BS: Netanyahu

Subject: BS: Netanyahu
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Mar 15 - 05:36 AM

US members have been very quiet on Mr Netanyahu's speech to Congress, any views and what effect will it have on the forthcoming election?

What are Mrs Clintons views for example?

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/04/world/middleeast/netanyahu-congress-iran-israel-speech.html?_r=0

Subject: RE: BS: Netanyahu
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Mar 15 - 05:59 AM

When asking for views it is usually common to let other people know yours first. Otherwise they may think you have some sort of hidden agenda waiting to trap them.

Not sure why you are asking for Mrs Clinton's views on here. I don't think she is a contributor and I am not sure if any Mudcatters are privy to what she thinks.

Subject: RE: BS: Netanyahu
From: Musket
Date: 04 Mar 15 - 07:49 AM

"What are Mrs Clinton's views"?

What an odd question? Unless of course you are the sort of person who pre judges others based on some irrational thoughts as to your opinion of them.

Although as Akenaton lives in Scotland and claims to be a member of SNP, yet dismisses equality as a liberal plot, perhaps I too could show my prejudice and wonder what Akenaton thinks of his leader's speech this week claiming that equality is the key to prosperity?

Subject: RE: BS: Netanyahu
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Mar 15 - 08:39 AM

Sic him lads.

Subject: RE: BS: Netanyahu
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Mar 15 - 08:43 AM

What Muskie and Dave just said - only to add that, hopefully, his arrogant declarations in Congress (beautifully summed up by a cartoon in this morning's Irish Times showing Nessie the Yahoo carrying a protest banner saying "Ban THEIR Bomb) will lead to the U.S. thinking twice before using their U.N. veto to prevent Israeli war crimes being tried at the International Criminal Court.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Netanyahu
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Mar 15 - 08:45 AM

As Mrs Clinton will in all probability, be the next President of the US, I would be interested in her views on this very important issue ...for Americans.

President Obama is at present keeping Mr N at arms length and encouraging dialogue with Iran.....this is a huge "Sea change" in American politics, but Mrs Clinton has always been more pro Israeli and rather hawkish regarding the Palestine/ Israeli question.

I come here to learn and inform rather than make unfunny jokes or provoke nastiness.....I suggest you do likewise.

Subject: RE: BS: Netanyahu
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Mar 15 - 08:49 AM

Jim....you have provided an interesting view, so why do you agree with the dynamic duo?

Subject: RE: BS: Netanyahu
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Mar 15 - 08:55 AM

"why do you agree with the dynamic duo"
Because they sum up my opinion of you - that you have made up your mind on things and are not the slightest interested in what we believe unless we agree with you, which pretty well goes for your band of brothers.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Netanyahu
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Mar 15 - 08:57 AM

They seem to think that I have some sort of hidden agenda regarding Mr N, or want to talk about the SNP and equality????? :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Netanyahu
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Mar 15 - 09:01 AM

I really opened the thread to get the views of some of our US members, who I find a lot more forthright and genuinely interesting than your friends....to be honest.

You will no doubt be horrified to hear that I fully agree with some of your views, I'm sure that at some point you must have been a political radical :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Netanyahu
From: GUEST,puzzled
Date: 04 Mar 15 - 09:15 AM

"Not sure why you are asking for Mrs Clinton's views on here. I don't think she is a contributor and I am not sure if any Mudcatters are privy to what she thinks."

Since when has that troubled the Mudcat faithful?

Subject: RE: BS: Netanyahu
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Mar 15 - 09:20 AM

Anything in the news about world events is purely for entertainment value, to reassure us that we're an informed electorate and to shape our opinions in preparation for what's happening next. We can only guess about what's really going on by looking at maps of pipeline routes and oil fields.

In the US, it's long been standard for the president's party to appear to support current US foreign policy and for the other party to want to impeach him for it. After an election, they reverse those roles. Israel has always been portrayed as the darling child or cute dummy who nonetheless habitually misbehaves against daddy or the ventriloquist. Now the powers that be seem to be trying to combine those two acts, so that Israel is the darling only of the opposition party and is the nemesis of the current president.

Subject: RE: BS: Netanyahu
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Mar 15 - 09:27 AM

You forgot to mention AIPAC, The arch-Zionist elephant in the room (that room being the Oval Office). While they have their claws in US politicians you can forget any talk of democracy.

Subject: RE: BS: Netanyahu
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Mar 15 - 09:27 AM

That's VERY cynical guest!.....was your grandfather a Scot by any chance?

Subject: RE: BS: Netanyahu
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Mar 15 - 09:27 AM

Issues, ake, issues. Not personalities. I have addressed the issue that you have not given us your view and that it is not likely that anyone on here will have intimate knowledge of Clinton's views. For that you attack me. Why?

Subject: RE: BS: Netanyahu
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Mar 15 - 09:32 AM

There ARE people on here with intimate knowledge of Mrs Clintons views.    I did not start this thread to give MY view, I wish to be informed as the information available in our media is scant to say the least.

Subject: RE: BS: Netanyahu
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Mar 15 - 09:40 AM

I agree with Dave fully about the opening post. I also think we should challenge, every time, anyone who puts links up without comment, whatever the issue. As for this matter, Mrs Clinton, just like every other president (if she gets in), will have her views on the Middle East moulded for her by pragmatism and expediency, not principles. Oh, and by AIPAC. Any US politician that doesn't fall in line with that is toast. In the land of the free, too.

Subject: RE: BS: Netanyahu
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Mar 15 - 09:46 AM

Why the fixation on AIPAC Shaw when there are over thirteen thousand government lobbyists in the US or you believe that old shibboleth that Jews control the government along with the banks and newspapers.

Subject: RE: BS: Netanyahu
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Mar 15 - 09:51 AM

You always agree fully with Dave, Steve.
I would expect nothing less of you.

Subject: RE: BS: Netanyahu
From: GUEST,cynical
Date: 04 Mar 15 - 09:53 AM

Steve: I did include AIPAC. That's part of the ventriloquist act. In reality, Israel is Airstrip Two. As part of the act, we're given to believe that US policy toward Israel is shaped by large campaign contributions from Jews. That's absurd. Other value is no doubt received in exchange for at least some of those contributions, but US foreign policy is shaped around non-sentimental objectives, and Israel plays its role in that policy. I assume that a corresponding act is presented to the public in Israel to try to distract them from the reality.

Akenaton: No Scots that I know of.

Subject: RE: BS: Netanyahu
From: GUEST,puzzled
Date: 04 Mar 15 - 09:56 AM

"was your grandfather a Scot by any chance?"

Not that I know of.

Subject: RE: BS: Netanyahu
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Mar 15 - 10:23 AM

his arrogant declarations in Congress

I think you meant to say Netanyahu's lies.

Netanyahu is a putz, always was a putz, and always will be a putz.

...The Boehner-Netanyahu alliance has done something that larger foreign policy crises have not: It has led to the open distinction between support for the State of Israel and allegiance to politicians who lead it.

"It's a tipping-point moment," said Rabbi John Rosove, an outspoken liberal and head of Temple Israel of Hollywood. "It's no longer the Israeli government, right or wrong. The highest form of patriotism and loyalty is to criticize from a place of love."

Article Here

Subject: RE: BS: Netanyahu
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Mar 15 - 10:29 AM

"You always agree fully with Dave, Steve."
You always agree with Rabid Keith - I expect nothing MORE of you.
You once said that mass-murderer Breivik was saying things worth listening to
We can pick our friends, but not our relatives, as the old saying goes.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Netanyahu
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Mar 15 - 10:30 AM

What's a putz Greg?

Subject: RE: BS: Netanyahu
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Mar 15 - 10:30 AM

Not cynical enough, Guest. First, I wish to point out that AIPAC has many members who are not Jewish. It's a pro-Israel lobby. Second, it's about more than donations. It's also about aggressive lobbying (fine) and briefing against people who publicly criticise Israel for any reason at all (not fine). AIPAC has the influence and resources to prevent people from getting elected. Yet no-one elects them. You're being rather kind.

Subject: RE: BS: Netanyahu
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Mar 15 - 10:37 AM

I do not always agree with Dave. Ask Musket why don't you. I still haven't forgiven Dave for losing two bingo balls in that car park. We never stop arguing about it. And his silence over my telling Betty Swollox that he's going to be providing her with "perks" so that I can pay her less than the minimum wage speaks volumes, frankly. A running sore.

Subject: RE: BS: Netanyahu
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Mar 15 - 10:41 AM

Why the fixation on AIPAC Shaw when there are over thirteen thousand government lobbyists in the US or you believe that old shibboleth that Jews control the government along with the banks and newspapers.

Absurd post. Do call me Steve, Mr Angry. What's a "government lobbyist" by the way? And you mentioned Jews. I didn't.

Subject: RE: BS: Netanyahu
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Mar 15 - 10:41 AM

Jim, your problem is personalities, you just cant handle them.
This is not a battlefield, it's a discussion forum.
Keith and I disagree on most things political, and agree on a few things social, but I like Keith even taking into account our differences.

I think it's called social interaction?

Shouting and printing your views in blood red type does not make this social interaction any easier.

Subject: RE: BS: Netanyahu
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Mar 15 - 10:42 AM

"There ARE people on here with intimate knowledge of Mrs Clintons views. "

I don't know of any... and she has said very little recently.

I have disliked Netanyahu since the first Gulf War. He is an extreme hawk and would have everyone at each other's throats if it served his/Israel's purposes. I can only assume he intends to make Israel the only relevant power in the area, and annex more & more territory, using 'security' as his justification.

Subject: RE: BS: Netanyahu
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Mar 15 - 10:43 AM

Putz: look it up HERE

Subject: RE: BS: Netanyahu
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Mar 15 - 10:47 AM

...annex more & more territory, using 'security' as his justification.

Kinda reminds one of the old "lebensraum" business, doesn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Netanyahu
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Mar 15 - 10:48 AM

Ironically, Bill, what he offers Israel with this latest spat is far less security. The Israeli people deserve better. I hope this blatant bit of electioneering (going overseas to show your big cojones whilst your own domestic policies flag: time-honoured ploy or what?) doesn't hoodwink the electors at home.

Subject: RE: BS: Netanyahu
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Mar 15 - 10:57 AM

"....annex more & more territory"

What territory has Israel annexed?

Subject: RE: BS: Netanyahu
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Mar 15 - 10:58 AM

"Jim, your problem is personalities, you just cant handle them."
I don't know any of you people - I detest your hatred of minorities, of other cultures, of homosexuality.... and I abhor the idea that you are prepared to use this forum for your bigotry when it a fact that if you made many of your statements away from the safety of the net you would lay yourselves open to prosecution.
I don't exactly admire the way you refuse to respond to points people make, avoiding having to do so by putting them down to "personalities".
You are of a type - not very bright and totally lacking in humanity in any shape or form.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Netanyahu
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Mar 15 - 11:09 AM

"....annex more & more territory"

What territory has Israel annexed?

Barking. And I mean the adjective, not the borough in East London.

Subject: RE: BS: Netanyahu
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Mar 15 - 11:45 AM

Hi Bill, I agree about the nature of Mr N, but he has similarities to President Putin, seeing himself surrounded by warlike enemies.
Israel and her neighbours is a complicated issue, stemming from lack of forethought in the 1940's.....no black and white in this argument.

My post was more about the effect on US voting intentions, given the distance between President Obama and Mrs Clinton which has become apparent. Big change in policy as a response to IS, or is it as Guest says, just a bit of cynical electioneering?

Off out till later but would be interested in your views.
I know at least one member who is a family friend.

Subject: RE: BS: Netanyahu
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Mar 15 - 11:48 AM

Greg that was in Hebrew....unless I wasn't working it properly.
Still don't know what a putz is??? :0(

Subject: RE: BS: Netanyahu
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Mar 15 - 11:52 AM

"Putz, a Yiddish vulgarism for penis"

Wikipedia

Subject: RE: BS: Netanyahu
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Mar 15 - 11:53 AM

"Barking. And I mean the adjective, not the borough in East London."

Try again.

Subject: RE: BS: Netanyahu
From: Musket
Date: 04 Mar 15 - 12:10 PM

I think you can answer your own question, and reset your cookie so everyone can see who you are, although the Secretary of the Israeli Aggression League doesn't need to say who he is, it's rather obvious.

Subject: RE: BS: Netanyahu
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Mar 15 - 12:43 PM

Netanyahu's performance was for his own domestic audience, he is about to go into an election and needs to show that he potentially has at least got tacit support if not absolute backing of US Congress, everybody knows that he and the President don't get along, but this current President is a dead duck with a Congress he cannot control and the next US Presidential election scheduled for Tuesday, November 8, 2016.

With a US Presidential election and more importantly selection of various Presidential candidates for both major parties coming up then I would very much doubt if any of the front runners would be sticking their heads above the parapet and commenting on the detail of this speech.

Subject: RE: BS: Netanyahu
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Mar 15 - 12:45 PM

You weren't working it properly Ake, so here's the C&P from it:

"putz: jerk, fool, simpleton (vulg. penis)"

Subject: RE: BS: Netanyahu
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 04 Mar 15 - 12:58 PM

Israel is a bad neighbor, and when they are the only one in the region with The Bomb, it is not surprising that someone else in the region wants to influence their behavior by developing their own.

Bill D can speak to this well for all of us "US liberals" - the Israelis encroach on Palestinian lands routinely, and for every step closer to a peace agreement or a two-state settlement, they slide two steps back when the zealots put in more new settlements and when walls are built around prime Palestinian orchards and more. I also agree with his remarks re: Hillary. She hasn't said much (but at times she is more hawkish than I like). It would be stupid to insert herself into this conversation and she isn't stupid.

A note to those who would start calling names - being opposed to Israel's politicians and governmental behavior is not being anti-Semitic. It's being rational.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Netanyahu
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Mar 15 - 01:07 PM

There ARE people on here with intimate knowledge of Mrs Clintons views.

I doubt it but can always be proved wrong. I suspect that there are people who believe they know the views of politicians but they only know what the politicians and press tell them.

If there is anyone on here who actually knows her and is privy to her thoughts I will, of course, apologise. Provided that they share those thoughts with us. Think there is any chance?

You, ake, must have an interest or you would not have asked. If you have an interest you must have some views. Why not share them with everyone rather than just ask for the opinion of others? It is only polite when asking for something that you have already given something yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Netanyahu
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Mar 15 - 01:13 PM

Netanyahu's performance was for his own domestic audience, he is about to go into an election and needs to show that he potentially has at least got tacit support if not absolute backing of US Congress

Absolutely. But he went to Congress knowing full well that he would be seen on telly at home getting a standing ovation or six from a sycophantic right-wing Congress packed, fortuitously, with backwoodsmen. And he knew that it would temporarily take the pressure off him over his inept handling of the domestic abuse and housing crises at home. It's what statesmen always do when there's trouble at home and there's an election in sight. Go and kick a foreigner or two on their soil. Even better, rattle your sabre or start a war. Orwell suggested it and Thatcher and Blair did it and Bush did it. Support from Congress for Israel is eternal. There are plenty of knives being quietly sharpened in the wings to make sure of that.

Subject: RE: BS: Netanyahu
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Mar 15 - 01:21 PM

Indeed, SRS -- but bear in mind nevertheless the 2005 definition of antisemitism by the EUMC {The European Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia}, regarding 'the practice of disguised antisemitism masquerading as legitimate criticism of Israel'.

Subject: RE: BS: Netanyahu
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Mar 15 - 01:22 PM

Thatcher, Blair and Bush started what wars Mr. Shaw?

Both the USA, Russia and the UN stand as guarantors of Israel's sovereignty.

Israel has no universally recognised and accepted borders. The Palestinian Authority wanders the globe talking about how they are seeking a Two State Solution but for some reason cannot show anybody their proposed borders for these two states - there is a very good reason for that.

Subject: RE: BS: Netanyahu
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Mar 15 - 01:23 PM

the Israelis encroach on Palestinian lands routinely

I agree with the rest of your post, but, if I were one of the many Israelis who find these incursions into Palestine totally unpalatable, I'd be a bit cross for being included in "the Israelis". There are many voices in Israel which give the lie to the Israeli people's all being in it together.

Subject: RE: BS: Netanyahu
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Mar 15 - 01:24 PM

"the Israelis encroach on Palestinian lands routinely"

The Israelis build housing developments on land that was owned by Jews prior to 1948 or was purchased by them after 1967. There is no border designating so called "Palestinian" land, there is an armistice line which was drawn up as a clause of the truce to end the war in 1967 with the stipulation, agreed to by both parties, that the final border would be determined by negotiation. Do you support the PA's policy of Jewish apartheid for a future Palestinian state?

Subject: RE: BS: Netanyahu
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Mar 15 - 01:30 PM

Starting wars? Yeah, sure, it takes two to tango, innit. But the Falklands wasn't a war till the task force got there. And, remind me, who struck the first blows in Iraq and Afghanistan?