Oh! What a Lovely War! - BBC Radio 2

Subject: Oh! What a Lovely War! - BBC Radio 2
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Nov 14 - 09:17 AM

Oh! What a Lovely War! - BBC Radio 2

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03thcl8

As Britain and the world sets out to mark the centenary of the start of WW1 in 1914, Radio 2 begins its commemorations with by broadcasting Tony Award winning director Terry Johnson's new production of "Oh What A Lovely War" performed at The Theatre Royal Stratford East, the theatre where it was created by Joan Littlewood and the Theatre Workshop half a century ago. The ensemble includes Caroline Quentin and the music is directed by Mike Dixon.

In 1963, despite it being 45 years since the end of the First World War, the debut performance of Joan Littlewood's musical that delivered a satirical slant on the horrific events of the Great War, sent shock waves through British society. This society was yet to embrace the freedom of the sixties and was still recovering from the brutal reality of another World War and so wanted to bury its head in the sand rather than face the human cost that war brings.

"Oh What A Lovely War" is perhaps the best known stage play attacking the Great War. This musical comedy has always been controversial and has enormous impact. Even in 1963, almost half a century after the war, the musical was refused a license for a West End performance, until Princess Margaret, who saw it in Stratford remarked to the Lord Chamberlain: "What you've said here tonight should have been said long ago, don't you agree?" It went on to be a huge stage success, before heading to Broadway and film.

The musical takes the form of an end of the pier Pierrot show comprising a series of popular songs of the period , "It's a Long Way to Tipperary," "Pack up Your Troubles", "Oh What A Lovely War" and "Keep the Home Fires Burning", intercut with satirical sketches and arranged in such a way as to map out the progress of the war.

CJB

Subject: RE: Oh! What a Lovely War! - BBC Radio 2
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Nov 14 - 11:57 AM

A brilliant film, with more feeling about it than all the modern songs about that appalling event

Subject: RE: Oh! What a Lovely War! - BBC Radio 2
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 13 Nov 14 - 02:30 PM

Not the film, this is a sound recording of the recent stage production. Your thanks for the compliments on the film though - there are few left who did summat towards it, and as I did a teeny bit, I'd better speak for people far better than I.
The question was rather about the underlying State diktat of the day, although the film also picked up on the Vietnam War. The assumption of the power of the Civil Service to have its way unquestioned had reached the point where the Nation would no longer tolerate it. The Profumo Affair was going on in the background of the first production, and luxury products were heavily taxed (50%) as a form of substitute rationing on a very arbitrary basis. This would in due course become VAT. A similar sense was encapsulated at the same time as the film in Bill Pertwee's incessant attacks on Captain Mainwaring as "Napoleon": one never had to look far for someone from WWII who still thought he had the same rights to boss everyonbe around he had then.
The cutting edge of the stage show was not so much the songs as the real-life data portrayed alongside it. I guess they'll have to do it by voiceovers: the more stuck-up BBC Announcerish the better, the entire point is that this data was available at the time but was ignored as politically "inappropriate".

Subject: RE: Oh! What a Lovely War! - BBC Radio 2
From: Rain Dog
Date: 14 Nov 14 - 06:30 AM

There was a documentary about Joan Littlewood on BBC Radio 2 on Monday 10th November. It will be available on the BBC iplayer for 4 weeks


To commemorate Joan Littlewood's centenary, Catherine Tate hears from the stars of stage and screen who experienced the legendary directorial methods of the 'Mother of Modern Theatre'.

By the time 'Oh! What A Lovely War' premiered in 1963 the illegitimate daughter of a book-hating teenager in Stockwell had earned herself a place at RADA, formed her own Theatre company, been banned from the BBC and had three shows transferred to the West End.

Catherine traces Joan's personal struggles and creative triumphs, discovering how one woman shook the foundations of the British establishment and changed the face of theatre forever.

The Mother of Modern Theatre

Subject: RE: Oh! What a Lovely War! - BBC Radio 2
From: Thomas Stern
Date: 14 Nov 14 - 08:06 PM

Is the Stratford East production from the beginning of this year
going to be available on CD or DVD ???
I do not see it listed at Amazon, though the Joan Littlewood 1964 production recording, and the film soundtrack are available.

Thomas.

Subject: RE: Oh! What a Lovely War! - BBC Radio 2
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 15 Nov 14 - 01:17 PM

Alan Clark's first book, The Donkeys (1961), was a revisionist history of the British Expeditionary Force's campaigns at the beginning of World War I.

The book's title was drawn from the expression "Lions led by donkeys" which has been widely used to compare British soldiers with their commanders.

The book was considered to be the inspiration for the popular pacifist musical Oh, What a Lovely War! and Clark, after legal wrangles, was awarded some royalties. (Wikipedia)

Subject: RE: Oh! What a Lovely War! - BBC Radio 2
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 15 Nov 14 - 03:41 PM

Look, mate, we dealt with that crap last year. The history of OWALW is thoroughly established and you pervert it: I can only presume the rest of what you put in print here to is equally unreliable.
Putting up your own fallacious stalking horse and then shooting it down simply betrays you as a twit of the first water.

Subject: RE: Oh! What a Lovely War! - BBC Radio 2
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 16 Nov 14 - 02:18 AM

The Broadhurst Theatre Playbill for November 1964 credits Alan Clark.

What, then, was his contribution?

Subject: RE: Oh! What a Lovely War! - BBC Radio 2
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Nov 14 - 02:30 AM

Rahere -- Purely for info, who is the 'mate' with whom you are getting so annoyed? And why? I am much exercised as to what you are getting so heated about.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: Oh! What a Lovely War! - BBC Radio 2
From: Musket
Date: 16 Nov 14 - 02:40 AM

You need to keep exercising. Good for you.

Subject: RE: Oh! What a Lovely War! - BBC Radio 2
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 16 Nov 14 - 06:28 AM

Henryp was mmy target, the poster immediately before mine.
You know I did a little bit in the doing of that film, and know the background. I in particular bear the opprobrium of Joan Plowright for what I did, having found those uniforms, so I know exactly where she was coming from. However much the Revisionists may hate the criticism, it is necessary and objective, and to argue differently is an attempt to limit our freedom of expression in reminding the Nation of the other side of the story, the bits they chose, curiously, to disregard.

I think it's time to go on the offensive, paying them back with their own currency. Prove your claims, that every man on the Western Front marched cheerfully into the teeth of the enemy's guns with narry a murmur of complaint.

Anyone else here held a post in a military high command? Be thankful that people like me exist there and are not afraid to hold our line, I was in no way untypical: the commanders now are very careful of our men. It's why only 453 men died in the Afghan war, which, I would remind you, was fought over a very similar area and for three times as line.

Subject: RE: Oh! What a Lovely War! - BBC Radio 2
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Nov 14 - 06:33 AM

Thank you. I regret I have no way of knowing who is behind your nickname, or what your service history may be.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: Oh! What a Lovely War! - BBC Radio 2
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 16 Nov 14 - 09:26 AM

Has anyone seen my stalking horse? It was here just a minute ago.

Subject: RE: Oh! What a Lovely War! - BBC Radio 2
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Nov 14 - 09:57 AM

... though I recall, some 50+ years ago, my late first wife had impacted wisdom teeth effectively removed at Barts. Were you by any chance involved in that operation?

Subject: RE: Oh! What a Lovely War! - BBC Radio 2
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 16 Nov 14 - 02:07 PM

Probably :) My avatar founded the place, and I post under his name because he started as an entertainer in the courts of the mighty and found a conscience. The fact that he employed one of the few professional farters on record as his assistant is a pure bonus.

Me, I was HQ Accountant, also covering Operations, for WEU, the European Defence Diplomatic HQ, and did things far beyond beancounting - there are many beancounters, but not many who've done what I have - and that's all you'll get on that subject. WEU implemented the Petersberg Tasks, laying the foundations and establishing the methods of peacemaking, which won the 2012 Nobel Peace Prize. In that role, one of the decisions I made made what became the Afghan War very likely, and I will NOT dishonour the 453 deaths which resulted by allowing fictions to be imputed if I can refute them. My Christian vocation was declared to the Organisation before I ever started, and that showed itself at the very start of my involvement in the Military, when finding my first uniform I also found the uniforms used in the filming of Oh! What a Lovely War!

My great-grandfather, Louis Nestor Guiot, was a Captain in the Belgian Army who won the Chevalier de l'Ordre de Léopold with Oakleaves on the field of battle of the First Battle of the Yser, twice, by order of the King of Belgium, commanding what was left of his Army. That's roughly VC and bar in UK terms.

I consequently have responsibilities both to my family and to myself not to allow the ghosts of the past to overshadow the present. The reasons Haig had were for his time. If you insist on not learning the lessons of that War, then you will be responsible for condemning our descendants to learn the lessons again for themselves. As someone who has knowingly taken that responsibility, as the least bad option, then I must do as much as i can to warn you it's a bad idea.

Having done what I've done, when the proponents of jingoism, who have not, persist in their pernitious mythology, I get irritated, because they're calling me a liar. I have put my hide in the way of harm, and so have earned the hard way the right to warn you against the siren song of those who not only have not, and therefore are speaking out of their arses, but who also have allowed themselves to be seduced by fife and drum. Yes, we need military in case we're wrong, but no, we do not need to deify them either. They start as ordinary folks and are trained according to their aptitudes. What we do NOT need is some polly who's got a dose of megalomania developing a Napoleon complex, as it's kind of rare to see them and theirs paying the butcher's bill themselves.

Subject: RE: Oh! What a Lovely War! - BBC Radio 2
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 16 Nov 14 - 05:09 PM

Moderator; I think that you can close this thread too.

Subject: RE: Oh! What a Lovely War! - BBC Radio 2
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Nov 14 - 11:46 PM

Thank you, R. Most enlightening. Some ancestral nachas, as they say in Yiddish. Your avatar was also, of course, a most humorous fellow!

≈M≈

Subject: RE: Oh! What a Lovely War! - BBC Radio 2
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 17 Nov 14 - 04:17 AM

Pretty disgusting behaviour, Henryp.
Firstly you want to throw your weight around bullying everyone into poppy worship, then you want the discussion closed down when you discover you've got someone on your case who actually knows what they're on about because they've done it, unlike most of the armchair warriors proposing the case.
There's an old music-hall song on the subject, "Two lovely mince pies" or summat like it, given we're not far off Xmas. You start it, you take your lumps. The point of the threads was to criticise your kind of behaviour, so take the criticism and learn from it. By going too far you play into the hands of the real pacifists, because those of us who feel armed force should only be an in extremis response - which is a bit like saying don't start punchups because nobody comes out ahead - have to demolish your case. Still, given the choice, I'd rather relate to a pacifist than a thug.

Subject: RE: Oh! What a Lovely War! - BBC Radio 2
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 17 Nov 14 - 04:18 AM

Moderator;

Like the No man's land protest thread, this thread too has departed from discussion about the topic.

You have closed the other thread; you could close this one too.

Subject: RE: Oh! What a Lovely War! - BBC Radio 2
From: Musket
Date: 17 Nov 14 - 04:34 AM

Any chance of closing Henryp?

People who glorify death and futility are usually rather disturbed. What is most disturbing is this specimen's shouting for closure when it realises not everybody is a sociopath in the way his or her comments come over as demonstrating.

Subject: RE: Oh! What a Lovely War! - BBC Radio 2
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Nov 14 - 05:01 AM

Who glorifies death and futility?
Musket is in making shit up mode again.
This show mocks the men who did not think it futile to stand against and stop ruthless, cruel aggression.

Subject: RE: Oh! What a Lovely War! - BBC Radio 2
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 17 Nov 14 - 05:39 AM

The moderator chose to close the No man's land protest thread.

This thread has followed the same route.

Subject: RE: Oh! What a Lovely War! - BBC Radio 2
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Nov 14 - 05:47 AM

"Alan Clark's first book, The Donkeys (1961), was a revisionist history of the British Expeditionary Force's campaigns at the beginning of World War I.

The book's title was drawn from the expression "Lions led by donkeys" which has been widely used to compare British soldiers with their commanders.

The book was considered to be the inspiration for the popular pacifist musical Oh, What a Lovely War! and Clark, after legal wrangles, was awarded some royalties. (Wikipedia)" - GUEST,henryp

Wrong Henry - The expression "Lions led by donkeys" was coined by Alan Clark in order to sell his book.

Google "The Donkey's" and the wiki link gives you this:

"Alan Clark based the title of his book "The Donkeys" (1961) on the phrase. Prior to publication in a letter to Hugh Trevor Roper, he asked "English soldiers, lions led by donkeys etc - can you remember who said that?" Liddell Hart, although he did not dispute the veracity of the quote, had asked Clark for its origins.[7] Whatever Trevor Roper's reply, Clark eventually used the phrase as an epigraph to The Donkeys and attributed it to a conversation between German generals Erich Ludendorff and Max Hoffmann:

Ludendorff: The English soldiers fight like lions.
Hoffmann: True. But don't we know that they are lions led by donkeys."[1][2]

The conversation was supposedly published in the memoirs of General Erich von Falkenhayn, the German chief of staff between 1914 and 1916 but the exchange and the memoirs remain untraced.[1] Clark was equivocal about the source for the dialogue for many years, although in 2007 a friend Euan Graham, recalled a conversation in the mid-sixties, when Clark on being challenged as to the dialogue's provenance, looked sheepish and said "WELL I INVENTED IT"."

Anyone thinking that the likes of "Braveheart", "Blackadder Goes Forth" or "Oh What A Lovely War" cast any light on the times or events around which they were based really needs to have their bumps read. Their perniciousness lies in the fact that they have established and perpetuated idiotic myths and falsehoods related to the actual events and in doing so they denegrate and dishonour the sacrifices made by far,far better men and women. While all may be considered "entertainment" - History they most certainly are not."

Subject: RE: Oh! What a Lovely War! - BBC Radio 2
From: Musket
Date: 17 Nov 14 - 05:59 AM

I think you will find it is little men who "denigrate and dishonour the sacrifices" not those who can see objectively.

Their deaths, if they mean anything, serve to prevent us seeing good in conflict. Sanitising the gross stupidity, callousness and criminal incompetence of the day may be entertainment to some but society is more advanced these days, thank you very much.

Comparing the views of historians and saying "every historian" followed by "oh, err.. every LIVING historian" followed by "well, nearly every historian" just makes defence of slaughter risible.

Subject: RE: Oh! What a Lovely War! - BBC Radio 2
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Nov 14 - 08:57 AM

I agree there is no good in conflict Musket, but in 1914 and 1939 what choice was there but to stand against an invading aggressor?
I am grateful to those who made that stand for the better world I was born into.
Jim Radford put it well,
"Those of you who were unborn,
And live in liberty,
Should remember those who made it so,"

Subject: RE: Oh! What a Lovely War! - BBC Radio 2
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 17 Nov 14 - 09:53 AM

"Wrong Henry - The expression "Lions led by donkeys" was coined by Alan Clark in order to sell his book."

I've no desire to be drawn into your hostilities, Terribus, but the phrase predates not only Alan Clark's book The Donkeys (1961) but the Great War too.

Clark invented not the phrase but its provenance! According to Wikipedia, he prefaced his book with a supposed dialogue between two generals and attributed the dialogue to the memoirs of German general Erich von Falkenhayn.

I simply noted that, again according to Wikipedia, the book was considered to be the inspiration for Oh, What a Lovely War! As the Broadhurst Theatre Playbill for November 1964 credits Alan Clark, it appears that he did indeed have some input.

I've no idea why you or Rahere should take such exception to the post and accuse me of inaccuracy. Should they be offered, your apologies would be graciously accepted. Carry on.

Subject: RE: Oh! What a Lovely War! - BBC Radio 2
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Nov 14 - 10:11 AM

Only running from the simple question put to the Author Alan Clark i.e.
Question "Where did it come from?

Answer from Alan Clark "Well I invented it"

I've got no difficulty in understanding that, we know that the man was a dissembling liar, and I most certainly do not give much credence to a "so-called-historian" who simply makes stuff up. Particularly when many others take the trouble and do the work to get things right.

If the book was considered to be the inspiration for the play then it logically turns out that "Oh What A Lovely War" can only be classified as being shit based on shit.

Subject: RE: Oh! What a Lovely War! - BBC Radio 2
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 17 Nov 14 - 10:26 AM

No, Teribus! What you actually posted was;

Clark was equivocal about the source for the dialogue for many years, although in 2007 a friend Euan Graham, recalled a conversation in the mid-sixties, when Clark on being challenged as to the dialogue's provenance, looked sheepish and said "WELL I INVENTED IT"."

If you're not happy with the content of Wikipedia, then your argument lies with them, not me.

Subject: RE: Oh! What a Lovely War! - BBC Radio 2
From: Musket
Date: 17 Nov 14 - 11:07 AM

The bits I like are prefaced with "according to Wikipedia."

Eminent historians indeed...

😹



Keith. You can be grateful without making those leading them look better than they were... You make it sound as if only those who are sucked into the sanitisation of incompetence and indifference feel a debt of gratitude. Very shallow remark, even by your standards.

Subject: RE: Oh! What a Lovely War! - BBC Radio 2
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Nov 14 - 11:13 AM

You say incompetence and indifference.
Every historian says the opposite.
You are fully entitled to imagine yourself better informed.
We are all fully entitled to see you as an ignorant, preening buffoon.

Subject: RE: Oh! What a Lovely War! - BBC Radio 2
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Nov 14 - 12:06 PM

Here we go again, no wonder Richard Atternborough portrayed the cause of the war going round and round in circles on a merry-go-round.
However, when Henryp commented that this thread was lining up to be closed, he used a passive tense rather than taaking responsibility for his role in doing so.

I think I now have my signature

Make peace not war.

Subject: RE: Oh! What a Lovely War! - BBC Radio 2
From: Musket
Date: 17 Nov 14 - 02:52 PM

Every historian doesn't say the men were well led.

On the basis they weren't.

See Mudcat for details

zzz

Subject: RE: Oh! What a Lovely War! - BBC Radio 2
From: Musket
Date: 17 Nov 14 - 03:12 PM

Subject: RE: WWI, was No-Man's Land
From: GUEST,Raggytash - PM
Date: 17 Nov 14 - 02:34 PM

Keith,

On the previous thread I quoted various historians who suggested that the leadership of the troops was less than competent.

You then said that "modern" historians had a different view. I did a bit of background work on some of the historians you had referred me to. (you had mentioned these people on a previous thread and pointed me in that direction)

May I be allowed to quote the one or two of the self same historians you referred to:-

David Stephenson, with regard to WW1 "a futile struggle for obscure and ignoble ends, managed by inept political leaders and unimaginative generals"

Richard Holmes (himself once a brigadier)with regard to Gallipoli "I wanted to show just how lunatic the whole concept of the campaign was"

Peter Hart with regard to the Somme "Haig's Big Push was a human catastrophe" "Passchendaele came to epitomise the futility and pathos of the whole of WW1"

If you are going to argue a corner please, at least, ensure your information is correct.

There are always belligerent bastards around, like me, who will check your "facts"

Subject: RE: Oh! What a Lovely War! - BBC Radio 2
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Nov 14 - 05:42 PM

First your David Stephenson quote.
Here is the whole thing.
What he really says is the EXACT OPPOSITE of of what you dishonestly claim.

"With Cataclysm, David Stevenson draws on much recent work to provide a comprehensives account of the war, with a welcome interest both in the non-European theatres and in the home fronts. His book is also part of a more general attempt to rethink the meaning of the Great War and situate it in the history of the 20th century.

Like many of his fellow historians, Stevenson challenges much of the accepted wisdom – for example, that the generals had no ideas about how to break the deadlock – yet the prevalent view of the war remains under the influence of the highly critical literature of the late 1920s and early 1930s, with its emphasis on the horrors of the trenches and its portrayal of a futile struggle for obscure or ignoble ends, managed by inept political leaders and unimaginative generals. How many of us saw Oh! What a Lovely War with a slight sense of superiority to the people of the past, so easily duped?"

Subject: RE: Oh! What a Lovely War! - BBC Radio 2
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Nov 14 - 06:08 PM

What Richard Holmes really said, according to the Guardian.
"Holmes is good on war and rearmament, as he should be, though some of his opinions are unexpected: he calls the Gallipoli campaign (more than 20,000 British dead) 'a relatively minor episode' and he thinks that Passchendaele (more than 500,000 casualties on both sides) was a 'grimly successful exercise of attrition by the Allies'. "

Subject: RE: Oh! What a Lovely War! - BBC Radio 2
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Nov 14 - 06:54 PM

More dishonesty!
Peter Hart never made that quote either!

Here is an extract from a review of his book The Great War from War History Online.

"Hart does not duck some of the wider issues that are raised by the war. He writes from a tradition of British military history that for 30 years has sought to rescue the reputations of generals such as Sir Douglas Haig, the British commander on the western front for most of the conflict, and to show that the entire war cannot be summed up in the ghastly first day of the Battle of the Somme, when the British army suffered its highest-ever number of casualties."

Subject: RE: Oh! What a Lovely War! - BBC Radio 2
From: Musket
Date: 18 Nov 14 - 04:40 AM

"Sought to rescue"

Mmmmm

Subject: RE: Oh! What a Lovely War! - BBC Radio 2
From: Musket
Date: 18 Nov 14 - 04:41 AM

sought to rescue

Mmmmm...



💤

Subject: RE: Oh! What a Lovely War! - BBC Radio 2
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Nov 14 - 05:27 AM

Yes, for thirty years British Historians have sought to rescue reputations traduced by revisionists like Clarke after Haig's death.

Subject: RE: Oh! What a Lovely War! - BBC Radio 2
From: Musket
Date: 18 Nov 14 - 06:04 AM

Who is Clarke?

Subject: RE: Oh! What a Lovely War! - BBC Radio 2
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 18 Nov 14 - 07:17 AM

Perhaps I might be allowed a brief mention of music on this thread.

I heard Coope Boyes and Simpson sing this Jim Boyes song last night.

We don't seek to lay the blame
Every year we stand in silence round this flame
Seeking only to explain
That we can't let what happened then happen again
A living monument to war
Lest we forget the lessons of before

It was a very affecting experience.

Subject: RE: Oh! What a Lovely War! - BBC Radio 2
From: Musket
Date: 18 Nov 14 - 07:44 AM

The best way to ensure it doesn't happen again is to accept what happened and make sure it doesn't happen again.

If it was well led we would risk repeating it

"again and again and again and again."

Prat

Subject: RE: Oh! What a Lovely War! - BBC Radio 2
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Nov 14 - 08:08 AM

Guest,henryp I would suggest that you look up the meaning of "To coin" something as in "To coin a phrase".

Alan Clark, did coin the phrase {something you say before using an expression that has been used too much} "Lions led by donkeys" to give title to and to denigrate those he mentions in his book.

He did invent the story that the phrase came from a discussion between to very senior German Officers. He did that and spread that deliberate lie in order to reinforce the message he tried to peddle in his book.

I personally do not think much of any historian who just invents stuff and then just sits back quietly collecting coin while his rather poor history is then used and abused until the misconception is reached where people think that the book covers the entire period of the Great War instead of only one year of it.

I think that you will find elsewhere I did turn up one possible origin of the phrase:

"The phrase Lions Led by Donkeys was used as a title for a book published in 1927 by Captain P.A. Thompson. The subtitle of this book was "Showing how victory in the Great War was achieved by those who made the fewest mistakes."

Now then if the Allies were victorious in the Great War would that make them the ones who made the fewest mistakes? If so then they could not possibly be the donkeys being referred to in the title could they?

Yes Musket "sought to rescue" due to complete and utter clots such as yourself relying on fiction and your own imagination to provide you with information relating to historical events.

Subject: RE: Oh! What a Lovely War! - BBC Radio 2
From: Musket
Date: 18 Nov 14 - 08:59 AM

I wonder how many men would have died if they hadn't been so caring, professional and showed such wonderful leadership?

Have you any idea how absurd your idealistic romantic view is?

Subject: RE: Oh! What a Lovely War! - BBC Radio 2
From: Musket
Date: 18 Nov 14 - 09:11 AM

Boom Boom Boom Boom Boom Boom Boom

Subject: RE: Oh! What a Lovely War! - BBC Radio 2
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Nov 14 - 09:48 AM

"Absurd, idealistic, romantic view."

The view T and I have expressed is that of every living historian.
As such it is a lot more credible than your fantasies based on lies, myths and politics.

Subject: RE: Oh! What a Lovely War! - BBC Radio 2
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Nov 14 - 10:06 AM

Rahere, Musket and Teribus

As I haven't offered any personal views on the conduct of the Great War, I am at a loss to understand how you can criticise my views.

From: Teribus Date: 17 Nov 14 - 10:11 AM
Only running from the simple question put to the Author Alan Clark i.e.
Question "Where did it come from?
Answer from Alan Clark "Well I invented it"

Teribus, do stop squirming over your claim about the origin of the phrase 'lions led by donkeys'.

Clark did not invent the phrase. And, as you have now confirmed, it was already well-known when he published his book. Indeed, to call his book The Donkeys would have been pointless had it not been.

Returning to the thread for a moment, do you accept Wikipedia's claim that the book had an influence on the show? If not, why then did Alan Clark receive a credit in the playbill?

Subject: RE: Oh! What a Lovely War! - BBC Radio 2
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 18 Nov 14 - 10:29 AM

I beg your pardon - that was from me!

Subject: RE: Oh! What a Lovely War! - BBC Radio 2
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Nov 14 - 10:40 AM

henryp - he called the book "The Donkey's" because in the Foreword to the book Clark inserted a reference to an imaginary conversation he dreamed up and attributed to two German Officer's. That is all I have ever contended. When asked for provenance for this quote he admitted that he had invented it. That is perfectly clear in my first post mentioning this.

Oh I am sure that the left-wing-luvvies who staged the show then made the film were influenced by Clark's appalling book - but Clark's book only dealt with the BEF under the Command of Sir John French in 1915 whereas the left-wing-luvvies translated that to cover the entire war and tar it with the same brush - that was the travesty - evidenced here by the number of complete and utter dolts who believe that OWALW is fact - it isn't, it never was, it was crap based on crap.

Subject: RE: Oh! What a Lovely War! - BBC Radio 2
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Nov 14 - 11:17 AM

In 1961 a lot of those people who survived were still alive. What did they say about Clark's book ?