Origins: Fair Margaret & Sweet Willliam- Child 74

Subject: RE: Origins: Fair Margaret & Sweet Willliam- Child 74
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 23 Dec 14 - 11:58 AM

GUEST was me.

Subject: RE: Origins: Fair Margaret & Sweet Willliam- Child 74
From: Richie
Date: 23 Dec 14 - 12:54 PM

I agree Lighter that there needs to be documentation- so when I suggested changing the works "take" and "grove" it was because I already knew that they appeared in other version and that Percy and others had published/printed.

Many broadsides capture a traditional version, at that moment in time. Because they were edited we aren't sure of the degree of authenticity- which of course is the reason Child used "collected" traditional versions over print.

Also the oldest traditional version would be given more authenticity because of the folk process itself.

So we are in a sense trying to discover the ur-ballad, or the original story sung in tradition- and the story had to be created at its inception, even though it may have been improved along the way (Lord Thomas and Fair Annet).

Certainly there's more evidence to be examined than in Child's time. Some new conclusions may be reached,

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Fair Margaret & Sweet Willliam- Child 74
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 23 Dec 14 - 01:04 PM

We GUE$T as much, Jon.

Subject: RE: Origins: Fair Margaret & Sweet Willliam- Child 74
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 23 Dec 14 - 01:57 PM

'Many broadsides capture a traditional version, at that moment in time. Because they were edited we aren't sure of the degree of authenticity-'

Let me just change one word and see what it looks like.

'Many collected/printed versions capture a traditional version, at that moment in time. Because they were edited we aren't sure of the degree of authenticity.' This applies to the vast majority of the items Child published!

Subject: RE: Origins: Fair Margaret & Sweet Willliam- Child 74
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Dec 14 - 02:05 PM

Surely this applies to most published version prior to 1900, which is why I always find criticism of Peter Buchan somewhat ludicrous.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Origins: Fair Margaret & Sweet Willliam- Child 74
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 23 Dec 14 - 03:07 PM

Not quite, Jim.
At least Scott, Motherwell, Jamieson admitted some of their creative additions to the corpus and regretted it. Peter took what they had done to a far greater level and swore blind that every word came from oral tradition. So 'ludicrous' is somewhat over the top as Child would have quite rightly told you.

Subject: RE: Origins: Fair Margaret & Sweet Willliam- Child 74
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 23 Dec 14 - 03:08 PM

And I could add your friend David Fowler to that last statement!

Subject: RE: Origins: Fair Margaret & Sweet Willliam- Child 74
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 23 Dec 14 - 03:11 PM

Jim,
I'm aware we're starting to take over someone else's thread again, so if you want to continue our old sparring I suggest we continue in private or start another thread, as ever.

Subject: RE: Origins: Fair Margaret & Sweet Willliam- Child 74
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 23 Dec 14 - 03:13 PM

Reconstructing something four hundred years old on the basis of oral tradition and careless printings is hit or miss at best.

Sure can be interesting though.

Subject: RE: Origins: Fair Margaret & Sweet Willliam- Child 74
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 23 Dec 14 - 03:27 PM

'Sure can be interesting though.' Can't argue with that, Jon.

Subject: RE: Origins: Fair Margaret & Sweet Willliam- Child 74
From: Richie
Date: 23 Dec 14 - 03:51 PM

Hi,

A bit of thread drift is OK. You can only work with the ballad info that you have!!!

I've just finished putting over 140 version from North America on my site: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/us--canada-74-fair-margaret--sweet-william.aspx

To recap these versions:

I have one traditional version of Mallet's "William and Margaret" which is likely from a print source.

Of the traditional version about 10 versions attribute Margret's death to falling out of her window or jumping from her window. Less than 1/2 have the important opening stanza

Sweet William he rose one morning in May,
Himself he dresses in blue.
His mother asked him about that long, long love
[That] Lies between Lady Margaret and you. [Sweet William- Nora Hicks]

which is found in Child B but not in the broadside.

A more recent adaptation named "Little Margret" first collected by Bascam Lamar Lunsford and published in 1929 has become popular and there are dozens of cover versions and some traditional versions found in the Madison County/ Sodom Laurel area in North Carolina. Sheila Kay Adams; Betty Smith; Obray Ramsey and others (including the Wallin family) have recorded this short version. Another popular rendition is the Carolina Chocolate Drops' version.

Betty Smith has commented (above) that William died from kissing the corps of Margaret, the revenant kiss, as found in other ballads (Child 49).

TY for your help and I've about "taken my fill" with this ballad.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Fair Margaret & Sweet Willliam- Child 74
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 23 Dec 14 - 04:08 PM

It is very possible, indeed probable, that a great many oral versions found in America derive not so much from broadsides but from published collections. You gave me a very good example of a version of 295B which can only be derived from Child's volume itself.

On the other hand much better(dependant on your viewpoint) versions of ballads can be found in America, and some much longer earlier versions. For instance, not a Child Ballad but argued by some should be, the Bramble Briar has American versions much closer to the original than any British ones. All of the British ones are fragmentary by comparison