BS: Killing things for fun

Subject: BS: Killing things for fun
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 31 Jul 15 - 03:33 PM

There has been much in the press in recent days about the killing of Cecil the lion by a Minnesota dentist. This article in the Guardian links to a photo album, produced by a company that leads hunting expeditions, of the dentist posing next to photos of various slain animals including elk, bison, lions and a rhino. According to the article, the same company advertises its services with photos of hunters next to elephants and polar bears.

Now, as an omnivore, I accept that my consumption of meat has led to the demise of countless animals in my lifetime. I intend to carry on eating meat and the justification is that it tastes good. I also accept that there is a need to cull certain species, either to maintain a balance or for pest control. Poachers are an evil that we could well do without but at least I understand their motives – they are in it for the money.

What I don't understand is trophy hunting. What is it about setting up an ambush and letting fly an arrow from a high-tech bow or blasting away with a rifle that gives some people such a thrill. Does destroying a member of an endangered species enhance a man's private parts? Earlier this year I went on a safari in Tanzania. None of the animals moved very fast. I am not a great photographer but I got some great shots of all sorts of wildlife. It wouldn't have been a great display of skill to have killed something if I had replaced my camera with a gun

I've heard the arguments that money raised from hunting licenses can be ploughed back into conservation. That may explain why the authorities are prepared to allow hunting but it doesn't explain why people want to kill things for fun in the first place.

I know we have some hunters here on Mudcat. Perhaps you could explain it to me because I am at loss to understand why, otherwise.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Killing things for fun
From: DMcG
Date: 31 Jul 15 - 03:49 PM

Simon King suggested on the radio that the fees from hunting licences is a bit of a red herring because income from the hunt on that one day is roughly equivalent to the income Cecil generated every five days over thirteen years through photographic safaris. That's a simplification of course, but it means you have to be very careful of financial claims.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing things for fun
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 31 Jul 15 - 03:52 PM

I said in a letter to a newspaper this morning that I just cannot get my head round what anybody wants to kill a lion for...

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Killing things for fun
From: gnu
Date: 31 Jul 15 - 03:57 PM

I hunted for many years. Started carrying a gun legally at 14 but illegally went into the woods alone until I was 16 near my house for food for the table. Later in life, I kept on hunting because it was beyond tranquil to be way back in the bush and I ate what I took... I returned what I didn't use to the spot I got it. As for trophies? No.

I won't tell you why I quit hunting but I will say that if I had carried a camera/camcorder for those years, I would be a far "richer" man.

RIP Cecil.

The only thing I can say about the guy that killed him? He's got nice teeth. The fucker.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing things for fun
From: GUEST,#
Date: 31 Jul 15 - 05:05 PM

Ditto what gnu said with a few differences in age and place, etc. Hunting was never fun for me. It was deadly serious and about putting food on someone's table. Never took a dime for it and never enjoyed it because I hit what I aimed at and if I shot at it I killed it. As for Palmer (the dentist0, imo he's an asshole and not the type of 'hunter' I'd ever associate with--nor to my knowledge ever have. As for keeping trophies, I don't understand why people do that. Aim, fire and physics does the rest. Doesn't take any macho bravery for that.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing things for fun
From: DMcG
Date: 31 Jul 15 - 05:56 PM

My daughter just posted a link to a news report praising a guy who has just caught a seven foot, 400 lb grouper, questioning the difference.

Hauling in the fish was much harder work, naturally, but is the only difference really that we care about lions and don't care about fish?

Subject: RE: BS: Killing things for fun
From: michaelr
Date: 31 Jul 15 - 06:18 PM

I take issue with the OP's use of "things", which should be reserved for bugs and spiders, if used at all when referring to living animals. Higher-order species, particularly mammals, are comprised of distinct individuals with perceptible personality traits.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing things for fun
From: Rapparee
Date: 31 Jul 15 - 06:26 PM

I have hunted and come from a hunting family. We ate what we killed and were thankful for it -- to whomever or whatever you care to insert.

We did not kill for fun or for trophies.

If you really, really feel that you must "prove" yourself by killing a lion or any other animal, do it with a spear. No lights, no bait except yourself, no backup rifle -- you, a spear, and the animal.

As for the dentist, sentence him to 20 years fixing the teeth of poor people in Zimbabwe for free (he pays for the materials, etc.).

Subject: RE: BS: Killing things for fun
From: Janie
Date: 31 Jul 15 - 06:26 PM

Or we don't care about fish and other lions, but do care about this particular lion?

I think the notion of 'trophy hunting' is rather abhorrent to many of us, regardless of the species. This particular incident has drawn remarkable attention because the lion was 'known,' and does call attention to the exploitive nature of trophy hunting in a way that many people connect with.

I don't think it is OK for the dentist to have to go into hiding and for him to receive death threats because he happens to 1. Live in the age of the internet and social media and 2. Live in an age where all news media is more interested in focusing on and even creating sensationalism than actually reporting on real news.

I don't think there is a moral line between the primitive drives that lead some one to trophy hunt and the primitive drive that is obviously very common that results in "mob" mentality and destruction.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing things for fun
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 31 Jul 15 - 06:33 PM

"Killing non-human, mammalian and other higher-order individuals for fun" just isn't as snappy and probably has too many letters for a Mudcat thread title.

DMcG, I don't think there is any difference. Even if Cecil had not been a "celebrity" lion, I would have still have found it odd that someone would shoot him for no good purpose. I have the same reaction to people who persecute fish.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Killing things for fun
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jul 15 - 07:00 PM

I suppose Cecil is much like other dominant male lions that are not celebrities. If one of them had been killed we wouldn't have heard about it. So, because of the publicity, killing Cecil may be more benefical to lions that killing another lion.

I don't 'get' what people do it for and I see no reason to view people who kill lower order animals for personal satisfaction differently. That includes crushing harmless beatles, which I have seen people do. A beatle is more easily replaced and probably less sentient than a lion, but I judging the killer, not that what is killed.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing things for fun
From: gnu
Date: 31 Jul 15 - 07:37 PM

Hopefully, this will spur governments to try to stop the transportation of "trophies". Having said that, if a hunter kills an animal and intends to use the whole animal, that is, eat it, I can't say no to that. To do so would be hypocritical. Now, I know that is open to lots of definition and whatever but that's my last comment.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing things for fun
From: Ed T
Date: 31 Jul 15 - 08:02 PM

When I was young, growing up on a rural farm, I killed things and I hunted and fished for pleasure. But, I stopped doing that in my late teens. I don't even kill bugs, unless faced with a harmful infestation and there is no other recourse.

I have no personal need to cause unecessary directly hurt to animals. I dont normally judge others who hunt. But, I do hope hunters would someday think it out and find another way to enjoy wildlife.

However, as I am not a vegetarian, and animals are killed on my behalf. I do my best to purchase food (meat) from sources that treat animals humanely. However, it is difficult to check all sources, especially when eating out. I am fairly sure that products I eat are from sources where less favourable conditions exist for these animals.

My intent is not to preach to others, and recognize not everyone see things the same way. But, this is a life course that I have chosen. ( Nice to hear of your viewpoint on this matter, gnu).

Subject: RE: BS: Killing things for fun
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 31 Jul 15 - 08:12 PM

...is the only difference really that we care about lions and don't care about fish?

The fish was not killed. It was caught, photographed, and released unharmed.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing things for fun
From: Janie
Date: 31 Jul 15 - 08:29 PM

Have listened to a number of interesting discussions this week about media coverage and social reaction to this story.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing things for fun
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jul 15 - 08:40 PM

Big game hunting is wrong - it's not even a sport.   Whilst, I have no empathy for hunters... extremists are in danger of over-reacting to the Cecil case with lynch mob mentality. The man involved has already been punished financially and emotionally. Who's going to say when enough is enough? People now want his hide.   Social media won't let go of the guy. Is a huge mistake in taking a lion's life worth a human being's existence?

Subject: RE: BS: Killing things for fun
From: Janie
Date: 31 Jul 15 - 09:32 PM

While rationally there is no more reason to value the life of a human over the life of a lion, I otherwise agree with you guest of 8:40pm.

Would be a comfort, I suppose, if one could attribute the "lynch mob mentality" to "extremists." The bald reality is that mob mentality is not extreme, i.e., not unusual. The scent of 'blood', actually or metaphorically, turns many animals, humans included into....

Subject: RE: BS: Killing things for fun
From: Ed T
Date: 31 Jul 15 - 09:45 PM

"The man involved has already been punished"

Possibly, many expressing their views have a broader target than this dentist (I have not seen anything beyond this, though some views seem to be more vivid than others)?

At a minimum, the resulting wide expressions of displeasure has sent a message as to what many in society considers unacceptable behaviour.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing things for fun
From: Rumncoke
Date: 31 Jul 15 - 10:21 PM

The thing which really gets me is that he didn't kill the lion outright, quick and clean - no, he fires an arrow at it, wounds it and the poor beast then goes through days of agony, and even at the end it is killed using a shotgun.

A lion is a large, muscular animal, it needs some serious hardware to dispatch it properly - which obviously this guy did not have.

The man is a fool, and either stupid or sadistic.

By killing a lion with a pride he will have opened the way for a male of lower quality to take over and kill the cubs.

He should be found and sent to face justice in court along with those who assisted in the torture and killing of a national treasure.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing things for fun
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jul 15 - 10:34 PM

Don't forget although what he has done is very wrong - he has already lost a fortune in his income, and who knows how long his dental practice will have to stay shut for. He'll be financially paying a price for a long time to come.    There will be equally nutty people out there who will want to cause him physical harm... which is just stupid. No doubt he rues the day he took up hunting.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing things for fun
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Aug 15 - 12:54 AM

.'The fish was released unharmed "

Maybe, maybe not. I'd be surprised if it was undamaged by the experience, most likely around its
mouth

The distinction people have drawn between hinting for food and hunting for fun seems valid to me and for me applies to fishing as well. I think we do have different attitudes to photos of people standing next to big game they have killed and next to marlins and so on.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing things for fun
From: Ebbie
Date: 01 Aug 15 - 01:46 AM

Janie, at 06:26 PM, although it is seldom that I disagree with you, I do in this case. Vehemently. I eat meat and have no problem whatever in hunters taking game - and fish, for that matter - for food. The same person, beyond a certain age, who 'takes' an animal for a trophy is an unenlightened, unfeeling idiot of a person.

Why the hell wouldn't a photograph serve the same purpose? I would love to see walls decorated with glossies of healthy, happy animals taken in the wild. Surely there is more skill involved.

I don't care about Palmer- there are hundreds like him out there and more being bred all the time.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing things for fun
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Aug 15 - 01:47 AM

There is also the pecking order of life forms. Creatures with more intelligence and social existences, are obviously easier to empathise with. Yet, people have always killed other creatures - even those with complex brains - for 'sport' or material needs. Some people get the empathy and others don't. I couldn't harm a fish or bird, yet to others it's an almost non-thinking life form. I'm a hypocrite though, because I am not a vegetarian, but that's because I cut myself off from the killing and preparation process.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing things for fun
From: Ebbie
Date: 01 Aug 15 - 02:58 AM

Today I TV surfed past a program? commercial? where a hunter enthusiastically tells his buddies: OK! Let's go and kill something.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing things for fun
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Aug 15 - 04:06 AM

put this on mudcat a couple days ago. my contribution to the discussion


https://soundcloud.com/denise_whittle/ballad-of-wa

get about as much support round here as a pork pie shop in Tel Aviv.
no doubt the Watersons have some 14th century plainsong that tackles the subject in a more mature way.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing things for fun
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Aug 15 - 04:13 AM

That link is broken, Al. Hope this one is better

Subject: RE: BS: Killing things for fun
From: GUEST,Eddie1 - Sans cookie as ever
Date: 01 Aug 15 - 04:28 AM

I guess I find it strange that so much indignation and protest can be expressed over the cruel and pointless death of one lion, by people who stay strangely silent about the deaths of men, women and children daily in too many places in the world.

Eddie

Subject: RE: BS: Killing things for fun
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 01 Aug 15 - 10:55 AM

Of course, lets add some false equivalence now, compare unrelated topics and find the current one lacking. Good addition [not] to the conversation.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing things for fun
From: GUEST,Arkie
Date: 01 Aug 15 - 12:09 PM

Some sport. Drag the bait to draw the animal. Shoot it. I guess the sport comes from wounding the animal and then having to hunt it down for the kill.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing things for fun
From: GUEST,Musket lowering his head quietly
Date: 01 Aug 15 - 12:38 PM

I have met many trophy hunters. There again, I have regulated the forensic end of the mental health services so of course I have met many people who took trophies from their victims after they killed them. Locks of hair, pieces of their clothing, even one disturbed man who cut off the nipples of his female victims and penis of his male ones.

It isn't a case of not being specist or whether you get upset over this but not about the latest Israeli atrocity. But something else.

Not the fluffy lion, not the people killed by these psychopaths but the psychopaths themselves.

The question is; why do we tolerate the idea of killing for fun when it is dumb animals but scratch our heads over the mental state of trophy hunters who prefer human prey?

Subject: RE: BS: Killing things for fun
From: Ebbie
Date: 01 Aug 15 - 01:15 PM

"The question is; why do we tolerate the idea of killing for fun when it is dumb animals but scratch our heads over the mental state of trophy hunters who prefer human prey?"

Doubtless due to my mental capacities, I make no sense out of this sentence.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing things for fun
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Aug 15 - 02:09 PM

Be interesting to see if the U.S. agree to extradite this thug.
A fitting solution
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Killing things for fun
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Aug 15 - 03:58 PM

Instant Karma! " A man from Texas has been wounded after a bullet he fired at an armadillo ricocheted and hit him in the head". BBC Ceefax Today. It only injured his jaw. The Armadillo's fate is unknown (he fired three shots at it). That is dumb behaviour!

Subject: RE: BS: Killing things for fun
From: Rapparee
Date: 01 Aug 15 - 04:24 PM

Why, do you suppose, was he shooting an armadillo? If your're not going to eat it or save your life or the life of another, why shoot it?

For that matter, how did you get into the situation of having to save your life in the first place? Bears, mountain lions, and most other critters will not attack if they know you're coming (that's why you make a bunch of noise in bear country). I love the solitude and silence of the wild, but not at the expense of my well being or the well being of an animal who lives there.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing things for fun
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Aug 15 - 05:15 PM

Is "I am going to eat it" always an acceptable reason to kill wildlife under any circumstance?

Subject: RE: BS: Killing things for fun
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Aug 15 - 05:16 PM

Ceefax?

I remember that! The snag is, it went tits up years ago.

Just like owning guns or drinking and driving did as things respectable people got up to.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing things for fun
From: GUEST,#
Date: 01 Aug 15 - 06:42 PM

The still have fox hunts in the UK?

Subject: RE: BS: Killing things for fun
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Aug 15 - 06:53 PM

Ah yes, "The unspeakable in pursuit of the inedible".

Been banned, Bruce, but there's a current move to bring it back.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing things for fun
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Aug 15 - 10:18 PM

What about us Brits, our shooting and hunting party tradition which the Royals and snobs have always been a part of. Stag/deer Grouse fox. fishing etc. But it generates jobs and money for the local and national economy, so people get up in arms if you suggest banning it altogether. Tourism, jobs and economics always goes further than morals and principles!

Subject: RE: BS: Killing things for fun
From: GUEST,#
Date: 01 Aug 15 - 11:06 PM

The NRA would agree completely, Guest. We do similar in Canada, so you're not alone.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing things for fun
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 02 Aug 15 - 02:01 AM

Would killing people for another country's 'national interests' (like making more money) count, in this category??

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Killing things for fun
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 02 Aug 15 - 03:34 AM

I imagine that bear baiting and cock fighting generated jobs and money for the local economy but I don't hear much call for their return.

The same goes for throwing Christians to lions, though I suspect that there are some here on Mudcat who would welcome that. ;-)

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Killing things for fun
From: michaelr
Date: 02 Aug 15 - 04:26 AM

Better than throwing lions to dentists.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing things for fun
From: GUEST,Camojohn
Date: 02 Aug 15 - 05:13 AM

We, as a country, have become very civilised over the last half-decade. as such, it is easy to become divorced from any interaction with animals yet retain or culture strong opinions on how other people should interact with them.
Go and look at any discussion about Halal slaughter and you will find vegetarians and lefty-liberals actually defending the practice, simply because the opponents appear to be those who are politically-opposed to them. As far as I am concerned, as long as we allow beef to be killed in this country by having their throats slit whilst still conscious and not stunned before or during the process, all the opinions about what some horrible unethical hunter has or has not done, are devoid of any moral justification. We should all be ashamed that such slaughter is happening 7 days a week here, putting animals through more distress than some 'human-named' animal in Africa, which we couldn't do anything about if we wanted to.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing things for fun
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Aug 15 - 05:58 AM

i agree Camojohn - that's shameful way to slaughter animals.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing things for fun
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Aug 15 - 06:37 AM

putting animals through more distress than some 'human-named' animal in Africa More ? How long was Cecil wounded for before being killed. ?

Subject: RE: BS: Killing things for fun
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Aug 15 - 07:18 AM

Well, the problem with that stance, Camjojohn (and indeed Eddie1 earlier) is that it ties together things that are not related. One can be in favour or opposed to hunting for fun completely independently to whether one is pro or anti halal methods of killing for food. The only interpretation I can make of the all the opinions about what some horrible unethical hunter has or has not done, are devoid of any moral justification phrase is that you do not think people can object to killing Cecil for fun unless they first object to halal for food, and I see no reason that should be so. Why not, for example, might some people get worked up about Cecil first and only then begin to think about halal?

Subject: RE: BS: Killing things for fun
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Aug 15 - 12:17 PM

The factory farming of animals is disgraceful, but we do it because we can and because we get our food more cheaply by using these methods.

Most people don't even think about how our food is produced, isn't this just as bad as "enjoying" the killing of animals?

Subject: RE: BS: Killing things for fun
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Aug 15 - 01:23 PM

isn't this just as bad as "enjoying" the killing of animals?

No.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing things for fun
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Aug 15 - 02:00 PM

Why Greg, factory farming is practiced on a much larger scale and causes much more stress and cruel treatment.

Is it the "enjoyment" that you object to, if so humanity enjoys myriad disgusting and demeaning things without censure.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing things for fun
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Aug 15 - 04:19 PM

I have seen a sheep killed by having its throat cut. It was calmly eating grass while ceremonial words were said by the men of the community and very dead seconds later. I think it got a better deal than Cecil and was shown more respect by its killers, who then ate it. It may have got a better deal than being loaded onto a trailer and driven for to a modern non-halal slaughterhouse. I am certain it got the quickest death that the community were able to provide.

It was not a particularly nice experience as an observer, but it tasted good.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing things for fun
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Aug 15 - 05:36 PM

It just occurred to me that the title of this thread can logically be shortened: 'Killing is Fun'.

Yikes.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing things for fun
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Aug 15 - 05:45 PM

No. I think 'things' excludes humans. Regarding animals as 'things' was discussed above.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing things for fun
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 02 Aug 15 - 06:08 PM

The thread title could logically be shortened to 'Killing for Fun' but not 'Killing is Fun'.

The opening post asked the question as to why on earth some people, such as the dentist, think that killing IS fun. As I said then, I am at a loss to understand why. Though it has provoked some interesting discussion, nothing in this thread to date has made it any clearer.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Killing things for fun
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Aug 15 - 06:08 PM

if so humanity enjoys myriad disgusting and demeaning things without censure

I see - so that excuses it? Not.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing things for fun
From: Rapparee
Date: 02 Aug 15 - 08:55 PM

I do think that you folks ought to take a look at shechitah, or for that matter the various rituals of "Christian" animal slaughter.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing things for fun
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Aug 15 - 01:08 PM

But those two, whilst they are methods of killing animals, don't involve 'fun'.
The thread, IIUC, is about why some sub-humans get 'fun' out of killing - in particular, killing at a distance with little risk to their own safety.
You're comparing apples and bananas.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing things for fun
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Aug 15 - 01:59 PM

You're comparing apples and bananas.

Agreed. But they are responses to GUEST,Camojohn's post above that brought Halal slaughter into it. I am not sure what point Raparree was making but following his suggestion brought me to the phrase The animal must be killed "with respect and compassion"

Respect and compassion is what the sheep I described being killed quickly while grazing received. The personal satisfation of a hunter led to the lion being wounded then trailed for hours before being killed.

I don't know what Camojohn's mention of Cecil having a human name is about. To me it suggests respect on the part of those who enjoyed watching him in life and compassion from those angered by the way of his death.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing things for fun
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Aug 15 - 02:18 PM

no me Tarzan! She chitah! umph ! umph!

Subject: RE: BS: Killing things for fun
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Aug 15 - 02:22 PM

I cannot see a justification for killing for fun.

Where killing is necessary (for food or in war) it should be done as humanely as possible.

I cannot accept that killing for religious purposes (some belief systems still do this) as such is justifiable but I am told that every part of the animal (I don't know about whether human sacrifices are still going on for religious purposes) is used. So are such killings as justified (if at all) as if they were for food as such?

I have seen some suggestions that kosher and halal slaughter actually result in the loss of consciousness faster than western stunning and so engender less suffering. I do not know whether that is true but some countries disagree in that they have banned both kosher and halal slaughter.

I am told that animals (for example dogs) slaughtered in African animist belief systems are executed as cleanly as if by the guillotine - the head is off completely in one stroke (usually of a very sharp knife wielded by a very old woman). I am not sure that I believe that.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing things for fun
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Aug 15 - 07:52 PM

I have to agree with Ebbie, back at 01 Aug 15 - 01:46 AM.

When I was a teenager, I used to go fishing in Puget Sound for salmon with my Dad. Dad was born and raised on San Juan Island in the north Puget Sound area, and that was a standard activity up there to put food on the table. We always ate the fish we caught. My Dad was a wizard at broiling salmon steaks in the oven. De-e-e-elicous!! Few things more toothsome than freshly caught salmon.

I had occasion to spend some time in Denver in the mid-Fifties and a friend took me to meet a friend of his. When I walked into the guy's living room, I was astounded at the number and variety of trophy heads he had mounted on the walls. Several heads over the fireplace, but pride of place was across from the fireplace. A huge moose head, complete with a rack that spanned five-and-a half or six feet!

He'd shot it, of course, as he had all the other animals festooning the walls. He proudly announced that it was a record Wyoming moose.

It looked like a locomotive with antlers had crashed through his wall! I would much preferred to have seen a magnificent animal like that roaming free in the wild.

I had another friend who had a Crosman CO2 pellet pistol. One day, there was a plague of flies in his house (someone had left a screen door open, and it was a warm, summer day). He was tired of chasing them with a fly-swatter, but he discovered that the Crosman, loaded with a CO2 cartridge—minus pellets—fired a jet of gas strong enough that, if it would have put a pellet within an inch or two of a fly—at about ten feet—it was strong enough to kill the fly.

He was having a helluvalot of fun sitting in his recliner and taking pot shots at flies.

His wife drew the line when she caught him holding the screen door open to let in more targets….

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Killing things for fun
From: frogprince
Date: 03 Aug 15 - 11:04 PM

Don Firth; ROFLMAO

Subject: RE: BS: Killing things for fun
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Aug 15 - 11:47 PM

I suppose no matter what our own views, some people will always get the thrill of the chase, or the thrill of the kill. Chasing something that moves, dominating it - and then despatching their catch and keeping a trophy. Some anglers sometimes avoid the kill part. Others might want to show their prowess at hitting or catching moving targets with firearms/bows etc.   Isn't it really like the high some get with computer games, but in real life for the few who enjoy that type of thing? We are all primeval animal killers underneath, just the majority of us channel it elsewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing things for fun
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Aug 15 - 04:27 AM

No we don't, we just put the wholesale slaughter of farm animals out of our minds.....because we want cheap food.

One of my sons and his wife, stopped eating meat completely years ago.
now they are disgusted by the sight of packaged supermarket meat.

Many people have no idea what the bloody red lump really is.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing things for fun
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Aug 15 - 05:03 AM

During the foxhunting debate 10 years ago (or whenever it was) I always wondered how many of the "urban left against the toffs" demonstrators went back to the cities and tucked into ham and eggs without thinking about animal welfare.

The smaller numbers in the campaign for the long haul probably are more consistant.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing things for fun
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Aug 15 - 10:22 AM

The thread title is "Killing Things For Fun", not "Killing Things For Food".

Are those who appear to confuse those two issue being deliberately obtuse, or are they just TCs?

Subject: RE: BS: Killing things for fun
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Aug 15 - 02:09 PM

The problem, Backwoodsman, is that some of the more hard-charging animal rights advocates don't know the difference, and equate the two.

My friend's friend with the record moose head, wasn't hunting for food, he was hunting for trophies. A sort of "head-hunter." Did he eat the rest of the moose? That never came up in the conversation.

I see nothing wrong with hunting or fishing if it's purpose is to put food on the table. A bit more effort involved than buying meat at the supermarket and letting others do the killing for you.

By the way, Barbara and I eat very little meat, but do consume eggs, milk, other animal products. We have a couple of friends who are proudly vegan (no animal products at all). At one holiday dinner, they brought a chocolate cake they were very proud of, made with no eggs, milk, or other animal products at all. We all sat around shoveling it in and politely going "Yum yum!!"

But it was really gag-worthy!!

-----

Another dimension to the "animal rights" aspect: dangerous animals.

I was born and spent my early years (up until age nine) in Pasadena, California. There are black widow spiders there: quite poisonous! Whenever anyone spotted a black widow spider in the house, it called for an all-out hunt armed with fly swatters until we found it and dispatched it!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Killing things for fun
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Aug 15 - 02:23 PM

Don, I'm with you - I have no problem with the principle of killing for food - I'm a carnivore, after all! But I completely fail to understand the kind of mentality that gets enjoyment from the act of killing.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing things for fun
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Aug 15 - 03:38 PM

killing for fun and profit - the George Joseph Smith way

https://soundcloud.com/denise_whittle/george-joseph-smith

Subject: RE: BS: Killing things for fun
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Aug 15 - 09:23 PM

A fair number of apologists for this type of trophy hunting have cropped up in the media arguing that the money these serial killers pay to the local authorities gets used for conservation projects, so on balance it's worth it.

I haven't seen the same kind of idea in the case of childsex tourists in places like Thailand, where licensing could help pay for child refuges.

I suspect we'll see the suggestion sooner or later...

Subject: RE: BS: Killing things for fun
From: Deckman
Date: 05 Aug 15 - 01:22 AM

Let's give credit to where credit is due. After all ... it's just the "AMERICAN WAY." As I recall, didn't one of our previous Presidents ... Teddy Roosevelt ... give us the example that he wished us to emulate to become a "real man". bob(deckman)nelson

Subject: RE: BS: Killing things for fun
From: Ebbie
Date: 05 Aug 15 - 03:02 AM

Tonight I channel-surfed past a hunting channel- but I saw the blurb below: Hunters compete for drawing 'first-blood'.

Such fun.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing things for fun
From: GUEST,Musket not smiling
Date: 05 Aug 15 - 03:14 AM

Problem is, BWM.. I think I do understand the mentality to a degree.

You see, I used to be involved in the forensic end of mental health and met many people who hunt and retain trophies.

Most of those I met, mainly down the road in Rampton but elsewhere in my work, have the honesty of a mental block where they just don't understand it to be wrong. Those doing it to animals have the same mindset, it's just that we don't give them accompanied shopping trips in Retford or get galleries to display their art.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing things for fun
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Aug 15 - 04:05 AM

In answer to BWM who charmingly suggests that I am a "TC".

I am totally against "killing for fun", these people disgust me. We see many in Scotland hunting deer.....mostly Dutch and German who pay a lot of cash for hunting trips and of course contributing to the economy.   They have an argument that the deer are being "culled" to improve the strength of the herds and that they mainly take older beasts or those with infirmities.
That being said many animals themselves kill for fun.....have you ever seen the inside of a chicken coop after Mr Fox has visited....they kill everything that moves, its like a slaughter house, heads, legs feathers everywhere.....yet in many cases they eat nothing, or carry away one carcase.

The point I was making Mr BWM.....(look, no TC), is that if you are really worried about animal cruelty start looking at the way our chicken and meat is produced and processed. Our righteous anger over what we see as a privileged minority "enjoying themselves(fox hunting), tends to obscure the real shame in how we treat animals.

Another smokescreen!.....just like "equality" really.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing things for fun
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Aug 15 - 04:37 AM

No Ake, I was questioning why people conflate killing for food with killing for 'fun'. And you've just done it again.

There is shame in much of what goes on in our world, but it's impossible to consider and deal with every issue at the same time. 'Whataboutery' of the kind you and others are indulging in here does nothing to address the issue under discussion on this thread which, as I pointed out earlier, is 'Killing things for fun'.

That's 'Fun', not 'Food'. If you wish to discuss the rights and wrongs of killing for food, please feel free to start a new thread.

I made no 'suggestion' that you're a TC - I asked a general, rhetorical question, and you assumed it referred directly to you. Personally, I don't necessarily believe you're a TC (although your apparent inability to differentiate between 'fun' and 'food' does raise questions in my mind) - I do believe you to be devious and disingenuous, yes - but if the TC cap appeals, who am I to try to prevent you from wearing it? Be my guest.

I have no intention of becoming part of the 'Akenaton, Jim 'n' Keith Revue', so this is my final word.

Carry on.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing things for fun
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Aug 15 - 05:57 AM

I think you are mistaken that people are conflating two things. One thing they have in common is having respect and compassion for animals, or lacking it, or knowingly or unknowingly making compromises over it. Another is that some hunting is for food.

It is not just the hunters' attitudes to animals that are relevant, but our own. To have a debate those things are going to come into it unless we are just going to agree or disagree that people like the man who killed Cecil are bad people.

I think, the main irrelevances that creeps into this discussions like this are other aspects of the hunter. We think the man who killed Cecil is a 'bad person' because we give some thought to Cecil. That he is rich and/or American and/or a gun owner and/or a dentist should be irrelevant.

But the people he has to hide from include people who think it relevant that the deer hunters who disgust them are rich Dutch or German people, the UK foxhunting objectors who are really fighting a class war against the toffs and vegetarians who don't think animals should be killed at all.

If these aspects are to be excluded then it is mainly posts like the one from "Musket not smiling" that are on topic. Though that is needlessly obscure - even to people in the UK mention of Retford won't mean much straight off.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing things for fun
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Aug 15 - 04:23 PM

didn't one of our previous Presidents ... Teddy Roosevelt ... give us the example that he wished us to emulate to become a "real man".

Yeah - a hundred and twenty five years ago. Things have moved on in the interim.....

Subject: RE: BS: Killing things for fun
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Aug 15 - 07:46 PM

Things don't "move on". The way people in general look at the world changes, for good or evil. It's very much swings and roundabout. Or as Bob Dylan put it, "the wheel's still in spin". It's always in spin, always has been, always will be.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing things for fun
From: GUEST,sweet pea
Date: 05 Aug 15 - 11:32 PM

http://www.newsweek.com/us-government-killed-600-monkeys-450-ottearlings-and-lot-other-323528released its animal "kill list."

Over the last fiscal year, the U.S. Department of Agriculture euthanized or otherwise killed 2.7 million animals from 319 species. Some it dispatched intentionally, others were accidentally killed—perhaps caught in traps meant for other species.

Included on the list are 601 monkeys (209 patas monkeys and 392 rhesus, both considered invasive species), 454 river otters (64 were killed intentionally, 390 were killed by accident), 580 black bears, 2,960 foxes from five species and 1.1 million European starlings

Subject: RE: BS: Killing things for fun
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Aug 15 - 11:44 PM

As horrid as those stats are is it's not killing things for 'fun'.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing things for fun
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Aug 15 - 07:54 AM

and 1.1 million European starlings

And a good thing, too!

Subject: RE: BS: Killing things for fun
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Aug 15 - 03:52 PM

At certain times of the year, great humongous clouds of starlings roost on the girders and struts of two high bridges in Seattle, one the Interstate 5 bridge, and the other, the Aurora Avenue (Highway 99) bridge, both going over the Lake Washington Ship Canal.

Starlet droppings (tons thereof!) are very corrosive and, in time, could seriously damage the supporting structures of the bridges. Setting off loud fireworks worked to the extent that the birds would take to the air and scatter, but after a bit, they would come right back.

Finally, without fanfare, knowing the animal rights folks and bird fanciers would howl their heads off, the powers that be began supplying the starlings with poisoned food. That seemed to get rid of the problem.

That wasn't "killing for fun." Drastic, perhaps, but preferable to finding yourself suddenly looking past your hood ornament as you and dozens of other cars find yourselves heading for Lake Union far below….

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Killing things for fun
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 06 Aug 15 - 05:39 PM

There is a train of thought that many dentists are wannabe doctors who never quite made it. If that is the case maybe it made him feel good and important when he killed Cecil. Just a thought.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing things for fun
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 06 Aug 15 - 06:17 PM

According to the Daily Telegraph, a 68-year-old gynaecological oncologist and surgeon from Pennsylvania killed an unidentifed lion in an illegal hunt in April this year, close to where Cecil was killed.

It would seem that both dentists and doctors are capable of being wannabe warriors. I'm sure that this can be said for any trade or profession. All you need is enough money to pay/bribe your way onto the killing grounds.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing things for fun
From: Ebbie
Date: 07 Aug 15 - 03:00 AM

sheesh, Guest/Patsy. A dentist IS a doctor.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing things for fun
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Aug 15 - 04:26 AM

In the UK back in the 19070's dentistry was a common second choice for people who didn't get into medical school, but a first choice for many of course.

In the UK dentists (dental surgeons) and vetinary surgeona are not 'Dr'. In the UK hospital surgeons all have the tile 'Mr'.

It's just a word. It's the letters after the name that carry the information on qualifications, but not much else other than an income well above the median .