guest nights and singaround clubs

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: johncharles
Date: 14 Oct 14 - 06:00 AM

Audiences clapping politely no matter how bad the performance, and the unwillingness of people to give negative feedback or the performer to accept it; result continued poor performances.
john

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 14 Oct 14 - 06:26 AM

Apart from the session at Ditchling, where the standard of musicianship is superb, and generally higher than any other event I've been to, I'd say the "order of musicianship standards" of events I attend (highest to lowest) goes:

- Open Mics
- Singarounds/ Sessions
- Folk Club Floor nights

Of the two open mic sessions I attend semi-regularly, both tend to be welcoming to newcomers or the less accomplished (me included) while at the same time having generally high standards of musicianship overall, although in a variety of genres (ranging from folk, unaccompanied sometimes, too, to beatboxing).

I don't get to as many singarounds/sessions as I used to, but those I frequented regularly/ still frequent occasionally, had/have a pretty good standard generally.

I rarely go to "proper folk clubs" now but was often disappointed with the quality of the floor singing at those I did attend.

People had obviously practiced their performances much more for the open mic/ singarounds/ sessions than for the FCs, and it showed.

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Oct 14 - 06:35 AM

"a generalisation from one particular case, something that you do on occasions. "
No, unfortunately, many professionals were known as 'characters' who insulted audiences, farted around on stage, were notoriously late turning up, or when they did, arrives somewhat worse for wear - it was part of their persona and they were regarded as 'an act' rather than a singer or musician.
One of the worst tendencies was when people would pull out of a booking at the last minute, sometimes for the worst of reasons.
I was on the Singers Club committee when we were faced with replacing one extremely well-known singer who contacted us at the last minute to tell us he wouldn't be performing because he had been offered a more lucrative booking which he "felt he couldn't afford to turn down" - unprofessional professionalism, so to speak.
To be fair, this was not general, and it wasn't confined to professionals - the point I am making is that being a professional doesn't guarantee anything other than you have to pay them when they finished.
Many professionals were known for their reliability and dedication, but so were many volunteers who just did it for the love of the music.
It doesn't matter who chucks up on stage or where they come from - it is unacceptable behaviour and in the case I a referring to, a regular occurrence
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: GUEST,#
Date: 14 Oct 14 - 09:30 AM

"I was on the Singers Club committee when we were faced with replacing one extremely well-known singer who contacted us at the last minute to tell us he wouldn't be performing because he had been offered a more lucrative booking which he "felt he couldn't afford to turn down" - unprofessional professionalism, so to speak."

I trust the performer was never hired by the club again.

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Oct 14 - 09:59 AM

"I trust the performer was never hired by the club again."
To be honest, he was such a respected and important singer on the scene that he was, though we made our opinions clear
Sadly, he died not too long after and is sorely missed
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Oct 14 - 10:02 AM

Typical mudcat, lots of cross purpose arguements when one side is referring to "professional" as an attitude towards the performance and the otehr just talking about being paid.

No names - no pack drill but too many people here just can't be arsed to read the posts that they supposedly reply to.

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Oct 14 - 10:34 AM

I think we are both referring to musicians who are paid - my point is that a paid booking does not necessarily mean either a good performance or a responsible attitude from the performer.
This, as far as I can see, is perfectly relevant to the subject in hand.
As far as I am concerned, the priority for any club is to develop a half decent resident set-up.
If that means you can book guests, fine, but I don't believe it should ever be the aim of any club.
Guets can be the icing on the cake, but they should never be a necessity
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: Musket
Date: 14 Oct 14 - 11:24 AM

Singarounds by definition are singarounds, I suppose. A more concert orientated format is where you can cram in the punters who have heard of the act and help pay by turning up but wouldn't necessarily enjoy the wide spread of folk.

We get people who love sitting in turn hearing traditional and other songs, orally or otherwise yet wouldn't dream of paying to go to a concert and we have those who love concerts but fail to see the attraction of a singaround, whether they would join in or otherwise.

Its a broad world out there. The last time I saw Vin Garbutt, I was speaking at the bar with a couple who had seen him at a charity concert, having never heard of him and were hooked, buying his records. They heard he wss on at a more "folk club" venue, and they had never been to one before... They were complaining in the bar that the "support" as they put it were "crap" and "is that the best the promotors could find?"

I wasn't angry with them. They paid to go to a concert with no preconditions and commented on the entertainment value of what they heard.

That is perhaps the thing about guest nights.. A departure from the inclusive sharing of song, living the oral tradition dream and into the world of entertainment.

You might encourage Doris to sing it tonight but tomorrow afternoon, its back to June Tabor on your HiFi.

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: GUEST,Desi C
Date: 14 Oct 14 - 01:42 PM

Re : Musket
No, of course Cash & co never did that, but then I've hardly ever seen an Amateur at an open Mic night di it either! Perhaps at the odd Singaround but Singarounds are for beginners to learn. Quite honestly the initiator of this post gave the strong impression that 'Amateurs' en masse were a bunch of crib sheet weilding idiots, FACT is the majority of Open Mic singers are as good if not better than many Guests, and usually a lot more with current trends!
p.s I went to a very busy* most entertaioing Open Mic last week and no one used crib sheets!
* The Candela Club every Wed at Coseley Working Mens club near Wolverhampton

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Oct 14 - 02:50 PM

"In my opinion and my experience the standard[with a few exceptions] in UK Folk clubs is higher in guest booking clubs than at singaround clubs."
I never mentioned open mics, neither did I say anyone was an idiot.

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: Musket
Date: 15 Oct 14 - 03:06 AM

"Singarounds are for beginners to learn."

A good place for it to happen, but learn what? How to "entertain?" A circular argument.

Many people at singarounds are sharing their love of song. Whether there is a striving for personal improvement depends on the person singing. Practice is a requirement of perfection but it is a huge mental leap to say singarounds are the folk kindergarten.

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 15 Oct 14 - 03:29 AM

Personally, I don't want to spend my evenings listening to several people 'practicing'! Those people should be practicing at home - before they even think of singing to an audience - even if it's 'just' a singaround audience.

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Oct 14 - 03:58 AM

i think you can practice at home, but eventually you have to apply yourself to performing. the first time i played in public in a virtually empty club - my knees were knocking, and my picking fingers turned to jelly.

i was lucky - the people who ran the club were very friendly and encouraging, and you owe such people a great debt. i have always tried to help and encourage others even if their style wasn't my cup of tea.

the guy running that club has been one of my best friends for nearly forty years now. being dismissive and snotty about other peoples' tastes doesn't prove your expertise.

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Oct 14 - 04:04 AM

"Those people should be practicing at home"
This shud be framed and hung up on the wall of every club and open session.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: GUEST,LynnH
Date: 15 Oct 14 - 04:31 AM

Laptops and tablets now augment the crib sheets resulting in interesting contortions as the singer bends over to try to read whatever is on the screen..........The things don't sit on music stands and there isn't always a spare stool or table available.

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 15 Oct 14 - 04:35 AM

Al, I think your experience has been echoed by anyone who has stood up to perform before an audience. I was just the same for my first time, and like you I received support from the organizers and audience. I doubt I gave them a very good performance, but they were kind and forgiving. However the rest of the evening was made up of more experienced and far better performers, so they could cope with a few minutes from a nervous novice. A full evening of it might have been another matter.

I should add that this was at a singers-only club which never booked a guest, but the standard was generally high and I knew I would have to improve to match it.

Far too many singarounds now seem to be made up largely of nervous novices with performances to match (even if they have in fact been singing for years). I think these provide a refuge for singers who rather than try to achieve higher standards to perform in a 'proper' folk club huddle together for support. Maybe that's a good thing, but it's not a club I want to go to.

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Oct 14 - 05:00 AM

One of the things I have never understood is how people who don't know a song well enough to sing it without some sort of a prop can possibly enjoy it - surely, the pleasure from singing comes from making it work, for yourself and for the audience.
This, from an extended interview we did with Ewan MacColl over a six month period in 1978 - apologies to those who have read it before.
Jim Carroll

"Now you might say that working and training to develop your voice to sing Nine Maidens A-milking Did Go or Lord Randall is calculated to destroy your original joy in singing, at least that's the argument that's put to me from time to time, or has been put to me from time to time by singers who should know better.   
The better you can do a thing the more you enjoy it.   Anybody who's ever tried to sing and got up in front of an audience and made a bloody mess of it knows that you're not enjoying it when you're making a balls of it, but you are enjoying it when it's working, when all the things you want to happen are happening.    And that can happen without training, sure it can, but it's hit or miss.   If you're training it can happen more, that's the difference.   It can't happen every time, not with anybody, although your training can stand you in good stead, it's something to fall back on, a technique, you know.   It's something that will at least make sure that you're not absolutely diabolical……………
The objective, really for the singer is to create a situation where when he starts to sing he's no longer worried about technique, he's done all that, and he can give the whole of his or her attention to the song itself, she can give her or he can give his whole attention to the sheer act of enjoying the song."

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: GUEST,shezinaussie
Date: 15 Oct 14 - 05:41 AM

I was just sitting here, reflecting on my time in the UK.
I so miss the 'singaround clubs' - you have something so special - guest nights are fine, and in intricate part of the overall presentation, but the 'singaround' nights are about the contribution of everyone, which in it's self, keeps the music alive - we have some left in Aussie, but very few! Just been watching 'Sting' in his show about the shipyards - there was the Wilson boys, singing away with the gusto that has been honed by the opportunity to sing, everytime they came to a club - performers are developed from these nights - albeit, not all will develop into performers, but like any art, it is a pyramid, and there isn't a lot of room at the top, but the strength and width of the base is what gives the stability!

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: GUEST,Desi C
Date: 15 Oct 14 - 05:54 AM

I do have to agree re cribbing off Lap tops and even worse recently a woman using her mobile phone! Might sound hypocritical given my views on cribbing. But I'm not actually saying crib sheets are a Good thing. But they can be left on a music stand or on a discreet stool, and having started that way myself I regularly advise others to spend more time practising at home and wean themselves off the crib sheets. But Lap Tops and mobiles I suggeet is a step way too far.
I well remember my first time in front of a live audience, and the sheer terror of it! And I died more than once on some very good stages. But I try to remember more that first time, when I got it right ish, and instead of that awful sympathy Clap, there was real warm applause, I still think perfprming is a form of madness, but it's for those satisfying moments we do it ;)

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Oct 14 - 06:13 AM

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 15 Oct 14 - 05:00 AM

One of the things I have never understood is how people who don't know a song well enough to sing it without some sort of a prop can possibly enjoy it - surely, the pleasure from singing comes from making it work, for yourself and for the audience.
This, from an extended interview we did with Ewan MacColl over a six month period in 1978 - apologies to those who have read it before.
Jim Carroll

"Now you might say that working and training to develop your voice to sing Nine Maidens A-milking Did Go or Lord Randall is calculated to destroy your original joy in singing, at least that's the argument that's put to me from time to time, or has been put to me from time to time by singers who should know better.   
The better you can do a thing the more you enjoy it.   Anybody who's ever tried to sing and got up in front of an audience and made a bloody mess of it knows that you're not enjoying it when you're making a balls of it, but you are enjoying it when it's working, when all the things you want to happen are happening.    And that can happen without training, sure it can, but it's hit or miss.   If you're training it can happen more, that's the difference.   It can't happen every time, not with anybody, although your training can stand you in good stead, it's something to fall back on, a technique, you know.   It's something that will at least make sure that you're not absolutely diabolical……………
The objective, really for the singer is to create a situation where when he starts to sing he's no longer worried about technique, he's done all that, and he can give the whole of his or her attention to the song itself, she can give her or he can give his whole attention to the sheer act of enjoying the song."
Jim, an excellent post.

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Oct 14 - 09:37 AM

hmmmm......just rently i saw a woman plug her mobile phone into the PA. This supplied a backing track and she read the words from the display - but she had to keep stopping because the words were written down so small.

more puzzling still is the singer who has been singing the same song for forty years and still needs the words written down ....

its an odd business.

i suppose its a bit like King Lear when his cruel daughters told him he couldn't keep his retinue of 100 knights. what do you need them for, they asked the old king. and he said, reason not the need.....

why people need to perform, i have no idea. but i think its better theydo, than watch big brothers celebrity ballroom x factor on ice.

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 15 Oct 14 - 10:23 AM

Had a young lass at an open mic recently plug in her phone which supplied a backing track *and* some looped vocals in the song chorus. Unfortunately she'd forgotton to turn off the ring tone and halfway through the song the phone started ringing.

Worse still, she answered it!

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Oct 14 - 02:29 PM

Rob, sign of the times, great story

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 15 Oct 14 - 03:20 PM

"Al, I think your experience has been echoed by anyone who has stood up to perform before an audience. I was just the same for my first time, and like you I received support from the organizers and audience."

I hate to repeat myself but here's what I said further up the thread:

"On threads like this, the usual 'bleeding heart' excuse for crib sheets is that they are a useful prop and aid for new, inexperienced singers. But I've noticed that many 'crib-sheeters' are no better performers 5 or 6 years after they started inflicting themselves on us - and they STILL use crib sheets! I've also noticed that the use of crib sheets, by one or two people, can actually serve to lower standards at singarounds - because then other idiots thinks they only have to supply themselves with a bundle of crib sheets in order to 'have a go'."

Yeah, yeah, yeah, we should support beginners, blah, blah, blah - but ONLY if those beginners are obviously making an effort to learn their material and to sing it well.

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Oct 14 - 08:03 PM

i take your point Shimrod, i have never used a crib sheet. even as a rookie. for me , performance is sacred, its what i do, what i take seriously. even before i knew i took it seriously - i took it that seriously - gave it that much commitment.

however this business of odd buggers turning up at your club. i'm sure i've told you about the guy who came up to the stage, took a ghetto blaster out of a grubby carrier bag, and proceeded to play a cassette of of a Jack Hudson song. then there was the character who had some words on a fag packet sized piece of paper - and he read out the words of Charlie Pride's Crystal Chandelier.

you can either react with compassion, or not.

its the society we've been given. you can either spend your time wishing we all worked down the mines, and ploughed the ocean waves. or you can get on with it.

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 16 Oct 14 - 12:11 PM

right on, al. i'll go with the compassion, but then I like to have a music stand too !. but that don't stop me putting passion and expression into my performance.

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Oct 14 - 12:43 AM

good for you Pete!.. As Hughie Green used to say, WE WANNA HEAR HIM!

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: GUEST,Bignige
Date: 17 Oct 14 - 12:09 PM

I just love to hear the self righteous crowd banging on about "crib sheets", how good they all must be because they sing a song from memory. Err Bullshit bullshit bullshit. If a song is performed well then it doesn't matter a toss whether a crib sheet is used or not. The instances described above are all about bad performers, and the world of Folk has armies of them. Anyway who are all these self appointed guardians of Folk Music who say what we can and can't do.

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 17 Oct 14 - 06:02 PM

" Anyway who are all these self appointed guardians of Folk Music who say what we can and can't do."

I am NOT a "self appointed guardian" and I have NEVER ordered anyone either to do something or not to do something. I have an opinion which happens to differ from yours, 'Bignige', and that's all!

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Oct 14 - 06:30 PM

If you go to a play, you don't expect to watch actors read their lines - but then again, folk music is not as important and a play.
Tis is beyond me how a singer can get any form of interpretation from a song they don't know well enough
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Oct 14 - 07:41 PM

some people reckon they can. apparently Tony Hancock never learned his lines. Marlon Brando apparently never learned a single word of the script of Julius Caesar.

anyway, personally i wouldn't want to actually refuse someone who actually wished to perform with a cribsheet.

the strange thing is - i once went into this club and a bloke was singing from a kindle thing, that he had bought a special tray to attach to the mic stand. and he had rigged up a footswitch to turn the page of the kindle.

you can't help thinking -surely it would be easier to learn the bloody thing.

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: Musket
Date: 18 Oct 14 - 01:57 AM

I think bignige is confusing crib sheets with crib sheets here.

My beef is those buggers who sit reading and sorting whilst others are singing. You would assume they reckon everybody in the room is just waiting in quiet anticipation for their next recital.

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 18 Oct 14 - 01:58 AM

It seems to me that the advent of crib sheets has coincided with lower standards of singing at singarounds. Has one led to the other? Well, possibly.

All I can say is that there's a bloke who comes to one of the singarounds that I attend and every time his bundle of crib sheets gets bigger and bigger and he sings longer and longer songs. His voice hasn't improved though! He still mumbles and croaks tunelessly through these increasingly epic ditties. When its his turn, I contrive to head for the bar or the gents!

The other week, another bloke turned up with a guitar. He put his crib sheet on the seat of a chair in front of him and recited from it whilst bent over his guitar. His chosen material was a 27 verse ballad. All that I could hear was a Nic Jones guitar riff, repeated 27 times, accompanied by more, barely audible, tuneless mumbling!

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: Hesk
Date: 18 Oct 14 - 02:27 AM

If you remember lyrics to songs, or words for a play, easily, you may not understand that others find this more difficult than you, or in extreme cases, virtually impossible.
This does not mean that they do not wish to sing, or that they are any less interested in doing so than you.
Is it possible that you may come across as smug, or "holier than thou" in your entrenched position?
A little bit of give and take might go a long way to make the singarounds a less intimidating experience for the nervous, but nevertheless, keen performer.
In my limited experience I have seen intolerance and bad manners expressed in looks, actions and comments at singarounds and festivals over the years. They would have been happier and better places without it, in what is after all, a hobby for most.
However, these occasions are infrequent. Most go just to have a good time enjoying the fun of singing and playing together in an acoustic setting.

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: GUEST,Bignige
Date: 18 Oct 14 - 05:02 AM

Shimrod, Thats exactly what you are, trying to tell others, with if I might say so, a slight air if disdain, that the use of Crib sheets would not be acceptable to any serious performer.

Musket, I think you maybe confusing crib sheets with bad manners. Of course the rustling papers, and come to that, any other form of disrespectful behaviour is unacceptable. That's not the fault of the crib sheet, that's the fault of the individual concerned and their lack of consideration for others. I would accept this situation has worsened over the last few years, but that merely reflects the way society has become more intolerent.

Folk has got to accept that if promote sessions and singarounds, quite often advertised as "come along sing and song or a tune play", then you will have to accept the rough with the smooth, whatever that may mean.

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Oct 14 - 05:48 AM

If someone has learnt a song but suffers nerves or is easily put off when others join in I don't see that a nearby crib sheet (in case of mental melt down and blind panic) should be a problem.

This is quite different from someone singing from a book or whatever, having made no effort to learn the song in the first place.

Having said that, not everyone can remember song lyrics effectively and I don't see why, if a performance is good, why the performer should be condemned because they had to read the words. What happened to tolerance?

What's the difference between reading words and reading a musical score (apart possibly from the degree of difficulty in remembering the latter)?

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: GUEST,Bignige
Date: 18 Oct 14 - 06:02 AM

Agree 100% it shouldn't be a problem. Folk Clubs are maybe the only venue where ordinary people can get a platform to perform, some good some not so, just the way it is.

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 18 Oct 14 - 06:45 AM

Well, call me old-fashioned, but I believe that its all a matter of rights AND responsibilities. Obviously everyone should have the right to sing at singarounds but with that right comes a RESPONSIBILITY to entertain your audience and fellow singers - not subject them to an excruciating ordeal! Often that comes down to putting the work in beforehand. I think that the MINIMUM effort that a singer should put in is to learn the words of his/her song(s). And please don't give me that crap about poor/defective memories! Often the excuse of a 'poor memory' hides a bad case of 'lazyitis'. If anyone turns up at the singaround that I attend with a crib sheet, I just assume that they're a lazy git ... unless, of course, they produce a doctor's note ...

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Oct 14 - 06:50 AM

dunno about that...seems like Shimrod has a lot to put up with.

what i generally do in the circumstances is this...you see these people aren't completely stupid. they see that you know what you're doing - they see that your spot is well received, and that that theirs isn't.

start off by complimenting him on the nic jones riff. then say - look i think i can help you put together a stronger performance, and make some constructive suggestions. show that you CARE and you've thought about ways forward for him.

alternatively you could tip him the black spot.

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: Bounty Hound
Date: 18 Oct 14 - 07:41 AM

Are we over complicating this?

I personally have never viewed singarounds as performance, but are more about self entertainment, a group of (hopefully) like minded people singing and playing for the pure pleasure of doing it.

The singarounds I've attended have always been friendly, welcoming and inclusive, if someone is not of a particularly good standard, or needs to use a cheat sheet or whatever, that's not an issue as they are not 'performing', they are 'taking part'.

A 'performance' is a different matter altogether, where one is 'playing' to an audience, who have probably paid for the privilege of being there, I would expect, even at an amateur level, that the 'performance' had been rehearsed and the material properly learned.

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Oct 14 - 07:51 AM

well yes BH, but Shimrod's got this situation to deal with. he could find himself with an empty club. every folk club presents its own challenges, and you have to try .....

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 18 Oct 14 - 08:21 AM

In the past, I have been moved and inspired by singers at singarounds ... but that seems to happen less and less these days.

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Oct 14 - 09:19 AM

In the past, I have been moved and inspired by singers at singarounds ... but that seems to happen less and less these days.

I suspect that may be partly due to familiarity,as you get older and more experienced there is less new and different material to enjoy,in a nutshell "you've heard it all before"
There have always been new and weaker performers,some have failed to improve,some have eventually blossomed.
I think also many clubs may be more forgiving to some weak performers because they are long standing attendees and regarded as friends.

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 18 Oct 14 - 09:21 AM

Guest above is me

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: GUEST,Bignige
Date: 18 Oct 14 - 10:06 AM

Good performers bad performers, its all subjective. The only rule for me is no rules. Guest Derrick talks the most sense.

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Oct 14 - 01:01 PM

Which is why the clubs are dying, if not dead.

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: GUEST,Bignige
Date: 18 Oct 14 - 04:42 PM

Why because of bad performers?

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 18 Oct 14 - 05:06 PM

"The only rule for me is no rules."

So you're in favour of chaos and anarchy are you, Bignige? All human societies and organisations rely on rules - both explicit and implicit - in order to function properly. If you don't believe me, just try driving down the motorway, at 90 mph, against the follow of the traffic ... err ... on second thoughts, don't try that! Rules are just one of those aspects of life that you just have to learn to live with.

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Oct 14 - 06:18 PM

of course u try and formulate a club policy. but you have be prepared to do whatever to make it work. after all its about people, and people are unpredictable - i have found!

Subject: RE: guest nights and singaround clubs
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 19 Oct 14 - 02:34 AM

" ...against the FLOW of the traffic" - not "follow" - shouldn't post just before bed time!