BS: How to have a civil debate

Subject: BS: How to have a civil debate
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Aug 15 - 10:09 AM

How to debate politics civilly

In the light of a couple of recent spats I present to you the definitive guide on how to behave in a gentlemanly manner. The site is just for fun of course but some very pertinent points are made.

Sorry ladies. I looked for an equivalent but could not find one :-( Please feel free to post a link if you do and in the meanwhile please believe that by 'man' I mean as in a human of any gender, orientation, race, colour or creed.

I do not wish anyone to engage in any discourse on here without obeying the rules as this will only result in premature ejection...

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: How to have a civil debate
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 19 Aug 15 - 10:36 AM

Gentlepersonly?

Subject: RE: BS: How to have a civil debate
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Aug 15 - 10:56 AM

I think that may discriminate against the not-so-gentle, Fred, but nice try anyway :-)

Subject: RE: BS: How to have a civil debate
From: Jeri
Date: 19 Aug 15 - 11:02 AM

Too meta: when a thread circles around and crawls up its own bum trying to analyze the quality of the shit it is about to dump.

Ban the Meta

Subject: RE: BS: How to have a civil debate
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Aug 15 - 11:09 AM

Sorry, Jeri, beyond me. Can you do it again so that a garden ornament of modest intelligence can understand please?

Ahhh - I'm not the only one it seems :-) Glad about that!

Meta. Bit of an explanation but I am not much wiser after it... :-(

Subject: RE: BS: How to have a civil debate
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 19 Aug 15 - 11:33 AM

DTG. I thought that was the whole idea, excluding the not-so-gentle from the debate.

Subject: RE: BS: How to have a civil debate
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Aug 15 - 12:07 PM

The last deleted thread was a valuable one for the forum, people were beginning to explain their stances without vitriol.
I think we were all actually listening and the forum could have been a better place.

Then someone woke up and decided to undo everything....I think it's a power thing.

To be a moderator a little feeling for movement and direction is required.

"Too meta: when a thread circles around and crawls up its own bum trying to analyze the quality of the shit it is about to dump.



Ban the Meta".....................There you have it, take it or leave it!

Subject: RE: BS: How to have a civil debate
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Aug 15 - 12:20 PM

i dunno - go out ,do a gig, when you get back you've missed all the fun...!

Subject: RE: BS: How to have a civil debate
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Aug 15 - 12:34 PM

The gig would have been much more fun, Al.

Subject: RE: BS: How to have a civil debate
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Aug 15 - 01:34 PM

yeh! twas good! still i cannot imagine how they got themselves into a mess over that one.

i thought Keith's remark that he'd never met an Irish person he didn't like was a classic - right up there with Lenny Bruce's How to Relax Your Coloured Friends at Parties....

Subject: RE: BS: How to have a civil debate
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Aug 15 - 01:39 PM

Good point Fred!

Subject: RE: BS: How to have a civil debate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Aug 15 - 01:47 PM

A classic meta post from a moderator who wants to "ban metas". Talk about going round in circles. Even worse, the irony was completely lost on that person. It's in your gift to ban metas. Just bloody do it.

Subject: RE: BS: How to have a civil debate
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Aug 15 - 01:49 PM

Comments on moderation will only lead to closure so may I suggest that we leave that topic alone please.

I will ask one thing of the mods though if I may. Would you please just remove any obnoxious posts rather than throw the baby away with the bathwater.

Thanks in advance.

Subject: RE: BS: How to have a civil debate
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Aug 15 - 02:05 PM

The thread seemed to disappear after my previous post - if it was offensive, could a kind Mod please explain why (by PM, if preferred).

I can see only a touch of wry humour in it, nothing that could in any way be construed as 'offensive'.

Subject: RE: BS: How to have a civil debate
From: Ed T
Date: 19 Aug 15 - 03:50 PM

An interesting perspevtive on truth and some of the discussion differences on Mudcat BS.


In Mudcat, what is truth? 

Subject: RE: BS: How to have a civil debate
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Aug 15 - 03:57 PM

Has anyone actualy read the link I posted? I would like to at least try to hold a civil debate by adhering to the guidelines therein. Would anyone like to actualy discuss it rather than their own pet peeves? If not, maybe it isn't worth saving :-(

Subject: RE: BS: How to have a civil debate
From: Ed T
Date: 19 Aug 15 - 03:58 PM

The link on what is truth, isvtop of this
Link:

Tom Matriq-what is truth 

Subject: RE: BS: How to have a civil debate
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Aug 15 - 05:07 PM

Would you please just remove any obnoxious posts rather than throw the baby away with the bathwater.

Good luck with that.

The thread seemed to disappear after my previous post - if it was offensive, could a kind Mod please explain why

There is no need for them to explain why - its their party and their rules. Nothing to do with logic. Get over it.

But in the end, Truth is what REALLY is!

Goofus, you wouldn't recognize truth or reality if either of them reared up on their hind legs and bit you on the nose.

Subject: RE: BS: How to have a civil debate
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Aug 15 - 05:15 PM

Greg, if we don't know and understand the current version of The Rules As Determined By The Moderation Team, how are we to ensure that we abide by them?

I posted a comment that, AFAICS, is perfectly acceptable, and the thread went away immediately. I just want to understand how and why I broke The Rules (if indeed I did).

Reasonable, yes?

---

Backwoodsman, if you tried to post in that other thread it didn't stick, it wasn't deleted. No rules were broken by you. --muderator

Subject: RE: BS: How to have a civil debate
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Aug 15 - 05:19 PM

Greg, Greg, Greg! I thought you may follow the spirit of the thread at least :-( Why would anyone come to a party that says 'smart casual only' in fancy dress?

Sigh.

Well, I did try and it is obvious where it started to fall apart at least.

Subject: RE: BS: How to have a civil debate
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Aug 15 - 05:22 PM

BWM - I was hoping that by following the guidelines laid down in the link there may be no need for moderation but I guess I am just fooling myself. I agree it would be nice if we knew all the rules though. Try emailing Joe or Max to see what happened to your post and why. Quite often it is just a glitch in the software.

Subject: RE: BS: How to have a civil debate
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 19 Aug 15 - 05:23 PM

some good suggestions on link, dave. I shall look forward to constructive communication with you in future then.....

Subject: RE: BS: How to have a civil debate
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Aug 15 - 05:29 PM

And yes, Dave - the article you linked to sets good rules for civilised debate. I like it.

Subject: RE: BS: How to have a civil debate
From: Ed T
Date: 19 Aug 15 - 05:55 PM

"But in the end, Truth is what REALLY is!"

Actually, "truth" is what you perceive it to "really be" (lower case) - from your perspective, of course.

Subject: RE: BS: How to have a civil debate
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Aug 15 - 06:07 PM

That's important, Ed. It is terribly easy to assume we 'have the truth' so everyone who disagrees is wrong. To my mind that impoverishes the person who had the truth: people, by and large, are not stupid and so if they have a different view to you they probably have a good reason for thinking what they do. Understanding their view will not necessarily show you to be wrong - though it might - but it will almost certainly allow you to understand your own position better.

Subject: RE: BS: How to have a civil debate
From: Stanron
Date: 19 Aug 15 - 06:19 PM

Because this thread is a meta thread, ie about itself and not about political ideologies, there should be no need to abuse those you normally do abuse as a result of their political beliefs.

Wouldn't it be nice if this were to happen. A kind of mudcat equivalent to a Christmas day football match.

Subject: RE: BS: How to have a civil debate
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Aug 15 - 06:46 PM

Greg, if we don't know and understand the current version of The Rules As Determined By The Moderation Team, how are we to ensure that we abide by them?

And therein lies the problem. The "rules" are a moveable/situational feast. Any attempt to discern what they are at any particular time is an exercise in futility.

I just want to understand how and why I broke The Rules

That way lies madness.

Subject: RE: BS: How to have a civil debate
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Aug 15 - 06:47 PM

I see the recent thread about civility and incivility wasn't just closed down, which can be fair enough when threads go toxic (though that didn't really seem to be happening the last time I looked). It seems to have been conpletely deleted - the posts don't even seem to show in the log of past posts.

That's the first time I've seen that happen in the 16 or so yearsI've been co ing to the Cat. I'd say it's definitely a step too far for any moderator to do that. Individual posts,and even posts responding tp them, there could be a case forthay, but a whole thread... No way, if that's what's happened. Though perhaps it was just some unwanted glitchin the software of the Cat. I very mich hope that was the case.

Subject: RE: BS: How to have a civil debate
From: Ed T
Date: 19 Aug 15 - 06:48 PM

"Don't raise your voice, improve your argument."
Nelson Mandela

Subject: RE: BS: How to have a civil debate
From: Ed T
Date: 19 Aug 15 - 06:57 PM

"At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you." 
― Criss Jami, Killosophy

Subject: RE: BS: How to have a civil debate
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Aug 15 - 07:09 PM

That has happened to several threads lately Mr McGrath. I mentioned it to Joe a couple of days ago and he suggested that it could be to do with "thread overheating" but that certainly was not the case in any of the deleted threads.

What Ed said above seems nearer the mark.

Joe has said that he does not like to see whole threads removed by admin,

Subject: RE: BS: How to have a civil debate
From: Ed T
Date: 19 Aug 15 - 07:13 PM

Look, Aerin, preparation is only half the challenge of winning a debate."
"And the other half?"
He had her now. "You have to choose the right side."
"Your side, you mean." She bristled.
"No, the losing side."
"What?"
"Always choose the weaker side."
"Why would I do that?" Doubt edged her voice, but now she was sitting erect, her feet flat on the floor.
"Because then you have further to go to prove your case." He eased the feet of his chair down. "In a debate, there are two sides. If both make a good argument, then the less popular side wins because that side had further to go to prove its point. Simple logistics."
"If you don't care which side wins." She frowned.
"It's a debate. It doesn't matter which side wins."
"You mean it doesn't matter to you." The tone in her voice unsettled him. Or maybe it was the fact that that her criticism disturbed him at all.
"It's a class," he said. "The point is to flesh out the different sides of an argument."
"And you don't care if the truth gets lost in the shuffle. Don't you believe in anything?!" 
― Anne Osterlund, Academy 7

Subject: RE: BS: How to have a civil debate
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Aug 15 - 07:27 PM

That's the difference between a debate and a discussion. A discussion isn't about winning, it's about discovery. A debate is a kind of argument done as play. In an argument you are trying to win, but you actually care about it. In a debate it's a sort of game, rather than a fight.

Debates can be fun, but by definition they are trivial. Arguments can be fun, but they can be really nasty. I prefer discussions, but they don't stay discussions for all that long here.

I also see meta discussions as an excellent way of diverting an argument from getting too nasty. I'm puzzled why they evidently aren't approved of here.

Subject: RE: BS: How to have a civil debate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Aug 15 - 08:14 PM

Most forums dislike meta discussion. Live with it. You can be as civil as you like here in such debates, but there's a moderator (or two - who knows?) who will use any such debate as an excuse to shit on the Brits here. Worse, they lack the judgement to get rid of bigotry whilst simultaneously deleting the protests against it. I can't deny that I've taken against and despise this particular person for the manner in which they behave (see ultra-childish post at 11.02am). However, this rather shallow person has the power to obliterate what they see as embarrassing/insulting/left-wing/anti-bigotry/Brit/you name it posts/threads at the touch of a key, and there's nowt we can do. It's their gig (never did work out whether it's a he or a she) and they can do what they like, and I doubt that they have any sort of daily wise overseer. As I said, it's the way towards making this forum a graveyard. Without the spark of below-the-line, we're doomed. Also, as I said, just take a look at Chiff and Fipple. A cautionary tale indeed.

Subject: RE: BS: How to have a civil debate
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Aug 15 - 10:12 PM

I can't see any particular distinction between "Brits" and others when it comes to these kinds of issues. There are obsesssive and illmannered people on both sides of the Atlantic, and thoughtful and interesting ones on both sides as well.

The same kind of things happen in threads about UK politics and US politics. Both are just as liable to degenerate into shouting matches and partisan exchanging of insults, and when that happens closing them down can be the best thing to do ( though nevet deleting a whole thread under any circumstances, I would say).

Seeing this in terms of prejudice against "Brits" (a term. I detest, most especially if it is ever misapplied to me) seems mistaken. That would even be true if a close analysis indicated that a higher proportion of posts affected were from people from Britaiin - prejudice is not the only reason for such differences, if indeed they do exist, which I am very far from accepting as being the case.

Subject: RE: BS: How to have a civil debate
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 20 Aug 15 - 02:40 AM

McGrath of Harlow: "That's the difference between a debate and a discussion. A discussion isn't about winning, it's about discovery."

AMEN!!!!

Are you listening, Susan?????

GfS

P.S....but some people just don't like Sanity!

Subject: RE: BS: How to have a civil debate
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Aug 15 - 03:07 AM

There are good reasons for thread deletion which need not and sometimes cannot be divulged. As Steve says, like it or not, it is not your gig. Complain to Max if you have an issue.

On the subject of meta discussions, now I understand the term a bit better, do we not think that a lot of the heated discussions are now becoming meta? They start off as one thing, move to another and we end up arguing over who has scored more points via quotes from 'reliable sources'. The point of the debate seems to become lost in the rush to get one over on someone or prove them wrong. It all seems very 'my Dad is bigger than your Dad' to me. Maybe that is not meta but the worse threads, the ones that get closed, end up in a closed loop arguing about the minutiae of the argument rather than the topic.

Or is it just me?

Subject: RE: BS: How to have a civil debate
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Aug 15 - 03:32 AM

I want to register my support for the moderators, they are volunteers and they do a good job
the fault does not lie with the moderators it lies with people who throw childish insults around.

Subject: RE: BS: How to have a civil debate
From: GUEST,Musket ish
Date: 20 Aug 15 - 03:59 AM

I suppose there is a difference between awful disgraceful comment wrapped in cotton wool and a bit of good old Anglo Saxon with which to challenge it.

It does tend to be those who should take a deep introspective who squawk at reactions to their less savoury comments.

If people want to debate reasonably, perhaps they should bear in mind the rubicon and the crossing points first. I for one will chat merrily with anyone this side of it but happily throw rocks at those on the other bank. I know Musket takes that even further and I support him in it. Musket on the other hand is a bit like me really. Serious thread? Stay serious. Absurd thread? Cover me in axle grease, I'm diving into the pond.

Subject: RE: BS: How to have a civil debate
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 20 Aug 15 - 04:17 AM

Good article DtG (apart from the spelling mistakes!) - sums it up perfectly.

Not in favour if wholesale deletions of threads. Is it not possible to delete an individual comment deemed too offensive to stay, but leave in its place "comment deleted"?
This is what several of our newspapers do in their comments sections.

Subject: RE: BS: How to have a civil debate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Aug 15 - 04:18 AM

end up arguing over who has scored more points via quotes from 'reliable sources'.

If that is directed at me, I refute it.
It is reasonable to support your case with evidence, but obviously it cases resentment by those who have none to present.

When discussing history, the only evidence comes from the historians.

Subject: RE: BS: How to have a civil debate
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 20 Aug 15 - 04:32 AM

I went down to Olympia last week for the Great British Beer Festival. Over 900 beers, ciders and perries!

Subject: RE: BS: How to have a civil debate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Aug 15 - 04:33 AM

"When discussing history, the only evidence comes from the historians."
Now there's a way to conduct a civil debate!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: How to have a civil debate
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Aug 15 - 04:51 AM

Skipton beer festival did not have that many but it did have a stag party dressed as wrestlers having a whale of a time :-)

May I draw peoples attention to the points about sticking to facts, not using inflammatory language and finding common ground.

Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: How to have a civil debate
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Aug 15 - 04:52 AM

I cannot envisage any circumstances in which it can be right to retrospectively delete a thread, as opposed to deleting particular posts which might be libellous or disclose stuff that shouldn't be disclosed, such as private information.

Some forums when deleting posts leave the "name" of the poster but indicate the post has been removed. That seems like good practice to me.

A meta discussion as I understand it is, for example, when we back off from an argument, and try to explore why it is it is getting heated. For example in a domestic setting you realise that the main reason you are rowing might be because your blood sugar is getting low, and you need a bite to eat.. Going meta can be very helpful, though we need to recognise that it can be seen as infuriatingly evasive. In the Mudcat context it can make a lot of sense.

Subject: RE: BS: How to have a civil debate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Aug 15 - 05:19 AM

Kevin, were it just aggressive and ill-mannered stuff that got squished it would be more understandable. But, like lots of others, I've lost perfectly reasonable posts just because they were in threads, commonly started by Brits, that the moderators took against. Deleting threads that contain thoughtful and measured posts is offensive behaviour. And the fact that the mods are volunteers, etc., doesn't absolve them from behaving appropriately. But if this really gets to you, you really do need to get a life. Just remember that hardly anyone out there is actually listening.

Subject: RE: BS: How to have a civil debate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Aug 15 - 05:22 AM

I should have said that if this really gets to one, then one really ought to get a life.

Subject: RE: BS: How to have a civil debate
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Aug 15 - 05:48 AM

On the Guardian website when a post is deleted they leave the name in place, but replace the post with "This comment was removed by a moderator because it didn't abide by our community standards. Replies may also be deleted. For more detail see our FAQs."

I'm very doubtful about the suggestion there's a "Brit-hating" rogue moderator around. Maybe it's truue that posts that don't merit censoring get censored, but I've never had a post deleted so far, to my knowledge, apart from in that deleted thread. Maybe I've just been lucky.

Subject: RE: BS: How to have a civil debate
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Aug 15 - 06:49 AM

If people were to remove the image they have of others and actually listen to what they are saying rather than instantly being against it, it may help considerably. There are those who, no matter how much you listen, still talk rubbish but there are occasional gems amidst the detritus.

Subject: RE: BS: How to have a civil debate
From: GUEST,Musket crossing his fingers
Date: 20 Aug 15 - 06:56 AM

Please please please? I'll pay to fumigate the forum and get the cleaners in when you've gone.



"The only evidence comes from historians"

I thought the word "historian" meant a bit more than just "anybody at all." I do try to dumb down, I really do but the dim intellect of those with reactionary views of any flavour just prevent normal people from taking these debates seriously. I'm no Einstein but lowering your debate to such a level isn't something 90% of us on here should be doing just to accommodate suspect ignorance.