Shirley Collins - 80th Concert

Subject: Shirley Collins - 80th Concert
From: GUEST,CJB
Date: 05 Jul 15 - 04:55 AM

Following on from Shirley's recent Interview in the Observer / Guardian ...

http://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=157365

folks might be interested in tonight's concert with Shirley and friends to celebrate her 80th year.

http://www.southbankcentre.co.uk/whatson/all-in-the-downs-pur-92566
http://www.southbankcentre.co.uk/whatson/all-in-the-downs-92129

The 'downs' actually being the South Downs of Sussex - an area of outstanding natural beauty in Southern England. And so really the events should be entitled 'All in the Downs.' This refers to the old folks who lived and worked in the Downland villages and on the farms. Many were reknowned singers like the Copper Family of Rottingdean (my home village), or musicians like fiddle player Michael Turner of Warnham.

I too have deep connections with Sussex. My direct forbears - the Bryans - owned the workhouse at Petworth, and even earlier forbears came from Singleton near Chichester.

Sadly I haven't seen these events advertised anywhere in the folk press, or anywhere else other than a brief mention in Southbank event listings. Indeed there are masses of (higher priced) tickets still available.

Unfortunately I couldn't buy tickets at the Royal Festival Hall because they insisted I give them my home address. RFH is a charity - I don't give my private address to charities. In which case they said that they couldn't sell me tickets. Talk about 'Jobsworth's (see 'Jobsworth' by Jeremy Taylor on YouTube). Charities are well known in the UK for selling on addresses of supporters in order to bombard them with junk mail. Booking online involves a ubiquitous rip-off booking fee.

Subject: RE: Shirley Collins - 80th Concert
From: GUEST,CJB
Date: 05 Jul 15 - 04:59 AM

B.. H... I've just booked on line and the damned RFH system has charged me twice for ONE ticket.

Subject: RE: Shirley Collins - 80th Concert
From: GUEST,CJB
Date: 06 Jul 15 - 10:39 AM

HUGELY disappointed in this wasted opportunity.

There were no songs from Sussex. If there were whatever was performed was NOT in the old 'from the heart' singing that Shirley Collins frequently proclaims a love for in her various interviews.

The traditional folk songs and music from the Sussex Downs - were not represented in any shape or form - the title of the show was completely misleading - not good.

The Southbank was greatly amiss in NOT stating that Shirley would not be performing in the programmes / publicity (what there was of it) and at the start. Indeed as far as we understood she would not be present at all. However she did make a brief (very) appearance at the very end.

The concert itself - lacking traditional songs - seemed to be all amplified folk-rock from Shropshire - hardly the style of performances that represented Shirley or indeed Sussex. The band performances seemed far too loud as is folk-rock generally - being over-amplified, and with a full drum set, somewhat up-tempo.

I think the traditional pub singers of late 1800s Sussex would be turning over in their respective graves. Copper Family singing style this was not. Nothing from the heart.

The other highly irritating aspect - and one that seems ubiquitous in the folk scene - is the 'mumble.' This is due to the assumption that if a speaking voice is amplified then everyone can hear it clearly. However the introductions and explanations (even a joke or a story) could NOT be heard from the upper half of the Hall due to the appalling acoustics, the over-amplification and the incompetent sound guys. None of the performers asked the audience if they could hear clearly. Why don't folk singers learn diction or public speaking to make themselves clearly heard?

Sam Lee (I think) made a long preamble for over 12 minutes - yet not a word could be understood because he was one of the worst mumblers. It was a total waste of time him being there. The rest of the band were the same - except for John Kirkpatrick.

Oh - and why on earth were there a men's morris team and a women's morris team performing in the show. Morris dancing never was a Sussex folk tradition in the olden days.

All in all this was a missed opportunity to really represent the repertoire of Shirley Collins and Sussex traditional singing.

Subject: RE: Shirley Collins - 80th Concert
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 06 Jul 15 - 11:30 AM

Wow, you sound like a bundle of laughs...

I just had a look at the description of the concert from the link you gave:

Compered by Stewart Lee, musicians Sam Lee, Olivia Chaney, Lisa Knapp, Alasdair Roberts, Graham Coxon and Trembling Bells perform songs inspired or composed by Collins alongside a seven-piece band led by John Kirkpatrick.

Yet you say that "The Southbank was greatly amiss in NOT stating that Shirley would not be performing in the programmes"

It's fairly clear from the description that she wouldn't be, isn't it?

You also moan that "The traditional folk songs and music from the Sussex Downs - were not represented in any shape or form ".

No, I think that ...perform songs inspired or composed by Collins makes that pretty clear too.

Did you bother to find out who people like Graham Coxon or Trembling Bells are, before booking? I doubt that you did, else you'd have known better as to what you might expect.

As for your assertion that "charities are well known in the UK for selling on addresses of supporters in order to bombard them with junk mail", do you have any evidence for this?

Having worked for several charities over several decades, I have never once come across this, or heard such an accusation. Make an address up if you're that bothered.

Sorry, but you don't get a lot of sympathy from me.

Subject: RE: Shirley Collins - 80th Concert
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jul 15 - 01:42 PM

http://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/Pensioner-spent-30-000-falling-prey-mail-scams/story-21200325-detail/story.html

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/olive-cooke-ifaw-rspca-buav-5712497

http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/11511646.Pensioner_bombarded_with_charity_begging_letters/

http://www.fundraising.co.uk/2015/05/15/family-and-friend-claim-poppy-seller-distressed-by-fundraising-appeals-before-her-death/

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/11609400/Are-you-on-a-charity-sucker-list.html

etc., etc., etc,.....

Subject: RE: Shirley Collins - 80th Concert
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 06 Jul 15 - 03:03 PM

With those links, you entirely miss the point.

Sure, feel free to be unjustifiably paranoid about your address if you wish. I can't be arsed to explain to you why you are mistaken.

All the best to you, anyway.

Ed

Subject: RE: Shirley Collins - 80th Concert
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 06 Jul 15 - 04:53 PM

Let me say that the compere was a very annoying little man indeed, JK, Olivia Chaney, Lisa Knapp, and Lavinia Blackwell of Trembling Bells were superb as were Belles of London City and Brighton Morris - with tuba in the band and was it John Watcham on concertina??

I am not familiar with the various floor spots endured - Sam Lee, Graham Coxton and Alistair Roberts, nor would I ever wish to be. And then there was Trembling Bells - whose guitarist and drummer disastered their way through the No Roses album, which frankly needs the sparse but effective drumming style of Dave Mattacks, but does not need heavy metal guitar solos - especially in the wrong key at one point!!!

But hey, everything sounds different to everybody and I'm sure it was a wonderful evening for Shirley.

Subject: RE: Shirley Collins - 80th Concert
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jul 15 - 04:59 PM

Where were the present Copper Family and BobLewis are they not appropriate representatives of the sussex tradtional music scene?

Subject: RE: Shirley Collins - 80th Concert
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 06 Jul 15 - 05:33 PM

Wow, GSS....

It was never meant to be a gig representing the Sussex traditional music scene

Did you bother to read my earlier comments?

Thought not...

Subject: RE: Shirley Collins - 80th Concert
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jul 15 - 07:33 PM

Shirley is one of the greatest folk singers of all time. She has that quality that often eludes otherwise good English folkies, an absolute lack of big ego in her singing. Shirley Collins sings from the heart in her own natural voice. It's great to hear that she is occasionally singing again. It's also great that she's left us so many good albums, and Anthems is definitely coming to my desert island. But if you can afford just one Shirley album, make it Fountains Of Snow, a sublime and generous collection of Shirley at her very best. God, and I haven't even mentioned No Roses...

Subject: RE: Shirley Collins - 80th Concert
From: GUEST,a music lover
Date: 06 Jul 15 - 07:49 PM

There were many beautiful moments in last night's birthday concert for Shirley Collins, the various artists singing with true love for the songs. On that point I would disagree with guestCJB that there was 'nothing from the heart.'

The fact that most of the singers were not from a Sussex singing tradition attests to the breadth of appeal that Shirley's music has, not to mention its extremely high quality; moreover, the lack of parochialism evident in the concert healthily honours the fact that Shirley travelled widely beyond her Sussex home, most notably in the American South, to encounter, learn from and record various traditional musics of other cultures than her own. It's always seemed to me that, like the best art, Shirley's music speaks about what humans have in common regardless of place of origin or habitation, reaching out to something universal.

Subject: RE: Shirley Collins - 80th Concert
From: melodeonboy
Date: 06 Jul 15 - 07:52 PM

Surely Anthems In Eden is Shirley at her very best? It's only a matter of opinion, I suppose!

Subject: RE: Shirley Collins - 80th Concert
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jul 15 - 07:58 PM

It was certainly a departure, but it worked for me in spades. A song cycle right up there with the best of Schubert, Schumann, Wolf and Beethoven. And I'd bet they would have agreed!

Subject: RE: Shirley Collins - 80th Concert
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jul 15 - 11:38 PM

no ed, I did not read your post, because I saw a comment from you calling someone a bundle of laughs which i thought was uncalled for so i skipped the rest of your post.

Subject: RE: Shirley Collins - 80th Concert
From: GUEST,a music lover
Date: 07 Jul 15 - 05:23 AM

A review here from Robin Denselow in the Guardian:

http://www.theguardian.com/music/2015/jul/06/all-in-the-downs-review-a-memorable-shirley-collins-celebration

Subject: RE: Shirley Collins - 80th Concert
From: Vic Smith
Date: 07 Jul 15 - 07:58 AM

I disagree with too many things posted on this thread to go into detail, but what the hell? It's only Moaning Mudcat so what can you expect?

Let me do three things:-
1] Provide a clickable link to Robin Denselow's review in The Guardian which I largely but nor entirely agree with.
2] Provide another link to some of photos that I took of a thoroughly enjoyable day by clicking here.
3] Respond to GUEST,CJB and the statement at 06 Jul 15 - 10:39 that The Southbank was greatly amiss in NOT stating that Shirley would not be performing in the programmes by saying how much I enjoyed the songs that Shirley sang on the stage of the Purcell Room on Sunday (accompanied by my band-mate, Ian Kearey) and provide photographic evidence that it actually happened.

Subject: RE: Shirley Collins - 80th Concert
From: Vic Smith
Date: 07 Jul 15 - 08:11 AM

Bonzo 3 Legs wrote -
"was it John Watcham on concertina??"

Yes.

Subject: RE: Shirley Collins - 80th Concert
From: Paul Burke
Date: 07 Jul 15 - 11:16 AM

But if you can afford just one Shirley album, make it Fountains Of Snow, a sublime and generous collection of Shirley at her very best. God, and I haven't even mentioned No Roses......Surely Anthems In Eden is Shirley at her very best? It's only a matter of opinion, I suppose!

If you can only afford to buy one, mug a Eurobanker and buy all three.

Subject: RE: Shirley Collins - 80th Concert
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 07 Jul 15 - 01:52 PM

I hope this inspires Ashley to put a band together to perform "No Roses" - if our lottery numbers came up, I would finance it:

First half - Morris On

Second half - No Roses

The band:

Olivia Chaney - vocals/harmonium
Lisa Knapp - vocals/fiddle
Richard Thompson - guitar
Simon Nicol - guitar
Ashley Hutchings - bass
John Kirkpatrick - squeezeboxes
Dave Mattacks - drums

Subject: RE: Shirley Collins - 80th Concert
From: Hagman
Date: 07 Jul 15 - 04:54 PM

Vic Smith wrote:

"I disagree with too many things posted on this thread to go into detail, but what the hell? It's only Moaning Mudcat so what can you expect?

Let me do three things:-
1] Provide a clickable link to Robin Denselow's review in The Guardian which I largely but nor entirely agree with.
2] Provide another link to some of photos that I took of a thoroughly enjoyable day by clicking here.
3] Respond to GUEST,CJB and the statement at 06 Jul 15 - 10:39 that The Southbank was greatly amiss in NOT stating that Shirley would not be performing in the programmes by saying how much I enjoyed the songs that Shirley sang on the stage of the Purcell Room on Sunday (accompanied by my band-mate, Ian Kearey) and provide photographic evidence that it actually happened."

Nice work, Vic. Photos are super, as was the day. Those who missed the day for whatever reasont were very unlucky; those who were there and were disappointed must be pretty hard to please, IMHO. We travelled 10,000 miles to be there, and loved every second.

Subject: RE: Shirley Collins - 80th Concert
From: GUEST,surreysinger sans cookie
Date: 07 Jul 15 - 07:57 PM

Guest CJB - if you had wanted to see Shirley, then her discussion with Stewart Lee in the afternoon was what you should have booked for .... I was expecting just an hour - but instead it was more like 2, with plenty of recorded musical illustrations, but also, as Vic said, Shirley sang two songs at the end. It was good to hear. (The afternoon was only spoiled for me by some idiot towards the back of the hall who seemed to think there was no problem in continually checking his texts and emails. The bright shining screen of his mobile was a continual distraction as it was switched on and off. Couldn't help but wonder where the ushers were to enforce the mobiles ban!)

Subject: RE: Shirley Collins - 80th Concert
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jul 15 - 08:57 PM

That was a njce, affectionate review in the Guardian. I wasn't there, so can't respond to that, but what was it, Vic, that you didn't agree with? Just wondering, and no typical Mudcat booby trip intended!

Subject: RE: Shirley Collins - 80th Concert
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jul 15 - 08:59 PM

Nice! My eyesight's not what it was and I did wonder what that red underlining meant...

Subject: RE: Shirley Collins - 80th Concert
From: Vic Smith
Date: 08 Jul 15 - 05:39 AM

Steve Shaw wrote -
" what was it, Vic, that you didn't agree with? Just wondering, and no typical Mudcat booby trip intended!

Experience has taught me that arguing on Mudcat - even correcting errors - is largely a waste of time. It has led to me unfairly being accused of being a liar and being called names on this forum - so I don't play that game any more.

Subject: RE: Shirley Collins - 80th Concert
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Jul 15 - 06:10 AM

I really was just wondering, Vic, that's all. :-( As I said, I wasn't there. Moving swiftly on then...

Subject: RE: Shirley Collins - 80th Concert
From: bubblyrat
Date: 08 Jul 15 - 10:10 AM

Funny old place ,Sussex. My ancestors ( Mills) were from around Littlehampton ( Lyminster) , Fernhurst , West Dean etc, and I grew up in Midhurst , but never once did I see any Morris dancing or hear a Sussex tune (except for the inevitable "Sussex By The Sea " at Cowdray polo matches ).But in later life I saw/heard Shirley and heard Scan Tester tunes , so that makes up for it !

Subject: RE: Shirley Collins - 80th Concert
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jul 15 - 01:05 PM

Sounds like just what I would expect from that line up.

Subject: RE: Shirley Collins - 80th Concert
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Jul 15 - 04:09 AM

Good to hear that Shirley did actually sing over the weekend.
if someone has not enjoyed a concert surely they are entitled to say so without being called names, neither is it fair to dismiss this forum as moaning mudcat, on the strength of one criticism of the concert, it appears that number of people enjoyed the concert and somebody did not, what is new about that.
to be fair to guest cjb, he stated that he had difficulties getting tickets, that is a reasonable criticism, he stated that he did not like some of the introductions and did not like the folk rock aspect of parts of the concert, surely he is entitled to state that certain aspects of the concert were not to his taste[ without being called a bundle of laughs].
Vic Smith and robin denselow enjoyed the concert, although Robin appears to have got the name of a song wrong., the song is generally known as just as the tide was flowing, shirleys version has a fine tune but is in fact a fragment, there are more complete versions with a fuller storyline, but as shirley has explained the realative she learned this song from only ever sang fragments of songs, which in this particular case is a great pity. here is a complete version of the song with a different tune sung by a fine singer tony rosehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGVnwtYIvFc

Subject: RE: Shirley Collins - 80th Concert
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 11 Jul 15 - 05:45 PM

I really don't think that any self respecting record company would want to put this out - Trembling Bells - "all star band"?? I don't think so.

Claudy Banks

Subject: RE: Shirley Collins - 80th Concert
From: GUEST,amusiclover
Date: 12 Jul 15 - 02:57 PM

Hey Bonzo3legs - is it even legal for you to share this recording, let alone to have made it in the first place? I wonder how the musicians involved (all the musicians involved, including Shirley Collins) would feel about it?

On a related matter, did anybody else find Sam Lee's tale about basically stalking Irish travellers for their songs rather offensive?

Subject: RE: Shirley Collins - 80th Concert
From: Hagman
Date: 12 Jul 15 - 03:56 PM

Sounds better than the past five U2 albums. Why would' it be released? (For those who weren't there, that was John Kirkpatrick on lead vocals.)

No, I didn't find Sam Lee's tale offensive - the guy he allegedly stalked invited him to visit, remember.

Subject: RE: Shirley Collins - 80th Concert
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 12 Jul 15 - 04:02 PM

"did anybody else find Sam Lee's tale about basically stalking Irish travellers for their songs rather offensive? "

We found it very very boring indeed.

Subject: RE: Shirley Collins - 80th Concert
From: GUEST,amusiclover
Date: 12 Jul 15 - 04:44 PM

Hagman - it was more his disparaging attitude towards the other travellers he encountered on his journey which I found problematic.

Subject: RE: Shirley Collins - 80th Concert
From: melodeonboy
Date: 12 Jul 15 - 05:50 PM

I found it interesting, honest and well narrated.

Subject: RE: Shirley Collins - 80th Concert
From: Vic Smith
Date: 12 Jul 15 - 06:38 PM

There was a tight schedule of 2 songs each in the first half and a very long introduction was one reason why Alasdair and John K ended up with one song each.

Subject: RE: Shirley Collins - 80th Concert
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 02:49 AM

It was more the out of tune and out of control volume of the electric guitar, and pathetic out of time drumming from Trembling Bells that I found very problematic!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: Shirley Collins - 80th Concert
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 03:01 AM

Thank goodness for such excellent artists as JK, Olivia Chaney and Lisa Knapp to sing the songs from No Roses.

Subject: RE: Shirley Collins - 80th Concert
From: GUEST,amusiclover
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 09:05 AM

Bonzo3legs, I wonder how those excellent artists would feel if they knew that you had been illicitly recording some of their work and sharing it online? I wonder how the Queen Elizabeth Hall/Southbank would feel also... I don't imagine that they'd be too happy about it.

Subject: RE: Shirley Collins - 80th Concert
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 09:12 AM

I've seen Trembling Bells several times and never come away disappointed. I'mean quite keen on the raw and sometimes ramshackle approach they have - give me that over smooth and polished any day. And Alex Neilson is a wonderful drummer - he owes more to jazz and improv than to rock. Still, horses for courses.

Subject: RE: Shirley Collins - 80th Concert
From: GUEST,Reynard
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 12:07 PM

I was at this concert; the drumming was not out of time to my ear. I agree with SP and I bet the Albion Band or Fairport in their prime were sometimes "raw and sometimes ramshackle".

The second half was a good spirited recreation of 70s Folk-Rock, and it was quite charming to see John Kirkpatrick clearly having a great time leading a band of younger musicians..

Subject: RE: Shirley Collins - 80th Concert
From: Vic Smith
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 12:12 PM

The second half was a good spirited recreation of 70s Folk-Rock, and it was quite charming to see John Kirkpatrick clearly having a great time leading a band of younger musicians. 

Subject: RE: Shirley Collins - 80th Concert
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 06:40 PM

" I'mean quite keen on the raw and sometimes ramshackle approach they have - give me that over smooth and polished any day."
well mr cringe, that depends on the music being played, just because smething is smooth and polished it does not follow that it is soulless, ditto just because something is unpolished it does not follow it is being performed with feeling.
I am objecting to your remark on a point of principle, I am not commenting on the concert because i was not there[unfortunately]. however i am delighted that Shirley sang.

Subject: RE: Shirley Collins - 80th Concert
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 07:47 PM

Just a personal preference, GSS.

Subject: RE: Shirley Collins - 80th Concert
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 14 Jul 15 - 03:07 AM

"I was at this concert; the drumming was not out of time to my ear"

Well, we all hear things differently "I must say" - in the best Celia Johnson voice of course!!!

Subject: RE: Shirley Collins - 80th Concert
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jul 15 - 04:52 AM

Was it Stewart Lee or Sam Lee who did the very long introduction? I'm confused.

Subject: RE: Shirley Collins - 80th Concert
From: Vic Smith
Date: 14 Jul 15 - 05:37 AM

Sam

Subject: RE: Shirley Collins - 80th Concert
From: Vic Smith
Date: 15 Jul 15 - 10:56 AM

Colin Irwin reviews the 80th birthday concerts of both Peggy Seeger and Shirley Collins in the current Spiral Earth Read it by clicking here.

Subject: RE: Shirley Collins - 80th Concert
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 15 Jul 15 - 02:25 PM

"Trembling Bells – the "Albion Band" for the night – aren't everybody's stick of rhubarb"

Bloody right they're not!!