BS: Stalin

Subject: RE: BS: Stalin
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jul 15 - 10:06 AM

which part of fuck off don't you understand?

The part where Dubliners spat on the rebels in 1916.
The part where hundreds of thousands of young Irishmen volunteered to fight to save Britain in two world wars.
The part where millions are still passionate about wanting to remain part of UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Stalin
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Jul 15 - 10:14 AM

but what if its telling you something which is demonstrably wrong.

if we had done what we could to help the Irish during the famine - don't you think people would have a racial memory.   if you talk to any older people from Holland - they are grateful that we liberated their country. peole remember. take a look at the Clancy Bros songbook - theres a phrase that sticks in my head from it - a phrase remembering an evening where the famine was brought up because the Irish were helping us out with cattle production - someone proposed every cow sent over should have 1847 with love written on it - and it says there was 'dark laughter and darker songs'.

When the country in question is writing a song like Athenry and a lot of them want it for their national anthem. A song that specifically mentions Trevelyan. Get real - we fucked up big time. and clinging to the mealy mouthed historians who probably never missed a sausage roll in his life - naturally it pisses people off.

Subject: RE: BS: Stalin
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 28 Jul 15 - 10:14 AM

Odds on you wouldn't dare say that in Dublin, Cork, Limerick etc

Subject: RE: BS: Stalin
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jul 15 - 10:21 AM

Al, if an historian says something demonstrably wrong, their peers descend on them and rip their folly to shreds.

Rag, what is wrong with speaking true?
Do you deny anything I just wrote?

Subject: RE: BS: Stalin
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Jul 15 - 10:28 AM

I think that the historians' version of history ...

WHICH historians, Keith? All historians worldwide, or just English ones?
Live ones, dead ones, or both? The ones who write for the tabloid press?
The ones whose works are available in bookshops? Or just the ones who agree with you? The ones whose hat size is larger than seven and five-eights?

Subject: RE: BS: Stalin
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 28 Jul 15 - 10:28 AM

I'm not denying anything but I would put money on it you wouldn't say that in Dublin, Galway, Ennis. Now ask yourself WHY you wouldn't say it.

Subject: RE: BS: Stalin
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Jul 15 - 11:00 AM

Very interesting piece in the spectator about history and historians. For those disinclined to follow the link, I paste the first paragraph and the closing statement.

No one alive now has any adult experience of the first world war, but still it shows no sign of respectable ossification; no armistice of opposing historians seems in prospect. It maintains a terrible, vivid, constantly mutable life. Like the French Revolution, its meaning shifts from generation to generation and according to which politician happens to be speaking at the moment.

...

Historical events are slippery and unpredictable facts in our lives, and don't tend to stay still. I mean, we haven't made up our minds about the Emperor Claudius yet, so it's very early for this book even to be contemplated.

Both comments significant to the discussion I think.

Subject: RE: BS: Stalin
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Jul 15 - 11:32 AM

"History is always written by the winners. When two cultures clash, the loser is obliterated, and the winner writes the history books-books which glorify their own cause and disparage the conquered foe. As Napoleon once said, 'What is history, but a fable agreed upon?" 
― Dan Brown, 


"History will be kind to me for I intend to write it." 
― Winston S. Churchill


"History doesn't repeat itself, but it does rhyme." 
― Mark Twain

Subject: RE: BS: Stalin
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Jul 15 - 11:36 AM

History is always written by the winners.

Puerile nonsense.

Subject: RE: BS: Stalin
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jul 15 - 11:50 AM

Now ask yourself WHY you wouldn't say it.

As we see here often enough, some people get irrational and angry when confronted with certain truths.
Was it true or not Rag?

Subject: RE: BS: Stalin
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Jul 15 - 11:55 AM

"A little nonsense now and then, 
Is cherished by the wisest men." 
― John August, 3 Engel für Charlie


"Don't for heaven's sake, be afraid of talking nonsense! But you must pay attention to your nonsense." 
― Ludwig Wittgenstein


"In the land of Gibberish, the man who makes sense, the man who speaks clearly, clearly speaks nonsense." 
― Jarod Kintz, This Book Has No Title

Subject: RE: BS: Stalin
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 28 Jul 15 - 12:10 PM

Look in the mirror and say those same words to yourself

I know you have a vision of history as YOU percive it, that is not necessarily the truth or even a partial truth.

Subject: RE: BS: Stalin
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Jul 15 - 01:30 PM

I know you have a vision of history as YOU percive it, that is not necessarily the truth or even a partial truth.

Hell, its not even reality.

Subject: RE: BS: Stalin
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Jul 15 - 01:51 PM

"The eye sees only what the mind is prepared to comprehend." 
― Robertson Davies

Subject: RE: BS: Stalin
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Jul 15 - 02:15 PM

Good one Ed.

Subject: RE: BS: Stalin
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jul 15 - 02:34 PM

Rag,
I know you have a vision of history as YOU percive it, that is not necessarily the truth or even a partial truth.

"Dubliners spat on the rebels in 1916."

That happened.
That is the truth.

"Hundreds of thousands of young Irishmen volunteered to fight to save Britain in two world wars."

That happened.
That is the truth.

"Millions are still passionate about wanting to remain part of UK."

That is still true.
That is the truth.

Subject: RE: BS: Stalin
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Jul 15 - 02:37 PM

Rest, rest, perturbed spirit!"
William Shakespeare 

Subject: RE: BS: Stalin
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Jul 15 - 03:15 PM

i'm not going to write an essay on each of those three apparent anomalies. mainly because i know you're smart enough to explain them yourself Keith. take that as a compliment.

as for historians metaphorically tearing each other to shreds.. you know and i know that doesn't mean bollocks outside page three of the TLS.

the only historian i've seen awarded his own section in WHSmiths is David Irving and readable though he is, the main propositions are tripe. if historical accuracy had meant shit - Jesus would have cheered up sick people with conjuring trcks - never mind raise the dead. just because some people believe it doesn't mean you have to.

the bad feeling between the countries is the stuff of song and legend - take theverse about the queen visiting Ireland in Mountains of Mourne, the last verse of the Rocky Road to Dublin....the hundreds of ballads about the croppies, 1916...they're still being written.

does none of this resonate with you - how far have i got to shove this gear lever till common sense kicks in.

Subject: RE: BS: Stalin
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Jul 15 - 03:42 PM

i know you're smart enough to explain them yourself Keith

Evidence?

Subject: RE: BS: Stalin
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 28 Jul 15 - 04:16 PM

No fairs fair. Keith (for once) is accurate in the very narrow things he has said. Many Dubliners in 1916 did not support the rising, many Irishmen fought for Britain in both wars and many people (especially in Ulster) want Ulster to remain part of the UK.

However in Keith world that means that the previous 750 years of relentless subjugation count for nought.

Subject: RE: BS: Stalin
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jul 15 - 06:36 PM

the bad feeling between the countries is the stuff of song and legend -

Very few from before 1916, and few of those actually from Ireland.

Subject: RE: BS: Stalin
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Jul 15 - 06:40 PM

Very few from before 1916, and few of those actually from Ireland.

Well, Raggy, Keith has just re-established himself - he's back to his old obnoxious blend of ignorance and idiocy.

Subject: RE: BS: Stalin
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 28 Jul 15 - 06:46 PM

Didn't think it would take very long

Subject: RE: BS: Stalin
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Jul 15 - 01:34 AM

take a look at that same Clancy bros songbook - i think you'll find you're wrong.

but if you think for a minute - you'll find you know hundreds of songs about the '98 rebellion, about Parnell, O'Connel, Nell flaherty's Goose, etc - the list is endless and i'm not an expert like Jim.

its not a case of anyone being obnoxious. its just a case of people giving credence to guys who have a living to make. so they say something outrageous.

The English government did all that could be expected of decent Christian folk to help the victims of the Irish famine. The first world war Generals made a fine job of organising their campaigns.

i got nothing against people talking bollocks for a living. it just amazes me that sensible people swallow the shit - when a few conversations with their grandparents would have told them about the 1st world war . and the smouldering resentment at the heart of all Irish culture might offer up a clue to all but the purblind.

of course if you never bothered listening to your grandparents - thought they had nowt to tell you cos you were young and you knew everything - you will have to rely on these poncy historians with their endess pursuit of a controversial angle to sell their latest book.

similarly if you don't read Joyce, Yeats, O'Casey, Behan - or listen to folk ballads. theres this newspaper that might suit you called the Daily Sport - it features stories about Elvis being on the moon. very well researched i'm sure.

Subject: RE: BS: Stalin
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jul 15 - 04:30 AM

Anti-British sentiment in song is rare before 20th Century.
We discussed it eight years ago here,
thread.cfm?threadid=104914

Subject: RE: BS: Stalin
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jul 15 - 05:02 AM

And this thread,
t: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: MartinRyan - PM
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 08:18 AM

Political songs about Irish struggle date back centuries, many of them never moving further than the towns and villages were the incidents took place

I know of no evidence for this, pre-20th century. Broadsheet ballads and songs/poems-set-to-music published by those associated with various political movements (Young Ireland, Fenianism etc.) - certainly; songs written in exile, yes. The tradition of local accounts of local events I associate with the War of Independence, Civil War and subsequent events.

Subject: RE: BS: Stalin
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 29 Jul 15 - 05:10 AM

Does it really matter when songs were written. Songs from the 16th/17th/18th/19th century were far less likely to have been written down much less printed on broadsheet. Remember the majority, native, Catholic Irish were repressed. Most did not have access to print, most were poorly educated having been denied an education. It is no surprise that few songs have stood the test of time.

And I know were you are going with this one Keith. Something like, they didn't write songs therefore nothing was wrong.

You really don't have a clue about history do you, you just like stirring things up so you can be the centre of attention.

Tell you what I go to Ireland at least once a year. How about we meet up in a bar in the west. I'll pay for all the food and drink and you carry on this conversation there.

Subject: RE: BS: Stalin
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Jul 15 - 06:37 AM

I know of no evidence for this, pre-20th century.

Of course you don't. But just because you're ignorant don't make it so.

Subject: RE: BS: Stalin
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Jul 15 - 06:46 AM

Wasn't the song "Roddy McCorley" about events in the 18th century? Just going off memory it is about the uprising in the late 1700s and the bridge on which he was hanged had been destroyed by anti-English rebels. If there was no anti-English feeling before the 20th century why were there rebels in the 18th?

Subject: RE: BS: Stalin
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 29 Jul 15 - 06:48 AM

Irish Ballads

Not all are rebel songs, not all were written pre 20th century. Have a look and see what you can find.

Subject: RE: BS: Stalin
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 29 Jul 15 - 06:56 AM

Not quite what the Professor said Dave, he said that anti British sentiment is rare pre 20th century song. I think he will then claim that anti British sentiment did not exist "per se"

As I have said he wants to be the centre of attention, if so, my offer to buying him a meal and pay for all his beer in a pub on the west coast of Ireland still stands. I am quite sure he will be the centre of so much attention.

Subject: RE: BS: Stalin
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Jul 15 - 07:33 AM

That is what I am puzzled by. If there was no anti-English feeling, why was there a rebellion?

Subject: RE: BS: Stalin
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jul 15 - 07:43 AM

Dave, Roddy was written around 1902.

Greg, that was not me but Martin Ryan, surely with Jim our most knowledgeable authority on Irish song.

Al, Rising of the Moon is about the 1798 rising, but contains no anti British sentiments or anything for or against British rule, even though by the time it was written the famine had happened as well!

Rag, I think you are agreeing with me, and contradicting Al, that there are few anti-British songs pre 20th Century.

Subject: RE: BS: Stalin
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 29 Jul 15 - 08:17 AM

So what you are trying to say Professor is that because the lyrics of the Rising of the Moon don't actually say we hate the f******g English it is because the Irish didn't actually hate the English
.Rising of the Moon explanation

What planet are you on.

And no I am not agreeing with you at all. You have been circumspect in all you have typed, read the list I posted.

Subject: RE: BS: Stalin
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Jul 15 - 08:58 AM

I am not asking about anti-English songs, I am asking about anti-English feelings. If there was no anti-English feeling before the 20th century, what were rebellions about in this list?

Subject: RE: BS: Stalin
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Jul 15 - 10:12 AM

Greg, that was not me but Martin Ryan

Sorry, Professor, but it WAS you: no quotation marks, no attribution & even if there were, YOU posted it.

Subject: RE: BS: Stalin
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jul 15 - 11:48 AM

Did not have time to respond properly before we went away
Definition of 'facile' = easily achieved but of little value - glib.
Keith:
You have had EXACTLY my feelings on Stalin
There is as little chance that I have ever supported him or his actions than there is of you having read Isaac Deutscher, as you claim.
If I eved did support him I would not feel the need to lie about it, unlike you on your claimed reading.
If you have one shred of evidence that I ever have - once again, feel free to point it out.
Will catch up on some of this garbage later
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Stalin
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jul 15 - 12:34 PM

Jim, I have the 3 books to hand now.
You were right about the spelling of Deutscher. Sorry.

The only book you specifically gave as having informed your views was Conquest's.
You said that there was not enough evidence to show Stalin guilty of deliberately starving the peasants in Ukraine and elsewhere.

On page 20 Conquest writes,
"As recent Soviet accounts put it, "this famine was organised by Stalin quite consciously and according to plan." "

So Jim, how do you support your claim, or is it just one of Jim's whims?

Subject: RE: BS: Stalin
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jul 15 - 12:47 PM

You people put one thing to me, and then berate me for not responding to something else.

I did want to discuss the famine.
I know little about it and am not read on it.
I do know that Britain's culpability is disputed by the historians.

It was suggested that I we should know because what bit of "F off" did I not understand.

I pointed out Dubliners spat on the rebels in 1916, hundreds of thousands of young Irishmen volunteered to fight to save Britain in two world wars and millions are still passionate about wanting to remain part of UK.

Someone said what about all the anti-British songs, so I pointed out that there were rather few before 1916 and fewer before 20th century.

Subject: RE: BS: Stalin
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jul 15 - 12:56 PM

Greg,
Sorry, Professor, but it WAS you: no quotation marks, no attribution & even if there were, YOU posted it.

I pasted in Martin's post.
Nothing of mine there.
The thread name was given for reference.
You were calling him ignorant (!) not me.

Subject: RE: BS: Stalin
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Jul 15 - 01:21 PM

Whatever you say,Professor. But do work on improving reading comprehension & logic, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Stalin
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jul 15 - 01:40 PM

"Jim, I have the 3 books to hand now."
I don't give a toss how many you have - if you had read Deutscher you would not have made some of the stupid statements you have made about historians
Simply not your sort of book - a - 600 page tome, masses of footnotes, and requiring some foreknowledge of the topic - part of a series of three on Soviet leaders
Knowing your preference for basing your knowledge on cut-'n-pastes - I simply don't believe you, and as you have no compunction about calling others liars and distorting their position - as you have mine, I have no compunction in saying so.
Conquest was very much a cold war historian who rewrote The Great Terror as ''The Great Purge' when he acquired access to Soviet archives - so cut''n-pastes don't do it, I'm afraid.
You have deliberately distorted my position on Stalin from the beginning -
I claimed, and still claim that there is no evidence that Stalin did what he did in order to remove his political enemies - he did no more than Britain did in Ireland - pushed though a policy of collectivization with disregard of the consequences - there has been no research into the Ukrainian famine to suggest otherwise and if you had read Deutscher, with all his footnotes and references, as you dishonestly claim to have done, you would know that this was the generally accepted line.

I too have Deutsher's book on hand - perhaps you'd like to tell me exactly what your copy says about the famine.
"I pointed out Dubliners spat on the rebels in 1916, "
I pointed this out to you two years ago - I also pointed out that this changed within months when the British brutishly shot the rebel leaders - making them martyrs and turning a small demonstration into a war of independence.
The idea that there were no anti British songs before the 20th century is utterly ludicrous - Anti British feeling goes back befoore the Flight of the Earls - The 1798 Rebellin, the Famine, The Fenian uprising, THE evictions,Land Wars ....
- are you mad?
your behavior toward other members contributions - your distortions and deliberate lying, has now got beyond a joke
JIm Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Stalin
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Jul 15 - 01:43 PM

So, basically, another pointless argument, Keith. There were anti British feelings before the 20th century. Some historians dispute that Britain was culpable. So what's new? As my link pointed out earlier, they are not yet agreed about the emperor Claudius! As to the songs, well, old Cecil himself did not start collecting English folk songs until the 20th century. That does not mean they did not exist before.

Subject: RE: BS: Stalin
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 29 Jul 15 - 01:52 PM

So professor, are you going to take me up on my offer to buy you a meal and pay for all your drinks in a bar on the West coast of Ireland?

At your convenience of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Stalin
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jul 15 - 02:06 PM

Rag, are you suggesting that your friends would do me violence for saying things that even you concede are true?
Why would they?

Jim, it is years since I read those two biographies and they were good in their time but long out of date (1967 and 1966)and superseded by information uncovered since then.
Deutscher dedicates his book thus, "I dedicate this book a link in our friendship to TAMARA.
Do you still doubt I have it?

Subject: RE: BS: Stalin
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jul 15 - 02:18 PM

I too have Deutsher's book on hand - perhaps you'd like to tell me exactly what your copy says about the famine.

"famine" is not in the index.
under "Ukraine collectivisation" p333 is referenced.
"Nadia Alliluyeva (his wife) spoke about the famine and discontent in the country and about the moral ravages which the terror had wrought on the party........
The same evening she committed suicide."

My copy was originally prices 63s.net.
Yours the same?

Subject: RE: BS: Stalin
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Jul 15 - 02:22 PM

Do you still doubt I have it?

No, we doubt that you've read it and understood it.

But it doesn't matter either way - he's dead, so by your own reckoning, he doesn't count.

Subject: RE: BS: Stalin
From: GUEST,Modette
Date: 29 Jul 15 - 02:28 PM

'No fairs fair. Keith (for once) is accurate in the very narrow things he has said. Many Dubliners in 1916 did not support the rising, many Irishmen fought for Britain in both wars and many people (especially in Ulster) want Ulster to remain part of the UK.'

Raggy, I don't think you're qualified to talk about Ireland if you think that the inhabitants of Cavan, Donegal and Monaghan want to stay in the UK.

Please use the term 'Ulster' correctly.

Modette

(Born in Donegal and proud of it)

Subject: RE: BS: Stalin
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 29 Jul 15 - 02:50 PM

"Correctly"?, Modette.

But unfortunately the name has two usages, both 'correct' within their context --

i -- One of the ancient Four Kingdoms of Ireland, Ulster, Leinster, Munster, and Connacht (anglice Connaught) --

within which meaning Donegal would have been subsumed;

ii -- An alternative name for the State of Northern Ireland created by the Partition of 1921 —

within which Donegal [some might think anomalously] was not included.

So it was not being used 'incorrectly' above, so much as in the other sense from that which you, as a Donegal native, would naturally prefer.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Stalin
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Jul 15 - 03:02 PM

have you ever spent an evening with someone who keeps saying - i don't know, i never seem to get a chance to buy a round - you blokes keep buying 'em.....

it doesn;t fool anyone in the pub.
and all this bollocks about the rich fuckers, many of them with huge Irish estates, not being able to help the starving folk of Ireland.

you're not that naive. or are you the one that never seems to get the chance to a round? maybe you identify with them emotionally.