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BS: Conservatives at Mudcat
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Subject: BS: Conservatives at Mudcat From: Joe Offer Date: 17 Sep 15 - 01:26 AM I don't know how long a question like this can be discussed at Mudcat without the thread needing to be closed ot stop the chaos, but I thought I'd give it a try. In the thread on Why Middle Class People Play Music, Steve Shaw said the following:
And an unnamed Guest replied:
I think I can count Mudcat right-wingers on the fingers of one hand. I guess that is "disproportionate." In most places, one would expect far closer to fifty percent instead of less than one percent. But that's not really a topic for a music thread. Maybe you could post that question in a BS thread, Steve, and see if the discussion could be civil. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives at Mudcat From: Joe Offer Date: 17 Sep 15 - 01:38 AM I suppose the definition of "right-winger" is a relative thing. I think of myself as a moderate liberal. I'm a pacifist, anti-gun, against the death penalty, and I support most social justice causes. But around here, there are times I feel that my support of Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama and that nice Tony Blair, make some people here think of me as a fascist. Oh, and I question the morality of both abortion and gay marriage, although I firmly believe that both should be legal. Oh, yes, and I go to church, which some people think to be categorically horrible. So, am I one of those "right wingers" Steve Shaw is talking about? In the county where I live, I'm known for writing letters to the editor supporting the cause of homeless people - and some people get frighteningly angry about my letters. Those are the people I consider right wingers. What, then, am I? And, for that matter, do I not deserve to be here at Mudcat? Of people who post here regularly, I would consider Pete From Seven Stars link and probably Guest from Sanity to be conservative - and Bearded Bruce, but he hardly posts any more. Keith A says some things that would be considered conservative, and some not. Same with Akenaton. So, that's five - and none of them are the rabid, hateful conservatives I encounter where I live. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives at Mudcat From: DMcG Date: 17 Sep 15 - 02:40 AM A small handful seems about the right number to me as well, though I would add a few more. But as always it is more complicated than that. I consider myself to be left of centre. But in the not too distant past I have voted for Conservative, Liberal and Labour. Having said that it is also not really accurate to consider me a floating voter either. In the case of the Tory, for example, in Tony Blair's first season my local MP was Labour and he voted along with the party on every single issue: I may as well have elected a rubber stamp for all the difference it made. The Tory he had replaced was on the centrist side and had proven to himself to be active, concerned about and generally involved in the constituency both as MP before Blair and as an ex-MP after. Also as an MP he had shown himself generally loyal to his party but voting against them on some issues, demonstrating some independence of thought. So I was left with having to decide between them and on balance I went with him. And that illustrates the problem, really. Overall, a person's centre of gravity, as it were, may be to the left or right, but anyone can be Left or Right on an individual issue like those you have named, and when that topic is under discussion they may get called left or right wing in a way that does not match their centre of gravity. The only solution - exactly like the 'what is folk? question really - is to recognise left/right is a convenient label for some purposes, but to be aware of its limitations and to try not to let a label 'frame' your perceptions. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives at Mudcat From: Joe Offer Date: 17 Sep 15 - 03:16 AM I agree, DMcG. Most of us humans don't have the clarity of vision of those on the extremes, and we have an annoying tendency to see both sides of most arguments. That makes us much harder to define and to pigeonhole. If people want to know what we think, they have to listen to us instead of merely consulting the label they've branded us with. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives at Mudcat From: Richard Bridge Date: 17 Sep 15 - 03:33 AM There are not all that many of the lunatic right here - maybe ten I see frequently. I include gun-nuts in this category. Then there are a few g-d-botherers and they don't always overlap. But there are quite a lot of those who look a bit right-ish to me (although some of them call themselves left) - but then I am very left, happy to be so, and convinced of the moral rectitude of left leaning. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives at Mudcat From: The Sandman Date: 17 Sep 15 - 03:48 AM I notice rudeness and intolerance from people of all political persuasions on this site, some left and some right. quite frankly they are boring |
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Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives at Mudcat From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 17 Sep 15 - 04:20 AM I am often referred to as right wing and even far right by Steve and others. I am not at all, but they are seeing me from their position on the extreme left, so most people appear right wing to them. I think that explains Steve's observation Joe. I am in fact centre/centre right which is the majority position in England. I used to vote labour when "that nice Mr. Blair" was in charge. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives at Mudcat From: Mr Red Date: 17 Sep 15 - 04:21 AM how many lunatics that can see the wider picture? happy to be considered a loony if that's the definition of an observant intellectual with enough logic to avoid calling the opinionated, lunatics. n.b. Mr Red's political hue is that of pure unadulterated water (where found), think seeing clearly. Mono-chromatically, he sports sartorial affectation. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives at Mudcat From: GUEST,Allan Conn Date: 17 Sep 15 - 04:23 AM "In most places, one would expect far closer to fifty percent instead of less than one percent." Mind I suppose it depends what country you are in etc but here in the UK I would expect a forum where a lot of the posters are folk musicians to be mostly left leaning. Certainly wouldn't expect it to be 50/50. Likewise here in Scotland folk singers not only tend to be overwhelmingly left leaning but they tend to be overwhelmingly Yes leaning too. That is both on a national and local basis. And it wasn't just based on place of birth. The vast bulk of the English born folkies living and performing locally were left leaning and Yes leaning also. The local audiences on the other hand were far more mixed re the referendum. I always wonder do left leaning (and here in Scotland Yes leaning) musos tend to be more drawn to folk music - or do people getting involved in the scene get influenced by the existing lean of the scene? Though I agree there is no need for the insults etc. My own wife is a Tory voter (through nurture in SE England) and she was actively working for Better Together during the referendum. The other side have different political views but it doesn't make them evil or worthy of insults etc. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives at Mudcat From: GUEST,HiLo Date: 17 Sep 15 - 04:53 AM I believe that many people who are middle of the road or slightly right are a low percentage here because of the intolerant way they are treated. If one happens to be person of faith , a Tory, pro Israel or the least bit doubtful about in controlled immigration, you are branded as a racist, an islamaphobe or worse. The so called "left" narrow minded always claim the moral ground. See mr. Bridges post above. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives at Mudcat From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 17 Sep 15 - 04:56 AM HiLo has it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives at Mudcat From: GUEST,Grishka Date: 17 Sep 15 - 05:02 AM The notions of conservatism and right-wing comprise a large number of entirely different mindsets, some of which are mutually exclusive. The literal meaning of conservative is of course to conserve an existing condition, but the interpretation is always very selective. More precise notions are "nationalist", "free enterprise", "theocratic", "law-and-order", "ethnocentric" etc. At Mudcat, the "free enterprise" faction seems to be particularly quiet (as far as I have read), although "pro-gun" may be viewed as a variant of it. Left-wing is slightly better defined. Basically there are two flavours of it: individualist and collective. Many issues are shared by self-proclaimed conservatives and leftists. In practical politics, the consequences of any principal mindset are far from clear - see for example the recent discussions about Greece. A particular problem at Mudcat is that the loudest debaters do not reply to their opponents' messages carefully, and thus miss the opportunity to convince any undecided reader. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives at Mudcat From: Joe Offer Date: 17 Sep 15 - 05:11 AM Hi, Allan - yes, I would expect folk musicians in most countries to be "left-leaning," and I think that's the case here. But I hardly think that there's reason to complain that Mudcat is aiding and abetting right-wing extremists. Conservatives are a scarce commodity in these here parts. HiLo - the people on both the extreme left and the extreme right always claim the moral high ground. Both extremes are incapable of questioning themselves. They are also unable to see value in any point of view that is not their own. That's the nature of extremism. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives at Mudcat From: GUEST,HiLo Date: 17 Sep 15 - 05:23 AM I agree with you Joe. Both do claim the moral high ground. But here on this forum it seems to be far more pronounced on the left. I often refrain from commenting on certain threads because I know in advance that I will be accused of all sorts of distasteful thing and I can pretty much know who will say what. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives at Mudcat From: Jim Carroll Date: 17 Sep 15 - 06:04 AM "I am in fact centre/centre right which is the majority position in England." No the case, no matter how many times you claim it. The majority of people don't vote, so we have no idea where they stand politically The majority of those who do vote don't support right policies, even following the result of the last election, there is an indication of a significantly large SWING TO THE LEFT in Britain. As for Mudcatter's - whatever their descriptions of themselves, their claims make quite clear their political allegiances - 'by your deeds shall ye be known' My favorite toast - recorded from Walter Pardon. "Here's to those who love us, and to those who don't love us. To those who love us, may God bless them; to those who don't love us, may he break their anklebones so we can spot them". What has happened of late is that some of the most extreme posters have resorted to distancing themselves from their own extremism by blaming someone else "I only believe it because ***** said it was true, or alternatively claiming to have no opinion - "I'm not an expert - historian - I don't understand these things but this is what the majority of historians... whatever" - adding dishonest cowardice to their extremism. jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives at Mudcat From: GUEST,Grishka Date: 17 Sep 15 - 06:16 AM I would expect folk musicians in most countries to be "left-leaning"In my opinion, performing traditional music is a conservative activity per se, and "in most countries" and ethnic contexts, it is firmly connected with the dominating forces. Only in societies where "folk music" is defined to be the music of a lower class that collectively struggles for more recognition, performing it may be viewed as a statement in favour of that struggle. The champions of that movement, such as Pete Seeger, are so well known worldwide that we may tend to overestimate their share in the whole scene. In the USA, you can of course simply call all non-leftist music "Country" etc. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives at Mudcat From: Big Al Whittle Date: 17 Sep 15 - 06:41 AM i suppose by alligning yourself with 'tradition' you are declaring an interest in conservatism. in truth , i imagine we all want to conserve some things about our way of life, and we are all conservatives in that sense. the dissension arrives when it comes to deciding what we want to conserve. i was glad to see the back of trouser turn ups. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives at Mudcat From: Steve Shaw Date: 17 Sep 15 - 06:49 AM Gosh, this is a right old can I' worms. First of all, I think we should leave the word extremist out of this as it will do nothing to enhance the conversation. Second, the naming of names in a topic of this kind throws up a quite interesting anomaly. If I declare that I think Richard, Jim, Shimrod, Kevin and me good self are undoubted lefties, not only would any of them not think of objecting (except, maybe, to complain that I've mentioned them in a thread that they may not have posted in yet), but there'll be others who may feel cheated that I've left 'em out. On the other hand, isn't it amazing that people who proudly proclaim their undoubted right-wing views here hate to be actually called right-wing. There's no badge of honour in it, is there (discuss...)? To clear up one or two things. Being opposed to abortion doesn't make you right-wing. Campaigning to have it banned or restricted is right-wing behaviour. Standing outside an abortion clinic harassing women and their doctors is positively fascist. Being religious does not make you right-wing. Telling lies to your children about God and making them go to faith schools when there are other choices is right-wing. Forcing people to pay homage to your particular version of God under pain of mutilation or death is fascist. There are degrees. Believing in the continued existence of the state of Israel now that it's here is not right-wing. That happens to be my view and I don't think I'm that right-wing. Justifying the repressive treatment meted out to Palestinians by the Israeli regime (note careful inclusion of the word regime) is definitely right-wing. That is not to say that there should be no criticism of the other side, by the way. Building a wall that divides farms and families, stealing the best land, imprisoning a million and a half people in the world's biggest slum and making Arabs wait at road blocks for three days is fascistic behaviour. Which is not the same as calling people fascists. Clement Atlee was left-wing, but on his watch gay men were harassed and imprisoned and he didn't do much about it. If that were the case today, I should think we'd be calling him pretty right-wing owing to his presiding over an intolerable situation. These things have a habit of evolving. Speaking of intolerance, well some of the right-wing behaviour I've exemplified is itself intolerance personified. Refuting the work of scientists, even insulting their good name, in favour of creationism is intolerance personified. Not permitting criticism of the Israeli regimes behaviour under pain of being called antisemitic is intolerance personified. Odd how intolerance can be defended by calling its critics intolerant. Take this, for example: I believe that many people who are middle of the road or slightly right are a low percentage here because of the intolerant way they are treated. If one happens to be person of faith , a Tory, pro Israel or the least bit doubtful about in controlled immigration, you are branded as a racist, an islamaphobe or worse. People here who are Tories, pro-Israel, religious are not subjected to intolerant ripostes because they are those things. They may well be if their posts display intolerance, which they frequently do. I've tried to resist naming names, but just read almost any post of Teribus's. He's a right-wing, pro-Israel Tory by any measure. And his post will call at least one person who disagrees with him, often more than one, a name, and will be peppered with gratuitous sarcasm (yes I know he thinks we deserve it, but we don't all go around shouting stuff at people all day that they deserve, do we?). The above quoted poster is being a little defensive, not to say selective, methinks. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives at Mudcat From: Steve Shaw Date: 17 Sep 15 - 06:58 AM "In my opinion, performing traditional music is a conservative activity per se, and "in most countries" and ethnic contexts, it is firmly connected with the dominating forces. Only in societies where "folk music" is defined to be the music of a lower class that collectively struggles for more recognition, performing it may be viewed as a statement in favour of that struggle." I think you're being a bit theoretical. Folk music is pretty good at evolving. Song tunes change, words are added, lost or altered, even parodied. Go to an Irish session as a stranger and you wouldn't believe how nearly all the tunes are different to "your version". There can be a bit of a rebellious, even subversive streak in folk music. In some ways, it's what keeps it vibrant. The best folk traditions may be a bit cONSERVATIVE (I did that on purpose), but not all that reactionary. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives at Mudcat From: The Sandman Date: 17 Sep 15 - 08:06 AM This thread concists of posts by timewasters and diddypols, for god sakjeplay some music or learn a new song |
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Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives at Mudcat From: GUEST,HiLo Date: 17 Sep 15 - 08:22 AM No Steve , I am not the least defensive. I am just very tired of the intolerance, on both sides. I find many of your posts to be irrelevant as you seem not to read the posts of others with any degree of insight. You appear to be, I could be wrong, more interested in arguing than in hearing other points of view. This is also true of some of those with whom you argue incessantly. Oddly, you argue in the name of "Tolerance". You are not alone in this and I am sure you will point out that the rest of us need saving from bigots. Very high minded indeed. You say there is "no badge of merit in being right wing", how bloody pompous can you get. It is not your "left wing" views that I find tedious, in fact I agree with many of them, but it is your arrogant dismissal of those who disagree with you that prompts me to discount you as a debater. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives at Mudcat From: Jim Carroll Date: 17 Sep 15 - 08:54 AM "This thread concists of posts by timewasters and diddypols, for god sakjeplay some music or learn a new song It does now. If you don't wish to take part - don't Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives at Mudcat From: Steve Shaw Date: 17 Sep 15 - 09:40 AM Not very fair, HiLo. I spend quite a lot of time on some of my posts and I respond point by point to many. I disagree with your take on a few things but I'm not going to get emotional about it. I tend to choose my words carefully, but if that comes across as high-minded well so be it. It's an internet forum, not life. If you care to take me on over particular issues rather than coming out with an unfocused rant, I could discuss stuff with you. Over to you. Or over and out if you like. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives at Mudcat From: GUEST,HiLo Date: 17 Sep 15 - 10:35 AM Unfocused rant, that isn't my department Steve. I do realize it is an internet forum. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives at Mudcat From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker Date: 17 Sep 15 - 11:38 AM I'll come back and read this thread properly when I have more time... But just to dash off a quick thought... When me and my mates were in our late teens & early 20s, and becoming politicised and involved in various progressive/alternative grass-roots causes & actions.. Our enemy was quite clearly signposted as Thatcher & Mary Whitehouse & Religions. Our default position was not to trust any politicians - though our well informed O & A level and Degree studies in govt + politics & ideology inclined us more towards a serious consideration of marxism / socialism rather than the more fashionable trendy sloganeering punk rock badge pose of anarchy... Now i'm entering my late 50's it aint easy trying to remember what I used to think and who I used to be.... I still regard myself as some sort of vague moderate centre to far militant lefty [depending on the issues] But I've been battered and distracted for so long with family, career, health and money problems.. and so often betrayed by employers... that it's now difficult remaining focused and aware of current affairs and the dire shenanigans of party politics...??? It's like I somehow need to intellectually reorientate myself with the long forgotten complex ideas of my distant past in order to get back up to date and functional with my future.....??????????????????? [anyone got a spare DeLorean time machine...??? 😜 ] Maybe why I suddenly find Corbyn an intriguing prospect and possible wake up call back to action.........??? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives at Mudcat From: Steve Shaw Date: 17 Sep 15 - 12:02 PM "Unfocused rant, that isn't my department Steve." No Steve , I am not the least defensive. I am just very tired of the intolerance, on both sides. I find many of your posts to be irrelevant as you seem not to read the posts of others with any degree of insight. You appear to be, I could be wrong, more interested in arguing than in hearing other points of view. This is also true of some of those with whom you argue incessantly. Oddly, you argue in the name of "Tolerance". You are not alone in this and I am sure you will point out that the rest of us need saving from bigots. Very high minded indeed. You say there is "no badge of merit in being right wing", how bloody pompous can you get. It is not your "left wing" views that I find tedious, in fact I agree with many of them, but it is your arrogant dismissal of those who disagree with you that prompts me to discount you as a debater. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives at Mudcat From: GUEST,puinkfolkrocker Date: 17 Sep 15 - 12:48 PM [post delayed due to mudcat choking and spluttering in and out of life all afternoon....] ... and regarding the thread title "Conservatives at Mudcat"... Probaly explains why I still get the odd subconcsious urge to get a bit bolshie & sarcastic when occasionally confronting the daft prejudiced diatribes from some of our venerable petty reactionaries at mudcat... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives at Mudcat From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 17 Sep 15 - 12:56 PM Joe Offer: "Of people who post here regularly, I would consider Pete From Seven Stars link and probably Guest from Sanity to be conservative..." Hardly...my refutations usually go after the corruption on BOTH sides. Being as Mudcat is so chuck full of so=called activists' for the 'so-called left', it may appear that I'm 'conservative'...not so... but very opposed to any and all those who promote false talking points, and banter them around,as IF they were true!! ..and how many times should I remind you, that I am NOT with the party...but with the band! GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives at Mudcat From: GUEST,Shimrod Date: 17 Sep 15 - 01:26 PM I have to say that the older I get, the more impatient I get with political ideologies - of both Right and Left. Well, actually, I despise Right-wing ideology because its usually just greed, selfishness, self-interest, xenophobia and snobbery dressed up as politics. Nevertheless, existing political ideologies seem to me to belong to the 19th century - and we desperately need a politics for the 21st century. Such a politics would have to be evidence-based. You only have to look at the dreadful shambles in the Middle East, and the current refugee crisis, to realise what an absolute shambles our reactive, 'gut instinct', ideology-driven politicians are currently making of the world. Basically, our 'civilisation' is heading for imminent environmental melt-down and contemporary politicians are only now dimly aware that the environment exists - not good enough!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives at Mudcat From: akenaton Date: 17 Sep 15 - 01:30 PM The problem is the confusion of political and social/ moral issues. I have been on the extreme left politically most of my life, yet socially and morally I am a confirmed conservative...and most of the people I have met on the left fringes are the same. The social radicals are usually soft left "liberals" who support the status quo politically, but want to re-define institutions and large swathes of society to give the appearance of meaningful change. Homosexual "marriage being a typical example. Something which will affect only a tiny number in a group who don't want it, while the real economic inequality continues apace. On Folk musicians, I have found most of the successful ones to be grasping penny pinchers the worst type of "right wingers" around. Also, from a politically left wing perspective the "right" or right of centre here are much more tolerant of different ideas than most of the "liberals" The abuse of people of faith and any one who questions their views on controversial subjects is certainly illiberal. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives at Mudcat From: GUEST,Grishka Date: 17 Sep 15 - 01:46 PM There can be a bit of a rebellious, even subversive streak in folk musicWe all know that, Steve, with the emphasis on can. Some ethnicities have the feeling that their culture is being oppressed, so that merely performing it amounts to an act of opposition - not necessarily left-wing, though. Also, it is always attractive for rebels to make use of folk-like songwriting - again not necessarily left-wing ones. Still, most traditional music cultures of the world form strong alliances with their establishment, so that they are functionally conservative even if their governments claims to be left-wing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives at Mudcat From: GUEST,Allan Conn Date: 17 Sep 15 - 02:39 PM I don't quite get the idea that the "centre/centre right" is the majority position in England. When was the last time there were more English Tory voters than combined Labour and Lib Dem voters? Not saying that all Labour and Lib Dem voters are centre/centre left but just can't see how the original assertion could be proved. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives at Mudcat From: GUEST,Allan Conn Date: 17 Sep 15 - 02:48 PM Again though Grishka I wasn't talking about folk music worldwide so you may well be right there. However in the UK the folk music world does tend to be left leaning and here in Scotland it is left leaning and Yes leaning. Fair point of course is that Scotland is left of centre leaning so the folk music world is firstly likely to mirror that - but it seems more uniformly left than society in general. I simply can't think of a Scottish folk singer who is openly in favour of the Tories and the union. There may be some but I don't know of any. Whereas I could list many who are openly supporters of either the SNP, the Greens or Labour and who support independence. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives at Mudcat From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link Date: 17 Sep 15 - 03:04 PM As usual, anyone who has a different POV is considered intolerant.....especially if it is a biblical POv! Esp by Steve. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives at Mudcat From: The Sandman Date: 17 Sep 15 - 03:16 PM Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives at Mudcat From: GUEST,HiLo - PM Date: 17 Sep 15 - 08:22 AM " No Steve , I am not the least defensive. I am just very tired of the intolerance, on both sides. I find many of your posts to be irrelevant as you seem not to read the posts of others with any degree of insight. You appear to be, I could be wrong, more interested in arguing than in hearing other points of view. This is also true of some of those with whom you argue incessantly. Oddly, you argue in the name of "Tolerance". You are not alone in this and I am sure you will point out that the rest of us need saving from bigots. Very high minded indeed. You say there is "no badge of merit in being right wing", how bloody pompous can you get. It is not your "left wing" views that I find tedious, in fact I agree with many of them, but it is your arrogant dismissal of those who disagree with you that prompts me to discount you as a debater." excellent post |
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Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives at Mudcat From: Jim Carroll Date: 17 Sep 15 - 03:21 PM The left , both in Britain and the U.S., put folk song into the public gaze In Britain, the earlist moves were by the Workers Music Association, who inspired Topic Records and MacColl and Lloyd. Both Ewan and Bert took their leads from Alan Lomax, who was on the run from MacCarthy's witch-hunt. Immediately, they recognised folk music as the creative art of 'the common people' (rotten term, but it sums up who I referring to). When I came on the scene at the beginning of the sixties, the clubs were full of working class youngsters - I (an apprentice of the docks) went to my first club with mate, who was a porter at 'Paddy's Market'. The scene was pretty much the same at The Singers Club and in Birmingham and Manchester then. Maccoll commented on the time he aand Peggy was booked at Doncaster - the room was full of steelworkers - "all shouting, because they spent their entire working day in the noise of steel-mill machinery. Those of us who got involved in research continued to recognise it as 'people's music' - though it is noticeable that, since the 'anything goes' attitude has grown in the clubs, coupled with the risde in the number of singers who associate singing with being paid, the more conservative (with a small "c") and middle-class the audiences have become. I'n not making a general rule for this - many clubs I continued to go to still attracted working class audiences. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives at Mudcat From: Mo the caller Date: 17 Sep 15 - 03:58 PM Steve said " Being religious does not make you right-wing. Telling lies to your children about God and making them go to faith schools when there are other choices is right-wing." But what is a lie? And what else can you tell your children than what you believe? Can a statement be untrue without being a lie? I suppose my definition would be a lie is saying something you believe to be untrue. From my atheist PoV faith schools are unhelpful and divisive, but from the PoV of some believers "a Godless education is no education" - I forget which history of education textbook I read that quote in, 50 years ago. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives at Mudcat From: GUEST Date: 17 Sep 15 - 04:14 PM The left , both in Britain and the U.S., put folk song into the public gaze Yes, Jim and maybe vice versa. The earliest things in the media that stick in my mind as being either 'left' (from the workers perspective at least) or folk were that TV series (from the BBC in Manchester?), that were some sort of spin off from the Radio Ballads I think. About 1960. Introduced by Brian Redhead - the first regional accent I recall on TV. Three firsts in one programme. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives at Mudcat From: The Sandman Date: 17 Sep 15 - 04:55 PM I am indebted to all other club organisers, and people like MacColl and Lloyd and Davenport and others who helped to establish the network of clubs. the sad thing is that much of the industry that Jim talks about has been ecimated by governments particularly mrs Thatcher, MUCH INDUSTRY HAS BEEN MOVED TO THIRD WORLD COUNTRIES, so it is hardly surprising if there are fewer working class people in folk clubs, because there are fewer people working, fewer people manufacturing, and less money to spend. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives at Mudcat From: Joe Offer Date: 17 Sep 15 - 05:08 PM Mr. Shaw says: Telling lies to your children about God and making them go to faith schools when there are other choices is right-wing. Well, darn. I thought I was telling my kids the truth about God when I raised them in the religious tradition that I hold dear. I was careful to explain that the Bible is not a historic or scientific document, although it is a profoundly valuable document of faith. I think my kids' Catholic school teachers did their best to be honest in their teaching, too. We taught them about pacifism and about the immorality of capital punishment, and about our obligation to the poor and oppressed. We taught them to question everything, and to think for themselves. And I let my kids know that they had the option to attend state-funded schools if they wished. I raised my children the way I thought best, and I did my best to be honest with them and not to force them to believe anything. I suppose that won't satisfy Mr. Shaw, though. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives at Mudcat From: DMcG Date: 17 Sep 15 - 05:24 PM While I agree with you, Joe, I can see why people might claim that is illiberal. But it seems at least as illiberal for someone else to say you can't bring a child up as you think best, providing it is within the laws of the country. And I can't see any reason to regard it as right wing in any meaningful sense. Pleny of right wing people have no religion and plenty of religious people are very left of centre, just as there are plenty of religious people who are very right of centre. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives at Mudcat From: Steve Shaw Date: 17 Sep 15 - 05:45 PM "Being religious does not make you right-wing. Telling lies to your children about God and making them go to faith schools when there are other choices is right-wing." But what is a lie? And what else can you tell your children than what you believe? It's a lie if you tell your children that God is true, and if you compound that lie by making your children attend church and school where they are told that they should accept the truth of the gospels without question. "Without question" is crucial. Joe Offer, who gets very defensive with me whenever I raise religion, says he allows his kids to question faith at every turn. That's exactly what a man of faith should be doing. Unfortunately, looking at the whole world of religion, his is a minority position. You should not be telling your children that beliefs that can't be supported by evidence are so true that you should be living your life according to them. Education is about giving children the skills to find knowledge, not have it poured over them, and to be critical of any assertion they hear that lacks evidence. Now if you, Joe or anyone else thinks that's unreasonable, please tell me how. I have never really changed my position on this. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives at Mudcat From: Steve Shaw Date: 17 Sep 15 - 05:50 PM DMcG, I have not conflated right-wingery with religious belief per se. I tried to make that clear in my long post. Please reread. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives at Mudcat From: brashley46 Date: 17 Sep 15 - 05:51 PM Meh. I'm a Trotskyist m'self, rather close to Van Ronk's position in the seventies, so almost all of you lot are to my right ... but the folk chorus I sing in has members of all political persuasions in the Canadian political context from left-Liberals to, well, me. I'm here for the music. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives at Mudcat From: DMcG Date: 17 Sep 15 - 05:58 PM In the phrase of yours that people have highlighted you specifically say sending children to religious schools is right wing, Steve. It is that conflation I disagree with. But we don't want to get into the whole religious stuff for the 10,000th time, so I won't be going further with this aspect. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives at Mudcat From: GUEST Date: 17 Sep 15 - 06:17 PM Jesus was a lefty - would he have survived 1950s McCarthyism ? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives at Mudcat From: Joe Offer Date: 17 Sep 15 - 06:21 PM I dunno, Steve. It still smells like rigid intolerance to me. If I believe that God, or at least my perception of God, is true - why wouldn't I tell my children what I think to be true? And if I live within a tradition that is sacred and dear to me, why shouldn't I raise my children in that tradition? And rather than "true," I think I would prefer to say that my perception of God is "of value." I look on my religious tradition as a rich and diverse context for exploration of the mysteries that surround me - life, death, love, peace, eternity, whatever. I'm not so sure that "truth" is all that important to me. I'd rather explore possibilities and perspectives. I'm not all that sure there is a "truth" at the end of my road - and if it's there, where would I go then? When I reach my destination, I'd like to choose another road to explore. Steve, I suppose you have a right to your perspective, but to me your perspective seems stiflingly negative - not to mention insulting and demeaning toward those who choose a faith tradition as a way of life. Maybe you've had a bad experience with religion in your life - many people do. But that doesn't mean that ALL religious tradition is deserving of condemnation. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives at Mudcat From: Steve Shaw Date: 17 Sep 15 - 06:21 PM Actually, I was at pains to say that I was referring to people who make their children go to faith schools when there are other choices. It's in my post. I also said that being religious does not make you right-wing. Do be fair, please. You usually are. As usual, anyone who has a different POV is considered intolerant.....especially if it is a biblical POv! Esp by Steve. I don't give a stuff about your biblical point of view, but I do give a stuff about your extreme intolerance of genuine scientific endeavour. You are an extremist evolution denier, clear to all because you have read stuff on fundamentalist creationist websites as opposed to thinking for yourself. On your own, you are completely incapable of holding down an argument, yet you feel free to insult hard-working scientists at every turn. And one day I may tell you what I *really* think of your severely intolerant attitude. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives at Mudcat From: GUEST,Shimrod Date: 17 Sep 15 - 06:35 PM "But what is a lie? And what else can you tell your children than what you believe?" You cannot elevate a 'belief' to a 'truth' unless you can back up your belief with evidence. I agree with Steve, it is wrong to teach children that unsubstantiated beliefs are truths. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Conservatives at Mudcat From: Steve Shaw Date: 17 Sep 15 - 06:40 PM "If I believe that God, or at least my perception of God, is true - why wouldn't I tell my children what I think to be true? " Exactly. Stop being so disingenuous about what I'm saying. We all tell our children what we THINK to be true. But we should be telling our children that what we THINK is a mixture of our upbringing and the function of the accident of our birth. What you THINK is largely because you were born in the United States of America, which happens to have five percent of the world's population, and because you just happened to have Catholic come-froms. Out there is another ninety-five percent, most of whom are not Catholic and many of whom have either a different version of God to yours or no God at all. As long as you put your version of truth in that context to your children, and encourage them to think outside the rather confined box not of your own making, you are a man of integrity, despite the fact that your faith is basically a huge delusion. From what you tell me, that's exactly what you do, and, believe it or not, I can respect that. |