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BS: E Milliband was unelectable
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Subject: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: The Sandman Date: 23 Aug 15 - 02:03 PM So was Neil Kinnock, these unelectable politicians are trying to tell us Corbyn is unelectable, the blind trying to lead those who can see clearly |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: Nigel Parsons Date: 23 Aug 15 - 02:14 PM Both Kinnock & Corbyn have been successfully elected, so are clearly 'electable'. If you mean to imply that, as head of a party, they would not see that party garner a majority, then you should say so. As far as becoming leader of their own party, yes, Kinnock was elected, and Corbyn looks as if he will be. If you mean as Prime Minister, then the UK does not hold elections to that post. (Sometimes individual parties may, if they are already in power, and looking for a change of leadership) |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: akenaton Date: 23 Aug 15 - 02:21 PM GSS ....Ed was humiliated by the media (Wallace and Gromit, Baconrollgate).....it was a professional hit and he didn't have the self belief to dodge it. Joining forces with the Tories against Scottish Independence finished him, although to be fair he didn't have many other places to go. Hope Jeremy makes it for leadership, but the Party will almost certainly split if he does.....the Blairites will start another Social Democracy Party. The SDEP has a nice "liberal" ring to it? |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: michaelr Date: 23 Aug 15 - 02:34 PM As a fan of Wallace and Gromit, I'd like to know how they were involved in a "professional hit" on a British politician. Please explain! |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: The Sandman Date: 23 Aug 15 - 02:48 PM kinnock and milliband were unable to get elected to lead the country, so they should shut up, do you understand, nigel parsons, they are hadly competent to lecture about who is electable. |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: GUEST,Musket Date: 23 Aug 15 - 03:52 PM Corbyn has something to offer politics in that he is opening up from the consensus. That's far different to being seen by the electorate as fit to run a country in the western economic climate. Unless Labour eventually put an electable front to the people, we may have a long time of Tory government. Corbyn has an answer for spending money but nothing of interest to say about raising it. Still, we could all fuck off to Ireland as economic migrants eh Dick? |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: Raedwulf Date: 23 Aug 15 - 04:11 PM In the sense that Schweik means it, yes he was, yes he was, yes he is (no need to split hairs, Nigel!). I don't take too much interest in politics, as I'm too cynical to have any faith in any of them. However, Corbyn does strike me as at least believing in a large part of what he propounds. But the UK press will have a field day with him. You might not like it, but neither Kinnock nor Milliband were elected (and, I must admit, I did laugh when Balls was unelected, but that's another matter). Corbyn won't be either, and if, as seems likely, he becomes Labour leader, I am afraid that Labour make themselves unelectable. I do not express a personal political point of view in saying so; I just think that's the way the UK is. I appear to be not disagreeing with Probably Mr Mather again. The world Probably ends next week! ;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: Steve Shaw Date: 23 Aug 15 - 04:12 PM There appears to be an undignified element of panic in the Labour Party from everyone on the right (which is everyone to the right of Corbyn :-) ) which is making them come out of the woodwork to brief against Jeremy. This appears to be having the effect of making him all the stronger. It's quite amusing to behold, and is almost certainly going to have at least two unintended consequences: to get him elected, and to increase his stature. |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: Musket Date: 23 Aug 15 - 05:17 PM It does tend to amuse me when people say who was elected etc. I suppose if you are a member of a party, you can say you were part of electing them. However, the British people have never ever voted for a Prime Minister. They vote for a party and their local MP as a member of that party. I suppose we are somewhat Presidential in that the personality of the MP leading said party influences your vote, ( I have a lot of time for our local MP, a Tory, but have told him I couldn't vote for his party's manifesto.) But the fools who keep saying nobody voted for Gordon Brown as Prime Minister are correct but not in the ignorant sense of their presumption. Milliband wasn't exactly electable, even if you remove all the media silliness over his personality. He failed to combat the Tory tactic of blaming the last Labour government for the economic world downturn, despite Brown receiving accolades internationally for being the world leader who almost single handedly prevented it from getting worse. Considering the story's voted with the government on each and every economic measure during that time, the only charge that could stick would be selling gold cheap as chancellor and seeing PFI as better than treasury investment in public services. Big cock ups, yes but easily combated. Milliband failed to combat fairy stories, let alone reality. Dr/Mr Mather isn't logged in to my knowledge. I was looking for him at Whitby if you know better.. |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: The Sandman Date: 23 Aug 15 - 05:56 PM "Still, we could all fuck off to Ireland as economic migrants eh Dick" a baffling statement, is it meant to be a joke?, what makes you think i am an economic migrant. |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: Musket Date: 23 Aug 15 - 06:12 PM Because according to the newspaper in my hand, they don't have a sense of humour. Ring any bells duck? I'm an economic migrant myself. On the basis that the counties of The UK north of the border call themselves a separate country and I moved up here for work purposes. Mind you, Musket moved to North Lincolnshire so I should be so lucky. Steve. You are right in that the more people denigrate Corbyn the stronger he gets, like some Medusa figure. However, Corbyn should note the difference between dislike for porridge politics and liking his ideas. His popularity is the breath of fresh air against two parties you couldn't swipe a credit card between their arses. It is mental leap to assume his ideas could ever convince an electorate. Torys, not stories in my previous post. It should be obvious. |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: The Sandman Date: 23 Aug 15 - 06:23 PM Musket,no ,i do not know what you are on about. my point is that we have two leaders of the labour party who failed to win an election and they are trying to point out that someone else is not going to win. its rather like a team that never scores any goals pontificating on how to score goals. |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: Steve Shaw Date: 23 Aug 15 - 06:37 PM That is true, Musket, but let's face it: nothing emanating from the other three candidates is ever exactly going to set the electorate on fire in a month of Sundays either. It's not as though we're being offered a viable alternative. |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: akenaton Date: 23 Aug 15 - 06:48 PM The problem Good Soldier, is that only a small minority of people see socialism as the answer to society's problems.....Most people would rather keep buying the lottery tickets. Financial aspiration is as powerful as it is destructive. As I said on another thread, our best hope is a few small Parties working together using Proportional Representation....long term I'm afraid, don't expect to see it any time soon, but a start is better than carrying on the present charade. |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: Joe Offer Date: 23 Aug 15 - 06:51 PM Please, friends, enlighten us, your American kinfolk. You speak in code, and then deem us ignorant. I guess the subject of the thread is:
So, obviously, both Ed and his brother David were electable, but possibly not as Prime Minister. |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: Raedwulf Date: 23 Aug 15 - 08:17 PM Sorry, Joe, but surely you can understand it's just funny to leave you in ignorance? ;-) If not, imagine US politics as the three-cornered fight that it hasn't been since... when??? Milliband was the third party. In what has always been supposed to be (well, for 80-odd years, anyway) a two party fight. You've got Republocrats & Demicons. Or something. We've got Tories AND Labour AND LibDems. LD's don't usually matter worth a damn, but occasionally hold the balance of power. ESM was (allegedly) Labour. But he managed to make himself unelectable, the third party in a two-cornered fight, hence the comments. If you see what I mean. |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: michaelr Date: 23 Aug 15 - 09:19 PM Fine then, don't tell me. Asshole. |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: Steve Shaw Date: 23 Aug 15 - 09:26 PM Google it, Joe. That's what we Brits do to find out about your politicos. Needless to say, we invariably find the exercise to be exceptionally disappointing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: Raedwulf Date: 23 Aug 15 - 09:28 PM And who do you think you are talking to, mr? |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: Steve Shaw Date: 23 Aug 15 - 09:31 PM You never know who you're talking to around here.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: Joe Offer Date: 23 Aug 15 - 09:50 PM I dunno. I just guess I was brought up to think that a discussion should be initiated with some sort of general explanation so that common ground for discussion is established. You know, it might even be healthy for you Brits to go through the exercise of explaining what you're talking about. Then you might actually know what you're talking about, instead of just arguing mindlessly to keep the air circulating. So, OK, we Americans know about Churchill and Atlee and that nice Tony Brown and horrid Mrs. Thatcher. And we know that there's some guy named Cameron that we can't be sure about. But Miliband, who the heck is Miliband? Heck, even the thread originator can't spell his name.... -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: akenaton Date: 24 Aug 15 - 07:28 AM The thread Joe has really nothing to do with Mr Milliband, It's about "electability" the effect of the media no peoples voting intentions. It was a good subject to discuss, Thanks to Good Soldier. There is an election for leader of the Labour Party at the moment, The Labour Party was founded on socialists principles, but has been adulterated in recent years by free market "liberals" like the "Tony Brown" that you mention. Mr Antony Brown was very popular and kept many MPs in well paid jobs for years.....but he took us to war, privatised everything he could, and finally bankrupted the country. Front runner in this leadership election is(believe it or not), a socialist called Jeremy Corbyn and all the "liberals" in the opposition and in the country are at present trying to convince the Labour Party membership that Mr Corbyn would be unelectable in a general election, chiefly because he is a "socialist", the sort of person who founded the Labour Party in the first place!! Some of us have been saying that it does not matter if Jeremy wins a general election or not, the important thing being that a socialist voice will again be heard in British politics. |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: Steve Shaw Date: 24 Aug 15 - 07:43 AM Who's this Anthony Brown? And what's all this "you Brits" malarkey? |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: Musket Date: 24 Aug 15 - 07:54 AM The thing is Joe, what people are pointing out is that the general public do not elect a Prime Minister, they elect a party and the party decides its leader. To be fair, the influence of American ideas and media campaigns has always tampered with that idea and thee are still people going round saying the previous Prime Minister Gordon Brown was never elected. Such ignorance is mainly due to lazy misunderstanding what it means when they are let loose in a polling booth, and to be fair, because journalists try to see similarities in systems so compare a Prime Minister to a President.. Did you know? Thanks to trashy US soap operas being beamed into homes for years and years, British Telecom had to add 911 to do the same as 999, the national emergency number because younger people assumed 911 meant emergency after being raised on popcorn television. Well, politics can mean the same too. On this debate, I agree Steve, and further, I think him at the despatch box for a couple of years will enliven political debate which is a good thing, but in the same way the people trusted Churchill in war but rejected him come peace, the UK electorate don't need a Tory press to see the flawed logic in quantitive easing in times of growth, nationalisation without compensation and incomes policy. Parts may have merit, but if you want a mix n match to achieve success, those eligible to vote may as well vote Andy Burnham. The only Labour platform that has secured government in the last forty years has been a moderate one. And then some... |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: The Sandman Date: 24 Aug 15 - 11:23 AM Corbyn is moderate ,the rest are Conservatives in disguise, Blair was a left of center conservative a bit like Heath, The only way he differed was his foreign policy as regards Ulster, his wife being Catholic. |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: GUEST Date: 24 Aug 15 - 01:46 PM I think it was Roy Jenkins who said that 'Labour's problem is that the British public is basically Conservative. It's Labour's job to prevent them realising it.' Unfortunately for the likes of Kinnock, Miliband et al, the British public do realise that they're 'basically Conservative' which is why they usually vote for them, only voting Labour after long periods of Tory government. Probably from boredom or because 'it's time for a change.' |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: GUEST Date: 24 Aug 15 - 02:13 PM Labours policies on immigration was their downfall in the May election, that and borrow borrow borrow to get out of debt. Thank God we elected a strong government not afraid to deal with such issues. We will hold power for a decade. |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 24 Aug 15 - 02:22 PM Of course, Margaret Thatcher was widely said to be unelectable, when she was made Tory leader almost by accident. That turned out not to be the case, somewhat unfortunately. |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: michaelr Date: 24 Aug 15 - 03:20 PM I was talking to ake, who bizarrely brought up Wallace and Gromit. |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: The Sandman Date: 24 Aug 15 - 03:59 PM Anthony brown is a variation on gordon blair, one thing they have in common is that they both puppets. |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: akenaton Date: 24 Aug 15 - 05:48 PM I'm Sorry michaelr, didn't mean to be dismissive and I have been on a lot of hospital duty today. When Mr Milliband was elected leader of the Labour Party, the media latched on to the fact that he looked rather like Wallace, a comedy cartoon character which you are obviously familiar with. The joke stuck and was followed by several other personal attacks on his appearance and rather gauche mannerisms. I always try to respond civilly to civil people, of whom you are normally one.....Ake. |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: michaelr Date: 24 Aug 15 - 07:16 PM Thank you, and I apologize for the namecalling. |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 24 Aug 15 - 08:29 PM Interesting that Joe Offer felt it necessary to give that potted summary for bemused Americans. No one would be likely to feel it necessary to do the same about some thread about the American political squabbles round their electiin, for the sake of puzzled foreigners. Of course he's right, our media gives more attention to America than it does to most of the UK. But it does illustrate the truism that in some ways, the bigger the country, the smaller the world it lives in. I believe it applies to China even more than to the USA. |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: Steve Shaw Date: 24 Aug 15 - 08:38 PM Yes, in this world of wiki and google, Joe's lament does seem obsolete. |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: GUEST Date: 25 Aug 15 - 02:36 AM Just think. If gay people were only civil so he could be civil back, Akenaton would be the world's first person to be cured of a personality disorder. Even when he tries to sound contrite, it merely contradicts his outlook, sad bugger. |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: GUEST,HiLo Date: 25 Aug 15 - 03:16 AM Canada is much larger than the US but it does have a much broader view. In this case , size does not matter. |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: akenaton Date: 25 Aug 15 - 03:27 AM No problem M, I do tend to ignore a lot of stuff here but it was purely an oversight...best wishes. |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: Jack Blandiver Date: 25 Aug 15 - 05:00 AM I thought Miliband was very electable actually. Otherwise I wouldn't have voted for him. In fact, as I sat watching Magma at the Royal Northern College of Music on the evening May 7th I was quietly confident of a Labour victory. Earlier that day I'd had a brief but inspiring chat outside the Fleetwood Labour Party hq with a very optimistic Cat Smith. We parted with laughter and it felt like change was in the air as my wife & I drove off to MCR to immerse ourselves in an evening of soothing Zeuhl. Then came the despair of the Exit Polls, but my heart was lifted as I smiled through my tears watching as Sunderland returned an overwhelming Labour majority. Happily, Cat got in too. She supports Jeremy Corbyn. As do I. |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: GUEST,Musket Date: 25 Aug 15 - 06:49 AM Miliband certainly had a focus, but his lack of real world experience showed through more than Cameron's despite their very similar post uni" "Westminster bubble" that does make people seem to think pronouncements make reality. I turned off when, after him meeting with twenty or so healthcare people, myself included, crying that GP retirements are increasing and young doctors not wanting to go into that profession where they have to add practice share to their mortgage and student debt. Two days later, he promised 20,000 GPs from somewhere. You see, professional politicians believe their own bullshit. They genuinely think if they say it will be so, it can be. Mind you, he did force Jeremy Hunt to make a similar promise. Seeing him back pedal now is almost a delight. Or would be if we weren't facing such a problem... |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: GUEST,buddy Date: 25 Aug 15 - 07:19 AM This place is so boring. No wonder it is dying a slow painful death. |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: GUEST,buddy Date: 25 Aug 15 - 07:25 AM What is forty feet long and has 8 teeth? |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: BobL Date: 26 Aug 15 - 04:25 AM Once upon a time it was the queue for a Max Bygraves show... |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: GUEST,buddy Date: 26 Aug 15 - 07:04 AM Good guess but it is the front row at a Willie Nelson concert. |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: Brian May Date: 07 Sep 15 - 06:25 PM So. . . the Labour Party has a week to live . . . Leastways, the Labour Party that was cohesive and in touch with reality anyway. For our American cousins Labour = Democrats (ish). Best thing to happen to the Conservatives (Republicans) will be the election of the (relatively) ultra left wing Jeremy Corbyn. |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 07 Sep 15 - 06:45 PM A shade of overconfidence there. Always hedge your bets. |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: Steve Shaw Date: 07 Sep 15 - 08:53 PM Ultra left wingers do not inhabit the Labour Party. Look elsewhere for the true lefties. Jeremy is a bunny rabbit compared to some of the people you'd find in the SWP, for example. |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: akenaton Date: 08 Sep 15 - 03:08 AM I think we all know that Jeremy won't be Prime Minister. It's not about getting power, its about being able to make our voices heard. At the moment there is no one advocating a socialist answer to all the problems that have been created in the last couple of decades and as Labour leader Jeremy can join with other smaller Parties to put pressure on ......and to perform the difficult job of implementing change in how the electorate view politics and the future. Nothing important is going to happen quickly.....but if this chance is missed we may not see another. PR should be the first objective. |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: akenaton Date: 08 Sep 15 - 03:11 AM Even "Ultra Leftwingers" need to be pragmatic. |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: GUEST,Selby Date: 08 Sep 15 - 03:23 AM Surely no one knows what sort of leader JC would make it is one thing to canvas to win an election and another thing to lead. With leadership comes responsibility and you cannot behave with just disagreeing with what the other person said, JC electability comes when, like it or not he has to show respect to the Queen and the nation. Then it will get interesting. His future and the labour parties future is very much in his hands. There is I believe an sub plot to be explored and that is the SNP has seen to be leading the left in parliament, where will the SNP be when JC arrives Keith |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: GUEST,Shimrod Date: 08 Sep 15 - 03:40 AM "Best thing to happen to the Conservatives (Republicans) will be the election of the (relatively) ultra left wing Jeremy Corbyn." Pretty Polly! Pretty Polly! That's it, keep on parroting the right wing media to ensure that this country never changes. Have you ever been able to think for yourself, Brian? |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: GUEST Date: 08 Sep 15 - 04:04 AM "Ultra left wingers do not inhabit the Labour Party. Look elsewhere for the true lefties. Jeremy is a bunny rabbit compared to some of the people you'd find in the SWP, for example." SWP and similar ultra left groups have previously infiltrated Labour to get closer to power. Such people are said to be infiltrating now to elect Corbyn. |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: Bonzo3legs Date: 08 Sep 15 - 04:39 AM More importantly, we have sunshine after 4 days of 1st rain since April in Alicante!' |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 08 Sep 15 - 05:07 AM Me Guest 04:04 |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: GUEST,Raggytash Date: 08 Sep 15 - 08:11 AM So the SWP are infiltrating the Labour party to vote Corbyn in as leader. It seems like only last week it was conservatives buying a vote to do the same. |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: Steve Shaw Date: 08 Sep 15 - 08:51 AM Funny how the far left are said "infiltrate" a supposedly left-wing party that's meant to be a broad church... Anyway, Keith, less of the dark rumour-mongering. Where's your evidence? |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: Bonzo3legs Date: 08 Sep 15 - 09:46 AM Very pleased that Cameron had the guts to authorise droning of the 2 British jihadist ragheads |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 08 Sep 15 - 10:00 AM Evidence Steve? Are you not following the debacle at all? "Mann (Labour MP) told Harman (acting leader): "[The election] should be halted. It is becoming a farce with longstanding members … in danger of getting trumped by people who have opposed the Labour party and want to break it up – some of it is the Militant Tendency-types coming back in. "It is pretty clear that what is happening amounts to infiltration of the Labour party." http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/jul/26/jeremy-corbyn-genuine-labour-supporters-leadership-election |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 08 Sep 15 - 10:03 AM So the SWP are infiltrating the Labour party to vote Corbyn in as leader. It seems like only last week it was conservatives buying a vote to do the same. Yes Rag, and it still is. The Tories want him to win too, but for different reasons. I am surprised that neither of you is aware of all this. |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: Steve Shaw Date: 08 Sep 15 - 10:44 AM And I'm surprised that the only evidence you've offered is the say-so of a rather neurotic MP. |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: akenaton Date: 08 Sep 15 - 12:49 PM I think Keith is probably right and the SWP and other socialists will be working for Jeremy's election, surely no one can be daft enough to deny that. But these guys are hardened politicos I know some of them and they are not daft either, they want the party to split, as we will never see socialism advanced as an alternative until it does. we may never get power in my lifetime, but if PR is adopted at least people can be given the choice as to what type of future they want for their families and the country. |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 08 Sep 15 - 01:09 PM Are you being disingenuous or naive Steve? What evidence would I personally have? I know it is true because it is common knowledge in the Labour Party, and it has been very widely reported. I just gave the first example that popped up. Want more? Are you seriously claiming to be unaware that infiltration is a major issue in this election? |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 08 Sep 15 - 01:17 PM "A member of the Labour national executive committee told the Sunday Times: "It is pretty clear that what is happening amounts to infiltration of the Labour party." The Communist party has urged its supporters to vote for Jeremy Corbyn in the leadership race. Labour MP John Mann told the Sunday Times the situation was "totally out of control" and called on acting leader Harriet Harman to suspend the process for admitting new members while checks can be carried out. "It is becoming a farce with longstanding members... in danger of getting trumped by people who have opposed the Labour party and want to break it up," he said. John Cryer, who chairs the Parliamentary Labour Party, told the Mail on Sunday members of the TUSC have been joining as registered supporters for £3, which gives them the right to vote in the leader and deputy leader elections. The TUSC was formed in 2010 with the help of the Socialist Party, which was the successor of Militant Tendency. "These people were thrown out of the Labour Party and should not be allowed to vote," Mr Cryer said to the newspaper. Former minister Lord Hutton added that it would be a "travesty" if members of Militant Tendency were able to influence the election." - See more at: https://www.politicshome.com/party-politics/articles/story/labour-concern-over-infiltration-leadership-contest#sthash.KPboNd8K.dpuf |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: GUEST,Raggytash Date: 08 Sep 15 - 01:22 PM I can't find, after albeit a quick look, any membership numbers for the SWP. I cannot imagine it is a large number and as such is highly unlikely to affect the leadership election of the labour party. I doubt if their numbers amount to more than a few thousand in total, certainly not the 160,000 that applied for the right to vote in the final 24 hours of registration. New Members |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: Steve Shaw Date: 08 Sep 15 - 03:48 PM There is not an election that has ever been held on this planet, no matter how "free and fair", that hasn't had someone or other trying to cheat. It is beholden on you, Keith, to demonstrate that the current Labour election has involved jiggerypokery that is particularly out of proportion. So far, you have provided quotes from a neurotic Labour MP, a right-winger who supports Yvette fer chrissake, but no hard evidence. It is well known that Jeremy's opponents will try anything to diss him, especially her. Actually, knowing your right-wing political stance, Keith, I'd have thought you'd approve of any infiltration that might help Jeremy. . |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 08 Sep 15 - 05:19 PM "Like it or not, he has to show respect for the Queen and the nation" Has any ever seen Jeremy Corbyn being rude or discourteous, even to those who are hostile to him? Obviously Jeremy Corbyn will treat the Queen with respect, as he would treat any other person with respect, including of course any 89 year old lady. And why should anybody think that he does not respect this nation which he has served as an MP for more than 30 years? |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: DMcG Date: 08 Sep 15 - 05:31 PM Just watched a recording of the Panarama problem about Corbyn. it would have been better named Paranoia. |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 09 Sep 15 - 04:45 AM Steve, knowing your right-wing political stance, Keith, I'd have thought you'd approve of any infiltration that might help Jeremy. I do not have one. Middle of the road. Centre right. The English default. It is beholden on you, Keith, to demonstrate that the current Labour election has involved jiggerypokery that is particularly out of proportion. And I have. I have quoted leading Labour figures. I have seen and heard it on the BBC, the other broadcasters and the published media, and will provide more examples if you want. Can you quote any Labour insider refuting that infiltration is an issue. No. You can't because it is just another assertion, unsupported and unsupportable because it is, as ever, wrong. I can support mine because it is, as ever, correct. |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 09 Sep 15 - 04:56 AM Guardian. (Which you say you read Steve) "Labour leadership: infiltration shambles puts vote at risk, says Lord McConnell, Former Scottish first minister " "With the contenders set for an emergency meeting to discuss efforts to weed out infiltrators," "More than 120,000 people have paid £3 to take part in the vote, along with more than 189,000 members of unions and other affiliates, swelling the electorate to more than 600,000. According to Newsnight reports, more than 3,000 voters have been rejected, though Labour said on Friday the figure was half that number. The first wave of rejections, known as #Labourpurge on social media, included removing members who had been Conservative, Green and Socialist Worker party candidates, and those expressing support or raising money for rival parties." "Leaked meeting notes from the party's procedure committee show it has been inundated and the system is overstretched, with the New Statesman reporting that almost every member of Labour HQ's slimmed-down post-election staff has been drafted in to help wade through the roll of new supporters. Murad Gassanly, a councillor in Pimlico, south London, told Newsnight he estimated 20% of supporters who had joined the local branch were "dubious", with evidence of them supporting other parties found on Google and social media." "We are also concerned that, given the party's limited resources and the effort required to investigate applicants, this could result in the integrity of the contest being called into question, and the outcome subject to legal challenge." http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/aug/22/labour-leadership-infiltration-shambles-lord-mcconnell |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: Steve Shaw Date: 09 Sep 15 - 06:59 AM That was nearly three weeks ago, Keith. Got any updates? :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: GUEST,Raggytash Date: 09 Sep 15 - 07:02 AM And it was from a rabid left wing rag!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 09 Sep 15 - 08:03 AM Nothing new to say about it. You think the infiltration stopped since then? Why would it? It ends tomorrow. |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 09 Sep 15 - 08:05 AM Panorama was just the day before yesterday. |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: GUEST Date: 09 Sep 15 - 08:20 AM "Burnham said Mann's allegations about so-called entryism were not helpful and he had no evidence of entryism on any scale. If Mann had any evidence, he should produce it, Burnham added" From your Guardian article Professor, you chose to be very selective. Some of us read the whole article and judge accordingly. |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: Steve Shaw Date: 09 Sep 15 - 09:12 AM Heheh. Sussed, Keith. |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 09 Sep 15 - 10:30 AM That quote was from the 26th July piece! Obviously, from the more recent articles and broadcasts, plenty of evidence has emerged. |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 09 Sep 15 - 10:35 AM Spectator, 21st August, "For Andy Burnham and Yvette Cooper, entryism is their chief concern and Team Burnham have decided to publicly raise the issue. Michael Dugher, Burnham's campaign chair, has written to Labour general secretary Iain McNico calling for an urgent meeting to discuss what can be done." |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: Raggytash Date: 09 Sep 15 - 10:44 AM Of course if the Spectator writes it, it MUST be true. |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: Steve Shaw Date: 09 Sep 15 - 10:58 AM :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 09 Sep 15 - 03:05 PM The Spectator confirms everything else. I think that I believe BBC, Guardian, Spectator and actual leading Labour figures themselves over unsupported assertions from you! You lose. |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: GUEST,Raggytash Date: 09 Sep 15 - 03:16 PM Professor, you really are childish ........... your expression "you lose" indicates just how very, very juvenile your thinking is. Most people here would like to like to enhance their knowledge by communicating with other folk. You, on the other hand, have to WIN. It is quite sad. |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: GUEST,Ragyytash Date: 09 Sep 15 - 03:32 PM Just as an aside, what assertions have I made. I cannot recall asserting anything. But I am prepared to be corrected on that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 09 Sep 15 - 09:22 PM Nobody ever won a General Election without people who hadn't voted for them before changing to vote for them, including many people who had voted for other parties, obviously. Former Tory MPs have crossed the floor and even become Labour Ministers. And of course Winston Churchill was a Liberal MP before he crossed over and became a Conservative. Calling people who have backed the Greens or left parties "entryists" is a bit absurd. Primary elections in the States are often conpletely open affairs - and when Harriet Harman announce this electoral system earlier this year she specifically said that anyone on the electoral roll would be entitled to sign up and vote for the party leader. Of course they moved the goalposts after that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 10 Sep 15 - 04:37 AM Rag, that "entryism" and infiltration have been issues in this debacle is common knowledge, widely discussed and reported. I mentioned it and Steve challenged me on it with your help, but you failed to make a case because you were wrong. |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: GUEST,Raggytash Date: 10 Sep 15 - 04:56 AM I quoted from the same bloody article as you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 10 Sep 15 - 05:08 AM Yes, and I showed that the quote was many weeks out of date. Burnham was then asking for evidence. Later he acknowledged the issue. He had his evidence. You were wrong. |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: Steve Shaw Date: 10 Sep 15 - 06:17 AM I asked you to demonstrate that Labour's "infiltration" issue is somehow out of proportion. We know that these things go on, but you are choosing to make a big issue of of this particular case, for motives known only to yourself (though guessed at by some of us). So is it worse than other cases you've come across (you could check with your historians...)? Is it going to make any difference to the outcome? Or can you find only desperate sources who live in fear of a Corbyn victory? |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: GUEST,Raggytash Date: 10 Sep 15 - 07:54 AM So give us a link to the article about Burnham having evidence. |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 10 Sep 15 - 08:30 AM We know that these things go on, but you are choosing to make a big issue of of t Not at all. You asked for evidence so I produced it. When you said it was insufficient, I produced more. When you said an old piece was inconclusive, I showed that more recent stuff was. It was you who made an issue of it by expressing doubts and demanding evidence. Each time I posted I thought it was finished, but you and Rag kept coming back. Let's drop it. So give us a link to the article about Burnham having evidence. In the July article he wanted evidence for entryism. In the more recent ones, he no longer does. He accepts that entryism is an issue. |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: Steve Shaw Date: 10 Sep 15 - 08:43 AM So show me an election in which a degree of skulduggery isn't an "issue". The question which you seem unable to address is how big an issue and whether it is capable of affecting the result. You appear to be scaremongering in order to vilify the left. |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: GUEST,Raggytash Date: 10 Sep 15 - 08:48 AM You told us that the 26th July article was outdated and now you are using it again. Where is the evidence, where has Burham accepted that entryism is an issue, give us facts. |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 10 Sep 15 - 09:33 AM The fact that something is "commonly known, widely known and reported" does not actually mean it is true. Clearly there has been entryism from Conservatives, though whether that was to vote for Corbyn or against is unclear. There have also been cases on people who have recently been candidates of othe parties who signed, which an readonably be termed entryism, though of course such people could still quite truthfully have claimed tyat they support the aims and principles of the Labour Party.. But to bar people as being entryists because they have voted for other parties, tactically or because they may have have seen them as better vehicles for the principles of the Labour Party than New Labour, or have expressed such views in public would be going too far. Anyway, we'll see. Let's hope whatever result there is the margin of votes will be big enough to make all this stuff insignificant, rather than some Bush-Gore voting shambles. |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 10 Sep 15 - 10:55 AM Rag, You told us that the 26th July article was outdated and now you are using it again. I did not. Where is the evidence, where has Burham accepted that entryism is an issue, give us facts. If he first needed evidence, and then he did not, it is a reasonable assumption that he found some. Now a question for you. Why is "You lose" childish, if "Heh Heh. You're sussed" is not? And, I was not "sussed." The quote was out of date and irrelevant weeks before this thread even started. |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 10 Sep 15 - 10:58 AM Steve, . You appear to be scaremongering in order to vilify the left. Hardly Steve. My statement was just, "SWP and similar ultra left groups have previously infiltrated Labour to get closer to power. Such people are said to be infiltrating now to elect Corbyn." They were said to be. No scaremongering from me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: Jim Carroll Date: 10 Sep 15 - 11:23 AM This has been the most interfered-with election by non members I can ever remember The right-wing press have launched a scurrilous campaign to demonise Corbyn - the Mail and the Times being the two worst - each day, the Times has run an-anti Corbyn article - last week he was depicted as 'Freddie' from Nightmare on Elm Street warning what would happen "if you didn't wake up". Within the Labour Party, the right have barred members from standing for election because they "don't share our values" Politics in Britain is now firmly in the hands of the right, thanks to Labour selling out its principles in order to hold office - sod the electorate - sod principles - keep the tories in power with undemocratic deals and coalitions. There is no evidence to suggest an infiltration by the left - I wish to Christ there were, then perhaps the disillusioned electorate would be given a proper democratic choice. If people genuinely object to interference in the democratic process, why not complain about press interference and right-wing political bias - that might bring the people who have walked away from parliamentary politics in disgust back Infiltration of the Labour Party Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: akenaton Date: 10 Sep 15 - 11:25 AM On this issue Keith is correct, bow out gracefully and stop obfuscating. The only thing that matters in the meantime is that JC is elected leader and the old Blairite wing splits off and joins the Liberals, where they belong. Jeremy will lead a socialist Labour Party which will include all sectors of socialist opinion. In saying that, it will take PR and several elections if a socialist system is ever to be introduced. Whereever we are coming from on the political spectrum, there is simply no way that this wasteful and ecologically unsustainable system can carry on into another century.....all shades of political opinion must be made to realise that.....the days of the great economic powers must surely be coming to an end. |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: Jim Carroll Date: 10 Sep 15 - 12:07 PM "On this issue Keith is correct, bow out gracefully and stop obfuscating." Once again you support the extreme right point of view and ignore the fact that the right have been interfering in this election sincs day one - Socialism needs such socialists like Troy needed a Wooden Horse Keith is always right -- as right as it gets Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: akenaton Date: 10 Sep 15 - 12:25 PM The last thing we need is narrow minded fools who do not realise the whole of society will be involved in the change, not just a few woolly minded soft lefties. Try to convince people not browbeat them, do you not think it would be a good thing for Labour to ditch the Blairanistas, or are you a trickle down socialist? Although Keith and I are at opposite ends of the political spectrum, he is almost always right when debating you people, because your ideology is based on myth. |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 10 Sep 15 - 02:30 PM Once again you support the extreme right point of view Not mine Jim. I do not put extreme right views because I have none. I am centre/centre right, like most people in England. I voted Labour in the Blair years. I would never link to a BNP site as Jim just did. I linked to Guardian. Shame on you Jim. |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 10 Sep 15 - 02:53 PM GSS, it's maybe no big deal that you don't know how to spell Miliband, but please say where you think Ed has suggested how people should vote in the leadership election. One thing's certain: the Labour Party will be praying for a decisive result. If it's close, legal challenges will be almost inevitable (though not instigated by any of the candidates). The election process has been a total clusterfuck. |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: Jim Carroll Date: 10 Sep 15 - 03:32 PM "Not mine Jim." Yup - sure is - don't come much righter "I voted Labour in the Blair years." Don't care - the ideas you put up here are extreme right. "I would never link to a BNP site as Jim just did." Just pointing out the illogicality of your argument in complaining that the left is infiltrating labour - and your ignoring the real shape of the opposition to Corbyn - The Daily Mail, The Sun and the BNP - theee bedfellows.. Please dont be crude in your attemps to extract yourself - or to avoid the point The right is infiltrating Labour- The Labour party is the natural home of the left until the feller you voted for in the Blair years. Respond to the facts and stop waffling. THE RIGHT HAS ATTEMPTED TO INTERFERE WITH THE DEMOCRATIC PROCESS OF ELECTING A LABOUR LEADER and you are ignoring that fact and attempting to blame the left Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 10 Sep 15 - 03:38 PM More like a pillowfight really. Good knockabout stuff, most of the time. The press coverage has been rather nastier at times, I suspect. Which has probably actually helped firm up the Corbyn vote. I can't see the Blair lot joining the LidDems, or being welcomed if they tried. If they migrate to another party it would have to be the Tories. More likely would be to set up a seperate group of their own. But I think they are more likely to sit on their hands and try to freeze out Jeremy Corbyn. |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: akenaton Date: 10 Sep 15 - 04:04 PM "Just pointing out the illogicality of your argument in complaining that the left is infiltrating labour - and your ignoring the real shape of the opposition to Corbyn - The Daily Mail, The Sun and the BNP - theee bedfellows" Absolute rubbish Jim, I would have expected better from you. Of course the "left" is infiltrating Labour....They're not daft, the first chance they have had to get their ideas across for fifty years. Of course a few Tory voters are joining the Labour Party to help Jeremy be elected it's called tactics and all Parties do it....The Tories quite rightly think that in the short term they shall have the field to themselves. How the hell do you work out that the SNP don't want Jeremy elected? A split Party and Labour in disarray would ensure a huge SNP victory in the Scottish Elections. The SNP Don't want Cooper or Burnham elected. (trust me) |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: Raggytash Date: 10 Sep 15 - 04:31 PM I'm still waiting for the "facts" professor. You know the one's about entryism that you were adamant about. Come on tell me all about it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: akenaton Date: 10 Sep 15 - 04:55 PM BNP/ SNP :0)... "Should have gone to specsavers"...sorry. |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: GUEST,achmelvich Date: 10 Sep 15 - 07:18 PM just to say i am a left infiltrator who has voted for jeremy corbyn and will join the party on monday. i have been waiting for 40 years to work for a labour party that is socialist. of course, it may well go horribly wrong - but you have to try eh? |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 10 Sep 15 - 07:49 PM The old slogan "no enemy on the left" has not always been true. But there are occasions when it helps clear the mind, and it gives the lie to talk about entryism from the Greens and the rest, and shows up the hypocrisy of the pre-election expressions of antagonism to the prospect of recognising the SNP as allies. |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 11 Sep 15 - 03:57 AM Jim, the ideas you put up here are extreme right. Completely untrue Jim. Will you give an example? No. It is a lie the illogicality of your argument in complaining that the left is infiltrating labour - and your ignoring the real shape of the opposition to Corbyn Untrue AGAIN Jim! I did not complain about left infiltration, I just referred to it. And I had referred to infiltration from the right long before! The difference was it went unchallenged and uncommented on. No-one demanded evidence and made an issue of it. Rag, What are you on about now? |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: GUEST Date: 11 Sep 15 - 04:10 AM "SWP and similar ultra left groups have previously infiltrated Labour to get closer to power. Such people are said to be infiltrating now to elect Corbyn." Facts to back up a statement like this for a start Professor. |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: akenaton Date: 11 Sep 15 - 04:32 AM If you are going to be insulting, wouldn't you be better to let us know who you are/ |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 11 Sep 15 - 04:59 AM Rag. SWP and similar ultra left groups have previously infiltrated Labour to get closer to power. Remember Militant Tendency in the eighties? Such people are said to be infiltrating now to elect Corbyn. I linked to Guardian and other sources who did say that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 11 Sep 15 - 05:08 AM Guardian, "The process began in 1983 when the five members of Militant's editorial board were expelled (from Labour Party). In 1986 a further nine went, including Derek Hatton, the Liverpool council deputy leader, Tony Mulhearn, the chairman of the Liverpool district Labour party, Ian Lowes, the leader of the powerful GMB No. 5 branch in Liverpool city council, and Richard Venton, the Militant Merseyside spokesman. In 1987 three Militants were expelled, in 1988 the pace picked up with 29 thrown out, in 1990 a total of 34 were expelled and, in the six months to June this year, a further 26 had lost their party cards. Since then a further six from Tower Hamlets, East London, have been thrown out, making a grand total to date of 125. The expulsions affected areas as far apart as Stevenage, St Helens, Cardiff Central, Islywn, East Berkshire, Cumbernauld and Kilsyth, Southwark, Eddisbury and Newcastle East. The single biggest expulsion from one constituency came last year when eight Militant supporters were ousted in Glasgow Cathcart. Yesterday's agreed plans to start the process of disciplining a further 62, and possibly as many as 140 more, represents a shift of gear. However, this must be set against Militant claims - albeit unprovable - of between 2,000 to 3,000 supporters inside the party." http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/jul/16/militant-derek-hatton-labour-party-1991 |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: GUEST,Raggytash Date: 11 Sep 15 - 05:18 AM The same Guardian articles that said there was no evidence remember. "Burnham said Mann's allegations about so-called entryism were not helpful and he had no evidence of entryism on any scale. If Mann had any evidence, he should produce it, Burnham added" You now start referring to something that happened in the 80's & early 90's That's more than your 20 year cut off point in other threads and has sweet FA to do with the current election. |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: Jim Carroll Date: 11 Sep 15 - 05:36 AM "Will you give an example?" You don't really want me to reopen all those extreme Islamophobic sites which you useed to prove your cultural theory and get this thread closed, do you? No - thought not. "I did not complain about left infiltration, I just referred to it." You used it and continue to do so Now you are suggesting that it is wrong to quote the BNP's claim to have infiltrated the Labour Party - ie implicate them with the left ignore the extreme right - par for the course I say. The left were harried out of the labour party or left of their own accord when it went "New Labour" under Blair - in alliance with the Tories, it has failed Britain abysmally - Oil Wars, recessions, bankers sprees, political corruption, hardship homelessness, whittling away of the rights of working people while massively increasing teh gap between the haves and have-nots - all products of Labour, Liberal, Tory co-operation. They have shown themselves totally unfit to govern. It's about time the Labour party was put back into the hands of the people who created it to see if they can make a better job of it. No more you and me here Keith - you are up to your own "I win" tricks Respond to the state of things rather than trawling for quotes Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: Steve Shaw Date: 11 Sep 15 - 06:01 AM I'm somewhat mystified by references to Militant "infiltrating" Labour, or their being accused of entryism. To infiltrate or enter, first of all you need to be outside looking in. That was not true of Militant, which consisted of Labour Party members. The accusation may, however, be levelled fairly at Tories who join Labour in order to vote for Corbyn. Lefties now joining the party - well there's a conundrum. The Labour Party has been the natural home of non-revolutionary left-wingers in the UK and it seems odd to be accusing such people of entryism. Rallying round would be more like it, I reckon. I've never been a member, but I am generally of that persuasion, so suppose I'd joined last month in order to play a part in the election. Would that make me an infiltrator or entryist? I'd like to suggest that these terms have been usurped by the right-wing media and used pejoratively to highlight (yet again, tediously) a mythical sinister left-wing side of Labour. If the history of Labour in recent decades has taught us anything, it's that the only truly sinister aspect of the party is right-wing Blairism. |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 11 Sep 15 - 06:39 AM extreme Islamophobic sites which you useed Filthy lie Jim. I never have, while you just linked to BNP! I quoted Straw, Labour Minister; Cryer, Labour MP; Ahmed, Labour politician and peer, and Alibhai Brown, left wing writer and journalist. Rag, you queried two of my statements, one historic and one current. I provided an archive Guardian piece about the historic one, and up to date Guardian and other pieces on the current one. Steve, Militant Tendency did infiltrate Labour, and were expelled. They were not Labour. They had extreme views and values that were not those of Labour. |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: GUEST,Raggytash Date: 11 Sep 15 - 06:46 AM Professor you have been asked repeatedly for evidence of "entryism" you have failed to produce any. You have attempted, as is your want, to change the subject by introducing an irrelevant piece from decades ago. I was going to use one of your pet sayings but I won't. |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: Jim Carroll Date: 11 Sep 15 - 06:54 AM "Filthy lie Jim." Yeah - sure it is !!! You have even told us that it was wrong to expose the BNP claims of entryism into the Labour Party - now there's a Freudian slip, if ever there was one - god alone knows what excuse you are going to come up for with that one. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: Steve Shaw Date: 11 Sep 15 - 07:09 AM "Steve, Militant Tendency did infiltrate Labour, and were expelled. They were not Labour. They had extreme views and values that were not those of Labour." Their views and values are immaterial in the current context of this discussion. And they were Labour. The fact is that Militant consisted of Labour Party members and were not infiltrators. They didn't just spring up when Derek Hatton was around, you know. You can't infiltrate something that you're already in. They may have been a group within a group, but that's no different from the Fabian Society or Labour Friends Of Israel or the 1922 Committee or the Monday Club. The use of "infiltrate" or "entryism" is a well-known right-wing ploy for smearing those on the left of the party. It's no surprise that they enjoy pride of place in your personal lexicon, Keith. |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 11 Sep 15 - 11:19 AM Steve, the Labour party expelled them. The Labour party obviously did not see them (you Steve) as Labour. The Labour Party now objects to people like you infiltrating to elect a leader that the existing party does not want. The election was intended for supporters of the Labour Party. The far left were not invited Rag, Professor you have been asked repeatedly for evidence of "entryism" you have failed to produce any I have produced reports, from Guardian and other reputable sources, that it is regarded as a serious issue by the Labour Party. Jim, "Filthy lie Jim." Yeah - sure it is !!! It is. Vindictive and malicious. I have never, ever used, "extreme Islamophobic sites which you useed" You have no answer to what I say, so you make up shit against me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: Raggytash Date: 11 Sep 15 - 11:31 AM You have copied articles but they and you have not provided any EVIDENCE nor have they or you provided FACTS. Inuendo, gossip, suppositions by the bucketload but nothing concrete. Until you or them can provide anything else I will treat the with extreme caution. |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 11 Sep 15 - 11:37 AM Senior Labour officials saying there is an issue is hard evidence that there is an issue Rag. E.g. one of my recent Guardian quotes "Labour leadership: infiltration shambles puts vote at risk, says Lord McConnell, Former Scottish first minister " "With the contenders set for an emergency meeting to discuss efforts to weed out infiltrators," "More than 120,000 people have paid £3 to take part in the vote, along with more than 189,000 members of unions and other affiliates, swelling the electorate to more than 600,000. According to Newsnight reports, more than 3,000 voters have been rejected, though Labour said on Friday the figure was half that number. The first wave of rejections, known as #Labourpurge on social media, included removing members who had been Conservative, Green and Socialist Worker party candidates, and those expressing support or raising money for rival parties." "Leaked meeting notes from the party's procedure committee show it has been inundated and the system is overstretched, with the New Statesman reporting that almost every member of Labour HQ's slimmed-down post-election staff has been drafted in to help wade through the roll of new supporters. Murad Gassanly, a councillor in Pimlico, south London, told Newsnight he estimated 20% of supporters who had joined the local branch were "dubious", with evidence of them supporting other parties found on Google and social media." "We are also concerned that, given the party's limited resources and the effort required to investigate applicants, this could result in the integrity of the contest being called into question, and the outcome subject to legal challenge." http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/aug/22/labour-leadership-infiltration-shambles-lord-mcconnell |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: Raggytash Date: 11 Sep 15 - 11:59 AM I'm off on holiday |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: Jim Carroll Date: 11 Sep 15 - 12:22 PM "It is. Vindictive and malicious." No it isn't Keith I will not trawl over your track record - it is to well-known to be necessary. You have shown us that you believe it more important to to keep the left out of the Labour Party than to expose the fact that the B.N.P. is claiming to have infiltrated it - you in fact, suggested it was wrong to do so =- vindicate that! "I would never link to a BNP site as Jim just did......shame on you Jim." If that isn't an indication of your politics - what is it? And you continue to claim thatr they have been infiltrated by the left - on the word of a press that has admitted there is no evidence for such a claim and on the word of the right-wing labour leadership, hopefully about to be replaced by somebody who stands for what the Labour Party was created for in the first place. Why should the left have to infiltrate the Party - it is people like them who created it? Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: Steve Shaw Date: 11 Sep 15 - 01:20 PM Steve, the Labour party expelled them. Therefore they were members of the party, as I have repeatedly told you. You can't infiltrate the Labour Party if you're a member of the Labour Party. The Labour party obviously did not see them (you Steve) as Labour. But they were the Labour Party. What you mean is that certain right-wing elements in the then Labour Party wanted them out. Other elements defended them. Important Labour figures on the left such as Eric Heffer, Ken Livingstone and Tony Benn defended them. I doubt that any of those were your cup of tea, but, like Militant, they were members of the Labour Party. The Labour Party now objects to people like you infiltrating to elect a leader that the existing party does not want. What a ridiculous thing to say. The party wants what the party elects tomorrow via a democratic process. The "existing party" is not a single mind. That's been one of Labours historical strengths. I note that you make no comment about your right-wing Tory bedfellows infiltrating. The election was intended for supporters of the Labour Party. See above. The far left were not invited Who was "invited", then, Keith? God, you're struggling tonight. |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: Steve Shaw Date: 11 Sep 15 - 01:24 PM Sorry, apostrophe police. |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 11 Sep 15 - 01:43 PM Steve yes. They infiltrated and then had to be expelled. Jim, You have shown us that you believe it more important to to keep the left out of the Labour Party than to expose the fact that the B.N.P. is claiming to have infiltrated it No. I have said neither is important or unimportant, but I raised the issue of infiltration from the right first. - you in fact, suggested it was wrong to do so =- vindicate that! No. I said it was wrong to link to a BNP site, and you did so without warning people where your link would take them. I will not trawl over your track record - it is to well-known to be necessary. It is a nasty, vindictive and malicious lie to claim that I have ever expressed a right wing view, or used an Islamophobic site. If you are not a vile, malicious liar, produce ONE SINGLE EXAMPLE. Good luck with that, liar. |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 11 Sep 15 - 01:45 PM lie to claim that I have ever expressed a far right wing view |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: Steve Shaw Date: 11 Sep 15 - 01:57 PM They did not "infiltrate" any more than anyone else joining the party "infiltrated". People with the same politics as Militant have always found a home in the Labour Party and you know it. Left wing factions at the time of Militant were absolutely nothing new. They were never outsiders looking in. It seems to me that nice, right-wingers who fit your agenda join parties, whereas those nasty lefties infiltrate parties. If you don't wish to be accused of making right-wing statements, you need to stop making comments that make you sound like a mainstream Daily Mail scaremonger. In any case, no doubt your usual desperate tactic of getting all nasty will have the effect you desire, that is, getting the thread closed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: GUEST,achmelvich Date: 11 Sep 15 - 02:24 PM i have left the labour party a few times - usually because of the warmongering- but will join again on monday if jeremy corbyn is elected. having a left labour leader is what i have been waiting for for 40 years so it would be foolish to ignore the election now. i am the person you read about in the press - i have, twice, been in the swp and got stuck into the factional fighting in the early '80s. in the last election i was a green party candidate after being involved in the scottish 'yes' campaign. in short i am a socialist, an active trade unionist and have always been motivated by peace and human rights. that and a loathing of the tories and all their works. at heart, i am a bennite. anyway, i paid my £3 and have made no secret of my views and history to the local labour party. nobody has questioned my right to vote for jeremy corbyn. in fact i have been invited to stand as a delegate for the constituency party (though this may be an error) so good for the labour party and my local MP. what is a leftie - or anyone who cares for decency in our country- to do? we join the party and fight the tories, together. |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: GUEST,achmelvich Date: 11 Sep 15 - 02:52 PM apologies if i have posted similar before. a bit of hope has made me all repetitive! |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: Jim Carroll Date: 11 Sep 15 - 03:19 PM "I have said neither is important or unimportant, but I raised the issue of infiltration from the right first." Yet you ignore one and pursue the other - without a shred of evidence and you objected to my raising BNP infiltration "shame on you" - why did you do that? "It is a nasty, vindictive and malicious lie to claim that I have ever expressed a right wing view" Hah!! There are dozens of examples and you know it - but to raise them again here (as I have over the years) would be to close this thread - which is what you appear to want. "what is a leftie - or anyone who cares for decency in our country- to do? we join the party and fight the Tories, together." Drink to that anytime Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 11 Sep 15 - 03:53 PM Jim, Yet you ignore one and pursue the other No. Everyone ignored it when I raised the issue of right infiltration. For left wing, I was asked for evidence and then told it was inadequate so I produced more. All I did was respond to what others asked of me. There are dozens of examples and you know it - I know no such thing liar. You never have and never could find a single example because there are none. It is all shitty lies from a shitty liar. Steve, They did not "infiltrate" any more than anyone else joining the party "infiltrated". I suppose the difference was that they belonged to another party. The SWP. Their intention was to subvert the Labour Party, which was why Labour had to expel them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 11 Sep 15 - 04:50 PM "The far left was not invited" It was actually, along with everyone else. Harriet Harman on May 18 announcing voting arrangements for party leader: "Anyone – providing they are on the electoral register – can become a registered supporter, pay £3 and have a vote to decide our next leader. This is the first time a political party in this country has opened up its leadership contest in this way and I think there will be a real appetite for it out there". She was right in that last bit! |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: Steve Shaw Date: 11 Sep 15 - 06:21 PM Well said indeed both Kevin and achmelvich (don't want to leave you out either, Jim!). Makes Keith's desperate right-wing wranglings look like the last-gasp protests of the owld curmudgeon that he really is. By the way, Keith, if you really want to tell us that everyone in Militant was in the SWP, let's have your evidence, names and pack drill please, Keith. You accuse others of making stuff up, don't you. So let's have it, chapter and verse please. Who in Militant was in the SWP? Name names! Come along now, Keith! We're all waiting! |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: Jim Carroll Date: 11 Sep 15 - 07:38 PM "Their intention was to subvert the Labour Party, " Labour Party has been subverted by the right and made indistinguishable from those who have cause all the things that is wrong with Britain today Far from being concerned with the fact that the fascist British National Party has boasted that it has infiltrated the Labour Party. you have attempted to suppress that information - an indication of your political credentials. You have no evidence whatever of left infiltration of the Labour Party yet you persist in your claims "I suppose the difference was that they belonged to another party." From today's Daily Telegraph: "Andy Burnham demands 'urgent' meeting over Tory infiltrators in Labour leadership contest" Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: Steve Shaw Date: 11 Sep 15 - 08:07 PM Keith is utterly typical of the Murdoch/Mail tendency. Find whatever negatives you can about the left, true or not, and dress it up with murmurings about entryism and infiltration. Don't bother with the facts by the way. They just get in the way of a good yarn, they do. |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: DMcG Date: 12 Sep 15 - 03:37 AM Will there be a legal challenge? Difficult to predict, and I don't know English law well enough, but if it is legal I would expect the challenge to come from someone associated with the media and the right, not one of the candidates. It is very much in those people's interests to keep doubts about the validity going, whereas the party can see the sense of insisting the election was valid. Even the 'Common Good' group seem to be aiming to contain Corbyn, not overthrow him. |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 12 Sep 15 - 03:59 AM I have not even expressed an opinion about any of this, and I do not have one. It is an interesting situation, but not relevant to me at all. I raised the issue of infiltration from both right and left, and I raised the issue of Tory infiltration first. By many weeks. No-one wanted to talk about it then. If Harman really meant, " "Anyone – providing they are on the electoral register – can become a registered supporter,..." why did they then reject thousands who did apply? They did not want people with different values to those of Labour. Not right wing, not far right and not far left. Those when identified were rejected, so not open to anyone. |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: DMcG Date: 12 Sep 15 - 04:11 AM Given that we only half to wait two and a half hours, is it sensible to discuss this just now? If the leader is chosen by all three groups (long term members, affiliates and registered) then whether and to what extent the £3-ers contained the more extreme left and right is utterly irrelevant. If Corbyn doesn't win - and that's possible if the first round is not enough on its own - it is irrelevant. It is only if the decision comes down to the £3 group that matters. In the meantime the discussion is not about the leadership but which mud cater said what when, which is a bit boring as we can all read it for ourselves if we care enough. I suggest people have patience to see what happens at 11:30 BST |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: GUEST Date: 12 Sep 15 - 04:14 AM While discussing the possible news this morning with my missus I heard myself say that thanks to Mrs T the unions are not as frightening as the were back in the pre-New Labour days, so a left wing labour leader might get more support from the centre than many expect. |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: akenaton Date: 12 Sep 15 - 04:58 AM All UK politics in my lifetime have been short term and Party orientated, this game is laughingly referred to as "democracy". It will take decades for people to understand socialism, most haven't a clue and think it is about "human rights" and likewise myths in a capitalist society.....you see them on this forum. Socialism in operation, is actually about sacrifice in the common good, to create a stronger society with a healthier outlook towards ecology and economy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 12 Sep 15 - 05:08 AM Jim, Far from being concerned with the fact that the fascist British National Party has boasted that it has infiltrated the Labour Party. you have attempted to suppress that information Completely made up and untrue. I find the fact most interesting and believable. I obviously was already aware of Tory infiltration. What I objected to was you linking to the BNP web site without any warning of what the link was. I doubt I am the only person here who would not have chosen to click on it. You have no evidence whatever of left infiltration of the Labour Party yet you persist in your claims Yes I have. I have posted a Guardian report where Labour officials say it is an issue. |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: Jim Carroll Date: 12 Sep 15 - 05:42 AM Completely made up and untrue. I linked to the BNP site which carried the information - your response "Shame on you Jim." That was not an accusation carried by another paper - it was a statement by the organisation - suggesting it shouldn't be put up was suppression of that confession - interesting indeed. Warning - what warning do I need to give - it's a headed statement? You once defended one of the biggest cut'n'pastes by Bobad - five enormous pages of the stuff, taken from the extremist Muslim Watch site, demanding that we disprove anything they said and defending each claim, one by one. Bobad's links were unheaded and unattributed, yet you continued to defend them when their source was pointed out to you. "I obviously was already aware of Tory infiltration. Then why have you been condemning it instead of concentration on unsubstantiated accusations that the left has been "infiltrating" the Labour party? You made the point that other parties should not interfere "I suppose the difference was that they belonged to another party." The left have far more claim to the Labour Party, certainly than the Tories have, and for that matter, more than the present Labour Leaders have - yet you set out to claim they have "infiltrated" and ignored the Tories doing the same - and you knew about it. Perfect credentials for your ultra-rightness. Conservative intervention, egged on by The Daily Telegraph, is totally undemocratic - would you like to comment on that fact? Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: Steve Shaw Date: 12 Sep 15 - 06:12 AM And Keith, you don't know any more than anyone else the precise reasons in individual cases why some of the three-quid applicants were excluded, the odd dishonest Tory MP aside, do you? |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: akenaton Date: 12 Sep 15 - 06:13 AM Come on Jim, you know the "hard left" will have been joining in droves, what's the point of denying it? Christ, even I might consider it myself! The few Tories who have joined look on it as a bit of a joke, their votes are not going to make much difference. I doubt the BNP have many members left, so why the fuss? As noted above, membership was open to all on the electoral register. |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: Jim Carroll Date: 12 Sep 15 - 06:49 AM "Come on Jim, you know the "hard left" will have been joining in droves," As they bloody well should Following Blair's swinging the party to the extreme right and then involving Britain in a gulf war on the basis of lies and ignoring mass demonstrations, real socialists (not your sort) left the party in droves - it was argued that they should have stayed in and fought, but they decided that The Labour Party no longer represented socialism. The Labour Party was set up, largely by the Trades Union Movement, to defend workers rights - those principles were betrayed. It is only right that now there are signs of a leader who just might put the Labour party back on track, they should return to THEIR PARTY /font> and try and pull the country back from what it has been made by a combination of New Labour. Conservative and Liberal Democratic policies. It is not infiltration to try and win back the party from those who have usurped it. "Hard Left" is a bogeyman phrase invented by the press to smear decent, dedicated people (it is little different from the term "ultra-left", invented by the Stalinists in the fifties) - it doesn't surprise me in the least that you should use it. "I doubt the BNP have many members left, so why the fuss?" I have no interest in the BNP - I am interested in the fact that Keith condemned my exposing its tactics in relation to the Labour Party election. The Tories did not join it "as a bit of a joke" - it was a deliberate campaign mounted by The Daily Telegraph - please avail yourself of the readily available evidence of this fact. DAILY TELEGRAPH CAMPAIGN Wake up Ake - it's all happening!! Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 12 Sep 15 - 07:40 AM I linked to the BNP site which carried the information - your response "Shame on you Jim." Yes. Shame on you for tricking us into clicking on the BNP ewbsite. I never advocate suppression of facts. You could have just told us about it and offered the link if not believed. I would have believed it at once. Conservative intervention, egged on by The Daily Telegraph, is totally undemocratic - would you like to comment on that fact? I agree with you, but how stupid of Labour to give them the opportunity. The left have far more claim to the Labour Party, certainly than the Tories have They both voted for the same candidate, so what difference?! Perfect credentials for your ultra-rightness. Lying about me again Jim. I have never expressed a far right view because I have none. Why do you do it? Steve, And Keith, you don't know any more than anyone else the precise reasons in individual cases why some of the three-quid applicants were excluded, the odd dishonest Tory MP aside, do you? It is common knowledge. They trawled their canvas records and the internet to see if they had supported other parties or attacked Labour values. It has been widely reported. |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 12 Sep 15 - 07:45 AM Jim, he fact that Keith condemned my exposing its tactics in relation to the Labour Party election. This has become another lie you tell about me. I was happy for you to post the information. It was of interest and relevant to the discussion. I condemned you for tricking me and who knows how many others into clicking on the BNP website. It was stupidly irresponsible of you not to warn us what the link would lead us to. |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: Jim Carroll Date: 12 Sep 15 - 08:21 AM "It was stupidly irresponsible of you not to warn us what the link would lead us to." And it is extremely stupid of you to come up with such an crassly stupid excuse for your protecting B.N.P. Give it a rest Keith - you've gone and put your foot in it again. "Lying about me again Jim." You've been given examples of which sites you've defended I'd leave it there, if I were you Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 12 Sep 15 - 08:31 AM And it is extremely stupid of you to come up with such an crassly stupid excuse for your protecting B.N.P. Protecting how? You could have just told us about it. I would be perfectly happy for you to tell us anything you ever find out about that unpleasant organisation, and have no objection to being informed about them joining in the infiltration. JUST DON'T POST LINKS TO BNP WITHOUT WARNING US WHAT THEY ARE!!!!! I would not choose to link to them on my home computer. You tricked me into doing just that, and how many others? |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 12 Sep 15 - 08:56 AM Perhaps I am the only one who clicks on Jim's links. Steve, did you click? Do you have any concerns about linking to the BNP website? |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: Jim Carroll Date: 12 Sep 15 - 09:20 AM "You could have just told us about it." Could have told you whqat - the article is identified as a BNP statement - are you suggesting it should have come with a health warning Did your extreme Islamophobic statements come with such a warning - they weren't even identified, yet you still defended them? "Do you have any concerns about linking to the BNP website?" Why on earth should anybody refuse to see what your lot are up to? Leave it Keith - you're cover is blown Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: GUEST Date: 12 Sep 15 - 09:25 AM From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 12 Sep 15 - 08:56 AM Perhaps I am the only one who clicks on Jim's links. Perhaps you are the only one complaining. Jim was talking about right wing parties trying to rig the vote in an attempt to make Labour un-electable and linked to the BNP site as a perfect example. Looking at an example of their tactics will not contaminate you unless you chose to follow them,read it as another reason not to support them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: GUEST,Derrick Date: 12 Sep 15 - 09:30 AM GUEST Date: 12 Sep 15 - 09:25 AM That was me |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: Steve Shaw Date: 12 Sep 15 - 09:50 AM As a matter of fact I did click on it. As far as I know it hasn't resulted in the end of the world. I'm puzzled by your indignation. What's yer beef, Keef? |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 12 Sep 15 - 09:57 AM Derrick, are you happy to click on the BNP website? If Jim had not hidden the address I would certainly have avoided it. He could have just told us about their machinations, and given us the choice of linking to them. That story hardly needed corroboration anyway. Jim, you are again resorting to vindictive, malicious lying about me. You can never just debate the issues. I have no far right or Islamophobic views. If you are not just a sleazy liar, produce an example that I have posted. Good luck with that, liar. |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: Jim Carroll Date: 12 Sep 15 - 09:58 AM "I'm puzzled by your indignation. I doubt if anybody is Steve - drowning man and straws and all that. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 12 Sep 15 - 10:00 AM Steve, I think it likely they harvest info. from visitors, and I do not want to help their hit rate. |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: GUEST,Derrick Date: 12 Sep 15 - 12:23 PM Keith, I only looked to see what the fuss was about,if you had not made such a big deal of the issue I would not have bothered. Am I ashamed NO I am well over the age of consent and do not need your approval thank you. All reading it did was remind me how nasty some folk are. |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 12 Sep 15 - 12:57 PM No-one said you should be ashamed of anything Derrick. Why that comment? I gather that you and Steve are happy to be directed to a BNP site without warning. OK. Perhaps it is just me, but I would have liked to have had the choice. Of course you do not need approval Derrick, but I would prefer to be told what I was linking to. I never disguise my links. |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 12 Sep 15 - 01:07 PM Why link to a BNP site? The ancient Chinese warrior Sun Tzu taught his men to "know your enemy" before going into battle. For if "you know your enemy and know yourself," he wrote, "you need not fear the result of a hundred battles." But, Sun Tzu warned, "If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat." |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: Jim Carroll Date: 12 Sep 15 - 01:21 PM "I never disguise my links." Nobody has ever attempted to disguise links Keith and you are wriggling like a worm to suggest anybody ever has. On numerous occasions you have put up unattributed quotes, and I, among many others, have traced them and pointed out where they came from. Your stupid explanation of your objecting to my putting up a quote from the B.N.P is now getting beyond a joke. Are you totally incapable of accepting that you made a blunder in doing so? You were caught out targeting the left for allegedly "entryism" into the Labour Party and when it was pointed out to you that the Conservatives were being organised to do just that, you panicked. If you knew they were, you were stupid to just target the left - it shows your right wing bias. Personally, I think you were caught on the wrong foot and grabbed the first thing you thought of. You say that infiltration into another party is of no interest to you, which, as far as I am concerned, is an indication of your contempt for democracy in Britain - everybody should be interested when the electoral process is being interfered with. I suggest you stop this nowe, before you dig yourself any deeper into the mess than you already have If you reall were concerned about linking extremist threads, you would not have supported Bobad's huge Muslim Watch links the way you did When in a hole - stop digging Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: GUEST Date: 12 Sep 15 - 01:41 PM No-one said you should be ashamed of anything Derrick. Why that comment? In response to your question "Derrick, are you happy to click on the BNP website? I took that to be a criticism of my action implying looking at a BNP was questionable behaviour. Clicking on the link whether or not the destination is given is the only way to see what the site says. If you have not seen it you are not qualified to comment, believing it must be bad just because the BNP authored the site is presumptuous. I simply cannot see why you are so annoyed you were not prewarned. |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 12 Sep 15 - 03:34 PM Jim, You were caught out targeting the left for allegedly "entryism" into the Labour Party and when it was pointed out to you that the Conservatives were being organised to do just that, you panicked I was the first person to report that Tories were voting for Corbyn, long before entryism by the far left was referred to. That makes nonsense of your silly accusation. you were stupid to just target the left I targeted neither. No-one was interested in one and it finished. It was other people who kept the other going. None of this is an issue for me. I just find it interesting On numerous occasions you have put up unattributed quotes, and I, among many others, have traced them Easy. Just Google the text to see where it came from. There was no way of knowing where your disguised link would lead. Guest Derrick, it seems it is just me who objects to being linked to racist organisations. Sorry I raised the issue. |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: Steve Shaw Date: 12 Sep 15 - 06:54 PM So what "info" could they "harvest" from me that they couldn't harvest from reading Mudcat or TheSession or half a dozen other sites I visit? Or the electoral register? Give over, Keith. You may go around watching your back all the time but I'd rather enjoy life. And I'm controversial and have been for yonks. And I only ever use my real name. So far, so good! |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: GUEST,HiLo Date: 13 Sep 15 - 12:55 AM Controversial ? How so ? |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: Jim Carroll Date: 13 Sep 15 - 03:15 AM "Easy. Just Google the text to see where it came from." You pathetically tried to make an issue out of my putting up a BNP statement boasting to have infiltrated the Labour Party - you didn't even have toGoogle4 it - it was self identified - stop wriggling, you're on the hook. You defended pages and pages of claims from the extremist racist 'Muslim Watch' - lie down, your dead. Tou targeted and persistently pursued (claims only of) left entryism into The Labour party and ignored the fact that the Tories were doing it - "nobody was interested" does't hack it - if entryism concerned you, the fact that the Tories were doing it openly in a campaign let by the Daily Telegraph should have outraged you - understandably it didn't because it got in the way of your one-man campaign - lie down, your dead. If it doesn't interest you tha you are uninterested in democracy in Britain - we already knew that. Nobody but an idiot objects to linking to racist organisations unless it is in support of those organisations - if you chosse to ignore what those organisations are saying you have no way of knowing what they are saying. You are still trying to use this lame excuse to defend your blunder. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 13 Sep 15 - 04:14 AM Steve, I meant cookies and IP info. I gather that no-one else thinks there is a risk. Also they will use hit rate as a measure of support. I would just prefer to give them a wide birth, but clearly that is just me. Jim, it was self identified - stop wriggling, It was not. There was no way of knowing what you were linking to. Tou targeted and persistently pursued (claims only of) left entryism into The Labour party and ignored the fact that the Tories were doing it Not true. I referred to both, and Tories first. One I was asked for evidence, then more evidence, and one was ignored. You defended pages and pages of claims from the extremist racist 'Muslim Watch' That is a lie. I never defended it or any other site, but I remember the incident. Someone posted a list of killings that probably came from that site. Like you I was suspicious of it, although I remembered some of the incidents making the news. I made a random selection of ones I did not know of and checked them out. I am sure you did the same. Neither of us, nor anyone else, was able to find a single false entry. That was a fact, and stating it is not defending the website. Once again Jim, you accuse me of all sorts of shit instead of discussing the issues. You always make it about me. Please stop. |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: Steve Shaw Date: 13 Sep 15 - 07:07 AM Can you tell us when or where they brag about their hit-rate? |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: Jim Carroll Date: 13 Sep 15 - 08:01 AM "Someone posted a list of killings that probably came from that site." Bobad - did -you, knowing where it came from, defended the posting and instructed the rest of us to wade through the whole heap of shit and find anything wrong - you argumentatively defended the first dozen. How dare you accuse me of "disguising" an identified link, and how stupid can you get in claiming having been offended when you're happy to use such material from extremist sources when it suits you. I'l bet you're "sorry you raised the issue" - another fine mess you've got yourself into". When will you ever learn? Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 13 Sep 15 - 09:09 AM Steve, Can you tell us when or where they brag about their hit-rate? No. Sorry. They may not have anything to brag about anyway, but I imagine most sites rate themselves by hits. Jim, use such material from extremist sources when it suits you. I never have. I did not use the one in question. I just looked for fakery, as I'm sure you and others did. instructed the rest of us to wade through the whole heap of shit and find anything wrong He did not even ask anyone to do that. I was just suspicious, as you were. |