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Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: Jack Blandiver Date: 15 Oct 14 - 05:38 AM A black-faced sweep -- so from his work, no connection whatever to race -- has long been regarded as a bringer of good luck - I placed especial emphasis on deliberately blacking-up, Michael. The last coalman we had was when we lived a few years back in a village in rural country Durham; I'd known this guy for four years and didn't recognise him one night I saw him washed and clean in the pub. I've said here before that whilst there are many & various historical, traditional, folkloric & occupational precedents for blacking up, my argument is that to do so in a Modern Context for Purposes of Revival and Recreation is just plain wrong. Interesting that our chimney sweep at that time supplemented his dwindling income by doing weddings as well. Blacked-up, of course, as one expects a chimney-sweep to be black because of his trade, not because it is a matter of folklore or custom, which is less clear. So - even there might well be non-racist reasons for the village morris-dancers of old blacking-up of old (as I allow there might be) to do so in today's society, at some remove culturally & historically from the context in which practises traditionally took place, is a racist act regardless. * So what about the question posed earlier then Jack, are Aboriginal dancers with white faces racist, or is that just their tradition? Your precious custom only dates from the 60s and 70s - and even then takes a while to catch-on in morris fashion. I remember a Morris Ring meeting in Durham around 1985 or so and only one side (the admittedly astonishing Silurians) were blacked-up. Now everywhere you look you see black-faced dancers in a variety of modern styles & tastes. How can you compare such slap-dash make-it-up-as-you-go-along revivalism of a few hearty middle-class hobbyists to the aeons old culture of a severely oppressed & harshly victimised depressed ethnic minority whose only pride comes from the vestiges of their living culture? The men smear their faces and bodies with white clay and move onto the sand in a large group, carrying ceremonial spears. They stand before a specially constructed cloth-walled tent in which the body lies. Older men provide the music—a rhythmic crack of clapsticks, a trilling chant, the thrumming drone of the didgeridoo. Then the dancers, like the ancestral beings of the Dreamtime, seem to shift shape before my eyes, contorting their bodies, elongating their necks, stomping their feet and thrusting spears, all moving together, a many-legged creature, sand flying, sweat streaming. Each dance, mimicking an animal or a natural event, is short and intense. There's the white seagull dance, the octopus dance, the north wind dance, the cockatoo dance. Some are performed only by women. The dances last all day, and another, and another—the funeral carries on for ten days—as people stream in from communities across the bush to pay respect, to dance some more, to set the soul on its journey with the grandest possible send-off. (from HERE Where, I wonder, is the comparison? |
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Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: GUEST Date: 15 Oct 14 - 05:55 AM We had a black American staying with us at a folk festival,she was not offended by black face Morris. We explained there where many theories and pick the one that suited, she thought it highly amusing that if she danced she could paint her face white and no one would know it was her. I suspect all the people contribute here are white and need to get a life there are more important things out there other than Morris men blacking up it is not racist apart from those that want to make it. |
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Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: GUEST,Re-enactor, Date: 15 Oct 14 - 06:04 AM I find it astonishing that so many Mudcatters cannot accept that its perfectly possible to COPY something without MOCKING it. I take part in re-enactments of Napoleonic era battles, and as such I wear the appropriate uniforms and affect as far as I can the speech and mannerisms of the period, Am I mocking soldiers of the Era ?, I also formerly played in a country and western style band, and when on stage I wore Stetson, jeans, checked or fancy shirts and cowboy boots, and tried to use an American Accent when singing, am I mocking American Cowboys ?? certainly in neither case was I trying to mock or insult anyone. I don't find it beyond possibility that 19th century white performers seeing the popularity of the black colleagues on the vaudeville circuit decided to try and emulate their success, and adopted black make up as part of the act, I don't think we can automatically assume Evil intent in this. !! By the same token Morris dancers of that period in some areas may have built on an already existing tradition of disguise in order to appeal to a wider audience by incorporating elements of the then popular minstrel acts in their performance. The Photo of the American team in there "Kiss" style outfits shows this still happening today.( Or are they Mocking Kiss !!!) |
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Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: GUEST, Date: 15 Oct 14 - 06:20 AM "The thing I fail to understand is why any self respecting morris side would want to be photographed posing with Cameron!" "All I can say is the dancers in question can't be very good trade unionists." "I still don't understand why any self respecting morris side would want to pose with Cameron, even if they are in disguise!" Whatever the origins of the Morris (disputed, as we know), the reality, whether you like it or not, is that Morris dancing is now a largely middle-class pursuit. Many dancers are not left-wing activists or even left-wing sympathisers. There is no reason for the people quoted above to expect them to agree unquestioningly with the politics of the twentieth-century working class, or of agricultural labourers in previous centuries. |
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Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: GUEST,Henry Piper of Ottery. Date: 15 Oct 14 - 06:29 AM I am a founder member of a black face Border morris Team, The Dartford Motley, later Motley Morris, although I have long retired from dancing. We were one of the earliest teams to take up the style, certainly in the South East, largely under the influence of John Kirkpatricks Shropshire Bedlams. During our early years we regularly danced around South London, and North Kent areas with quite a sizeable,Black population, to the best of my recollection we never experienced any hostility from these people, amusement sometimes, and Much Ribald jocularity. The hostility towards black faces seems to have come about in fairly recent times and as far as I can see seems to emanate, in the main not from black people themselves, but by a section of the white population who chose to speak on others behalf, and seem to see affront in quite unintentional areas, and are determined to pin the racist label on everything they see around them, wether or not there is any intent to insult or hurt. |
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Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: Bounty Hound Date: 15 Oct 14 - 06:35 AM So Jack, it's ok for a chimney sweep to DELIBERATELY black up, as it's what everyone expects! but despite the fact that border dancers and molly dancers in East Anglia have been doing so for the last two centuries, that's not! The comparison with Aboriginal dancers is obvious, they paint their faces in a colour different to their natural colour, and as they live in the same world as us, and do it deliberately, so by your definition, it must be a racist act. Tell me precisely how a morris man, dressing up in a tatter jacket, putting heavy boots and bell pads on, wearing a hat decorated with flowers and feathers, and painiting their face is in ANY WAY demeaning to someone of a different ethnic origin or skin colour? As I said, the face paint is just part of the kit! Perhaps putting feathers in their hat is also indicative of them having issues with pheasants! As Guest just said, 'Morris men blacking up it is not racist apart from those that want to make it' and for some unknown reason, you obviously do! |
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Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: GUEST,as at 14 Oct 14 - 03:33 PM Date: 15 Oct 14 - 06:45 AM What 'MGM Lion' pointed out about the incomplete blacking i what an image search shows. I think it is derogatory, in a "does he take sugar" sort of way, to attempt to speak for the people who it is thought might be offended. |
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Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: GUEST,Howard Jones Date: 15 Oct 14 - 06:53 AM "The very act of deliberately blacking up is racist" Nonsense. It is being done for entirely different purposes. That it may be seen as racist by some is another matter. The increase in blacked-up morris coincides with the revival of the traditions which used it. Prior to the 1970s 'morris' almost invariably meant Cotswold, where there was no tradition of blacking up. The 1970s saw the revival of Border and Molly. Now you may criticise this as 'fake', and much of it has been made up, but as far as possible the original revivalists took as much as was known from traditional sources, including the costumes and the practice of blacking up. As Henry Piper points out, this was uncontroversial until fairly recently (long after minstrel blackface or actors blacking up to play Othello became unacceptable). Perhaps this reflects the proliferation of Border sides. It seems to provoke far more of a reaction from white people taking offence on black people's behalf than it does from black people themselves. If morris were racist, then using a different colour face paint would not disguise it. Would anyone have been fooled by the Blue and White Minstrels? |
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Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: Les in Chorlton Date: 15 Oct 14 - 06:53 AM Sleen and Jack have said it all in more than a little detail. As most people don't read earlier posts once the get past about 20 we are faced (!) with going around and around this subject again and again. 1. The evidence for the roots of 'Blackface' are in Minstrelsey wich was racist. 2. Most Border sides make up the dances, the kit, the tunes and play instruments never heard in Morris - great drama has been created - please stop blacking up. 3. Who is offended - almost no one but then who knows or cares about Morris anyway. 4. Most black people probably know as much about Morris as the rest of the population but make no mistake many, many black people know much, much more about the history of racism then the rest of the population. Some are uncomfortable and some are offended. 5. So we have dance sides going out with the intention of entertaining the general public and furthering some strange understanding of an English Tradition and they don't care if they offend some people. |
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Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: GUEST,Rahere Date: 15 Oct 14 - 06:57 AM Jack, Spleen, when someone as racially aware as Will Straw defends them, and all you have is the nonsense argument of a wholly fictious parallel with something which has been rectified, then you've lost, I'm afraid. Your case was answered long since, and with no other data to refresh it, then you're simply being contentious. Taken more widely, the use of "racism" as a broad-brush get-out-of-jail-free card is as much racist as the behaviour it is meant to stop (as seen in the Manchester child abuse cases, I repeat). Racism remains a serious and utterly disgusting problem, and discrediting a major tool against it in this way is to nobody's benefit. You argue it was an invention of the 1960s/70s, the record shows it is far older. Keep the charge for the things which really are racist, please. |
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Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: GUEST,Reynard Date: 15 Oct 14 - 07:03 AM I'd just like to make an appeal to Border morris dancers. You are dancing a revived version of a tradition, piece together from various bits of evidence, and being creative with the music and dances. Is it really *that* important for you to black-up? Is there no other more creative way you can honour the tradition of disguise? Do you really not "give a shit" that many people will be repelled from the tradition you are trying to promote? Is it worth having to repeat the rather shaky justifications about disguise etc. to counter the assumption that you are being racist? |
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Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: Les in Chorlton Date: 15 Oct 14 - 07:04 AM Sleen and Jack have said it all in more than a little detail. As most people don't read earlier posts once the get past about 20 we are faced (!) with going around and around this subject again and again. 1. The evidence for the roots of 'Blackface' are in Minstrelsey wich was racist. 2. Most Border sides make up the dances, the kit, the tunes and play instruments never heard in Morris - great drama has been created - please stop blacking up. 3. Who is offended - almost no one but then who knows or cares about Morris anyway. 4. Most black people probably know as much about Morris as the rest of the population but make no mistake many, many black people know much, much more about the history of racism then the rest of the population. Some are uncomfortable and some are offended. 5. So we have dance sides going out with the intention of entertaining the general public and furthering some strange understanding of an English Tradition and they don't care if they offend some people. |
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Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: Jack Blandiver Date: 15 Oct 14 - 07:21 AM A Proud Tradition? Nope! Looks like Will Straw's fallen prey to the same bollox notions of history & tradition as everyone else who sees no harm in this noxious practise yet feels the need to apologise for it. Regardless of HISTORY, and regardless of TRADITION (whatever THAT might be!) blacked-up morris is backwards reactive hobbyism with no more relevance to the vibrant culture of the UK than model railways have to our transport system. It's quirky, contrived and eccentric - a folksy pastime contrived in the 1960s from a long dead (and rightly so) bucolic custom carried out by less enlightened individuals in less enlightened times. * Incidentally, the Royal Marines, SAS etc use black face make-up for disguise in night ops. Why aren't the 'right on' PCers calling this practice racist? I suspect its because Morris Dancers are seen as a softer target that the Armed Forces! Enjoy. That has to be the worst, Paul. |
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Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: Bounty Hound Date: 15 Oct 14 - 07:32 AM 1. The evidence for the roots of 'Blackface' are in Minstrelsey wich was racist. The counter evidence, possibly more compelling, when you consider the whole nature of morris is that it was a means of disguise, as recorded in the 18th century, and not just border morris, but molly dancers in East Anglia. 2. Most Border sides make up the dances, the kit, the tunes and play instruments never heard in Morris - great drama has been created - please stop blacking up. There are only a few recorded dances from the borders, and morris sides creating their own is part of the living tradition, and as pointed out before, painting faces is merely part of the kit. |
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Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker Date: 15 Oct 14 - 07:32 AM If Jeremy Clarkson decided to become a morris dancer ..........???????? |
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Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: GUEST,Derrick Date: 15 Oct 14 - 07:33 AM 1. The evidence for the roots of 'Blackface' are in Minstrelsey wich was racist. Les, Have you forgotten the last post on this topic? You conceded then, after reading the wikapedia article on border morris,that blacking up was much older than the minstrel shows. You agreed that the article was inconclusive regarding the amount of influence the minstrel shows had on the matter. The evidence you quote as far as I can see is your opinion rather than fact. |
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Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe Date: 15 Oct 14 - 07:37 AM On a thread about morris sides blacking up, is it not a little disingenuous to defend the practice by suggesting that we shouldn't disagree with it whilst there are more serious and overt manifestations of racism out there? "Keep your powder dry, lads" is usually code for "we don't want to have to think about this one". Of course horrorshows like the rise of UKIP and the increase in media fuelled muslim-bashing are far more pressing, but that's for a seperate thread. This is a discussion of a particular "folkloric" practice on a folk forum. You ok with that? I also cannot emphasise enough that my objection to modern blackface I don't particularly want my cultural heritage represented by dubious customs that should have long been consigned to the dustbin of history - and in fact were, until the re-enactors got their hands on them. White people blacking up to entertain in the 21st century cannot be divorced from the racist legacy of minstrelry even if the people who do it protest vociforously that that is not what they mean. For me, it is simply a case of not in my name. There are plenty of traditional pursuits that have changed beyond recognition or been abandoned to the sea of barbarism where they belong - anyone fancy making the case for bringing back badger baiting, bear baiting, dog fighting, hare coursing, ducking witches and so on because they are (arguably more so than blackfaced morris) part of our tradition? As none of us are impoverished agricultural labourers hiding our identities from the squire when we go begging (if you accept that this is the only historic reason for blacking up and ignore the other factors), there is no reason not to adapt the tradition for the 21st century as morris dancers have clearly done for many other aspects of their hobby. But I suspect a bunch of blacked-up whiteys who are happy to pose with Cameron wouldn't give a toss about this anyway... |
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Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: Bounty Hound Date: 15 Oct 14 - 07:37 AM You didn't answer my question Jack! 'Tell me precisely how a morris man, dressing up in a tatter jacket, putting heavy boots and bell pads on, wearing a hat decorated with flowers and feathers, and painiting their face is in ANY WAY demeaning to someone of a different ethnic origin or skin colour? As I said, the face paint is just part of the kit! Perhaps putting feathers in their hat is also indicative of them having issues with pheasants! |
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Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: GUEST Date: 15 Oct 14 - 07:46 AM Pheasants have to die to decorate those hats ... ;-) |
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Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: Manitas_at_home Date: 15 Oct 14 - 07:53 AM "border dancers and molly dancers in East Anglia have been doing so for the last two centuries" No, they haven't. The dancing died out and has been "revived" or more likely made up and labeled as the same thing. |
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Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: GUEST,Henry Piper of Ottery. Date: 15 Oct 14 - 07:53 AM Les. To avoid more "Going around and around" let me summarise my reasons for disagreeing with a lot, (though not all off your Numbered comments) 1).The evidence for the "Roots" of Black faces lying with Minstrelsy, is by no means conclusive, on the contrary there is considerable evidence that blackened faces have been used as a disguise in many other seasonal rituals, prior to the popularity of minstrelsy, the assertion that it is always racist is also shaky, it may appear so to modern sensibilities, but as an above poster says, it may also be seen as a way of white performers cashing in on the success and popularity of black artists, without necessarily any deliberate intention to demean or insult them, it would be interesting to see how black performers were viewed by the public and white colleagues. From what I've read of music hall history, there were quite a few black performers and in the main they seem to have been very popular. 2)....unfortunately true in the main, although the costumes historically worn did seem to feature an element of fancy dress and did include tatters worn on the jackets or shirts, in Motley Morris ALL our original dances were based on known dances or constructed from collected fragments, and our instruments were, concertinas, melodeons, and fiddles, all instruments found in mainstream Morris. the tunes we used were the ones associated with the collected information, or popular tunes from the Victorian period. 3/4 you said it, almost no one is offended, and in the main those offended seem to be white people taking offence on behalf of black people, certainly many black people will have experienced racism in some form, but I would think that the majority would be more concerned about Real discrimination in Housing, employment and similar real-life issues than worrying about a few people wearing make up and cavorting around outside a pub a few times a year. 5, don't quite understand your point here Les, I don't believe that its a case of not caring if people are offended, and I believe that the actual numbers offended are smaller than you might imagine. Whether we like it or not,and for whatever historical reasons, Border Morris WAS danced in the main with black faces, and if we are going to present an accurate picture of the tradition/style call it what you will we should present it "warts and all" Explaining if necessary to audiences the historical setting in which it existed. |
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Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker Date: 15 Oct 14 - 08:15 AM Surely it just boils down to a simple basic premise. If YOU stubbornly insist on blacking up in public, in an era and social climate where a significant proportion of our populace will automatically suspect you are likely to be making a provocative racist statement, then YOU must take full responsibility, and accept the consequences. Can't be simpler than that can it ??? So carry on 'blacking up' if it's that important to you..... Note: "Carry on Blacking Up" 1975 Sid and Ken and all rest of the loveable saucy crew play a village morris dance team who come a cropper when the annual 'blacking up' dance fete and beauty contest clashes with a bullying farm land owner spitefully hiring one of his fields to a Reggae pop festival. Oh well... we can dream... |
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Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: Les in Chorlton Date: 15 Oct 14 - 08:21 AM Thanks very much for a thoughtful and reasoned reply Henry. 1).The evidence for the "Roots" of Black faces lying with Minstrelsy, is by no means conclusive, - sorry it is - I have posted the evidence before but people generally just ignore it. Instruments? Saxophones I have seen in Morris Bands - Blackface is claimed to have it's roots 16 C 17C 18C - free reads are much later. I have no problem with any of that but if people cherry pick which bits of history they are following the need to understand history and evidence. As for who is offended to be clear almost nobody knows - isn't that the truth? But some Black People are - not many but yes some are. "and I believe that the actual numbers offended are smaller than you might imagine" You can believe and imagine what you like - that's not evidence. What in the microscopic world of Border Morris stopping people from just using other colours? |
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Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: Jack Blandiver Date: 15 Oct 14 - 08:23 AM Tell me precisely how a morris man, dressing up in a tatter jacket, putting heavy boots and bell pads on, wearing a hat decorated with flowers and feathers, and painiting their face is in ANY WAY demeaning to someone of a different ethnic origin or skin colour? As I said, the face paint is just part of the kit! Perhaps putting feathers in their hat is also indicative of them having issues with pheasants! I would have thought it was self-evident, BH. Ultimately it's all about individuality, being what you are, being proud of what you are and living to engender a sense of pride in others and being proud of them too. Soon as you have to invent an excuse to black-up your face, you're entering the murky world of fakelore, in which all sorts of justifications are made as why some middle-class middle-aged morris person would want to black up their faces, none of which is of any immediate cultural or traditional relevance to that individual - unlike a chimney sweep, a coalman or a member of the SAS on night patrol, all of whom have clear, obvious and self-evidently non-racist reasons for having a black face. Just as your Aboriginal tribes-person has for painting their faces with white clay (though even if it was for racial reasons I'd think they more than justified in doing so). The blacked-up morris person has none of these, all they have is a handy list of folksy excuses none of which are in any way relevant to their immediate situation which is, after all, simply one of a civilised 21st human being feeling somehow compelled to black up their face for reasons, ultimately, best known to themselves. Given that we live in an age of hieghtened sensitivity to issues of race and ethnicity in a country where these things matter a good deal, such behaviour is both suspect and puzzling. Historical and Traditional reasons prove utterly bogus; the reasons that emerge are invariable a reaction to Political Correctness Gone Mad which is somehow perceived as a threat to some wholly fictitious folk heritage (re-modelled circa 1975) which must be protected at all costs least we somehow lose our all-important national pride. Still, never mind, eh, chaps? Under UKIP I dare say such practises will be compulsory. Be afraid. Be VERY afraid. |
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Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: GUEST, topsie Date: 15 Oct 14 - 08:34 AM "Pheasants have to die to decorate those hats ..." I doubt if anyone ever killed a pheasant just to get the feathers. Pheasants may be killed and then eaten, but you don't eat the feathers, they are merely removed before cooking the bird. Also, birds naturally moult and shed feathers, so they can be obtained without any killing involved. |
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Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: GUEST,as at 14 Oct 14 - 03:33 PM Date: 15 Oct 14 - 08:49 AM In the multicultural UK is seems to be generally accepted that within certain bounds of decency we can appear in public dressed and with our bodies decorated as we choose. This sometimes involves tolerating things that we are, reasonably or not, uncomfortable about. If no-one can show that blacked up dancers are intending to cause offence then not letting them be could be seen as the thin end of a wedge. Blacking of hands would concern me. |
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Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: GUEST Date: 15 Oct 14 - 08:52 AM Pheasants have to die to be eaten. |
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Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker Date: 15 Oct 14 - 09:01 AM At election time, the young skinheads in the hostel flats on our street prominently displayed B*P posters in their windows, in direct veiw of the young black family opposite. This is their right to freedom of political expression. I daresay these young skins would be amongst the first to volunter to march in protest and support for the traditional rights of morris teams to wear black faces...??? |
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Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: Jack Blandiver Date: 15 Oct 14 - 09:06 AM I accept that no pheasants are intentionally harmed in the creation of a morris-person's kit; I doubt they have that close a relationship with their ecology, heritage or environment. This is faux culture as random road-kill; one would hope they'd have more respect for this once noble & beautiful bird than to use its plumage in their folksy fancy dress ball. |
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Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: Bounty Hound Date: 15 Oct 14 - 09:18 AM 'I would have thought it was self-evident, BH' Nope, nothing self-evident, or anything in your post that actually answers the question Jack. Just to remind you, as you state clearly that a blacked up morris dancer is racist, I asked you to explain precisely why a morris man in full kit, with a painted face is in any way demeaning to someone of a different ethnic origin or skin colour? |
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Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: GUEST Date: 15 Oct 14 - 09:20 AM I was more thinking that wearing the feathers could be regarded as supporting a situation where large numbers of the birds are bred and released to become road kill so that rich folks can kill them for fun. Could be regarded by some people, that is. |
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Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: GUEST,Howard Jones Date: 15 Oct 14 - 09:32 AM I think Jack is being deliberately provocative when he refers to 'blackface' morris. 'Blackface' is a particular form of blacking up which is intended to perpetuate racial stereotypes and is typified by minstrelsy. I've never seen a morris side blacked up in a style which resembles blackface or which perpetuates a racial stereotype (unless that stereotype is of slightly overweight white men with beards). Since it is more than 35 years since the Black and White Minstrel show was last broadcast, and it was a bizarre anachronism even then, surely when seeing someone blacked up today the association should be with morris, rather than minstrelsy? |
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Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker Date: 15 Oct 14 - 09:40 AM If it's about reviving and celebrating age old traditions, why not consider ditching the tatty costumes and 'black up', and instead opt for more authentic full on ferocious woad decorated naked bodies. Now that'd be a morris side for the 21st century...... |
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Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: GUEST, Date: 15 Oct 14 - 09:42 AM "large numbers of the birds are bred and released to become road kill so that rich folks can kill them for fun" They become "road kill" when they are hit and killed by vehicles on a road. Killing them once they are dead wouldn't really be much "fun". Yes, pheasants are bred and released for rich people to shoot at, but it is still quite possible to find feathers without any deliberate killing involved (some may die of natural causes, and some will be killed by foxes, who may or may not then eat them, but who also don't usually eat the feathers). |
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Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: GUEST,going on about pheasants Date: 15 Oct 14 - 09:44 AM The analogy is that if someone has a "bee in their bonnet" about something (blood sports or minstrelsy) they can choose to pick on an innocent part of someone's "kit" and make a fuss about it whether there is a connection or not. |
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Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: GUEST,going on about pheasants Date: 15 Oct 14 - 09:49 AM Crossed. There, you see. I bet that's a post from an innocent pheasant feather wearer being forced to get all defensive. |
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Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: GUEST Date: 15 Oct 14 - 09:52 AM 1).The evidence for the "Roots" of Black faces lying with Minstrelsy, is by no means conclusive, - sorry it is - I have posted the evidence before but people generally just ignore it. Les, Would that be the article in the E D and S magazine you are refering to,the one you quote in the Folklore:border morris post early in September? The tone of the article is clearly dismissive and full of contempt,written it would appear by some one with little time for border morris. To save myself the trouble of repeating the thread, I suggest any one interested read the thread and draw their own conclusions on your statement quoted at the top of this post |
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Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: GUEST,Henry Piper of Ottery. Date: 15 Oct 14 - 09:52 AM This Topic is obviously very Heartfelt by several people, who no doubt will continue to argue their points if view on both sides. As I mentioned earlier I have long ago retired from Dancing, so the topic is of less important too me than it once, I still maintain that whilst blacking up may in modern times and with our modern sensibilities be considered offensive by some, it was, a 19th century development of an already existing tradition, and that development was undoubtedly influenced by the popularity of minstrel troupes. At the time it was not considered offensive, but times and sensibilities change, and those who continue to black up in the interest of historical accuracy should make every effort to explain to audiences the social and historic context in which these dances were done.I think we have to acknowledge our past, Faults and all, and whether we like it or not this is how the dances were done, and I do believe that as well as developing and expanding a tradition we should always keep in mind its origin and development. I shall now leave this discussion to others !!. Incidentally one of the reasons I gave up dancing, was what I observed as the poor dancing standards of some teams. Little attempt to keep within the constraints of what WAS known of this meagre tradition, such as "over the Top" and ever more ridiculous costumes huge bands of inappropriate musical instruments, and an insistence on foisting rubbish about "Pagan Fertility Rites" on the audience, So I I'm Certainly with Les on that. Regards to all Henry. |
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Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: GUEST,Derrick Date: 15 Oct 14 - 09:53 AM Guest 15 Oct 09:52 is me |
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Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: GUEST,Henry Piper of Ottery Date: 15 Oct 14 - 10:06 AM ...........Oh ! and the shrieking and Yelling,!!!! Bye, |
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Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: Les in Chorlton Date: 15 Oct 14 - 10:12 AM From: Ruth Archer - PM Date: 29 Jun 09 - 04:36 PM Tam: I have posted this previously on Mudcat, but it was somtome before you joined. You might be interested: 'I'm quoting from an article written by Derek Schofield in English Dance and Song magazine, summer 2005: "Forty years ago, the only English traditional, or revival, dance group who blacked up were the Britania Coco-nut Dancers from Bacup." "There are references to people blacking up as a form of disguise in popular custom, although in Heaney and Forrest's book 'Annals of Early Morris', there is only one reference to black-faced morris dancers in the period they studied (up to 1750), and that is from the mid-sixteenth century." The article goes on to discuss how black-faced minstrelsy took hold in America from the early 19th century, and eventually made its way to Britain and enjoyed huge popularity here by the turn of the 20th century: "no village concert was complete without a few minstrel songs." The piece goes on to discuss the incorporation of blacking up into "traditional" events: "There would seem to be little doubt that the black faces of the traditional morris dance groups of the Welsh Border counties were at least influenced by minstrelsy. The occasional use of banjoes, bones and tambourines in these morris dances cannot be mere coincidence." I apologise for the brief and piecemeal nature of these quotes, and for the lack of context (especially to Derek) - sadly the whole article is not available on-line. But I can tell you that it makes a pretty convincing case for the influence of minstrelsy on blacking up. So then the question is, if blacking up and minstrelsy were once intrinsically linked, does it matter today?' Derek went on to add in the same thread: 'Having looked into blacking up for the EDS feature that Ruth Archer has kindly quoted from, there is undoubtedly an influence on English folk culture from minstrelsy. Bacup may be one, Padstow mummers may be another, the 20th century traditional Border morris which has been copied by revival sides might be another. The question is ...has the blacking up transcended its origin and now have a life of its own? Does this practice offend sectors of our society? (And I don't mean just the black members of our society ... white people might also be offended). And if so, are we prepared to do anything about it?' Another quote from the same thread, from Dave Hunt: 'A version of the 'A' part of the tune is also used for the tune known as 'Clee Hill' as collected from Dennis Crowther who is from that area, which is not far from Ludlow in South Shropshire. The tune was used by the morris/molly dancers from Clee Hill area and in 'pre-PC' days was known as 'The niggerin' tune' as the dancers went out with blacked-up faces and called it 'Goin' out a-niggerin' The use of the term molly instead of morris,was common in Shropshire and I have met people who remembers 'Going out molly-dancing' in East Shropshire in the 1930s-40s ' And something else that I said later on in the same thread: 'Finally, a few people have said that it would be interesting to hear from a black person what they feel about all of this. Well, the article from EDS that I quoted earlier interviewed several people about the practice, including a dance caller named Nigel Hogg. This is what he had to say: "I have watched many different dance groups around the country, and on certain occasions I have seen groups black up to perform. As a mixed race man I do find this tradition offensive because I see it as a parody mocking people of colour. I would imagine that the people who perform these dances are not racists, and on some levels the people involved have not even though about the implications these dances might have to people of colour." ' |
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Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: GUEST Date: 15 Oct 14 - 10:28 AM If no-one can show that blacked up dancers are intending to cause offence then not letting them be could be seen as the thin end of a wedge. Who said anything about "not letting them" black-up? It's up to them what they do: I just wish they'd see sense and drop the blackface. Not the thin end of the wedge at all - just a suggestion that they consider ditching a wholly unnecessary part of their artificially resuscitated "tradition". Tell me precisely how a morris man, dressing up in a tatter jacket, putting heavy boots and bell pads on, wearing a hat decorated with flowers and feathers, and painiting their face is in ANY WAY demeaning to someone of a different ethnic origin or skin colour? As I said, the face paint is just part of the kit! Perhaps putting feathers in their hat is also indicative of them having issues with pheasants! Regardless of the intent, blackface used for entertainment in the 21st Century cannot escape the racist legacy of minstrelry - even when that is not the intention. We can argue this point till we're blue in the face, but we can't get away from the fact that this unneccessary insistance on respecting some dubious tradition will be refracted though the lens of minstrelry. We can't magic that part of our history away - but we can learn from it. |
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Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe Date: 15 Oct 14 - 10:29 AM Me above |
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Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: GUEST,Reynard Date: 15 Oct 14 - 10:34 AM One point I'd like to make is that the ignorance of the general public towards the origins of blacking up in Border morris is actually downplaying the racists connotations. I have seem many non-folkies (including people from ethnic minorities and those I would generally consider to be very "PC")defending the "disguise" or even the "pagan" explanations! If it was more widely known that traditional practitioners in the early 20thc referred to it as "going n***ering", or that there is strong evidence to suggest a direct link with minstrel shows you can bet there would be a hell of a lot more condemnation. So please no feeling you're hard done by because of the ignorance of the general public. To be honest I think this is partly generational and the issue will resolve itself naturally in the next few years. As current sides are replaced by a younger generation of dancers I cannot imagine there will be many wanting to continue to black-up (unless it's done as part of a costume in a way that cannot possibly be interpreted as racist). |
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Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: Bounty Hound Date: 15 Oct 14 - 10:42 AM 'I cannot imagine there will be many wanting to continue to black-up (unless it's done as part of a costume in a way that cannot possibly be interpreted as racist)' IT ALREADY IS! |
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Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: GUEST,Henry Piper of ottery. Date: 15 Oct 14 - 10:56 AM Apologies , I said I was going to bow out, but Reynards post above has caused me to add one final item. I agree that if all new Border Morris teams were to leave off the painted faces black or otherwise, it would be more comfortable for everyone, and some of the histories I have read indicate that not all border Morris teams did black up, so its certainly not essential. Reynard mentions current sides being replaced by a younger generation, but the sad truth is that most of the newer sides are in fact Border Morris Type Sides mostly with black faces, there are fewer and fewer Cotswold sides being Started, whilst the border teams continue to proliferate. With its simpler dance structures and looser more improvised form together with the exhibitionist nature of some teams it does seem to have captured the imagination of a largely younger membership so I fear what Reynard Hopes for will not come to pass. |
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Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: GUEST,punkfolkrockagainstracismer Date: 15 Oct 14 - 11:06 AM "You're a racist" "NO I'm not" "YES you are" "no I'm not" "yes you are" "no I'm not" "yes you are" "no I'm not" "yes you are" "no I'm not, in fact you're the racist for insisting that I'm a racist" "no I'm not" "yes you are" "no I'm not" "yes you are" "no I'm not" "yes you are".............. etc....etc...etc...... ########################################################## Here's one for fans of the Basil Brush tradition of humour... Black up morris dancer's favourite rock ' n' roll song ? "Good Golly Mr Molly" |
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Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: GUEST,Derrick Date: 15 Oct 14 - 11:56 AM The article at this address gives a reasonably balanced view on the history of border morris and historical references to blacking up in the history of dance. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_Morris I read it as saying the jury is undecided as to how much if any influence minstrelry had on the matter,it was clearly around before the early 1800's. Read it and make up your own mind. |
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Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: GUEST,Reynard Date: 15 Oct 14 - 11:57 AM Bounty Hound I appreciate that you feel it is wrong for anyone to interpret border morris blacking up as racist, and that it is not the intention to be racist. But you must know the connotations that such an activity now carries for a lot of people. Is it not better to be pragmatic and compromise on this small aspect for the "greater good"? I was referring to the teams mentioned earlier by Phil, where the black face is part of an overall outlandish costume- not likely to be associated with minstrelsy etc. This creates a different effect to (for example) "the Shropshire Bedlams", where the team is dressed in jeans, trainers and rag jackets, with only their faces blacked. Certainly watching them as part of festival parades, I have felt there were visual parallels with a minstrel show that I found disquieting. Would a "Shropshire Bedlams" starting in 2014 rather than the early 70s choose that combination? Anyway, I feel like the opinions on both sides of this debate are rather fixed and ultimately it's up to individuals to justify their actions- but don't be surprised if you have to keep justifying this particular choice over and over. |
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Subject: RE: Black-faced Morris dancers From: Bounty Hound Date: 15 Oct 14 - 12:25 PM 'Is it not better to be pragmatic and compromise on this small aspect for the "greater good"?' So what do you think is the reaction of most people when they see a morris side then Reynard, 'oh look, there's a morris side' perhaps, or 'oh look there's a group of people with black faces, so they must be racist' (actually, and sadly, the reaction from a lot is probably 'look at that bunch of prats') I fully accept that there will be some morris men who are racist, just there will also be some fishermen, or railway modelers who are racist, but I really don't think that the mass population look at a morris side and see a racist image, do you? after all, as I've said several times, the face paint is just a small part of the overall picture. Wish I'd never mentioned the bl..dy pheasants though! |
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