Patriotism

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Nov 14 - 04:27 AM

bit like folk music - different people think its different things. there are some people who claim there is a definition - but the blind alley they end up in should tell them that they're talking shit.

but as far as i'm concerned, if you love England - whatever mad conclusion you come to - you are a patriot.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Nov 14 - 10:25 PM

well obviously no one agrees with me. i think a fondness for one country is enough to call yourself a patriot.
if you hate the sodding place and its people and traditions. tp the extent that you're not really bothered if they come to harm.

i guess you're unpatriotic.

where you would put someone like Kim Philby , who professed that he loved the country so much - he wanted it to be a communist state, and went on to betray his country - i don't know.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Nov 14 - 08:02 PM

I seem to recall that God Bless America was the song that so enraged Woody Guthrie that he riposted with This Land Is Your Land, an infinitely superior song.

There is no nation or establishment or monarch or institution or boss that deserves your allegiance as of right. They should have to earn it first, and earning it is the most difficult thing in the world. You were born where you were born by sheer accident. Patriotism is a bit like prayer. If you adhere to your nation, unthinkingly, your thoughts are probably moving in the direction of diminishing nations other than your own. If you pray for some advantage, you are automatically praying for someone else's disadvantage. Hardly surprising, then, that God is so often invoked in patriotic rants (God Bless America, God Save The Queen). Patriotism and God make for good bedfellows. Patriotism leads to xenophobia, sectarianism and racism. Don't love your country above all others until you've sorted it out first!

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,a h melvichou
Date: 17 Nov 14 - 07:31 PM

Surely when you get to your 50s you know exactly what you love about your country.currently late night radio.i have decided to livin my own Country stretches form Fleetwood in the south to Carlisle inthe middle. Embra is admin and government city and Glasgow is party city we will take west
minster in may or have a great time trying
..YES.   we will.look north for inspiration

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 17 Nov 14 - 03:24 PM

Goofus as usual, displaying pratriotism...

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Ed T
Date: 17 Nov 14 - 02:23 PM

I like merlot.
But, there are also some good whites that I also enjoy.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Mrrzy
Date: 17 Nov 14 - 01:52 PM

I think I do know what it means, an' I'm agin it.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Nov 14 - 01:45 PM

See my rather long post above, at 13 Nov 14 - 03:40 PM.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 17 Nov 14 - 01:22 PM

Well, judging from the posts, it looks like people don't really know what 'patriotism' is. You'd think from their posts that they confuse 'patriotism' with holding the 'party line'.....even when they are NOT 'patriotic'.....

...sorta like the difference between a 'statesman' and a 'politician'...
....and sorta like a clergyman as opposed to a 'spiritual' man.

Oh well, that's showbiz!

GfS

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 17 Nov 14 - 04:38 AM

A strutalot?

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Mrrzy
Date: 17 Nov 14 - 12:01 AM

(didn't mean to click submit) a filiot? An avunculot? That last one sounds, somehow, lewd and child molesty.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Mrrzy
Date: 16 Nov 14 - 11:58 PM

Yeah, can you be a matriot?

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Nov 14 - 11:17 PM

matriotism....?

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 16 Nov 14 - 05:47 PM

Patriotism surely only applies to contries who have a fatherland. However, the US, being based around Columbia, is surely a Motherland, and so should not have a concept of Patriotism, but Maternalism.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 16 Nov 14 - 05:11 PM

Joe Offer: "-Joe, Detroit Native-"

Oh, NOW I get it......My condolences!
(Wink while grinning)

GfS

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 16 Nov 14 - 05:08 PM

Joe Offer: "Hi, GfS -
I would hope that patriotism could cross ideological lines, that people of different political persuasions could put that aside and sing "America the Beautiful" or "God Save the King Queen" without the baggage of ideology - but that seems to happen less and less often nowadays."

Yes I agree!!...I think that when lies, misrepresentations and deceit, are employed by either 'religion' or politics, to achieve the personal goals, for those promoting it, then the subscribing peoples who belong to either group, become spiritually and morally malnourished, and then disillusioned.

We see that in every moment we live these days, and instead of CORRECTING those errors, we 'entrust' our confidence (a.k.a. 'faith'), into the very purveyors of the deceptions, and in our 'pride', we promote fears of 'what if', instead of self examination, admitting that our 'egos' have been misplaced, and making the necessary personal adjustments.
Are we so 'taken in' by our own pride(s) and vanities, that we have rendered ourselves 'too stupid' to find a way to bridge the differences, and find the common ground???...That we, after all, are living organisms, living together, on a ball in space, trying to survive. It is NOT necessary to manipulate each other, either privately, or corporately, on this ball, spinning in space, for the benefit of an elite, primarily, while excluding others, and not hurt the whole, of which we all are a part...but then at that point, the proselytizing of that very truth, would then fall into the category, of 'religion'.....the only thing wrong, is that many 'religions' have turned into 'the blind leading the blind' with 'peace and love at ten dollars a pair...and as in the political world, they too 'sell you a fear'...and then promote themselves as being the 'only remedy'....

That being said, I don't think that people who 'water down the truth', for whatever reason, be it in 'religion' or politics, should be given much credibility....and we are NOT THAT stupid, as not to be able to come to terms with ourselves, and the community we share existence with...on this ball, spinning in space....

The unspoken '800 pound gorilla in the room' is that in the political world, there is a notion that THEY are the ones to reign supreme, and they must 'eradicate' any influence(s), that 'religion' may have to offer....notwithstanding that we have our sense of justice and mercy, from living in a culture, whose basis is rooted in fairness, whose principles were bannered, in those...but the 'source' is now our enemy?????????

As you previously have pointed out, LOVE, IS the mindset, to ANY higher understanding...and along with that, the politicos exploit patriotism, and couple it to their agendas...while 'religions', hide behind 'Love'....and hide what it is and can do.
Politics may TRY and promote fairness....but NOBODY can legislate LOVE......but they can 'pretend'......

John P: "Until we have a world government that can force the compliance of all nations we will have war."

See?? ..." ..force the compliance of all nations.."

OK, you want to 'force compliance'???.....the people to whom you do that to will cry, "Rape"...and accuse each other of abuse.....just take a look around!

Lighter: "... the one I happen to have been born into is one of the most necessary & least evil. To people all over the world, it means wealth & freedom"...

One might examine, 'How we measure 'wealth''...because if it is measured solely with materialism, pursuing it might just cost one their freedom....as an individual, a culture..a society..a nation...
"In America, people have confused the 'pursuit of happiness' with the 'pursuit of material gain'.
(I am not refuting your post)

Musket: "I wouldn't expect anything too deep and meaningful from Goofus. I am not joking when I mention how comedy TV programmes over here get plenty of mileage out of the loony right and Jesus & gun brigade over your way.
Reading the likes of Goofus, blaming "liberals" for existing just puts context into our evening entertainment...."


Self explanatory....

Musket, Have you considered seeking professional help?? Not EVERYTHING is considered through the prism of 'talking points'....

Have a Great Day All!!

GfS

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 16 Nov 14 - 02:16 AM

World court eh? What would that do to prevent large countries propping up one side in disputes between two others? I love the simple naivety going on here. Almost cute.

Lobbying and money in Washington, coupled with USA refusal to support UN is keeping the Israel / Palestine problem going.

That's the problem with world courts in any sense. The USA foreign policy is to listen to lobby and self interest whilst claiming to be international arbiters.

You took up the mantle from us. We used to be as bad and many lament our lack of influence even now. Strange old world.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Nov 14 - 12:42 AM

John P., the City of Detroit wouldn't get very far in a war against Ann Arbor, because in this day and age, Ann Arbor has more money.

But I like your idea of a world government that is able to settle disagreements by methods other than warfare. I wonder if it would work. I wonder why it wouldn't work....

-Joe, Detroit Native-

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Mrrzy
Date: 15 Nov 14 - 11:29 PM

Proud to BE american, given that it was achieved rather than lucked into. Those of us born here can't be proud of it. Is what I meant. Mom would certainly not enrol in any armies despite being proud to have made it out the concentration camps, out from behind the iron curtain, over the ocean before planes were common, and through the red tape of immigration at Ellis Island. That is something to be proud of. My being popped out of her a few years later is not something *I* can claim as an achievement, so I can't be proud of it having happened here.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Nov 14 - 05:44 PM

i'll look up it what SH said, about Yeats on a dvd i bought from the Irish national library.

but i'm halfway through another dvd. come off it mate was a condensation of what he said

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Thompson
Date: 15 Nov 14 - 05:24 PM

"Come off it, mate" sounds a little too London for Heaney. Did he say that of Yeats? When and where?

As for immigrants being "proud of their new nationality", oh, that's nothing to do with patriotism for me. Happy to live in their new country, yes, fine. But "proud of their new nationality" sounds suspiciously like people on their way to enrol in an army to kill others.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Mrrzy
Date: 15 Nov 14 - 02:08 PM

Where I said "when that isn't Americans who" above, I meant it isn't JUST Americans who. Sorry.

What michaelr said. That's why I'm all for immigrants being proud of their new nationality, but not anybody who was born anywhere being proud of where they were born.

Glad they were born there, yes. I am certainly lucky to have been born American.

Proud of what my *government* has done? If I were, I hope I'd be proud of the *people* -the ones IN that government, for doing something right.

We are so polarized (now that we are a big group thanks to the media imo) that it's hard to be proud of fellow Americans since half of them are apparently blatant idiots no matter which side of any issue you find yourself!

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: michaelr
Date: 15 Nov 14 - 01:51 PM

Patriotism is the mistaken notion that the accident of the geopolitical location of one's birth has higher meaning than membership of the human race and citizenship of Planet Earth.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Raedwulf
Date: 15 Nov 14 - 01:47 PM

I think, John P, even if we don't say it in quite the same way, yeah, we're very much on the same wavelength. And Ed & probably several others (if I read back through all the posts) are much the same.

I'm sure it's a quote from Mary Poppins, or something similar, but "Wouldn't it be nice if we could all be nice to each other?" ;-) Alas, I certainly don't always rise to such an aspiration!

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,John P
Date: 15 Nov 14 - 10:45 AM

Nationalism, which many in the power-mad set refer to as patriotism, is inherently uncivilized. The history of civilization is one of smaller groups combining with larger groups for the purpose of public safety. Tribe to village to city to region to state to country. Here is the US, the Constitution requires the states to behave in a civilized manner with each other. We can assume that if there wasn't a federal government to settle the differences, any given state would go to war with any other as soon as they couldn't resolve their differences themselves. But they end up with a ruling from Congress or the Supreme Court and they have to accept it, whether they like it or not.

Until we have a world government that can force the compliance of all nations we will have war. Wouldn't it be nice if Israel and Palestine had to take their differences to the world court and then had to just accept the ruling that came down? Everyone could just get on with their lives even if they disagreed with the decision. People who take up arms because they disagree with a ruling would create a police situation instead of a war, mostly because the entire rest of the world would back the court's decision. It would be sort of like if the city of Detroit decided to declare war on Ann Arbor. They wouldn't get very far. They know that the United States army would land on them so fast and so hard that they don't even think about going to war with each other. They sue each other and accept the final verdict. Much less loss of life.

This would, of course, require that the United States and every other country give up their sovereignty. Until we find a way to do that we will be uncivilized.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Nov 14 - 10:44 AM

allright we'll pretend we're like everyone else, but actually we're just being modest.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Ed T
Date: 15 Nov 14 - 10:04 AM

""To people all over the world, it means wealth....""

Who once said that economics is behind almost everything in life:)

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Lighter
Date: 15 Nov 14 - 09:59 AM

> the one I happen to have been born into is one of the most necessary & least evil. To people all over the world, it means wealth & freedom; to me, also, it means home. None of those things is to be despised.

Hard to dispute, but many will try.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Ed T
Date: 15 Nov 14 - 08:40 AM

Interesting perspective Rardwulf.

I notice that some feel more patriotic about their heritage (and local culture) than their country. I often detect that this frequently reflects some bitterness for past negative events. However, I also see people whose ancesters were treated very poorly, but can rise above this and remain both proud of their heritage and their nation-while not diminishing the historic wrongs. Native peoples in North Ameria are an example (and, in some cases the wrongs are not entirely in the past).

I am often puzzled by people who hold grudges against other groups for events that occured hundred of years, or more, in the past, such as in the Middle Eas, where some groups seem more patriotic about their religion and "tribe", versus their nation, (whose boundaries were determined by outside forces).

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Raedwulf
Date: 15 Nov 14 - 07:37 AM

I'm a little late to this thread, being only an occasional visitor these days, so I haven't read more than the first few posts. My apologies if this has already been said, especially if it's been better said than I'm about to attempt, but those first few posts provoke me to offer the following for consideration...

"I am proud of my country because..." That, to me is patriotism, and I see nothing wrong with that. We evolved as a social animal, small groups. Family, which doesn't have to mean blood relation, is what we're wired for. Tribe / clan / folk we can cope with - those we don't know but, given that we naturally label the world around us, those that we can label as "those that are generally like us", whatever the criteria for "like us" may be. Going beyond that is more difficult. In my experience, it's only a small minority of people that can rise above family & folk, and view the whole of humanity more or less without prejudice.

The thing about patriotism for me though, is that it has to be not only "I am proud of my country because...", but also "I am well aware of the shit things we've done as well". It isn't patriotism that is the problem; it's nationalism - "My country is BETTER than every else because..." THAT, I think, is when the sense of "we've done a lot of shit things too" is lost, history gets whitewashed and we can do whatever we want because we're obviously superior...

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 15 Nov 14 - 04:40 AM

We kick 'em out of scouts at 16 or so.... 😎

I wouldn't expect anything too deep and meaningful from Goofus. I am not joking when I mention how comedy TV programmes over here get plenty of mileage out of the loony right and Jesus & gun brigade over your way.

Reading the likes of Goofus, blaming "liberals" for existing just puts context into our evening entertainment....

Mind you, we too have those who get ideas from the same PR companies and the latest stupidity is an idea by ministers (won't happen) to have children saluting the flag each day at school. The thinking of our conservative idiots being that it is a solution to Islamic radicalisation.

Patriotism to a lump of geography or patriotism to a perceived lifestyle is still patriotism and still there to be exploited by the clever bastards Goofus and his redneck mates follow but don't understand.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Nov 14 - 03:53 AM

Hi, GfS -
I would hope that patriotism could cross ideological lines, that people of different political persuasions could put that aside and sing "America the Beautiful" or "God Save the King Queen" without the baggage of ideology - but that seems to happen less and less often nowadays.

I was registered with the Boy Scouts of America for thirty years. Patriotism is an important thing in the Scouts, and I generally felt very comfortable with the attitude toward patriotism in the Scouts. Toward the end, though (about 1990), I became disillusioned. The Scouts became more closely identified with religious and political conservatism, and I began to feel I didn't fit in anymore. The Girl Scouts didn't follow that path in the U.S. - but they still emphasize patriotism.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 15 Nov 14 - 01:00 AM

So what if your 'patriotism' is being confused with fervently believing an ideological lie, hook line and sinker?...and then calling people 'haters'(of some sort), who don't buy into your delusion.....you know, sorta like 'so-called liberals conservatives' ....or like what is so often happening on here??

Stick to the music!

GfS

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Mrrzy
Date: 14 Nov 14 - 11:34 PM

I am all for a planetary government of all the people for all the people.
It bugs me when I hear politicians talking about Americans having rights to, say, not be hungry, when that isn't Americans who (ought to) have those rights.

I am all for a lot of stuff.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Joe_F
Date: 14 Nov 14 - 09:08 PM

In principle & for the long run, I am a wishywashy Wellsian one-worlder. For the time being, however, evidence compels me to the conclusion that nations are necessary evils, and that the one I happen to have been born into is one of the most necessary & least evil. To people all over the world, it means wealth & freedom; to me, also, it means home. None of those things is to be despised.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Ed T
Date: 14 Nov 14 - 11:23 AM

""Did you hear about the visually impaired man who went bungee jumping? Scared the hell out of the dog.""

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 14 Nov 14 - 10:13 AM

Will Rogers clearly hasn't met my alleged greyhound then.

If he shits in the scrub grass rather than the farm track, he gets a gravybone. He has started laying a small shit, getting his treat then hobbling a few yards before evacuating half his bodyweight and looking up expectantly for his second gravybone.

Seems like every politician I have come across....

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Ed T
Date: 14 Nov 14 - 07:30 AM

""I love a dog. He does nothing for political reasons.""

Will Rogers

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 14 Nov 14 - 07:27 AM

Someone said, probably a Frenchman, that "Patriotism is nothing more than the memory of good things we ate in childhood."

And the only way to counter catriotism is with dogmatism.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 14 Nov 14 - 07:26 AM

Dick Gaughan wrote a song ripping the piss out of The USA idea of "by the people, for the people. "

By the people for the people
That was Lincoln's vow
But what the hell would Abraham Lincoln say
If he could see America now?

The first verse goes-

I heard a lot of talk about the land of the free
So I went to see it for myself
What I found was misery and poverty
In a land of incredible wealth.
They have a thing called a constitution
To defend their civil right
That's provided you have plenty of money
Are protestant, male and white.

Meanwhile, the mid term elections made great TV here. Lots of our comedy shows have been screening Republican elevtion adverts, so we could all laugh at how incredibly stupid American voters must ge. I particularly liked the woman who is now a senator who castrates pigs and can't wait to get to Washington. Oh, and the rednecks saying America was built on the bible and the gun.

Without exception, the only comment afterwards from any of our TV presenters has been "God bless America."

Not a good day for the nice people over there I know well, call friends and frankly, feel sorry for...

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Nov 14 - 06:58 AM

As Seamus Heaney said about Yeats....you just want to say, come off it mate!

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Ed T
Date: 14 Nov 14 - 06:57 AM

""Gov of the people by the people""

Though the specific words may have a USA source, I suspect the idea/concept is hardly historically unique to the USA . However, words are cheap and the concept is complex to implement, in a pure form, by any government.

Patriotism fuels many myths, as citizens tend to look inward, rather than outward.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Thompson
Date: 14 Nov 14 - 03:23 AM

There's two kinds of patriotism: the kind where it's Us and Our Place and Them, and Yeats's kind as he stood in London hearing the water of Inisfree flowing under the concrete: "I hear it in the deep heart's core".

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 14 Nov 14 - 02:55 AM

My alleged greyhound has a catriotism policy but luckily is too lazy (and these days getting too slow) to put it into practice. The ginger Tom who sits outside the french windows preening himself in view of the poor bugger can carry on his taunting with impunity.

A friend sent me a birthday card with a cat pulling faces at a dog through a sliding glass door leading to a garden. The caption was the dog thinking "I'll give him another minute to see if he realises the door is open."

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Mrrzy
Date: 13 Nov 14 - 10:11 PM

I am at a loss (pun intended since my cat just died, sigh) as far as your logic is concerned, where do I advocate multiple cat buying? Aren't too many cats a catastrophe? Or is that what you replace a missing cat with? Castriotism is when they take your balls and you're proud of it? Crastiotism is preferring to live north of the Wall?

The idea to which I refer was no divine right to rule. Gov of the people by the people (pity some of the people are such dicks). Great idea. Would work if everyone were nice like my dad.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 13 Nov 14 - 07:10 PM

Or we could follow Mrzzy and buy them all felines so they can emulate certain James Bond baddies. That way it could become catriotism.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 13 Nov 14 - 06:44 PM

I'm half wondering whether Gorbachev's analysis might not mean the entire thing's out of date. He postulates that the extremism nowadays is actually coming from the commercial world fighting amongst itself, for example the Russian oligarchs driving Putin and the US - well, it hardly needs saying. The position in the Muslim world's less clear, but it does look very much as though it's the Arab business circle driving the terrorist agenda too. Bin Laden is a major Saudi business, I had a near run-in this summer with one of the Al-Khalifas (Bahrein/Dubai) who's wanted for human rights abuse.
If so, will we end up in the Japanese position of corporate sell-out for simple survival?

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 13 Nov 14 - 06:36 PM

We don't mind the bear, but whilst we're British true
The Russians will not have Constantinople!

I forgot all about that song Al. A band I was in, we used to sing it. I think we learned it from Strawhead. It was a Crimea War song, not Boer, hence the words in the rest of the chorus.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Nov 14 - 03:49 PM

In general, I think of patriotism as a virtue, as concern for the welfare of one's community and pride in the goodness found in that community. I think it's a good thing to appreciate purple mountains and amber waves and (generally) peaceful ethnic diversity as precious gifts, and to revere a flag as a symbol of those blessings. People like the "Tea Party Patriots" redefine the word into something obnoxious, but I think the basic meaning of "patriotism" is still a positive thing.

I see "jingoism" and "nationalism" as the evil counterparts of the virtue of patriotism.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Nov 14 - 03:43 PM

M y Grandma used to sing a Boer war song

we do not want to fight
but by jingo if we do
we've got the might, we've got the men
we've got the money too

I've always suspected that that was the root of jingoism. it springs from a mistaken view that our way of doings is unquestionably the best. its only in retrospect we can see that the England of the 1890's was a stew of exploitation, hypocrisy and snobbery.

no doubt, theres a lot of things wrong with England now - still you like the things you like.

i like that if i am ill, i get help. i like the fact, i can go out with a guitar and entertain most people, most places, most nights of the week. i feel safe here, and the drains work.

if there is something wrong with the place. i must be part of what's wrong. if the IRA and Al Quaeda are right wanting to blow us up - then i am part of the reason.