Nationality of songs

Subject: RE: Nationality of songs
From: GUEST,Alan Ross
Date: 12 Jul 15 - 10:05 PM

Thanks for that.   I know that it may be pedantic. But being alive (unlike my father), I have the chance to set the record straight with his songs before the Chinese whispers syndrome strikes. I guess as well you see, if an organisation is there to archive - then to me they have a duty to pass on historical information when known if they are circulating the work to promote it for cultural reasons and not create a myth.

Subject: RE: Nationality of songs
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 12 Jul 15 - 09:55 PM

Afraid that's par for the course, Alan. There are dozens, possibly hundreds, of songs that are listed as "Irish" which aren't.

I've corrected people on YouTube who described as "wonderful Celtic music" such songs as:

Tom Paine, performed by Pig's Ear and written by Steve Tilston ....a song about an Englishman, written by an Englishman and performed by an English band.

Who Knows Where The Time Goes, performed by Kate Rusby and written by Sandy Denny.

Dirty Old Town is often described as Irish, as are Shoals Of Herring, Fiddler's Green, Mairi's Wedding and many others whose main connection with Ireland is that they've, at one time or other, appeared in the repertoires of well-known Irish bands such as the Dubliners, Chieftains, Pogues, etc.

It seems as if any decent song or tune which is taken up by Irish performers automatically gets adopted into the "Irish Canon" and then propagates globally as an "Irish" song. Not sure there's anything we can do about it as the momentum is so great. Mostly I don't think it matters, and there are a lot of "Trad" songs that have been collected from various parts of the British Isles over time where it would be difficult to ascribe a country of origin, but in the case of your father's song, I'd say it was unequivocally Scottish.

Subject: RE: Nationality of songs
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jul 15 - 09:47 PM

Another example of this is the Stewart Ross song 'My Bonnie Maureen' recorded by Daniel O' Donnell (and various Scottish and Irish performers). This time my father wrote both the words and music and it is a completely original 1971 song.   Again the author/composer is Scottish, it was first recorded in Scotland - but later Daniel O' Donnell had a version out where it was performed in Irish style (a couple of word changes like Chapel instead of Church).   So, its a purely Scottish love song, but performed by an Irish singer with Irish musicians, and the name Maureen (often associated with Ireland).

Maureen was actually Scottish, an Inverness lass who was the fiancee of my brother. So, does the fact that Daniel O' Donnell recorded it suddenly turn it into an Irish song (when it is Scottish to me!)

Subject: Nationality issues of songs
From: GUEST,Alan Ross
Date: 12 Jul 15 - 09:23 PM

I just found that my late father's lyrics and arrangement of the Dark Island has been 'collected' and recorded by the Irish Traditional Music Association and made available over the Internet.

After posting documentation proving authorship etc which they kindly acknowledged, it has left me with the philosophical dilemma of whether it is the singer or the song that creates the nationality of the work.

My father was Scottish, the tune is Scottish, the song was written in Scotland, published in Scotland on sheet music and had national recordings by Scottish artists.   However, later there have been Irish recordings and performances - as my father's words don't mention any location for the Dark Island, so it can be applied for anywhere   

It's fine that they have at least given a courtesy credit and I am grateful for that.   But as cultural historians who are archiving the work and making it available, do they not owe an explanation of where the work originated from?   Am I being pedantic?

   Historians will now think that its an old Irish song, when it previously had nothing to do with it .   The Irish often seem to steal our modern works and claim them as their cultural property which as a Scot annoys the hell out of me. I am talking about a 1963 song, as Traditional as 'She Loves You'.   So should they not have mentioned that it is Scottish.. People will swear oh that's an old Irish folk song - no it isn't! Or is it the fact that it is an Irish singer performing it that should define the work and make it an Irish folk song?