Patriotism

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 04 Dec 14 - 07:56 AM

i can't agree with that . akenaton - surely the personal is political. if we tolerate the power of one group over another - as in the male/female thing in many countries of the world, or the lack of equal human rights for anyone- then these are conservative political laws that affect us all at a personal level. if you look at the usually religious based conservatism making life impossible for homosexuals (or christians in some parts)in africa surely we have to be grateful that things are somewhat better in the west and respectful for all of those who have had to fight for their rights against people like yourself. please don't call yourself a socialist if you are really in favour of legislating against any group of people that you don't approve of.
why are you so bothered about this issue? do you enjoy the likes of musket getting on your back about it so often?!
is liberal ideology really changing society for the worse? tell the women in saudi that or the guys building the world cup stadiums in qatar. sounds very conservative thinking for a 'radical socialist'

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Dec 14 - 08:25 AM

"If you want the truth to stand clear before you, never be for or against. The struggle between for and against is the mind's worst disease."

Zen master Seng-ts'an 

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 04 Dec 14 - 08:47 AM

Akenaton seems rather old fashioned. I thought national socialism went out of fashion sixty mine years ago?

Achmelvich. I most certainly don't get on his back. I have the sneaking suspicion he might enjoy it. After all, he has an unhealthy interest in the sex life of those gay men who have a sex life in the first place and fantasies about them all being willing to be unfaithful.

Whatever floats your boat I suppose, but keep it 'up there' Eh Alex? We all have fantasising thoughts from time to time but you are a wee bit transparent..

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Dec 14 - 02:18 PM

Achmelvich, I neither approve nor disapprove of homosexuals...I feel rather sorry for them in the way that they are abused by the "liberal" activists and in the way they must live their lives without the pain and joy of procreation and upbringing of their natural children. Homosexuality is a fact, to approve or disapprove of their choice of sexual partner would be ludicrous, like being "against homosexuality"...ludicrous. That does not equate to wishing homosexuality to be brought into the mainstream.
I know three homosexual couples and none of them have an desire to "marry", they are different and proud of their difference.
Homosexual "marriage" is a device to divide and distract from all the real inequalities which are so obvious to socialists....it is a smokescreen, a non issue, which has been built into a monolith by a greedy, immoral media and self serving politicians.

All the human rights are available through Civil Union...in fact in the UK at this juncture, homos have more "rights" that heteros. :0)
A real socialist looks to strengthening the whole community both economically and socially, not through personal rights....Homosexual "marriage" does nothing to strengthen society, it devalues marriage in the eyes of many and is used by "liberal" activists to attack and if possible abolish the Church, to them, a bastion of conservatism.
I myself am an atheist but I understand the strength many of my neighbours derive from a belief in their "god".

Despite the opposition on this forum, the health figures are stark and incontrovertible.
Which other demographic is "advised" to be tested every three months? None. If infection rates continue on their present course, what is to be done?
In London in 2011, 1 in 11 MSM carried the virus, in 2013, it was 1 in 8.
In some American cities it is 1 in 5......is this type of sexual relationship "just the same as a heterosexual one"......I don't think so

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Dec 14 - 02:29 PM

I am a homosexual who opposes "gay marriage", am I a bigot?

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Dec 14 - 02:46 PM

He does go on and on, on his solitary topic, doesn't "he".
As if anyone takes such propaganda seriously.

If one wanted to find close to the same stuff on the internet, a simple Google search under gay hate groups, the literature would uncover material with mostly similar arguments (if not the same).

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw taking non-issue
Date: 04 Dec 14 - 03:38 PM

Its a non-issue sez he, but he don't half go on about it, eh ?

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw punctuation hooligan
Date: 04 Dec 14 - 03:40 PM

It's it's

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 04 Dec 14 - 03:49 PM

I believe Akenaton says what Akenaton thinks myself. The person who is quoted on this thread as saying it is repugnant and against nature. The post above therefore confuses me.

Nobody wants your pity, although normal people out of the goodness of their heart might pity you.

I don't. I think society will be better when bigotry dies out.



Ed. Take that as read. Reading his posts, he isn't capable of such conclusions without the help of far right hate, nazi and pseudo religious sites.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Dec 14 - 03:59 PM

A lesson in logic, to show how reasonable it is to assume you actually can deduce something broad-based by knowing and talking with three people:


I know three "bango playing" couples and none of them have an desire to "play guitar", they are different, "musically" and proud of their difference.

"Guitar playing " is a device to divide "music couples" and distract from all the real inequalities in "music" which are so obvious to "musical" socialists....it is a smokescreen, a non issue, which has been built into a monolith by a greedy, immoral media and self serving "musical" politicians.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 Dec 14 - 12:49 AM

Huh??...That made no sense....(Ed T), ""Guitar playing " is a device to divide "music couples" and distract from all the real inequalities in "music" which are so obvious to "musical" socialists."

Can you point out the 'evidence'???

GfS

P.S. Being opposed to a re-defining of marriage, to suit a political notion, should not be construed as 'hatred'...but rather a different opinion....which happens to be in the MAJORITY.....
Ake, Though I'm not 'taken in' by the 'religions' mentioned, the link was a good link. Thanks for posting it.....
...I'm sure it makes no sense to some....and common sense to others.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Dec 14 - 01:04 AM

If you call a tail a leg, how many legs has a dog? Five? No, calling a tail a leg don't make it a leg.
Abraham Lincoln

Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/a/abraham_lincoln_5.html#QBtajZPwcqlGV6aZ.99

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 05 Dec 14 - 03:10 AM

So you didn't read your mate's post then Goofus? I think you will find a wee bit more than not liking something that's fuck all to do with him. Scroll up and feel the hate oozing from every sweaty orifice.

By the way, the only people who can oppose a gay marriage are gay people having second thoughts about their upcoming nuptials. An existing wife or husband opposing bigamy can too, I suppose.

I can't answer for Dumbfuckistan but here in civilisation, everybody other than a few loony religious sects misinterpreting their book and a few old bigots welcomed and embraced the changes in law to put all people on an equal footing.

Patriotism? Yeah, proud to be in a country where hate and bigotry are shouted down and pushed to the fringes of society till they wither and disappear naturally.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Dec 14 - 03:42 AM

Thank you Sanity.....freethinkers live!

The rest of you, it would be nice if some of you would make an attempt to address some of the points made in my post and the link which I provided.

Abusive messages are so bloody boring. This is a serious subject so please try to treat it seriously.
Ed, Achmelvich and guest seem to be making an effort, but I don't think the rest of you really understand the question, or care enough to find an answer.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 05 Dec 14 - 03:44 AM

The question. Can any adult marry the person they are in love with?

The answer. Yes.

Back in yer loch, monster.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Dec 14 - 04:00 AM

The answer to YOUR question Ian is of course NO, and you know it very well.

I suppose the real question will never sink in.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw going "huh?"
Date: 05 Dec 14 - 06:02 AM

Yesterday he was telling us it was a non-issue. Today he's telling us it's a serious issue. He seems to think that he's a free-thinker. Random non-thinker would be nearer the mark.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 05 Dec 14 - 06:06 AM

Don't worry. Al was right. It might never sink in, but don't use your lack of intellect or low moral stance to excuse your horrible bigotry.

Nobody wants to read it. Some people are saddened and dismayed to read the lies and hate. I do wish you'd stop. Mudcat doesn't deserve to be on a list of websites that encourage homophobia but the way you are carrying on without intervention by moderators, it runs that risk.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Ed T
Date: 05 Dec 14 - 06:23 AM

""Huh??...That made no sense....(Ed T),""

You are finally seeing that your Mudcat team mate Ake makes little sense in his frequent and repeating (aka, one trick) anti homosexual rants, gfs. Both sides of the brain are there to use.
;)

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 05 Dec 14 - 06:52 AM

"P.S. Being opposed to a re-defining of marriage, to suit a political notion, should not be construed as 'hatred'...but rather a different opinion....which happens to be in the MAJORITY....."

Another logical blooper from him who has departed sanity.

If the majority hold that different opinion, there would be no same sex marriage in any country other than the good ole US of A, where a majority is FORTY percent.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Ed T
Date: 05 Dec 14 - 07:05 AM

People change, but some dont. Over time the majority of people see the light.

The changing climate 

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Dec 14 - 07:50 AM

In the meantime, turn the torch off and keep the pathetic bigots in the dark where society can ignore them and not be faced with their nasty comments.

He says my husband and I are promiscuous, that we are incapable of a loving relationship, that we carry disease, that we are repugnant and against nature.

Presumably the moderators would be happy with a troll saying that about them and their loved ones?

I don't expect anyone to understand a love that they wouldn't ever experience any more than I could understand why I don't feel that way about women, but I don't think it perverted or unnatural for a man to love a woman.

If I did, I would possibly keep my irrational thought to myself.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Dec 14 - 08:44 AM

Well said, Guest. He also thinks that, in spite of gay men being "promiscuous", gay marriage, presumably a really effective step in curbing that alleged promiscuity, should not be permitted. This is a prime example, one assumes, of what he means by "free-thinking". It reminds me of the inconsistent stance of some organised religions which teach not only that sex is a terrible thing designed strictly for procreation only, and that abortion is the greatest evil on the planet, whilst condemning contraception and proper, non-moralising sex education in schools.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Dec 14 - 08:47 AM

Cor, sorry, grammar police. I should use my reading specs on the iPad. :-(

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 05 Dec 14 - 01:02 PM

iPads can be buggers. Although I doubt a thousand mistakes from my iPad could result in a single sentence from Akenaton or Goofus.

On adjacent threads, some are claiming the world wars were successful but how can they have been when nasty little fascists still lurk and taunt society with their segregation and second class citizen views, built on a tissue of lies?

Patriotism is about pride. I am perhaps proud of government recognition of equality. I am less proud of sharing a country or indeed planet with those who think the Nazis had a point.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Ed T
Date: 05 Dec 14 - 01:24 PM

""which happens to be in the MAJORITY..""

Where are those "facts" from on that one gfs?

Or, did you mean the majority of fellows in houses on your side of your street (odd numbered ones, I suspect), in Putin's Russia, or in your man-cave, church pew, or possibly club-house (I'm not speculating which one)?

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 06 Dec 14 - 03:17 AM

Oh, go on. Speculation is fun. Ask Goofus and Akenaton. They do it all the time.

I'm sure, considering he doles it out, Goofus will be pleased to have people speculate.

I reckon pew. Although laid on his psychiatrist's couch could be a runner.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 06 Dec 14 - 03:36 AM

Steve Pshaw: "Yesterday he was telling us it was a non-issue. Today he's telling us it's a serious issue. He seems to think that he's a free-thinker. Random non-thinker would be nearer the mark."

Thinking is a process above mentally regurgitating propaganda, and exercising grey cells, spinning lame excuses, rationalizing it all away....while battling common sense.

Think about it..............................................if you think you have the ability.

When you begin to ask 'Why?', and not settle for just the 'answers' (Read: 're-assurances to a bias'),...and then ask 'Why?', a few 'layers down', you may find new possibilities, not before considered........


...just a thought.


GfS


P.S.....That's the difference between, learning HOW to think, rather than WHAT to think.
Try it.....it's fun!

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 06 Dec 14 - 04:32 AM

So when are you booked in for lessons Goofus?

😂😂😂

Anyway, I thought you once admitted you were a Christian? They seem to be told what to think rather than how to think. I know this because strangely we still have a few religious bods over here. Not as many as there used to be mind.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Dec 14 - 04:33 AM

Steve , sorry, but perhaps my post was a bit confusing.

Homosexual "marriage" in my opinion is "a non issue", but MSM health rates are obviously a very serious issue indeed.

Unfortunately, in order to obtain the first, we find it necessary to conceal (from most people), the second?

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 06 Dec 14 - 06:36 AM

So you disagree with what Akenaton says about gay people? Or were you lying when you gave your opinion? Or are you lying now? Why is it a non issue? Have you realised a marriage between two men is as equal and wonderful as yours was?

Not surprising he disagrees with himself given what a disagreeable piece of pond life he is.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Dec 14 - 08:44 AM

A hypothetical question for Ake:

If a new STD appeared and spread rapidly, primarily among single heterosexual people...


would you consider it appropriate to discourage heterosexual marriage until the disease is eliminated?

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Dec 14 - 09:14 AM

Get serious guest, if a new terminal STD appeared amongst heterosexuals at the rates of HIV amongst MSM......we would not have to worry about marriage rights!

Humanity would be five minutes from extinction.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Some bloke in Scotland
Date: 06 Dec 14 - 10:09 AM

So, lets get serious;

In The UK,

33% of people receiving treatment for HIV are women.

The largest percentage of all people living with HIV are heterosexual sex acquired, at 48%

HIV acquired by gay men having sex is 44%

Don't take my word for it.

People living with HIV

If Akenaton's answer was applied to the real picture, black people make up just 1.8% of the population but 36% of people living with HIV.

So, prevent black people from getting married?

Why does he lie to justify his irrational hatred? Only 5% of people in The UK with HIV are in Scotland anyway.

I suggest anybody who wonders if Akenaton or Keith A of Hertford have a point clicks on the link and indeed the links from and around that page.

The truth is, there is no substance for his hatred other than hatred itself. I don't like the idea that someone lives not too far from my home who has such an outlook on life. He is a shame to our wonderful set of communities around the loch.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Dec 14 - 11:23 AM

""According to the Centers and Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), Hispanics have a disproportionately high HIV infection rate. In fact, the CDC has found that Hispanics living in the United States have an HIV infection rate that is more than three times higher than Caucasians.""

Ban "latino" marriage?


Latinos 

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Dec 14 - 11:27 AM

From Some Bloke's link: fewer than three people per thousand are living with HIV in the UK. Now that is not good, but it isn't a plague either.

Another thing: 95% of people with HIV acquired it via sex without a condom. Cor. So what can we draw from that? Lessee:

Ban gay marriage? Yes or no? If yes, tell us how that would help.

Herd gay men into clinics for compulsory testing? Yes or no? If yes, what do we then do with the HIV-positive guys? And could the negative guys, a huge majority of those tested, sue us for false arrest or something like that?

Provide freely-available cheap or free condoms along with advice? Yes or no?

Radically improve sex and relationships education in schools (a disgrace at the moment)? Yes or no? (I seem to remember Ake dismissing that as irrelevsnt...)

The facts and figures should be there to inform our next practical moves in order to reduce the incidence of infection, not provide a platform from which homophobes and assorted moralisers can triumphally preach their bigotry. HIV is a primarily a practical issue, as is abortion, not a moral one, and it needs practical solutions. When I was at school, both as a pupil and later as a teacher, the people who, on the whole, were by far the most damaging in terms of relationships education were the people who thought sex was mostly a bad thing most of the time, that is, the nuns and priests. Far from helping, they just got in the way of progress. In the same way, the last people we need to be listening to on the matter of HIV rates are told-you-so homophobes, of whom we have a prime example in our midst, to the eternal shame of this forum.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 06 Dec 14 - 11:49 AM

The actual facts and figures are used to plan, commission and fund health, social and educational services. The education side is patchy, especially with faith schools allowed to opt out of sexual health education.

I have been up till recently very involved in this, yet have had to put up with Akenaton and Keith calling me a liar and disgrace to the healthcare service. Then they put their own slant, distortion and porkies forward to question the very existence of gay people. Keith last week started rattling on about me being wrong about a report that I helped quality assure and another (ex) Mudcatter helped write... Then, being Keith, provided a link to the report that said what I said it did anyway! I assume he thinks most people read his bile and take it on the chin without clicking the link. The problem is, some homophobes are more intelligent in their own way and we can see in religious and right wing political circles, they have credibility and influence.

Homophobia is a problem. Waiting for homophobes to die, Al's solution, is all well and good but in the meantime they use every avenue they can to sow the seeds of doubt in people's minds.

It is so sad that a music site with so much to offer is allowing itself to be a tool for incitement to hatred. Hatred of quite a few members of Mudcat for that matter. But moderators don't seem to take that into account.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Dec 14 - 11:57 AM

Guest, your figures as presented are invalid as they do not take into account the difference in percentage of the population, between heteros and MSM

There are almost one hundred times more heterosexuals than MSM in our population.
Anyway, argue with CDC and PHE not me, they provide the definitive figures.
Why do you not write and complain about THEIR lies?
CDC say 78% of all new infections are amongst MSM
PHE say 60% of all new infections are amongst MSM

I do NOT! say that all MSM carry the virus, but an unacceptable percentage rate DO.....please understand that something must be done to arrest the rise in infections

In Cuba, the disease was almost completely eliminated by Fidel Castro's regime using regular testing and contact tracing.

Please give us your views on how you would tackle the problem, suggesting that there is no problem will not be acceptable to thinking people.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 06 Dec 14 - 12:20 PM

Now he is saying The National AIDS Trust are lying. As they are quoting (and providing a link to) PHE, I think they are telling the truth, don't you?

If you have nothing to justify villifying gay men, and bear in mind there is nothing for you to present anyway, is there any chance whatsoever of you apologising to the gay folk music aficionados on Mudcat for your behaviour?

Alternatively, what are you going to suggest to tackle all the black men and women at risk here, or, as you love to confuse our figures with USA figures, all the Heterosexual Hispanics?

Just out of interest, our screening programme is far more successful than the Cuban one. They class their results on those receiving antiretrovirals, and the majority cannot afford them, the state system has to ration them. Additionally, Cuban health workers insisted on it being voluntary screening so as not to ruin their chances of working abroad. South Africa especially has a reciprocal arrangement and they would strike off doctors and nurses involved in assault, regardless of which country. Just as we recently struck off an American doctor working here who was found to have been involved in executing prisoners in The States.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Dec 14 - 12:23 PM

Most of this stuff/opinions (prejudiced, or otherwise) , and local cherry-picked statistics (picked, IMO, to justify broader opinions) have been discussed not that long ago-even by some of the same posters.

So, what's new?

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 06 Dec 14 - 01:38 PM

Fuck all is new.

HIV rates are constantly shown to be a mixed bag. HIV rates have nothing to do with being gay any more than they have anything to do with being heterosexual.

There are some, two in particular who would have people believe otherwise. Whenever they publish hatred, I shall confront it. So, it seems, will others.

Nothing new to see here.



Actually, there is something new. He rattles on about Cuba, whose health ministry worked with us to introduce screening and did a fairly good job of it. The one problem, as reported in the Lancet, British Medical Journal and elsewhere was that they chose to use numbers of people receiving antiretrovirals, which misses a large part of their population. Still, they mean't well and could speak of success. Sadly, the large rural population, especially young female sex workers slip through the net.

In the UK, the take up of screening is a huge success story, with new infections being caught at an early stage and late diagnosis falling, especially in the vulnerable segment of the gay population. Less so with sub Sahara origin heterosexuals, but working on it.

And as ever, sexual infections absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with being gay, straight or chasing sheep in a field. Anybody is vulnerable in any situation if they don't take precautions, and much safer if they do. The largest rampant sexually transmitted disease is Chlamydia, but despite making young women barren and shattering future family life, the crocodile tears concern for the population from Akenaton doesn't seem to touch it, as it is rarely a gay problem.

Funny that.

Actually, it isn't funny at all. Its sick.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Dec 14 - 03:07 PM

From reading over the document below, it seems that Cuba pretty much followed what World HIV health organizations suggests. Because of cuba's small size, social and political structure, relatively isolated nature (while many tourits visit resort areas, opportunities for sexual interaction is limited),and exphasis on health and education, detection, treztment and education initiatives was easier to deliver than in more complex situations.

However, what is interesting is when MSM rates began to rise, efforts werd made to increase social acceptance of gays, including in schools-versus Ake's approach to furtger demonize and stigmatize the gsy community.


""Since the 1990s, when the Cuban HIV epidemic became one characterized as being most prevalent among MSM, the question of public education — in particular dealing with the compound issue of homophobia in a macho Latino culture and of public stigmatization of and discrimination against HIV patients — has required greater focus. Campaigns in support of sexual diversity, considered a part of the "social inclusion" policy, are first introduced to children through the school system, which begins sex education (including sexual diversity education) at grade five. The national program, including a TV soap opera with gay and lesbian individuals as well as characters who are HIV-positive, is led by the National Center for Sex Education (CENESEX). The Federation of Cuban Women (FMC) began sex education programs in the early 1970s and set up CENESEX in 1989. Led by Mariela Castro (daughter of Raul Castro and the late Vilma Espín, a founder of the FMC), CENESEX stresses acceptance of sexual diversity and has attracted international attention in recent years for its campaigns for the rights of transgender persons, including the recognition of an individual's gender identity, regardless of birth sex, and provision of state-funded sexual reassignment surgery.61

Cuba's National Center for the Prevention of STDs and HIV/AIDS, with international support (for example, from the United Nations Development Programme [UNDP]), hosts training programs, assessment, and research in-person and helpline telephone counseling, networking, condom distribution, help for mutual support groups, nutrition education, and support for vulnerable groups. An "Afroache" program trains educators and develops specially focused educational materials for addressing the issues from that religious perspective as it is practiced in Cuba.62 Although churches appear to have no great influence on the educational campaign or the use of condoms, some of the material developed by the National Center includes the basic information that safe sex includes abstinence and that this is the only form of safe sex endorsed by the Catholic Church. Nevertheless, most materials provide an overwhelming emphasis on the use of condoms, which are distributed freely, in the millions, through the National Center.

Education programs must be periodically reviewed. The manual for groups working in HIV/AIDS prevention refers to a method developed by US academic Dr. David Kolb. This method is a teaching and learning process that emphasizes a circular relationship among concrete experience, observation and reflection, conceptualization, and practice.63 Long-term cooperation was also developed with some international agencies, in particular the World Health Organization and the UNDP. The National Center for the Prevention of STDs and HIV/AIDS, for example, was created in 1998 with support from the UNDP and Doctors without Borders (Holland) to help expand HIV education.64

Many of the health promotion pamphlets that this author observed in use during 2005–2006 were aimed at the general population, with some material aimed more directly at men who have sex with men (for example, "Siempre conmigo/Always with me" and "Hablando entre nosotros/Speaking amongst ourselves") or addressing the male responsibility for condom use (for example, "Los hombres marcan la diferencia/Men make the difference"). Another national pamphlet addressed cultural attitudes, urging, "Judge your friends by their qualities, not by their sexual orientation," and stressing acceptance of sexual diversity to counter prejudices and stigmas. This pamphlet states that lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender identities are all valid forms of sexuality and gender identity and that "understanding and accepting people as they are, will make you grow as a better person" (for example, a pamphlet titled, "He is also one of us"). Local music stars have been enlisted to help promote safe sex, for example in the national HIV magazine Lazo Adentro.65

Cuba 

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 06 Dec 14 - 03:35 PM

Thank you Ed.

Not often someone tries to understand a subject.

You truly are a threat to bigotry at times.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Dec 14 - 03:51 PM

You're a good man, Ed. Kudos!

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Depressed
Date: 06 Dec 14 - 06:19 PM

Oh dear. The same old same old. Whatever thread is started ends in a political/semantic battle. Isn't it time to pull the plug on this weary old site?

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Dec 14 - 06:48 PM

No.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Dec 14 - 07:54 PM

Cuba's success in fighting the aids epidemic was based on rigorous testing, contact tracing and the use of sanatoria in the 80s and nineties.

"Dr Byron Barksdale, director of the Cuban AIDS Project, an American charity, says "The US can learn a lot of things from Cuba about HIV/AIDS." He told the annual meeting of the American Association for the Advancement of Science this year that the US too should educate people intensively if they are newly diagnosed with HIV infection. "I don't know if six weeks or eight weeks are the magic numbers," he said referring to the education programme, "but that is certainly a longer time than is given to people in the US who receive such a diagnosis. They may get about five minutes' worth of education."

But he also admits to cultural differences between the two countries that would make it difficult to implement the Cuban model. "In the US, the rights of the individual are foremost, but in Cuba the individual is expected to do what is necessary to protect the collective society." That is why people in high risk categories are willing to roll up their sleeves and not protest HIV tests, he adds. In Havana the law is clear on both the rights and duties of HIV-carriers, and those suspected of being infected. Anyone who is HIV positive, who does not use a condom and does not tell their sexual partner, commits a crime."

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Dec 14 - 08:05 PM

So what exactly is your point?

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Dec 14 - 09:08 PM

""Cuba's success in fighting the aids epidemic was based on rigorous testing, contact tracing and the use of sanatoria in the 80s and nineties.""

The site/source I linked to says that this is not so.

Regardless of the actual reasons, just because measures were successful in Cuba- where the level of government control on society and individuals is comprehensive, does not mean they would be effective or deemed acceptable by societies elsewhere.

However, it is impressive that the Cuban government recognized the importance of reducing the negative stigma that gays faced in that society and actually did something to try and turn it around.

I have been in Cuba very many times and have been impressed that the government puts a big priority on excellent health care for its citizens. I have also noticed that prostitution and intervenous drug use are comparatively low, two major transmission routes in most other nations.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 07 Dec 14 - 03:16 AM

Cuba had a good base to begin with. My main concern is that a poor county propping up a decent health service is always exploited.

Cuban medical schools churn out doctors at state expense. They are fully accredited and only need article 14 (an exam) in order to practice on many first world countries. Cuba has a trading deal with South Africa.

What happens is that Cuban doctors emigrate, as the deal allows, to South Africa where they can get more pay and a better quality of life. Their visa however does not allow them to seek employment in other countries without claiming asylum.

South African doctors, being priced out, move to The EU, especially The UK and Germany.

The upshot? The only countries not having the training expense are those that can afford to train!

It's a problem. Not sure what you do about it though.

Anyway, as the myth of Cuba is now put to bed, and I have been there too, both in business many years ago and more recently advising on clinical governance, we can again ask what any of this has to do with Akenaton and his hatred of gay people. If he has a solution for HIV, he should address the issues.

If he has a problem sharing the planet with others, I suggest an easy solution.