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Subject: RE: Origins: George Collins: revisited From: Mrrzy Date: 13 Jul 15 - 04:17 PM Notes from the back of the Cynthia Gooding album (the Tasmanians came through!): Known also as Lady Alice (child 85) and Giles Collins (Sharp), taught to her by a friendly amateur folk singer. In earlier versions, the lady is sewing at her window when "the handsomest corpse she ever saw" goes by. As time passed, the emphasis changed and the structure of the song has been greatly simplified. Fascinating. Still no mention of a Silkie... |
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Subject: RE: Origins: George Collins: revisited From: Jim Brown Date: 02 Jul 15 - 08:25 AM Sorry, that anonymous guest was me. I was using another computer and forgot about to sign in. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: George Collins: revisited From: GUEST Date: 02 Jul 15 - 05:08 AM > Vaughan Williams mentions the German poem of the Knight of Staufenberg (c. 1310). Does anyone have a translation of that poem? There's a translation by Robert Jamieson in "Illustrations of Northern Antiquities", 1814: https://archive.org/stream/illustrationsofn00webe#page/n0/mode/2up , pp. 255-265, but it's in an imitation of 14th century English (or Scots) so it doesn't look the easiest of reading. Does anyone know a more modern one? |
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Subject: RE: Origins: George Collins: revisited From: Anne Lister Date: 01 Jul 15 - 04:23 PM Whoops - suddenly realised the book you were referring to was probably the one about linking ballads and medieval texts! Sorry - it's "Folklore and Literature: rival siblings" by Bruce A Rosenberg, Knoxville, 1991. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: George Collins: revisited From: Anne Lister Date: 01 Jul 15 - 04:20 PM Steve - no, it's a romance called Le Roman de Jaufre, written either at the end of the 12th or mid 13th century (opinions vary about dating and whether there was one author or two - anonymous, in either case). There's a relatively recent translation into English available by Ross Arthur, which is just about to come out in affordable paperback (as opposed to the academic hardback version which retails at around £80!). The Lady of the Fountain is in "Yvain, Le Chevalier au Lion" by Chrétien de Troyes as well as in a tale called "Owain, or The Lady of the Fountain" in the Mabinogion. As to the Breton folklore, I've forgotten my original source for that but I'm sure I've seen it in several places. The episode with Morgan le Fay is only one event out of many events in Jaufre, but it's an unusual one for the time. My working assumption is that the version we now have was based on a story in wider oral circulation, possibly as early as the early 12th century, but that isn't going to be capable of proof. I'm working on how to bring it out of academia and back into storytelling repertoire, and I will keep the 'Cat informed of when I'm telling bits of it anywhere. Telling the whole thing would take a few evenings, I think (and that again is something I'll be researching). |
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Subject: RE: Origins: George Collins: revisited From: Steve Gardham Date: 01 Jul 15 - 03:29 PM Anne, Is your book by Steenstrup? If not can you tell us the title please? I'm also interested in these links. It's beginning to look like the English ballad(s) is based on the story in the Breton ballad or some form of folk tale related to it. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: George Collins: revisited From: Anne Lister Date: 01 Jul 15 - 10:47 AM I'm intrigued, while knowing that there is no way of sorting out my intrigue any further ...in Breton folklore there is a character known as a Marie-Morgan, sometimes found by the sea and sometimes in a forest by a well or a spring, who sings to attract the attention of a passing young man. When she has attracted him, she embraces him and pulls him with her into the water, thus inadvertently drowning him, which means she has to go back above ground to sing again. In Arthurian romances there is the Lady of the Fountain, who has a white marble slab on which water can be poured, and when it is it triggers a violent storm follwed by the arrival of a knight in armour who must be fought. In the Occitan romance I'm working on for my PhD there is another fairy woman, almost certainly Morgan le Fay (but not named as such) who needs the help of the hero of my romance and to get it she calls for help near a fountain and then pushes the hero into the water as her kingdom is under water. Luckily he doesn't drown (although everyone above ground thinks he does, until he returns). So although none of this is much like any of your ballads I have (a) a white marble slab, (b) a fairy who sits by a fountain and who might lure a mortal man to his doom (or not) and (c) a fairy who lives in the water. As well as a potential slayer for le roi Renaud, although my memory of the lyrics to that is that he's coming back from battle rather than an aquatic home-breaker. I'm also just starting to read an academic book which is looking at the links between ballads and medieval texts.... Ignore me. It's too hot and I'm probably raving. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: George Collins: revisited From: Richie Date: 01 Jul 15 - 09:52 AM Ty Steve Vaughn Williams mentions the German poem of the Knight of Staufenberg (c. 1310). Does anyone have a translation of that poem? Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: George Collins: revisited From: Steve Gardham Date: 30 Jun 15 - 05:33 PM I have Shenstone's Miscellany. The 5th verse is. What is it you bear you six tall Men, Come lay it down & tell We bear, we bear Giles Collin's corse Who lov'd Lady Annis so well. Stanzas 4 & 6 as far as I can tell are unique to this version, possibly written by Shenstone himself or one of his literary acquaintances. Remove these 2 stanzas and we are left with a pretty standard text in the burlesque style. The important factor here is the date c1760. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: George Collins: revisited From: MGM·Lion Date: 30 Jun 15 - 04:45 PM .. presumably as in the school songbook &c familiar version, "One Friday morn as we set sail...": Child #289, C. ≈M≈ |
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Subject: RE: Origins: George Collins: revisited From: Lighter Date: 30 Jun 15 - 04:30 PM "The Mermaid"? Or is that too obvious? |
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Subject: RE: Origins: George Collins: revisited From: Steve Gardham Date: 30 Jun 15 - 03:53 PM The Silkie of Sule Skerry? |
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Subject: RE: Origins: George Collins: revisited From: Jim Brown Date: 30 Jun 15 - 03:24 PM In the October 1803 issue of the Scots Magazine (available in Google Books), Robert Jamieson published a list of 20 ballads that he was interested in finding versions of for the collection he was planning, with some comments on each one. The list includes the following: "12. MAY COLVIN. I think the Ballad on this subject, which I have heard when a child, was better than that which has been published. 13. CLERK COLVIN & THE MERMAID. Of this I think as of the last mentioned. There is another tragical Mermaid Song in Scotland, of a more extravagant kind, which I should like to procure." So apparently Jamieson (born in Morayshire in 1772) vaguely remembered a version of Child 42 from his childhood which was different from what he had seen in print (by which he presumably meant Herd's version, 42B, and perhaps also the altered version of 42A in Lewis's "Tales of Wonder"). It doesn't prove much, but it at least raises the possibility that the ballad had more life in NE Scottish tradition in the late 18th century than the small number of surviving texts suggest. And I wonder what the other "tragical mermaid song" was? |
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Subject: RE: Origins: George Collins: revisited From: Steve Gardham Date: 30 Jun 15 - 02:45 PM Well, that's at least 2 of us that think so. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: George Collins: revisited From: Lighter Date: 30 Jun 15 - 12:44 PM When I came upon Shenstone's version some thirty years ago, it seemed transparently like a burlesque to me too. It was even worse, because I expected a splendid early text with Lloyd's water sprite in it. Thirty years later, it's even more obviously a joke on ballad romance. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: George Collins: revisited From: Richie Date: 30 Jun 15 - 11:11 AM Steve, Since we don't have the name of the mermaid- it would be impossible to trace her :) There is a chance that real people's names can be used in a fantasy and possibly something could be uncovered related to the these names. You never know :) "George Collins" as sung by Miss Lisbeth Hayes, Fayetteville, Ark., June 12, 1920 has this 'marble stone' stanza: George Collins rode our the very next night, He rode out all alone, An' the first thing he saw when he got there Was fair Eleanor washin' a white marble stone. [From Randolph, Ozark Folksong, I, 1946, p. 139.] Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: George Collins: revisited From: Steve Gardham Date: 30 Jun 15 - 07:25 AM Okay then, so far the Breton seems to be the closest. Makes sense. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: George Collins: revisited From: Jim Brown Date: 30 Jun 15 - 03:27 AM > I'd like to see a French version. There are several mudcat threads on "Le Roi Renaud", including: thread.cfm?threadid=8862#210154 There seems to be nothing supernatural there. The king just comes back from war morally wounded. One point of contact with the Danish ballad is the attempt to conceal his death from his wife, who is in childbed. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: George Collins: revisited From: Jim Brown Date: 30 Jun 15 - 03:09 AM > I'll have a closer look at English translations of Sir Olave/Elveskud Jamieson's and Prior's are translations of Grundtvig's 47B, the text from Syv Peder's Kæmpe Viser. Jamieson was given a copy of Kæmpe Viser by Grimur Thorkelin in Copenhagen in 1805, when he on his way to take up a tutoring post in Riga, and did his Danish ballad translations from it. I don't know Danish either, but it looks as if his translation is pretty close to the original, line by line, except that he expands the one-line Danish refrain into two lines. (He also introduces an obscure English archaism "the hend" in the first line for the Danish word "hand", which -- so I was told by a Danish professor -- is just an old spelling of the pronoun "han" = "he", so it should just be "Sir Oluf he has ridden...") In that version, Her Oluf is out inviting guests to his wedding feast when he comes on some elves dancing. The elf king's daughter invites him to dance, offering him various gifts (buckskin boots with golden spurs, a silk shirt, a golden helmet), but he refuses and she curses him with sickness and pain. He rides home, tells his mother what has happened and dies. His mother and his bride die of grief. Clearly a related story to our ballad, but not very close. Apart from involving an elf princess in a group of dancing elves and not a solitary fresh-water mermaid, Her Oluf is presented as a much more innocent victim than Clerk Colvill. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: George Collins: revisited From: Steve Gardham Date: 29 Jun 15 - 04:17 PM Richie, We're looking at a very early European-wide ballad here, based on fairy lore. Why would we be looking for real persons? Okay so Thomas of Ercildoune might have been a real person many centuries ago but in this case it's extremely unlikely. You might as well try to find the real Goldilocks! Okay, the Scandinavian stream is a red herring. In European Folk Ballads, 1967, Eds. Seemann, Stromback and Jonsson (apologies for lack of twiddly bits above letters) the first ballad studied is our 'The Knight and the Elves'. According to a study carried out by Alfhild Forslin, there are 2 definite sub-divisions of the ballad, and it's difficult to say which influenced the other. One area is west Scandinavia in which a king or knight goes to Elfland and a fairy tries to entice Olaf to stay with them with a long list of gifts which he refuses so they put the death curse on him and he goes home, dies and his mother makes all sorts of excuses to his bride about him being out hunting. Finally she lifts a red cloth and sees his body then his bride and his mother die. The west Europe tradition includes Breton, French, Italian, Spanish, English and Scottish in which the fairy is definitely water-based. They give a Breton text which has the plant motif at the end albeit oak trees and turtle doves (Chinese influence?) They also give an Italian version which like Giles Collins only has the second half of the story. I'd like to see a French version. By the way I have a version in a book of German ballads but it's actually just a shortened Sir Olaf from Denmark. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: George Collins: revisited From: Richie Date: 29 Jun 15 - 04:15 PM Hi, My title, this is a version of Johnny Collins (see Bayard's article) and is not related to the ballad titled, Young Collins. From Folk Song from Newfoundland, also Karpeles MSS., No. 5135; text, p. 464 as found in Bronson No. 36. This is an important link with the Appalachian versions titled Johnny Collins and the 1906 Hampshire versions, titled George Collins. Notice in stanza 2 that the "mermaid," represented in human form as a pretty fair girl in stanza 1, dreams he is dead, [Young Collins] - Sung by Mrs. Mary Tibbs, Trinity, Newfoundland, September 13, 1929. 1. As I roved out one morning in May The meadows they were in full bloom A-watching the stone a pretty fair girl[1] A-watching[2] the marble stone. 2. She holloaed, she bollowed, she screamed with her might She wrung her slim hands to the stars, To the stars from heaven was twinkling down, And she dreamed Young Collins was dead. 3. Collins he went to his own father's door, Long hours before it was day: O rise, O rise, dear father, he cried, Rise and let me in. 4. His own true love came to the door, Whose corpse is this? she cried, It's the corpse of Young Collins, she said, An old true love of mine. 5. Bring in the corpse, she said, I'll tie it with ribbons so fine. I'll take the last from his clear cold lips Where ten thousand times he kissed mine. 6. [ . . .] Bring in the sheet [3] Till I fix it with linen so fine To-day it lies over Young Collins, she said, And tomorrow it will be over mine. 7. The news went out in old Dublin's town, And hung upon Dublin's gate. There's six pretty maids a' died that night, 'Twas all for Young Collins' sake. 8. If I shall die this very same night, I'd die, I hope and I will. Bring me under the old green tree, Where Young Collins' body did dwell. 1. This line is corrupt. This girl represents the mermaid in human form and ties to Child 42 2. usually "A-Washing" 3. Possibly missing "Open the coffin" at the beginning of the line. It makes sense that something is missing in this stanza- I've changed it from 3 lines to the standard 4 lines. Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: George Collins: revisited From: Richie Date: 29 Jun 15 - 02:40 PM Hi, I found a fragment of an English version titled: Lady Annis(Agnes) Is Agnes, which was written in parenthesis, the name implied by Annis? Is "Lady Annis" or Lady Agnes" a real person? I would assume that she would be alive anywhere from 1640-1740. Is there a George Collins/Giles Collins from this period? Since it's a fairly common name it may prove to be difficult. Or perhaps a Clerk Covill/Coville? Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: George Collins: revisited From: Steve Gardham Date: 29 Jun 15 - 02:39 PM Great stuff, Jim. If Giles Collins/Lady Annis is a burlesque of Clerk Colvill or even just derived from it, and if Clerk Colvill is a translation from the Danish we are realistically looking at a translation prior to say 1750. I'll have a closer look at English translations of Sir Olave/Elveskud. There are several. I have a Danish copy in Grundtvig which hopefully will be one of the English translations. I'll use 42A in Rieuwerts to compare. Most ballad writers/translaters generally didn't put in unnecessary material of their own (Peter Buchan excepted), they usually kept quite rigidly to the stories/legends/facts as they received them, e.g., Bruton Town fuller versions adhere very closely to the 17thc English Translation from the Decameron. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: George Collins: revisited From: Jim Brown Date: 29 Jun 15 - 11:30 AM > My impressions are that Child A and C are derived from B which is Herd and B is a translation from the German. I agree that 42A and 42B are so close that either one derives from the other or both derive at a fairly short remove from a common source. But I'm not sure that the direction of influence is necessarily from 42B to 42A. The original text of Child 42A, in William Tytler's Brown manuscript has: 11. Then out he drew his trusty blade, An' thought wi' it to be her dead; But she became a fish again, And merrily sprang into the fleed. "Dead" (= "death") is written with standard English spelling, but it should clearly be pronounced in Scots as "deid" (like the English word "deed" but with a shorter vowel), to rhyme with "fleed", which is the north-eastern pronunciation of "flood". In other words, whoever composed that verse, whether Anna Gordon or someone else, was thinking of the sound of the words as pronounced in the North East of Scotland. If not actually composed orally in performance as David Buchan would have argued, it at least looks to me like a version made to be sung. The equivalent in Herd's 1769 text, Child 42B is: 9. Out then he drew his shining blade, Thinking to stick her where she stood, But she was vanishd to a fish, And swam far off, a fair mermaid. Here we can imagine "stood" pronounced either in a southern Scots way with a vowel like French "eu" or in a northern way as "steed". (I don't know how Herd, from Kincardineshire, would have pronounced it, and anyway, we don't know where he got the ballad from.) Either way it doesn't rhyme with the last line ending in "mermaid", but it would if this last line were replaced by something ending in "flood" as in 42B. This makes me think that at least this stanza in 42B may represent a "corruption" from something more like 42A. Then there is verse 5 in 42B: 5 'Wash on, wash on, my bonny maid, That wash sae clean your sark of silk;' 'And weel fa you, fair gentleman, Your body whiter than the milk.' The last two lines are intelligible like this all right, but "weel fa you" (= well befall you) is to me suspiciously similar in sound to "it's a' for you" in 42A, as if one might represent a mis-hearing of the other. And if I have to choose, I would say the corresponding lines in 42A: "It's a' for you, ye gentle knight, My skin is whiter than the milk." make more sense in the context of the story, expressing the mermaid's seductive invitation to Clark Colven, to which he will recklessly respond in the "He's taen her by the milk-white hand" verse, which is missing from 42B, although something of this sort clearly should be there at the point where Child puts the line of asterisks. (I presume Albert Friedman had a similar thought, as he replaces the two lines in his text of 42B with these from 42A.) All a bit tentative, I admit, but here again, it looks to me as if Anna Gordon's 42A might well be truer than David Herd's 42B to the common source of them both. (Where that came from is another question...) |
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Subject: RE: Origins: George Collins: revisited From: Jim Brown Date: 29 Jun 15 - 11:18 AM > I don't think anyone knows for sure who did the bowdlerizing I now see that David Fowler (p. 301 note 15) quotes a manuscript comment by Kittredge, who attributed the inaccurate copying of "Willie's Lady" and the bowdlerizing of "Clark Colven" to William Fraser Tytler, which would mean that he (WFT) is the one who actually made the copy that was used by Child. Rieuwerts just describes it as belonging to him. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: George Collins: revisited From: Steve Gardham Date: 28 Jun 15 - 06:28 PM > translated from the German Yes, having read Child's headnotes more thoroughly it would seem more likely a Danish translation as in the original German poem there is no mention of the fairy being in water. The later Danish ballads 'Elveskud' were extremely popular and numerous. It would be an interesting exercise to look through the many Danish versions and try to pick out one that is closest to Shenstone's version. I have an abridged copy of Grundtvig. Alas I don't know Danish and can only use those already translated into English at a later stage. Jamieson was amongst the earliest of the well-known Danish translaters The Shenstone ballad could be a direct translation by a literary hand 'she found her spirits sink apace'. Hardly the language of tradition. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: George Collins: revisited From: Richie Date: 28 Jun 15 - 04:52 PM Hi, It seems clear to me that since Child 85 is titled for Giles Collins' lover, her name should be Lady Annis (two of Child's versions in Additions and Corrections appear with that name, although one is spelled, Annice). If Child had the Shenstone version, he would use the earliest name. Child 85: Lady Annis ! Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: George Collins: revisited From: Jim Brown Date: 28 Jun 15 - 04:31 PM Mine would be the same as yours except for the last lines of each verse: 3. "Oh hold your tongue, my gay lady, And don't deafen me with your din, For I never saw a fair woman, Whose body I couldn't (or perhaps "didn't") sin with." (Or, translated more freely, "For every time I see a fair woman, I sin with her body.") 6. He's taken her by the milk-white hand, And likewise by the grass green sleeve, And laid her down upon the green, Without asking leave (= permission) from his lady. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: George Collins: revisited From: Richie Date: 28 Jun 15 - 04:16 PM Steve - the asterisks were inserted to show a break between parts. I'm sure he didn't have the original. Jim has pointed out the main differences. I assume the two stanzas are translated: 3. "O, hold your tongue, my gay lady And don't deafen me with your din [noise], For I never saw a fair woman, But with her body I couldn't sin." 6. He's taken her by the milk-white hand, And likewise by the grass-green sleeve, And laid her down upon the green, Nor did his Lady ask him to leave. Is there a better translation? Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: George Collins: revisited From: Jim Brown Date: 28 Jun 15 - 04:11 PM > translated from the German Why German in particular? Wouldn't an adaptation from a Scandinavian ballad be more likely? |
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Subject: RE: Origins: George Collins: revisited From: Jim Brown Date: 28 Jun 15 - 04:06 PM > the full text of Giles Collins from William Shenstone's "Miscellany" (1759-63) Thanks for this, Richie. I was wondering if the rest of the text could be found anywhere and how it would compare to more recent ones. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: George Collins: revisited From: Jim Brown Date: 28 Jun 15 - 04:01 PM Hi Steve, I don't think anyone knows for sure who did the bowdlerizing. All I know is what Rieuwerts says about the manuscripts (yes, an excellent book!). Basically, Mary Fraser Tytler found texts of "Willie's Lady" and "Clark Colven" in Aldourie Castle 1881 in a manuscript that had belonged to William Fraser Tytler (1777-1853). Apparently she sent copies of these to Child in good faith, assuming, as he did, that they were accurate transcriptions of the ballads in the then lost manuscript made from Anna Gordon's singing for William Tytler (1711-92). From Mary Ellen Brown's "Child's Unfinished Masterpiece" (p. 119), I understand that William Fraser Tytler was the grandson of William Tytler and the son of Alexander Fraser Tytler (1747-1813) (for whom Anna Gordon, by then Mrs Brown of Falkland, made her third manuscript of ballads in 1800). The original manuscript finally turned up in Aldourie Castle in the 1930s, bound in a volume with some other papers. In the meantime a copy made by Joseph Ritson had also been rediscovered, but that also came too late for Child. In fact the offending stanzas had actually been published, slightly altered, in Matthew Lewis's "Tales of Wonder" in 1801. Child mentions a manuscript copy at Abbotsford which he thought was a combination of Anna Gordon's version, Herd's and Lewis's, but I wonder if it was actually an accurate copy of Anna Gordon's unbowdlerized text. I don't think the asterisks indicate that Child knew someone had tampered with the text in the process of copying it from the original manuscript. I think they just mean he could tell that something had been omitted from the story at some stage in its transmission. He does the same, at the same point in the narrative, in 42B, where there is nothing in the layout of the text in Herd's book to indicate a break. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: George Collins: revisited From: Richie Date: 28 Jun 15 - 03:20 PM Hi, This apparently (using google books- there could be an additional stanza after the 4th) is the full text of Giles Collins from William Shenstone's "Miscellany" (1759-63): 1. Giles Collin came home unto his mother, O Mother come bind my head For before eight o'clock in the morning O Mother, I shall be dead. 2. And if that I should dye, dear Mother! As I foresee I shall I will not be buried in the churchyard Save near Lady Annis's wall. 3. Lady Annis was sitting in her own bow'r And mending of her night-coif When lo there appeared as fair a cor[p]se As ever she saw in her life. 4. She dropped her needle to the ground When she this cor[p]se did spy She found her spirits sink apace And sigh'd- she knew not why 5. Lady Annis then view'd the young man's face She ey'd it o'er & o'er Then fell she upon his clay-cold breast And word spake never no more 6. Giles Collin's was buried in the west, Lady Annis's grave was east; There sprung up a Lily from Giles Collins heart That reached Lady Annis's breast. 7. The butcherly Parson of the place, He cut this Lily in twain; There never was known such a Parson before Nor will, such a Lily again. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: George Collins: revisited From: Steve Gardham Date: 28 Jun 15 - 03:06 PM I'd be very happy to go along with anything David Fowler suggests. When I suggested the Herd version was translated from the German I didn't mean by Herd himself. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: George Collins: revisited From: Jim Brown Date: 28 Jun 15 - 01:50 PM I've just come across this in David C. Fowler's "A Literary History of the Popular Ballad", quoting the first stanza of a version in William Shenstone's "Miscellany" (1759-63): Giles Collin came home unto his mother, O Mother come bind my head For before eight o'clock in the morning O Mother, I shall be dead. Fowler argues that this opening suggests that "Giles Collin" is a continuation of "Clerk Colvill", which must therefore have been in existence in some form at least six years before it appeared in David Herd's book in 1769, but he continues: "A date much earlier than this, however, seems precluded by the pseudo-archaic and imitative style of the ballad as we know it." |
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Subject: RE: Origins: George Collins: revisited From: Steve Gardham Date: 28 Jun 15 - 01:39 PM Hi Jim, Who do you suppose was responsible for the bowdlerisation? the insertion of asterisks would suggest that Child was aware of the bowdlerisation. As far as Mrs Brown's Mss are concerned I can thoroughly recommend Rieuwerts, if you don't already have it. It runs all 5 mss side by side for comparison, with nowt taken owt! |
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Subject: RE: Origins: George Collins: revisited From: Jim Brown Date: 28 Jun 15 - 01:03 PM > meeting the (mer)maid by the well or stream, some series of interactions with her... I don't suppose the lines of asterisks that appear at this point in all three of Child's texts need any explaining, but it perhaps worth mentioning here that Child 42A is actually a bowdlerized version of what Anna Gordon sang. The original Tytler Brown MS was lost in Child's day (it turned up again in the 1930s), and all he had to go on was a copy in which anything sexually explicit had been changed. The main changes were to verse 3, which in the manuscript is actually more like its counterpart in 42B: "O had your tongue my gay Lady, An' dinna deave me wi' your din, For I saw never a fair woman But wi' her body I cou'd sin." and verse 6: He's taen her by the milk-white hand, And likewise by the grass-green sleeve, An' laid her down upon the green, Nor of his Lady speer'd he leave. Albert Friedman borrowed this verse from the Tytler Brown MS to fill in the gap in the story in 42B in "The Viking Book of Folk Ballads of the English-Speaking World". The correct text of 42A is given in full by Bronson, and more recently by Sigrid Rieuwerts in "The Ballad Repertoire of Anna Gordon, Mrs Brown of Falkland". |
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Subject: RE: Origins: George Collins: revisited From: Steve Gardham Date: 28 Jun 15 - 10:14 AM BL G308 Vol III, 1790 Giles Collins. In a crying style, as sung by Mr. Needham. Giles Collins he came to his own Fathers Gate, Where he so oft had been a And who should come down but his own dear Mother For to let Giles Collins in a Oh, for to let Giles Collins in a. Giles Collins he said to his own dear Mother, Oh! Mother come bind up my head'en And send for the Parson of our Parish, For tomorrow I shall be dead en Oh for tomorrow I shall be dead en. Lady Annis was sat in her green Bower. And a dressing of her night coif en, And there she beheld and as fine an a corpse, As ever she saw in her life en. Oh as ever she saw in her life en. What bear ye these ye Six tall men, And a top of your shoulders, We bear the body of Giles Collins, An old true lover of yours. Oh an old true lover of yours. Settin down, settin down, Lady Annis she said, On the grass that grows so green, For to morrow morn by ten o' clock, Oh my body shall lie by his'n, Oh my body shall lie by his'n. Giles Collins was laid in the East Church Yard, lady Annis was laid in the West en There sprung a Lilly from Giles Collins. Which touch'd Lady Annis's breast en, Oh which touch'd Lady Annis's breast en. Now curse'n the Parson of our Parish, For cutting this Lilly in twain, For ne'er was sawn such a pair of true Lovers No or e'er will be sawn such again. No or e'er will be sawn such again. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: George Collins: revisited From: Steve Gardham Date: 28 Jun 15 - 09:57 AM Clerk Colvill. Not very impressed by this either. My impressions are that Child A and C are derived from B which is Herd and B is a translation from the German. This then presents us with possibilities, both the Johnny Collins and various burlesques are based on Herd. All of this is conjecture of course, as is much of what else is speculated on this thread. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: George Collins: revisited From: Steve Gardham Date: 28 Jun 15 - 09:50 AM Looking at all of those separate elements in the story most, if not all, are ballad commonplaces. Very little is unique to this ballad. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: George Collins: revisited From: Richie Date: 28 Jun 15 - 08:36 AM Steve, I agree that George Collins, by itself, is/was considered a burlesque and a nursery song- a ditty sung by children- and is compared to Lord Lovell. When we consider adding Clerk Covill and then Johnny Collins it becomes an ancient ballad that tells a story of love, remorse, murder and the death of two principle characters. Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: George Collins: revisited From: Richard Mellish Date: 28 Jun 15 - 07:01 AM I am beginning to think that this particular ballad or family of ballads would be better classified in the way that folk tales are classified, by the mix-and-match combinations of elements, rather than as discrete items under the two Child numbers or the one Roud number. Not counting elements that are in any of the Continental versions but absent from all the English-language ones, the elements are: the girlfriend/wife's warning to keep clear of the (mer)maid meeting the (mer)maid by the well or stream some series of interactions with her, including the headache and binding of his head return home requests to make his bed etc death girlfriend sees coffin or corpse coming and asks who it is girlfriend dies. Child 42, Child 85, George/Johnny Collins have various combinations of these elements. They could have been created as separate self-standing stories, drawing on various combinations of these elements. OR they could all derive from an "original" English-language version (possibly from Orkney, Shetland, mainland Scotland or Ireland). The last two might have been present at that stage or they might have been missing (as they are from Child 42) and tacked on later, being borrowed from other ballads, along with the plants-growing-from-graves element. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: George Collins: revisited From: Steve Gardham Date: 28 Jun 15 - 04:34 AM The similaritieS with Lord Lovel are obvious and don't need attributing to anyone. Other scholars do mention the burlesque aspect. Perhaps the ones you quote were not aware of or priorotising this aspect. The only recent one is David's. Prior to WWII most ballad scholars had little knowledge of the comic ballad genre. I thought I'd sent you a copy of the Needham version. I'll post the words here later today. Rather than burlesque I'd say the added 'en' like the added 'a' is an affectation of the 17th century and is sometimes added to make the song look older or more exotic. That doesn't mean this version comes from the 17thc. 'John Dory' which is old springs to mind. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: George Collins: revisited From: Richie Date: 27 Jun 15 - 07:30 PM Although Child remarked that "this little ballad is a sort of counterpart to 'Lord Lovel'" in his headnotes. Q: Guess who he got it from?? A: Robert Bell |
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Subject: RE: Origins: George Collins: revisited From: Richie Date: 27 Jun 15 - 07:01 PM Steve, I assume the text you quote is from Mr Needham prior to 1790. Do you have more? The "en" added smacks of a burlesque. Burlesque, however, is not mentioned in the four articles: (1) George Collins- Barbara M. Cra'ster 1910; (2) The "Johnny Collins" Version of Lady Alice- Bayard; (3) The "Clerk Colvill" Mermaid- Harbison Parker 1947 and (4) "George Collins" in Hampshire - David Atkinson. Nor is is associated with Clerk Covill. However, it was been compared to Lord Lovell by Child and others-- perhaps because of the same form of the 1810 version. Or, perhaps because it has been used frequently as a parody. It was Atkinson who mentioned the bit about not knowing the original. So where is this ancient ballad? Or do we need to bring in the tall (pall) bearers? And what about the 6 maids? Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: George Collins: revisited From: Steve Gardham Date: 27 Jun 15 - 05:52 PM But a burlesque can be original. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: George Collins: revisited From: Richie Date: 27 Jun 15 - 05:45 PM :) despite a lot of verbolic hyperbole that says almost nothing, the critic does supply four stanzas and an ending. It's hard to have a parody if you don't know what the original is :) Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: George Collins: revisited From: Steve Gardham Date: 27 Jun 15 - 05:43 PM The text quoted above which predates 1799 is remarkably close to the burlesque sung by Mr Needham prior to 1790. I read the ridiculous nose-mouth episode as an attempt to avoid mentioning the word 'breast' in the earlier version. Giles Collins was laid in the East Church Yard, Lady Annis was laid in the West en, There sprung a Lilly from Giles Collins, Which touch'd Lady Annis's breast en Oh, which touch'd Lady Annis's breast en. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: George Collins: revisited From: Steve Gardham Date: 27 Jun 15 - 05:23 PM Richie, Have you ever come across any of Marryatt Edgar's monologues? The style is remarkably similar. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: George Collins: revisited From: Steve Gardham Date: 27 Jun 15 - 05:06 PM I think he was taking the piss! |
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