Patriotism

Subject: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Arkie
Date: 11 Nov 14 - 10:36 PM

This is from a comment on Quora.

Nobody in Germany (except Neo-Nazis) will say "I am proud to be German". That is a big no-no and has cost several public figures their jobs.

Many Germans will also argue that it is illogical to be proud of the accident of birth that could have just as easily placed you in Rwanda, or to be proud of your nation's achievements when you haven't done anything to create them.

That being said, you can sometimes find people who are paradoxically "proud of not being proud". They (and I myself am tending more and more towards that view) are proud of Germany for being basically the only nation that has identified patriotism as the root of much evil and done away with it.

Caused me to think. Some of the people I consider most dangerous in America call themselves patriots.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: frogprince
Date: 11 Nov 14 - 11:29 PM

If there were on definition of patriotism in the minds of all who speak of it, it would be much easier to respect or to condemn "patriotism" Certainly there are massive numbers who effectively exalt and proclaim that "we are the greatest nation, composed of the greatest people, and God has ordained and empowered us to mold the world to his ends". One step removed, there are the "patriots" who consider themselves to be the only true Americans, entitled to do anything to their fellow citizens in the pursuit of their just cause. There remain those who may consider themselves patriots because they love their country, but would hope to see it as an area occupied by one fraction of the human race. And I just struggled with how to define that last faction, and whether I've defined it at all well.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Janie
Date: 11 Nov 14 - 11:54 PM

Appreciate you trying to put into words what I struggle with myself, Dean. Thank you.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 01:41 AM

I like my country well enough, and I served in the army and pay my taxes and work as a volunteer in my community. But the people who call themselves patriotic never seem to think I'm good enough to be an American. Oftentimes, their idea of patriotism has something to do with having guns to protect themselves from their government, and to preserve their freedom to misuse and deface our national resources.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 02:40 AM

I like two quotes from Bertrand Russell and George Bernard Shaw:-

Patriotism is the willingness to kill and be killed for trivial reasons.
Bertrand Russell

You'll never have a quiet world till you knock the patriotism out of the human race.
George Bernard Shaw,

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 02:40 AM

Don't conflate "patriotism" with "nationalism".

Being "proud" of whatever country you happen to have been born in, has got nothing to do with being a "patriot" - being a "patriot" and being "patriotic" has got a great deal more to do with what you as an individual can do to making your country a better place.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 02:48 AM

In Juneau's local paper several commenters disagreed on America's "exceptionalism". I and at least one other person contended that even though we love our country just as most people love the place where they were born, the very concept exceptionalism is naive and disingenuous, that this country, like most other countries, has done good things but equally bad things to its people and to the world, things in the past and the present that will impact the future for all. I said that the thing I am proud of America for is the willingness many of its people have to acknowledge its shortcomings and to seek to improve it. I love the humility of this line in 'America, the Beautiful': God mend thine every flaw and crown thy good with brotherhood and liberty in law.

One person took great umbrage at our position and has since in other threads claimed that we are people who hate our country, that "real" patriots would never think such a thing.

Yep. I'm afraid of 'real patriots'.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 05:01 AM

Teribus says: Don't conflate "patriotism" with "nationalism."

Where do the "Tea Party Patriots" fit into that equation? I'm surrounded by 'em in this county.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 05:21 AM

It is telling that the word "Patriot" is used as a name for a type of missile......

Some people see patriotism as a duty. So we return to Mr Bernard Shaw...

"When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty."

Patriotism seems a bigger deal in The USA. The idea of making children stand and put their hand on their heart, swearing to the flag and all that.. I always thought overt rituals were a sign of lack of confidence in the first place.

The Tea Party angle is similar to our UKIP angle but with guns rather than pints of beer. Make Britain great! Stop immigration from being a drain! the government, running scared of the closet racists calling themselves UKIP are getting that way themselves, even to the point of trying to hide a report last week showing that immigration has had a net contribution to the economy rather than a drain on benefits.

I mention this because the latest idea by raving bigots is to appeal to patriotism and christianity. (Note the large Muslim, Hindu, Sikh etc population of The UK, let alone the fact that less than 1% of the population go to church....)

Interesting times, especially as big business has shown that the world is a smaller place now and patriotism is becoming a more parochial irrelevance all the time. Presumably hence the backlash?

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 06:12 AM

Not certain - I don't believe in the label on the tin, it's what's inside which counts.
One of the biggest areas is competitive sports - from the Olympics downwards. We seek to be the best we can, as individuals, and sometimes as teams, and it can be useful support for that search for excellence. But at the same time, I'm not buying into the my country right or wrong side of it, the political paranoia. We are not islands alone, we are part of a world, and that tawdry currency has been debased further by the hard history of abuse from all sides. Let us be humans first.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 06:12 AM

Just as a matter of information, UKIP state that their opposition to unregulated immigration from the EU ("free movement of labour"),is not chiefly on economic grounds...though they DO dispute the latest set of economic figures, but on societal and infrastructure grounds.

"Team Musket" have a very bad habit of misrepresenting every view which threatens their pet myth.

Love of ones country is a positive emotion, blind acceptance of the system which rules it, robs it, and grinds its people into the dust, is stupid and negative....much more of a danger to society than a few flag wavers or gun toters.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Lighter
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 06:36 AM

Teribus' distinction between "patriotism" and nationalism" is correct.

I would go further in saying that "jingoism" is the particularly bellicose form of nationalism.

As Samuel Johnson famously said, "Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel." (He was referring to insincere appeals to patriotism, not the actual sense of patriotism.)

That doesn't logically entail that all or even most patriots are scoundrels, but it may have helped tarnish the very concept of patriotism, especially since the 1960s.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: MartinRyan
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 06:42 AM

"Patriot missile" - says it all, really.

Regards

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Ed T
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 06:43 AM

Ruling, robing and grinding ones own people into the dust is one thing. Doing it to others to benefit your tribe, through historic and current forms of economic and political colonionsm is another.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 06:49 AM

I give it four more posts before Akhenaton manages to somehow talk about his favourite subject again, anal sex.

For someone to say love of one's country is a positive emotion seems to contradict his hatred of his country in every other thread about The United Kingdom. ZZZZZ

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 07:12 AM

Funny that its always a spokesman for "team Musket" who introduces the subject of AI in every thread. This particular thread does not concern AI.

My country is Scotland, born and bred, a Fergusson by my great grandmother and a MacDonald by my grandmother.
I grew up in a partially Gaelic speaking community....the Lords of the Isles are in my heart, I know my history and how the Union has almost exterminated the Scottish, Irish, Welsh and English cultures.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 07:52 AM

You are a citizen of The UK. All parishes are in The UK. You are British.

Whether that makes me feel proud to be British is another thing entirely...

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 08:28 AM

To all those who supported the ACA, Obamacare...was this bill passed out of 'patriotism'???

GfS

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 09:26 AM

"Patriot missile" - says it all, really." - MartinRyan

As the missile is purely a defensive weapon I would say that it would fit my distinction although in the case of this inanimate object it could be easily demonstrated that it makes the country a safer place - and safe is good isn't it?

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Wesley S
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 10:07 AM

It seems that the conservatives in America have laid claim to the term "patriot". So now to be a patriot in their eyes translates to "You agree with me".

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 11:43 AM

"Defensive missile"

Ha Ha Ha HA!!!!!!




Really, you ought to go on the stage.


Freak.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 11:50 AM

"Whether that makes me feel proud to be British is another thing entirely... "

Embrace it "team Musket".....you have so very little to feel proud about!

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: olddude
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 12:08 PM

Teribus got it right

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 01:10 PM

"


         The Wild Geese
'Oh, tell me what was on yer road, ye roarin' norlan
   As ye cam' blawin' frae the land that's niver frae my mind?
My feet they trayvel England, but I'm deein' for the north—'
   'My man, I heard the siller tides rin up the Firth o' Forth.'
'Aye, Wind, I ken them well eneuch, and fine they fa' and rise,
   And fain I'd feel the creepin' mist on yonder shore that lies,
But tell me, ere ye passed them by, what saw ye on the way ?'
   'My man, I rocked the rovin' gulls that sail abune the Tay.'

'But saw ye naethin', leein' Wind, afore ye cam' to Fife?
   There's muckle lyin' yont the Tay that's mair to me nor life.'
'My man, I swept the Angus braes ye haena trod for years—'
   'O Wind, forgie a hameless loon that canna see for tears!—'

'And far abune the Angus straths I saw the wild geese flee,
   A lang, lang skein o' beatin' wings wi' their heids towards the sea,
And aye their cryin' voices trailed ahint them on the air—'
   'O Wind, hae maircy, haud yer whisht, for I daurna listen mair!' "

This fine poem by Violet Jacob gives a flavour of what Scotland, East or West, means to a native Scot.
I watch and listen to the wild geese travel over every spring and autumn....never fails to touch my heart.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 01:17 PM

from Bob Beers "The Seasons of Peace"

"False are the bickering reigns
Of honor, of homeland, of war
That nourish the torrents of hate,
and flow through the valleys of death,

Cold are the patriot winds
That scatter the bittering weed,
Strong are the seedlings of truth
That grow in the seasons of peace."

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Ed T
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 01:19 PM

""Lisa says that it's all right
When she meets me at midnight
Lisa says that she has her fun
And she'll do it with just about anyone""

Velvet Underground

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 01:58 PM

I suppose patriotism does come into being in a small way for us all. I am proud of being a UK citizen in that we started the whole international sign up to human rights, including the international courts that all but a few less advanced countries are signed up to.

UK citizens enjoy equality of opportunity, enshrined in law. You can go about your life without discrimination based on race, gender, disability or sexual orientation. If you are discriminated against or come up against published bigotry, you can call criminals to account.

Yes, I can be proud to be British. Despite everything, most of us are. When a part of The Uk had the choice of leaving the other month, they emphatically voted to remain British. The politicans wanting to leave wished to take the equality their party had put into legislation with them. The Scottish National Party, despite being rather incompetent and wooly headed, are at the forefront of equal rights and opportunity for all. The Scottish National Party will go down in history as the government that made gay marriage a fact in a part of The UK known for religious intolerance and low intelligence bigotry in some people, and they have every right to be proud of themselves, every last single member.

Oh aye, our past may have been one of discriminating against people, same as any other country, but apart from a few criminals and people with disturbed minds, we do have something to be patriotic about, despite our international reputation for self loathing...

That said, I am not a patriot. That has connotations of "holier than thou" about it, and just like in The States, tends to be put forward as an asset by the wrong people....

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 02:06 PM

Patriot missile?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that the Patriot missile is designed, not to kill people at all, but to bring down missiles fired by people trying to kill us.

That's why most of Saddam Hussein's "SCUDS" didn't reach their targets, ian't it?

Sounds defensive from where I'm standing!

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 03:16 PM

hello musket - i agree with you on that one! i always consider myself very patriotic, largely through some of the things you mention. i love the countryside, the wildlife, the taking the piss, the pubs, the radical tradition, the music, the literature, the eccentrics and all that. i have no time for the establishment or the monarchy - but can easily pretend they have no place in my country.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 03:18 PM

Oh, and the USA Patriot Act is one of the more oppressive pieces of legislation to come from the U.S. Congress in recent years...

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 03:26 PM

Oh, and I'd like to post a little tribute to Musket's last post:

He is an Englishman!
For he himself has said it,
And it's greatly to his credit,
That he is an Englishman!
That he is an Englishman!
For he might have been a Roosian,
A French, or Turk, or Proosian,
Or perhaps Itali-an!
Or perhaps Itali-an!
But in spite of all temptations
To belong to other nations,
He remains an Englishman!
For in spite of all temptations, etc.

...the Devil made me do it...

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 03:48 PM

Joe Offer: "Oh, and the USA Patriot Act is one of the more oppressive pieces of legislation to come from the U.S. Congress in recent years..."


Yes!..and who was the author, or one of the principle authors of the 'Patriot Act'?....

...none other than Joe Biden, in the mid nineties!


Now, that being said, Was the passage and support of the ACA, aka Obamacare, passed and supported out of patriotism??

Simple question...simple answer...


GfS

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 04:39 PM

No, not when you throw shit against the wall to see who salutes, Gust. Mixed metaphors are here simply to illustrate your brand of discourse. Slippery and inconclusive, always good for an argument.

Bill Summary & Status, 109th Congress (2005 - 2006) H.R.3199

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Jim McLean
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 04:49 PM

Dominic Behan's song The Patriot Game says it all. Conned by "patriotism" but still believing in an independent, republican Ireland, and opposed to John Bull's other island, English hegemony. The song shows one can believe in independence from Britain, actually die for it, but ignore the flag waving "patriotism" be it the Saltire or the Union flag of team GB.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Arkie
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 05:29 PM

Perhaps GfS can explain what is so terribly wrong with the availability of affordable health care.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Ed T
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 05:40 PM

""Patriotism, when it wants to make itself felt in the domain of learning, is a dirty fellow who should be thrown out of doors.""

Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860) German philosopher.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 05:45 PM

"UK citizens enjoy equality of opportunity, enshrined in law."

But never in practice!......and the "law" has been proved to be an ass!
In the good old UK, you are as equal as your bank balance dictates, or your value to the economic system.
Todays scandal of bank rate rigging is a powerful example, a law for the rich and a law for the poor......the love of ones native land is beyond their reach, nurture it.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 05:48 PM

Stilly River Sage: "No, not when you throw shit against the wall to see who salutes, Gust. Mixed metaphors are here simply to illustrate your brand of discourse. Slippery and inconclusive, always good for an argument.

Arkie: "Perhaps GfS can explain what is so terribly wrong with the availability of affordable health care."

Well, either you felt it was coming, or tried to avoid the obvious....

Check out THIS 'patriotism'!!

I gather 'so-called liberals' either hate patriotism....or think it's stupid.....along with the stupid people they intentionally deceive..

...is being arrogant, patriotic??

GfS

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 05:57 PM

well i'm a patriot. i like the place. i love every place i ever lived.

i love the flat parts of lincolnshire where i was born. i loved Brum where i worked as a teacher. all the kids i taught in erdington, handsworth, perry barr. i grew to love all the places where i gigged from |Mancheter to lincoln. York to Northampton. they're all fucking beautiful. plus a lot of other places.

how could you not love your country?

where i live now, near Dorchester is incredibly beautiful.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Ed T
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 05:58 PM

""I guess the definition of a lunatic is a man surrounded by them.""

Ezra Pound (1885-1972)

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 06:01 PM

the trouble with Schopenhauer, he never bought chips down chip alley in Skegness....


if he had, he would know what it is to fall in love unconditionally with a place.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Mrr
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 07:30 PM

Unclear on the distinction: Don't conflate "patriotism" with "nationalism". Being "proud" of whatever country you happen to have been born in, has got nothing to do with being a "patriot" - being a "patriot" and being "patriotic" has got a great deal more to do with what you as an individual can do to making your country a better place. "

I think being "proud" of something you didn't accomplish makes no sense. You can't be proud to be black, or gay, or American, if you were born that way. Mom, who survived WWII to emigrate and change nationalities, now she could be proud to be American, whether you call it Patriotism or Nationalism or Jingoism. I can't, I lucked into it.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Ed T
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 08:05 PM

""the trouble with Schopenhauer, he never bought chips down chip alley in Skegness....
if he had, he would know what it is to fall in love unconditionally with a place.""


I suspect Schopenhauer watched his calorie count closely,   most likely only going to the frituur about twice a month-thus avoiding unecessary lard and duck fat intake.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 08:11 PM

Every nation has its adherents who point with equal justification to their best bits. For example, a long sojourn in Brussels has taught me just how appalling UK chips are: they're a studied science in Belgium. Yet Al loves them. Perhaps both are right. Chips aren't fritjes, and they aren't frites, and frites aren't French Fries, let alone matchstick Freedom Fries.
There are parts of Breughel's Pajottenland which entirely rival Constable's Flatford, and...well, my point is that the list is long, and all it means is we're parochial and should find companionship with the others who find the same elsewhere. Which is rather an argument against this kind of Flanders and Swann Patriotism: to claim otherwise is simply a sign you've not looked elsewhere to find the same.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 10:36 PM

Big Al Whittle, to my mind, loving each place you have lived and being in awe of their beauty is not patriotism. There are many, many beautiful things and places. Where I live now and have for the last 26+ years is the most gorgeous, geographically speaking, of any place I have seen - it is green and mountainous, it has the ocean at its front door, the air is sweet and clear, the water sweet and chill- but I recognize the beauty of deserts in which I have spent time and I have been in awe of beautiful old buildings and even the sweep of the roadways emanating from them.

Patriotism, I think, refers to political matters.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: olddude
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 11:42 PM

Patriotism hurts a lot, you end up with scars and steel and stuff like that and a tad crazy

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: olddude
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 11:51 PM

Did I mention you don't sleep much either

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 13 Nov 14 - 03:26 AM

Hey Joe!

Too bloody true mate. I have right of residency in your esteemed country and if I took it up I could apply to go through that little ceremony with the flag and ironically less IRS hassle than I get as an "alien with assets."

But as you quoted, I remain an Englishman. To be pedantic, I remain British, because the former legally distinct countries that make up The UK are one sovereign country. I insist on the distinction on the basis that some people claim to be patriotic yet don't wish to be British. I can't speak for their sanity mind....

Al! The Lingalonga between Skeggy and Ingoldmells. Now you're talking when it comes to chippies. Did you know I once got kicked out of The Coral Beach clubhouse for singing? Takes some doing to be barred from there but I managed it.

Mind you, I'd had a sniff of the barmaid's apron so calling me up to the karaoke wasn't a wise move on their part. Threatening me not to sing the parody version of Green Green Grass of Home was hopeful on their part. Quite a few no necks in the room that night.

When you're tired of Skeggy you are tired of life.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Mrrzy
Date: 13 Nov 14 - 12:54 PM

I really don't see the distiction between nationalism, patriotism, and jingoism. I like the third word best, it seems to indicate the right amount of "and you aren't" that appears missing in the first two "we are great" attitudes. They are all divisive and harmful.

That said, I think the USA has the best idea for how to run a country. Too bad we're making such a horrible hash out of the actual execution of the great idea of E Pluribus Unum and Government Of The People. But that doensn't make *Americans* better than anybody else. Especially those making the horrible hash.

And I'm awfully glad to have been born with American citizenship.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Mrrzy
Date: 13 Nov 14 - 01:25 PM

Well, is this a mondegreen or what?

I thought the last line of Phil Och's Power and Glory was "glory shall rest on a song, on a song" - but it is apparently "glory shall rest on us all, on us all" - I have to say I like mine better!