that slavery is slavery. In fact there are many g
forms of slavery. While they share in common that one group profits from the free, enforced labor of another group, the US built CHATTEL slavery deeply into abd throughout its legal system, economy, culture, education system.... etcetc into all aspects of life.

A very good documentary contains a lengthy passage about these differences and about the role Africans played in the slave trade: 500 Years Later, http://www.500yearslater.com/

Slavery itself (and its many legacies), as practiced over time in its many forms, is far more complex than the casual bandying about of one single word. Using that word simplistically, from a view based on our limited understanding of it from today's cultural mindsets, just doesn't have much relationship to reality.

Those mindsets have grown with steady infusions of half-truths and misdirections. There is a system defending itself from view. White people are conditioned to divide up against one another through these reactive, accusatory arguments when really, if we instead simply allowed our hearts to feel all the horror of what we're discussing here, we'd band together to stop it.

Do we all want to stop it?

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: wysiwyg
Date: 17 Dec 14 - 07:13 PM

Hear Mudcat's own Dan Schatz say it so much better than I can:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rev-dan-schatz/on-being-asked-to-change-_b_6326614.html?utm_hp_ref=religion

~S~

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Dec 14 - 07:42 PM

"McGrath, thank you for reminding us that England has strict gun control laws, so that policeman have nothing more dangerous to deal with than drunken football fans. Now, do you have anything to say relevant to the topic of this thread?"

Another US dumbhead who doesn't realise that our police also face gang members with illegal guns.

We work very hard to ensure that our cops operate without fear or favour and treat all citizens equally. It doesn't always happen, but at least, our black youth face nothing more damaging than a "Stop and Search"!!

Our cops dont't f**cking SHOOT 'em!

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 17 Dec 14 - 08:18 PM

When, in areas with a a predominantly white police force, unarmed black males are killed by officers 21 times as often as white males, it is difficult to see how anybody BUT a racist can seek to justify such situations.

Sawzaw should look at some of the links posted on this thread and see if he feels that condemnation of officers concerned is racism, as he claims!

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Dec 14 - 08:43 PM

Yes, the bit in capitals is correct. As far as I know.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Dec 14 - 08:48 PM

And here's a linky for the Dan Schatz piece.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rev-dan-schatz/on-being-asked-to-change-_b_6326614.html?utm_hp_ref=religion

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: wysiwyg
Date: 17 Dec 14 - 09:06 PM

(Thanks, RB.)

~S~

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 17 Dec 14 - 09:10 PM

"An, P.S......Don't you just love it when WHITE Anglos, who play mostly WHITE folk music, with their WHITE friends, converse with other only WHITE 'so-called liberal' WHITE folk singers, about the bias against blacks???"

And now you've proved what a pig ignorant racist you really are Goofus!

In the UK, us white Anglos, sing songs of all sorts (including from your as yet to be civilised domain), with our White, Black, Brown, Asian, Eastern European and just about all other nationalities friends!

Only in your tiny shriveled excuse for a narrow mind do we think in terms of WHITE music.

We leave that sort of bigotry to YOU and your ilk!

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Dec 14 - 10:43 PM

quote: "Another US dumbhead who doesn't realise that our police also face gang members with illegal guns."

So how many of your police were killed in the line of duty last year?

Here in the U.S. that number was 100. That's the lowest it's been since 1944. The highest was 280, in 1974.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 17 Dec 14 - 11:13 PM

Troubadour: "In the UK, us white Anglos, sing songs of all sorts (including from your as yet to be civilised domain), with our White, Black, Brown, Asian, Eastern European and just about all other nationalities friends!"

Trouby-Babes, I was not referring to the UK, which is a lot different than here.......Over here, we have these 'Oh so concerned' bullshit artists', pretending to to champion the cause of African Americans.....by helping to keep them down...so that they, can go on pretending to give a damn, therefore deluding themselves as being useful!!!...True story..

..and BTW, the first musical group I was in, was 5 black singers(one lead, four back-up), a white drummer, and a white guitarists(me) and a white bass player....and NOBODY gave a shit about skin color...but we DID CARE about the music....we did a lot of Motown stuff...I was 16-17....and nobody was shot by any cops!!!.....and we all got along.
That being said, I grew up in L.A., which did not have quite the same racial oppression, as in the South..(Bobert Country).

Over here..and even IN here(Mudcat Forum), you have white 'folkies' who have probably never even had a black in their audiences(assuming that some of them even had audiences), nor in their group, stage, or even neighborhoods...pretending to give a shit...it's only political posturing.....here, you think I'm making this up???....Here's someone else's musical take on it, from the early '60's, before 'liberalism' was co-opted by the Democrat Party: From a REAL political protester, and social commentator ...... ....AND.... ..a more contemporary take on it.... READ his comments below the video!!!..........I'm not alone!

GfS

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Dec 14 - 03:43 AM

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/investigations/exonerated-after-execution-judge-tosses-teens-murder-conviction-n270176


Goofball - you have heard the words "ally" and "support", and "justice" haven't you?

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: GUEST,sawzaw
Date: 18 Dec 14 - 08:02 AM

"see if he feels that condemnation of officers concerned is racism, as he claims!"

I have claimed no such thing. This is projecting. Focusing on one race is racisim. Deaths of people of all races at the hands of police officers of all races must be considered. To filter out every death that does not fit the "screed" is cherry picking and it does not lead to justice.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Dec 14 - 10:09 AM

Focusing on one race is racisim.

Not in this universe, SoreJaw

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: wysiwyg
Date: 18 Dec 14 - 12:05 PM

NEXT STEPS?

A lot of the off-topic discussion here has been useful, tho I must admit there were moments I'd have loved an edit button.

I'm wondering though if a permathread to list/explore the lost Black lives would be of interest, to enough of the positive contributors to this thread, to justify the work of maintaining one.

Before I look further into that, I'd love to see how many of you might care to have one; Mudcat has often been bashed for not having much Black participation and/or for being overall racist (which I have always disagreed with). But maybe a non-music permathread is not something wanted.

AFAIK, there is no one resource anywhere yet, on the stories and real lives of the Black human beings killed in police custody. The NAACP has started lists-- and I have seen a few of those that included links for more info for the more recent news-- but IMO it's worth someone's time to look further back... I suspect the leadership of the NAACP (of which I am a mere member) has more urgent business, so I would like to do it.

Thoughts?


~Susan

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 18 Dec 14 - 01:10 PM

"Perhaps we can agree to keep this thread focused on Black lives lost and troll/react elsewhere....." Isn't focusing on one race racist?

This statement is also racist:" --Sawzaw!

I suppose that it is racist, in your view, to suggest that we stick to the topic of the thread, which is:-

THE DISPROPORTIONATE NUMBER OF YOUNG UNARMED BLACK MEN KILLED BY MAINLY WHITE COPS!

Just to set you on the right track, in case you hadn't noticed the plethora of links proving the truth of that topic.

Take your fingers out of your ears, stop chanting "LA-LA-LA!" and look at the links, particularly the ones posted by Susan and Richard, which show only too clearly the scope and nature of this crime.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Dec 14 - 01:16 PM

"I'm wondering though if a permathread to list/explore the lost Black lives would be of interest"

If the opinions of a UK outsider don't too deeply offend GfS and SoreJaw, I think that such a permathread would be a very good idea, as well as being a kind of "Digital Tradition of the Oppressed", accessible to students of philosophy, Morals and Ethics!

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 18 Dec 14 - 01:17 PM

That last guest is me.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: wysiwyg
Date: 18 Dec 14 - 05:02 PM

Thanks, Troubador. Just curious, do you have a membership? Are you on FB? (Can you get word to me offthread?)

The scope widens again. (A permathread would have to be very carefully titled, such as "Black Lives Lost in Police Actions," becausse:

Death of Aiyana Jones
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Born         Aiyana Mo'Nay Stanley Jones
July 20, 2002
Detroit, Michigan, U.S.
Died         May 16, 2010 (aged 7)
Detroit, Michigan, U.S.
Cause of death
        Gunshot
Resting place
        Trinity Cemetery
5210 Mount Elliott Street
Detroit, Michigan 48211
Nationality         American
Other names         Aiyana Stanley-Jones
Ethnicity         African American
Citizenship         United States
Known for         shot in police raid
Parents         Charles Jones (father) Dominika Stanley (mother)

Aiyana Mo'Nay Stanley Jones (July 20, 2002 – May 16, 2010), was a seven-year-old girl from the east side of Detroit, Michigan who was shot and killed during a raid conducted by the Detroit Police Department's Special Response Team on May 16, 2010.[3] Her death drew national media attention[4] and led U.S. Representative John Conyers to ask U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder for a federal investigation into the incident.

Officer Joseph Weekley was charged in connection with Jones' death. In October 2011, Weekley was charged with involuntary manslaughter and reckless endangerment with a gun. Weekley's first trial ended in a mistrial in June 2013.

Weekley's retrial began in September 2014. On October 3, the judge dismissed the involuntary manslaughter charge against Weekley, leaving him on trial for only one charge: recklessly discharging a firearm.

On October 10, the second trial ended in an another mistrial.

Photo of an angel the raiding police never thought to worry about before shooting in an occupied building:

MONAY JONES IN LIFE

~Susan

Subject: RE: Black Lives Lost in Police Actions (renamed)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 18 Dec 14 - 08:04 PM

I like the name change on the thread. It will probably also have to apply to other uniformed authorities' actions-- for example, I heard recently that security guards whose records should prohibit them from carrying weapons are hired to do just that-- the security firms don't always do their due diligence in checking them out. The one I heard about had a pretty nasty temper vulnerable to racist conditioning, as much as armed police are infected with the same poison the rest of the US struggles with.

I'm not LOOKING for these incidents BTW, but if a trusted source points me to an incident I will list its victim.

~S~

Subject: RE: Black Lives Lost in Police Actions (renamed)
From: GUEST,Sawzaw
Date: 19 Dec 14 - 09:41 AM

The thread focuses on one race and is therefore racist.

I am told:"I suppose that it is racist, in your view, to suggest that we stick to the topic of the thread, which is:-
THE DISPROPORTIONATE NUMBER OF YOUNG UNARMED BLACK MEN KILLED BY MAINLY WHITE COPS!"


Is this the only unjust manner in which unnamed b***k men are killed? How about women? how about children? How about the race of the person doing the "killing" How about the circumstances?

Subject: RE: Black Lives Lost in Police Actions (renamed)
From: Sawzaw
Date: 19 Dec 14 - 10:05 AM

Disproportionate to what?

Is this the only unjust manner in which unnamed b***k men are killed? How about women? how about children? How about the other races? How about the person doing the "killing"? How about the circumstances?

Why is anyone taking up the issue of the adult males one race being "killed" by another race while unarmed?

If it is a humanitarian issue it would objectively encompass all deaths under all circumstances and it would not label them "killings". Then it would focus on the largest preventable cause in order to find a solution. Then focus on the next.

Vicious personal attacks about differences do not solve anything. They make matters worse.

Subject: RE: Black Lives Lost in Police Actions (renamed)
From: Sawzaw
Date: 19 Dec 14 - 10:12 AM

PS: Are the ever any lives saved by Police actions? Do they deserve any credit for that?

Subject: RE: Black Lives Lost in Police Actions (renamed)
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Dec 14 - 10:24 AM

Don't like new title, agree with this:

The real failing is that we allow the headline of the meme being "Another black man shot by cop" rather than "Another man shot by a racist cop". It's not the colour which matters, but the racism, and collecting your data according to the wrong criterion lets those really responsible off the hook. From: GUEST,Rahere Date: 06 Dec 14 - 07:43 PM

Subject: RE: Black Lives Lost in Police Actions (renamed)
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Dec 14 - 10:43 AM

This focus on police action is just using the police as scapegoats for the racism of our society as a whole. The far larger number of young black men killed by other young black men is just as much a symptom of that racism. What we need to address is the social structure that places so many young black men in a position where their only options so often lead to a violent end.

Subject: RE: Black Lives Lost in Police Actions (renamed)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 19 Dec 14 - 01:59 PM

Dear Critizers,

I was asking for thought about a possible permathread title, and I am listening.

In THIS thread, the title is what it is, and if anyone wants a different thread, of course you are free to simply start one and garner as much conversation as wants to respond to it.

Part of the mechanism of Racism is the way whites can so easily be moved into discord over Racism itself. I prefer we not fall into that reactive trap.


Elsewhere upthread, I agree with:

The far larger number of young black men killed by other young black men is just as much a symptom of that racism. What we need to address is the social structure that places so many young black men in a position where their only options so often lead to a violent end.

I salute others who are engaged in that foundation-aimed work. For a time, I was, myself. Now, my own gifts and opportunities to contribute to that work (and what has followed on the heels since many undertook it) have led me recently to work under Black leadership in the US.

That Black leadership comes from across the wide spectrum of Black thought, and is asking for something specific in a continuum of action-- to meet the particular place US culture is at right now:

They're asking us to know the stories they have been living.

I'm interested in all positive thought about the overall work, but this thread need not be a place to argue priorities. If yer doing that work in your own sphere, goodonya. I'd love to hear good-news stories about all the work people in this thread are doing! It would sure give us all a more accurate context from which to try to hear our differing perspectives.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Black Lives Lost in Police Actions (renamed)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Dec 14 - 02:59 PM

"The far larger number of young black men killed by other young black men is just as much a symptom of that racism"

.,,.

How so? Not clear to me at all.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: Black Lives Lost in Police Actions (renamed)
From: Sawzaw
Date: 19 Dec 14 - 09:22 PM

"The notion that white cops are out there just killing black people -- that's ridiculous. That's just flat-out ridiculous. I challenge any black person to try to make that point. Cops are actually awesome. They are the only thing in the ghetto between this place being the wild, wild west. So this notion that cops are out there just killing black men is ridiculous and I hate that narrative coming out of this entire situation.We've always had a racial issue in this country and the biggest problem with it is we never discuss race until something bad happens. We never have meaningful dialogue over a cold beer when things are going good. When something bad happens, everybody has a tribe mentality. Everybody wants to protect their own tribe, whether they're right or wrong. There's a reason why police racially profile the black community. We as black people, we got a lot of crooks. We can't just wait until something like this happens. We have to look at ourselves in the mirror. There's a reason they racially profile us at times. Sometimes it's wrong, sometimes it's right. To act like we hold no responsibility for some of this stuff is disingenuous."

Sometimes I do not give a source but I do not think up horrible things and claim someone said it. The reason I do not name a source is because people should be curious enough to search for the source after they read it.

Some people base the validity of what someone said first on who said it rather than analyzing what they said. Then they go no further. Concluding "if so and so said it it is a lie" or "if so and so said it, it is automatically the truth" Each person needs to have the ability to analyze statements for them self rather than rely on someone else to do their thinking for them.

Getting back to who said what, the most hated or dumbest person in the world that we disagree with might actually speak the truth at any time. Conversely the most beloved, wisest person in the world that we always agree with can be totally wrong on occasion. Every single thing you hear or read or see needs to be analyzed separately from who said it.

Think for yourself and reject "tribe mentality"

Subject: RE: Black Lives Lost in Police Actions (renamed)
From: Sawzaw
Date: 19 Dec 14 - 09:37 PM

"an arsehole who tries to use their deaths to justify a bunch of gung ho killers in uniform, setting out to even the score by killing black people indiscriminately"

Who would that arsehole be?

What did the arsehole say that indicates any of the things you accuse him of?

You make specious characterizations of what you imagine he meant and try to turn it into fact.
-----------------------------------
Instructions on what others should do or think in the form of personal ad hominem attack. A bigoted racial slur:

"SoreJaw is, and always has been, brain-damaged white trash. Ignore it."

Subject: RE: Black Lives Lost in Police Actions (renamed)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 19 Dec 14 - 10:04 PM

~M~,

Re: "The far larger number of young black men killed by other young black men is just as much a symptom of that racism"

.,,.

How so? Not clear to me at all.

≈M≈

Black on Black crime-- where it's disproportionately higher than white on white crime-- is largely a function of internalized oppression. You're UK, right? US stereotypes about Blacks are internalized by Blacks, which is part of internalized oppression.

MORE


However, Black on Black crime is not an issue of citizens of all colors, cultures, income level, and social status paying people in uniforms via tax dollars-- to protect the people they are killing.

Black on Black crime would be a separate topic from this thread.

==============

RIJ Ms. Rekia Boyd, age 22, March 22, 2012, an innocent bystander killed when an off-duty cop shot and killed a "dangerous person wielding a gun" nearby-- which turned out to be a cellphone.

When Chicago Police Detective Dante Servin heads to court next January for the fatal shooting of Rekia Boyd, a 22-year-old unarmed black woman, he will be the first CPD officer in more than 17 years to be tried for a shooting death.

Servin appeared Wednesday in a Cook County court, where his case was delayed until Jan. 21, 2015 -- more than a year after his indictment on charges of involuntary manslaughter, reckless discharge of a firearm and reckless conduct in connection with Boyd's death. Earlier this year, the city paid Boyd's family a $4.5 million wrongful death settlement. MORE

===================

RIJ Joseph Gould. In July 1995, Joseph Gould, a black 36-year-old homeless Chicago newspaper vendor, was shot and killed by Gregory Becker, a white, off-duty Chicago police officer. Becker served four years in jail after a jury found him guilty of involuntary manslaughter and armed violence in 1997, though an Illinois appellate court later overturned the conviction, claiming the two charges were inconsistent.

That was the last time (before Rekia Boyd's death) that a Chicago police officer was tried over a shooting. Until the new bill before Obama, police departments were not required by law to share these statistics with the DOJ or anyone else. MORE

==================

~Susan

Subject: RE: Black Lives Lost in Police Actions (renamed)
From: GUEST,sawzaw
Date: 20 Dec 14 - 06:25 AM

Could this sort of thing be part of the problem?
Sorry for tho language.

Do Or Die – Kill Or Be Killed Lyrics (partial)

I'ma take a life quick as I take a breath
And I ain't excepting this bullshit
I'm livin just like I ain't excepting death
Preconception left you son-of-bitch you stuck
Hit you with this thang - on the tock with a name - cause a killa just buck
Never wire me up - the center of yo essence past to file me up
It a be plenty mo' crimes ceases and pourin me swigs
A nigga just got fuck up
Visualize a fly gettin smashed by a battle rag
Put it in da frame Nigeroe get the picture who I am
(Who it is)
Zero muthafukin zero
Cooler than that wind when you hit that corner bitch
So don't fuck with me hoe - cause we know
How drama calculate - testing out niggaz fate
Keep yo head straight - avoiding that dead weight - shit up out the gate
I often feel when shit get drastic
I'ma make a motherfucka notice my production of these closed caskets
Fucked up get blasted - since preschool on some bad shit
Your first and last pick - its kill or be killed on you bastard

Subject: RE: Black Lives Lost in Police Actions (renamed)
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Dec 14 - 09:59 AM

Take your garbage elsewhere, eh Slack-Jaw?

Subject: RE: Black Lives Lost in Police Actions (renamed)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 20 Dec 14 - 11:28 AM

Could this sort of thing be part of the problem?

It is a perfect illustration of US Black internalized oppression, but that you posted it without removing the offensive language is part of another problem, sawzaw.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Black Lives Lost in Police Actions (renamed)
From: Mrrzy
Date: 20 Dec 14 - 12:06 PM

Who renamed this thread so nambypambily? They aren't lives LOST - they are lives TAKEN. They are DEATHS. They are not "losses" as if it were a game, or as if we didn't know what happened to them. Shame, Mudcat, shame.
And "Police action" pah! That's what we called the Korean WAR and it was a terrible thing to say then too! Whoever remaned this is whitewashing the fact that police are SHOOTING people TO DEATH. Seriously, what has happened to this forum?

Subject: RE: USA, Black Lives Lost in Police Actions (renamed)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 20 Dec 14 - 02:40 PM

Mrr, since I am the OP, any complaints about this thread properly come to me, so I will answer yours. I proposed the retitle to clarify the direction for this thread, and a Mudcat mod made the requested change(s). If you know a better way to say what I said PLUS what you said, and fit it into a thread list, I'm listening.

You are free, as you know, to be the OP of any thread titled however YOU want to title YOURS.

Regarding your reactive rant:
Who renamed this thread so nambypambily? They aren't lives LOST - they are lives TAKEN. They are DEATHS. They are not "losses" as if it were a game, or as if we didn't know what happened to them. Shame, Mudcat, shame.
And "Police action" pah! That's what we called the Korean WAR and it was a terrible thing to say then too! Whoever remaned this is whitewashing the fact that police are SHOOTING people TO DEATH. Seriously, what has happened to this forum?


The point of any memorial is not to scream for the justice, but to remember the lives of the people lost. One goal in this thread (which you have apparently not read by merely reacted to) is taking the view of the whole person these victimized people were, not just the death images paraded through the media.

What has happened to this forum is that reactivity has lost us many good members. (I would remind people of those members who recently died or nearly died, who first stopped posting here on an active basis.)

IMO, there is no shame here, except maybe reactivity as a replacement for actual thought after mature reflection.

Please, take a breath, read my posts in this thread, and then contribute positively.

~Susan
(Who still can't get your ill considered Anne Frank joke out of my head.)

Subject: RE: USA, Black Lives Lost in Police Actions (renamed)
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Dec 14 - 09:24 PM

Most of the killing of young black men is by gang warfare. Their problems with the police are largely due to gang culture also.

But the fact that so many black youths choose gang life is a sign of a racist society. They choose gang life because unequal educational and employment opportunity leaves them with little hope for a better option.

Society should correct that, and should take whatever steps are necessary, regardless of cost, to ensure that African-Americans have as much hope and as much stake in civil society as anyone else. Only long-term, deep-seated racism stops us from doing that.

Africans were brought to this country against their will, and were robbed of their culture and families. Nothing has ever been done to compensate for that loss. All other ethnic groups came here with family and cultural ties intact, but we disregard the tremendous importance that plays in human development, and the great advantage all other sub-cultural groups therefore have over African-Americans.

As John Gorka wrote:
If the wind is at your back,
and you never turn around,
you may never know the wind is there;
you may never hear a sound.

Subject: RE: USA, Black Lives Lost in Police Actions (renamed)
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Dec 14 - 11:07 PM

Cops' Killer Angry Over Garner Death

A gunman who announced online that he was planning to shoot two "pigs" in retaliation for the chokehold death of Eric Garner ambushed two police officers in a patrol car and shot them to death in broad daylight Saturday before running to a subway station and killing himself, authorities said.

The suspect, Ismaaiyl Brinsley, wrote on an Instagram account: "I'm putting wings on pigs today. They take 1 of ours, let's take 2 of theirs," officials said. He used the hashtags Shootthepolice RIPErivGardner (sic) RIPMikeBrown.

Police said he approached the passenger window of a marked police car and opened fire, striking Officers Rafael Ramos and Wenjian Liu in the head. The officers were on special patrol in the Bedford-Stuyvesant section of Brooklyn.

http://www.newsmax.com/US/US-NYPD-Officers-Shot/2014/12/20/id/614257/#ixzz3MU9K4Hyw


Bernard Kerik: De Blasio, Sharpton 'Have Blood on Their Hands'

Former New York City Police Commissioner Bernard Kerik told Newsmax that Saturday's execution-style shooting of two uniformed police officers was ultimately encouraged by Mayor Bill de Blasio and the Rev. Al Sharpton — and "they have blood on their hands."

"de Blasio, Sharpton and all those who encouraged this anti-cop, racist mentality all have blood on their hands," he said. "They have blood on their hands."

http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/kerik-police-killings-nypd/2014/12/20/id/614261/

Subject: RE: USA, Black Lives Lost in Police Actions (renamed)
From: Mrrzy
Date: 21 Dec 14 - 12:13 AM

?What Anne Frank joke? Also, relevance of any of my jokes? Have I made any on this thread?

Also, I remain firm in my belief that the whitewashing of these deaths as losses, and of shootings as actions, takes away from the very tragedy this thread was originally intended. Shame on the whitewashers, I say, but I guess a little more quietly. Still. Really.

Subject: RE: USA, Black Lives Lost in Police Actions (renamed)
From: Mrrzy
Date: 21 Dec 14 - 12:15 AM

Oops the above should have read "intended for" sorry.

Subject: RE: USA, Black Lives Lost in Police Actions (renamed)
From: Sawzaw
Date: 21 Dec 14 - 09:08 AM

"Take your garbage elsewhere, eh Slack-Jaw? "

Why is it my garbage? It is Americas garbage. It is published "music". Why should I edit it?

It is the reality that some people want to ignore. If you ignore it it still exists. Young people listen to this. Does it affect them in any way? Could the existence of this be part of the problem? Why keep it out of the discussion?

Problems are not solved by focusing on one facet. You have to get to the root of the problem.

Does the term Slack-Jaw or Sore Jaw have any meaning other than to try to discredit someone in an ad hominem attack? Ad hominem attacks are not a solution to anything.

"Ad hominem attacks can take the form of overtly attacking somebody, or more subtly casting doubt on their character or personal attributes as a way to discredit their argument. The result of an ad hominem attack can be to undermine someone's case without actually having to engage with it."

So it you want to disprove my statement, why not discuss the statement itself?

For example how is it garbage and why should it be taken elsewhere?

If you notice, I haven't attacked anyone personally.

Subject: RE: USA, Black Lives Lost in Police Actions (renamed)
From: Sawzaw
Date: 21 Dec 14 - 09:21 AM

PS I meant to say why is it my garbage?

More on "tribal thinking":

The Tribal View

On the one hand, a tribal view takes membership in the group as the most important characteristic of an individual. An individual's worth and identity are tied to his or her membership in the group. So, for instance, in Rwanda, it mattered little that a person happened to be a good mother, a faithful wife, a generous member of her community or, simply, a human being. All that mattered in the spring and summer of 1994 was whether she was Hutu or Tutsi. No other characteristic mattered when the Interahamwe attacked.
Additionally, from the tribal perspective, the group itself takes on a kind of mythic existence. Its relationship to other groups may take on the quality of a morality play: a timeless conflict between good and evil. So, from a tribal perspective, even history can be understood only with reference to the group. Current conflicts are often "remembered" as past historical events.

The Enlightenment View

In contrast, an Enlightenment view sees individual rights, rather than group membership, as the basis for an individual's worth and identity. Because these rights are located in individuals, it does not matter whether or not the individual is a member of a majority or minority ethnic group (or any other type of group for that matter).

Subject: RE: USA, Black Lives Lost in Police Actions (renamed)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 21 Dec 14 - 10:15 AM

I would ask Sawzaw's usual pissing-contest partners to leave those posts for my reply as soon as I can get to them. There is some thinking in the posts I would like to address, and I agree that ad hominem attacks are never helpful.

=========================

GUEST 20 Dec 14 - 09:24 PM,

I do not agree that gangs are responsible for deeply internalized white biases that preceded gangs in the US and that have killed people where gang activity is nil. This is why I disagree:

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/11/science-of-racism-prejudice?utm_content=buffer71c92&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer
herjones.com/politics/2014/11/science-of-racism-prejudice?utm_content=buffer71c92&utm_medium=social&utm_source=tw">The Science of Why Cops Shoot Young Black Men


=========================


GUEST 20 Dec 14 - 11:07 PM,

REMEMBER, not one police officer has been killed since Trayvon Martin was murdered, while several Black men and children have been.

1. I applaud the great restraint exercised since Trayvon Martin's death. Indeed I applaud the great restraint of Blacks since their arrival in the US in captivity, though it pains me to know how much that restraint has cost them and that it arises partly from fear
.
2. I deplore that Black friends are having to shout loudly that they are against the murder of these two officers AS IF they would not OF COURSE have NOT wanted for it to have happened, AS IF they must now share responsibility due to their skin color. This is another example of racism-- the co-opting of news to try to take the attention away from the peaceful and effective protests (multiracial, too) that have been so powerful of late.

~Susan

Subject: RE: USA, Black Lives Lost in Police Actions (renamed)
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Dec 14 - 10:32 AM

W y s i w y G "I do not agree that gangs are responsible for deeply internalized white biases..."

No one said that. The post you replied to said that gang culture arises from conditions created by discrimination, not the other way around as you somehow concluded.

Subject: RE: USA, Black Lives Lost in Police Actions (renamed)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 21 Dec 14 - 11:04 AM

I was referring to: Their problems with the police are largely due to gang culture also.

Please expand on how this does not form a basis for my response?

==================

And in case anyone doubts it, I deplore white deaths, too.

~S~

Subject: RE: USA, Black Lives Lost in Police Actions (renamed)
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Dec 14 - 11:36 AM

The post was already too long, if you weren't willing to read past the first paragraph. Gang culture is just the latest of a long history of desperate responses to the conditions imposed by racism, but it's the dominant mechanism right now for African-American conflict with the police.

Subject: RE: USA, Black Lives Lost in Police Actions (renamed)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 21 Dec 14 - 12:36 PM

Guest/11:36, the problem with our communication is not that I did notcread or understand all of your post-- much of which I might have said myself, I agreed with it so much. I just don't see what you mean when you say that gang culture is the main issue between US Blacks and police, so I'm asking you to say more so that I might understand.

From my view, gang activity has seldom been involved in the deaths cited. Pethaps the gang issue is a side issue better explored in another thread. (And I'd participate if you started such a thread if you used a consistent handle in it.)

~S~

Subject: RE: USA, Black Lives Lost in Police Actions (renamed)
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Dec 14 - 12:56 PM

I would ask Sawzaw's usual pissing-contest partners to leave those posts for my reply as soon as I can get to them.

I don't know if I qualify as one of Slack-Jaw's USUAL partners, but will gladly step aside. "To you, from failing hands we throw the torch: be yours to hold it high." Have fun with the brain-dead asshole.

Just as an aside: why is no-one complaining about "white on white crime"- wich is considerably more prevalent than "B on B".

Subject: RE: USA, Black Lives Lost in Police Actions (renamed)
From: GUEST,sawzaw
Date: 21 Dec 14 - 09:13 PM

The medic, who works in Southwest Philadelphia, posted a photo to his personal Instagram account of two black men pointing guns at the head of a white police officer. The accompanying message said: "Our real enemy ... Need 2 stop pointing guns at each other and at the ones that's legally killing us and innocents."