BS: Guns in the USA

Subject: BS: Guns in the USA
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Jun 15 - 08:09 AM

On another thread Joe Offer, seemingly a very rational man, gave some figures on gun ownership in the USA.

"While I don't like the popularity of personal handguns in the US, I don't think they are as universally present as one might think. One Website says:The report revealed that 11.1 million Americans hold concealed carry permits (in 2014) up from an estimated 4.6 million in 2007.
Three states (South Dakota, Indiana, and Alabama) now have over 10 percent of their adult populations with permits, and 10 states have at least 8 percent of their adult populations with permits.

I think Joe is being a little disingenuous and perhaps trying to indicate that gun ownership is not as widespread as we in the UK perceive it. He quotes "concealed carry permits" which is not quite the same as gun licences. According to one survey (Gallup 2011)some 47% of Americans report they have a gun at home or on their premises. Therefor something like 147,000,000 people have SOME access to a gun.

Is it any wonder then that gun crime and the terrible massacres that occur are as frequent as they are.

Please discuss

Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Jun 15 - 08:11 AM

Gun Ownership USA 2011

Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jun 15 - 08:19 AM

Happiness is a warm gun!

Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Jun 15 - 08:24 AM

I think Joe was responding to a specific point, namely the likelihood of the person behind you in a supermarket queue (at the "till" not "checkout") having a firearm on their person. But he overlooked the number of people with guns but no "carry permits" and indeed the number of covert guns.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Jun 15 - 08:38 AM

If a person keeps a gun in their home or at their business, I'm not all that concerned. It's their property, and it's my choice to go to their home or business. Their having a gun makes me nervous, but I think it would be impossible to enact legislation in the US that would prohibit people from keeping a gun at home or a business they own.

"Open carry" of weapons is very rare in the U.S., but it is allowed in some places. It used to be that it was rare for Americans to have a permit to carry a concealed weapon wherever they go. It's only been in recent years that the courts have forced governments to give out concealed weapons permits more freely. The US population is 318.9 million. If 11 million have concealed weapons permits, that's not a huge percentage - but it's a number that grows every year, and that makes me nervous.

Don't know about "covert guns." I suppose there are some, but I don't think most people bother to go around the licensing requirements. I don't like the fact that Americans have guns, and it surprises me that 43% of Americans are gun owners - but I don't think that's where the problem lies. When people arm themselves to go out in public, that is frightening to me, and I consider it to be a threat to my right to personal safety.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Jun 15 - 08:54 AM

Hi Joe, I realise there are huge differences in the governance of the USA and the UK. In recent years we have suffered 3 mass killings one in Hungerford 1987 resulted in 16 deaths. The second in Dunblane, Scotland in 1996 resulted in 17 deaths 16 of whom were children. The third in Cumbria resulted in 13 deaths, including the gunman.

The UK government reacted almost immediately (by government standards) and in 1997 introduced an almost absolute ban on private possession of handguns.

Needless to say there was an outcry by the gun lobby but the majority of the population quietly acceptable the law. 162,000 weapons were handed in by 57,000 people about 1% of the population.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA
From: artbrooks
Date: 23 Jun 15 - 09:07 AM

Except in some local jurisdictions, people rather than guns are licensed in the US, so the term 'gun license' is generally meaningless. Long guns (rifles and shotguns) and handguns not carried concealed are usually not subject to any government controls, although a license (issued by an entity such as the Dept. of Fish and Game) is usually required to hunt and there are safety rules some places. "Access to a gun' probably means the .22 bolt-action in the closet much more often than it means the 9mm pistol in the drawer next to the bed. It is important to remember that, under our governmental system, this is one of the things left to the states to regulate, so there is no national gun policy.

Most people (like me) own no guns, but some own several and a small minority own a large number. A very small number, although I guess that I should say a small percentage of our very large population, carry a handgun regularly, either for personal protection or to prove a point. IMHO, the former are more dangerous than whatever they are protecting themselves from and the latter are jerks, but that's only my opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Jun 15 - 09:14 AM

Raggytash, most civilized countries react to mass killings by insisting on stricter gun controls. The US reacts by buying more guns. Can't say I'm proud of that - but I am very proud of the fact that I will never own a gun or allow one in my house.

It really scares me that there has been a huge increase in U.S. gun purchases since the election of Barack Obama. Some that they buy guns because they fear the government will soon prohibit guns.

There are many people in my area who openly admit that they buy guns to protect themselves from the government.

That really scares me.

---

Our local newspaper reported recently that four cars at a local car dealership were damaged by gunshots. In the newspaper's online forum I said it seemed to be a sign that there were too many people with too many guns. Several people responded angrily that this county is a place where guns are treasured - and if I didn't like it, I should move. I got a strong message that if I speak against guns in this county, I'm taking a big risk.

That scares me, too.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA
From: Will Fly
Date: 23 Jun 15 - 09:31 AM

'Access to a gun' probably means the .22 bolt-action in the closet much more often than it means the 9mm pistol in the drawer next to the bed.

Sadly, that's very true. My nephew in Tucson battled with bipolarity all his life, only keeping himself able to survive mentality with drugs which he discovered for himself on the internet. He tried on two or three occasions to take his own life with overdosing on pills, but my sister (his mother) caught him each time and saved him.

Unfortunately, she'd forgotten about the .22 bolt action in the closet - coming home after work one afternoon to find he'd shot himself with it. He was 32 years of age. He may, of course, have eventually done the deed some other way - but the rifle worked only too well the very first time...

Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Jun 15 - 09:46 AM

Spent some time in Mountain View, Arkansas, which is a wonderful place for music, albeit in a dry county! I did find it very weird that the road signs round about were full of bullet holes. Apparently what passes for fun amongst the youth of Arkansas is to drive round in pickups, drinking illegal beer and shooting at road signs. And in my youth we thought it was dangerous playing knifey!

Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Jun 15 - 11:10 AM

There are many people in my area who openly admit that they buy guns to protect themselves from the government.

That really scares me.

Which scares you more, Joe? The guns, or the colossal stupidity?

Beware of stupid people with guns.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jun 15 - 11:13 AM

"Beware of stupid people with guns."
And of Greeks bearing gifts!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA
From: GUEST,#
Date: 23 Jun 15 - 11:20 AM

Beware the person with nothing to lose.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Jun 15 - 11:33 AM

What about Greeks bearing guns?

Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Jun 15 - 11:40 AM

Because of the very different history of the USA and the UK.... plus the geography and demography... we have always had guns as part of daily life for many people. At one time... or more precisely, for many years, it even made sense to have guns available to conquer the wilderness and the "fierce natives" (tongue in cheek)... and to defend the very idea of having a USA at all when King George was was trying to say we should remain a colony.
   Then came our sad Civil War, to determine whether "any country so conceived and so dedicated should long endure". By the time the Civil War ended, keeping guns... "just in case" was a common theme, and maybe even still made some sense.... but the technology kept increasing as the urbanization also increased, and the 'country folk' who moved to the cities to find work carried with them, for various reasons, the idea of owning guns.

.... So.. with so many having the idea that they 'ought' to have guns, the firearms industry found all sorts of reasons to support the idea..(big surprise?)...they used that one vague phrase in the 2nd Amendment to apply 18th century reasoning to 20th century conditions and now we have an entire organization, the NRA, existing primarily to protect a 'right' that never should have existed beyond about 1895.

What we have is a situation where FAR too many own guns... with a significant number of them willing to use their guns to avoid those guns being "taken away".... and others seeing guns as a means of settling arguments or committing crimes. With many millions of guns available, almost anyone can get them... legally, if they have not committed a felony--yet-- and illegally if the have a few dollars.

Thus, the very fact of 'bad guys having guns' leads to the stupid idea that "good guys" NEED them for protection, even as statistics show how seldom that works out.

So... you folk in the UK see the horrendous news stories and quite rightly wonder why we 'permit' such conditions... for the answer, re-read the above. Many of us despise the situation, but the solution is NOT... I repeat... NOT just a **simple** matter of passing laws and/or amending the Constitution. That is what it would take, but changing the mindsets necessary is as hard as rooting out prejudice & bigotry.... and IF such laws & amendments were passed, there would still be millions of firearms and stockpiles of weapons hidden away.

   The process is daunting. That doesn't mean I...or Joe Offer... or millions of others... have given up. We just see what we are up against.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA
From: gnu
Date: 23 Jun 15 - 11:48 AM

The Canuck government (not for long) just passed law that strips the RCMP of the authority to reclassify restricted (special permit; transport only along a specified route to and from a certified range; others) firearms as prohibited - turn em in NOW! This is now under cabinet authority. Really? I dare say Cabinet, indeed most of our politicians, don't own or know much about guns... don't need em... the bastards steal legally.

It's a sad day when Canada, who had, with a few exceptions, good and progressive gun control laws, takes a step backward. The figure of 6M guns was bandied about some years ago but I always 'felt' it was far more.

I should add that the cost of our Gun Registry, as of 2004, was over $2B. A few years ago, our government (see above) abolished the registry and ordered all records destroyed. This was done except in Quebec. There is a huge flap going on now about the destruction but I'll spare you the details except to say that somebody broke the law and the government wants to retroactively legislate that they cannot be held accountable... I await the outcome with bated breath.

If memory serves me correctly, I think there have been gun threads on Mudcat before. I recall that I posted something like, "See you in another thousand posts" in several of them. >;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA
From: GUEST,Olddude
Date: 23 Jun 15 - 11:58 AM

The laws here all vary from state to state, it would be good if we had one consistent federal
Law. I ddon't ssuspect that will happen anytime soon.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA
From: GUEST,#
Date: 23 Jun 15 - 01:06 PM

". . . the government wants to retroactively legislate that they cannot be held accountable... I await the outcome with bated breath."

Suzanne Legault pulled them up by their short and curlies, and the hardrive was turned over by Blaney and the RCMP this morning thus obeying an order from the Federal Court. FYI

PS This particular piece of legerdemain is hidden away in Bill C-59 which is a budget bill. Yeah, right.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA
From: Ebbie
Date: 23 Jun 15 - 04:53 PM

I hail from a very large family: 9 bio offspring plus 2 adopted ones.

Four of us were/are male.
I know that two of my brothers have rifles, a .22, a 30.30 and a 30.06, not for 'protection' but from nostalgia. My father had a .22 when I was growing up which we used for target practice. None of us has handguns. I remember that at one time when my oldest brother was 20 or so he had one that he used to shoot rats in our chicken house. (To my knowledge he never hit one.)

All of my brothers have hunted game at one time or another. None of them has done so in the last 30 years.

I don't know what that does to American statistics but I'm pretty sure that our family is not alone.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jun 15 - 05:02 PM

What if Bernie Sanders were elected president? Would that bring out all the gun nuts in an armed insurrection to overthrow the government? And would the government be able to defend itself against them?

Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jun 15 - 05:13 PM

Bernie is the senator from Vermont, Vermont has virtually no gun laws and it also has the lowest rate of gun murders in the states.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA
From: Mrrzy
Date: 23 Jun 15 - 05:39 PM

I don't think the issue is the guns, although they don't help. I think the issue is over-entitlement, with the notion that harming another person is an appropriate way to remove them from the way of your entitlement.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jun 15 - 06:19 PM

It seems a bit wacky to me that this can be discussed without mentioning the NRA, which is powerful, influential, wealthy and all too ready to undermine democracy in order to maintain the maximum amount of freedom to own guns, unfettered. Whether it's a kind of sickness in the US that such powerful and undemocratic lobby groups such as the NRA and AIPAC can hold such sway, or whether it's just that your citizens are kept deliberately uneducated or miseducated (hi, Fox) about politics, it's bloody scary, and the US reaps the consequences at ever more frequent intervals.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA
From: Nick
Date: 23 Jun 15 - 07:01 PM

You couldn't make it up - NRA response

Truly bonkers

Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Jun 15 - 07:02 PM

When I was a kid, the NRA (National Rifle Association) was a moderate group that taught hunter safety and responsible gun ownership. It even supported many gun control laws.

Over the last 20 years, the NRA became radicalized, and now resists any restrictions on gun ownership whatsoever. Its magazines are full of enticing photos of assault rifles - that aren't meant for hunting game.

The most blatantly offensive U.S. gun manufacturer is Bushmaster. I suspect the company has made big money being known as the gun used in the Sandy Hook murders in Connecticut.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA
From: gnu
Date: 23 Jun 15 - 07:26 PM

#... "PS This particular piece of legerdemain is hidden away in Bill C-59 which is a budget bill. Yeah, right."

Many may not know what that means. It means that, if a 'government' has a majority, when the leader of the opposition calls for an end to debate on a budget bill, the bill is passed, including all the 'omnibus' bullshit in it which has only recently been done under the present government... "just like in The States". It is, some say, a treacherous and treasonous subversion of our parliamentary system. Crime Minister Harper was the first to use this abhorrent perversion of Parliament and, hopefully, he will be the last.

ORANGE I SAY! ORANGE!

What would Tommy do? The Greatest Canadian for good reason.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Jun 15 - 07:27 PM

The NRA is 75% driven by money and 75% by macho egos... (yes, I can do math).

Firms like Bushmaster need steady sales. Food stores and diaper manufacturers have a natural recurring business model... gun manufacturers have to invent one. The NRA has become the shill for the product.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 23 Jun 15 - 07:42 PM

hello steve shaw and others. a while ago you and others recommended the gaughan forum to me as an alternative to all the hideousness on mudcat. i've done a bit on there as have others. why not more? it's a much more civilised and socialist place.....see you there, pete

Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA
From: Rapparee
Date: 23 Jun 15 - 09:43 PM

When the numbers of people who own firearms in the US is bandied about it should be recognized that if I (for example) own 10 guns, there are others who own none. This makes the total number of owned firearms (an estimate, of course) per 100,000 population (and similar comparisons) a bit questionable. For instance, if a figure of 88.1 guns owned per 100 people is used it does not take into account that some will own more than one gun and other will own none at all.

The University of Sidney (Australia) runs an interesting website regarding guns in 178 countries. It seems straight forward.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Jun 15 - 10:28 PM

The 43% number, is people who live in a house where there is at least one firearm. I wonder how many households in the US have TEN firearms. Maybe I would't like to know.

I live in a rural area, an area where there are animals known to have rabies (especially raccoons). If there were an animal in my yard that was acting strangely, I admit that I'd like to be able to shoot it - and if I saw such a thing, I'd probably go out and buy a gun. So far, I haven't.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Jun 15 - 10:35 PM

The University of Sidney site is the most comprehensive one I have ever seen. If they are even close to accurate, the numbers are sobering... if they don't drive you to drink.

Just the raw numbers relating to the US are jaw dropping. I will need to do some comparisons to get a true idea of relative stats compared to other countries, but it ain't pretty.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA
From: Rapparee
Date: 24 Jun 15 - 06:50 AM

The number of small arms in civilian hands, worldwide, is staggering. Even if the UN treaty regarding small arms were to be approved by all members (it won't, and not just because of the US) there would continue to be a fantastic number of small arms in civilian hands.

A lady on the bus during my recent visit to Ireland told me that she was Canadian, "...and Canada has the highest per-capita number of guns in the world." Then she showed my a picture of herself at a shooting range using a military type of rifle with an underslung grenade launcher attached.

That is most assuredly not a hunting or target weapon! (It won't stop me from visiting Canada, however.)

Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Jun 15 - 08:07 AM

Tally of Attacks in U.S. Challenges Perceptions of Top Terror Threat
By SCOTT SHANE      JUNE 24, 2015

WASHINGTON — In the 14 years since Al Qaeda carried out attacks on New York and the Pentagon, extremists have regularly executed smaller lethal assaults in the United States, explaining their motives in online manifestoes or social media rants.

But the breakdown of extremist ideologies behind those attacks may come as a surprise. Since Sept. 11, 2001, nearly twice as many people have been killed by white supremacists, antigovernment fanatics and other non-Muslim extremists than by radical Muslims: 48 have been killed by extremists who are not Muslim, compared with 26 by self-proclaimed jihadists, according to a count by New America, a Washington research center.

The slaying of nine African-Americans in a Charleston, S.C., church last week, with an avowed white supremacist charged with their murders, was a particularly savage case. But it is only the latest in a string of lethal attacks by people espousing racial hatred, hostility to government and theories such as those of the "sovereign citizen" movement, which denies the legitimacy of most statutory law. The assaults have taken the lives of police officers, members of racial or religious minorities and random civilians.

Non-Muslim extremists have carried out 19 such attacks since Sept. 11, according to the latest count, compiled by David Sterman, a New America program associate, and overseen by Peter Bergen, a terrorism expert. By comparison, seven lethal attacks by Islamic militants have taken place in the same period.

If such numbers are new to the public, they are familiar to police officers. A survey to be published this week asked 382 police and sheriff's departments nationwide to rank the three biggest threats from violent extremism in their jurisdiction. About 74 percent listed antigovernment violence, while 39 percent listed "Al Qaeda-inspired" violence, according to the researchers, Charles Kurzman of the University of North Carolina and David Schanzer of Duke University.

Article Here

Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA
From: Lighter
Date: 24 Jun 15 - 08:47 AM

After the Newtown massacre, Congress proved itself unwilling to pass more restrictive gun legislation.

Until it does that much (and it may), proposals to eliminate guns, repeal Amendments, or shut down the manufacture of arms for private individuals seems to me to be quite beside the point.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 24 Jun 15 - 10:57 AM

Canada ? That's a joke, right Rap ?

Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Jun 15 - 11:12 AM

According to the website posted above, Canada does not publish any figures to accurately make any comparison about per capita gun ownership.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA
From: Rapparee
Date: 24 Jun 15 - 12:47 PM

Nope, no joke. That's what she said, and I was in no position to disagree regardless of my personal feelings. I do suspect that there were a number of people in Canada who did not follow the lawful way, just as there would be those in the US who would not.

There are so many firearms around that I don't think anyone has any handle on the actual number. The Luger in great-grandpa's duffel bag from WW2, that Mauser brought home from WWI, the SKS unk brounght back from Malaya or 'Nam, that .455 Webley the gamekeeper had on the Estate, the H&H double rifle, the '73 Colt SAA in the collection, the AK-47s buried when the government forces over ran the rebels back in '72, the PPSh-42 brought back from Korea...who knows? That's just small arms. There are those who deal in bigger weapons as well and yes, you can get them or even make them yourself. The Filipino guerrillas, during the Japanese occupation made their own guns, as have many criminal gangs and frankly, it's not that hard to make a usable mortar.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA
From: Lighter
Date: 24 Jun 15 - 04:18 PM

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/wp/2015/06/23/manchin-toomey-both-interested-in-reviving-gun-control-push/

Sounds good until you realize all they're promising is trying to come up with something that might work.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA
From: GUEST,#
Date: 24 Jun 15 - 05:11 PM

Gun ownership figures are easily available in Canada. Read the following link.

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/more-guns-in-canada-this-year-but-fewer-owners-rcmp

Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA
From: TheSnail
Date: 24 Jun 15 - 06:00 PM

You might enjoy this -
Jim Jefferies
but then again, you might not.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Jun 15 - 06:48 PM

Query: when was the last time in Canada that some jackass with a gun blew away a congregation in a Black church?

Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jun 15 - 07:01 PM

"Tally of Attacks in U.S. Challenges Perceptions of Top Terror Threat"

Intensive surveillance is proving effective and most Islamist inspired terror plots are being nipped in the bud......thank goodness.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jun 15 - 07:49 PM

"Query: when was the last time in Canada that some jackass with a gun blew away a congregation in a Black church?"

No black church congregationists but a couple of armed forces personnel murdered by Islamist inspired terrorists.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA
From: GUEST,#
Date: 24 Jun 15 - 08:45 PM

They do happen here in Canada, but with nowhere near the frequency they do in the US. We tend to see people who do that as mental health cases (although sometimes it's business as with sprees between gangs such as Quebec's Rock Machine and the Hell's Angels or various groups who try to control things on the darker side of life) and most Canadans just don't buy into the 'it's terrorism' nomenclature. Our government is doing its best to change that, but mostly we aren't latching onto it as a term or an explanation.

Happened:   http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/edmonton-mass-murder-victims-identified-all-died-of-gunshot-wounds-1.2888437

Foiled:    http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/murderous-misfits-or-something-else-halifax-mass-killing-plot-relights-thorny-task-of-defining-terrorism

Happened:       https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89cole_Polytechnique_massacre

Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA
From: GUEST,#
Date: 24 Jun 15 - 08:49 PM

'Berserkers' are becoming a problem, but their motivations seem to be somewhere on an ideological line. The Parliament Hill attack is an example.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA
From: Rapparee
Date: 24 Jun 15 - 10:15 PM

I honestly don't know about Canadian gun ownership. I do know that the last time I drove up there Canadian Customs asked me if I had a weapon in the car and I said, "No, do I need one?" They laughed and I entered Canada with a small sheath knife (about a 3 inch blade) that I'd forgotten I had along. The last time I was in Canada I had a pocketknife* with me.

Please don't report me to the RCMP.


*Victorinox Swiss Army, without a corkscrew but with tweezers and a toothpick.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA
From: Ebbie
Date: 24 Jun 15 - 11:21 PM

When I came into Canada - long before 9/11 - and was asked that question I told them that I had a hunting knife in the cubby, that my brothers had insisted that I take it. I asked him if he wanted to see it and he said, yes.

It was an old rusty knife still in its sheathe and the guy laughed and told me to keep it.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA
From: GUEST,Cookie wherefore art thou?
Date: 25 Jun 15 - 04:22 AM

I think I mentioned once on another thread but I thought it funny so will repeat it.

Once, when in Vancouver (skiing at Whistler) I saw an excellent T shirt.

Canadian {noun}. Unarmed American with healthcare.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Jun 15 - 09:55 PM

If you've lost yours, I have all sorts of yummy cookies.
[e-mail]

Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Jun 15 - 11:51 PM

E.J. Dionne has a good article in U.S. newspapers this week. He says,m "We need to insist on protecting the rights of Americans who do not want to be anywhere near guns."
He concludes:

The nation could ring out with the new slogans of liberty: "Not in my house." "Not in our school." "Not in my bar." "Not in our church." We'd be defending one of our most sacred rights: the right not to bear arms.

I should be able to feel safe walking the mountain trails near my home, but twice hunters and target shooters have shot many rounds in my direction. We rarely have bears in the area and they've never been a nuisance - why did the guy next door have to kill two of them, and how did he shoot them without his bullets going onto my property? And those two frightened people who greeted me with rifles after I called and made an appointment to interview them on a government investigation - did those guns ever really do them any good?

Yeah, I think I have a right to be free of the fear of being shot by nice, law-abiding people with guns.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: A Champion of Guns in the USA
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Jun 15 - 12:33 AM

Your Champion for more guns in America could be Trump, the Donald.

I can't say enough good things about the man, the legend and the leader. In fact I can't think of a single thing.

I think Trump is a great spokesman for the fallicies and fraud of most gun arguments by putting believable words in his mouth.
Mostly I make fun of the man who would buy America.

In 3 years a hundred thousand people are not alive to offer their opinion on guns or the freedom from guns.

Nonsense posters and claims of a fictional trump quotes no matter how outrageous would certainly be believed. All quotes would be attributed in small print to "Citizens United for Unified Unitedness".

I say killem with kindness. I'm sure you could come up with some Trumpisms/Foxisms that would appear to support his candidacy.
No lie would be unbelievable if it came from Trump, so why not kill two birds with one stone.

What would a domain name for Donald sound like? Trumpissimo
Amazing Trump, Trump for zerP, Trump Unchained. Trumo for president.
Hair brained

Outrageous quotes of your/his remarks about women might still raise eyebrows. His remarks about Hispanics already raised a few cockles.
The self serving NRA has not done any favors for anybody in a long time. 20 years they totally changed.
Here are some fictional claims linking Trump with the NRA. to DT


"The fifth branch of the Military is the NRA at home." The Donald

"The NRA is more powerful than all our governors put together." Trumo

"The NRA has 3 black employees , therefore they are not now or ever before racist". dT

The NRA is proud of the increasing effectiveness of the stopping power of the American white majority of gun owners.

" White people everywhere, Stand your ground wherever you are. DT

"The NRA is the single best defender of the US Constitution and border." T

"The NRA is more decisive than the Supreme Court."

"You owe your freedom to the NRA BUT the country OWES me" Dt

"The NRA is the first to protect life, liberty and the pursuit of fun." D.T.

"Minorities like MLK owed their life to the NRA." DT

Without Winchester, Colt and Remington the American Indian would not be alive today.

The Solution that keeps on giving is the blood spilled for the NRA. DT

The NRA is saving the USA one gunshot at a time. DT

If you've never hunted, you should be. D.T

Civil Rights are actually the responsible ownership of guns. DT

The NRA's Second Amendment solution is the blood of illegal aliens DT

"I'm sure the kids at Sandy Hook were proud to HELP preserve the second amendment." DT.

"I will fire Putin's Iran" DT

Better dead than blue DT

Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 Jun 15 - 01:18 AM

Donuel, your list, imo, is less than helpful. I realize that you labeled it 'fictional' but you put false words in his mouth. Trump, according to his own public stance is anti-gun control but he says he IS for background checks as well as a couple of other things that should slow weapon acquisition.

I am no fan of Donald Trump, far from it. I consider him a blowhard and a farce,; the only thing I hope for him is that he DOES stay in the race. His candidacy is entertaining and if he were to get the nomination there is no way on the gods' green earth that Republicans would get into the White House this time 'round.

But I much prefer actual quotes. In his case he doesn't need exaggeration.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Jun 15 - 01:39 AM

Yeah, that's very misleading, Donuel. Misinformation isn't helpful to anyone.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA
From: Musket
Date: 26 Jun 15 - 02:56 AM

Found it Joe.

It was in the cookie jar.

Which is strange because we don't have such things over here. A bit like guns really.

(The VPN settings strip cookies from time to time and I need to go through the ruddy thing to be able to access work accounts.)

Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA
From: Thompson
Date: 26 Jun 15 - 09:08 AM

Australian comic Jim Jefferies on Americans and guns.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jun 15 - 12:51 PM

Donald Trump's attempt to prove to Bill Maher that his father was not an orangutan:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wc0JJi71MEc

Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jun 15 - 01:26 PM

That's a relevant issue now that Trump has declared himself a candidate for President. The "birther" movement will no doubt be demanding more conclusive proof than the short-form birth certificate that he provided.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA
From: GUEST,#
Date: 26 Jun 15 - 01:32 PM

Looks like Hilary is in for a run in the Democratic primaries. And Bernie Sanders will be setting the pace.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Jun 15 - 04:32 PM

I understand the criticisms and can empathize with your ethics.

However by that standard there would never have been 90% of the comedy routines by Steven Colbert let alone the hilarious claims of Prescott Pharmaceuticals.

The extremely hateful comments purportedly by the Donald are a punch in the gut that could leave an emotional scar but never one as cutting as the true situation.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Jun 15 - 03:26 PM

Donuel, I think Steven Colbert has the ability to make clear to audiences what's truth and what's exaggeration. Even though you mentioned that your list of "quotations" was fictional, that one word was easy to miss.

Donald Trump, like George W. Bush before him, says enough that is outrageous, that there is no need to make things up. Doonesbury did a great job on comic strips made entirely of exact quotes from Bush - no need to make things up.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA
From: GUEST,Olddude
Date: 28 Jun 15 - 10:45 AM

Look just start with getting rid of gun shows and watch the illegal firearms dry up. As long as that loophole is open no new laws will do anything

Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA
From: Tradsinger
Date: 28 Jun 15 - 11:33 AM

It's really very simple - the fewer guns there are in the community, the fewer people die.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jun 15 - 02:00 PM

Perhaps it is not relevant, but I have been watching video of the massacre of 38 tourists, mostly British and Irish, on a beach in Tunisia.

The killer strolls casually around, emptying and changing his magazines and tossing grenades.

Eventually someone arrived with a gun and stopped him, but he must have been low on ammo by then anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 28 Jun 15 - 02:06 PM

Oh go away Keith

Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Jun 15 - 02:21 PM

You're absolutely right, Keith - its NOT relevant. But your...err.... stuff generally isn't.

Now go away.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jun 15 - 03:13 PM

Reasoned, thoughtful responses.
Thank you for you knowledge and input.

All the indications are that more such attacks can be expected.
I hope no-one you care about becomes the next helpless victim.

I will now go away.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Jun 15 - 03:41 PM

I will now go away

Promises, promises.....

Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 28 Jun 15 - 04:18 PM

Yes, they were reasoned and thoughtful. Neither of us told you to f**k off.

You have that effect upon many people.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA
From: GUEST,Olddude
Date: 29 Jun 15 - 02:54 PM

I use to know who was the good guy and who was the bad guy. Guns in the hands of good guys is fine, however lately I have to think none maybe better. This is from a guy that is license to carry in a pile of states. I sick of thugs killing, thugs in cop uniform killing etc. Time to address the constitution, I will put mine down iftthey do

Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA
From: Raggytash
Date: 29 Jun 15 - 03:24 PM

Well done Old Dude, thats a step in the right direction. I think that most people on this side of the pond cannot concieve the "need" for guns in the USA.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Jun 15 - 04:57 PM

Many of us on THIS side see no need for gun ownership by the average person. But too many of the 'average' ones have generations of different opinions telling them it's the thing to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Jun 15 - 05:37 PM

Its pretty much all down to the unholy alliance betweeen the National Rifle Assassination (of wch I was once a member before they went brain-dead about 1978) and the gun manufacturers.

The gun manufacturers will do literally anything to make a profit, have been pouring millions (billions?) into the NRA coffers for decades, and neither outfit cares how many die as a consequence of their BS fear-mongering and hysteria about the jack-booted gov't comin' fer yer gunz & the rest of their shameless disinformation.

And, of course, the idiots who actually BELIEVE the NRA bullshit are as much to blame as anyone.

This from a gun owner, target shooter & hunter of 60 years' standing.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Jun 15 - 09:20 PM

More common sense from Bernie:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2016/2015/06/29/bernie-sanders-guns/29472567/

Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA
From: gnu
Date: 29 Jun 15 - 10:12 PM

So? Time for some good gun laws? Like those (good ones... we had some bad ones mixed in and that's why our present government fucked up in trashing the good ones along with the bad ones) in Canada?

Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jun 15 - 10:37 PM

That Sanders article makes a lot of sense. Guns in rural areas for hunting, but not assault rifles, which among other things would be a very unsportsmanlike way to hunt animals; and no guns in the city since there's nothing to hunt there but other people.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 30 Jun 15 - 01:28 AM

not meaning to sidetrack the discussion, GUEST, but there is actually quite a lot to hunt in the city. I live in an affluent, heavily populated suburb of a major metropolitan area, and our county has a huge deer population-there were about 2000 auto/deer collisions last year. It is not uncommon to see five or six roaming through neighborhoods at dusk, ravaging gardens, shrubs, and ornamentals.

Though our UK friends may not know that our state has stringent regulations on the use of firearms, the deer do, and they are quite brazen, and have been known to charge when confronted.

There is relatively little gun violence here (which seems to be the only kind people object to), you are about a hundred times more likely to have a Deer-initiated auto accident than to be shot-

Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Jun 15 - 06:15 AM

Stim - longbow or crossbow?

Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Jun 15 - 09:57 AM

Charging, ravaging street gangs of killer deer. Be afraid, Stim, be very afraid.

but there is actually quite a lot to hunt in the city.

And its actually quite illegal to do so.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 30 Jun 15 - 11:48 AM

I thought so, too, Greg, but it turns out not. You can get a special permit, or you can get a job with the animal control department thinning the herd. We like to call them "Bambi Killers" and have tried, to no avail, to get them to desist while kids are waiting for the school busses, but that is apparently prime deer killing time. just so you know, kids, for some reason, are unnerved by gunfire. Who knew?

Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Jun 15 - 01:26 PM

just so you know, kids, for some reason, are unnerved by gunfire.

Wimps. Pussies. They need to take an NRA course. This is AMERICA!   USA!! USA!! USA!! USA!!

Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA
From: gnu
Date: 30 Jun 15 - 06:56 PM

WTF?! Not even a hundred posts so far? The good old days are gone when we could rack up the better part of a thousand posts in a week on a gun thread. Fuckin wimps! Where are the trolls and the assholes? This place has slid seriously uphill!

Listen up all and sundry. I have to provide some impetus if we are going to have an indignant, self aggrandizing, holier than thou, bullshit diatribe that condescends any serious discussion of GUNS. Therefore...

Gods don't kill people, people with Gods kill people.

Surely that will refresh all the fuckin bullshit I have read in this forum about guns and religion that I have PAINfully read over the past fifteen or so years.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA
From: GUEST,#
Date: 30 Jun 15 - 08:35 PM

Here ya go, Gnu.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA
From: gnu
Date: 30 Jun 15 - 09:24 PM

That's more like it, #! God be kickin ass country style with fire and wide brimmed-stoned hats! Yeehaw! >;-)

Sigh. Where are the arseholes? I mean, you know, the guys who just wanna slag others instead of talking about gun legislation that really matters? Have we actually graduated to serious discussion?

Well then, I guess I won't be back in a thousand posts. How refreshing for a change. A civil discussion without bullshit. Imagine that. On Mudcat.

Sorry for my cynicism. I am just havin a bad day. But #'s song post cheered me up. Great tune!

Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Jun 15 - 10:34 PM

HBO Documentary
Requiem Spring

currently playing. do not miss it.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA
From: Rapparee
Date: 30 Jun 15 - 10:39 PM

Mayhap it has been learned that whatever is posted here or elsewhere will not change anything -- especially a) if the posters are not from the US, and, b) their holier-than-thou attitude fails to take into account such things as history and the effects of media on a culture.

There ya go, gnu! That oughta stir 'em up!

Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA
From: GUEST,#
Date: 01 Jul 15 - 09:02 AM

"whatever is posted here or elsewhere will not change anything -- especially a) if the posters are not from the US"

Good ideas don't stop at borders. They never have and they never will. However, if you mean the input from non US citizens won't change American legislation, I agree. Mantras aren't actions.

Many posters have recognized the influence of the NRA and its despicable misuse of the second amendment to the US constitution. Of course the NRA chooses not to mention the little caveat about a well-regulated militia. There is nothing well-regulated about gun ownership in the US, and most gun owners are not members of any militia. Too many of them are themselves frightened people.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA
From: Rapparee
Date: 01 Jul 15 - 09:29 AM

I own guns. Pistols, revolvers, rifles, shotguns. I use them for various types of target shooting, of the sort done in the Olympics. I no longer hunt; my last hunting trip consisted of sitting around a wood stove with my brothers and friends, drinking coffee, eating doughnuts, and swapping lies -- it was a good hunt.

I'm not frightened and I'm not afraid of regulation (there is some and I suspect that there is more coming) that's not an ill considered, panicked response to something awful. The best thing that could happen, in my opinion, is for everyone to sit down, exchange rational dialogue, come up with a plan, pass it into law, and be done with it.

All towns in Ye Olde Weste than I'm aware of had laws against carrying guns in town and against concealed weapons. Yes, even Dodge City, no matter what Marshal Dillon would have you believe...and after the gunfight with Phil Coe (look it up) there is no indication that even James Butler Hickok ever shot anyone again (he was marshal in both Hays and Abilene, KS, but not in Dodge City).

Yes, I agree with those Olde Weste laws, and I'm one of the vast majority who do NOT carry a gun as part of my daily wardrobe (I might possibly carry a sword though, were it legal). I do travel with a gun -- from my home to the target range and back -- but not otherwise. And I respect the laws of other nations (and States) and would not intentionally break any of them, whether I disagree with them or not.

I can serve as an example for others, especially children, but I don't have the money to do much else about gun control or a lot of other things. In the meantime, my firearms are securely locked up separate from what little ammunition I have in the house and I try to follow all the rules for gun safety.

Sorry for the long posting.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA
From: GUEST,#
Date: 01 Jul 15 - 10:13 AM

You're a responsible gun owner. Many people aren't. It's the irresponsible gun owners causing the problems. I'd have no concerns being in a room with you whether your were carrying or not. In fact I have been in a room with you and Pat. Don't assume that it's you being discussed as part of the problem. You aren't.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 01 Jul 15 - 11:50 AM

It isn't guns, per se, that are the problem, although easy access to weapons of war has become a problem of its own.

The actual problem is that we, that is us "Americans", hold a particularly dangerous idea sacred, and that idea is that when we are outraged or angered to a certain degree, it's OK, or even admirable to "go Postal", and that violence is a legitimate last resort when things don't go the way we want them to.

This is an idea that we reinforce and restate often in films, on television, in video games, on talk radio, in internet discussion forums, and in casual conversation, and even in political dialogue (not so much in books, and hardly ever in poetry, tho).

Most of us know better than to shoot anyone with our 300 million odd weapons, and just express the "nuke em" response out of annoyance or frustration, but there are some among us, including mentally and emotionally distressed, socially and economically alienated, and otherwise marginalized individuals, who act it out.

When we see Tony Soprano or Walter White commit mayhem on their antagonists, we feel satisfied and relieved that "frontier justice" has finally been done, but when someone walks into a theater, or a school, or church, we shake our heads and wonder why.

The thing is, more and more, the behavior is moving from the margins to the mainstream, and from law enforcement to foreign military action, the "last resort" has become the "first response".

Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Jul 15 - 01:12 PM

When we see Tony Soprano or Walter White commit mayhem on their antagonists

Or George Bush, for that matter. Or the State of Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA
From: Lighter
Date: 01 Jul 15 - 02:36 PM

> we, that is us "Americans", hold a particularly dangerous idea sacred, and that idea is that when we are outraged or angered to a certain degree, it's OK, or even admirable to "go Postal."

As you say later, only nuts think that way. Only nuts hold that idea "sacred." Most brawls that result from outrage or anger are brief fistfights - though some of course do involve weapons.

And the violent movies and TV shows are popular worldwide - even in Britain and Japan, where gun violence is rare. Overseas genocides, beginning with the Assyrians, have taken place where there are no violent films to encourage societal violence.

No *single* factor (like violent entertainment, or the availability of guns, or mental illness, or the fact that we are Americans) explains gun violence or would truly eliminate it if only better managed.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA
From: gnu
Date: 01 Jul 15 - 09:54 PM

Meanwhile, in Canuckistan, we have a Senator that has introduced Bill S-231. Her synopsis is self-contradictory and convoluted to say the least. On her own page about this, the first sentence reads, "I am one of those people who believe that people don't kill people, guns do." Now, don't get me wrong. I have said MANY times that good gun laws are good gun laws and bad gun laws are bad gun laws (we have both in Canada and the good far outnumber the bad so I wholeheartedly support almost all of them) BUT this idiot is why sane and insane people rail against any gun laws. I disagree with them for the most part but I understand their angst.

Yeah, I know. I said I was going away. But, this shit just came across my radar today. You can Google it... but you can't make sense of it... I sure as fuck can't. How do you make a firearm illegal and then make provisions for the ownership and transport for it? Seriously... search out what she has written. How the FFFF does someone that braindead get into the Senate of Canada???

Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA
From: Rapparee
Date: 01 Jul 15 - 10:18 PM

I know, #. I and every responsible gun owner I know is outraged by the actions and ranting of a few.

I think that the US, unfortunately, had an excellent chance for responsible gun laws back in 1959 or so. Back then the NRA was teaching and backing safe and responsible firearms use, certifying young shooters, and was the organization responsible for the shooting sports of the US Olympic team. Somewhere along the line the fanatics took over and here we are.

Following the JFK assassination Congress had to "do something" and they did. Among other things, they stopped the purchase of guns by mail. Then MLK and RFK were assassinated in 1968 and Congress again had to "do something" so more laws were passed.'

I don't know who on this thread was around in '68, but there was a lot of talk of "Revolution" and "bringing the [Vietnam] war back home." Yes, there was violence by the police, the National Guard, and the US Army. There was also violence by the Black Panther Party, the Weathermen, the KKK, and others. Apart from small groups like the SLA, most of this stopped following the shootings at Kent State.

All of this, coupled with the then-raging Cold War, instilled a paranoia in many in the US that, I think, continues to this day. It isn't helped by films like "Red Dawn" which play up the "we folks have to defend the US by ourselves" ideology.

I have spoken with many who fear the US government (I don't think that the military took over Texas a couple of months ago). Some, hardly a majority, truly feel that they will be fighting off tanks with rifles any day now. Usually these people have no idea of what a truly horrible business war is as they have fed each other on "Red Dawn" idea and that the US Constitution is being ignored and has to be "restored."

Personally, I find the rich/poor gap to be more frightening. There are, however, some signs of rationality starting to show up.

Sorry for the long post, and remember that these are my personal musings.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Jul 15 - 03:18 AM

I'm fairly surprised to be agreeing with quite a bit of what Stim and Rapparee have said - but the fact that the US has an evil history about the abusive use and possession of guns must be faced down rather than surrendered to.

The survivalist Mad Max nutters and the "Going Postal" mentality need to be totally disarmed.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA
From: GUEST,Musket sans Jaffa cake
Date: 02 Jul 15 - 04:38 AM

I'm rather heartened by Dan's reflection on what is for him a lifelong way of enjoyment.

Compare that with the awful comments earlier in the thread by someone who reckoned the Tunisian massacre might not have happened if British tourists on a beach with their children carried guns.

It isn't an American problem. We all have events to contemplate and we all have disturbed individuals who see guns as a solution not a problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA
From: Lighter
Date: 02 Jul 15 - 08:51 AM

> I don't know who on this thread was around in '68.

I remember it vividly. It was quite as you say and possibly worse.

Even in the early '70s there was Patty Hearst and the Symbionese Liberation Army, a Native American showdown with police, and fringe claims that Watergate either proved no US administration could be trusted or that "the liberals" were trying to engineer a coup. Violent crime in big cities was setting new records.

"If you liked the '60s, you weren't really there."

Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Jul 15 - 09:04 AM

Some, hardly a majority, truly feel that they will be fighting off tanks with rifles any day now.

Yes, and these people belong in asylum. They should be prevented from having access to paring kniives, never mind firearms.

Usually these people have no idea of what a truly horrible business war is...

Not surprising, since the evidently don't know what reality is, either.

instilled a paranoia in many in the US that, I think, continues to this day. It isn't helped by films like "Red Dawn"

Nor is it helped by craven, mostly Republican, politicians who constantly rave on about rapist Mexicans, killer Muslims, "Wars on Christianity", terrorists of every stripe and nationality out to "get" the U.S., rampaging, criminal Blacks folks, jack-booted thugs coming to "take away our guns" and all the other shibboleths that are the daily output of outfits like Fux "News"[sic].

See also Hofstadter: "The Paranoid Style in American Politics" 1964.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA
From: Rapparee
Date: 02 Jul 15 - 09:09 AM

Being in the Illinois National Guard from 1963 to 1971 (with a slight break so the unit could go to Vietnam), I was on the "giving end" of the bayonets. Fortunately, the only really active State duty I was on was fighting Mississippi River floods. We were called up by the Governor a couple of other times to stand-by in case we were needed for riot duty but after a week or so we were sent home without doing anything other than sleeping on very uncomfortable cots in a hot Armory building.

Don't get me started about Kent State, even though I was still (not through choice) still in Guard. Let's just say that I believe mistakes were made and let it go at that.

But I was privy to a lot of information that wasn't made public at the time. If you want to read it, the FBI files from that time are online and not all were redacted to fit J. Edgar's views.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Jul 15 - 12:41 PM

Rather than wear out my fingers typing more of the same points, I refer everyone to one of the few threads I actually started: after the school shooting several years ago. I was very angry & frustrated, and continued to be as posters like "Henry Krinkle" tossed out the same tired rationalizations about 'needing' guns for self-defense and the idea that the 2nd Amendment was 'clear'.

"Shooting tragedies and guns"

It went for 1164 posts, and contains about all the arguments & positions that exist. I looked it up to remind myself of what *I* had said and how I said it. You may find your own posts there too.

Read it as far as you can stand it... (don't try to open it all at once, it will bog down your browser)...Read MY posts for a summary of what was happening, as I tried to keep the discussion on track & insert rationality into an emotional debate.

ESPECIALLY read this argument about the math of the situation and the inferences

I don't suppose many will read too far... but Mudcat does have all these threads available, and all the comments- fair, stupid, and everything in between.

Subject: RE: BS: Guns in the USA
From: Rapparee
Date: 02 Jul 15 - 10:51 PM

Dead right, Bill. It's just rehashing the same tired arguments. You and I agree on many things about this issue and disagree on others, which is our right. The interesting thing about this thread is that the posting, over all, have been quite civil.

But I'm tired of it and won't post here again. There's no point to it.