Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation

Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation
From: GUEST,OldNicKilby
Date: 14 May 15 - 07:59 AM

Don't forget Penny S that Ightham is I-tum and I think that Shipbourne is Shi-bun 'cause that is how my old Aunts and Uncles and Cousins called it

Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation
From: Penny S.
Date: 14 May 15 - 04:53 AM

I would argue with the OP about Burwash. My lot called it Burruhsh - with an abbreviated schwa sound - can't write it.

The "ham" like meat, "uhm" with that schwa again confusion is to do with geography. The meaty hams lie in meanders, where the land looks like a pig's backside. The others were once someone's home. In Old English, the first was written "hamm", the second "ham" - I think.

It may help visitors to assume that where there's a "th" in the middle (Eltham, Streatham), the "t" belongs to the first part and is not part of a "th" sound. Elt'm, Strett'm. That way you won't get laughed at like prospective MP's or Bob Hope (who came from Eltham). On the other hand, Lewisham is not Lewis'm, it's Lewi-sham.

Then there's:
Deptford - Detf'd
Greenwich - Grenitch
Peckham - Peck'm
Dulwich - Dullitch
Wrotham - Root'm
Trottiscliffe - Trosley
Shipbourne - Shibburn
Meopham - you should be able to work out that the p belongs to the beginning, not an f sound. Mep'm.
Eynsford - Aynsf'd

And I never got to bottom of Cirencester, which has multiple other versions. Cicester, Cister, Ciceter, Ciren (almost Zoiren) - which seem to have class distinctions. The first three go with an upper accent, the last more rural. I decided, when my parents lived over there, to stick to the full name to avoid problems.

A lot of variations are to do with omitting bits of names - economical speech, versions like Jo'burg for Johannesburg. And that habit has been round for ages. It is known that in late Roman Britain, Rochester - Durobrivae - was pronounced Robri, which became Robrichester, and so what it is now. Something similar happened with York, once Eboracum.

Back to Will Fly's Sussex, I've a dialect book written by an upper middle class woman with a condescending attitude to those further down in society who tells how the doctor really couldn't understand that the local who wanted him to go to an emergency in I Urstood was referring to High Hurstwood.

My grandfather came from Lambrurst (Lamberhurst), and his sister lived in Wodurst (Wadhurst). And there was Crowbruh - Crowborough.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation
From: Thompson
Date: 14 May 15 - 04:51 AM

And simple, normal words in one country may be unknown in another. I've often been asked by Americans how to find the kways, and what this word mean - quay, pronounced key, is a perfectly ordinary word for a dockside on this side of the Atlantic.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation
From: Ged Fox
Date: 14 May 15 - 04:37 AM

This game is at least as old as the 1820s when Cobbett complained about the contrast between Hampshire names as pronounced by map-makers and locals - Hurstbourne Tarrant known locally as Uphusband etc.

I think Southwick near Hove is Southwick, but Southwick, near Portsmouth, is Suthik (with voiced 'th'.) The neighbouring village of Boarhunt is commonly called Borrunt.

The Worthies seem to be worthy in Hampshire, but in West Somerset & North Devon they are usually 'ery.' So Badgery & Pinkery where the map has Badgworthy and Pinkery.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation
From: BobL
Date: 14 May 15 - 03:42 AM

No mention yet of the Cornish fishing village known as "Mowzle" since before anyone in that part of the world could read and write, let alone spell. A cartographer with a sense of humour decided it should be written "Mousehole".

Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 14 May 15 - 03:08 AM

Mr Red suggests phoneticising Machynlleth as "Ma* hunth leth (* is a barely voiced, breathy (non-sibilant) c)"

The * is plausible, but surely it's only some English who turn the unvoiced Welsh L, written as "LL", into "TH" + voiced L.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 14 May 15 - 02:25 AM

Corstorphine in Edinburgh, pronounced, Ker-stof-an. This confuses people who don't know when looking for it.

Dave H

Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation
From: Janie
Date: 14 May 15 - 12:04 AM

Mr. Red and LadyJean, I'm a native West Virginian, who lived and worked in Morgantown for several years. Even so, I can get my brain and my tongue confused between Monongalia County and Monongahela River and National Forest. Especially since the Monongahela River runs through Monongalia County.

As is the case in Illinois, Cairo, WV (Ritchie Co.) is pronounced KAYro.

The beautiful valley and ski resort in WV, Canaan Valley, is pronounced can-NAIN.

I live in Mebane, NC. Pronounced MEBB-in. Named after a revolutionary war colonel. On NPR (when running thru credits on, I think, Weekend Addition where some one with that last name was or is an associate producer,) and on genealogy websites, some folks in other parts of the country pronounce it MEE-BANE.
Hurricane, WV is pronounced HUR-ri-cuhn.

As far as I am concerned, and I think any person from the Appalachian mountains or plateau would agree, the correct pronunciation is App-a-LATCH-un or App-a-LATCH-uh. Saying App-a-LAY-shian (or chian) or App-a-LAY-shia is a dead give away that neither you, your parents, nor your grandparents were from there:>)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation
From: GUEST,alex s no cookie
Date: 13 May 15 - 07:35 PM

Barnoldswick=Barnick

No -it's BarLick
And the inhabitants are Barlickers

Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation
From: Mr Red
Date: 13 May 15 - 07:24 PM

I'm surprised no one has tried to phoneticise Machynlleth

But just to get the ball rolling and wake up those who sairad Cymraig

Ma* hunth leth (* is a barely voiced, breathy (non-sibilant) c)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation
From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
Date: 13 May 15 - 07:01 PM

Oh yes.

Just on the basis of my modest reactions to this thread so far, it could become a structural, epic, mega- permathread.

Just for starters, I commented on the phenomenon to the lady of the house in a nice B&B in a not very exotic part of England a couple of years ago.

I can't even remember exactly where it was, but I think it was in the general vicinity of Kenilworth. I made some joke about the fact that I was probably mispronouncing the name of the place, because e.g. Kenilworth was probably something like "Kudge" or "Kort" to the locals.

She had been a teacher, and shot back the retort that she had struggled throughout her career with Irish pupils who were all Maedhbhs and Sadhbhs. Touché!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 13 May 15 - 06:39 PM

Re Shrewsbury: we lived there for a good few years, and the local paper. the Shropshire Star, did conduct a survey on how the town's name should was pronounced : seemed the commonest pronunciation for true Salopians was to leave out the first r - so it's SHOOSBRIE.
Megan and DTM have covered some of the Scottish ones, but there's also a change of emphasis in some names such as DunBAR and DunLOP (English people tend to emphasise the DUN, whereas Scots emphasise the second syllable). And of course, all those lovely stretches of water are Lohhhhhs, not Locks!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 13 May 15 - 06:36 PM

On the UK Norwich, I say "Norridge". Like the man in the moon coming down and winding up eating cold plum porridge.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation
From: Brian Peters
Date: 13 May 15 - 06:22 PM

In these parts, Tintwistle is often (though not always) pronounced 'Tinzel' by locals.

Citizens of Connecticut insist on sounding the 'W' in their town of 'Norwich'. Not sure which is older.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation
From: GUEST
Date: 13 May 15 - 05:47 PM

Examples abound here in Massachusetts, US.
Woburn = WOO burn or WOO bin
Haverhill = HAYVrill

"My friends live in SWAMPscott," I said to a former GF's uncle, who sniffed, "I can tell you're not from around here" at me. "It's SWAMPsc[u?]t."

Various "ham" endings confuse the uninitiated:
Sometimes the "ham" is pronounced like the meat; other times it's an "um"-like sound. For example, EASTham has the full ham sound, while DEDham sounds more like "DEDum." Many non MAers trip over Framingham, with its first "a' being a long one, followed by the full ham. Even within MA, I have heard many fumble the formidable Ashburnham, which is pronounced ASH'burn ham, not "ash BURN um."

When I visited the UK, I was delighted to hear, on a train, "CHELTnum" (that's how I heard it). There isn't one of these in Massachusetts; it's possible pronunciation here is speculative.

As an aside, the weather event now commonly called a "nor'easter" is more properly a "nawth EAST uh," which is rarely heard these days.

Slow end of the day here at work...great thread...thank you.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 13 May 15 - 12:13 PM

On of my pets is the street in Chicago named Go-ee-thee (Goethe).

Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation
From: akenaton
Date: 13 May 15 - 12:09 PM

Launceston is pronounced "Laan ston"! got that from a 95 year old native :0).....one Audrey Maynard, who has a painting of her fathers sloop "Jessica" on her wall....sailed out of BUDE.
Painting by a Mr Rueben Chappell of Goole.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation
From: theleveller
Date: 13 May 15 - 11:39 AM

"Belvoir in Rutland (Belvoir Castle, Belvoir Hunt etc.) is correctly pronounced Beaver."

Right pronunciation, wrong county - it's in Leicestershire.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation
From: Padre
Date: 13 May 15 - 11:17 AM

Here in Virginia, we have a few:

Botetourt County is "BOT-UH-TOT' not BOTETOORT

Buena Vista is 'BYOONA-VISTA' not BWAYNA VISTA

Buchanan is 'BUCKANNON' not BYOOCANNON

Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation
From: GUEST
Date: 13 May 15 - 10:33 AM

PO-KA-tello. Mispronounce "Pocatello" as PO-CATTLE-oh and they'll laugh at you and make you buy for the bar.

Inkom is prounced INK-um.

Boise is proncounced "BOY-see" and not as the French would.

Quincy is pronounced "KWIN-zee" on in the same state as BOSS-ton. Everywhere else in the US -- Illinois, Indiana, California, Washington -- it's pronounced "KWIN-see".

It's not "MISS-ur-ee" but "MISS-ur-ah." It's "Ill-uh-noy" and not "Ill-uh-noise."

Of course, up in Canada they're having Nunavut.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation
From: Bob the Postman
Date: 13 May 15 - 10:19 AM

The suburb of Victoria BC alluded to in the post of 12 May 15 - 01:15 PM is not Esquimaux but ESQUIMALT, which, according to Professor Wiki, means "place of shoaling water" in Straits Salish. Esquimalt is pronounced as written.

Foreigners (Ontarians and the like) pronounce the name of the BC town "Quesnel" either French-style as "keNEL" or English-style as "KWEZnel", but locals know the secret true pronunciation: "KWEnel".

Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation
From: GUEST
Date: 13 May 15 - 10:17 AM

About 40 years ago in a pub in Aberystwyth I remember some locals laughing about how a guy from Cardigan pronounced Penparcau (a housing estate on the edge of the town). I couldn't tell the difference between they way they said it and the way thy claimed that he did.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 May 15 - 09:49 AM

Osselltwizzle if I remember rightly :-) My Sister lived just of Thwaites Toad there. Locally pronounced, unfortunately, as 'Twatsis Road'!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation
From: Weasel
Date: 13 May 15 - 09:37 AM

Always fun to hear non-locals try to pronounce Oswaldtwistle in Lancashire.

Weasel

Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 13 May 15 - 09:19 AM

Anyone mentioned CAMBOIS yet? That's CAMISS to locals. Then there's SOUTHWELL - which is SUTHELL to out of towners but SOUTHWELL to locals. I like that.

It's right to stress the second syllable of NEWCASTLE, but the first syllable is flattened to a NYUH sound. Otherwise it's THE TOON.

Cley-next-the-Sea (as it was once; what's now the village green was once a harbour!) is CLY, though I much prefer the old JUXTA MARE suffix.

SALLE is SAUL or SOUL - three houses, cricket pitch and a cathedral in the middle of darkest Norfolk. I hope to be there this time next week.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation
From: GUEST,Tootler
Date: 13 May 15 - 07:55 AM

I have disagree with Steve Gardham about MIddlesbrough. I usually hear it as Middlesbro' with a long "O" I remember a station announcer using the same pronounciation for Peterborough - "Peterbro'' Definitetly a Teesside version not a local one from the Petrrborough area.

Newcastle is normally pronounced with the stress on the second syllable "NewCAStle". My wife's nephew married a lass from Detroit. For fun we tried to get her brother to pronounce Newcastle in that way and he couldn't manage it.

Where I used to live in W. Yorkshire, Linthwaite is pronounced "Linfit". Slaithwaite is the next village up the valley and the Slowitt pronounciation, though common was not always used. Some people used "Slathwaite" much nearer to how it was spelt. My brother-in-law uses both depending on who he's talking to.

I remember once we'd been to Manchester and were coming home on the bus. A woman in front of us asked the conductor (they still had them then!) in a posh English accent for Slaithwaite. The conducter looked a little unsure for a minute then asked her, in broad Yorkshire "Does t'a mean Slowitt Lass?"

Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 13 May 15 - 07:01 AM

What most people don't realise with the written word is it is an approximation of the spoken word.
Each letter is a symbol for a sound.
The spelling of the word is the writers attempt to imitate the word as it is spoken,a sort of code.
The spoken language has a great deal of information in it,tone,emphasis,and all the other clues we use to convey meaning are difficult to put into writing.
A local Knows how to say a name ie the way every one else does in the area,a visitor pronounces the name as it is written.
We are taught how to sound letters in school and teachers tell us a word should be pronounced according to the letters in it.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 May 15 - 05:26 AM

Amphitrite.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 May 15 - 05:25 AM

Frigate Amphritite.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 May 15 - 05:22 AM

Belvoir in Rutland (Belvoir Castle, Belvoir Hunt etc.) is correctly pronounced Beaver.

I imagine that most places were once pronounced as spelled.
I bet that Laucestons in US, mentioned earlier, are pronounced as they were here at the time of their founding and probably as spelled.

Foreign names used to be always mispronounced in English as spelled, eg Paris.
Cairo, mentioned earlier, follows that pattern and features in a Dillon Bustin song.
Chile is rhymed with while in the Amphrotite song.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation
From: GUEST, DTM
Date: 13 May 15 - 05:16 AM

Towns/cities in Scotland

Milngavie = Mull-GUY
Linlithgow = LITH-gie
Edinburgh = EM-bra
Glasgow = GLEZ-ga
Anstruther = AIN-stur
Galashiels = GAUL-ie
Hawick = Hike
Newtongrange = NITT-in

Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation
From: GUEST,Sol
Date: 13 May 15 - 04:57 AM

I've always pronounced 'Belfast' as 'BELfast' however in NI it appears to be pronounced 'BelFAST'. A friend from that city said that the residents of the city pronounced it the former way and the rest of the N Irish folk pronounced it the latter way. Is that correct?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation
From: GUEST
Date: 13 May 15 - 03:52 AM

Snozzle = Saint Austell, Snorbans = Saint Albans, Lu?n (where '?' represents the glottal stop) = Luton.

Fifteen miles apart, Houghton Regis is How (or Ow), Houghton Conquest is Hoe (or Oh).

Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation
From: Mr Red
Date: 13 May 15 - 03:38 AM

I bet my Grandfather could pronounce Monongahela. He lived in Allagheny County, 1910-1917 (ish). He came back when he realised he was the only one of his workmates (Allagheny Iron & Steel) who didn't sleep with a gun under his pillow! There are two great uncles buried there aged 6 months and 6 days.

Wednesbury - we Wedgeburyites often referred to it as Wedgebury.
Wednesfield - referred to as Humpshire from the hump-backed lockmakers. It was said (jokingly) that pubs had alcoves so the hump-backed lockmakers could lean back comfortably.
Walsall - war sull
and what about the "areal of Brisel" - the "area of Bristol" to you.
Wiveliscombe Devon, Wivelscum
Stouffville Ontario - Stow-vill
Toronto - Tron'to

Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation
From: GUEST,Kampervan
Date: 13 May 15 - 03:04 AM

That last post was me - Kampervan

Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation
From: GUEST
Date: 13 May 15 - 03:02 AM

In Kent we have Goodnestone near Faversham, this is pronounced Good Ness Stone.

We also have Goodnestone near Canterbury, (about 10 miles away), this is pronounced Gunstone.

Visitors to one, arrviing in the wrong one are frequently 'Not amused'.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation
From: LadyJean
Date: 13 May 15 - 12:32 AM

The community just up the road from me is called North Versailles, pronounce Versayles. There's a Versailles Kentucky, pronounced the same way.

Elizabethtown Tennessee, has the accent on the beth. Elizabethtown Kentucky is called E Town.

The river that runs near my home is called the Monongahela. That's pronounced Mon on ga hay la. You can spot locals, we can pronounce it. People not from around here cannot.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 May 15 - 12:20 AM

The village next along towards Cambridge [which BTW cannot possibly be pronounced as you just said it in your head], is called Wilburton: not pronounced Wilbur-t'n, but Will Burton.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation
From: Leadfingers
Date: 12 May 15 - 10:11 PM

And the next station after Hayes and Harlington is Striton , or West Drayton if you aren't a local .

Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation
From: GUEST,Susie
Date: 12 May 15 - 06:56 PM

Many good 'uns up in my native Cheshire - Cholmondeley said "Chumley" etc, but I think the one that takes the biscuit is Utkinton, said "Yockerton" [home of the famous Yockerton Freedom Fighters].
If you COME from Nantwich - like me - it's NantWICH, not NANTwich.
I suspect that a lot of these fascinating pronunciations in England, at least, stem from early names for those places - probably the Anglo Saxon / Viking names which stayed in the vernacular speech despite Norman overlords. Toponymy has always fascinated me!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 12 May 15 - 06:30 PM

A bit of a drift but I can't do Irish words. I seem to remember getting told that the jig I'd called "Grainne's" (which I pronounced like you might cereal) should be a female name pronounced as "Gronya"

Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation
From: Thompson
Date: 12 May 15 - 06:19 PM

Towns called Leap and Balla in Ireland are pronounced Lep and Bal (rhymes with Hal). Howth is pronounced Hothe (with a soft 'th' like in moth but a long 'o' like in nose); Dalkey is Dawky, Donegal is Dunneygaul, with the emphasis just slightly more on the gaul. Galway is gaul-way. Louth (confusingly for English people) isn't pronounced like the place in England, but with a hard 'th' like the.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 12 May 15 - 05:44 PM

I'm not sure if that could be (and don't think I've heard it suggested before) but my mother's secondary school was Priory Girls. I believe there was also a Priory Boys.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation
From: GUEST
Date: 12 May 15 - 05:34 PM

I have no idea if this is correct or not but I did read somewhere that one pronunciation of Shrewsbury referred to the school and the other to the town.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation
From: GUEST,Dave Hunt
Date: 12 May 15 - 05:09 PM

Happisburgh = Haze-brer (as in the end of Edinburgh)
Loughborough = Luff-brer

nearer home
Wednesbury = Wensbree
Wednesfield = Wensfeeld
Worcester = Wuster
Worcestershire = Wuster-sheer
Uttoxeter = Ucheter
Leominster = Lemster
Shrewsbury is interesting - Shroesbree or Shruwsbree,   Shrewsbury comes from the Saxon name 'Scrobbesbyrig' which doesn't sound like either of them!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 12 May 15 - 04:45 PM

Burgh/brough/borough (the berg/borg of Scandinavia) have lots of spellings and pronunciations. The most common pronunciation is 'burra' regardless of spelling, but American tourists give us some interesting variations like 'borrow'.
Locally we have Middlesbrough, Scarborough, Flamborough, all 'burras' like Edinburgh but Brough is pronounced 'Bruff'. If the Brough comes at the beginning as in 'Broughton' it's pronounced Braw.

Wicks invariably drop the w
Alnwick=Annik
Beswick=Bezzik
Warwick=Worrik
Kilnwick=Killik

Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation
From: GUEST
Date: 12 May 15 - 04:03 PM

In Nottnum it's pronounced Dah-beh or even Der-beh.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 12 May 15 - 04:02 PM

Cairo, Illinois is pronounced KAY-ro.

In Minnesota, there is a lake called L'Homme Dieu (probably Lac L'Homme Dieu) that is pronounced La-HOM-ma-doo. (It's not a very well-known lake, as lakes go. We've got 10,000 of them, don't you know.)

There is a suburb of Minneapolis that always throws newcomers. It's Edina – pronounced Ee-DYE-na. Now, I don't know how Edina got its name, but I've heard it's an old "poetic" name for Edinburgh, Scotland. Is "Edina" a well-known word in Edinburgh? Would a Scotsman pronounce it the same way?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 May 15 - 03:40 PM

I spent my teenage years in Milwaukee, so I'm allowed to pronounce it Muh-WOK-key like the locals (silent "L").

Those of you did not live there in your formative years, are required to pronounce the "L."

There is a way that we locals pronounce "Wisconsin" that many outsiders try to imitate, but they always fail. Don't even try - just pronounce it like it's spelled, or we'll think you're making an ass of yourself by trying to make fun of us.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation
From: GUEST
Date: 12 May 15 - 03:15 PM

Slaithwaite = "Slowitt" (near Huddersfield)

Chop Gate = "Chop Yat" (north of Helmsley)