BS: Stalin

Subject: RE: BS: Stalin
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 15 - 04:26 PM

Welcome back Al.

Subject: RE: BS: Stalin
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 15 - 04:24 PM

UKRAINIAN FAMINE

The dreadful famine that engulfed Ukraine, the northern Caucasus, and the lower Volga River area in 1932-1933 was the result of Joseph Stalin's policy of forced collectivization. The heaviest losses occurred in Ukraine, which had been the most productive agricultural area of the Soviet Union. Stalin was determined to crush all vestiges of Ukrainian nationalism. Thus, the famine was accompanied by a devastating purge of the Ukrainian intelligentsia and the Ukrainian Communist party itself. The famine broke the peasants' will to resist collectivization and left Ukraine politically, socially, and psychologically traumatized.

The policy of all-out collectivization instituted by Stalin in 1929 to finance industrialization had a disastrous effect on agricultural productivity. Nevertheless, in 1932 Stalin raised Ukraine's grain procurement quotas by forty-four percent. This meant that there would not be enough grain to feed the peasants, since Soviet law required that no grain from a collective farm could be given to the members of the farm until the government's quota was met. Stalin's decision and the methods used to implement it condemned millions of peasants to death by starvation. Party officials, with the aid of regular troops and secret police units, waged a merciless war of attrition against peasants who refused to give up their grain. Even indispensable seed grain was forcibly confiscated from peasant households. Any man, woman, or child caught taking even a handful of grain from a collective farm could be, and often was, executed or deported. Those who did not appear to be starving were often suspected of hoarding grain. Peasants were prevented from leaving their villages by the NKVD and a system of internal passports.

The death toll from the 1932-33 famine in Ukraine has been estimated between six million and seven million. According to a Soviet author, "Before they died, people often lost their senses and ceased to be human beings." Yet one of Stalin's lieutenants in Ukraine stated in 1933 that the famine was a great success. It showed the peasants "who is the master here. It cost millions of lives, but the collective farm system is here to stay."..

LOC

Subject: RE: BS: Stalin
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jul 15 - 04:18 PM

Why was he not a monster Jim?
How do you defend genocide?

Subject: RE: BS: Stalin
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Jul 15 - 02:57 PM

how the fall of communism impacted on my life

https://soundcloud.com/denise_whittle/trish

Subject: RE: BS: Stalin
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jul 15 - 02:47 PM

"A despot and a monster, directly responsible for the deaths of millions."
Is there much point in repeating what we've already said?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Stalin
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jul 15 - 02:34 PM

Dave,
I ask, for the umpteenth time, who are 'you people'?

As you said on 11 Jul 15 - 06:28 AM "Naming names would only cause personal disagreements, Keith."

Jim,
Of course he was a depot,

A despot and a monster, directly responsible for the deaths of millions.

Subject: RE: BS: Stalin
From: Raedwulf
Date: 24 Jul 15 - 12:28 PM

Teribus - when will you learn (never probably, I accept this) that sneering at people does not get your point across (mea culpa, I've been known to do it too, but only in extreme cases such as Gibbering Martian & Muppet, or so I plead)?

I have been here... long enough. I often don't agree with you. Generally, though, your arguments do have a better basis than most, even when I disagree. And then you start sneering & I think...

Cut out the sneering. Anyone that wants to be Cassandra is not worth listening to. You can, and often do, present information well worth thinking about. But if all people see is "Oh, it's that twat again..." you achieve nothing. There's no point in being right (even if you are right) if, like Cassandra, no-one listens to you...

You're perfectly capable of making a good argument. There are many who will disagree simply because your name is on it (more fool them). You have no need to hand them superfluous ammunition. Think on that.

Subject: RE: BS: Stalin
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jul 15 - 12:21 PM

"Ah Jim if only you actually practiced what you preach and applied the same yardstick to those you disapprove of, instead of only applying it to those you seek to defend."
Where have I ever "defended" anybody and how?
Nor have I ever claimed he "achieved anything" - in fact, the opposiet, if you get somebody to read what I have written - Keith maybe- on second thoughts..., maybe not!
Don't really expect and answer to this
Do you still believe that your smarmy superciliousness persuades people to take any notice of what you say - seems to be an inbuilt trait
Try putting up facts instead of making pronouncements.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Stalin
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Jul 15 - 12:01 PM

"people like you use that fact to write off everything that was achieved at that time and why he was what he was and why he was where he was "

Ah Jim if only you actually practiced what you preach and applied the same yardstick to those you disapprove of, instead of only applying it to those you seek to defend.

But pray tell what did he achieve? Please don't say the defeat of Fascism, he only the Communists in the USSR only managed to do that by appealing to the Russian people to save and defend Mother Russia not save and defend what they had up to that point "achieved".

Subject: RE: BS: Stalin
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 15 - 11:51 AM

"Of course he was a depot"

Stalin was at Home Depot?

Subject: RE: BS: Stalin
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jul 15 - 11:31 AM

Wsating your time Dave - likke trying to reda a story from an exercise book - there's nothing there.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Stalin
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Jul 15 - 11:02 AM

I ask, for the umpteenth time, who are 'you people'? Not that I expect a straight answer but everything I have said about Stalin on this thread is true.

Subject: RE: BS: Stalin
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jul 15 - 11:01 AM

"I was responding to your assertion that Stalin was not a despotic monster"
I wasn't - I said it was facile to write him off as one - it's far more complicated than that
Of course he was a depot, but people like you use that fact to write off everything that was achieved at that time and why he was what he was and why he was where he was - unfortunately, to understand and discuss that you need to read something rather than scoop up something from the net to win prizes.
It really is pointless to try and carry on a discussion with people who do not have the interest to do that, as you have shown yourself to be often enough.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Stalin
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 15 - 10:59 AM

These are the kind of people idolized by today's new "leftists" Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Stalin
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jul 15 - 10:50 AM

I was responding to your assertion that Stalin was not a despotic monster.

You people are very good at making assertions, but you can not support them.
They are just opinions based on nothing.
Whims from empty heads.

Stalin WAS a despotic monster, and I have provided ample evidence for that assertion on the other thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Stalin
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jul 15 - 10:25 AM

"I do not "write him off," but he was "a despotic monster.""
Wasn't responding to you Keith - you haven't said anything
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Stalin
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jul 15 - 08:52 AM

I do not "write him off," but he was "a despotic monster."

Subject: RE: BS: Stalin
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jul 15 - 08:41 AM

"Drawing a moral equivalence in this way is a logical fallacy."
Weeeell...!!!
Here you have two political leaders with a contempt for democracy and prepared to bypass that democracy to obtain objectives, the basic different being that Thatcher was shackled with existing (nods toward) democracy, while Russia was still a melting pot with an great objective - one was seeking to bring changes to a politically primitive country, while the other was fighting to keep things as they were by over-riding hard won rights.
I believe it is possible to compare them, but only by putting them in their individual contexts.
Stalin was a complex character - a failed seminary who served as a minor minister in the early Bolshevik Government and, somewhat unaccountably, was placed at the head of the Soviet Union at Lenin's death, when it was apparent that there were others far more qualified than him to hold the job.
There are several conspiracy theories regarding Lenin's death and Stalin's appointment - little wonder!
It's a little facile to just write off Stalin as a despotic monster - the period is a fascinating one and well worthy of examination and plenty of literature to draw on.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Stalin
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 15 - 08:22 AM

Moral equivalence is a form of equivocation and a fallacy of relevance often used in political debates. It seeks to draw comparisons between different, often unrelated things, to make a point that one is just as bad as the other or just as good as the other. It may be used to draw attention to an unrelated issue by comparing it to a well-known bad event, in an attempt to say one is as bad as the other. Or, it may be used in an attempt to claim one isn't as bad as the other by comparison. Drawing a moral equivalence in this way is a logical fallacy.

Subject: RE: BS: Stalin
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jul 15 - 06:26 AM

You mean Thatcher, friend and defender of mass-murderer Pinochet? That Thatcher?

Subject: RE: BS: Stalin
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 15 - 03:47 AM

Nice to see a thread where Thatcher could be compared in a favourable light.


Just.

Subject: RE: BS: Stalin
From: Fossil
Date: 24 Jul 15 - 03:02 AM

"didn't set out to rid the earth of 'undesirables'." Oh yes, he damn well did. Define undesirables? Anyone, anyone at all, who threatened him in any way whatsoever.

Starting with the usual trilogy, (just like Hitler) gypsies. Jews and homosexuals, expanding to political enemies, army generals, army people generally, intelligence services, bureaucrats, whole states full of people who were being a bit inconvenient, officials, university professors, you name it, he topped them. Or shuffled them off to the the gulags.

Worse, (than Hitler?) or better. Who could possibly say. Except God, and he's being a bit quiet on the subject of tyrants, lately...

Subject: RE: BS: Stalin
From: Ebbie
Date: 24 Jul 15 - 02:07 AM

I know they say that Stalin murdered more people than Hitler. However, he also had more years in which to do so. And he didn't set out to rid the earth of 'undesirables'.

That's worse.

Discuss?

Subject: RE: BS: Stalin
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 24 Jul 15 - 12:27 AM

Survey Theodolite And Laser for Integrated Navigation

Subject: RE: BS: Stalin
From: LadyJean
Date: 24 Jul 15 - 12:13 AM

It is a long and complicated story as to why my father wound up spending time with the Russian Army in 1945. The fact is he did. He was impressed with their capacity for booze, and their willingness to drink anything alcoholic. He was amused that they took a sink from a house on the theory that it would supply them with clean water. He also referred to the man in question, always, as "Old Joe Stalin". Though I don't think they ever met.

Subject: RE: BS: Stalin
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 23 Jul 15 - 10:48 PM

♪ ♪ ♪

Stalin, Stalin, pretty momma dontcha tell on me
'Cause I'm Stalin back to my same old used to be

♪ ♪ ♪

Subject: RE: BS: Stalin
From: Rapparee
Date: 23 Jul 15 - 09:32 PM

This is or was a society for clothing nude animals.... I'll let you search for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Stalin
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 15 - 04:45 PM

Brought my cholesterol down.

Subject: RE: BS: Stalin
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 23 Jul 15 - 02:53 PM

"STALIN" is the acronym for the Society to Annihilate Leopards in Nebraska. It is not a very popular organization because (A) there are no leopards in Nebraska other than those in zoos,(B) its acronym is the name of one of history's most notorious despots, a fact which makes attracting new members a bit problematic, and (C) it is the totally fictitious creation of some guy with too much time on his hands.

Subject: RE: BS: Stalin
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 15 - 12:27 PM

Worse than Hitler.

Subject: RE: BS: Stalin
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jul 15 - 10:40 AM

Also instal and in last.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Stalin
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jul 15 - 10:35 AM

Prokofiev died on the same day as Stalin, within the same hour. This overshadowed the composer's death, just as Stalin had overshadowed and persecuted him in life.

Subject: RE: BS: Stalin
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Jul 15 - 09:35 AM

It's an anagram of St Nail.

Subject: BS: Stalin
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 23 Jul 15 - 09:19 AM

Here you are, off you go.