BS: Anyone Here from Ottawa?

Subject: BS: Anyone Here from Ottawa?
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 Oct 14 - 09:15 PM

There is such a thing as being too tight-lipped, you know.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone Here from Ottawa?
From: meself
Date: 23 Oct 14 - 12:16 AM

I don't live there, although I have a brother there, some relatives and no doubt some friends I've lost touch with ....

Anything I could say (about the cold-blooded murder of a reservist and a one-man attack on the Parliament Building) would be just a statement of the obvious, or a sputtering declamation of how different things would be if I ran the country.

Having said that, I do, in this instance, actually have some faith in our authorities to follow this up with practical, sensible measures to deal with the threat of Islamist lunatics, without getting carried away.

The one pleasant surprise that came out of this was that it was Parliament's "Sergeant-at-Arms", Kevin Vickers, who shot and killed the attacker. Most of us, I'm sure, regarded his as merely a ceremonial role: a suitably grave fellow heading for the end of his working life, required to dress up like a 'town-crier', and strut along with the golden mace over his shoulder at the opening of Parliament .... Turns out he's not a man to trifle with ....

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone Here from Ottawa?
From: GUEST,#
Date: 23 Oct 14 - 12:49 AM

Kevin Vickers has 30 years with law enforcement. If reports are accurate, this is the first time he's fired a weapon in the performance of his duties. Good guy to have around when it hits the fan.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone Here from Ottawa?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Oct 14 - 01:05 AM

Here's a link to the Reuters story and an excerpt:

(Reuters) - A gunman attacked Canada's parliament on Wednesday, with gunfire erupting near where Prime Minister Stephen Harper was speaking, and a soldier was fatally shot at a nearby war memorial, stunning the Canadian capital.

The gunman in the parliament building was shot dead, and Harper was safely removed in incidents that may have been linked to Islamic militants.

Witness accounts indicated the man who shot dead the soldier guarding the National War Memorial in central Ottawa, went on to attack the parliament building minutes later. Canadian police said however they could not "at this point" confirm it was the same person.

The shootings followed an attack on two soldiers in Quebec on Monday carried out by a convert to Islam. Two U.S. officials said U.S. agencies had been advised the dead gunman in Wednesday's shootings was also a Canadian convert to Islam.

Witnesses said a flurry of shots were fired after a gunman entered the parliament building, pursued by police.

The assault took place very near the room where Harper was meeting with members of his Conservative party, a government minister said.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone Here from Ottawa?
From: Rapparee
Date: 23 Oct 14 - 08:51 AM

If the picture I've seen is accurate, he was using a lever action rifle and not a "military grade" weapon. This would hold, in 30-30 caliber, six shots -- more than is needed in this incident. Most of the shots, then, would have been fired by the police. If there is anyone who comes out of this well it's Vickers...someone who could and did act under pressure.

I'm surprised he was armed.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone Here from Ottawa?
From: Rapparee
Date: 23 Oct 14 - 09:12 AM

Let's not forget Nathan Cirillo.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone Here from Ottawa?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 23 Oct 14 - 09:30 AM

Of course Charmion and CET (Edmund) are our Mudcat Ottawans.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone Here from Ottawa?
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 23 Oct 14 - 10:32 AM

Spoke to a relative in Ottawa last evening. People there are both saddened and angered by this event. The shooting of an unarmed soldier at a war memorial was a despicable and cowardly act.
The sargeant at Arms appears to be the hero of this story as he persued and shot the suspect.
When will this mindless terrorism stop.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone Here from Ottawa?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 23 Oct 14 - 01:35 PM

Man, I mean, Canada? Really? Canada?

I am shocked, shocked. And saddened. Welcome to the real world.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone Here from Ottawa?
From: Charmion
Date: 23 Oct 14 - 01:39 PM

CET and I live in Ottawa.

I missed getting caught in the lock-down of the Rideau Centre, a few hundred metres from the National War Memorial, by being too damned lazy to go to the gym at my usual time, 9:45 a.m. My sister-in-law called from work just after 11:00 a.m. to tell me what was going on and ask after my brother Andrew (not her husband) because Andrew works on Parliament Hill. That was the first I heard of the still-unfolding events.

Mr Vickers, the Sergeant-at-Arms, is no mere "ceremonial" personage, despite his cocked hat and Geneva bands; he is actually the commanding officer of the Parliamentary security force. He left the Royal Canadian Mounted Police at the high rank of superintendant to take the post, after a long career that included significant service in close protection as well as major criminal investigations and negotiating the stand-down of the Aboriginal protest over fishing rights at Burnt Church, New Brunswick.

Mr Vickers did not chase down the man with the rifle; he ducked into his office for his pistol and ran to intercept him before he could get into one of the caucus rooms that open off the Hall of Honour. Mr Vickers did not fire the fatal shot -- that came from an RCMP weapon -- but he did hit the gunman.

As for poor Cpl Cirillo, he was a target of opportunity, like the two CF members mown down in that parking lot in Saint-Jean-sur-Richelieu.

Confederation Square and Wellington Street were still closed to traffic this morning. The CBC is doing all platitudes all the time, on radio, TV and Internet. All security people are twitchy today: when a man crossed the yellow crime-scene tape to approach the National War Memorial this morning as the Prime Minister was laying a wreath, the cops took him down like Dobermans on a dropped sausage.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone Here from Ottawa?
From: GUEST,Charmion's brother Andrew
Date: 23 Oct 14 - 02:27 PM

The Sergeant-at-Arms has long been the officer of the House who is in charge of "precinct services," everything from architects to carpenters to security officers. It is no sinecure. It used to go to retired generals, but since 2001 people high up have understood that someone with police credentials would be a good idea.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone Here from Ottawa?
From: maeve
Date: 23 Oct 14 - 04:32 PM

Thank you, Charmion and Andrew.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone Here from Ottawa?
From: Ed T
Date: 23 Oct 14 - 05:34 PM

A sad and worrying situation- one that tasks Canada's innocence, free society and long respected institutions.

In respect for those directly involved, many thoughts and perspectives on what likely led up to this unfortunate situation are mostly "on hold".

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone Here from Ottawa?
From: Nancy King
Date: 23 Oct 14 - 05:57 PM

Glad to hear from you, Charmion! I've been thinking about you and Edmund (as the only Ottawans I know). Your details really make a lot more sense than much of the stuff on the news. A dreadful business, surely!

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone Here from Ottawa?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Oct 14 - 06:34 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone Here from Ottawa?
From: olddude
Date: 23 Oct 14 - 07:03 PM

That was horrible my thoughts and prayers are with the family of the fallen ... what a rotten world we live in today

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone Here from Ottawa?
From: Ed T
Date: 23 Oct 14 - 07:45 PM

There ux a fair amount oc information on the CBC website today that gives
More details, including the one below:

A CBC report from this afternoon: 

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone Here from Ottawa?
From: meself
Date: 23 Oct 14 - 07:59 PM

Btw, no Canadians have forgotten about Nathan Cirillo - nor will they.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone Here from Ottawa?
From: Ed T
Date: 23 Oct 14 - 08:16 PM

""... no Canadians have forgotten about Nathan Cirillo - nor will they.""

Nor will Canadians forget Patrice Vincent, who was killed by a terrorist in Quebec on Monday.

Patrice Vincent, soldier killed in St-Jean-sur-Richelieu 

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone Here from Ottawa?
From: ChanteyLass
Date: 23 Oct 14 - 08:23 PM

I, too, have been saddened by this news.

When I travel afar, it is as a single within a tour group that consists mostly of couples. Often some couples take me under their wings, asking me to join them at their dinner table when we are seated at small tables instead of in large groups. One such couple was from Ottowa: he a retired Mountie, she a retired librarian. We corresponded for a while after that trip, but as time passes the correspondence dwindled. However, they have been in my thoughts as have all the people of Canada.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone Here from Ottawa?
From: Charmion
Date: 23 Oct 14 - 09:25 PM

Warrant Officer Patrice Vincent was a member of the Royal Canadian Air Force, a firefighter by trade. He was not a soldier.

Sigh.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone Here from Ottawa?
From: Ed T
Date: 24 Oct 14 - 06:03 AM

Correct Charmion. (My mistake comes from the common error in refering to all miltary folks as solders-especially since Canadian military unification and sharing of the former Army-colour uniforms for work). Thanks for the correction. My son, who is in the Cdn. Air Force would not be impressed by my mistake).

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone Here from Ottawa?
From: Ed T
Date: 24 Oct 14 - 06:17 AM

An example, from a Canadian newspaper today, of the mistaken reference to all military personnel as "solders".

Halifax soldiers say their service has always been more than a uniformSELENA ROS 

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone Here from Ottawa?
From: Ed T
Date: 24 Oct 14 - 07:49 AM

""(Prime Minister, Harper) told the House of Commons on Thursday that Canada's law and policing powers need to be strengthened in the areas of surveillance, detention and arrest. He said work is already under way to provide law enforcement agencies with "additional tools" and that work will now be expedited.""


New legislation being considered? 

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone Here from Ottawa?
From: Charmion
Date: 24 Oct 14 - 08:35 AM

a thorough after-action review of the events in the Hall of Honour is a good idea, and I'm sure it's already under way, but now is a bad time for a major revision of public security law.

Scared legislators tend to make bad decisions.

Canadians treat the grounds of the Parliament Buildings as their personal front yard, and that's a good thing. Everybody likes seeing families with little kids hanging out with coolers and picnic blankets on Canada Day, and the gangs of yoga enthusiasts working out at lunch time on a weekday in summer. But a bit more obvious security presence would not be resented, if done right.

The royal palace in Oslo sits in the middle of a large park in the middle of the city, a couple of blocks from the Storting (Norwegian parliament). When I was last there, 20 years ago, the park was patrolled by pairs of handsome young soldiers who wore fancy hats with business-like workdress uniforms. They smiled and greeted visitors, asked where you're from and if you're having a nice vacation. They carried machine pistols and were obviously fit, capable and watchful as well as friendly. Every door to the building was guarded by yet more nice young soldiers.

Maintaining a security posture that active takes time, training and effort, and the troops have to be carefully taught to be watchful without being confrontational or overtly suspicious. But if they could do it in Norway ...

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone Here from Ottawa?
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 24 Oct 14 - 09:50 AM

I have been thinking a lot about some of the comments made here one of which says Welcome to the real world. I did reflect on that rather a lot and I have concluded that the world of murderous fanatics, terrorists, cowards, nutters and amoral people is NOT the real world. We are the real world, people like most of us, who go about our daily lives without hate or rancour. Millions of us the world over love our children, our spouses and we care for our parents. We go out to work each day to support our loved ones, we embraces our various faiths and beliefs without judgeing or excluding others. We partake of and enjoy the many cultures around us. We do not take guns to the mall, we do not denigrate the beliefs of others, we don't spew venom and bigotry. We just get on with our rather simple and uneventful lives. We are the good guys and WE are the real world...not the crazies, they are an aberration not the norm.
   Just my thoughts on the subject.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone Here from Ottawa?
From: Charmion
Date: 24 Oct 14 - 10:46 AM

More on the gunman's entry to the Centre Block:

As he ran up the stairs and entered the ceremonial doorway, the unarmed Parliamentary constable guarding it intercepted him, grabbed for the rifle, and began yelling, "Gun! Gun! Gun!" The gunman shot the constable in the leg.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone Here from Ottawa?
From: meself
Date: 24 Oct 14 - 10:54 AM

Speaking of which, it has emerged that both of these recent Canadian Islamist murderers were mentally unstable, if not certifiably mentally ill, and both had drug-abuse problems. Bibeau, the one who attacked the Parliament Building, was a low-life crackhead living in a homeless shelter; he had been banned from one mosque, which had to change its locks to keep him out, for his anti-social behaviour. A fellow-Moslem at the homeless shelter said that for the several days leading to the attack, Bibeau had been "back on the drugs", and talking nonsensically about "the end of the world". Such is the stuff Islamist martyrs are made of.

It does appear that Bibeau may have had an accomplice, or handler - someone who helped him to acquire, or supplied him with, a car and a gun.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone Here from Ottawa?
From: meself
Date: 24 Oct 14 - 11:00 AM

The way I heard it, the guard pushed the gun down; at which point, he was shot in the leg - whether Bibeau deliberately shot him or whether the gun just 'went off' is unclear - at least, it was unclear in the report I heard. Not that it makes much difference. Brave guard, either way - inspiring to see courage in action.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone Here from Ottawa?
From: Charmion
Date: 24 Oct 14 - 11:06 AM

Correct, meself: the drill is to push down the barrel of the weapon to prevent a spray of bullets that would hit bystanders. My guess is that's why the constable was hit in the leg; the gunman was already squeezing the trigger.

Rifles don't "just go off".

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone Here from Ottawa?
From: meself
Date: 24 Oct 14 - 11:22 AM

Which is why I put "went off" in quotation marks - I suppose I should have known better and detailed any possible series of movements which could have led to the gunman's squeezing/pressing the trigger, or proceeding with an already-initiated squeezing of the trigger, without a deliberate intent on the part of the gunman to shoot a certain target.

This is why I love Mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone Here from Ottawa?
From: Rapparee
Date: 24 Oct 14 - 11:30 AM

If it was, as I have read, a Winchester lever-action rifle, then the hammer would have had to be cocked for it to go off. Not much of a trigger squeeze is needed. But I suspect that this fool had his finger on the trigger all the time and I'm surprised that no one else was injured or killed -- any of each is too many.

I wondered how he would have gotten a firearm, Canadian laws being what they are. A "straw man" buy could account for that, as would theft at some time.

A lever action is not a preferred weapon these days -- not much magazine capacity and slow to reload, it's more of a hunting weapon. But then, anything can become a weapon....

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone Here from Ottawa?
From: Charmion
Date: 24 Oct 14 - 12:17 PM

Sorry for being such a pedant, meself. I failed to note your "scare quotes" -- my bad.

Rapparee, you are thinking like every cop in Canada. As a person "known to police" with several convictions and an obvious and well-documented mental illness, Bibeau was not even close to qualified for a Firearms Acquisition Certificate.

Enquiring minds want to know exactly which fool failed to keep the Winchester correctly stored under lock and key, or was so estranged from common sense as to actually give it to Bibeau.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone Here from Ottawa?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 24 Oct 14 - 08:05 PM

I'm with you, HiLo.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone Here from Ottawa?
From: PHJim
Date: 25 Oct 14 - 12:29 AM

Innocent people are killed by not so innocent people every day, and I agree that it's a tragedy this time and every time.
This is a tragic incident for sure, but not tragic enough to go to war over. The perpetrator, a mentally disturbed man with a criminal record, not a part of a terrorist conspiracy, is dead and so is an innocent man and there have been in the past and, unfortunately, will be more crazy people doing things just as bad and worse in the future.
Remember the École Polytechnique massacre? Remember the innocent Palestinian non-combatants killed by bombs in the not so distant past? Remember three mounted policemen who died unnecessarily in Moncton last June? What about the 22 year old man who was stabbed, beheaded and cannibalized while riding a Greyhound bus in Manitoba or the Chinese student who was dismembered and had his body parts mailed to different locations. All of these were every bit as tragic as the Ottawa incident, but none of them made us change our way of life, nor should this. It's not an Islamic conspiracy, it's a disturbed, mentally ill individual who may or may not have been influenced by Monday's assassination in Quebec.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone Here from Ottawa?
From: bobad
Date: 25 Oct 14 - 08:02 AM

"In recent years, Mr. Zehar-Bibeau regularly found refuge at the Beacon, a shelter in Vancouver run by the Salvation Army. Mr. Jarjapka, a peer counselor at the charity's shelters, said he spoke with him often, and described him as immersed both in his faith and in a pitched struggle with addiction.

"He was doing heroin to take the edge off the crack," he said.

Mr. Zehar-Bibeau spoke constantly of his frustration with the involvement of the United States in the Middle East, he said, and the two feuded regularly over his support of the Islamic State. His arguments were extreme — American bombing in Syria, was the moral equivalent of bombing a loaded school bus in the United States, he told Mr. Jarjapka — but they were not delusional.

"His viewpoint was bizarre," he said. "The guy was not deranged. He was articulate. he was intelligent. His rationale was warped."

NY Times

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone Here from Ottawa?
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 25 Oct 14 - 10:25 AM

A number of reliable sources have connected this man to religious groups who are fanatical in hating the west. He was denied permission to leave Canada to fight with extremists in the Middle east.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone Here from Ottawa?
From: GUEST,Charmion's brother Andrew
Date: 25 Oct 14 - 12:06 PM

According to the CBC, Zehar-Bibeau was trying to renew his Libyan passport, but the consulate denied his application because of various problems (the photos did bear a sufficient resemblance, for a start). The consulate informed the Department of Foreign Affairs of his failed application.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone Here from Ottawa?
From: GUEST,Charmion's brother Andrew
Date: 25 Oct 14 - 12:17 PM

Sorry, that should read, "the photos did not bear a sufficient resemblance."

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone Here from Ottawa?
From: bobad
Date: 25 Oct 14 - 05:11 PM

A video explaining how Kevin Vickers managed to subdue the gunman....pretty dramatic, not to mention heroic, on his part.

How Kevin Vickers managed to subdue Ottawa gunman

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone Here from Ottawa?
From: bobad
Date: 25 Oct 14 - 05:21 PM

I drove by the Parliament buildings today and was happy to see that the grounds bustling with the activity of the public enjoying themselves once again. I would hate to see a fortress like mentality set in - that would be very un-Canadian.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone Here from Ottawa?
From: Ed T
Date: 25 Oct 14 - 06:51 PM

An interesting perspective by a Canadian journalist.

Quote from article:
""The best way to look at the past week is as a trial run, a dress rehearsal for the real thing. We got off relatively lightly this time. We may not be so lucky the next. ""Andrew Coyne

Attacks may be a dress rehearsal for the real thing 

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone Here from Ottawa?
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 26 Oct 14 - 09:07 AM

That is a very interesting and thought provoking article. Thank you for sharing it.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone Here from Ottawa?
From: bobad
Date: 26 Oct 14 - 09:36 AM

In the wake of the recent horrific events in Ontario the CBC sent a reporter to interview a "moderate" Muslim, Dr. Jamal Badawi, a retired business professor and an Imam in Halifax, Nova Scotia, to set the record straight that these apparent ISIL loving nutballs have nothing to do with the true Muslim faith. These are his his views: Moderate words from a moderate Halifax Muslim .

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone Here from Ottawa?
From: Ed T
Date: 26 Oct 14 - 10:16 AM

While the article may be above board, Bobad, the Nova Scotia gossip tabloid, Frank Magazine, is not recognized for either accuracy in content nor quality in reporting. I feel it is important to add that about this media source, for those who are not aware of the publication.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone Here from Ottawa?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 26 Oct 14 - 11:18 AM

Looking more and more like a mental illness issue, not a radicalization issue. Thanks for all the links, very interesting reading.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone Here from Ottawa?
From: bobad
Date: 26 Oct 14 - 11:31 AM

Ed T, if you have any information that refutes that stated in the article it would behoove you to share it with us.

I might add that I was alerted to this article by a member of the Muslim community who avers that the views of Imam Badawi are the rule rather than the exception of "moderate" Imams in Canada.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone Here from Ottawa?
From: Ed T
Date: 26 Oct 14 - 11:42 AM

Note that I never stated that there is any need to refute the article Bobad.

However, I felt that it is important to note the background on the source, to let people make up their own minds. I have had personal experience with questionable journalism from this publication in the past,.

Some good journalism likely, at times, comes from gossip magazines. But, one should not "bet the farm" on that happening on a frequent basis.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone Here from Ottawa?
From: Ed T
Date: 26 Oct 14 - 11:48 AM

I was reading this article, and began to think of ISIS more of a religious cult than a terrorist group. Considering the mental background of the two people involved in the Canadian attacks, there may be an answer as to why the ISIS cause would seem attractive. But, this is just anon-professional " hunch" on my part.


who joins cults 

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone Here from Ottawa?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Oct 14 - 12:04 PM

Perhaps a report from the CBC News is more acceptable.
"Ottawa Shooting: Canadian Muslims Denounce Attacks." October 23, 2014.
Isaan Gardee, executive director of National Council of Canadian Muslims, denounced the attacks in a news conference. Ottawa area imans denounced the attack.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone Here from Ottawa?
From: meself
Date: 26 Oct 14 - 01:01 PM

In cases like these, I don't know how you can distinguish between the mental illness and the Islamist extremism (or whatever form the extremism takes) - they seem to have been intertwined in the minds in question. As further information emerges, perhaps neater conclusions can be drawn, but I don't see it so far.

There seems to be a thought in some quarters that because these guys were more or less crazy, their political/religious/terroristic motives are inconsequential, and in fact, should not be spoken of. I feel that   because Islamist extremism/terrorism is so prominent right now as an option for crazies, it needs all the more attention.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone Here from Ottawa?
From: meself
Date: 26 Oct 14 - 01:04 PM

Addendum: Undoubtedly, far more attention and money needs to be assigned to the diagnosis and treatment of mental illness than is the case at present.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone Here from Ottawa?
From: bobad
Date: 26 Oct 14 - 01:15 PM

Couldn't agree with you more, meself.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone Here from Ottawa?
From: Ed T
Date: 26 Oct 14 - 03:15 PM

Just something to stimulate thought, nothing more:

There are a wide spectrum of attitudes in most communities, whether it be religious, non-religious, Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Jewish-and one could go on.

Why should it be a surprise that a variety of prespectives exists among the global and western Muslim community? And, is it reasonable to expect that one persons perspective would define any religion or broad community viewpoint on complex issues -regardless of what one would wish it to be?

For example, would a RC bishop's (in Rome or locally) views on birth control be reflective of the views of the entire RC community on birth control?

Are we trying to be simplistic in putting everything in a nutshell, a speaking point, or, an interview or two- or, is it much more complex than that?