BS: Jihadi John identified

Subject: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Feb 15 - 05:47 PM

He lived and went to school in London, and graduated from Westminster University.
Now he saws off the heads of aid workers, journalists, and anyone not Sunni Muslim.

Video of his murders inspire young men and women, including school kids, to travel to Syria to help in his work.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Feb 15 - 05:52 PM

So what's your point?

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Feb 15 - 05:55 PM

who is he?

We definitely won't give him a gig, if we know who he is, If he knows how a chainsaw works = it makes him over qualified for a job at B and Q.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: GUEST,John Bulldogger
Date: 26 Feb 15 - 06:00 PM

Blimey, you UKIP & B'n'P supporters are never satisfied ???

You moan when they move over here to live in our country;
and still moan about 'em when they voluntarily eff off back out to their own lands ???


make yer bleedin bone headed xenophobic minds up !!!

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Musket
Date: 26 Feb 15 - 06:20 PM

Not often you know who started a thread before opening it..

So, there is a criminal of awful acts. OK. He used to live in London, yeah, still with you.

So.. What else?

A statement by Keith without foundation that it is his executions that inspire young people to live in a bastardisation of a caliphate.

Any evidence for that mental leap?

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Feb 15 - 06:33 PM

Oh Lord, PLEASE not another bigoted Kieth BS-A-Thon.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: michaelr
Date: 26 Feb 15 - 06:42 PM

So who is he then?

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Ed T
Date: 26 Feb 15 - 07:00 PM

Mohammed Emwazi from middle class London, born in Kuwait.


From BBC 

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Feb 15 - 07:06 PM

well Musket - they ain't induced to go out there by the young methodists. it may be a mental leap for you.

but i reckon its a safe bet the little buggers are up for a bit of beheading.

either way - their parents haven't done a very good job. when i was 14 - i fancied being a mormon. there was sod all going on in our town and the mormons started a youth club, which all my mates had joined.

my mum told them to sod off! and told me to behave meself, which i did.

i grew up straight and clean with ordinary underwear, enjoying, booze, cups of coffee - and i don't go round knocking on peoples doors asking what they think the world is coming to.

okay. leave Keith alone, he's not a historian. poor lamb!

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Feb 15 - 07:10 PM

so remember if M.wassi and the chainsaw gang ask for a floorspot even -just say no. you don't want them inspiring the audience to go chopping folks heads off!

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: GUEST,John Bulldogger
Date: 26 Feb 15 - 07:22 PM

And another thing, while Jihadi John is posing it up for the cameras
gloating about lopping our western heads off...

what's Jihadi Yoko getting up to ????????

John, please don't let her sing on your forthcoming ISIS promo videos.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Feb 15 - 07:31 PM

Just a common criminal like a handful of others, nothing to see here.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Feb 15 - 07:50 PM

Video of his murders inspire young men and women, including school kids, to travel to Syria to help in his work.

So, let's see. You think that those three girls saw him on YouTube cutting someone's head off and it persuaded them to get on a plane to Syria so that they could help him to cut more heads off. Nothing to do with being carefully groomed by fundamentalists, or swayed by an older friend with a strong personality, or the possibility that they felt alienated from their own community as well as British society in general, or bullied because they were taunted for wearing their veils, or because they were offered what seemed a real identity and romantic adventure by evil people at a time in their lives when they felt they didn't have an identity? As I don't know which, if any, of these things "inspired" them to go, might I ask how YOU know what "inspired" them to go, and can we please have your evidence?

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Feb 15 - 08:12 PM

That ain't Jihadi John anyway. Any fool can tell from the picture its Kuwaiti Karl.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Feb 15 - 08:37 PM

either way you keep your kids away from that shit...if you care about your kids.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Feb 15 - 08:44 PM

You may not always know what your kids are being exposed to at school though.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Feb 15 - 08:59 PM

well the thing is - you have to talk to them and find out. it involves switching off the telly and making an effort. you have a duty of care and protection.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Feb 15 - 09:05 PM

Agreed. But things can still slip through with teenagers. I think the families are saying they were blissfully unaware of the malign influences at school.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Feb 15 - 02:23 AM

"Steve Shaw - 26 Feb 15 - 07:50 PM"

You seem to answer your own question regarding possible sources of inspiration for young Muslims from foreign countries to be drawn to IS's "Caliphate":

1: Seeing video clips "on YouTube cutting someone's head off and it persuaded them to get on a plane to Syria so that they could help him to cut more heads off"

2: "being carefully groomed by fundamentalists"
Which if true in this case the "grooming" did not appear to have taken much effort as it went unnoticed by those around these girls .

3: "swayed by an older friend with a strong personality"

4: "they felt alienated from their own community as well as British society in general"
Now that is interesting, define "their own community" for us Shaw and have you any evidence that "they" had been alienated by "British society in general" - after all most Muslims who live in the UK are not.

5: "bullied because they were taunted for wearing their veils"
Any evidence of that being prevalent?

6: "because they were offered what seemed a real identity and romantic adventure by evil people at a time in their lives when they felt they didn't have an identity?"

Of the six possible motivations my guess would be that No: 6 would be the most likely for a teenage girl.

Now what was it that Keith A stated again?

"Video of his murders inspire young men and women, including school kids, to travel to Syria to help in his work."

No mention of three school girls there Shaw, only a vague reference that the purpose of the videos is to inspire recruits of all ages and sexes to "the cause". Even you do not discount No: 1 as a possible source of "inspiration" - if you doubt that then count the instances of failed attempts to behead British soldiers where those charged stated that the murder of Lee Rigby was the source of inspiration.

I would agree completely with the comments made so far on this thread by Big Al:

(a) "they ain't induced to go out there by the young methodists."

(b) "you keep your kids away from that shit...if you care about your kids." - Emphasis on the YOU.

(c) "well the thing is - you have to talk to them and find out. it involves switching off the telly and making an effort. you have a duty of care and protection." - sanest, factually and logically the most commonsense thing I have ever read on this site.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Feb 15 - 02:46 AM

A somewhat sexist view of young girls, Terry.

But I am amused to see this schism on the right.

Anent the IS destruction of antiquities, a close friend of mine, himself a fairly recent convert to Islam, has posted elsewhere: -

"This is indeed moronic and they are scum, though this is the least of their crimes. We have to kill these people and kill everyone who would sympathise with them and continue until their ideas themselves are exterminated."

So let us, please, have no more tarring of all Muslims with the same brush - and wish those now trying to kill or capture Jihadi John the best of luck.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 27 Feb 15 - 03:14 AM

Wot Bridge said

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: GUEST,SICK
Date: 27 Feb 15 - 03:22 AM

It must be the British system of education that produces murderers.

A young member of the house of Windsor takes two tours to Afganistan as an Apache helicopter pilot and compares it to playing video home.

Sick.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Feb 15 - 03:54 AM

Comment 1: "We have to kill these people and kill everyone who would sympathise with them and continue until their ideas themselves are exterminated."

Comment 2: "wish those now trying to kill or capture Jihadi John the best of luck."

Ah Bridge just as well it was your friend (who has just recently converted) and yourself who came out with those statements - Had I said either, the condemnation would have been deafening.

By the way Bridge is this an example of "tarring of all Muslims with the same brush":

"Now that is interesting, define "their own community" for us Shaw and have you any evidence that "they" had been alienated by "British society in general" - after all most Muslims who live in the UK are not."

Just on a point of accuracy related to Prince Harry's tours in Afghanistan GUEST SICK:

1st Tour - Serving as an officer in the Blues and Royals he was deployed as a Forward Air Controller to Helmand Province in Afghanistan.

2nd Tour - Deployed on a four-month combat tour as a co-pilot and gunner for an Apache helicopter - not as a pilot. Prince Harry finally qualified as an Aircraft Commander on the type on the 8th July 2013 after his return from his operational tour in Afghanistan

On both tours the ROE in force meant that he could not act until hostile action had been taken by an enemy that could be clearly identified, he could not act until his intended actions had been approved and sanctioned by his superiors - a bit different from hacking the heads off helpless prisoners in front of a video camera eh? If you are going to make idiotic digs at least start out with the correct information.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Feb 15 - 04:53 AM

So let us, please, have no more tarring of all Muslims with the same brush

No-one on this thread has done that.

The purpose of the videos is to gain support and attract recruits.
It seems to work.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Feb 15 - 05:08 AM

CNN two days ago,

"Experts say ISIS has especially ramped up its efforts to lure young women -- seen as potential brides for its fighters -- into the territory under its brutal control in Syria and Iraq.

But that still leaves the question of why its recruitment drive appears to be proving so successful.

It runs a powerful propaganda machine on social media
"There's no question what we're combating with ISIL's propaganda machine is something we have not seen before," U.S. State Department spokeswoman Jen Psaki told CNN. "It's something we need to do a lot more work on. We are seeing 90,000, I think, tweets a day that we're combating."

The militants have repeatedly promoted videos using high-level production techniques to celebrate their brutality."

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Musket
Date: 27 Feb 15 - 06:26 AM

Ohh look! A Muslim!

Must be a terrorist eh?

zzzzz

Why did you start this thread Acheson? Sick enough the newspapers slavering and licking their chops over the tittilation they reckon their readers get from ranting about beheadings without polluting Mudcat with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Feb 15 - 06:31 AM

Well, Teribus, you've obviously never worked in a secondary school in East London (thirteen years this end...). You'd be amazed at how good teenagers are at concealing what they get up to from the adults around them. As for the taunting of girls wearing veils, where did I say it was "prevalent"? Are you denying that it happens at all, perhaps on the grounds that nice white English Christian kids wouldn't dream of doing such a thing? And if Keith didn't have those three girls in mind, pray tell me what else prompted him to "include schoolkids". Still, old chap, if Steve says summat it automatically has to be wrong in Teribus's circumscribed little Islamophobic world, doesn't it? I look forward to further spluttering amusements from you.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Feb 15 - 06:42 AM

The purpose of the videos is to gain support and attract recruits.
It seems to work.

How do you know that that is THE purpose of the videos? What if I say that I think the videos are used mainly to promote fear in the minds of westerners? Hey, Keith, did you note that I said "I think..."? And, even if you're right, how do you know that "it seems to work"? Have you got any statistics?

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Feb 15 - 07:24 AM

"Still, old chap, if Teribus says summat it automatically has to be wrong in Steve Shaw's circumscribed little "right on", Socialist Worker, left-wing Liberal world, doesn't it?"

Not biting prat, if you want to know precisely what Keith meant then ask him, not me.

It was you that mentioned Muslim female pupils being taunted about wearing veils as being a possible factor - so it is up to you to substantiate it.

If my "world is Islamophobic" then I have a very weird and rather unusual CV to demonstrate it. While you have been "beavering" away in your East London Secondary School during my working career I have lived and worked in the following Islamic countries:

- Malaysia
- Brunei
- Indonesia
- United Arab Emirates
- Iran
- Oman
- Kuwait
- Saudi Arabia

I have done so without the slightest problem - bit hard for someone who is Islamophobic wouldn't you think?

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Feb 15 - 07:36 AM

Then again, maybe the guy in the photo is Fundagelical Fred.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Feb 15 - 07:42 AM

It was you that mentioned Muslim female pupils being taunted about wearing veils as being a possible factor - so it is up to you to substantiate it

Well why don't you "substantiate" your claim that I said it was "prevalent"? Actually, a ten-second Google would "substantiate" it to your heart's content. The truth's out there and it's easy to find. Google "Muslim girls taunted for wearing veil".

As for your vast experience in Muslim countries, do me a bloody favour, will you. You didn't exactly go around with a big badge with "I hate Muslims" on it, did you, and I'll bet you didn't go around telling everyone there that you were glad they'd stayed in their hell-hole instead of coming over here. As for my beavering away, I was a science teacher, thanks. What "beavering" were you up to in your travels? Nah, don't bother telling us.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Feb 15 - 08:23 AM

why do you guys just make crude parodies of each others point of view.

its a matter of concern. we all have a point of view. if we don't show basic courtesy to each other. sensible discussion is impossible.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Feb 15 - 08:25 AM

Steve, it is generally reported that the videos are made to gain support.
I am sure that is the case, but will consider any alternative explanations you can come up with.

Musket, this person is the most notorious mass murderer since the days of the Nazi death camps.
His identity and background are of interest.
You seem to want all discussion suppressed.
Why?

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Feb 15 - 08:30 AM

There are a number of posters on the 'cat who are it seems suspicious that so many of KtheA's and Terry's (and Akenhateon's) posts are critical of Muslims. We think it looks exactly as if they are trying to tar all Muslims with the same brush.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Feb 15 - 08:33 AM

I have never made any post critical of Muslims or Islam.
If that is not true, produce one please Richard.

Steve, NBC 13 hours ago,
"'Jihadi John' Videos Help Drive ISIS Recruitment"

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Feb 15 - 08:35 AM

http://www.nbcnews.com/watch/nbcnews-com/jihadi-john-videos-help-drive-isis-recruitment-405119555811

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Feb 15 - 08:41 AM

"bit hard for someone who is Islamophobic wouldn't you think?"
What a quaint suggestion!!
Seem to remember you once boasting you were once a soldier - doesn't count as "work"
As the old joke says , "join the army, visit new places, meet new people - and kill them!!"
It wouldn't be a problem to your being an Islamophobe anyway - the British Empire existed for centuries on the basis that the world was full of people of no value other than to be exploited - the Empire was founded on the philosophy that counrties like India and Africa were populated by sub-humans very much in need of Christianising and civilising - we even sang hymns about it in school
These criminal fanatics (that's what they are) are no different than Christian Anders Breivik who murdered 77 and injured 314 people in his fight against Islam (except that Anders was more successful in his quest) more .
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Feb 15 - 08:52 AM

Steve, it is generally reported that the videos are made to gain support.

Weasel words. Look it up.

I am sure that is the case, but will consider any alternative explanations you can come up with.

I've given some already. Do keep up. Anyway, if you're so sure, why would I waste more energy on you?

Musket, this person is the most notorious mass murderer since the days of the Nazi death camps.

What, worse than Pol Pot then?

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Musket
Date: 27 Feb 15 - 08:58 AM

"Most notorious mass murderer since the days of the Nazi death camps."

Not quite sure what "notorious" means in this context but as I compared your post to the newspaper fixation, you didn't have to prove my point by such sensationalist claptrap.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Feb 15 - 09:04 AM

"There are a number of posters on the 'cat who are it seems suspicious that so many of KtheA's and Terry's (and Akenhateon's) posts are critical of Muslims. We think it looks exactly as if they are trying to tar all Muslims with the same brush."

By your statement you are implying that Jihadists and Islamists are representative of all Muslims. You are being Islamophobic.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Feb 15 - 09:21 AM

Richard's statement does not mention jihadists or "Islamists". We are suspicious that they are critical of Muslims because that is invariably their focus in any thread that has a bearing on this issue. You will never hear a whisper of criticism from them about illegal land-grabs from the Muslims in Palestine or the slaughter of Muslim women and children in Gaza. You will hear denial of who was truly responsible for the massacres of Muslims in Sabra and Shatila. You might, on a good day, just get a grudging admission that such things were unfortunate. We get statements that Muslims in Britain who (in spite of discrimination), don't cheerfully sign up to everything that's culturally British should go back to their hell-holes. Yeah, we're just a tad suspicious, some of us.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Feb 15 - 11:35 AM

Video of his murders inspire young men and women, including school kids, to travel to Syria to help in his work.

I seem to recall that people from all over the world were "inspired" to travel to Ireland to join the IRA, to Spain to fight in the Spanish Civil War, to France to join la Légion étrangère, & etc. & etc.- all inspired without the aid of videos.

Musket, this person is the most notorious mass murderer since the days of the Nazi death camps.

Moose poop. You're just displaying the unfathomable depths of your ignorance again, Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Feb 15 - 11:47 AM

"Most notorious mass murderer since the days of the Nazi death camps"
Utter nonsense and typical of the inventive minds of extremists like yourself
Nobody knows for certain who he is but it is suggested that he is Mohammed Emwazi, of whom very little is known.
The execution of several hostages has been attributed to him - to compare this to the extermination of six million Jews is grotesque in the extreme - how """""" dare you downgrade the death of so many people by comparing them to a handful of murders?
You really are off your hate-filled head.
The man is a nutter, but his crimes don't come anywhere near the slaughter of young Norwegians at the hands of another religious nutter, this time a Christian.
Sick, sick, sick
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Feb 15 - 12:53 PM

You seem to think it wrong for us to discuss this person who is receiving global media coverage.
You want it suppressed here.
Why?

It is not just a whim of mine that the videos are made to attract support.
I provided a media quote and link to show that it is the mainstream view.

You are desperate to criticise me for something, but for what?
Any errors in my post?
Any exaggeration?
If not, what is your problem?

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Feb 15 - 12:59 PM

"How do you know that that is THE purpose of the videos? What if I say that I think the videos are used mainly to promote fear in the minds of westerners? Hey, Keith, did you note that I said "I think..."? And, even if you're right, how do you know that "it seems to work"? Have you got any statistics?"

But you don't LIKE statistics do you Steve, don't believe them, dismiss them as irrelevant......I "think" that post was extremely hypocritical, if you don't mind me saying so?

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Feb 15 - 01:05 PM

Guardian 22 hours ago, quoting Labour politician,

"I hope that the understandable press interest subsides over the coming days so that the community can get back to normal life."

understandable press interest

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Feb 15 - 01:08 PM

These people are fiends, I agree drone warfare is evil and regime change in a sovereign country wrong, but it takes a certain type of beast to burn a captive alive in cold blood, or cut the heads from the shoulders of human captives.
Like the young white girls of Bradford, human captives appear to be viewed by Islamists as "trash"

Apologists for these atrocities are just as evil and a large percentage of Western based Muslims in a recent poll said that they had some support for the Islamist terrorists

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Feb 15 - 01:14 PM

"but it takes a certain type of beast to burn a captive alive in cold blood, or cut the heads from the shoulders of human captives"

..ermmm so for how long was head chopping off and witch burning favoured forms of public spectacle execution
here in the west in Britain & Europe. ???

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Feb 15 - 01:14 PM

"Like the young white girls of Bradford"
"White girls" - the bastards - how dare they defile our women!!!
"can get back to normal life"
Anty word on the "as bad than the holocaust" yet?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Feb 15 - 01:18 PM

"Any exaggeration?"
How about
"Most notorious mass murderer since the days of the Nazi death camps."
Doesn't even come up to the slaughter three and a half thousand unarmed refugees facilitated by the Israelis
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Feb 15 - 01:31 PM

"Most notorious mass murderer since the days of the Nazi death camps."

Jihadi John is indeed a monster;
but more sensible commentators are comparing him to Lord Haw Haw...

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Musket
Date: 27 Feb 15 - 01:35 PM

Whilst Keith is frantically trying to say this is about one particular criminal, his mate fucks it up completely for him by dragging Bradford grooming into the equation in order to show they are on an anti Muslim kick anyway.

Don't worry Keith. It looks like Akenaton knows what you mean..



You've got to laugh really 😂

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Feb 15 - 01:47 PM

Like the young white girls of Bradford, human captives appear to be viewed by Islamists as "trash"

Have you got evidence that the abusers of these white girls were" Islamists", and can you give me a quote from these chaps that demonstrate that they think the white girls in particular are "trash"? It's quite important that you are able to substantiate this, otherwise this remark of yours is nakedly racist. As for your accusation that I'm hypocritical because I asked Keith (sarcastically, as it happens, but that would go right over your head) for statistics, what's up with you is your gross misuse of statistics. Stats can be very useful, but, in your bigoted hands, they are completely useless.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Feb 15 - 01:51 PM

Oh its not just about one man whichever Musket you are.


Still laughing?

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Feb 15 - 01:53 PM

Apologists for these atrocities are just as evil and a large percentage of Western based Muslims in a recent poll said that they had some support for the Islamist terrorists

Do you know of any apologists, apart from fellow jihadis, for the atrocities? What's a "large percentage"? How many "western-based Muslims" were asked, where do they live, what was the question and who asked it?

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Feb 15 - 02:01 PM

Do you like these "statistics" Steve?

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Feb 15 - 02:02 PM

Statistics ?

If I were to tuck a pencil behind my ear, hold a clipboard cradled in my arm, and stab my finger randomly at a calculator..

Would that lend my opinions more authority ???

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Feb 15 - 02:05 PM

The poll (replete with leading questions, but never mind) concluded that 27% had some sympathy for the motives behind the attacks. You appear to think that that means they "had some support for the Islamic terrorists". Well I have news for you - it doesn't mean that at all. And you wonder why we're extremely sceptical when you start chucking statistics around. It took me one minute to find that out. You need to stop thinking that anyone not on your wavelength is stupid, don't you.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 27 Feb 15 - 02:22 PM

Without doubt, the fantasy world of religion is a major part of the problem.

And, even though the Pope has been critical - the fool - of the Charlie Hebdo mag, if Isis ever attacks the Vatican( and they have made veiled threats )then things could really kick off!

What we don't want is Christian extremists starting a new crusade because that could lead to a major, major world-wide conflict including, I believe, limited use of nuclear weapons.

And, remember the medieval crusade?

It's the Christians who were the really vicious blood thirsty ones in that conflict!

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Feb 15 - 02:29 PM

"motives behind the attacks".

Shouldn't that read..... motives behind the TERRORIST attacks Steve?

and try to keep civil when you're wriggling.... :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Feb 15 - 02:40 PM

"Do you like these "statistics" Steve?"
Charlie Hedbo was a magine that published racidt cartoons, including one depicting a black foreign miister as an ape and another describing the muslim girls kidnapped by Isis as social security spongers.
There is no excuse for the slaughter that took place in their building, but had it not happened, Hedbo would have remained what it was, a magazine that peddled racist propaganda.
It is understandable that Muslims have no fondness for a racist rag - those who worry about white girls being defiled do, of course.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Feb 15 - 02:52 PM

HOW DO YOU LIKE THEM CARTOONS
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Feb 15 - 03:00 PM

Jim, I agree with you 100% regarding the Hedbo mag, I would certainly never buy it....childish humour which may appeal to some here.

However the butchery of the contributors can never be defended under any circumstances and apparently 27% of UK muslims are willing to give some support to the terrorists.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Feb 15 - 03:37 PM

is the idea of the butchery videos to recruit? I'm not sure.

Lets see what it has achieved

1) it has raised awareness of a conflict, not many of us care about.
2) it has angered many people
3) it has fuelled a general disenchantment with religion
4) it has raised awareness that we have an implacable enenemy - rather like Northern Ireland - we know however that we must placate them.
5) these kids running away - they don't get their ideas from nowhere - it tells us that our government has been lying to us. rather like the Bobby Sands election success (which seemed to come out of nowhere for most English people - our media had told us that Sinn Fein were a tiny minority). there is somwhere in our society a degree of support for the head choppers.

if anyone disputes these thoughts. could we discuss sensibly - instead of all this yahoo sucks shit/ it reminds of PMQ under Thatcher.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Feb 15 - 03:59 PM

27% believing that there was some justification is indeed a shocking statistic. The important thing is what should be done about it. Do we, as many on these pages do, use the statistic to paint these Muslims as evil bastards who support terrorist or do we try to educate the next generation to believe differently? The former is the easy path for those who just want to blame someone. The latter is the civilised but difficult way. Surely we have enough brain power in this country to overcome any obstacles. Or have the population become so brainwashed by Murdoch and his cronies that they are now really believing what they are being force fed? It is that side of it that really sickens me.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Feb 15 - 05:27 PM

"motives behind the attacks".

Shouldn't that read..... motives behind the TERRORIST attacks Steve?

and try to keep civil when you're wriggling.... :0)

No, that is not what it should read. You quoted the Telegraph article and what I said is what the Telegraph question asked in the survey. Motives behind the Charlie Hebdo attacks. The word terrorist was not used in the question. If you're not happy with that, take it up with the Telegraph. Personally, I prefer the sword of truth. It appears that you prefer to revise events according to what you've already decided. And you have the neck to accuse me of hypocrisy, you nasty little man.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Feb 15 - 06:03 PM

well yes....but theres always a motive.

and its never the one the perpetrator claims. like the yorkshire ripper said he was cleaning up the streets...

you can't take things at face value. millions of muslims read their scriptures without becoming murderers.

sword of truth..my ass

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Feb 15 - 06:15 PM

"Terrorist" these days is much like "hero" - both inappropriately applied so universally as to become almost meaningless.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Feb 15 - 06:42 PM

Al, sword of truth means that I prefer to discus stuff on the basis of what was actually in that link, not what Akenaton fancies was in that link. I'm sick of trying to drag the likes of Keith, Teribus and Akenaton back to the facts instead of letting them pontificate about their warped versions of the facts. I'm sorry you don't like that. Read your own post again. Perhaps you'll feel a little brighter in the morning.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Feb 15 - 06:49 PM

but theres always a motive

Not always. Sometimes they're just effing crazy.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Feb 15 - 06:59 PM

""Terrorist" these days is much like "hero" - both inappropriately applied so universally as to become almost meaningless."

Not true, it's pretty clear to most except to those who sympathize with them, who is a terrorist or what is a terrorist organization. Idealogues like to apply the term to the subjects they have chosen to villainize but that is usually patently transparent.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Feb 15 - 08:06 PM

Tune into Fux News[sic] guest, with is millions of true believers....

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Feb 15 - 08:34 PM

well of course violence is crazy. didn't we all shake our heads in disbelief when the IRA were killing people.

but theres always these declared totally dishonest motives. you only kill people for one reason - you're acting like a shit.

that's the what happens in wars - we get together and act totally without mercy.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Feb 15 - 09:38 PM

"talk about effing crazy..... "

You said it brother.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Feb 15 - 11:26 PM

videos looked real to me....

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Musket
Date: 28 Feb 15 - 02:41 AM

Only 27% of Muslims think idolatry and images of their spiritual prophet are wrong? I thought that would be nearer 100% myself.

The mental leap by Akenaton that 27% of Muslims in this country support terrorism is proof if ever you need it why newspaper scare stories sell tomorrow's fish and chips wrappers. Any contrived bullshit that supports someone's particular brand of bigotry is soaked up for the feel scared factor.

27% of Muslims living in The UK support terrorism? Load of bollocks. Dangerous bollocks borne of hateful ignorance for that matter. Shame on anyone falling for the leading questions and mental leap, not to mention extrapolating a very small survey number and making conclusions from the answers that do not relate to the questions.

Meanwhile, we live, work and relax as a multicultural society with only the fringes filling The Daily Telegraph and M*il. A leaving party last night. Over 200 people there and as it was for someone working in a hospital, we were a mixed bag of Muslims, Christians, Sikh, Hindu, rational people and all points between. I sat chewing the fat for half an hour with a vicar and an Imam about the attempts by radicalised young people and radical right wing politicians and media encouraging the divisions in society they see.

Mind you, the Imam's family originate from Malaysia and he reckons that away from the nice bits I have visited, you can't get a more racist country.

You see, all is relative and the UK we read about isn't the UK we live in.

Still, I shouldn't get angry when our resident puppy shits on the carpet.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Feb 15 - 03:32 AM

"However the butchery of the contributors can never be defended under any circumstances and apparently"
And nobody is defending it.
The so-called support coming from Muslim communities has far more to do with the history of prejudice against "aliens" and "foreigners" and "send them back where they came from", coming from people like yourself, than it has to do with any religious ideal.
There has been a blanket of silence from you people over the fact that Isis got to where it is because of the lack of support for the opposition to feudal despots, or the inaction over the Syrian massacres, or the two-faced behaviour of the west in pointing a finger at the lack of democracy in Muslim countries, while supporting with silence the selling of arms to to some of the worlds greatest abusers of human rights.
There is now talk that Assad, a man who is responsible for the death of approaching 300,000 Syrians, will be returned to the democratic fold and will never be prosecuted for his war crimes - yet you clowns make this an issue of Muslim culture rather than what it is, an attempt to overthrow a despotic monster.
This is neither a cultural or a religious issue, it is a matter of, on the one hand, impoverished peoples trying to make their world a better place, and on the other, the wealthier nations either sitting on their hands or actively supporting those who would leave these countries in the time warp they occupy in order that they remain good places to do business.
The religious nutters are a side issue and they come from all brands of religion when the circumstances allow it - all religion is dangerous when in the hands of evil people - Christian history has proved that over and over again.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Feb 15 - 03:41 AM

Now, THAT is crazy!

I you cannot see that "multiculturalism" is a ticking bomb, you should not be contributing to a reasoned discussion.

If you want to see whether "multiculturalism" is working or not, go into the ghettos, no some middle class professionals soiree!

There should be one law, and different cultures should be made to abide by it....Integration should be a must do.

You sound like an ideologically driven apologist, Musket 1,2, or3.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Feb 15 - 03:55 AM

Sorry Jim, that was addressed to Musket, 1,2, or 3.

I agree with quite a lot of what you say regarding our armed involvement in Muslim countries, but did you not support that involvement when you thought it was in the interests of "spreading freedom and democracy"?
I was against it from the start yet was roundly condemned by the so called left on this forum.

The de-stabilisation of the Middle East and North Africa has quite obviously given the madmen of ISIS the space, finance and arms to take over huge areas of territory.

It is now a battle of cultures, and the West in my opinion, does not have the stomach, or the resources to wipe up the "shit on the carpet."

Fairy tale ideologies are always found wanting in the real world.

All this of course does not excuse the terrorist atrocities being perpetrated by JJ and his fellow demons, no matter how much support they may have from mainstream Muslims.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Feb 15 - 04:09 AM

lots of ideas all running in different directions.

ake says there is one law for everybody, in our own country, and evertbody should observe the law. certainly when it comes to acts of murder - i think this is a fair point. no one should be allowed to do murder.

however - when it comes to abroad. if the Iraq, Afghanistan conflicts have taught us anything - we can't transplant our own values.
given the chance - they vote for despots. they go along with the whole hand chopping, head chopping rule book. when we let countries like Turkey into the EEC - in all honesty, aren't we kidding ourselves. the eurovision song contest by all means - but these places have sod all in common with us culturally.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Feb 15 - 04:20 AM

Right on the button Al......I take back everything I ever said about you..    :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Feb 15 - 04:43 AM

Multiculturalism is only a problem because of the intolerance of those opposed to it - the latter day Powellites like yourself.
There are a million and a half Muslims living in Britain at the present time and if people like you don't come to terms with it our children will be floating on "rivers of blood" for generations to come.
Unless bigots like you learn to live with multiculturalism or you will be responsible for the deaths of our grandchildren's grandchildren.
Having lived in three multicultural cities for most of my life, I've benefited from and enjoyed the benefits of having neighbours from strange places with different cultures - long may that continue to be the case - viva la difference.
"but did you not support that involvement when you thought it was in the interests of "spreading freedom and democracy"
Do you not see the difference in supporting movements for democtacy and selling arms to despots - obviously not.
The U.N. has a duty to act on war crimes and abuses against humanity - it was blocked by Russia and China's veto (pretty well as the U.S. has blocked action on Israeli war crimes by the use of their veto)
Had oil been in any way an issue in Syria, the West would have had no hesitation in ignoring the veto as it has elsewhere, instead it did nothing about Assad, in fact, it sold him goods that were used to suppress revolt.
Britain took none of the measures that were advised by defectors from the Syrian regime, which could have halted Assad in his tracks.
Now we have what we have - a fanatical religion-driven army and Assad as a friend.
Isis is the Geni the West let out of the lamp.
Assisting the democratisation of these countries is not just an act of charity or humanitarianism which is all our responsibilities, it is in our interests for both peaceful and economic reasons - and it should make us all better human beings
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Feb 15 - 04:47 AM

Only 27% of Muslims think idolatry and images of their spiritual prophet are wrong? I thought that would be nearer 100% myself.

It probably is 100% who think it wrong.
100% of Christians would probably agree with them.
The 27% go further and believe there was some justification for killing those people.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Musket
Date: 28 Feb 15 - 04:56 AM

No they didn't.

27% of Muslims do not think murder is justified. Full stop. No survey has suggested that either.

Akenaton is right. We aren't multicultural because I shun the company of disgusting Bigots and urge others to at every opportunity.

As the late Jake Thackray said, "I can't tolerate intolerance."

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Feb 15 - 05:03 AM

Telegraph piece linked to earlier,

"A poll reveals how a significant minority of Muslims endorse terrorist atrocities against those who mock the Prophet Mohammed.
Some 27 per cent of British Muslims said they have "some sympathy for the motives behind the attacks" on the Paris magazine, according to polling by ComRes for the BBC.
A further 32 per cent said they were not surprised by the attacks. Some 11 per cent said that magazines which publish images of the Prophet Mohammed "deserve to be attacked."
And only 68 per cent of British Muslims said that attacks on the publishers of images of the Prophet are "never" justified, while 24 disagreed."

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Feb 15 - 05:49 AM

"Some 27 per cent of British Muslims said they have "some sympathy for the motives behind the attacks" being the operative phrase
Hedbo is magazine that carries racist cartoons aimed specifically at Muslims and blacks
Most decent human beings (you don't fall into that category) have sympathy with opposition to those scummy cartoons - if the killings have had any influence, it is to respectablise the perpetrators of that racism, that doesn't mean they support the murders
Newspapers and racists emphasise the bits that suit their own agendas
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Feb 15 - 05:58 AM

i'm not getting into a slanging match with you Jim. you have too much talent for abuse. i can't compete. naturally i resent being called a latter day powellite. i worked for years as a teacher in the inner ring of brum. and derby, and nottingham.

humanitarianism isn't enough. on top of that is understanding of the facts.

we used to get a book every year called the ABC of trades - the theme being that we were all the same - little al in lincolnshire, little bombo in his mud hut. your understanding of the world doesn't seem to want to advance. we aren't all the same. it is not within our power to install liberal democratic governments the world over.

tribalism, religious differences, cultural differences....
look at all the fuckers in Russia who voted for Putin,,,,an ex KGB man.

wake up man! we're not all the devil incarnate cos the world bewilders us. if everything was simple, we'd have sorted out the worlds poroblems years ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Feb 15 - 06:18 AM

Ake...you talking bollocks. seeing as we all live together ...multiculturalism isn't an option. its the only option.

if you have a better idea - lets hear it!

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Feb 15 - 06:32 AM

Al "multiculturalism isn't about living together.
It's about living together.....separately.

What we need is integration.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 28 Feb 15 - 06:40 AM

'Hedbo is magazine that carries racist cartoons aimed specifically at Muslims and blacks'

No, it isn't.

Please read the analysis, by Le Monde, of the subject matter of Charlie H's front pages.

Le Monde : Non, « Charlie Hebdo » n'est pas obsédé par l'islam

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Feb 15 - 06:44 AM

Jim, how naïve are you.
We helped these people overthrow the rulers of Libya and Iraq, do you see any democracy or freedom.......or "human rights"

All I see is de-stabilisation, fear and savage murder.

Al is right, not about me :0), but in his take on the middle east.
We were used as pawn to do the bidding of madmen and savages.
Real freedom, democracy and REAL equality must EVOLVE.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Feb 15 - 06:56 AM

Here we go again. Both Keith and Akenaton crawl out of the woodwork In order to misrepresent a survey carried out by a right-wing newspaper. Akenaton rattles on yet again with his "reasoned discussion" mantra whilst lying about the survey. Keith claims that the survey concluded that 27% believed there was some justification for the Charlie Hebdo killings. The only thing to do here is to do what I did ad nauseam with Keith and his Guardian lie: go back to the source. So here it is: the part of the survey in question asked Muslims if they HAD SOME SYMPATHY FOR THE MOTIVES behind the Charlie Hebdo attacks. The word terrorist was not used in the questions in the survey, nor was there any reference to sympathy for killings (you can read, can you, Keith?). 27% of respondents expressed "some sympathy". Extrapolation beyond that cannot be justified. They did NOT say that they had sufficient sympathy to approve of the killings, and I'm damn sure that the vast majority of that 27% would not have said that if asked (but I won't extrapolate - that's just my opinion). Keith has slurred the Muslim communities of this country by telling that lie. Akenaton has slurred the Muslim communities of this country by saying "All this of course does not excuse the terrorist atrocities being perpetrated by JJ and his fellow demons, no matter how much support they may have from mainstream Muslims." If our resident Islamophobes want to prove that loads of British Muslims are up for killing people because of cartoons, let them conduct their own surveys asking their own questions. But, the benighted pair of you, stop lying, and kindly spare the peace-loving Muslims of this country, the overwhelming majority, your vile insults.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Feb 15 - 07:02 AM

What we need is integration.

That's a hoot coming from you. Considering your rampant Islamophobia and homophobia, you are one of the most divisive people it's ever been my misfortune to encounter.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Feb 15 - 07:08 AM

a survey carried out by a right-wing newspaper.

Actually carried out by a reputable polling group for the BBC.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Feb 15 - 07:10 AM

Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 28 Feb 15 - 05:03 AM

Telegraph piece linked to earlier,

"A poll reveals how a significant minority of Muslims endorse terrorist atrocities against those who mock the Prophet Mohammed.
Some 27 per cent of British Muslims said they have "some sympathy for the motives behind the attacks" on the Paris magazine, according to polling by ComRes for the BBC.
A further 32 per cent said they were not surprised by the attacks. Some 11 per cent said that magazines which publish images of the Prophet Mohammed "deserve to be attacked."
And only 68 per cent of British Muslims said that attacks on the publishers of images of the Prophet are "never" justified, while 24 disagreed."

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Feb 15 - 07:25 AM

The poll did not show that any Muslims endorsed terrorist activities because no-one was asked about terrorist activities. Magazines or publishers deserving to be attacked does not mean cartoonists deserving to be shot dead in cold blood. Quite simply, the question was not asked and you are out of order making that interpretation. Ok, I got one fact wrong, the origin of the poll. Happy to acknowledge that. Now are YOU happy to acknowledge that your blind Islamophobia is preventing you from interpreting fairly the results of the poll?

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Feb 15 - 07:30 AM

Apparently the person originally identified as Jihadi John is not him after all. The real Jihadi John has now been uncloaked.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Feb 15 - 08:04 AM

What is all this about there should be one law for all? There is. Simple as that. The law is applied equally to everyone without reference to race, colour or creed. The only exception seems to be rich bankers and tax evaders but that is a different argument.

As to integration this BBC survey seems to indicate that Muslims are happy to integrate but it is the non-Muslim population that are obstructing that. As ably demonstrated by certain parties on here.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Feb 15 - 08:17 AM

If you want to see whether "multiculturalism" is working or not, go into the ghettos, no some middle class professionals soiree!

ake, I live just outside and regularly go into Keighley. I work in Bradford. How about you? Suppose you have first hand experience of these no-go areas that the gutter press spout about. Yes?

As I have said many times before, yes, there are gangs of Asian youths in both areas. Yes, they are, like most large groups, quite intimidating. But I can, hand on heart, say that the largely white gangs in Salford and Manchester are far more frightening. I have never seen the Asian gangs drunk and pissing on the street. I have never seen them blocking a whole pavement so young mothers with prams have to walk in the road. I have never seen them make monkey noises at black people. Much, as a true born Manc., it pains me to say it I would rather spend a night in Bradford than Salford.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Feb 15 - 08:18 AM

"The law is applied equally to everyone without reference to race, colour or creed."

Erm, not quite: Islamic Sharia Law Effectively Enshrined In UK Legal System With New Will Guidance

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Feb 15 - 08:22 AM

Forgot to mention the closing paragraph did we, guest 28 Feb 15 - 08:18 AM?

Currently Sharia Law is not recognised in the British legal system but a number of informal Islamic courts are in operation across the country, generally offering guidance in marriage issues.

Try reading things before using them to to stir up shit.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Feb 15 - 08:45 AM

"Jim, how naïve are you."
I've lived most of my life in cities with different cultures, I've visited a couple of dozen countries, including six which are either Muslim or heavily influenced by Muslimism
Quite honestly, I get a little tired of being told I'm naive by people who have never crossed a cowtrack - go somewhere and do something before you spout your bile against people you know nothing about.
Many of these third world countries are what they are because they were plundered to make Britain what it was and we left the plaeces in a shambles when we left.
We still live off the backs of countries that specialise in sweat labour by buying cheap shirts in Primark, or carpets that have been made by going young girls who have gone blind in their manufacture.   
We fill up our cars with petrol from a country that hands out 1000 lashes for speaking out of turn, and we sell their rulers weapons so it can stay that way - and when their people come to the west to seek a better life, we brand them in their entirity as paedophiles, social security spongers or "a threat to our culture".
I seem to remember your saying you were a Christian - what kind of Christian spreads shit like you and Keith do?
Simple question – what do you propose should be done about multiculturalism – send them a;ll back where they came from (we're into something like the third of forth generation of emigration now.
"No, it isn't."
'Tis, I'm afraid Peter
Depicting an African minister as an ape, or Nigerian Muslim women as benefit scroungers is racist, whatever colour you paint it (pun intended)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Feb 15 - 08:46 AM

As long as it's your stuff and your money, you can leave it to whoever you like as long as your will is expressed clearly and is properly witnessed. If you don't leave a proper will, the laws of intestacy apply. In your will you can do the dirty and not give reasons. But the law allows anyone who feels badly done to to object and try to get the will overturned. Unless someone can tell me that these new proposals are going to change any of that, I can't see what the argument is about. I await.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Feb 15 - 08:57 AM

Law Society withdraws Sharia succession principles practice note

24 November 2014

The Law Society has withdrawn its practice note on Sharia succession principles following feedback, including from some members.

Law Society president Andrew Caplen said:

'Our practice note was intended to support members to better serve their clients as far as is allowed by the law of England and Wales.

'We reviewed the note in the light of criticism. We have withdrawn the note and we are sorry.'

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Feb 15 - 09:23 AM

"I can't see what the argument is about. I await."

It's about ethics.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Feb 15 - 09:33 AM

What ethics? If I toddle along to my solicitor to make a will, and tell him I want to leave my half million to the cats' home or the Monster Raving Loony Party, leaving my kids nothing, he will comply. Of course, my kids have the right to object, and the lawyer would advise me of the likelihood of that. But the ethics are my doing, not his. All I ask him to do is to make sure my will is a rock-solid legal one.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Feb 15 - 09:44 AM

(Don't worry, kids: the stuff's all yours and you'll be lucky if there's half a million pee!)

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Feb 15 - 09:58 AM

"What ethics?"

The ethics of a solicitor seen to be aiding, abetting and perpetuating the practice of treating women as lesser than men and of practicing discrimination on the basis of religious belief.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Feb 15 - 10:10 AM

"aiding, abetting and perpetuating the practice of treating women as lesser than men"
Could be any religious, racial or political group anywhere on the planet
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Feb 15 - 10:28 AM

allright Jim. you can have this one. you sure have convinced me. all the problems in the world are directly attributable to wicked British imperialists.

you have won this argument.

could we possibly have a thread reserved for people who think the world is slightly more complicated.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Feb 15 - 10:48 AM

"Could be any religious, racial or political group anywhere on the planet"

But nowhere, that I know of, is it practiced in law other than in those countries that operate under Sharia law.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Feb 15 - 11:09 AM

But it sure as hell is practiced virtually universally in FACT.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 28 Feb 15 - 11:15 AM

Jim:
Depicting an African minister as an ape, or Nigerian Muslim women as benefit scroungers is racist, whatever colour you paint it (pun intended

I don't know the back-story behind the African minister depitction, but I have some knowledge of the Boko Haram / Benefits scenario, and what you're failing to do here is put the cartoon into context, and to apply the French sense of humour (cultural imperialism on your part?).

Charlie Hebdo has always been a strongly *socialist* magazine. One of the things its front-page cartoons often do is conflate 2 or 3 current news stories into one to make a point by taking something to the extreme, and showing a "reductio ad absurdum". The week this cartoon came out the big news stories in France were the girls kidnapped (and probably raped) by Boko Haram and the French Government's proposals to reduce benefits....in particular benefits to new mothers. The point Hebdo was making with this cartoon was directly against the benefit reduction proposals. The way it was intended (and the way a typical French person following the news that week would have seen it) is not racist.

You (and to be fair, many other Brits) have chosen to interpret this cartoon in the light of your own cultural preconceptions...not something I'd have thought someone committed to understanding multiculturalism would have done quite so readily.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Feb 15 - 11:23 AM

This is just cobblers. There's nothing stopping anyone making a will that cuts people out on the grounds of anything at all: gender, religion, race, jealousy, revenge, meanness, love of cats greater than love of humans, etc., and never has been. Now if you're telling me that any Sharia wills arrangement would prevent the contesting of a will, then that would be different. Otherwise, this is just another case of racist Sharia scaremongering. I don't like the idea of Sharia any more than anyone else, but I also don't like the mention of it to be used in this hypocritical manner.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Feb 15 - 11:36 AM

"But nowhere, that I know of, is it practiced in law other than in those countries that operate under Sharia law."
Utter nonsense
We really have been here on this - equal pay, glass ceilings, women presented as "available" or "meat", refusal to allow women termination of unviable pregnancies, or win cases of rape, or incest, or where a woman's life is threatened, churching, Magdalene Laundries,.... right down to being refused service in bars or membership of certain clubs
Rape within marriage was not recognised fully as a crime in Britain and America until the 1990s
What planet do you live on?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Feb 15 - 11:56 AM

"There's nothing stopping anyone making a will that cuts people out on the grounds of anything at all"

But there is a law that stops Muslims from bequeathing equally to females and from bequeathing at all to non Muslims, it is called Sharia law.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Feb 15 - 12:00 PM

Which is not recognised in this country.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Feb 15 - 12:05 PM

Lets get back to the point.
You asked for stats Steve I gave them to you then you started wriggling, then Jim and Dave joined in the wriggling....Team Musket does nothing else.

Straight and simple 27% of UK Muslims give some sort of support to the terrorists of Charlie Hebdo.....Incidentally, I don't see that mag as being genuinely socialist. It seems to be a bit of a satirical rag like own.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Feb 15 - 12:12 PM

And, the Hebdo gang went on to kill police and Jews after the cartoonists.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Feb 15 - 12:20 PM

Anyway, back to that poll. Not all the findings have been discussed here yet. Here's some more. 35% feel that most British people don't trust Muslims. 46% feel that Britain is becoming less tolerant of Muslims. 46% feel that prejudice against Islam makes it very difficult being a Muslim in this country. Check out comres.co.uk. The poll was carried out by telephone. 1000 people were polled. Interestingly, that included only 470 women. Those figures seem to indicate that many Muslims feel mistrusted and uneasy about expressing their culture. Yet almost all Muslims in this country are law-abiding and hard-working. So what's that all about then? We hear powerful voices condemning antisemitism, and I for one am right with them. But where's the outrage against Islamophobia?

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Feb 15 - 12:26 PM

They did not "give some sort of support to the terrorists". For the third time, there was no question in the poll involving the terms terrorism or killings. That is just your totally unjustified extrapolation. Incidentally, look back at that Telegraph link and tell us whether you think its headline properly represented the poll at all. Sensationalism, yes?

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Feb 15 - 12:28 PM

..so let's see.. 27 off 100 is...
[counting fingers.. then rummaging in a cupboard for calculator..]

.. 73 !!!

that's 73% ... that's a pretty good positive majority by any standards.. eh ???

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Feb 15 - 12:37 PM

" then Jim and Dave joined in the wriggling."
And you have ducked out of responding
You have been give the facts of multiculturalism 0- a asked for your alternatives - and the rest is silence.
So I ask again - what is your solution - mass deportation?
You actually brought it up in the first place so you can hardly blame anybody else for "wriggling".
You have also been responded to on your statistics - pretending that you haven't is what call "wriggling", quite common with your particular little sect.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Feb 15 - 12:57 PM

then Jim and Dave joined in the wriggling

No wriggling here, ake. Link to some if you can find any. Just facts.

What happened to 'the issue not the poster' that you preach BTW?

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Feb 15 - 01:03 PM

Sharia Law? Try checking Jewish law, as practised - in fact- by the Orthodox and Hasidim.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 28 Feb 15 - 01:06 PM

Tell us your version of this law Greg ?

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Feb 15 - 01:06 PM

As with Keith and his Guardian lie, I've been obsessively sticking to the facts here (bar my little glitch, cheerily apologised for). It's very simple really, akenaton. All I have to do is see what you're saying, go back to the actual questions asked in the poll, compare the two and find that you're a liar. Nothing to it.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Feb 15 - 01:11 PM

"Anyway, back to that poll. Not all the findings have been discussed here yet. Here's some more. 35% feel that most British people don't trust Muslims. 46% feel that Britain is becoming less tolerant of Muslims. 46% feel that prejudice against Islam makes it very difficult being a Muslim in this country. Check out comres.co.uk. The poll was carried out by telephone. 1000 people were polled. Interestingly, that included only 470 women. Those figures seem to indicate that many Muslims feel mistrusted and uneasy about expressing their culture. Yet almost all Muslims in this country are law-abiding and hard-working. So what's that all about then? We hear powerful voices condemning antisemitism, and I for one am right with them. But where's the outrage against Islamophobia?"

The answer's simple, Steve, is it not? Muslim extremists, aided and abetted, by design or by accident, by organisations like UKIP and rags like the Daily Mail, are winning the propaganda war and achieving some of their main aims, namely to foment ill-feeling and distrust of Muslims amongst non-Muslims, to de-stabilise social structures within countries where Muslims are in the minority, and eventually to create a situation where Muslim minorities feel sufficiently threatened that they need to act against the non-Muslim majorities in those countries.

It's by these means that the minority violent extremists seek to manipulate the majority moderate, peaceful Muslims in order to eventually achieve their declared aim of establishing a global Caliphate. It's a very long-term goal, but they have time on their hands an are prepared to take as long as necessary.

I'm not worried about Muslims in the UK, they're welcome to be my neighbours (in fact, some are!), but I am worried that the barbarity of a minority in the Middle-East which we keep hearing about in the media is being used as a stick to beat moderate, peaceful Muslims in the UK, until it comes to the point where they feel compelled, and empowered, to rebel.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Musket
Date: 28 Feb 15 - 01:20 PM

Sharia Law eh?

Ever been to an employment tribunal? About the best example of us enshrining Sharia principle in our law. "Arbitration by community leaders and their advisors that does not take precedent into account,"

Up till recent times, we had it in this country until arbitration through the church was passed to secular courts as we became a less superstitious country.

Some people want small differences of opinion sorted through arbitration by their Imam and a committee of older people. Others want it to be legally binding. The law allows the former and it is used, always has been used since the first mosque here in Victorian times and whilst we have freedom of expression always will be.

Of course, as with all religions, normal rational folk can't understand the role of religion nor why people support a load of cobblers but that's their choice.

The only law in England that is discriminatory from a superstitious angle and according to what I read is likely to be challenged soon in The European Courts is the one saying CofE licences to marry people precludes gay people and that you can be sacked from your job for marrying if you are a gay vicar.

Excellent example of our government caving in to bigotry for populist reasons. However, the clause is in secondary legislation and contradicts primary legislation on equality. The government know this so can "blame" others when sanity prevails.

Fascinating how people who reckon they are religious can cast doubt on law abiding Muslims whilst refusing to condemn bigotry in their own ranks.

I spent quite a bit of time trying to improve forensic mental health provision, both from a commissioning and a regulatory aspect, and hear it from me. When the voices tell people to sharpen their axe, it's usually Jesus telling them, occasionally Beelzebub and sometimes Allah. I have yet to hear a chaplain of any faith call that rational.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Feb 15 - 01:28 PM

Tell us your version of this law Greg ? )

Its not a single statute, but a code of law. You don't need my "version" when you can look it up yourself, nor can it be condensed into a sentance or two. You might start by searching Jewish law and women. Then refine by Orthodox & by Hasidic. You might just learn something. Or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Feb 15 - 01:28 PM

"Try checking Jewish law"

Can you tell us what countries are governed by Jewish law, Greg F?

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Feb 15 - 01:33 PM

Can you tell us what countries are governed by Jewish law, Greg F?

Don't be an ass. I'm talking about what actually operates in the real world, irregardless of "what countries are governed by Jewish law".

By the way: Are you claiming ISIS and Al Quaida are countries?

Oh, and there's this place called Israel........

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Feb 15 - 01:48 PM

Did you hear about the British intelligence agent who arrested Jilted John ?

He should have gone to Specsavers....

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 28 Feb 15 - 01:55 PM

Let me just say that I know rather a lot about Jewish "Law" and having lived in Israel, I know a bit about that as well. Jewish law does not govern the state of Israel. Nor does Hasidic law.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Feb 15 - 01:57 PM

To Greg F.

Since you insist on bringing Israel into the discussion here you can find a description of it's legal system. I don't see anything in there that resembles what you refer to as "Jewish Law" but maybe you can find something Israeli Law Guide

Here you will find a list of countries that use Sharia law in whole or in part: Application of Sharia law by Country

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Feb 15 - 01:59 PM

So, how many nations are governed by Murphy's law ???

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Feb 15 - 02:09 PM

It's by these means that the minority violent extremists seek to manipulate the majority moderate, peaceful Muslims in order to eventually achieve their declared aim of establishing a global Caliphate.

It's by giving the so called caliphate the oxygen it needs to survive that people are assisting it. Publications other than the Daily Heil and Torygraph make a lot of sense. Try this one from Aljazeera

Hope it helps.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 28 Feb 15 - 02:16 PM

I did not bring Israel into this conversation, you did, greg.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Feb 15 - 02:20 PM

Oh yes, Al Jazeera, mouthpiece of the Emir of Qatar, principal financier of ISIS and other Islamist terrorist groups.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Feb 15 - 02:52 PM

Errr, if you didn't notice, dear guest, the article is quite anti-ISIS.

Do people on here ever actually read links or do they just put their mouths in motion without engaging their brains?

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Feb 15 - 03:40 PM

But there is a law that stops Muslims from bequeathing equally to females and from bequeathing at all to non Muslims, it is called Sharia law.

No there fucking isn't. not in this country anyway. Remember

Currently Sharia Law is not recognised in the British legal system but a number of informal Islamic courts are in operation across the country, generally offering guidance in marriage issues.

I only mentioned it a couple of hours ago.

Religious tenets are absolutely fuck all to do with the law in this country and most of the civilised world. Long may it stay that way.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Feb 15 - 03:56 PM

Wriggle, wriggle. :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Feb 15 - 04:06 PM

WTF you on about, ake. I asked you before to provide a link to any wriggling by me and you did not do so. We can only assume that you are talking through your arse. Again. Either put up or fuck off.

Or by wriggle are you referring to your status?

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Feb 15 - 05:10 PM

DtG, you've lost track of the conversation, I suggest you go back and review.....or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Feb 15 - 06:11 PM

Let me just say that I know rather a lot about Jewish "Law" and having lived in Israel, I know a bit about that as well. Jewish law does not govern the state of Israel. Nor does Hasidic law.>

Is sure as hell governs the behavior of Orthodox and Hasidic Jews, in Israel and elsewhere tho, doesn't it?

Once again, I'm talking about how things operate in the real world, not what may or may not be on the law-books of a state.

I did not bring Israel into this conversation, you did, greg.

Where did I say you had? And have you looked up those references yet?

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 28 Feb 15 - 06:53 PM

I always said democracy was over rated.

I usually say it as an ironic joke but looking at some of the bigoted anti anyone different to them shit going on here, I begin to wonder...

There again, Akenaton for all his bluster claims a) to be a Socialist and b) a member of a political party that puts equality and LBGT issues as one of their main agenda items, having voted through marriage for all and selling Scotland as a melting pot of multi culturism.

Presumably some of the others on this thread yearn to reach his intellectual level...

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Feb 15 - 07:15 PM

Akenaton, a little word in your shell-like. No-one here bar you is wriggling. It's really simple: you say what you would have liked your link to say, we go back to the link and find that you're lying. It's so easy for us. Anyone here can do it. Why you think you can get away with your blatant misrepresentations is anyone's guess. You must think we're all fools. I have news for you...

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Musket
Date: 01 Mar 15 - 03:20 AM

White Rabbits!

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Mar 15 - 03:45 AM

Dave, I thought that Aljazeera piece very informative, but it does not contradict anything in The Telegraph.
If I have missed something, please point it out.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Mar 15 - 03:55 AM

"Can you tell us what countries are governed by Jewish law, Greg F?"
Israeli expansionism is driven by the Zionist idea of where its boundaries should extend to and many of the atrocities carried out down the years have been the result of Zionist extremism.
The fact that that extremism is not written into Israeli law is immaterial, the effects are the same.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Mar 15 - 03:57 AM

Missed a bit.
JEWS AGAINST FASCISM
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Mar 15 - 05:05 AM

Sadly, Begin was just one of a number of terrorists who went on to achieve "political respectability" in successive Israeli regimes without modifying their ways of thinking.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Mar 15 - 05:17 AM

Why do you people always and only attack Israel, even on threads about something else?

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Mar 15 - 05:29 AM

"Why do you people always and only attack Israel, even on threads about something else?"
Why do you people defend Israeli State terrorism and try to manipulate threads whenever it is raised?
You have been told before - dozens of times - you have no authority on this forum (not even respect) and you have no right to say what is relevant and what is not - you don't want to discuss this aspect of the rise in religious extremism - the anser is simple - butt out!
Israeli behaviour in the Middle East has as much tpo do with the rise of Islamist extremism as has the Western need for oil, or the support for Assad or the long-term persecution of Muslims in Britain and elsewhere
Refusing to discuss these aspects is only indicative of your Islamophobic and racist agendas
So be a good pratt and mind your own business; if you are not interested, it's nothing to do with you
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Mar 15 - 05:48 AM

Keith, I have asked you to stop addressing me for reasons that are listed in a now lost thread. You know them well and unless you wish me to I will not repeat them. Address issues, not people.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Mar 15 - 05:48 AM

It is true I sometimes put Israel's side of the story, but I do not hijack unrelated threads to do it.

There are dozens of threads about Israel that you could reopen.
Why do you have to hijack this one?

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Mar 15 - 06:01 AM

all the preceding really begs the question - whatever your politics. English society has created this ghoul - is there anything poisitive we can do to stop it happening again.

We all enjoy the good things our society gives us - so collectively we ALL bear responsibility for what has perverted this young person. Can we as individuals do anything?

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Mar 15 - 06:11 AM

That question has been asked many times since 7/7.
No-one has come up with a plan yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Mar 15 - 06:22 AM

Integration is the answer, "multiculturalism" has failed in reference to such diverse cultures.
Islam will always confront Western "liberalism"......it is a fight to the death.

Personally, I believe many of our social values have become debauched, but that is in the nature of capitalism in decline and NOTHING excuses the hideous crimes and cruelty of Radical Islamism.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Mar 15 - 06:30 AM

Well said, Al, and I refer you to the BBC survey I linked to earlier which makes it quite plain that it is not Muslims who are resiting integration.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Mar 15 - 06:55 AM

...and in fairness, for once, I agree with ake's statement that nothing excuses these crimes.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Mar 15 - 07:26 AM

" is there anything positive we can do to stop it happening again."
It might be a good start to recognise it for what it is and how it got to be what it was.
It is based on religious extremism which is to be found in all religions - including Christianity.
It got be powerful by the long term alienation of Muslims and by pandering to despotic dictators in Syria, Libya, Bahrain, and all the other states we sell arms and military equipment to - Isis stepped into the gap and used that alienation to recruit angry young people to fight its battles.
The U.S. has championed the causes of extremist states in the interests of oil and Britain, poodle like - has followed its lead - western leaders flocked to the recent funeral of King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia to pay their respects at the same time as a journalist was receiving part of his sentence of 1000 lashes for speaking out of turn - doesn't come plainer than that.
Israel has added fuel to the flames by slaughtering over 2000 Palestinians last year, most of them civilians and many of them women and children.
A good step towards a solution would be to recognise that Isis terrorism is no more Muslim that Israeli terrorism is Jewish.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Mar 15 - 08:06 AM

"Why do you people always and only attack Israel, even on threads about something else?"

That is not hard to figure out.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Mar 15 - 08:22 AM

"That is not hard to figure out."
Certainly isn't but it would be Antisemitic to describe it as Antisemitic acoording to the European definition of Antisemitism
EUROPEAN FORUM ON ANTISEMITISM 2012
Working definition of Antisemitism
"Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel.
However, criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic."
Now what have you figured out Brucie?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Mar 15 - 08:33 AM

perhaps we should start a Mudcat/ Muslim friendship initiative.

i mean alright Jim, we're all guilty as fuck but it doesn't get us much further forward. on top of acknowledging guilt, there is positive action.

Subject: RE: BS: Jihadi John identified
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Mar 15 - 08:48 AM

"there is positive action"
No quick fix unfortunately Al, and if it's down to the usual group of War Crimes supporters who use forums like this to spread their hate, there never will be.
If you are a voter (I no longer am), remember that your major parties are all endorsing weapon sales to the feudal dynasties that the Arab Spring revolts tried to get rid of - virtually into the first two weeks of the revolts Cameron hosted an enormous Arms Fair to sell weapons to States like Saudi Arabia and Bahrain, and had previously issued export licenses for sniper ammunition and riot control equipment to Assad the Insane.
We can't do much but "every little helps", as than nice man in Tesco keeps telling me
Jim Carroll