BS: Vegan mudcatters

Subject: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: Peter Kasin
Date: 24 Oct 14 - 02:02 PM

Hello, 'Catters -

This past mid-July, I started a vegan diet, plus eschewing (opposite of "chewing"? ha, ha) all sweets and bread. I had been reading more on plant-based diets, learning much about environmental concerns as well as ethical concerns of meat-centered diets.I had been pescatarian (occasional seafood0 since 2008.

I decided to go on a completely plant-based diet after being blindsided with a type 2 diabetes diagnosis mid-July. Seeing how important it is to protect my kidney and my heart, a plant-based diet of vegetables, legumes and allowed fruits, augmented with B12 and D supplements, would lower stress on the kidney and heart. There are good books on what vegans need to do to get the vitamins and minerals needed.

After two months, when re-tested, my doctor was amazed! All the numbers went down to normal range. He said "You're an inspiration." My energy and stamina have gone up, and I haven't felt this fit in years.

Normally I would not post anything about my health. I only do this to suggest that anyone here facing type 2 diabetes might want to consider a plant-based diet. It has shown to help many people, and in some cases, completely reverse diabetes and heart disease. Of course, consult with your doctor.

...and it helps the environment, not to mention the animals!.Now I'm transitioning from leather shoes and belts into synthetic (though at work as a park Ranger, I'm required to wear NPS uniform belts, hat straps, and such. Any other vegan 'Mudcatters here, or those considering? Feel free to post ideas, recipes, your own journey?

-Chanteyranger

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 24 Oct 14 - 02:42 PM

I'm not vegan, but I applaud your decision and will power to go for it. I have been trying to veer "wholefood plant-based" for quite a while, though it can sometimes be a case of two steps forward and one back.

A couple of years ago I cut out all meat, dairy and eggs; my asthma symptoms and the stiffness and pain I'd begun to develop in hips and knees literally disappeared within a couple of months. I reintroduced dairy and eggs at a reduced level subsequently however.

Now my dairy intake is quite a lot lower than it once was, maybe once a week if that. Routinely I use non-dairy 'milk', 'butter' and 'cream' - and yoghurt too if I can get hold of the stuff I like. No eggs or cheese for me any more. I use ground flax seeds in baking instead of eggs, and I prefer scrambled tofu to scrambled eggs. I use Nutritional Yeast instead of parmesan on my pasta nowadays, it's very good stuff! No 'meat' as such either, though I do now eat fish about once a week as we frequently get given it via his extended family, some of whom are farmers and fishermen.

My long term goal is to go fully vegan. I feel like I'm gradually chipping away at it bit by bit and I'll get there in the end. While I understand the value of boycotting industries you don't support, I still have mixed feelings about free food/freeganism (eg: the fish we get given) and the potential waste that rejecting it could imply. So there are some complications, but vegan - or more specifically 'wholefood plant-based' - is where I see myself ultimately.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 24 Oct 14 - 02:47 PM

PS: No bread? No way! I'm too big a fan of my carbs, though I do go for Wholegrain Everything rather than eating the refined white stuff, which can hit your bloodstream with sugar quite heavily.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Oct 14 - 03:02 PM

I eat less and less meat all of the time, and have been meaning to find grass fed beef and free range organic chicken for the meat that I do eat. You have to hunt around for those, even in large cities.

I'm an organic gardener and grow things I can or freeze for year round consumption. I haven't reached the point of no-meat, and I would probably continue to eat eggs and dairy even if I cut it out, but the state of the American food supply is increasingly distressing, and is motivation to make major changes.

Congratulations on your improved test numbers!

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: Peter Kasin
Date: 24 Oct 14 - 03:17 PM

Thanks for posting, CS. Yes, everyone goes at their own pace. It took me years to change my diet. Going all plant-based, or partially - whichever works for each individual, is a better choice than the standard daily meat eating diet, I believe. I'm not on the no carb craze either. I just don't eat bread as it's not good for diabetes due to the the flour being absorbed into the bloodstream and turning to sugar too quickly, plus I was gaining too much weight. That's apart from my decision to go plant-based. Whole grain carbs I get from legumes, barley, oats and other intact grains....and I used to be a sandwich freak. Didn't think I could ever live without bread.

I'm not familiar with freeganism.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 24 Oct 14 - 03:23 PM

as an omnivour and environmentalist, I have to disagree with the premise that a vegan diet is environmentally sound. Makes a good sound bite, but fails in the real world... at least in the one we are in today with a population that is already straining resources.

"A whole-food, plant-based diet is centered on whole, unrefined, or minimally refined plants. It's a diet based on fruits, vegetables, tubers, whole grains, and legumes; and it excludes or minimizes meat (including chicken and fish), dairy products, and eggs, as well as highly refined foods like bleached flour, refined sugar, and oil."

This sounds pretty close to the Mediterranean diet which is more moderate and does not exclude animal products.

If you want to live healthier... get Monsanto lobbyists out of politics... or it won't just be cereal grains that they muck about with. To many vegetables and fruits are already inferior because the varieties have been altered to meet packing and shipping requirements over nutritional value and flavor. Pretty doesn't cut it, not when it's all cosmetic and achieved with pesticides.

Be very careful what you ask for, because you may not really like what you get.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Oct 14 - 03:44 PM

Good response. The Mediterranean diet is a rational approach to eating.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 24 Oct 14 - 03:54 PM

I find it most alarming to see the rise in food allergies of all kinds... red meat due to tick bites, nut allergies, gluten intolerance... the list grows ever longer.

heck, I know for a fact that I've been sprayed with DDT... they used to go through the streets at night and spray for mosquitoes when I was a kid. Who knows how much mercury and lead I've been exposed to... should look into getting those last silver almalgam fillings replaced...

Of ccourse, to keep it in some small perspective... the first major air pollutant on our plant was oxygen gas... we went from a reducing to an oxidizing environment and toasted a whole bunch of non- photosynthesizing beasties... maybe our turn is coming quicker than we thought.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: Peter Kasin
Date: 24 Oct 14 - 06:19 PM

I recommend the documentary Forks Over Knives, which addresses environmental concerns as well as issues around cardiovascular disease. It features some of the contemporary pioneering doctors and scientists advocating a plant-based diet. Their contention is that meat consumption is straining resources. But hey, whether mediterranean, lacto-ovo, vegan, it's all an improvement over the Standard American Diet ( or "SAD").

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Oct 14 - 08:31 PM

40 year old Vegan makes UK news Headlines today...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-29755547

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: Peter Kasin
Date: 25 Oct 14 - 02:28 AM

OMG, punkfolkrocker, that clip is amazing, funny, and sweet!

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 25 Oct 14 - 05:50 AM

Chanteyranger, I've seen Forks over Knives too, it's quite good - based strongly on The China Study book I believe. Every few months in the UK - or so it seems - some new study comes out that shows vegetarian lifestyles help to prevent pretty much all the major killers common to the modern West: such as heart disease, diabetes, some forms of cancer and so-on.

While it's true that like pigs, we are omnivorous and thereby *able* to consume pretty much anything we can find or scavenge, unlike cats say, we're not natural born carnivores; we are slow, we have no claws, no genuinely sharp teeth (try killing a rabbit in one swift bite with human 'canines'), we have to cook our meat to make it edible, we have long intestine more suited to plant foods and so on. As such I don't think the human body was designed to cope with the vast quantities of meat typical to the SAD (you could equally read that as 'Standard Western Diet' but SAD makes a better sounding acronym!) However it also seems clear, that are bodies do require *some* non-plant foods to keep us topped up with B12 which I believe is the only nutrient that we can't synthesise from plant sources. From what I've read, historical proto-humans being pretty smart, would do much as some tribes still do, and that is make use of 'found' animal foods; insects, grubs and worms - and also molluscs if near the sea - things you can dig out of the ground and forage for with nimble fingers that are able to grasp and manipulate (just check out that lovely gorilla carefully picking off her favourite bits to munch on!), all stuff we are good at and perfectly adapted for.

So I think there's certainly a case for arguing that we are adapted to have *some* animal products in our diet and that a couple of ounces say, may be fine and not harmful, but it really should be only a little for optimum health - a handful grubs as a little side dish! Certainly nothing like bacon and eggs for breakfast, ham sandwiches for lunch and beef stew for dinner, which some people seem to think is just fine, because 'protein.' Honestly, where did this obsession with protein originate, no-one seems to ask "where do you get your vitamins and minerals?"

Anyway sorry if I took your thread off on a tangent. As humans are pretty smart, we are able to make foods fortified with B12, so there's really no *need* in the modern world for any animal foods in the diet. I have nutritional yeast which is a great product if you haven't already found it, naturally high in B vits but usually can be found fortified with B12. Definitely try it, it's good stuff. I've made vegan pate with it (along with sunflower seeds, carrots and potatoes) super tasty!

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: Musket
Date: 25 Oct 14 - 06:06 AM

Interesting bit about the Mediterranean diet.

A director of public health I used to work with (Dr Richard Richards) wrote a PhD thesis years ago about Greece. His mother is Greek and he looked at mortality and morbidity in Greece over time compared to prevalence of junk food availability. Dates of first McDonalds and Burger King and over the years how changes in diet of younger people led to earlier cancers and coronary heart disease in that generation.

Fascinating reading.

I'm not personally too interested in a vegan diet, nor indeed vegetarian but the health benefits of the variations in diet tend to couple to being varied and in moderation. Hence health benefits. Many of which can be achieved with meat.

But it's a choice and choices deserve respect.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 25 Oct 14 - 09:45 AM

What are your favourite veg meals Chanteylass?

We've got a huge love of Cajun rice & beans at the moment. Otherwise known as Hoppin' John. We have this with butternut squash or sweet potatoes and lots of dark greens. Great stuff.

I also make veggie chilli by the bucketload and freeze it up. Lots of spice, including chilli, paprika, cumin and cinnamon. Coffee and cocoa too for a rich 'mole'. I use TVP (aka TSP) the dehydrated soya mince, which while it's not as good as some meat subs it is a handy storecupboard standby, and if cooked slowly in a rich sauce comes out surprisingly well - though I don't use it for quick cooking dishes because it *can* be awful. Of course it bumps up the protein from the beans.

We're big fans of pasta and gnocchi, which are both really quick - even if you knock up a homemade sauce with tinned tomatoes (I find the hands on time is something like ten minutes but the reduction takes an hour.) I always include shed-loads of garlic. And top it off with nutritional yeast. A nice green salad on the side.

Big fan of brown rice salad, it's my fave lunch. And scrambled tofu with curry powder, along with healthy pile of spinach on the side is another. Soups too, can't have too much soup!

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Oct 14 - 11:01 AM

Sciencegeek, I'm pretty sold on the arguments that I've read for the notion that plant based diets are better for the environment. Based on certain studies the UN have been advocating for people to adopt veganism for a few years now:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQlekfaPyaA

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2010/jun/02/un-report-meat-free-diet

Quote: "As the global population surges towards a predicted 9.1 billion people by 2050, western tastes for diets rich in meat and dairy products are unsustainable, says the report from United Nations Environment Programme's (UNEP) international panel of sustainable resource management.
    It says: "Impacts from agriculture are expected to increase substantially due to population growth increasing consumption of animal products. Unlike fossil fuels, it is difficult to look for alternatives: people have to eat. A substantial reduction of impacts would only be possible with a substantial worldwide diet change, away from animal products."
    Professor Edgar Hertwich, the lead author of the report, said: "Animal products cause more damage than [producing] construction minerals such as sand or cement, plastics or metals. Biomass and crops for animals are as damaging as [burning] fossil fuels."

That said, I'm not much of a science geek myself. So I don't know how great the science is that the UN's report was drawn from. CS

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: sciencegeek
Date: 25 Oct 14 - 01:08 PM

well, as a kid I always wondered what the heck happened to the so-called fertile crescent... having noticed that they now seemed to be mostly arid wastelands. Later study and not a few works on the environmental impacts of agriculture helped clarify a number of points.

suffice it to say... modern agriculture is not kind to the environment. As for the feedlot mentality and CAFO - concentrated animal feeding units- that is not sound practice either... and that is what is known as throwing out the baby with the bath water. Why would any sane person think it has to be either all.. all or nothing? Look to nature to see possibilities... and there are very sound reasons why there are predators to keep herbivore populations in check.

The big but here is that there is a lot of land that is perfectly good for raising forests and pastureland that is best utilized in that manner and not put to the plow. Or have we completely forgotten the 1930s Dust Bowl or how rainforests turn to barren mineral soils called latterite when put to the plow?

The land I live on is hilly and the soil in poor shape thanks to the previous owner who grew potatoes. It is now pasture and woodlot and slowly restoring its tilth. With some intensive work, I could grow enough vegetables to feed a few families for a year... providing I eliminate all the hedgerows and the deer and other wildlife that share the land with me. I prefer to share with critters other than my own species.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Oct 14 - 07:51 PM

Well I'm all for anyone who wants to adopting whatever diet they desire, but I'm not for anyone pontificating about the faux-moral high ground of vegetarianism (not that I'm accusing anyone here of that...) Think about it. If the human race went totally veggie, there would be no animal manure for fertiliser. That means billions in the third world relying on massive multinationals selling them artificial fertilisers at inflated prices. We'd end up with massive soil erosion on a scale that would dwarf the dustbowl era. It would also mean taking out billions of hectares of marginal land, especially in hilly areas where agri-machinery is next to useless, land suitable only for grazing and moving herds around on a seasonal basis, which would revert to useless scrub or desert. Yes, I'm all for us eating a lot less meat, especially meat produced on land which used to be rainforest (nice one, obese USA), or meat produced under conditions of more-than-questionable welfare, or meat produced on good arable land, or meat fed on crops grown on arable land that could have fed seven times more humans. This is all about a balance that we have yet to achieve. But let's not have lies about what our bodies were "designed to eat". Cavemen and cavewomen ate tons of flesh whether you like it or not, and we haven't changed much since. Our digestive tract is ill-fitted for a completely veggie diet: it's way too short and it lacks the ability to break down plant cell walls to anything like the degree required for a healthy plant-food intake. On the other hand, our digestive tract is very good at digesting meat and fish. Inconvenient but true. And a vegan has considerable difficulty avoiding deficiencies of certain vitamins and minerals and amino acids. If you're a veggie because you can't stand meat, I applaud you. If you're a veggie because you abhor poor animal welfare, well good, but you can get meat, at a price, that has been produced under humane conditions. If you're a veggie because you think it's nasty to kill and eat poor little fluffy things*, and think that everyone who doesn't think like you is a ruthless bloodthirsty killer, then have another think and get a life!


*I mean, have you SEEN all that fluff on corn-on-the-cob...!

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 26 Oct 14 - 02:54 AM

Dairy free subs are a mixed bag I've found. Some of them are too full of sugar and other additives, so I've been hunting for the best alternatives for a while now.

I had 'Unsweetened Almond Breeze' yesterday for the first time. It's the best dairy-free milk I've tried.

I find Rice Milk and Oat Milk too sweet - just naturally too sweet. While Soya Milk isn't too sweet but it is too chalky, which is fine for cereal but no good for a bechamel sauce IMO.

'Unsweetened Almond Breeze' is both neutral / plain tasting and slightly creamy, but not greasy in the way full fat cow milk is. Just an edge of nuttiness which is fine. But it's much less pronouncedly nutty that Alpro's almond milk.

Very close to semi-skimmed fresh cow milk. I recommend it to anyone looking for a good 'milk-like' milk sub.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Oct 14 - 01:01 PM

I like Alpro Light soya milk, which is unsweetened. The only milk we drink now in our house is semi-skimmed in teas and cappuccinos (soya milk tastes horrible in both!), oh, and when we make ice cream. :-)

We adopted the "Mediterranean diet" (if there is such a thing, which I doubt) about eighteen months ago. I've lost three stones. We have pasta three or four times a week and my repertoire in that regard has expanded beyond recognition. We also east a lot of fish which we buy at our local fishmonger and which is caught in the Atlantic around Cornwall. These days it's mostly olive oil instead of mostly butter, which is what it used to be. Most of our sauces are heavy on tomato and garlic (and chilli) and we use lashings of Parmesan (I'll only use stuff from the Canossa dairy). We definitely eat much less meat than we used to but we have a roast chicken quite often and I have a massive hunk of shoulder of lamb, from the Bude butcher's own flock, in the freezer that I'm lusting after. Maybe next Sunday...

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Oct 14 - 01:03 PM

"East fish"? Not John West then? :-(

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: Firecat
Date: 26 Oct 14 - 03:19 PM

Have to confess, I'm the opposite. I was a strict vegetarian for ten years, and was diagnosed Type 2 diabetic three years ago next month, being put on insulin about a year ago.

Earlier this year, I was led astray by a chicken sandwich, and have been meatist since then. I've noticed a significant drop in my sugars without altering the amount of insulin I take, and have got a bit more energy than I did when I was veggie.

I guess it's different for different people. My husband is veggie for health reasons - highly-processed meat doesn't like him, so it's easier for him to avoid all meat. I tend to stick to non-processed stuff from places where I know the animals were treated properly.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Oct 14 - 06:37 PM

Non-processed is the key. I'll get into the kitchen and process my own stuff, thanks!

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: GUEST,dani
Date: 26 Oct 14 - 07:25 PM

But you do know that most of those cow-milk sub, tasty as they are, are devoid of the protein your bod needs, and the fat it needs to metabolize it? I don't judge healthy adults making healthy choices, but it is hard work to eat healthfully, vegan-y. Most m meat-ish products are very much junk.
Dani

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: Peter Kasin
Date: 27 Oct 14 - 12:31 AM

Guest, CS, I think you were meant me, not ChanteyLass, when asking about my favorite recipes, right? I'm not a lass but I'm married to a lovely one :-). So many good recipes out there. There are two vegan cookbook authors, though, that are the top favorites of mine: Isa Chandra Moskowitz, and Terry Hope Romero. They seem to have a golden touch with every dish they come up with. For a non-vegan vegetarian cookbook (but the recipes are easily adaptable for vegans) my sister wrote one (brotherly plug coming up): Heaven's Banquet, published by Dutton in hardback, and by Plume in paperback.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 27 Oct 14 - 03:47 AM

Sorry Chanteyranger, I got you mixed up with another Chantey of the wrong gender!
Isa seems very popular in the online vegan community, I'm aware of the Post Punk Kitchen too where she got really known.

This is your sister's book presumably? It looks well liked by those who have rated it. I've done macrobiotics, the old 'yin and yang' thing, which seemed to do me good. Never dabbled in Ayurvedic food medicine. It is interesting to note though that these kinds of food-based theraputic disciplines really predated our own western interest in using food as a tool for health and not simply a means of either fuel or pleasure. That is to say, Hippocrates did say 'let food be thy medicine', but our allopathic traditions don't seems to have taken too much notice of that edict until more recent times.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Heavens-Banquet-Vegetarian-Lifelong-Ayurveda/dp/0452282780/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1414399211&sr=

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 27 Oct 14 - 04:19 AM

Dani - it's really not all that hard to get enough protein without meat or dairy. Everything has protein in it. I'm logging my food intake currently, there are a number of free websites and apps that enable you to do so quite easily, though it can be a bit of a faff intitially. I'm using FatSecret. Yesterday I logged *over* my daily requirement for protein - according to WebMD adult women require 46g and I logged 53g - and that was on a virtually-vegan day and with reduced food intake - I logged 1400 calories, which is about 3/4 of my daily calorific needs as I'm losing weight.

daily requirements

I had sugar-free muesli with soya milk for breakfast. Plus apple juice.
A wholemeal wrap stuffed with kidney beans, tomato, spinach greens, and avocado for lunch.
For dinner I had lasagne made with wholewheat pasta, veggie mince ragu and an almond milk bechamel, topped with pangritata (a vegan "poor mans's parmesan" made with breadcrumbs and garlic). Plus a tossed salad.
Later in the evening I had a mug of cocoa made with soya milk.

While everything contributed to my daily protein intake, there was 25g of protein in my portion of lasagne, and 10g in my cocoa alone.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 27 Oct 14 - 06:13 AM

Quote: "We have pasta three or four times a week and my repertoire in that regard has expanded beyond recognition."

We like pasta, but I do tend to stick to pretty basic recipes that I know:
I like puttanesca, with black olives and capers - super easy from storecupboard ingredients. Also penne al'arrabiata (or indeed any pasta shape), with heap loads of chilli. I often make bastardised pesto with whatever herbs I have. Also a basic tomato and garlic most frequently.

Any suggestions for other vegan-friendly ideas?

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 27 Oct 14 - 09:11 AM

love this pasta recipe from a trattoria at Mystic, CT years ago... sadly no longer on the menu.

angel hair pasta cooked al dente

saute garlic in olive oil for a few minutes and then add a loosely torn head of escarole into the pan and cook a few more minutes.

Add a cup or two of chopped tomatoes, a tablespoon of capers and a sprinkle of basil, oregano & thyme.

Bring to a boil then reduce the heat and cover with a tight lid to let it all steam and meld the flavors.

When the escarole is tender, it's done and you can add to the pasta & let it absorb any remaining liquid.

Plate it ... & I like a nice romano cheese grated on top to give it a bit of a bite.

On a different note... too many folks carry on about veganism the way reformed whatevers try to "bring the light" to others. I rarely drink anything alcoholic and have lost more than one family member to alcoholism... but I find I truely resent evangelic teatollers who carry on about the evils of alcohol and look down on anyone who differs with them.

I do not care to eat large amounts of meat, but I do enjoy it and and will use broth, stock and small amounts of meat to enhance my meals. Over the years I have learned what my body needs and at age 63 I have no medical issues other than some osteo-arthrisis I can trace back to old injuries. And at my one and only colonoscopy, the doctor said that whatever I was doing, I should keep it up because I pased with flying colors. All of which I can thank to having "good" genes and a reasonable diet. There is no "magic bullet" that will cure everyone and that includes diet.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 27 Oct 14 - 09:27 AM

Some Monday morning musings:

This thread got me poking around for more information about some of the foods I use. I'm a gardener, I have lots of veggies, but I don't grow grains, rice, corn, etc. I don't have meat or dairy production and I don't raise poultry for meat or eggs. I live on a creek but since it runs through an urban area, I wouldn't eat anything out of it (thought it at least has a lot of diversity).

I have weighed the information on some products and thought I was making a healthy choice, only to realize later that I needed to look beyond what was essentially hype. Case in point: grape seed oil. I thought it was healthy and good for frying, but it is in fact rarely cold pressed, it's usually chemically processed, and it is high in Omega-6. When exposed to the high heat of frying, it undergoes some unhealthy transformation. I bought a bottle recently, thinking using a little in my misto oil sprayer wouldn't be bad, but I'll get rid of it instead. I just read the article linked, and remember a recent conversation on a radio program by my organic gardening guru. They recommend macadamia oil instead.

Here is a well-cited article about the differences between Omega-3 and Omega-6 oils.

I am eating a lot less meat than I used to. I drink whole organic milk and use butter instead of margarine that I grew up on. The oil I use most is olive oil that I buy in 3-litre bottles from a Middle Eastern grocery. Their oil isn't commingled from all around the Mediterranean, it comes from one country at a time, often labelled as the product of a specific town. Much better than "oil from Tunisia, Italy, Greece, Spain, and Turkey." You know that can't turn out well.

I eat a lot of beans and rice, and go in cycles as far as eating pasta. A vegetarian diet with a lot of fruits and vegetables isn't easy - too many adulterated products are out there. Chemical fertilizers and pesticides, and the genetically modified plants like grains mean you have to choose your grain products carefully.

I do eat meat, but more often than not it is an ingredient in a complex dish, it isn't a slab of meat on a plate. I eat wild caught salmon, but since this is more expensive than farm raised, I don't eat as much as I would like. There are other choices - canned fish such as salmon and mackerel and sardines - that can provide healthy omega-3 and protein, and canned fish is quite cost effective. If I ever figure out how my mother made the salmon croquettes she fed us when I was a kid, I'll be in heaven. Moist on the inside, crispy on the outside, and made from inexpensive canned salmon.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 27 Oct 14 - 09:35 AM

P.S., Chanteyranger, I just ordered a copy of your sister's book.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 27 Oct 14 - 10:10 AM

nothing less appealing than croquettes that are dry throughout... I think the secret is mayonnaise...

the texture of the salmon mix should be moist like tuna salad and just firm enough to hold a shape while you roll it in a coating mixture of bread or cracker crumbs. That seems to seal in the moisture and get the crunchy outside. The rest is practice, practice, practice...

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 27 Oct 14 - 11:20 AM

SRS, you're right about the Omega 3 : 6 ratio stuff, which can get way out of whack if you use too much in the way of certain polyunsaturated vegetable oils in particular. It's something I should personally pay close attention to. A good Omega balance promotes healthy brains, and healthy brains are happier and more stable brains.

We're also fortunate in the EU to have mandatory labelling for GM ingredients in foods. Monsanto has spent an absolute fortune on campaigns opposing bills all over the States that would enable the buying public to know whether or not the food they are purchasing and consuming, contains GM ingredients or not. Monsanto have even threatened to sue various States that have tried - based on public demand - to implement bills giving the public the right to know whether or not their food products contain GM ingredients. Just goes to show you that you get as much 'democracy' as you can pay for, eh? The only alternative for people in the States who prefer not to consume GMO's (for whatever reason, as should be their right) is to buy organic, which is a horribly expensive option for anyone on a low to middling income. It's great however that you're able to grow your own. We dabble a bit with easy veg that takes care of itself, but I'd like to do more next year.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 27 Oct 14 - 12:15 PM

there are two organizations that seek to save heritage genomes... Seed Savers Exchange and The Livestock Conservancy... species adapted to local environments and preserving genes that have often disappeared in the commerical breeds/varieties.

Many mail order seed catalogs will have sections of heritage seeds- no GMO there. GMO is valuable tool that is grossly misused by the mega corp agribusiness.

Oh, and just a small aside about potato farming in my neck of the woods... they aren't just growing table potatoes... many acres are planted in "chipping" potatoes.... as in what we here call potato chips... Greasy, over salted slices of deep fried potato that now come in every flavor imaginable. And technically vegan... lol...

And in the counties that lie just south of the Great Lakes, businesses need to register their water withdrawals from the drainage basins... including the vegetable growing farms that rely on irrigation to grow their crops. Those who grow grains rely on "dry farming"... rainfall and snowmelt provide the soil moisure to grow the crops. Raising food of any kind is challenging and under appreciated ... latest bumper sticker... I farm so you can eat. You're welcome.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: Peter Kasin
Date: 27 Oct 14 - 04:23 PM

SRS. Thank you ordering my sister's book! Yes, Guest CS, that's the one. Sciencegeek's post about greasy chips brings up a good point, that one can have a healthy veg diet or a very unhealthy veg diet. I'm currently reading a fascinating book: Salt, Sugar, Fat: How the Food Giants Hooked Us, by Michael Moss. It's investigative reporting at its best. God, how we need more journalists like that. I keep low on oils for the reasons given by others here. Very informative posts, everyone, no matter where you are on the veg / omnivore diets. Thank you all for posting here. Keep 'me coming, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Oct 14 - 07:12 PM

Quote: "We have pasta three or four times a week and my repertoire in that regard has expanded beyond recognition."

We like pasta, but I do tend to stick to pretty basic recipes that I know:
I like puttanesca, with black olives and capers - super easy from storecupboard ingredients. Also penne al'arrabiata (or indeed any pasta shape), with heap loads of chilli. I often make bastardised pesto with whatever herbs I have. Also a basic tomato and garlic most frequently.

Any suggestions for other vegan-friendly ideas?

Begod, you're a person after me own heart! Unfortunately, your puttanesca (aka whore's pasta) omits anchovies, which I regard as sine qua non for that dish (Neapolitans may demur). Whatever, make your own tomato sauce for it with tons of garlic and basil, and don't use too much of it. I like to intensify my tomato sauce by adding sundried tomato paste, but that's just me. I hate claggy pasta dishes. And no bloody parmesan!! As for arrabbiata, avoid the cheapie penne pastas and make sure you buy bronze-die rigatoni. Yes it's more doughy but it's a delicious option. Don't use fresh chillis for arrabbiata: use crushed chilli flakes. Don't diss me 'til you've tried it. It's what Italians do in any case. And by all means go veggie, but I only do two arrabbiata dishes, one with chicken and one with wild keta salmon, the latter added raw to the sauce at the last minute before stirring into the rigatoni.

A very nice Sicilian dish that is veggie is pasta alla Trapanese. You blend skin-on ground almonds (definitely grind your own) with crushed garlic and plenty of it, loads of pestle-and-mortared basil, a worrying-large amount of EV olive oil, parmesan and a truckload of the best raw tomatoes you can get your hands on - cut 'em up. Just squidge the whole bloody lot to smithereens with your bare hands to make a sort of rough, rustic pesto. Stir that into cooked spaghetti and dole out on to warmed bowls. You'll die of happiness, especially if you wash it down with some Sicilian red.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Oct 14 - 07:22 PM

I should have said that you could use pecorino instead of the parmesan. It definitely adds a perky touch with a tangy hit, which I love. The missus isn't keen, unfortunately, which is why I stick to parmesan. There are no rules.

Well, please the missus. That isn't such a bad rule. At times. I do have limits.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 27 Oct 14 - 11:18 PM

This discussion reminded me of a favorite I haven't made in a while - eggplant Parmesan. I grow my own aubergine and have various ways of using them. The breaded and fried is pretty greasy, but I freeze the breaded cooked slices then pull out a couple, warm and serve with a plate of pasta and a good marinara sauce (made from my organic onions, garlic, peppers, tomatoes, and herbs). All prepared with the good Lebanese olive oil I mentioned above.

Tonight I set up a skillet of shallow olive oil and cooked several batches that are now in the freezer for meals this winter. Mmmmmm! I usually used inexpensive corn oil for this, but the omega 3 talk got me thinking, so I used the good stuff. We shall see how it turned out soon.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: Peter Kasin
Date: 27 Oct 14 - 11:39 PM

Tonight I made Moskowitz's recipe for mushroom / tofu stroganoff...we'll, almost her recipe, as my omnivore wife hates tofu, so I used eggplant instead. Very thinly sliced mushrooms and onion, minced garlic, with black pepper, dried thyme, very little salt, and a sauce made from raw cashews soaked for a couple of hours, then put through a food processor, with veg broth, added to the sautéed vegetables with wine and tomato paste. The recipe is in Isa Chandra Moskowit'z's book "Isa Does It." We both loved it.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 28 Oct 14 - 04:41 AM

Interesting Steve, that Scicilian 'red pesto' is close to the Spanish Romesco! Indeed it's fascinating to see how many nations have variants of each other's classic dishes.
Pilaf springs to mind, Pilau or Puloa being the Indian variant, just one of many; it crosses all borders, with so many countries having their own special take on rice cooked in broth, and variants on the same name all follow it wherever it travels. I actually have a map in one cookbook illustrating how it may have spread with migration to different parts of the world. And how in each new part of the world variants would develop ttha made use of local ingredients.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 28 Oct 14 - 08:33 AM

Steve... any idea why your wife is so opposed to tofu? texture? flavor?

One of my favorite dishes is ma bo tofu, especially when the tofu is deep fried first to give it more texture. Bean curd can be prepared so many different ways and absorbs the flavors of sauce or seasonings as to be unique in each dish.

I'm not much for shopping, but I can spend a long time wandering the isles of our local oriental food stores... Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Indian, Thai, Vietnamese... beats any department store or mall to my way of thinking. And chatting with the college students who are there looking for a little bit of home is a great experience... for both of us.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 28 Oct 14 - 10:17 AM

Despite my inopportunely timed declaration that I never have sugar (oh no!) Last night we tried another vegan sub that Mr. spotted and picked up specially to surprise me. Swedish Glace 'icecream.'

It can't call itself ice cream of course because it contains no dairy - despite the fact that the worst imaginable gelatinous goop can and does get called "ice cream." For comparison I looked on the ingredients list of a supermarket 'value' brand of "Ice Cream" the first ingredient it contained was "partially reconstituted skimmed milk concentrate", the second of course sugar, and the third, well well what a surprise "vegetable oils" - so no actual cream then, despite being legally allowed to call itself that.

Anyhow waffling off topic somewhat there, but the Swedish Glace was good, certainly better than expected by either of us. Distinctive vanilla, light but genuinely creamy (no jelly like goop) and quite convincing all around. Only downer was I thought it was a bit too sweet. Lots of good reviews at Ocado for it too: Swedish Glace vegan 'ice cream'

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 28 Oct 14 - 10:57 AM

Sciencegeek, I think you're bang on target there regarding tofu. Unless you're a hardened tofu-head, then tofu raw in salads*, tofu processed into 'mayonnaise', or tofu used in classic dishes where it has no natural home (such as the stroganoff), can be quite unappetising! It's quite easy to get put off the stuff if your only experiences with it are in adaptations of classic western meat and dairy dishes.

The best way to get to know and like tofu, is among the flavours and styles of cuisines where it is at home: it's friends are chilli, sesame, honey, lemon and lime, miso, soya sauce and so-on. It partners naturally with rice, noodle and steamed or stir-fried vegetable dishes. It must be pressed, and ideally marinated before cooking. Whether you bake it or fry it, cook nice and hot to get a crisp outside, and a soft inside.

I love the stuff. But it is quite common for people, including vegetarians, to have a rubbish experience with it and decide it's horrible!










*puts hand up: I'm a hardened tofu-head - raw tofu in salad is fine by me (I like it cubed with cous cous, crisp salad veg, lemon and olive oil.)

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Oct 14 - 11:05 AM

but genuinely creamy

Something without cream in can't by definition be that.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 28 Oct 14 - 11:10 AM

LOL... raw tofu is not my taste, but the local Chinese takeout makes a bean curd & vegetable soup that I adore... filled with cubed tofu, shredded nappa, sliced mushroom & assorted other fresh vegetables & seasoned with a ton of minced garlic and thickened with cornstarch to the point the spoon sticks up straight. I order that with a carton of rice and get two meals out of it.

Vegetable soup with a thin broth needs ginger to make me happy and works as a snack; but the thick soup makes a fine meal. To each their own, I guess. :D

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 28 Oct 14 - 11:12 AM

Yes, it can.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 28 Oct 14 - 12:02 PM

cream of tartar.... :)

I challange you to find the dairy in Potassium bitartrate. Common usage is not absolute, just common.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 28 Oct 14 - 12:06 PM

sorry... left out this

if you watch how tofu is made, it is immediately apparant how similar the process is to making cheese... bean curd made from "soy milk" by curdling and collecting the curds and then pressing them into blocks. The proteins in the "milk" differ from those in dairy, but proteins still tend to act in similar ways.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 28 Oct 14 - 01:01 PM

while I enjoy tofu... I'm a sucker for braised gluten...

stir fried with fresh aspargus or in chili or curry sauce... I can polish off a whole can all by my lonesome. It is the main ingredient in many mock meat dishes for buddhists... sometimes called seitan.

Chantyranger, maybe this would work in your stroganoff instead of tofu. The texture is chewy like beef.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 28 Oct 14 - 02:27 PM

I've yet to try gluten / seitan. Aka 'Buddhist meat': so called as it comprises a part of 'Temple cuisine' which is becoming an increasingly popular option for vegans who want to be able to eat out - the ' Hoving Hut' chain does this kind of food I believe. However I'm looking forward to trying it as its incredibly versatile stuff from what I've seen.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: GUEST,cs
Date: 28 Oct 14 - 02:33 PM

Sorry sciencegeek I've just repeated what you already said! Ever tried tempeh, feented soya beans with fungal stuff? I think you can even make it, though I think growing it might freak me out a bit..