We cannot have an opinion

Subject: We cannot have an opinion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jul 15 - 04:40 AM

I will try again on the strict premise that this thread should not be used to have a go at anyone. Please respect that wish.

I have been told that I am not entitled to an opinion unless I can back that opinion up with facts. I do not believe this to be true. I am of the opinion that Blackbeard's Tea Party are currently the best band on the folk scene. I have no facts to back this up and it is purely my opinion. On a more serious note there are millions of people who are of the opinion that if they adhere to the strict tenets of their faith, they will be rewarded with eternal paradise. There are no facts to back that up either. Both opinions are subjective so cannot be substantiated in an objective manner. Surely that is the way of many opinions isn't it?

Discuss (Nicely :-) )

Subject: RE: We cannot have an opinion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jul 15 - 04:40 AM

Sorry - Should be BS

Subject: RE: We cannot have an opinion
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 05 Jul 15 - 04:48 AM

Yes, Dave, you can have an opinion but there is no reason why I should take it seriously, or agree/disagree with it, unless it's backed up by facts and evidence. Religious faith is fervent and unquestioning belief in something invisible for the existence of which there's no evidence. In my opinion (!) that's just ... very silly!

Subject: RE: We cannot have an opinion
From: GUEST,Kampervan
Date: 05 Jul 15 - 04:55 AM

Of course anyone is entitled to an opinion. It may on the basis of experience, belief, or even prejudice.

But one is entitled to hold it.

Trying to persuade other people of the correctness of that opinion is, however, a different matter. IMHO.

Subject: RE: We cannot have an opinion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jul 15 - 05:08 AM

Ah - This is the sort of good stuff I was hoping for :-) Couple of things. How can I back up an opinion that involves, as in the first example I gave, personal taste? I cannot back up my opinion about Blackbeard's Tea Party with anything other than personal experience. Does that mean that anyone is entitled to tell me that my opinion is nonsense? Secondly, can an opinion be formed on the basis of the research of other people? How much should we trust our sources or must we back up our opinions with first hand facts and evidence?

Subject: RE: We cannot have an opinion
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 05 Jul 15 - 05:24 AM

I cannot back up my opinion about Blackbeard's Tea Party with anything other than personal experience.

You could look at record sales, ticket sales for concerts or reviews in press and make reference to discussions you have had with others interested in folk music. All of these could back up your opinion.

DC

Subject: RE: We cannot have an opinion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jul 15 - 05:27 AM

You could look at record sales, ticket sales for concerts or reviews

Working on that basis One Direction must be a better band than Blackbeard but I don't like them as much. Surely popular opinion can never be the same as informed opinion can it?

Subject: RE: We cannot have an opinion
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 05 Jul 15 - 05:47 AM

Your claim is for the best band on the folk scene. One Direction don't come into that category.

Record/ticket sales aren't proof but they can used to back up your opinion. If there are other folk bands who far outsell Blackbeard's Tea Party, then perhaps your opinion is wrong.

DC

Subject: RE: We cannot have an opinion
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 05 Jul 15 - 06:02 AM

On the other hand, you could be one of the few who recognise talent early on and perhaps, in time, your opinion will be vindicated.

DC

Subject: RE: We cannot have an opinion
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 05 Jul 15 - 06:04 AM

With respect to Blackbeard's Tea Party, Dave, I suspect that you're confusing opinion with personal taste.

Subject: RE: We cannot have an opinion
From: GUEST,Kampervan
Date: 05 Jul 15 - 06:42 AM

The Wiki definition below summarises it quite nicely.

An opinion, in general, is an unsubstantiated belief. The minute you can back it up with facts it becomes - a fact.

There are of course other sorts of opinion - public, legal, group etc etc..

WIKI

In general, an opinion is a judgment, viewpoint, or statement about matters commonly considered to be subjective.

What distinguishes fact from opinion is that facts are verifiable, i.e. can be objectively proven to have occurred. An example is: "United States of America was involved in the Vietnam War" versus "United States of America was right to get involved in the Vietnam War". An opinion may be supported by facts, in which case it becomes an argument, although people may draw opposing opinions from the same set of facts. Opinions rarely change without new arguments being presented. It can be reasoned that one opinion is better supported by the facts than another by analyzing the supporting arguments.[1] In casual use, the term opinion may be the result of a person's perspective, understanding, particular feelings, beliefs, and desires. It may refer to unsubstantiated information, in contrast to knowledge and fact.

Subject: RE: We cannot have an opinion
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Jul 15 - 07:08 AM

If someone has nothing to back up their opinions, then in my opinion they would feel much more at home on facebook.

Subject: RE: We cannot have an opinion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jul 15 - 07:08 AM

Yes, you are right, Doug. Poor example on my part. Maybe a better comparison would be with Bellowhead who I went to see last week. They outsell Blackbeard's but, in my opinion, are not as good. It is partly personal taste, Shimrod but that is not all of it. Personal taste would say I like them. Opinion says they are the best band.

Kampervan, very good point. That may well answer my question. If opinion is substantiated, then it becomes fact. That is what has been niggling me. Asking to prove or substantiate an opinion negates the opinion itself. If it could be proved, it would no longer be an opinion. Is asking why you have a particular opinion therefore like asking why you like a particular band or why you believe in a god?

Subject: RE: We cannot have an opinion
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Jul 15 - 07:09 AM

This forum is primarily for adults.

Subject: RE: We cannot have an opinion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jul 15 - 07:10 AM

But that is just your opinion, ake :-)

Subject: RE: We cannot have an opinion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jul 15 - 07:14 AM

...which is, incidentally, entirely wrong. Facebook has a minimum age of 13 before you can open an account. This forum has no such rule.

Subject: RE: We cannot have an opinion
From: GUEST,Kampervan
Date: 05 Jul 15 - 07:20 AM

DtG, yes, of course you can be asked for or give reasons for your opinion..

e.g. I think that Black Sabbath are the best group in the world because they are very loud

That they are very loud may be a fact, but whether or not that makes them the best group is still an opinion.

Subject: RE: We cannot have an opinion
From: Lighter
Date: 05 Jul 15 - 07:28 AM

I used to teach university students about the differences between truth and fact, fact and opinion, and of the varying weight of professional, informed, uninformed, and mass opinion, and of personal taste.

Many had given these ideas only superficial thought at best.

I've also met people with doctorates who insist that a verifiable fact they don't care to factor into their belief is "merely your opinion."

Why should we expect it to be different here?

Subject: RE: We cannot have an opinion
From: GUEST,Kampervan
Date: 05 Jul 15 - 07:32 AM

Lighter -
Maybe not, but it's still worth discussing

Subject: RE: We cannot have an opinion
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Jul 15 - 07:51 AM

I think this refers to an exchange with me.

I have been told that I am not entitled to an opinion unless I can back that opinion up with facts.

You were told no such thing.

Of course everyone can have an opinion on anything.

What I told you was that you can not expect it to get serious consideration if it is not based on any actual knowledge.

Your opinion was that mainstream media, and specifically BBC, play a bigger role in radicalising people to join IS than the internet.

Much has been said and written about the problem of radicalisation, but that notion is unique to you Dave.

Subject: RE: We cannot have an opinion
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 05 Jul 15 - 07:59 AM

I think the idea in a debate is you consider someone's opinion and decide whether to give it any credence or not. Not merely to shout them down as often occurs.

Subject: RE: We cannot have an opinion
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Jul 15 - 08:02 AM

Do you mean writing in capitals Rag?
Otherwise, how can one person on a forum shout down a gang?

Subject: RE: We cannot have an opinion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jul 15 - 08:12 AM

"Otherwise, how can one person on a forum shout down a gang?"
Or how does anybody shout down a troll idiot
Terms like "gang" are exactly the sort that get threads closed
As far as I am aware, all contributors post independently on this forum - there are no cabals, other than those that have been planted by organisations like BNP
PLEASE DON'T KILL THIS THREAD BEFORE IT GETS GOING
As for being taken seriously - there are a few here who, due to past behaviour, never will be
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: We cannot have an opinion
From: GUEST,#
Date: 05 Jul 15 - 08:15 AM

"Prejudice is a great time saver. You can form opinions without having to get the facts."

E. B. White

Subject: RE: We cannot have an opinion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jul 15 - 08:15 AM

No references to specific old discussions from me, Keith. If you choose to continue old arguments on here that is your business but I expect that will serve no purpose other than closing the thread. If I wanted to discuss radicalisation I would have opened a thread on it. This thread is intended to be about what opinions actually are and whether they should be considered. If you have nothing to say about that please stay out of it.

One thing you did say that does have a bearing though is that an opinion should not be considered seriously unles it is based on actual knowledge. Does that include the opinion that there is a divine being? If so, what 'actual knowledge' does anyone have on that?

Subject: RE: We cannot have an opinion
From: GUEST,#
Date: 05 Jul 15 - 08:20 AM

When are facts facts?

Example: I drop a brick on my foot and it hurts, is that fact or opinion?

Subject: RE: We cannot have an opinion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jul 15 - 08:24 AM

I think that is more cause and effect, #. My opinion is that you should have been more careful or worn safety boots :-)

Subject: RE: We cannot have an opinion
From: GUEST,#
Date: 05 Jul 15 - 08:27 AM

True. But my foot was frozen and the brick was made from styrofoam. :-)

Subject: RE: We cannot have an opinion
From: GUEST,Kampervan
Date: 05 Jul 15 - 08:37 AM

Only the person on whose foot the brick fell could have known for a fact if it hurt or not. Everyone else would simply have had an opinion.

Subject: RE: We cannot have an opinion
From: GUEST,#
Date: 05 Jul 15 - 08:48 AM

LOL, good one Kampervan.

Subject: RE: We cannot have an opinion
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Jul 15 - 09:08 AM

One thing you did say that does have a bearing though is that an opinion should not be considered seriously unles it is based on actual knowledge.

Yes.
An opinion based on ignorance is worthless.

Does that include the opinion that there is a divine being?

Yes.

If so, what 'actual knowledge' does anyone have on that?

None either way.

Subject: RE: We cannot have an opinion
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Jul 15 - 09:11 AM

Only the person on whose foot the brick fell could have known for a fact if it hurt or not. Everyone else would simply have had an opinion.

An opinion based on direct experience of similar events.
That would be an informed opinion and I would give that due consideration.

Subject: RE: We cannot have an opinion
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 05 Jul 15 - 09:20 AM

I think the existence or non-existence of a divine being is a matter of belief rather than an opinion.

Subject: RE: We cannot have an opinion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jul 15 - 09:26 AM

Ah - Well done, Derrick. As I was watering the garden I just came up with my next question which you have led in to very well. Thanks :-)

Is there any difference between a belief and an opinion? Is it OK to mock an opinion or belief if it is groundless or should all opinions and beliefs be respected?

Subject: RE: We cannot have an opinion
From: Lighter
Date: 05 Jul 15 - 09:32 AM

Why "LOL"? It's true.

Of course, if they'd ever had a similar painful experience (heavy weight dropped on flesh and bone), and you had no obvious reason for making up the whole thing, their most rational opinion would be that your pain was a fact - until the Styrofoam evidence surfaced.

At that point, they'd wonder what you were after.

Amputees frequently report itching or other "feeling" "in" the amputated limb.

The experience of the feeling appears to be a fact (according to   medical opinion). But if the amputee insisted, on the basis of his presumably factual but subjective feeling, that the limb must still be there, that opinion would be not only false but crazy.

And, of course, just because the feeling (called "phantom limb syndrome") is a widely accepted fact, that particular individual could be lying about experiencing it personally.

Short of a brain scan, what way would there be to tell?

Subject: RE: We cannot have an opinion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jul 15 - 09:40 AM

Oh, sorry, I should have addressed an earlier point first. I, for one, do not know if anyone's opinion is based on ignorance or not. I can make certain assumptions about the opinions of others based on my trust of them but I have no way of telling if their opinion is correct or not. If it was certain to be correct it would not be an opinion but a fact. Going back to my original point. If I do not reveal the knowledge that led me to form that opinion, does that make my opinion less valid? It is simply a question of trust surely? I would trust the opinion of a leading philosopher and social activist but I would not trust anything I read or hear in the popular press. That is purely my opinion of course but a lifetimes experience has led me to it. If my opinion is not trusted by some, fine, I accept that. But to say it is worthless because my experience and qualifications for that opinion are unknown is rather unjust is it not?

Subject: RE: We cannot have an opinion
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 05 Jul 15 - 09:49 AM

DtG said:

One thing you did say that does have a bearing though is that an opinion should not be considered seriously unles it is based on actual knowledge. Does that include the opinion that there is a divine being? If so, what 'actual knowledge' does anyone have on that?

None, as far as I can tell. Therefore that opinion should not be expected to be considered seriously. The only fact there is that (whoever) states that (s)he does hold that opinion.

Citing that so-and-so holds a certain opinion (or states it as if it were a fact) is merely indulging in one of the classical fallacies, the appeal to authority.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: We cannot have an opinion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jul 15 - 09:55 AM

Interesting Dave, I cross posted with you just as I was saying I would trust certain opinions but not others. Is that appeal to authority or simply a matter of deciding who you would trust?

Subject: RE: We cannot have an opinion
From: GUEST,#
Date: 05 Jul 15 - 10:00 AM

Once we define what we mean by the number 1, what we mean by +, what we mean by =, we can define what the number 2 results from. We have yet to define what 2 is. That's my belief, opinion and fact. All else is commentary.

Subject: RE: We cannot have an opinion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jul 15 - 10:07 AM

I don't think it is a fact, #. 2 may not exist at all so how can it be defined? There are only 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary and those who do not.

Subject: RE: We cannot have an opinion
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Jul 15 - 10:09 AM

If I do not reveal the knowledge that led me to form that opinion, does that make my opinion less valid?

What reason could anyone have for stating an opinion but withholding the knowledge they claim to base it on?

It would seriously reduce your credibility.

Subject: RE: We cannot have an opinion
From: Lighter
Date: 05 Jul 15 - 10:20 AM

If this were a philosophical/mathematical forum, # would have stipulated that he was talking about the ordinary, not the binary, meanings of numbers and operators. He might have expected wise-guy comments.

Besides, the binary system is just another way of representing numbers.

That system isn't the *idea* of the numbers, any more than are 1,2,3, IX, D, or (in the even more impractical system I just made up now), ^%, or )(, or ":<.

The properties of numbers don't change according to the style of representing them.

Essay question:

Are the properties of numbers real, and do they exist independently of us? Or are they are just something dreamed up by the ancients with little or no relation to truth? Discuss.

Extra credit: What is the "reality" of an "imaginary number" like the square root of -1 ? Hint: "imaginary numbers" are actually used in certain calculations.

Subject: RE: We cannot have an opinion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jul 15 - 10:21 AM

There are many reasons people may not want their knowledge made public. Maybe I am just not looking to make myself more credible to people who are not important to me. One thing is for certain, those who know me and those I care about know that my opinions are far from vacuous whims.

Subject: RE: We cannot have an opinion
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 05 Jul 15 - 10:22 AM

If I do not reveal the knowledge that led me to form that opinion, does that make my opinion less valid?

Your opinion is still valid but it weakens the argument supporting it.

Going back to your original example of which, in your opinion, is the best band:- the term 'best' is not black and white. One band may be best in the studio, another best on stage. A band, that may not be technically the best, may give the best entertainment value. As individuals will put different weighting on these various alternatives, the overall 'best' will always be opinions, no matter how strong the arguments.

DC

Subject: RE: We cannot have an opinion
From: GUEST,#
Date: 05 Jul 15 - 10:26 AM

"Those who understand binary and those who do not."

I'm glad some folks have a sense of humour about this :-)

Subject: RE: We cannot have an opinion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jul 15 - 10:26 AM

I was quite amazed when my eldest chose to do a dual subject degree in Maths and Philosophy. Not having had the benefit of higher education other business based a a grounding in economics I could not envisage how the two would work together. Following our chats during his course I became more and more aware of the philosophical nature of mathematics. Still cannot get my head around some of it, but at least now I know I do not know enough to hold meaningful discussions on it. In my opinion of course :-)

BTW - Said eldest son becomes 40 on Tuesday! Makes me feel really old...

Subject: RE: We cannot have an opinion
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Jul 15 - 10:27 AM

Maybe I am just not looking to make myself more credible to people who are not important to me.

If the people are important enough to give the opinion to, why not also tell them why you hold it?

If you want to state an opinion, and want it given consideration, you should be prepared justify it.
(In my opinion.)

Subject: RE: We cannot have an opinion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jul 15 - 10:33 AM

Exactly, in your opinion. It is not a fact that this must happen. As I have argued previously the opinions of some carry more weight than others. There are those I trust and those I do not but I would never say any of them are worthless. I just disregard those I do not trust. Maybe that is wrong of me but I have reached an age (see earlier post!) where I do not want to spend precious time on futile arguments. I want to learn, not win or lose.

Subject: RE: We cannot have an opinion
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Jul 15 - 10:34 AM

If you want to state an opinion, and want it given consideration, you should be prepared justify it.

For instance, by stating that all living historians who write for the tabloid press & whose books are available in bookshops agree with that opinion.

See, Dave, I wasn't really before time after all! ;>)

Subject: RE: We cannot have an opinion
From: GUEST,#
Date: 05 Jul 15 - 10:39 AM

Dave, off topic but that's never stopped me before.

My eldest daughter really took to maths. She was learning, understanding and applying calculus at the age of 15. I'm mostly sure how to spell it, the history of it and even some uses for it. But edo it? Not a chance. I can keep a running estimate of groceries and their total cots and usually I'm out by a percent or two on $100 dollar shopping days. That from a guy who has grade 10 despite sitting through a year of grade 11. This has led me to conclude that genetics is a black art.