Folk Singer Name Change

Subject: RE: Folk Singer Name Change
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Feb 15 - 01:05 PM

One thing to chose not to fight for whatever reason you may care to mention. It is a completely different thing to enlist then desert and you must admit that if you are going to desert from the Army in time of war and go on the run a change of name might come in handy as well as adopting a "Scottish" accent and claiming to all and sundry that you are a native of Auchterarder in Perthshire as opposed to Salford Manchester.

Subject: RE: Folk Singer Name Change
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Feb 15 - 01:38 PM

"It is a completely different thing to enlist then desert and you must admit that if you are going to desert from the Army in time of war "
Been there - done that - see the altering position which caused the confusion surrounding the support for World War Two among the left
My father 'listed to fight Fascism in 1938 in Spain - they gave him a secret service record as a "premature Antifacist and had him blacklisted from work - it very much affected our childhood as he had to leave hoe to find work.
The Government of the day appeased Hitler right up to the eve of the war, until they had no alternative but to fight
The left identified the war as being Imperialist until The Soviet Union (the only Workers State) was invaded, then they supported it - the confusion arising from the change of policy led to the Sectertary of the Community Party resigning his position - that's how traumatic it was for the 'believers'.
MacColl did not "adopt" a Scottish accent, his parents both had broad Scots accents (I couldn't understand Betsy easily in 1968) and he grew up in a household of people speaking in a similar manner.
MacColl was found singing old ballads in broad Scots and in Scots Gallic at the beginning of the thirties - SFA to do with the war.
Several of my family grew were born in Liverpool and at a later date, moved to Ireland - they now speak with Irish accents and consider themselves Irish.
His claim to come from Auchterarder (where his mother originated) may well have been a career boost (again SFA to do with the war), but Ken Goldstein, the producer of many of Ewan's early albums, once suggested that is might have been a misunderstanding on his part when he wrote the album notes.
All this is fairly pathetic, don't you think - the man was a great singer and a generous sharer of his knowledge and the products of his researchers (I don't know a single individual on the folk scene to have devoted a fraction of time or energy that MacColl and Seeger did for less experienced singers, if there was anybody, enlighten me).
Both of them deserve recognition for that fact and consideration of their work - not this shit.
You are one of the "name-change knockers" - how come we don't know who you are - modesty or what?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Singer Name Change
From: RTim
Date: 24 Feb 15 - 02:08 PM

Regarding being brought up in a house where the parents speak in a Broad Scots accent - a friend of mine born in Canada has two parents who both continue to speak in their great Scots accents (even thought they now live in Cornwall) - but he sounds totally North American!!

So what does this prove - Salford was different?

Tim Radford

Subject: RE: Folk Singer Name Change
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Feb 15 - 03:02 PM

"So what does this prove"
Doesn't prove a thing - some people pick up their accents at home, others in the street - simple as that.
Making a rule of who does what is either stupid or (as in this case) agenda-driven.
MacColl was reported in D G Bridson's book, 'Propero and Ariel', to have been found singing busking for pennies from a cinema queue in a broad Scots accent and in Scots Gallic in 1931 - before his Theatre Workshop days and before his career i folk song was even on the horizon - and certainly before he deserted from the army.
He was described as singing "Scots songs, Border Ballads, folk songs and Gaelic songs he had learned from his mother".
From conversations I witnessed between Ewan and Betsy, he slipped from ne accent to another naturally and with ease.
I tend to do the same - I left home with a broad Liverpool accent, within a month that had become tinged with a Mancunian one, I never picked up much of a London one in 30 years, but it did become tingeed with Irishisms because of the company I kept, which deepened when we moved here, but nowadays, my partner Pat always knows when I am talking to my sisters on the phone because I revert to my original accent - broad Liverpool - mone of this is self conscious or deliberate and it certainly isn't because I'm on the run from the army!
By the way guest, "It is a completely different thing to enlist then desert" - MacColl didn't "enlist" - he was conscripted in July 1940 and had deserted by October.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Singer Name Change
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Feb 15 - 03:07 PM

just my opinion [???]...

Conscription should be outlawed and classed as an international war crime...

Subject: RE: Folk Singer Name Change
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 24 Feb 15 - 03:46 PM

Surely the idea that he changed his name to hide from the authorities is a bit far fetched. Putting yourself in the limelight either on stage or radio etc is hardly hiding away even if you have changed your name

Subject: RE: Folk Singer Name Change
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 24 Feb 15 - 04:02 PM

I don't know if Helen (Richardson) O'Connell sings, but she plays a Hohner Pokerwork and fronted the Nottingham band called Patti O'Doors and The Sunloungers.

That band split but formed a new band Kelly's Heroes, who are still going. She is not to be confused with Patty O'Doors, the Irish drag queen.

Melanie Harrold is founder of The Singing Body and leader of the Trade Winds choir. As a folk singer, she toured extensively as Joanna Carlin.

In another career, she featured in the Hank Wangford Band as Irma Cetas from Nogales, Mexico, the Vera Lynn of the North Sea Oil Fields.

Subject: RE: Folk Singer Name Change
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Feb 15 - 04:36 PM

"Conscription should be outlawed and classed as an international war crime"
Drink to that any day
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Singer Name Change
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Feb 15 - 02:19 AM

"Surely the idea that he changed his name to hide from the authorities is a bit far fetched. Putting yourself in the limelight either on stage or radio etc is hardly hiding away even if you have changed your name"

Not far fetched Allan at all:

"Very strange that he was not pursued after the war as M.I.5 certainly knew about Miller - probably thought that he was a better "asset" on the loose."

The police have used known felons like this for ages, not so unusual at all that security services have done the same.


Married under his real name before the war the clue as to reason for change of name would be when he started using the name MacColl.

Subject: RE: Folk Singer Name Change
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 25 Feb 15 - 03:04 AM

Name changes for artists of all kinds represents an important part of an artist 'branding' themselves to suit a certain market I would think.

So far as folk singers in particular are concerned, I'd guess professionals may change them in order to sound more 'folky' and working class? More akin to the names of the old singers.

Having a stage name or pen name is all a part of constructing the right persona to match what one creates and sells.

Subject: RE: Folk Singer Name Change
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 25 Feb 15 - 03:05 AM

Thank goodness for Richard Thompson!

Subject: RE: Folk Singer Name Change
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Feb 15 - 03:07 AM

Ho hum - our anonymous guest chooses to remain anonymous while at the same time, berating somebody else for doing he same.
When MacColl was conscripted h caught the attention of the officers by his (at first, somewhat too subtle for them) lampooning of army life, but putting on skits for the soldiers and perfoming songs like Browned Off - he also acquired an MI5 record.
When he left the army, he continued his public political work (hardly going into hiding) - that public statement of his views remained a major factor of the rest of his life - C.N.D., Anti-Apartheid, Anti- Vietnam War, the miners strike.... and affected the personal opportunities that his chosen careers might have otherwise brought.
I find that an admirable decision to make.
This is all spitefully petty stuff.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Singer Name Change
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 25 Feb 15 - 03:08 AM

Apart from class, there's also the idea of racial identity to consider. Zimmerman was one, but there have been a number of Jewish artists who have adopted Irish stage names I believe.

Subject: RE: Folk Singer Name Change
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Feb 15 - 04:17 AM

I have the name of a fairly famous folk artist and therefore feel that I HAVE to change my name should I post on Mudcat or should I wish to inflict myself on an unwitting audience. I'm sure others must do the same. Is there another Martin Carthy out there performing under a pseudonym?

Subject: RE: Folk Singer Name Change
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Feb 15 - 04:34 AM

"I have the name of a fairly famous folk artist "
Now there's a thing - it's ok for you to post incognito (and slag off a fellow artist who's dead dead for thirty years) yet when MacColl does the same he is attributed with all sorts of motives
In twenty odd years I never heard MacColl slag off fellow=-performers the way you clowns do.
For a troll, you're a bit of a pratt!
"Irish stage names "
"Dylan" was a Welsh poet.
Jim Carrll

Subject: RE: Folk Singer Name Change
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 25 Feb 15 - 04:43 AM

On the subject of Prince, a friend of mine, pissed off with those at his local folk club having sly "folk police" digs whenever he sang a contemporary folk song, got up and sang, unaccompanied and with finger firmly in ear, Prince's Purple Rain.

Of course, since then, I introduce him as "the artiste formally known as a crock of shit "

Subject: RE: Folk Singer Name Change
From: GUEST,cs
Date: 25 Feb 15 - 08:26 AM

Zimmerman assumed the surname Dillon (with that spelling) falsely claiming it as his mother's maiden name before the spelling was changed to Dylan. Dillon is an Irish surname.

Subject: RE: Folk Singer Name Change
From: GUEST,Ian Hendrie
Date: 25 Feb 15 - 01:10 PM

For information : I was the Guest with the 'fairly famous folk singer's name' (not Ian Hendrie obviously). Maybe I made an error of judgement (UK politician's speak for 'mistake') by posting anonymously.

I was NOT the Guest who did any 'slagging off' of anybody. Indeed, I find people who misuse message boards and abuse others rather sad and am using message boards where this happens less and less.

Subject: RE: Folk Singer Name Change
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 26 Feb 15 - 12:25 PM

Seemingly Dillon can be of either English or Irish origin. Name was first recorded in England as Dilun in 1138 according to the Surname database.

Subject: RE: Folk Singer Name Change
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Feb 15 - 01:21 PM

"I was NOT the Guest who did any 'slagging off' of anybody"
Apologies - the error was mine
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Singer Name Change
From: Vic Smith
Date: 26 Feb 15 - 02:24 PM

25 Feb 15 - 04:34 AM
For a troll, you're a bit of a pratt!
"Irish stage names "
"Dylan" was a Welsh poet.
Jim Carrll

I hope that this is a typo rather than someone actually changing their name in the middle of a thread!

I think that the problem of changed names really becomes a problem when the name is adopted by more than one person. An example from television comedy:-
* On "Monty Python" there were a number of sketches about Arthur Penis.
* On "Alas Smith and Jones" there was a sketch about Arthur Penis - a different person!

Confusing! Will the real Arthur Penis stand up!

Subject: RE: Folk Singer Name Change
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Feb 15 - 03:10 PM

Was thinking of changing my name to Carrl Dallas!
By th
e way - don't know if I am misremembering it, but I could swear I heard an interview with Bob Dylan where he attributed his pseudonym to Dylan Thomas - he's someone tat has never really interested me, so I could be wrong on this.
Jim Carroll