Is this genuine folk dancing?

Subject: Is this genuine folk dancing?
From: GUEST,Joe Moran
Date: 04 Mar 15 - 02:06 PM

They were the days!

href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVR4qpt176Y">An example of genuine English folk dancing.

Subject: RE: Is this genuine folk dancing?
From: GUEST,Joe Moran
Date: 04 Mar 15 - 02:10 PM

This is my final attempt!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVR4qpt176Y

Subject: RE: Is this genuine folk dancing?
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Mar 15 - 02:36 PM

That's lovely. And it looks like great fun!

Subject: RE: Is this genuine folk dancing?
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Mar 15 - 02:42 PM

Course it is! They are folk and they are dancing :-) I suppose it is certainly as, if not more, folk dance than Riverdance anyway!

I like Pan's People. Remember Fletch in 'Porridge' having the same sentiment.

"Always liked them dancers. One in particular. Lovely Babs. Can't remember her name..."

:D tG

Subject: RE: Is this genuine folk dancing?
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Mar 15 - 09:17 PM

Here's some more folk dancing by the same slender young folk in high heels:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1L50IwGW7qc

And here they are doing a sailor's hornpipe:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXINjVN1CUQ

Subject: RE: Is this genuine folk dancing?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 05 Mar 15 - 12:44 AM

It's entertainment, but it's not folk dancing.

high heels
steps are too big
underpants

Subject: RE: Is this genuine folk dancing?
From: Bert
Date: 05 Mar 15 - 01:05 AM

Very nice. The word that I would use would be extrapolated rather than genuine.

Subject: RE: Is this genuine folk dancing?
From: Mr Red
Date: 05 Mar 15 - 02:39 AM

But at least the research was done. Very professional.
And put them in a Ceilidh Spot and the bar would loose a lot of money.

Subject: RE: Is this genuine folk dancing?
From: Mo the caller
Date: 05 Mar 15 - 04:07 AM

It is certainly within a line of the progress of folk dance.
According to Thomas Hardy none our present dances are 'folk'. He says "These 'Country Dances' were not the same as 'folk-dances', though usually considered to be. They superceded and extinguished the latter from a hundred to a hundred and fifty years ago, as being more 'genteel', though sometimes the folk-dances were done within my memory, the motions being more boisterous than in the Country dance, a distinguishing mark of them being the crossing of one leg over the knee of the other, and putting the hands on the hips."
I agree about the horrid shoes which seem to distort the dancing.
But it has stepping and figures. Regency dance was all about showing off your athleticism and accomplishments.
As for the underpants - we went to a Modern American Square dance club for a time. Interesting, but a lot of the emphasis seemed to be on costume and 'skirt work'. The women wore full skirts, many layered petticoats, and 'modesty drawers' and the aim of some seemed to be to display them as many times as possible. Worse still they didn't dance in time to the music.

Subject: RE: Is this genuine folk dancing?
From: BobL
Date: 05 Mar 15 - 04:58 AM

A friend of mine always insisted that for the perfect example of a true folk dance, look no further than the Hokey Cokey. Admittedly urban tradition rather than country, and Maori in origin rather than English, but definitely traditional. Can't argue.

Pan's People are doing an excellent dance routine based on traditional steps and movements. As did the cast at the end of plays sometime in the 18th century, only their routines were sometimes published by the local dancing masters and the directions have survived. Country dancing taken to its limits perhaps, although not folk-dancing as we know it.

Subject: RE: Is this genuine folk dancing?
From: John P
Date: 05 Mar 15 - 09:15 AM

Can dancing as entertainment, with a non-participatory audience, be considered folk dancing? I could argue that question from either side, depending on if I'm looking at folk arts from a process point of view or from a literal point of view.

To put it in more familiar (to me, at least) musical terms, a classical string quartet playing an arrangement of a traditional Irish tune is, without doubt, playing a traditional Irish tune. That's the literal definition. From a process point of view, they are playing almost the exact opposite of traditional Irish music. Not only did they get to the music in a completely different way, but there will be lots of nuances in their performance that are foreign to traditional playing styles, just as there are lots of things in these dances that are not usually seen in "genuine" folk dancing. I guess what I'm saying is that without a definition of "genuine" the answer is both yes and no. As soon as we know what genuine means, we can land on one side or the other.

Subject: RE: Is this genuine folk dancing?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Mar 15 - 11:30 AM

It's entertainment, but it's not folk dancing.
high heels
steps are too big
underpants

If I'd thought about it, I would have realized that folk dancers don't wear high heels, and it's not too surprising to have it pointed out that they use smaller steps than those of professional dancers. But I'm really shocked that folk dancers don't wear underpants. I'll never be able to view Morris dancing the same way again.

Subject: RE: Is this genuine folk dancing?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 05 Mar 15 - 12:43 PM

Is there an authoritative body which defines qualitatively 'genuine folk dancing'?

Subject: RE: Is this genuine folk dancing?
From: Lester
Date: 05 Mar 15 - 12:49 PM

This is folk dancing, not sure its folk music though (I am one of the dancers :)

Subject: RE: Is this genuine folk dancing?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Mar 15 - 05:47 PM

Is there an authoritative body which defines qualitatively 'genuine folk dancing'?

No, the definition changes according to the needs of each specific discussion. It's a good idea to have everyone in the discussion using the same conditional definition, though. Otherwise you have apples arguing with fish.

Subject: RE: Is this genuine folk dancing?
From: GUEST,John P
Date: 05 Mar 15 - 05:48 PM

Sorry, that last was me sans cookie.

Subject: RE: Is this genuine folk dancing?
From: terrier
Date: 05 Mar 15 - 09:34 PM

I can't even imagine why the OP asked the question in the first place, but while we are discussing it nicely, take a little time out for an interlude. Is this piece lovely or not!

Folk dancing??

OK, thread drift over ;)

Subject: RE: Is this genuine folk dancing?
From: Mr Red
Date: 06 Mar 15 - 05:05 AM

PC me, non sprechensie Apple.

Legs & Co, and Pan's People are not Folk they are entertainment. Drawing on a repertoire available to them, ballet etc included.
Morris is not entertainment

(pause for cat calls..... and agreements!)

Therefore must be folk.

The whole point about what is and isn't folk hinges on (opinions aside) who used to do it. The plebs doing it make it Folk, paid performers made it entertainment. IMNSHO.

The ceilidh scene is a living tradition, we Roger of Coverley (in the nicest possible way) today, which was considered old in 1651. And write dances today. (or re-invent some). And what can be more traditional than just that Folk Process?

And if the paid performers want to copy, steal, plagiarise so be it. Their's will be a bit of fluff in 100 years time, just like it was in the 70's.

Subject: RE: Is this genuine folk dancing?
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Mar 15 - 05:34 AM

Morris is not entertainment

Eh??? Of course it's entertainment. What an odd thing to say.

Subject: RE: Is this genuine folk dancing?
From: TheSnail
Date: 06 Mar 15 - 07:26 AM

Lester
This is folk dancing, not sure its folk music though (I am one of the dancers :)

That man is reading his words! I suppose we should just be grateful he isn't using a music stand.

Subject: RE: Is this genuine folk dancing?
From: Mo the caller
Date: 06 Mar 15 - 07:43 AM

Lester, tell us who it was. I couldn't watch it, with all those flashing lights - I'm sure it looked better on stage.

Subject: RE: Is this genuine folk dancing?
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Mar 15 - 07:54 AM

Why would they have Cotswold Morris on a song entitled 'Grim up North'. Why not North West Clog, Yorkshire Sword or North East Rapper?

Subject: RE: Is this genuine folk dancing?
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Mar 15 - 10:51 AM

That dance troupe that terrier linked to is mind-boggling. For most of the performance they appear to be wheeled around on remote-controlled motorized dollies, but in a few spots they make it clear that they're actually doing it all with their legs.

Subject: RE: Is this genuine folk dancing?
From: GUEST,CJB
Date: 06 Mar 15 - 01:30 PM

The tune is actually an English Country Dance tune called 'Portsmouth.' Its but one of thousands of 'folk' tunes published since about the 1650s to the present day. Many of these folk tunes carried a nursery rhyme which likely was disguised political commentary of events at the time.

Critics of Sharp's revival of ECD (which included the original dance 'Portsmouth') termed them 'little ballets.' The ECDs as published in Playford's "Dancing Master" volumes were all aimed at the upper classes. These were not the dances as danced by the lower classes (about which there is little recorded information but which likely included step dancing).

The dance in the YouTube video has as much to do with the general public as the ECDs ever did. The performance - yes entertainment performance - is ephemeral. Balletic. Accomplished. Akin to a minuet of the upper classes.

But NOT folk dance.

Subject: RE: Is this genuine folk dancing?
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Mar 15 - 01:41 PM

The tune is actually an English Country Dance tune called 'Portsmouth.'

Which tune do you mean? Several are refereed to in this thread.

Thanks.

Subject: RE: Is this genuine folk dancing?
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Mar 15 - 01:57 PM

What Mike Oldfield calls "Dulce Jubilo" - is "Portsmouth."

Subject: RE: Is this genuine folk dancing?
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 06 Mar 15 - 02:08 PM

What Mike Oldfield calls "Dulce Jubilo" - is "Portsmouth."

No it isn't! Utter nonsense! Do some research.

Subject: RE: Is this genuine folk dancing?
From: Lester
Date: 06 Mar 15 - 02:14 PM

Re my post up above, the band are The Justified Ancients of MuMu aka the KLF.

Subject: RE: Is this genuine folk dancing?
From: Ross Campbell
Date: 06 Mar 15 - 05:18 PM

And THIS is "Portsmouth"! Courtesy of Mike Oldfield and Legs & Co -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1L50IwGW7qc

Ross

Subject: RE: Is this genuine folk dancing?
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Mar 15 - 05:35 AM

I aint never seen no horse dance

Subject: RE: Is this genuine folk dancing?
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Mar 15 - 06:15 AM

Hmmmm!!! Looks very similar to some dances we did when I was dancing with a local French group - La Bouree.

Subject: RE: Is this genuine folk dancing?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 07 Mar 15 - 10:00 AM

Women dancers suffer a lot from male directors' belief that high heels are sexy. I was watching the movie of 'Anything Goes' last week. Donald O'Connor danced beautifully and Mitzi Gaynor looked like a robot.

I bet Mitzi would have danced far more beautifully in flat shoes.

Oh, and she probably had a stiff foundation garment from bust to mid-thigh under her pretty formal. That can't have helped.

Here's another thing that keeps the OP's dance from being folk - the sheer fabrics in the costumes. That kind of fabric is expensive and tricky to sew, needing special techniques. (It wiggles like crazy.) True, it is used for saris, but saris aren't tailored.

Subject: RE: Is this genuine folk dancing?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Mar 15 - 10:29 AM

"I aint never seen no horse dance"
.,,.,

Wot! Never been to the circus?

≈M≈

Subject: RE: Is this genuine folk dancing?
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Mar 15 - 12:27 PM

It's terrible how men force women to wear high heels and girdles, as Leeneia pointed out. And make-up, and long hair done up in elaborate fashion, and expensive, uncomfortable clothes, which have to purchased again each year because of the new fashions we continually require them to conform to. And in many cases those clothes don't really cover much of their bodies, so that they're forced to appear semi-naked in public, even in cold weather.

It's only our sadistic nature that makes us force them to do all those things. We really should stop. How about it men? Can we all have some pity on women and do the decent, humane thing and relieve them of these burdens?

Subject: RE: Is this genuine folk dancing?
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 07 Mar 15 - 12:41 PM

It's terrible how men force women to wear high heels and girdles, as Leeneia pointed out.

Except that they don't.

Apologies to Mudcat for responding to a troll

Subject: RE: Is this genuine folk dancing?
From: GUEST,Troll
Date: 07 Mar 15 - 06:32 PM

Ed, I said that with tongue in cheek. I don't actually believe that the reason why women spend so much money and energy on clothes is because men require them to do so. Nor do I believe that they make themselves uncomfortable with high-heels and restraining garments because men force them, as Leeneia suggested. I tried to use extreme irony, to make sure no one would think I was serious, but apparently I failed. I apologize for the distress that apparently caused you. I would not have posted it if I'd known that would happen.

Subject: RE: Is this genuine folk dancing?
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 07 Mar 15 - 07:03 PM

You didn't cause me any distress, but point taken!

Cheers

Subject: RE: Is this genuine folk dancing?
From: John P
Date: 07 Mar 15 - 11:31 PM

[rant]
Troll, Ed, I invite you to become a woman and go get a job in corporate America. Yes, women really are forced to wear insubstantial clothing that needs to be replaced much more often than mens clothing. It costs more than mens clothing, restricts movement more, and offers less protection from the elements. Unlike men, women have to spend a substantial amount of time and money on hair and make-up. They're not generally forced to wear high heels, although the ones who do often get ahead faster. They have to shave large portions of their bodies. Think about that next time you start complaining about shaving your face. If they don't do these things they don't get hired, period. All of this in order to make seventy cents for every dollar a man is paid. And if they are married, most of them do most of the housework and cooking. Where's all those feminists when we need them? There's a lot of work still to do.
[/rant]

Subject: RE: Is this genuine folk dancing?
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Mar 15 - 05:19 AM

Good point, John, but do you not think that women can do something about it themselves? It was not by the kindness of men that women got the vote or anything. They protested. They forced the situation. If having to keep up with fashion is so awful maybe they can stop? It can change from within.

Subject: RE: Is this genuine folk dancing?
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Mar 15 - 05:51 AM

I dont like it, I dont care what it is labelled as, it dont rock me baby,

Subject: RE: Is this genuine folk dancing?
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 08 Mar 15 - 06:00 AM

Methinks that John P's rant would be better posted by a woman who actually knew how things are.

Subject: RE: Is this genuine folk dancing?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Mar 15 - 09:00 AM

OTOH from Dick, I found it most charming -- as also the other link later in the thread, with the nice hats. Tho sometimes denounced as a taxonomic purist, I found I wasn't worried here as to categorisation as to folk or otherwise. I always nursed a soft spot for Pan's People anyhow.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: Is this genuine folk dancing?
From: artbrooks
Date: 08 Mar 15 - 09:09 AM

For someone in the US, where "folkdancing" has an entirely different meaning, this entire discussion seems basically identical to the ongoing one on 'what is folk music'.

Subject: RE: Is this genuine folk dancing?
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Mar 15 - 10:31 AM

Folk dancing to me (in the US) means hora, mazurka, hassapiko, etc, all mixed together. I've tried it a few times. I don't know if they include English folk dances, but it would fit right in.

No high heels, though. And I've always assumed they wear underpants. But I used to think that about English folk dancing, too, until I saw this thread.

Subject: RE: Is this genuine folk dancing?
From: John P
Date: 08 Mar 15 - 10:58 AM

Methinks that John P's rant would be better posted by a woman who actually knew how things are.

Why? Do you also think that black people are the only ones who should speak out against racism, or that gay people are the only ones who should decry homophobia? Maybe soldiers are the only ones who should protest going to war?

What makes you think I don't actually know how things are? Do you only know those things that you have personally experienced? What makes you think that witnessing inequality isn't enough to qualify one to talk about it?

Subject: RE: Is this genuine folk dancing?
From: John P
Date: 08 Mar 15 - 11:16 AM

Good point, John, but do you not think that women can do something about it themselves? It was not by the kindness of men that women got the vote or anything. They protested. They forced the situation. If having to keep up with fashion is so awful maybe they can stop? It can change from within.

Protesting doesn't pay the rent or put food on the table. One needs a job to do that. Yes, women can and are doing something about it, and things are changing from within, but with agonizing slowness. We will have a female president before we have pay equality. And before a woman who is assertive isn't looked on as trouble-maker. Women who act like human beings are patriarchically called "independent" as if it were a compliment, even though that word is never used to describe a man who acts in perfectly normal ways. Corporate power is overwhelming owned by white men, most of whom have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo and who have the power to enforce their desires. Why do you think that sex-based pay inequality is still legal and prevalent? Why do you think that companies have the power to decide what their employees have to look like in order to be "presentable", even those those standards are wildly sexist? Change from within will happen, but it will take another two generations or so. And the only way it will happen is if more men get on board and speak out more.

Sorry, this thread isn't about sexism and is very interesting without this tangent. I'll shut up now.

Subject: RE: Is this genuine folk dancing?
From: John P
Date: 08 Mar 15 - 11:26 AM

Here's another side of the question of whether or not performance dancing can be called folk dancing: While it is obvious that the dancing in the video in the OP has many aspects that have never been a part of folk dancing, what about performance troops who actually do real folk dancing, but as entertainment for an audience? Picture a troop of dancers from some Central Asian country that goes on tour in the U.S., playing in large auditoriums to people who enjoy cultural entertainment. Their dances are unchanged from a real folk tradition. There is no public participation. Is it real folk dancing?

Subject: RE: Is this genuine folk dancing?
From: GUEST,Troll
Date: 08 Mar 15 - 11:32 AM

John,

I never imagined myself defending corporate America, and I wasn't thinking of them when I made my ill-fated attempt at humor on the subject, but I have to point out that their dress code is just as strict for men as it is for women.

You were speaking of women holding or seeking executive positions, and not executive positions at Google or similar corporations. Men in that predicament also have to be extremely carefully and expensively dressed and groomed. People of either gender who are content to remain in the mail-room can dress any way we want.

It's true that there are different rules for men than for women, but the rules for women are not stricter. Women at even the highest pay grades in the most conservative corporations are not required to wear ties. If men were given the option to wear skirts instead of pantsuits, then I'm pretty sure the same standards for shaving of legs would apply.

None of this is to say that there isn't social pressure from the opposite sex to dress a certain way. I've never been required to wear a tie, but I used to wear one occasionally just so that I could enjoy the experience of women flashing big smiles at me instead of the usual show of disinterest or contempt.

Subject: RE: Is this genuine folk dancing?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 08 Mar 15 - 02:05 PM

Pay attention. I didn't say 'men' I said 'directors.'

Most women can handle high heels, etc, but dancers need to move with grace and freedom.

Subject: RE: Is this genuine folk dancing?
From: Mo the caller
Date: 08 Mar 15 - 04:01 PM

The dance display teams that come here (UK) from E Europe put on a highly choreographed display. As, to an extent, do all display teams. The Pan's people contains stepping (some of it ballet, some perhaps could be seen in folk), and a few figures. In the same way a Clog team will add shape to their stepping. Even a team that puts together a display of the same dances that you might dance for the fun of it will include choreography to link between the formations of various dances.

Subject: RE: Is this genuine folk dancing?
From: TheSnail
Date: 08 Mar 15 - 04:50 PM

Previously from leenia
Women dancers suffer a lot from male directors' belief that high heels are sexy.

Pan's people "director"

Subject: RE: Is this genuine folk dancing?
From: GUEST,Troll
Date: 08 Mar 15 - 05:25 PM

Leeneia, I see my mistake now. I assumed that by "male directors" you meant men. But of course those directors could just as well be boys or male orangutans.

For the record, I don't much care to see women in high heels, especially dancing. Those sailors' hornpipe dancers looked very good in tennis shoes. And I don't like to see women do any of the other things that give them an artificial and non-feminine look. But I assume it's their choice and so I don't say anything about it unless someone suggests that men require it. I just want to assert that at least some of us do not require it or even prefer it.

The last time I clarified my feelings about this, the woman whose statement I had challenged hooted, "You? You don't even have a job!" (Actually, I was gainfully self-employed at the time, though admittedly in a low income bracket.)

Subject: RE: Is this genuine folk dancing?
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Mar 15 - 05:55 PM

Protesting doesn't pay the rent or put food on the table.

Very poor, John. Sorry. If everyone thought that way nothing would ever get done. We need firebrands. We need rebels. If you are so concerned with putting food on their table, sponsor them or help them. Don't give us the usual capitalist platitudes. You can protest better from a position of power and that is where lots of women are. Stop sucking up to male dominated press. Stop pandering to the fashion industry. It's the only way anything will get done, Brothers! And Sisters... :-)

Subject: RE: Is this genuine folk dancing?
From: Mr Red
Date: 08 Mar 15 - 06:18 PM

well, this thread has demostrated an age old folk pursuit

arguing.

We are not quite ready to invoke Godwinson's Law

But I have Hilter & the Nazis waiting in the wings.

Don't annoy them!

Subject: RE: Is this genuine folk dancing?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Mar 15 - 12:11 AM

Mr Red == The propogator of the "mention-of-Hitler" law was actually called Godwin. I am pedantic about this, because my dear late first wife's maiden name happened to be Godwin [no relation], & she and her family suffered from being constantly rendered as Goodwin. Your Godwinson seems to be a further wrinkle! My own family (Myer) have always suffered similar abuse in form of Myers, a much more common form; or Mayer or Meyer...*

Sorry for drift; but those with such names will sympathise I am sure.

≈M≈

*Tho not consistent in the family worldwide. Louis B Mayer, the famous film-maker, was actually my paternal grandfather's first cousin...

Subject: RE: Is this genuine folk dancing?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 09 Mar 15 - 01:38 AM

It's official: Men can dance in heels better than women.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kc17H68IKMs

Subject: RE: Is this genuine folk dancing?
From: Mo the caller
Date: 09 Mar 15 - 03:38 AM

but why would they want to?