radio 4 how folk songs should be sung

Subject: RE: radio 4 how folk songs should be sung
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Nov 14 - 06:59 AM

I realise that you probably know this, Brian, but what the obsessive nature of Mudcat with Ewan and The Critics reflects is the average age of the British contributors here.
not necessarily, it might reflect that he has been an important song writer who has produced a significant quantity of excellent songs, Vic can you name a young song writer in the uk folk revival who has produced the same quantity of modern quality songs.
jez lowe is 60ish.

Subject: RE: radio 4 how folk songs should be sung
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Nov 14 - 07:16 AM

The title, 'how folk songs should be sung' is, at best, superficial and at worst, vindictive - it was not what the Critics Group was about and I would like to think the Martin Carthy had nothing to do with its choice.
The Critics Group was formed when a number of singers approached MacColl and asked him to take singing classes.
He could well have done, but instead, he chose to set up a workshop set up on the self-help principle where a number of performers and enthusiasts could meet regularly, listen to each others singing, make comments on what worked and what didn't and suggest how improvements might be made.
The first thing they did was to immerse themselves of as many types of traditional singing as were available via recordings.
MacColl provided singing and vowel exercises to develop pitch, tone, articulation, breath control.... etc, and relaxation exercised developed by Nelson Illingworth.
He introduced the idea of 'efforts', based on understanding and controlling the voice delivery in terms of weight, direction and speed - he had adapted these from Laban's theory of movement as used by dancers and actors.
That was more or less the technical side of the Group's work.
The second side of singing work was to assist a singer make a song their own using Stanislavski's 'application of the idea of IF, and emotion memory.
Far from advocating that there was a single 'right' way of "how folk songs should be sung" it was an examination of all the different ways a song might be approached and made work be each individual singer.
I have recently been listening to a recording of one of the Group singing 'The Gypsy Laddie' using five different approaches - not one way it "should" be sung, but five ways it could be approached if one way became stale though being over-sung.
It also helped develop ways of handling all the differing types of song in the repertoire, from shanties to lullabys.
Among the first work was listening to singers from all genres and attempting to imitate them; this was to try to understand your own voice, how it was produced and how to control it.
This may well have been where Charles Parker's 'Strawberry Roan' came from - Charlie never sang cowboy songs - they really weren't his 'thing'
There were other aspects to Group work, including examining specific genres of song, song writing, planning feature evenings (including poetry and prose readings) - we even did a bit of acting.
The Group was primarily set up for those who were serious about their singing and wer prepared to put in the work, but most aspects of what was done was adaptable - Pat and I helped run Singers Workshop for 15 years which was set up to assist new and less experienced sings and was run on a far more casual basis - much of what we did was taken from our Critics experiences.
I don't believe what we did was "quaint" - much of it was groundbreaking and has, to my knowledge, never been surpassed.
I know Frankie Armstrong developed what was done in the Group for her voice workshops, and Sandra Kerr used some of it in her Newcastle courses, I understand.
The incentive it gave us to 'lift the corner to see what was underneath' fed into our own work as collectors - it is a part of our lives we still value very much
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: radio 4 how folk songs should be sung
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Nov 14 - 07:16 AM

Vic,
my experience in Ireland is that most of the modern songs that are mistaken for traditional songs are songs written by MacColl his songs appear to have entered the tradition in greater numbers than any other writer, so perhaps he is being discussed not because of contributors ages but because of his importance as a song writer of traditional style songs.

Subject: RE: radio 4 how folk songs should be sung
From: Vic Smith
Date: 27 Nov 14 - 07:46 AM

Jim Carroll -
"Vic can you name a young song writer in the uk folk revival who has produced the same quantity of modern quality songs?"

No, because, in my opinion, he is the finest songwriter to come out of the folk scene....actually, I'd go further than that; I'd say that he was the finest songwriter of songs in vernacular English since Robert Burns, but he would not say that he wrote folk songs though I can remember him talking at a dinner party about how it had been reported to him that his The Shoals of Herring had been sung as The Shores of Erin.. When I asked him if he thought that the change was conscious or was something like the 'folk process', his reply was something like, "I don't know. I am not in a position to tell."

However, it is not the quality of his songwriting is not under question. The point that he was divisive cannot be disputed with his attitude towards how folk songs should be sung being one of his qualities that caused this divisiveness.

Subject: RE: radio 4 how folk songs should be sung
From: Vic Smith
Date: 27 Nov 14 - 07:51 AM

Sorry! I quoted Jim Carroll with the quote above and that is incorrect.

Subject: RE: radio 4 how folk songs should be sung
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Nov 14 - 07:58 AM

"how folk songs should be sung "
Hope we cross-posted on this one Vic
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: radio 4 how folk songs should be sung
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Nov 14 - 08:15 AM

Let's see, in terms of volume of work, Katherine Tickell's not been a slouch, and Bella Hardy's on her way.
Of course, neither are a Mozart, but then again, neither was Ewan McColl! And Wolfgang burned out early

Subject: RE: radio 4 how folk songs should be sung
From: Musket
Date: 27 Nov 14 - 08:27 AM

If you are a young person, there's every chance that young folk singers have written better songs from your perspective. Quality is subjective.

When MacColl was the age of some young singers, he wasn't so prolific. That doesn't mean he wasn't special. The old sod was, and recognising that doesn't deflect at all from whether you like, prefer or enjoy something far different.

I personally have huge affection for his imagery, simple words conveying meaning and choice of tunes. My youngest feels similar about Billy Bragg whilst my wife feels all music had been written by the time of Elgar and folk musicians use music rather than perform it.

All bloody relative. Putting anybody on your pedestal is honourable. Assuming your pedestal is gold plated and the next person's made of plastic isn't getting anybody anywhere. Folk music, like any entertainment evolves. Whilst crusty old buggers are bowing at the altar of yesterday's hero's, millions of people worldwide are clicking on "folk" in iTunes and downloading the latest Ed Sheeran album.

Subject: RE: radio 4 how folk songs should be sung
From: Brian Peters
Date: 27 Nov 14 - 08:53 AM

Re 'quaint':

What I actually said was that "some of those ideas seem quaint now". That is not to deny that some (or many) of the ideas were valuable at the time, and may indeed be useful now.

But to me it seems quaint to look back on a time when a single pedagogue could hold a group of acolytes in such thrall. Even in my early days on the Manchester folk scene (1980s) there were people around who still believed in the gospel of Ewan as if there were no other valid approach. Back in the heyday of the Critics Group it was probably true that MacColl knew much more about the subject than anyone else (excepting Bert, of course), and newcomers must have marvelled at his depth of knowledge and been delighted to have him share it. These days we have democratization of information, and anyone who is so inspired can get hold fairly easily of any number of the source recordings and documents that in those days were available only to the most dedicated researchers. Young singers have it all at their fingertips, and they are not deferential to the older generation, though they may respect us.

Vic was kind enough to give a plug to a recent venture of mine involving young performers (incidentally, Vic, my own sons are 21 and 27, so less of the 'old enough to be their grandfather', thank you!). If I were to say to any of those singers, "Sorry, but you're doing it all wrong, this is how you should do it", they would laugh in my face. They respect the way I do it, but are quite capable of developing their own style and approach. I might well say to them (as people like Roy Harris and Martin Carthy once said to me, to their eternal credit): "Ah, but have you heard Phil Tanner's version of that one?", but that's as far as I'd want to go in prescribing anything - and they've most likely heard Phil Tanner already anyway. Put me in front of a song workshop and I'll try to pass on what I know - but not, I hope dictate.

I also find the idea of applying Stanislavski to folk song performance rather quaint (and I wonder how much longer Stanislavski will hold sway in the acting profession, after seeing the recent documentary on Mike Leigh). No-one believes more strongly than I do in the value of looking hard at a ballad and trying to get to the beating heart of it, but this 'sing as an actor' business is over-rated IMO. I don't buy the idea that attempting to perform say 'Little Musgrave' from the point of view of the three main protagonists is going to affect materially the perception of the story by the listener, and the example presented in the programme didn't convince me. I'm interested to hear about Jim's recording of alternative approaches to 'The Gypsy Laddie', but do ballad singers really get bored by singing the same ballad over and over and feeling the same emotions? I know I don't. Would it be useful to sing 'Long Lankin' from the point of view of the false nurse? I don't think so.

My wife, who's just heard the programme, remarked that the 'method acting' approach came across as a device presented by someone with a background in theatre, to impress by mystification. It might have had some value as a means of getting singers to really think about their songs but, again, I can't see younger singers wanting to go through all that. And they, after all, are the future of this kind of music.

Subject: RE: radio 4 how folk songs should be sung
From: Jack Campin
Date: 27 Nov 14 - 08:57 AM

what we really needed was to get back to the first word. This is why Jeremy Barlowe's work on the English Dancing Master in the late 1970s was so important, work which hasn't really been taken on yet, and the follow-up work done by Joel Cohen in Boston in the States.

I was listening to The Broadside Band's Playford cassette a couple of days ago, and it was beginning to seem rather old-fashioned. The arrangements are more elaborate than they need to be, with heavily filled-out harmonizations that don't add to the danceability of the tunes, and lots of recorder twiddles that would no doubt sound terrific in live concert performance but ditto, don't tell people's feet very much. (I speak as a recorder player with a great fondness for flashy twiddles myself).

But basically you're right - tidying up Barlow's approach to remove these traces of self-indulgence would have done better by these tunes that what actually happened. The main group playing them where I am is led by a shatteringly loud accordion player who turns them all into monster-ceilidh-band music. You get only slightly less gross treatments all over the UK. Playford's soundworld has been completely lost.

Joel Cohen's early Sephardic music recordings sound rather twee now, but he's gone on to deeper investigations of how that music ought to sound. I doubt if he'd now see the Voice of the Turtle stuff as much moire than a heads-up to tell people that music was worth a hearing.

Subject: RE: radio 4 how folk songs should be sung
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Nov 14 - 08:59 AM

There must have been good reasons why MacColl developed during his lifetime into a very good song writer, other than just talent, talent is never enough without training and practice and environment, in MacColls case PRESUMABLY theatre environment, as I understand it
Did MacColls study of speech rythyms, for the radio ballads contribute to Shoals of Herring and other songs?.

Subject: RE: radio 4 how folk songs should be sung
From: Brian Peters
Date: 27 Nov 14 - 09:23 AM

Forgot to add: when I was talking about "people getting hot under the collar", I was referring to those who disapprove of analysing folk song in principle, one or two of whom seemed oddly irritated by the fact that someone had advocated that kind of analysis fifty years ago.

One other thing: hearing again that bizarre criticism by E MacC of the poor sod who'd tried to write a song from the point of view of a Vietnamese, I wondered how that approach could be 'dishonest' and 'a hoax', whereas writing a song from the point of view of a Yarmouth fisherman is not. When a singer begins "Oh my name it is Jack Hall...", are we entitled to be offended because he or she is not, in fact, Jack Hall?

Subject: RE: radio 4 how folk songs should be sung
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Nov 14 - 09:29 AM

As a ticket and CD buying consumer (I only sing on the chorus) the bit about Stanislavski opened up for me a view of 'make the song your own' that was less self-centered than I how it had always seemed to me.

Had I miss-understood or do many who give that advise have a self-centred approach ?

But McColl's singing always struck me as someone acting, which the even people who credit his influence rarely do.

Subject: RE: radio 4 how folk songs should be sung
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Nov 14 - 09:48 AM

"whereas writing a song from the point of view of a Yarmouth fisherman is not"
Shoals of Herring was based, as many of them were, on actuality recorded directly from Sam Larner, Ronnie Balls, et al - he uses much of Sam's actual wording in the song directly from the actuality recordings.
Likewise Freeborn Man and the Travellers songs
Shellback was based on interviews they did with Ben Bright, the sea terminology was Bright's.
Tenant Farmer came from interviews with Border farmers on the subject that the song dealt with.
I doubt if the same can be said of the Vietnamese song.
All of MacColl's Vietnam songs came from the point of view of the sympathetic observer (from afar) - none, to me recollection, were written from the 'first person' position - I don't believe there were even first-hand accounts of the Vietnam to draw from to make songs.
"But to me it seems quaint to look back on a time when a single pedagogue could hold a group of acolytes in such thrall"
Is it that old fashioned?
I still get buzz from listening to actors discussing their roles - I'm totally hooked on the Sky Arts' Shakespeare programmes and Al Pacino's 'Looking for Richard' made a major contribution to my understanding of Richard III.
I never looked on MacColl as a pedagogue (schoolteacher) but as an extremely articulate artist who had thought a great deal about his art - for me, that will never be out-of-date.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: radio 4 how folk songs should be sung
From: Brian Peters
Date: 27 Nov 14 - 09:58 AM

Re-reading Jim Carroll's interesting account posted at 07.16 about the varied approaches taken by CG, reminded me that Jim once copied and sent me several recordings of song workshops from the period, which contained much that was of value. Thanks, Jim.

No doubt it's true that the programme presented an incomplete picture. There did seem to be an agenda to tell a story about the rise and fall of a dictator, rather than really describe what was going on - despite Martin C being at pains to stress the benefits that were gained. And there were clearly great benefits: hearing Frankie Armstrong's 'Tam Lin' always made me want some of whatever she was on!

Subject: RE: radio 4 how folk songs should be sung
From: Brian Peters
Date: 27 Nov 14 - 10:26 AM

"Shoals of Herring was based, as many of them were, on actuality recorded directly from Sam Larner"

Yes, I know that, Jim, but the actual quote on the programme seemed to be suggesting that any first person narrative is by its very nature bogus. If you accept EMC's statement that to write in the first person is to 'pretend that you were there' you'd have to argue that interviews with a fisherman are a far cry from a lifetime of first-hand experience on a North Sea drifter. Perhaps he just didn't express himself very clearly. At any rate, I think that describing a piece of work produced to EMC's order by a member of the group as 'a bore', 'dishonest' and 'a hoax' oversteps the line of frankness into rudeness and arguably bullying. For all the benefits that some of those singers undoubtedly received, that remark alone made me glad not to have been in that place at that time.

Subject: RE: radio 4 how folk songs should be sung
From: GUEST,Jane of 'ull
Date: 27 Nov 14 - 10:49 AM

Ewan MacColl did come across as curmudgeonly in this programme and Peggy Seeger has said a few times that she feels slightly embarrassed now about this period with the Critics.. but then it was a long time ago, and many of us have been there! Steadfast youth and all that!

Subject: RE: radio 4 how folk songs should be sung
From: johncharles
Date: 27 Nov 14 - 10:56 AM

I am with Brian Peters and his wife on this one. Just sing the song to the best of your ability with thought given to the nature of the song.
Ewan McColl was a prolific song writer, however, I think in terms of the songs continuing to be sung in clubs only a handful seem to have stood the test of time.
john

Subject: RE: radio 4 how folk songs should be sung
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Nov 14 - 11:31 AM

"Ewan MacColl did come across as curmudgeonly in this programme and Peggy Seeger has said a few times that she feels slightly embarrassed now about this period with the Critics"
The programme in no way represented what happened at The Critics meetings - I'm revisiting them at the moment and half a century after they happened they still give an unbelievable lift - a little disturbing to find that lachriomosity is one of the aspects of ageing!!.
I have to say they some selections of the programmes we have passed on to the producer have had a powerful effect on her.
Ewan largely avoided commenting on the performances of singers outside our work - I think I've come across less than half-a-dozen after listening to over 200 tapes.
Analysis (criticism) of singing was confined to member of the Group, and we could go home and take our ball with us any time wewished.
I spent 2 days with Peggy last week being recorded discussing Ewan and the Group with her - this is about as far as it gets from how she feels about them
Ewan listed the work he did with the Critics Group as one of his greatest achievements, which is pretty much how Peggy still feels about it.
"that any first person narrative is by its very nature bogus"
I don't know if this was the case - he was often critical of pastiche representations of people and periods far removed from the experiences of song-makers (and obviously misunderstood)
"Just sing the song to the best of your ability with thought given to the nature of the song"
There's no reason, as far as I can see, that someone shouldn't wish to continue adding to your skills constantly - seems a little complacent not to.
I cut down my singing when we started collecting and eventually stopped altogether.
Over the last few years I started again and realised to my horror that my range had reduced to the extent that I could no longer handle some of my songs (particularly Flying Cloud and Sheffield Apprentice) - a few sessions at the exercises and I got them back.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: radio 4 how folk songs should be sung
From: Brian Peters
Date: 27 Nov 14 - 11:50 AM

OK, Jim, you were there, I was not. The BBC programme seems to have had the negative effect on several others that it had on me, but if it was a misrepresentation then I hope there will be a way of hearing your programmes for Irish radio, to redress the balance.

Subject: RE: radio 4 how folk songs should be sung
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Nov 14 - 12:03 PM

I can find songs that are not dishonest that are written from the point of view of someone participating in the event examples
chemical workers song [ron angel] whitby whaler richard grainger. otago by greame miles.
"Yes, I know that, Jim, but the actual quote on the programme seemed to be suggesting that any first person narrative is by its very nature bogus. If you accept EMC's statement that to write in the first person is to 'pretend that you were there' you'd have to argue that interviews with a fisherman are a far cry from a lifetime of first-hand experience on a North Sea drifter. Perhaps he just didn't express himself very clearly. At any rate, I think that describing a piece of work produced to EMC's order by a member of the group as 'a bore', 'dishonest' and 'a hoax' oversteps the line of frankness into rudeness and arguably bullying. For all the benefits that some of those singers undoubtedly received, that remark alone made me glad not to have been in that place at that time."
I agree with Brian, furthermore having encountred Ewan and his gauche behaviour in 1969, I decided to give the singers club a wide berth.
however I agree that he contributed a lot to the uk folk revival and both he and Peggy gave up hours to help others, and were most helpful to anyone who wished to visit their house and get info on songs, both were/are good performers and song writers.

Subject: RE: radio 4 how folk songs should be sung
From: Brian Peters
Date: 27 Nov 14 - 12:07 PM

Yes, Dick, I thought of the Chemical Workers' Song too. Jim did have a point, though, about 'Shoals of Herring' being based on good research - the reason Keith Marsden's 'Prospect Providence' sounds authentic is because it's based on one person's first-hand experience, related in detail to the songwriter. Reminds me of MacColl's work, in fact.

Subject: RE: radio 4 how folk songs should be sung
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Nov 14 - 12:23 PM

"I hope there will be a way of hearing your programmes for Irish radio, to redress the balance."
I hope so too - but I hope for a bit more than that.
Singing in Ireland has some way to go before it catches up with the popularity of the instrumental music.
Coming back from Oxford, Paula (the producer) and I got into a somewhat intense discussion on how things might be improved (much to the consternation of the other passengers) - Paula is a singer, deeply involved in broadcasting music and song
Some interesting things are taking place - the Goilín Club and the Inishowen people have put up their considerable collections on line, our Clare collection goes up shortly.
On top of this, The National Library is promoting Child Ballads via a series of public performances.
To date, teaching seems largely limited to passing out texts and getting pupils to read from them, with a few singers generous enough to dedicate time to holding classes.
I've always been convinced that the self-help system is one well worth re-trying - who knows
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: radio 4 how folk songs should be sung
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Nov 14 - 12:33 PM

Sorry
Meant to add that I think Lyric FM is available on line and we'll be happy to pass on the result of our work to anybody interested
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: radio 4 how folk songs should be sung
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Nov 14 - 12:36 PM

I've always been convinced that the self-help system is one well worth re-trying - who knows"
yes, however with skype and you tube, much can be done on a one to one basis, with skype the people can see each other too. this would have more privacy than the critics group type set up.i think most people can take criticism if it is done privately.

Subject: RE: radio 4 how folk songs should be sung
From: Vic Smith
Date: 27 Nov 14 - 12:48 PM

Brian Peters -
"the reason Keith Marsden's 'Prospect Providence' sounds authentic is because it's based on one person's first-hand experience."

I would have loved to have helped Keith Marsden do the detailed research needed for his famed pub-crawl song Doin' The Manch but then I realised that my capacity for alcohol meant that I was not up to the job.

Subject: RE: radio 4 how folk songs should be sung
From: Brian Peters
Date: 27 Nov 14 - 12:58 PM

(Y) Actually, you might manage it these days, Vic, I bet most of those pubs have closed. The Hillgate crawl in Stockport isn't the challenge than it used to be.

Subject: RE: radio 4 how folk songs should be sung
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Nov 14 - 01:09 PM

One day there will be no pubs and no folk clubs, if young people care they need to start running clubs, they need to start looking at the early days of the uk folk revival where clubs booked each others residents. they need to start their own clubs wht will young performers do when there are no old people to run folk clubs?
in my opinion present day folk clubs, should give up trying to entice anyone under 30 and concentrate on getting 40 year olds in.
I cast my mind back to when i was young i went to clubs for the music but to meet other young people.
the next generation [ in my opinion] down from 50 plus are more likely to be more accepting of wrinklies than under twenties or under twenty fives

Subject: RE: radio 4 how folk songs should be sung
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 27 Nov 14 - 02:29 PM

Jim, is there any reason why you're not going into the theatre side? I don't want to talk about what I saw from a degree of remove, but there are things which need to be added here you're not adding.

Subject: RE: radio 4 how folk songs should be sung
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Nov 14 - 03:04 PM

I think Paula will touch on Theatre, but even with 2 hours at our disposal, we are going to have to cut a great deal out.
We have very little by way of live recordings of people talking about his theatre work, we recorded Ewan and Gerry Raffles talking about their work in Theatre Workshop and John Arden made a contribution (all at Ewan's 70th symposium), but I have yet to check the for quality - we'll see.
On the subject - I'm looking for a couple of references to Ewan if anybody has any trace of them
Shaw once described him as "the most promising talnt on the British stage today. apart from myself" - wonder if anybody knows where and when?
Also, MacColl's name appears in Sean O'Casey's Collected Letters - Pat wrote the quote down, but we have no reference to it's source.
Thanks
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: radio 4 how folk songs should be sung
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Nov 14 - 04:27 PM

Set in to song Peter Cox, PAGE 175, states, his songs should follow the same discipline as traditional song, no literary language, few adjectives, simple expressions that ordinary people used on a day to day basis, there is a suggestion by Cox that he was working to a formula.
elsewhere in the book the Radio Ballads are discussed and it is suggested that one of his weaknesses which could occasionally date a song was his use of slang, at another page it states that he had a favourite mode for tunes which was the dorian mode[ flat 3 flat 7].

Subject: RE: radio 4 how folk songs should be sung
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Nov 14 - 04:57 PM

So I should save you? I'll background, that won't use your ammo.

Ewan was part of a movement predating the goggle box: amateur theatricals got quite useful in the 1930s, in my in-laws territory the Chapels created Burton and Hopkins and it has kept going. In Brum it was the Rep, and Ewan part of the Manchester scene. He was right on the edge, and blocked by the authorities as a result - until their cred got shot after WWII, which is a debate still not concluded as these pages show.

You may chose to correct me, Jim, but for me, the pathfinder in the vernacular ballad form which led to the Radio Ballads was Charles Chilton. Ewan had also worked in radio production in the 1930s, and Charles Parker was a strong guide to him. Although we know him as a folkie, he was also extremely well-connected as one of the angriest of the Angry Young Men: for example, his work with Dominic Behan was exactly alongside Joan's with B.

His second wife, Jean Newlove (Kirsty's mum), was Rudolf Laban's first assistant when he came to the UK, and thereby the leading Laban proponent. We should ask GSS for details, as his avatar is one of Ewan's plays from this period.

To think of Method Acting in the extreme framework Newman and Hoffman took it to in the States was not true of the UK acting scene at that time: it was far more intellectual here, conceptualising rather than experiencing. We were far more likely to have to channel the experience of a telephone, as the medium through which a communication happens, than go out and murder a patrician household so we'd know where Long Lankin was coming from!

At the same time, with a few exceptions, one of the problems with the 1960s folk scene was that most of the audience were, frankly, twee. They'd been brought up on the National Songbook and were falling between every stool imaginable, in not following the early steps of hard rock nor yet sticking with classical music. I at least wrote my name in both! What was needed was something which could speak for itself, in neither the Classical mould of the Early Music movement (you discussed Andreas Scholl here recently) nor yet fabulist, in the style which would head towards Marillion. And that was the point of the Critics Group, to find a staging method which would be true to the heritage yet not be banale.

And how they did that, Jim, over to you. Part of what you did led to something superb, Natural Voice, and for that this movement will go down in history.

Subject: RE: radio 4 how folk songs should be sung
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Nov 14 - 04:00 AM

Hi Guest
As far as I know, The Radio Ballads were unique in the sense that it was the first time that the working man's voice was used to any great length to depict working life and conditions.
Both Ewan and Charles described how the original aim of the BBC was to collect actuality in order to turn it into a script to be read by actors - Ewan became convinced that the recorded speech was powerful enough to stand on its own, without needing to be 'performed' by actors
Charles took up the cause of "the working voice" and went on to produce a number of important programmes for Midlands Radio.
What you say about Jean Newlove is, I believe correct - it was through her work with Theatre Workshop that she and Ewan got together.
I only got to meet her and Kirsty once, when we were recording choruses for Ewan's South African piece, White Wind - nice people.
I wss interested in your comparison between Stanislavski and Lee Strasberg's adaptation of The Method - don't know a great deal about it, but I was working at Conway Hall in central London (as an electrician) at the time the English Branch of the Stradberg Group had been abandoned by Stradberg's widow and left to their own devices - not a happy time for them, I don't know if they survived.
My memory of the 60s, in the North of England, was of a large working class following for folk song - I was working at the docks and was persuaded to go to my first folk club in Liverpoolby a fruit market porter - the audience was overwhelmingly made up of people like us, though I think the performers (The Spinners and Jackie McDonald) were teachers.
Most of us were evacuees from The Cavern, a wobnderful Jazz club which was being gradually taken over by 'The Mersey Beat'
Thanks for your input
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: radio 4 how folk songs should be sung
From: GUEST,Jon Dudley
Date: 28 Nov 14 - 11:59 AM

Far be it from me to get embroiled in this interesting thread, especially with such luminaries as Jim and Brian and 'Guest'. I would ever-so-slightly, and very gently point out that 'The Life of James Copper' broadcast on the Home Service in September 1951 might have pre-dated The Radio Ballads. This was indeed an example of a 'working man's voice depicting working life and conditions' to a tee! What may now be termed a 'docudrama ' (hideous term but reasonably accurate!) this programme was a dramatised version of Jim's life on the farm much of it voiced by him as a verbatim account of his life and times. Was that a similar format for 'The radio Ballads'?

Indeed it was Jim Copper's letter to the BBC remarking on a classical singer performing folk songs on Country Magazine that brought the family to the attention of Frank Collinson who came scurrying down to Rottingdean almost immediately. This led to Jim and Bob and other working people singing songs on that programme. Robert Irwin was the resident classical singer by the way with whom the two got on famously.

Foresightedly (if that's the right expression) Jim put a good proportion of his fee for the programme towards have it 'dubbed' off air at a small specialist studio in Oxford Street onto acetate discs. We have those precious items which he insisted were for his two grandchildren, that they might know something of his working life. He was not to know that his son Bob would become his champion and chronicler in years to come. Sadly, the BBC (considering the great expense of the production) did not keep a copy of this broadcast...fortunately we have it!

Subject: RE: radio 4 how folk songs should be sung
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Nov 14 - 12:15 PM

It sounds very interesting, Jon.

Subject: RE: radio 4 how folk songs should be sung
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 28 Nov 14 - 12:19 PM

Jon. Fasinating stuff. That would indeed precurse the radio ballads, and by all of seven years.

Would it be possible for you, or somebody, to put it onto the Internet? This sounds like an extraordinary document, and it will be well out of copyright by now.

Subject: RE: radio 4 how folk songs should be sung
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Nov 14 - 01:19 PM

"Not to mention the faux Scottish accent, form a Salford lad.
Maccoll grew up in a Scots household, learned his songs from Scots lodgers and neighbors and his Scots parents.


I once went with a colleague to do a job. On the way back he said we were passing near his mother's house, and would I mind if we called in. Of course I wouldn't, and his hospitable Scottish mother regaled us with tea and cakes, and much family gossip. To my surprise, my colleague conversed with her throughout in a strong Scottish accent like hers. When we left, I asked my colleague if he always spoke like that at home. He didn't know what I meant. He did not realise that he changed from a broad local, English, accent when in a family situation. I doubt if this is uncommon.

Subject: RE: radio 4 how folk songs should be sung
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Nov 14 - 03:06 PM

"That would indeed precurse the radio ballads, and by all of seven years."
Fascinating, yes, but not the precursor of the Radio Ballads - I would love to hear it.
Country life programmes involving country people were not uncommon producers such as Olive Shaply and Denis Mitchell did a number of them in the 1940s, the first of these was probably George Bramwell Evens (Romany)
I seem to remember that Winford Vaughan Thomas did one in the 1940s on Phil Tanner entitled 'The Gower Nightingale' and Robin Flower made one in Ireland on The Blaskets which included storyteller, Peig Sayers.
There are accounts of more in back copies of 'The Countryman Magazine' (I might be mistaken, but I think the Copper Family appeared in that publication)
The uniqueness of the Radio Ballads was that they dealt with entire social groups, and communities based entirely on the words of working people without the intervention of a commentator - a seamless commentary with music.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: radio 4 how folk songs should be sung
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 28 Nov 14 - 03:19 PM

Whoops, 27 Nov 14 - 04:57 PM was me - I was so busy making sure my comments were objective and fair I forgot to sign it! Although I'd spent a good few hours in the VWML beforehand, I only really came across into real folk at Loughborough in the 1970s, taking over Mike Smith's job as Program Controller of the Uni Radio Station so he could help Dave Kettlewell on All The Tunes.

My time on the edge of the theatre was from 69-74, although some chums had been involved earlier - Bob Yetzes (the much bullied Fisher in If, filmed in 1967) and Jeff Sirr (Jai in Tarzan c1966) were mates and we were to some extent educated in the heritage we were going to carry, senior pupils passing the ball down to junior, and it was clear things were expected from us - people like Anne Skelton would do gigs just for fun, so finding myself SMing Queen as a guest band at L'boro a couple of years later was just par for the course (the weekend before the Hammersmith Odeon recording, actually the weekend Rhapsody made #1) - this was the time we were pushing Kraftwerk and Mike Oldfield to Radio 1. ELO, Mud, yep, did them too - not the Stones though. As I've explained elsewhere, Alleyns was the birthplace of the NYT movement - we also count the likes of Leslie Howard, Frank Thornton, David Hemmings, Julian Glover, Simon Ward, Jude Law and Sam West in the number. I say on the edge of the Theatre with a degree of tongue in cheek - where the demarkation in work and thinking on a School Production and ideas going forwards to the NYT and beyond lay is anybody's guess. Jude Law is typical: his first NYT stage credits are from age 14, the same age I was when finding those OWALW uniforms. Oh the innocence of youth...

One other angle I'm trying to think back to - and it is fifty years - is that as far as I can recall, the Coppers were about the last of a wider movement in Rottingdean. I know that one name from my not then too distant past was a maypole expert from the area, Freddie Hambleton, who had also broadcast summat. For the real geeks, he's worked in the LBSCR Eastleigh works and did the paintwork on the renovated Terrier loco Bluebell from memory.

Guest 28 Nov 14 - 01:19 PM is not me.

Subject: RE: radio 4 how folk songs should be sung
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Nov 14 - 05:08 PM

The uniqueness of the Radio Ballads was that they dealt with entire social groups, and communities based entirely on the words of working people without the intervention of a commentator - a seamless commentary with music."
apparantly not according to Peter Cox[set into song, for example page 197] "on the edge" radio ballad, quote, overall its a frustrating piece,much less than the sum of some fascinating parts its design flaw, Ewans intrusive and inappropriate voice" not my words but an extract from set into song.

Subject: RE: radio 4 how folk songs should be sung
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 28 Nov 14 - 08:57 PM

So the world's not perfect. To disable the entire thing by focusing on a detail is incoherent, though: one voice is not the message, indeed the weakness of the narration makes the peoples' voices more powerful.

Subject: RE: radio 4 how folk songs should be sung
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Nov 14 - 03:04 AM

"apparantly not according to Peter Cox"
Peter's book is one of the most thoughtful and objective books written about MacColl and his work - taking one line about one Radio Ballad is meaningless
The entire book on all the Radio Ballads is dedicated to pointing out exactly how important and unique they where - which is what I said.
All the Radio Ballads had their weaknesses; according to the team who made the Ballads, the weakest one was 'Song of a Road', I'm not sure why.
One of the problems of 'On The Edge' was that the subject matter being dealt with was in a constant state of change; fashions, taste, language were in a constant state of flux and became quickly dated.
None of this in any way reduces their importance and their role in changing the media's approach to broadcasting the working voice; taking comments out of contexts seems to be a little facile.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: radio 4 how folk songs should be sung
From: Musket
Date: 29 Nov 14 - 03:34 AM

Funnily enough, 'Song of a Road" is possibly my favourite. My adaptation of "Fitter's Song" is one of my more regular songs I sing.

Music is an abstraction and if the content of the song reflected the documentary properly and in context but it wasn't a good song, the song wouldn't have survived outside of the programme. The ones that have are testament to the song, not the strength or weakness of the radio ballad itself.

My brother recalls many years ago when he went to folk clubs for a time, and recently said that "Shoals of Herring" was one of his favourite songs and reminds him of happy days in a club where he was living in the early '70s. From our chat, it was clear he had never heard of the radio ballads and hadn't realised MaColl had written it. Music isn't a large part of his life by any means, but for me this is an example of songs standing on their merit rather than context.

Subject: RE: radio 4 how folk songs should be sung
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 29 Nov 14 - 04:04 AM

One detail from a draft I didn't put forwards but should is Ewan's importance as a visionary in making you folks think, much like we were on the burn on the stage. From our side, it laid the foundations for the UK's lead in breaking the barriers down, producing not only a new generation of musical, but the downright outlandish, The Dog in the Night, Billie Elliott, Splatalot...
It even crosses over - Made in Dagenham The Musical, Urinetown the Musical...I wonder what Ewan would have thought of that?

Subject: RE: radio 4 how folk songs should be sung
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Nov 14 - 04:25 AM

I agree the book is very good, the comment is not meaning less it means that your satatement is not correct
"The uniqueness of the Radio Ballads was that they dealt with entire social groups, and communities based entirely on the words of working people without the intervention of a commentator - a seamless commentary with music."
in my opinion the radio ballads are excellent.

Subject: RE: radio 4 how folk songs should be sung
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Nov 14 - 05:04 AM

It wasn't so much the music that was the problem for the production team, rather, it was the actuality.
What they got from the road workers was excellent, probably among the best from people like Jack Hamilton.
The problem, they felt, was the over-long sequences of technical detail from the experts, which they thought interrupted the flow of the whole thing - they were responding to previous criticisms of there not being enough detail of the trade.
I find your comments fascinating Rahere, though I'm not familiar enough with modern theatre production to add much to what you say.
I know the Theatre work done by The Critics was highly regarded in some circles; I got to meet Sam Wanamaker and Joan Littlewood during the Festival of Fools and Ian Cuthbertson appeared at the Singers Club once in a 'Poetry and Song' evening
Ewan's dream was to involve those members of the the Group in a theatre/music combination team, a failure which came to a somewhat undignified conclusion.
I was always interested in theatre, but not enough to be part of the changes in the Group when Ewan shifted the focus away from song; it's often forgotten that it was the theatrical side of the work that collapsed, not the song.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: radio 4 how folk songs should be sung
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Nov 14 - 05:13 AM

"it means that your satatement is not correct"
It means no such thing - if you re-read the passage you quoted you will notice it refers to a small sequence lasting a few minutes in an hour long Radio Ballad - Cox refers to it as 'the stalking' sequence.
How on earth does one comment by one writer on one sequence of one Radio Ballad contradict what I said.
Shakespeare wrote a few rotten lines, in general, his plays are the finest in English, if not world literature.
Take this further if you wish Dick, for me, it ends here.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: radio 4 how folk songs should be sung
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Nov 14 - 06:20 AM

In the opinion of Peter Cox, the fight game has vocal action that is better shared out than on the unbalanced on the edge, Ewans voice and acting abilty are more impressive here.
the above are the words of Peter Cox, not my words.

Subject: RE: radio 4 how folk songs should be sung
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 29 Nov 14 - 10:25 AM

From: Leadfingers - PM
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 05:26 AM

If Cecil Sharpe collected over a hundred versions of only one song , which version is 'Right' ??
.,,.,
In interests of accuracy --

          Sharp

≈M≈

Sorry if coming over as pedantic, for which I have been denounced more than once before ("MGM your pedantry is legendary" was one compliment I received); but I do think we should pay the man but for whom this thread, indeed this very forum, would not exist, the compliment and respect of getting his name right.

Subject: RE: radio 4 how folk songs should be sung
From: GUEST,John Foxen
Date: 29 Nov 14 - 10:51 AM

On the subject of radio pioneers we should raise a glass to Douglas Geoffrey Bridson who used Ewan MacColl in his radio dramas and mentions him in his book Prospero And Ariel. Bridson was desperate to get "ordinary" people on the air in the Thirties but the BBC would not allow the masses to broadcast unscripted. So Bridson would talk to them and write scripts which the folk could read confidently because it was the way they spoke. A cumbersome and complicated method but it did get the voice of the people past the BBC censors and on the air.
There is a long and winding trail to the radio ballads and Bridson, Chilton and many others played their part in opening up the airwaves.
Now the pendulum has swung the other way and hearing a lot of what goes on radio today, in the words of Jim Copper I feel "prostrate with dismal".